Kearney,

I do not dispute that debating or the practice of rhetoric can improve one's
ability to reason. I also believe that all rhetorical techniques, include
hyperbole, allegory and even sarcasm have their place. Defending one's
position, countering these techniques, and using them, is a good exercize in
reasoning, even though the assumptions are usually arrived at before the
"critical thinking" begins.

Unfortunately, the recent trend in educational circles seems to favour
"dialoguing", whereby we pretend to agree with whatever is said, and look
for points that we have in common, and should avoid trying to persuade
anyone of one's point of view. This leads to a sterile discussion. It only
works if everyone actually does agree, or if contrary views can be
suppressed..

Here, on this forum, it has appeared to me that "critical thinking" has been
discussed in the sense that English teachers are looking for ways to help
their students to challenge basic their assumptions as part of their English
learning, and at a very early stage in their English learning. I feel that
this is unrealistic. Try persuading a religious person to challenge the
basic assumptions of their religion and see how far you get.

Rhetoric, is a valuable and an advanced skill, and can only be taught after
one has a sufficient range of vocabulary to use it effectively.

I am of the opinion that beginner ESL learners should be allowed to listen
to the language and try to enjoy it, with little requirement to state what
their assumptions are on anything.

Steve

On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 2:11 PM, Kearney Lykins <kearney_lykins at yahoo.com>
wrote:


> Steve,

>

>

>

> In defense of the study of rhetoric, it is precisely because it is the one

> field of study that openly acknowledges and examines the relationship

> between emotions and persuasion, that it is especially valuable in helping

> one to be a more critical (wiser) thinker. Yes, this knowledge can be used

> perniciously, but that is a question of ethics, and indeed is a concern for

> every field of study.

>

>

>

> Anyone who has ever participated in forensic speech (debate club) can

> surely attest to how taking "the other side" of an argument improves one's

> critical thinking abilities.

>

>

>

> Regards,

>

>

>

> Kearney

>

>

>

>

>  ----- Original Message ----

> From: Steve Kaufmann <steve at thelinguist.com>

> To: The Adult Literacy Professional Development Discussion List <

> professionaldevelopment at nifl.gov>

> Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 2:52:42 PM

> Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 2266] Re: Whatdo

> wemeanbystudentinvolvement and critical thinking?

>

> Bonnie,

>

> I agree with you. Rhetoric as practiced by the ancients is a good

> discipline. It helps you to organize your thoughts in order to persuade

> others. This forces you to think about logical connections between ideas. It

> does not make you more open minded. Most of us arrive at our points of view

> emotionally, rather than through some clear "critical thinking" path. The

> skills of rhetoric are useful tools for persuading others of our beliefs. I

> do not think that most English teachers, myself included, can teach our

> learners to think, critically or otherwise, nor is it our mandate.

> Here is what I said recently in reply to a questioner at one of my

> youtubes.

>  1) You can teach methods of organizing your thoughts in order to express

> them convincingly. I don't believe ESL teachers can teach how to think, how

> to be open to new ideas, how to question assumptions, without imposing their

> own assumptions. We arrive at our views based more on emotion than logic,

> and use logic to justify these views.

> 2)Language is part of your culture and affects your world view. Each

> successive language you learn opens your mind to new perspectives.

>

> <http://ca.youtube.com/video_response_upload?v=to9asMOReyY>

>

>

>

> ----------------------------------------------------

> National Institute for Literacy

> Adult Literacy Professional Development mailing list

> professionaldevelopment at nifl.gov

>

> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/professionaldevelopment

>

> Professional Development section of the Adult Literacy Education Wiki

>

> http://wiki.literacytent.org/index.php/Adult_Literacy_Professional_Development

>




-- 
Steve Kaufmann
www.lingq.com
1-604-922-8514
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://www.nifl.gov/pipermail/professionaldevelopment/attachments/20080711/0ffaab99/attachment.html