Well, I had a similar gut reaction:  that the viewpoint was a valid one but totally didn't apply in this situation, since the guy in the skit was *not* teaching mathl.  Method in that situation doesn't matter. To actually solve the problem, the sensible thing to do would be to get twenty-five objects (or the money itself) and physically, concretely split it into five - except, of course, that "solving the problem" was not the desired outcome.  Having the audience be amused at the interaction for assorted reasons (some of which would be insulting to Kentuckians) was.
  On the other hand, if students were in a math class, the solution could take many different turns - from "no, you have to line the numbers up right" to going back and building a better understanding of place value. And yes, you'd use different approaches for adults than K-12ers. 


Susan Jones
Academic Development Specialist
Academic Development Center
Parkland College
Champaign, IL  61821
sujones at parkland.edu
Webmastress,
http://www.resourceroom.net
http://bicyclecu.blogspot.com



>>> "Burkett, Barry" <Barry.Burkett at Franklin.kyschools.us> 6/27/2007 10:33 AM >>>

I would also argue that there is a fundamental difference between adult education and K-12 education, hence the struggle to achieve literacy and numeracy among adults.
 
It seems that the Freirian belief of teaching for the world is not central to the K-12 model, which is why students sometimes ask, "When am I going to use this in my life?" 
 
Looking at Cindy Marston's husbands response it is a legitimate, reasoned response that does not apply to adult ed where current literature speaks to creating learning circles where each individual has valid input, versus how much an individual has learned on their own.  In this new framework of adult ed there is an "un-schooling" of sorts because ABE students are used to the K-12 system that they grew up in.
 
Am I making sense, or just opening a can of worms that will revolve around semantics?
 
 

________________________________

From: technology-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Cindy Marston
Sent: Wed 6/27/2007 10:36 AM
To: The Technology and Literacy Discussion List
Subject: [Technology 1133] Re: FW: Kentucky Math


Hi all,
 
I've been "lurking" and enjoying the conversations for quite some time.  But my husband is a high school math teacher (and I had shared the KY Math clip with him) and so I asked what he thought about Tina's question.  Here is his response:
 
What is the purpose of the problem being solved?  Often the end result isn't the most important thing, it's the process.  Why does the teacher want a particular method?  If it's because that's the only method they know or are comfortable with, that's a lousy reason.  But sometimes that method may be what's important.  For example, on my tests I often say:  Solve using the methods of calculus, because I want to see that they've learned calculus, not that they can get the correct answer from some shortcut they learned in Physics.
 
Students should be encouraged to be independent and creative problem-solvers, not just algorithm memorizers.  They should see that often there are several ways of solving a problem and the best way depends on the particular problem.  (Maybe the teacher wants to make sure they know several methods and asked them to use a particular method on this problem.)  Also, it's not uncommon for a student not to get credit for a right answer if they don't show any work, or if they use guess and check to arrive at the answer.
 
I guess I can sum this up by saying, yes, in general teachers should accept (and encourage) well thought-out and explained or justified answers instead of saying, nope, that's not my method.  However, there could also be a legitimate reason not to accept something different.  Make sense?
 
Knowing what I know now (coming from training adults in a business environment to working with teachers and students in their use of technology in a school environment and being a parent), I'd be inclined to have a conversation with the teacher - to ask what the purpose was and either get a sense of peace for myself (and daughter) or at least give the teacher an awareness of other ways of approaching teaching.
 
Thanks to all for the thoughtful questions and the creative and inspiring ideas!
 

Cindy Marston

Academic Technology Coordinator

The Principia

St. Louis, MO 63131

314-514-3137

cindy.marston at principia.edu 

________________________________

From: technology-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:technology-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Tina_Luffman at yc.edu 
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 11:19 AM
To: The Technology and Literacy Discussion List
Subject: [Technology 1125] Re: FW: Kentucky Math


Hi NIFL List,
 
I have a math question for you. Susan's question triggered a recent memory for me, so I am coming to you for some perspective. My daughter was taking an Algebra class with a teacher who was patient and really explained things well. As luck would have it, he got offered a six figure engineering job and left mid semester. The replacement showed what I considered to be rigidity in methodology because she marked students' work wrong if not done the way she taught the math regardless of the fact that the students were getting the right answer. 
 
Is this practice of forcing a method widely practiced in math classes around the country? It seems that different people see different ways of solving a problem, math or otherwise, and as long as their logic achieves a correct answer, that should be sufficient. Does respecting difference in students' math processes and understanding of a means for resolution seem unreasonable for us as educators, or do you think that learning to follow a certain process is a good discipline for students, which I am sure it is, and that it is better to do as this teacher had done. 
 
I am sure there is no right answer, but I am just feeling out your unbiased opinion as mine is obviously biased. :) To me if a student understands a concept of math, it really doesn't matter what tool s/he takes out of the math toolbox to solve it, and that creativity in math should be encouraged.
 
Tina
 
Tina Luffman
Coordinator, Developmental Education
Verde Valley Campus
928-634-6544
tina_luffman at yc.edu 


-----technology-bounces at nifl.gov wrote: -----



	To: The Technology and Literacy Discussion List <technology at nifl.gov>
	From: nancy.friday at alphaplus.ca 
	Sent by: technology-bounces at nifl.gov 
	Date: 06/26/2007 07:01AM
	Subject: [Technology 1121] Re: FW: Kentucky Math
	
	
	
	Hi Susan,
	
	"how many people could explain what was mathematically wrong with their
	procedure and explain it without saying "because that isn't how you do it" ?
	
	I like the points you make here and the reverse analysis.  For a higher end
	numeracy class, this could be a very good activity.  When you know one way to
	solve something, and have to disect why another way may not work, that's when
	the real thinking work begins - the reverse analysis followed by an explanation.
	Sounds a lot like what teaching is - answering all those questions students
	have.
	
	I also think it applies to policy and political analysis - one way to solve a
	problem is presented and everyone in opposition strives to state why that way
	won't work.
	
	Thanks for this.  I may just tackle that reverse analysis with the video and see
	if I am up to the challenge!
	
	Nancy
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	"Susan Jones" <SUJones at parkland.edu> on 06/25/2007 12:47:51 PM
	
	Please respond to The Technology and Literacy Discussion List
	     <technology at nifl.gov>
	                                                                               
	                                                                               
	                                                                               
	
	
	                                                             
	                                                             
	                                                             
	To:      "The Technology and Literacy Discussion List"       
	         <technology at nifl.gov>                               
	                                                             
	cc:      (bcc: Nancy Friday)                                 
	                                                             
	                                                             
	                                                             
	Subject: [Technology 1111]   Re: FW: Kentucky Math           
	                                                             
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	If they had the 25 cents and were holding it, they'd be more likely to "get"
	that it was a nickel apiece because they would have to get the change to split
	it up.
	
	It has finally ceased to amaze me when explanations of math end up being further
	manipulation of symbols - often in the language the confused person doesn't
	understand.  I'd have whipped out twenty five pennies from the bottom of my
	purse and said "split 'em up into five groups."  Of course, that wasn't the
	point of the comedy :=)
	
	Now, another question is:  how many people could explain what was mathematically
	wrong with their procedure and explain it without saying "because that isn't how
	you do it" ?   The people who could would be more likely to be able to deal with
	a different culture's methods.
	
	
	Susan Jones
	Academic Development Specialist
	Academic Development Center
	Parkland College
	Champaign, IL  61821
	sujones at parkland.edu 
	Webmastress,
	http://www.resourceroom.net <http://www.resourceroom.net/> 
	http://bicyclecu.blogspot.com <http://bicyclecu.blogspot.com/> 
	
	
	>>> <nancy.friday at alphaplus.ca> 6/15/2007 1:25 PM >>>
	
	
	Hi,
	
	This video has circulated in Canada as well, because I have seen it before.
	Interesting, I can't recall if when I received it if had the Kentucky label
	attached.  If it had, I would have ignored that part and just focused on the
	video.  I love the creativity in the solutions (even though they aren't
	correct).  I like the fact that the man and woman are confident in the face of
	the man in the suit to stand up and assert their perspective and apply the
	knowledge that they have (because they do know adding and multiplying).  I
	really like the fact that the couple reject the system and do things their own
	way.
	
	My hope would be from a learning perspective that the couple would be open to
	seeing that their reasoning isn't correct.  If they were holding the 25 cents
	and had to divide it, they might re-think their reasoning.  Which makes me this
	as perhaps a power issue - who holds the money?
	
	This clip also make me think about an experience I had when I worked front line
	in a community-based literacy program here in Toronto and was engaged in
	training new literacy volunteer tutors.  We were showing some ways to approach
	math - particularly long division.  Normally in tutor training we would go into
	the details of long division, but we had a cultural point to make.  Many
	students and volunteers in our program had come to Canada from a range of
	Caribbean countries.   Tutors who went through the Canadian school system
	learned long division just one way and taught it that way.  Tutors and students
	from the Caribbean, I believe an example came from Guyana, learned long division
	another way.  When the Guyanese way was demonstrated, the Canadian-born tutors
	were clearly shocked.  The point was to take cues from the students in terms of
	observing how they approach tasks, be aware and respectful of cultures not your
	own, and be open to learning in new ways.  Neither way of approaching long
	division was wrong - both came to the correct answer - but forcing someone to
	learn a way that doesn't come from their experience or previous knowledge, can
	be counter productive.
	
	I know that's not the case in this video - but the clip did take me back to that
	long division place.
	
	Nancy
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	"Burkett, Barry" <Barry.Burkett at Franklin.kyschools.us> on 06/15/2007 09:33:33 AM
	
	Please respond to The Technology and Literacy Discussion List
	     <technology at nifl.gov>
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	To:      "The Technology and Literacy Discussion List"
	         <technology at nifl.gov>, "The Poverty, Race,   Women
	         and Literacy Discussion List"
	         <povertyracewomen at nifl.gov>
	
	cc:      (bcc: Nancy Friday)
	
	
	
	Subject: [Technology 1065]  FW: Kentucky Math
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	Hey guys,
	
	I know we focus on literacy, but recently I have been putting time into
	researching numeracy as well.  A student forwarded me this clip, it is
	from a B&W television show, but I do not know its name.
	
	2 things to focus on, first the creative way to solve the problem and
	second the comments that came along with the e-mail.
	
	On another path, the self-deprecating way these Kentuckians pass the
	video around because it is funny, even though the tag is intentionally
	labeled to degrade us, and give those outside of Kentucky a negative
	view of Kentuckians... why do we intentionally set ourselves up to be
	labeled ignorant?
	
	And one more thing to notice, how dissimilar are the "incorrect"
	mathemateers from our ABE students?  In my experience it seems that it
	is not  that the majority of students do not know how to apply
	information they know, it is that apply it incorrectly... early
	misconceptions in both math and reading become amplified and detrimental
	to the adult as they move through life.
	
	Your thoughts?
	
	Barry Burkett, Adult Educator
	Thorn Hill Learning Center
	Frankfort, KY
	502.223.3110
	
	"Computers are incredibly fast, accurate and stupid; humans are
	incredibly slow, inaccurate and brilliant; together they are powerful
	beyond imagination" - Albert Einstein
	
	"While adult education should be viewed as a right, not as a stigmatized
	second-chance program for those who have failed or dropped from out
	school stystems, at the present time lifelong learning is only being
	given lip service" (Askov, 2000, p. 259)
	
	
	________________________________
	
	From: sammdean40 at aol.com [mailto:sammdean40 at aol.com] 
	Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 1:46 PM
	To: SDBROWN412 at aol.com; redneckgirl060 at yahoo.com; mooremn774 at aol.com;
	janglin216 at yahoo.com; brock1050 at hotmail.com; deseree.thompson at ky.gov;
	Burkett, Barry; shoppergirl at myway.com; vsw74 at yahoo.com 
	Subject: Fwd: Kentucky Math
	
	
	
	
	
	-----Original Message-----
	From: GINA MARIE
	To: suzanne ; pam bardis ; sammdean40 at aol.com 
	Sent: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 1:13 pm
	Subject: Fwd: FW: Kentucky Math
	
	
	Ha Ha that's the way to count it huh?
	
	Note: forwarded message attached.
	________________________________
	
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	Attached Message
	From:      Linville, Janice M (EPSB)
	To:   Collins, Amber (KYTC) ; cntrygyrl20 at aol.com;
	littlegurl1994 at aol.com; Sparks, Betty (KYTC) ; Krider, Bill E (DJJ) ;
	Butler, Bobbie (AGR) ; cocoasugar07 at bored.com; Graham, Carla (EPSB) ;
	Carla.Rice at education.ky.gov; Ritchey, Cecilia ; cinperry73 at yahoo.com;
	Meriwether, Connie S (KSP) ; parker_cl at bellsouth.net;
	mttgvt at bellsouth.net; dwaits at fewpb.net; eddie.davis at kysu.edu;
	ggmarie66 at yahoo.com; Lathrem, Jennifer C (OET-FK) ;
	lil_sister_dynamite at yahoo.com; Williams, Latasha (CHFS/DDS/LVSL) ;
	nplgirl at bellsouth.net; mpayne at kheaa.com; ypatann at yahoo.com; Cornett,
	Rhonda (KYTC) ; Lover Boy ; Sandy Kiser ; sannlinville at yahoo.com; Byrns,
	Scott (KYTC) ; Shelby Keith ; Salchli, Sherrie (CHFS OIG Fraud) ;
	frogie6 at aol.com; tammylee16 at hotmail.com 
	Subject:   FW: Kentucky Math
	Date:      Thu, 14 Jun 2007 13:00:01 -0400
	This is too funny!  I know two kids that would try to pull this off at
	school.
	________________________________
	
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