I feel some sort of testing is essential since we are in the business of education. 

Sometimes students develop an attachment to a teacher or tutor that allows for a comfortable feeling that they will perceive as a "benefit" from the service. Those students might actually be in need of mental health services or case management of some type that could be better provided by another agency..

Just a thought...

Karen
Ft. Wayne, IN

-----Original Message-----
From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Donna Chambers
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 4:46 PM
To: The Assessment Discussion List
Subject: [Assessment 539] Re: peep?

Katrina,

You are not alone and it is a catch 22.  I know that the  test/data doesn't 
often show the accurate picture.  However, in reality, we are forced to deal 
with standardized tests as the main measurement tool. Truth be told, adult 
literacy learners are often not good traditional testers.  What can we do? 
Donna Chambers

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Katrina Hinson" <khinson at future-gate.com>
To: <assessment at nifl.gov>
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 12:36 PM
Subject: [Assessment 536] Re: peep?



> I'm in the same boat as Donna below. Normally I try to keep up with the 

> discussions but I've been silent on the lists I'm on lately simply because 

> I wear way too many hats at the moment and it's difficult to keep up with 

> sheer volume of emails generated sometimes.  Likewise, I have my own 

> 'peep' to add to the discussion:

>

> We use TABE (9 &  10) at the moment, for ABE/GED students and CASAS for 

> ESL and Family Literacy and Comp. Ed..  One problem occurs when students 

> move between programs. Students tested via CASAS, are not given a math 

> component - EVER - just Reading and Listening and those in Family Literacy 

> are only given Reading. They may or may not ever have a math placement 

> score.  Additionally, the program I'm in places great emphasis on these 

> scores due to the nature of the funding - so much so that paperwork now 

> has to go through multiple hands to ensure that it's all correctly filled 

> in to ensure that the numbers are all accurate. Another area where there 

> is a problem is the move from those students tested on TABE 8 to TABE 9. 

> We saw a dramatic decline in test scores and were left asking if it was 

> accurate? We asked why the huge drop? Had these students regressed? Had 

> the test not been administered properly before hand? Had they memorized 

> (which I do agree is a major issue with standa!

> rdized testing) the test?

>

> There were no easy answers and we're still seeing scores all over the 

> place sometimes.

>

> Instructors here and administrators are very much tied to the "tests"  as 

> if that is the only measure. I sometimes feel like a lone voice saying 

> "Yes, BUT..." at a lot of meetings...or trying to explain that the data 

> isn't always a valid reflection of student ability.  I'm always met with 

> the same response - the tests need to match student ability to ensure 

> funding.

>

> It's a catch 22 for instructors. We're caught in a loop of having to meet 

> performance measures that may or may not truly reflect student ability yet 

> the work a student does that shows his or her ability is often ignored.

>

> Regards,

> Katrina Hinson

>

>>>> "Donna Chambers" <donnaedp at cox.net> 10/24/06 8:40 AM >>>

> Wow!  Like others, I lose track of the discussion because  I am just too 

> busy to keep up. There is so much work to be done in thinking through this 

> issue, but in the meantime, we must keep up with our duties in the 

> classroom and running our programs .  Now I just heard on the news that 

> sitting at a computer for hours at a time can be addictive and  may 

> require  medical and psychiatric treatment   Here is my quick "peep" 

> because I don't have the time for another addiction.

>

> I agree with both Nancy and Mary Jane.  The testing requirement for 

> government funding is not enough and sometimes not appropriate. I have 

> spent my career working with competency based assessment and/or authentic 

> assessment and so that is what I inherently use to see if a learner 

> understands something.  By testing this way, I am also challenging the 

> thinking skills of the learner which I believe is critical in the process 

> for the adult.

>

> Lately I have been doing a bit of informal experimentation.  Here is what 

> I find more times than not. The learner knows the skill because it was 

> demonstrated to me  when asked to verbally to solve the problem and 

> explain the solution.  Yet the learner got the item wrong on the  paper 

> and pencil, multiple choice test.   The learner demonstrates an ability to 

> do a problem and apply the skill in several examples and then gets the 

> same type of problem wrong when asked to do it on a test .  Pre test 

> scores do not always correlate with what I believe a learner knows and yet 

> such we are asked to place such importance on them.  Sometimes even scores 

> go down between pre and post testing. I do believe this begs the question, 

> "What is happening here?"  It is definitely worth considering more varied 

> assessment methods.  We are working with adults that may be test anxious 

> and certainly language plays a huge role in being able to answer the 

> question correctly.  This is not to say that th!

> e tests we use are not valid, but getting a question right more 

> circumstances than knowledge or skill, especially for adults. How do we 

> know when they know it, be able to retain it, and to apply it again in 

> other circumstances? "

>

> This is more than a "peep" ,but  I feel this topic is critical to our 

> programs and the whole "accountability/assessment" issue in education 

> today.

>

> Donna Chambers

>

> ----- Original Message ----- 

>  From: Mary Jane Jerde

>  To: sfallsliteracy at yahoo.com ; The Assessment Discussion List

>  Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 6:49 PM

>  Subject: [Assessment 534] Re: peep?

>

>

>  Hi,

>

>  The testing that is required for government funding tends to fly in the 

> face of some serious principles for assessment: never depend on one tool, 

> don't allow the students to become familiar with a specific test form, use 

> a variety of testing methods, numbers do not give a full, realistic 

> assessment. CASAS does do several things fairly well: easy training, easy 

> scoring, easy make up. How many students know Form 54 by sheer repetition? 

> It's always a shock when they hit Form 56.

>

>  I use BEST Plus with CASAS. It's not perfect either, but I have the 

> "luxury" of a trained assessor willing to come on site to give it. Between 

> the two, I'm getting a better picture and more options for reporting.

>

>  Mary Jane Jerde

>  Howard Community College

>  Columbia, MD

>

>

>

>  Nancy Hansen <sfallsliteracy at yahoo.com> wrote:

>    Marie -

>

>    Without a peep .... I have been lurking ... every once in a while but 

> not regularly on this thread.  Part of the reason I haven't replied is the 

> emails that were posted were so loooong.  I felt it would require research 

> to read thoroughly and respond, so I didn't.  And I'm as always busy with 

> many projects as the only full-time paid staff.

>

>    It's not that I am not interested personally, but via my scanning the 

> posts I feel The Movement is not taking into consideration one (of a 

> couple) very important factors:  Some adult learners cannot commit to the 

> kind of time that many of you speak about.  That means their time with 

> their study is also very precious even though elongated.  If testing takes 

> away that time, it would be resented.

>

>    Ours is an adult literacy program driven by volunteer instructors.  The 

> focus of the materials includes periodic check-ups built into the lessons. 

> (Note:  Not called Tests.)  However, I sense that by your colleagues' 

> standards my program would be deemed ineffective.  You know .... the 

> learners aren't gaining a grade level every year.  Quite frankly the 

> learners don't *care* about that form of measurement.

>

>    So I lurk.  I feel, No. 2, The System places too *little* importance on 

> what it is that the adult learner has brought with them as goals in their 

> need to read, write and spell better.  It cannot be measured in many cases 

> ... except, perhaps, in smiles, self-confidence and improved worth. 

> *That* our learners *do* treasure!  How do members of the adult education 

> system intend those skill development factors to be measured?  Learner 

> Portfolios are part of *our* system, yet unacceptable to the NRS. It used 

> to be that the check-up scores counted.  But no longer.

>

>    Until the answers are clear, this agency director will remain on the 

> perimeters of the assessment discussion ... and *consequently* the agency 

> will continue without funding that is tied to a grade level increase 

> requirement.  The kicker is: The learners *like* what they are receiving 

> and that matters more.  At least to me.

>

>    Nancy Hansen

>    Executive Director

>    Sioux Falls Area Literacy Council

>    Sioux Falls, SD

>

>    Marie Cora <marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com> wrote:

>      Dear colleagues,

>

>      Are you out there?  Is this a bad time for a discussion?  Is the 

> topic not of interest?

>

>      Aside from Virginia�s post last week, I haven�t heard from 

> any of the 550 subscribers to the List.  I�m assuming that the topic 

> (Measuring Education Gains in Adult Literacy, 10/17 and 10/18) is of 

> interest.  But you need to let me know if it is or not.  I generally gauge 

> interest based on Subscriber responsese topic is not hot (which surprises 

> me).

>

>      Are there other topics you�d prefer to engage in?  What are 

> they?  The purpose of this List is to provide a forum for discussion that 

> goes well beyond your program�s walls, so if I�m not hitting on 

> the right stuff, I really do need to hear from you.  Membership here 

> continues to climb, but you are all very silent.

>

>      I really want to hear your thoughts and I want to know how this List 

> can serve you well.  Please let me know.  Feel free to respond to the 

> discussion on Measuring Gains, but also, feel free to start your own 

> discussion topic, or feel free to send your thoughts to the List or to me 

> personally regarding other discussions that you would like to see happen 

> � and I�ll make them happen.

>

>      I value and appreciate your membership highly � but a Discussion 

> List is only as good as the discussions that occur.  If you�ve never 

> posted and that makes you a bit reticent, feel free to send me your post 

> and I can do a couple of things like help you compose your message, or I 

> can post your message for you anonymously.  The important thing is for 

> your voices to be heard.

>

>      Thanks!

>

>      marie

>

>      Marie Cora

>      marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com

>      NIFL Assessment Discussion List Moderator

>      http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment

>      Coordinator, LINCS Assessment Special Collection

>      http://literacy.kent.edu/Midwest/assessment/

>

>

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