Bonnie,

I agree with you. Rhetoric as practiced by the ancients is a good
discipline. It helps you to organize your thoughts in order to persuade
others. This forces you to think about logical connections between ideas. It
does not make you more open minded. Most of us arrive at our points of view
emotionally, rather than through some clear "critical thinking" path. The
skills of rhetoric are useful tools for persuading others of our beliefs. I
do not think that most English teachers, myself included, can teach our
learners to think, critically or otherwise, nor is it our mandate.
Here is what I said recently in reply to a questioner at one of my youtubes.
 1) You can teach methods of organizing your thoughts in order to express
them convincingly. I don't believe ESL teachers can teach how to think, how
to be open to new ideas, how to question assumptions, without imposing their
own assumptions. We arrive at our views based more on emotion than logic,
and use logic to justify these views.
2)Language is part of your culture and affects your world view. Each
successive language you learn opens your mind to new perspectives.

<http://ca.youtube.com/video_response_upload?v=to9asMOReyY>

On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 11:06 AM, Kearney Lykins <kearney_lykins at yahoo.com>
wrote:


> "Critical thinking" is a new term for an old idea.

>

>

>

> Before it became disparaged by the modernists, "rhetoric" was not a bad

> word; it was the counterpart of dialectic and, in noble hands, was

> synonymous with "reason." In other words, rhetoric, defined as the ability

> to speak and write more effectively, also trains one to think more

> effectively. The best literature I could recommend on the topic comes from

> the rhetoricians and philosophers who explain how the ability to present a

> persuasive case to others makes one a better thinker (and a better

> person) for himself.

>

>

>

> Three classic texts to start with would be:

>

>

>

> Isocrates, "Against the Sophists"

>

> Aristotle, "The Rhetoric"

>

> Cicero (perhaps) *Ad Herennium*

>

>

>

> Again, the classic rhetoric I am recommending here should not be confused

> with the word's modern negative connotation. But mounds of wisdom have been

> dispensed on the topic of critical thinking, under a different name.

>

>

>

>

>  Kearney

>

>

>

>

>  ----- Original Message ----

> From: Bonnie Odiorne <bonniesophia at sbcglobal.net>

> To: The Adult Literacy Professional Development Discussion List <

> professionaldevelopment at nifl.gov>

> Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 1:25:16 PM

> Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 2262] Re: Whatdo

> wemeanbystudentinvolvement and critical thinking?

>

>   Andrea,

>

> You're right. I don't think anyone has. Does anyone know of anything in the

> literature that comes close, except Bloom's taxonomy, which addresses levels

> of understanding and logical manipulation, and some say creativity, as being

> the highest level rather than (I think) synthesis. I think Gardner does in

> multiple intelligences, since he talks about the intellligences as ways of

> making meaning in the world. What about Brookfield? I've read some but not

> all of that. I certainly think critical thinking can occur in all

> situations, not just those one would label as linguistic or academic. In

> fact Quinnipiac University in CT is having a conference this fall in Writing

> across the disciplines and critical thinking, since writing is rarely

> mentioned as a factor that builds thinking, when in fact it does, or can.

> The keynote speaker's topic is critical thinking as poetry, and I can see

> the point. A certain kind of "out of the box" association of different

> domains to create something new, whether it's actually a poem, or a paper,

> or a language behavior, or surviving in the world.... Any thoughts, anyone?

>

> Bonnie Odiorne, Post University

>

>

> ----- Original Message ----

> From: Andrea Wilder <andreawilder at comcast.net>

> To: The Adult Literacy Professional Development Discussion List <

> professionaldevelopment at nifl.gov>

> Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 1:06:34 PM

> Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 2261] Re: Whatdo

> wemeanbystudentinvolvement and critical thinking?

>

> Everyone--

> Have we defined "critical thinking?"  I've gone over most of the posts, and

> the authors cover a wide range of behaviors that they are calling "critical

> thinking."

>

> I, too, sometimes swallow an argument hook line and sinker.  I can get

> swept away by someone else's argument unless I have thought through the

> problem or issue very carefully--anticipating the questions or assertions

> from others.

>

> Andrea

>

>  On Jul 11, 2008, at 12:16 PM, Bonnie Odiorne wrote:

>

>  Good example, Jeff. I had a friend with dizziness and that's *exactly*what the high-priced tests and clinics told him to do. Your pose made me

> think also of those of low literacy or language ability who somehow manage

> to function quite well: they have become "survival-smart"--if there is such

> an intelligence--and taken cues from their environment to adapt their

> behaviors.

>

> Bonnie

>

> Post University

>

>

> ----- Original Message ----

> From: Alpha Computer Training and COnsulting <alphact at eastlink.ca>

> To: The Adult Literacy Professional Development Discussion List <

> professionaldevelopment at nifl.gov>

> Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 11:52:33 AM

> Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 2259] Re: Whatdo

> wemeanbystudentinvolvement and critical thinking?

>

> Hi Cynthia and Philip,

>

> Good thought provoking messages.  Your comments made me think of my wife.

> She had a dizziness problem for years that she could not seem to get fixed.

> But what she did was amazing, since I think it relates to this discussion.

> She became a master at avoiding movements that brought about her dizziness.

> She unknowingly used critical thinking to avoid her problem.  This makes me

> wonder how others unknowingly use critical thinking to avoid issues in

> their

> lives.  This could involve reading, writing and other skills necessary to

> perform tasks.  People can unknowingly, through the own critical thinking,

> get around with their skill set and function in society.  These people have

> get critical thinking skills, that have enabled them to be successful in

> areas where we could not imagine.  People need to give themselves more

> credit for what they can do than what they can not do!  It makes me wonder

> how these skills came about.

>

> Jeff Brown

> Alpha Computer Training and Consulting

> (902)956-2600

> E-mail: info at alphacomputer.ca

> www.alphacomputer.ca

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: professionaldevelopment-bounces at nifl.gov

> [mailto:professionaldevelopment-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Cynthia

> Peters

> Sent: July-11-08 11:18 AM

> To: professionaldevelopment at nifl.gov

> Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 2258] Re: Whatdo

> wemeanbystudentinvolvement and critical thinking?

>

> Philip -- I think what you're raising is important. Can you share any

> strategies you've used to help students feel comfortable expressing what

> they know about the world?

>

> Also, do you have any thoughts on how to do PD in a way that develops

> *teachers'* critical thinking skills. I do believe it's a skill for all

> of us to be honing all the time.

>

> Cynthia

>

>

> >>> "Anderson, Philip" <Philip.Anderson at fldoe.org> 07/10/08 5:09 PM >>>

> Good points, Andy.  I appreciate your response.  I think I should have

> said that their critical thinking skills lead them to hide what they

> know about the world - it is a strategy that has kept them safe in

> situations that they felt may pose danger.

>

> What I think we might need to include in PD is the fact that adult ELLs,

> no matter their level, often have good critical thinking skills.  Some

> teachers may at times perceive the low level adult ELL students as

> persons who are underdeveloped in their critical thinking skills, and

> not, as you said, the same as they are, people who do have critical

> thinking skills even though they may apply them inconsistently, and who

> could perhaps benefit from thinking in new and varied ways.

>

>

> CONTACT INFORMATION

> Philip Anderson

> Adult ESOL Program

> Florida Department of Education

> Tel (850) 245-9450

>

>

>

> Please take a few minutes to provide feedback on the quality of service

> you received from our staff. The Department of Education values your

> feedback as a customer. Commissioner of Education Dr. Eric J. Smith is

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> advance for completing the survey.

>

>

>

> http://data.fldoe.org/cs/default.cfm?staff=Philip.Anderson@fldoe.org|17:04:0<http://data.fldoe.org/cs/default.cfm?staff=Philip.Anderson@fldoe.org%7C17%3A04%3A0>

> 4%20Thu%2010%20Jul%202008

>

>

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: professionaldevelopment-bounces at nifl.gov

> [mailto:professionaldevelopment-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Andy Nash

> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 4:16 PM

> To: professionaldevelopment at nifl.gov

> Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 2253] Re: Whatdo

> wemeanbystudentinvolvement and critical thinking?

>

> Hmm, I see it more as a matter of being inconsistent in where and how we

> use those critical thinking skills. I consider myself a pretty critical

> thinker, but there are many times I'll hear someone else questioning

> something that I bought hook, line, and sinker - I didn't think at all

> critically about it. I believe that adult students are the same, which

> is why it's useful to invite critical thinking in new and varied areas.

> Andy Nash

>

> >>> "Anderson, Philip" <Philip.Anderson at fldoe.org> 07/10/08 3:46 PM >>>

>

> What I am getting at here is that it may be important to recognize that

> adult ELLs brim with critical thinking skills, but they also have

> developed a (survival?) technique for hiding these skills from those

> they perceive to be in authority and have more "school knowledge" than

> they have.  Our professional development system may need to be sure to

> prepare teachers for working successfully with these students.

>

> CONTACT INFORMATION

> Philip Anderson

> Adult ESOL Program

> Florida Department of Education

> Tel (850) 245-9450

>

>

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-- 
Steve Kaufmann
www.lingq.com
1-604-922-8514
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