For students with learning disabilities related to math, I absolutely concur with you.  But students who struggle with math are not in that situation.  What people seem to be reluctant to say is that we have students with average to above average abilities and no impairments to their learning that have not been pushed to put forth the effort to improve.  The reason that post-secondary remedial math courses are packed all over the country isn't that all of those students are learning disabled or that they are not allowed to use calculators.  By the same token, I am not asserting that they are all indolent and unwilling to work.  What I am saying is that just because someone says math is difficult does not mean they necessarily have some sort of disability or deficiency.  In a sense, we have trivialized what it means to be learning disabled and in need of accommodations.  Again, I do not hate calculators or any other form of technology.  But I do not look to explain away student struggles with math with the panacea of calculator either. 


>>> "Michael Tate" <mtate at sbctc.edu> 3/31/2008 1:56 PM >>>

If you do bring calculators into your class, you'll still have the same
amount of math to teach.  All the calculators does is compensate for
short term memory deficits and some attentional problems.

-----Original Message-----
From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov 
[mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Lance Baxter
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 10:45 AM
To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List
Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1886] Re: are we
blamingthevictim-aresponse to Lance

Michael,

The focus of my instruction is filling the academic deficits faced by my
students while still emphasizing the skills they display proficiently.
If I ascribed to your line of thinking, there would be no use for math
instruction.  We would simply need a course in calculator facilitation.
Although I have said it many times, apparently I have not made my point
explicitly.  I do not have any opposition to the use of technology to
help students.  My original point centered on the idea of "blaming the
victim."  Again, I do not blame my students, and I disagree with the
moniker of "victim."  To your point with calculators, I am disheartened
when educators equate calculators with glasses.  Glasses are designed to
correct deficits pertaining to your vision.  Calculators are designed to
eliminate the linear and critical thinking necessary to solve problems.
I am as flexible and open-minded as anyone, but I refuse to ignore my
responsibility to develop the critical thinking skills req
 uired for post-secondary education, vocational training, or simply
being a contributing member to society.  Of course it's easier to use a
calculator, but it is also easy to quit every time you face a challenge.
You might consider changing the focus of your instruction from accepting
mediocrity to striving for excellence.  Myself, and all of my students
who graduate every May, don't mind accepting challenges.  And adding 3+7
without the use of a calculator is the least of the challenges our
students face in society as a whole.


>>> "Michael Tate" <mtate at sbctc.edu> 3/31/2008 1:13 PM >>>

One element of the change process would be to eliminate rules that
prohibit the use of calculators in all teaching, learning and assessment
situations. 

We should treat ALL accommodations the way we do glasses, hearing aids,
medications that control ailments that might interfere with learning,
etc. and not pick and choose those which are restricted and those which
are universal.    

You might consider changing the focus of your instruction from math to
facilitating calculator math.

-----Original Message-----
From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov 
[mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Lance Baxter
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 7:31 AM
To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List
Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1880] Re: are we blaming
thevictim-aresponse to Lance

David,

I completely understand where you are coming from.  However, you made my
point for me.  Pocket calculators can be used on certain portions of
tests.  But what will the student use for portions of tests that do not
allow for calculator use?  I fully understand that many students have
conditions such as dyscalculia and other learning impairments.  However,
simply because a student struggles with something does not automatically
mean they have a learning disability.  Each May, I see students graduate
that swore up and down when they first met me that "things were too
hard."  Assistive technology is an excellent supplement to consistent
and quality teacher instruction.  But calculators cannot solve all of a
students problems.  I cannot tell you how many times the answer to a
problem is 40%, but students will put 0.4 because that is what the
calculator says.  


>>> "David J. Rosen" <djrosen at comcast.net> 3/31/2008 9:13 AM >>>

Lance,

As I understand what Glenn is proposing -- I am sure he'll straighten  
me out if I get it wrong -- this is not about using technology in the  
ways you list in your message. This is different. This is using  
(handheld, laptop and desktop) computers to read text out loud, to  
get meaning from text from listening to it read out loud by a  
computer the way some vision-impaired people now do. This is about  
access to the meaning contained within text, not about learning to  
read text to get the meaning. This is a social justice issue. It is  
possible that using electronic readers may also help people to  
improve their reading skills for example by gaining more background  
knowledge or learning new vocabulary, but that is not the main goal;  
the main goal is access to information.

We have learned that people who cannot do long division can, using a  
pocket calculator, do higher level mathematics. This electronic tool  
has provided access to more learning without requiring that someone  
learn (all) the basic operations before doing math thinking, before  
using math as a language. At first, some math teachers were horrified  
that students might not be learning long division. Now calculators  
are ubiquitous and frequently used on (portions of) math tests.  Many  
more students are now able to _do_ math.

Similarly, if adult new readers had handheld electronic text readers  
(that could scan any text and quickly read it out loud) they could  
learn history, science, and other adult secondary education  
subjects.  They could also try to improve their (traditional) reading  
skills, but while they were slogging through the often multi-year  
task of learning to decode text, they could also, using this  
technology, speed ahead and get meaning from text.

One question that research might help us answer is whether or not  
adult new readers who used electronic readers learned to read better  
or sooner than those who didn't. However, even if they didn't, if the  
electronic reader enabled them to learn more, to go to higher  
education or to get a better job, wouldn't that be sufficient reason  
in itself to support this idea?

David J. Rosen
djrosen at comcast.net 


On Mar 31, 2008, at 8:37 AM, Lance Baxter wrote:

> I completely agree with your premise of infusing technology into  

> the curriculum.  However, I have always viewed the use of  

> technology as a supplement to classroom instruction.  The fact  

> remains that some students complain about traditional classroom  

> instruction, and they also complain that they do not like computer  

> assisted instruction either.  Positive learning environments  

> promote student success.  Individual learning styles serve as the  

> impetus for creative and varied methods of instruction.  However,  

> students must also be taught to be successful, and one of the most  

> prevalent characteristics of successful students is active  

> participation.  The term victim carries an implicit connotation of  

> passive helplessness.  Ultimately, they are in control of their own  

> success-- we simply serve as guides and facilitators for that success.

>

>

>>>> "Glenn Young" <gyoungxlt at roadrunner.com> 3/29/2008 2:11 AM >>>

>

> Thanks for the very important reply ...

>

> And of course the students/learners have an important role and  

> important

> responsibility to "participate" in settings ... and without their  

> acceptance

> and participation .... learning goes no where ... no disagreement

>

> But the question becomes response to what?

>

> If the "instruction" and "time frame" and approach ... makes them  

> feel less

> hopeful and restricted to "kindergarten" stuff ... with out clear  

> road map

> of why and where it is going .. there will be passive and active  

> resistance

> to participation ... because ... that is how they will represent their

> limited power often what is appears to be a "powerless situation" ...

>

> Now if we really want to see excitement and participation ... what  

> I am

> saying ... lets make the approach modern .. using modern tools that  

> gives

> the person  hope and they are able to make mass rapid  

> advancements ... (not

> what the current system offers) ... and I would propose that the  

> "passive

> and active resistance of students will decrease.

>

> And of course ... this will not occur over night ... the people who  

> have

> been living chaotic lives ... it will take time to help them become  

> more

> functional ... there may be a host of attention issues that are  

> disability

> related ... and other supports need to be brought other then a  

> "good class

> room or an exciting new approach

>

> So ... I still say ... the system is not designed right ... it  

> focuses on

> one aspect of a difficult situation (reading) without addressing other

> crisis and disability .. it uses a class room model and time frames  

> and uses

> limited technology ... and we still focus the "problems" that  

> students have

> in not showing up or being disorganized and saying that is the  

> student's

> responsibility ...

>

> Lets make the system a whole lot better ... more relevant to the  

> students'

> needs and then see about participation (and with the messed up  

> lives most of

> these people have ... it will still be a problem ... but by giving  

> them the

> tools to learn far more independently ... them "showing up" in a  

> classroom

> may be less of a problem is they are using the tools to learn ...  

> after the

> kids are in bed ///or on a bus ride to the second job ... or  

> instead of

> watching TV ... etc ///

>

> Now I am not one to quote scripture very often ... but this may be  

> the case

>

> Physician, heal thyself is a proverb found in the Gospel of Luke,  

> chapter 4,

> verse 23.

>

> "And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb,  

> Physician,

> heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also  

> here in

> thy country." - King James Version

>

> The moral of the proverb is counsel to attend to one's own defects,  

> rather

> than criticizing defects in others.

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physician,_heal_thyself 

>

>

> So let's heal adult ed and then we can see if the students will  

> heal better

>

>

> Glenn Young

> CSLD

> 530 Auburn Ave

> Buffalo NY 14222

> Cell 703-864-3755

> Phone/Fax 716-882-2842

> website: glennyoungcsld.com

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov 

> [mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Lance  

> Baxter

> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 9:26 PM

> To: learningdisabilities at nifl.gov 

> Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1855] Re: are we blaming the victim?

>

> This always seems to be an interesting point of contention with those

> providing adult basic and secondary education services.  While you  

> present

> some interesting points, I cannot ascribe to your line of thinking.

> Characterizing the situation as "blaming the victim" creates a  

> pejorative

> perception of instructors, and abates any responsiblity on behalf  

> of the

> students.  First of all, according to Piaget and the constructivists,

> effective instruction involves active participation from the  

> students.  The

> instructor is the facilitator, and the students must take ownership  

> and

> assume an active role in the educational process.  Teachers are often

> castigated for being inflexible and not understanding of the needs  

> of their

> students.  However, students who consistently arrive late, need to  

> leave

> early, attend sporadically, or never bring any materials to class  

> fail to

> build any continuity or connection with the learning environment or  

> the

> content being presented.

>      According to Piaget, Vygotsky, and others who ascribe to the  

> social

> construction of knowledge, one of the ways to reduce cognitive load is

> through repetition.  Anyone who teaches math in this adult context

> understands that many of these students struggle with multiplying and

> dividing single digit numbers; yet, they are unwilling to work on  

> developing

> this skill.  They dismiss it as being "kindergarten work."  However,

> repetition with this particular skill makes the process of dealing  

> with

> fractions, decimals, and percents so much easier.

>      Please do not misconstrue this as negativity or blaming the  

> victim.

> Many of my students work hard and are willing to accept instruction.

> However, we also have students whose actual skill levels do not  

> coincide

> with their aggrandized self-perceptions.  They want a GED within a  

> week

> when, in fact, they are in need of intensive remediation in a  

> plethora of

> academic skill areas.  So while I do not feel as though I assign  

> blame to

> victims, I do firmly believe that students play an integral role in  

> their

> own learning processes, and their participation is fundamental their

> ultimate success.

>

> Lance J. Baxter

> Assistant Professor

> Daytona Beach College

>

>

>>>> "Glenn Young" <gyoungxlt at roadrunner.com> 03/27/08 2:05 PM >>>

> I disagree with the premise you are presenting ... that it's the  

> students

> "responsibility" to be ready ...

>

> What is happening is they are coming in with needs and the programs  

> are

> offering a response that does not meet their needs .... (Getting  

> the GED

> Quickly, for example) And they leave ... and then they find out  

> that they

> still need to "get the ticket" so they come back ... and still it  

> does not

> meet their needs

>

> But then they find there is no alternative ... so they come back  

> and keep

> trying for years ...

>

> This is not a positive picture ... and by saying this is the  

> "student's

> responsibility ... this is kind of like "blaming the victim"

>

> We should and can now have a system that really meets the immediate  

> needs of

> the learners and focuses on that need ... through a new model ...  

> they don't

> need to drop out time and time again ... if we give them what they  

> really

> need ... rather then only what we think we can offer ...

>

> We need to be customer focused and not blame the customer if they  

> don't like

> or want what we offer ....

>

> Glenn Young

> CSLD

> 530 Auburn Ave

> Buffalo NY 14222

> Cell 703-864-3755

> Phone/Fax 716-882-2842

> website: glennyoungcsld.com

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov 

> [mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Cindy  

> Fischer

> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 1:28 PM

> To: smcgilloway at ccbcmd.edu; learningdisabilities at nifl.gov 

> Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1829] Re: [Possible

> SPAM]Re:Controversialagain

>

> Susan,

> I agree with you 100%.  Our learners don't drop out.  On any given  

> day, we

> have two three who return after stopping out for more than 3  

> years.  Many

> have to wait until they're ready to make that commitment.  Yes, we  

> need to

> "capture their attention" within the first three weeks, or they  

> vote with

> their feet.  However, if they're not ready, nothing can change it.   

> The

> beautiful thing is that so many do return when they're ready, and  

> we're here

> waiting for them -- no questions asked.

> Cindy

>

> "If you believe in good things, you can  make them happen."

>>>> "McGilloway, Susan" <smcgilloway at ccbcmd.edu> 03/26/08 1:44 PM >>>

> I don't think we fail if a student "stops out". We have many  

> students who do

> that. "Stopping out" is one of the characteristics of adult literacy

> learners. We had one student who, after ten years in the program on  

> and off,

> finally graduated through the External Diploma Program. Sometimes  

> it is a

> question of finding the right path for the student. We encourage  

> students to

> take whichever path serves their needs. In our program we have a 75%

> retention rate. We do a great deal of professional development on  

> retention

> and have focus groups among our 100+ teachers where they share their

> strategies for retention. Also, we don't keep teachers who have poor

> retention. We serve around 1800 ABE/GED students/year and just as  

> many ESOL

> and so we see it all. Our numbers are above the national and state  

> averages.

>

> Our instructional specialist communicates with teachers through  

> email and

> phone on a daily basis, provides the latest in strategies, ideas for

> differentiated instruction, brain based learning research - literally

> anything that will promote learning and retention. Her theory is  

> "if you

> don't get their attention in the first three weeks, you lose them."  

> We have,

> for the most part, a very student centered program in which many of  

> our

> teachers use differentiated instruction. We also have paid literacy  

> aides

> and volunteers who serve as classroom assistants and individual  

> tutors who

> meet with students to supplement classroom instruction.

>

> Our twenty classroom advisors assist students with barriers that  

> prevent

> them from coming to class. We have a strong enrollment management  

> plan in

> which we offer classes at different days/time/location according to  

> the data

> from our market trends. Also, we have year round and late start  

> classes that

> serve the needs of those students who can't start right away or who  

> want to

> get started immediately. Even with all this, we have a hundred  

> students on

> our waiting list for next semester.

>

> Do we fail...absolutely not!

>

> Sue McGilloway

> Coordinator, Volunteers in Partnership

> CAFL Career Advisor

> CCBC Center for Adult and Family Literacy

> 410-285-9933 Phone

> smcgilloway at ccbcmd.edu 

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

>

> From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Trish  

> Hembrough

> Sent: Wed 3/26/2008 9:31 AM

> To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List

> Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1816] Re: [Possible

> SPAM]Re:Controversialagain

>

>

> Glenn,

> Consider yourself officially asked! I am waiting anxiously - on  

> pins and

> needles! :-)

> Trish

>

> Patricia Hembrough

> Director of Education Services

> Adult Learner Program

> Project Hope

> 550 Dudley Street

> Roxbury, MA 02119

> 617-442-1880 ext.250

> www.prohope.org <http://www.prohope.org/>

> where families move up and out of poverty

> ________________________________

>

> From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov 

> [mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Glenn  

> Young

> Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 10:07 PM

> To: 'The Learning Disabilities Discussion List'

> Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1814] Re: [Possible SPAM]

> Re:Controversialagain

>

> Geraldine ... Yes I have a proposal ... but I was waiting to see if  

> anyone

> was really paying attention .... So yes I do have you hanging to  

> see if

> people were really open to a new approach to the issue ...

>

> So ... if a few more ask ... then I present it ...

>

> Glenn Young

> CSLD

> 530 Auburn Ave

> Buffalo NY 14222

> Cell 703-864-3755

> Phone/Fax 716-882-2842

> website: glennyoungcsld.com

> ________________________________

>

> From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov 

> [mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Hayden,

> Geraldine M.

> Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 3:53 PM

> To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List

> Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1813] Re: [Possible SPAM] Re:

> Controversialagain

>

> Glenn, I always tell my students that if you have a concern or  

> complaint,

> you must offer a viable solution.  You seem to have us hanging with a

> plausible solution.  What do you have in mind?

>

> Geri Hayden

> Geraldine M. Hayden

> SPED/504 Coordinator

> Department of Correctional Education

> Fluvanna Correctional Center for Women

>

> ________________________________

>

> From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov 

> [mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Glenn  

> Young

> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 1:25 PM

> To: 'The Learning Disabilities Discussion List'

> Subject: [Possible SPAM] [LearningDisabilities 1805] Re:  

> Controversial again

> Well at least I started some interesting discussion

>

> And I must add that when we talk "on average" ... what one must  

> do ... dear

> I say it ... is not compare their local or even state programs per  

> say ...

> but to look at  the national aggravate data ....  We really can not  

> tell

> without a great deal of work... where our state or local program  

> fits along

> the "bell curve" of all ABE students or all ABE programs ... So, while

> people respond to the data I present ... based on their own  

> programs or

> states it becomes a bit more problematic in how to have the  

> discussion if

> they stand only on their local data ... and want to have a dispute  

> over a

> percentage or two ... we need to look at the issues I am raising in  

> a bit

> more of global perspective.

>

> And the key point that has been raised so far ... that we can or  

> can not

> measure success based on if students meet their goals ... well that  

> is the

> crux of my point ... If we don't meet the goals of the students ...  

> what is

> our purpose?

>

> My point on this is that it does not really matter if we think the  

> goals are

> unrealistic or not ... it is their goals and they have a reason  

> for  having

> these goals ... and a reason often imposed upon them by other  

> factors than

> the ABE system, or wishful thinking  ... such as welfare clients  

> being told

> they have 6 months to get a GED or they can't stay on welfare ...

> unrealistic or not ... the pressures upon them are real and  

> therefore their

> goals are real to them ... Also, if a person wants to get into an  

> internship

> with a labor union or a training program in the food industry  

> etc ... and

> they may require a GED ... the student's goal of getting the GED is an

> economic necessity, a great needed item ... often the key to economic

> success for that student ... and not something they can wait 3-5  

> years to

> obtain.

>

> So with these pressure, which are very real and very impacting on  

> their

> lives ... the ABE program says the goal is unrealistic ... but that  

> really

> does not matter to the person coming in, the customer ... the GED  

> is what

> they need and the GED is what is their goal ...saying or inferring  

> that the

> goal can not be met or met in a timely fashion is a major reason  

> why they

> customer will leave, and we failed them.

>

> Currently the ABE system offers an approach that provides a path to  

> the GED

> on average that will take 3-5 years (that means for some its will  

> be a lot

> faster, and for other much, much longer, if at all ... ) and  then

>

> We measure our success with a great deal of  "selection bias" ,  

> which makes

> it appear that our programs do better then they do ... (in this  

> case the

> selection is that those who stay often only need a limited amount  

> of help

> and those who don't stay are the ones who need a lot more help ... and

> therefore ... in the short run it appears out programs work for  

> many of

> those who stay ... but the selection bias is very great and we can not

> really say that the programs, on average, really work well for the  

> majority

> of those in need ...only for whom the current model fits and then  

> only some

> of them.)

>

> My point is that we should not be saying ... the goal is  

> unrealistic.  That

> does not help the client.  We need to be asking ... how can this  

> client's

> goal be reached? To meet her/his needs ... to address to their crisis

> ....And if we consistently can not meet the goal ... then is it ABE  

> that

> needs to be changing, not limiting or changing the goals of the  

> customers

> ... Can we figure out a way to not say we can't meet these much  

> needed goals

> ... but to be asking how can we "modernize" to meet the  

> goals? ....   And to

> steal a much used phrase of this political season ... yes we can!

>

> So what is the change?   For the person who asked about Orton  

> Gillingham,

> while a far more valid approach to reading for adults then the methods

> mostly used  ... that is not a solution for the short time ... it  

> still

> takes years to gain the skills ...often taking hundreds of hours  

> that builds

> on the intensity of each session (something most adults do not have  

> the time

> to do, in a concentrated time fashion.) ... and also the key  

> problem in

> passing the GED is not just reading skills but knowledge ... and so  

> we need

> a solution that focuses gaining the knowledge to pass the GED.)

>

> Therefore ... again ... I am asking ... is there a different  

> approach, a

> different paradigm in which we can meet the needs of the greater  

> amount of

> customers?  The ones who appear to have such "unrealistic" but  

> really needed

> goals. Not meeting the needs of the teachers in thinking they are  

> helping by

> increasing the literacy skills to some degree, but a different way of

> helping out customers meet their needs in reaching the much needed  

> goal of

> getting the GED, or keeping that job, or getting a new job or  

> staying on

> welfare till they can work, or getting into the apprenticeship  

> program, or

> retraining to fit the new economy  ... etc... you know, ...  what the

> customers needs.

>  ...

>

> So I do say yes ... and it is not that more costly ... and  

> considering cost

> benefit analysis ... it is far cheaper .... Then the current  

> models, and far

> more productive for the customer ... And when I give the  

> solution ... I can

> hear all the objections now ... because it is really so customer  

> focused

> (and teachers are not the customers of ABE) but I just want the  

> chance to

> prove it ...   And if we can just get a state or two to field test  

> the idea

> ... I can prove it too ... (unfortunately the big grant foundation  

> I was

> after, and had high hopes for,  just turned us down ....) anyone got a

> little funding to create a new world or opportunities?

>

> Oh yes ... the solution ... like a good cliffhanger  ... details  

> later ...

> after more response.

>

> Glenn Young

> CSLD

> 530 Auburn Ave

> Buffalo NY 14222

> Cell 703-864-3755

> Phone/Fax 716-882-2842

> website: glennyoungcsld.com

> ________________________________

>

> From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov 

> [mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Bruce C

> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 11:00 AM

> To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List

> Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1801] Re: Controversial again

>

> Dear List,

> I could write forever about this, but I'll try to be succint:

>

> First of all, adult literacy programs are working with a very  

> challenging

> population. We work with people who--for a variety of largely  

> unresearched

> reasons--did not learn to read in the ways that most people were  

> able to

> learn. It is unrealistic to expect that people who have struggled  

> all their

> lives to learn how to read would all suddenly have an easy time of  

> learning.

>

>

> Also, what are we talking about when we talk about students  

> achieving their

> ABE goals? Most people come to my program saying they want their  

> GED. Many

> take years to get that. Some don't ever get a GED, but they improve  

> their

> literacy levels. What is the impact on income, civic involvement,  

> children's

> literacy levels if someone's reading level goes up? We don't know,   

> but I

> would sure like to find out.

>

> Finally, why is it considered a problem if 20% drop out in the  

> first few

> hours? 80% stay and 20% decide they are not ready to make the  

> commitment

> now. It's like joining a gym. It's easy to sign up, but hard to  

> work out

> three times a week. Also, how many of those 20% come back later  

> when the

> time is right?

>

> from Bruce Carmel

>

> Glenn Young <gyoungxlt at roadrunner.com> wrote:

> 	OK David ... but that's just your nature

> 	

> 	Are there others?

> 	

> 	Glenn Young

> 	CSLD

> 	530 Auburn Ave

> 	Buffalo NY 14222

> 	Cell 703-864-3755

> 	Phone/Fax 716-882-2842

> 	website: glennyoungcsld.com

> 	

> 	-----Original Message-----

> 	From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov 

> 	[mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of

David J.

> Rosen

> 	Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 8:46 AM

> 	To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List

> 	Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1796] Controversial again

> 	

> 	Glenn,

> 	

> 	On Mar 23, 2008, at 10:20 PM, Glenn Young wrote:

> 	

> 	> Well . before I offer arguments on how to change this . I'd

like

> to

> 	> see if this stimulates conversation.

> 	

> 	I'm intrigued. Continue.

> 	

> 	David J. Rosen

> 	djrosen at comcast.net 

> 	

> 	On Mar 23, 2008, at 10:20 PM, Glenn Young wrote:

> 	> OK . I've been urged to come back in and raise a few

> 	> "controversial" points

> 	>

> 	>

> 	>

> 	> So . let me start by asking some questions - Leading to the

> 	> conclusion --- that we need to comprehensive reform of the ABE

> 	> system . and that reform needs to focus on the extensive use

of

> the

> 	> new technologies that are generally available to all (who can

> 	> afford them) . and these questions are:

> 	>

> 	>

> 	>

> 	> On average . how long does it take for a person entering ABE

> 	> programs to reach their goals, if they stay in the program

long

> 	> enough to reach their goals?

> 	>

> 	>

> 	>

> 	> On average . how many persons entering ABE programs "drop out"

> 	> before reaching their goals?

> 	>

> 	>

> 	>

> 	> And again, on average, how many "efforts" (starting and then

> 	> dropping out and then starting again) does it take for an ABE

> 	> student to reach their goals?

> 	>

> 	>

> 	>

> 	> The answer to these questions will of course vary from

location to

>

> 	> location (great teachers, more "modern" approaches, less

> "impacted"

> 	> students .

> 	>

> 	>

> 	>

> 	> Also the current answers will change quite a bit as the

> 	> demographics of the ABE population changes as more of the

impacts

> 	> of NCLB are felt in the ABE programs (which we have seen quite

a

> 	> bit of change in the demographics especially in the South,

where

> 	> ABE has become the standard "placement" for 10th graders who

do

> not

> 	> "test well" and high school drop out rates have soared in the

past

>

> 	> 7 years .

> 	>

> 	>

> 	>

> 	> OK . given all of that . anyone want to guess at what the

"current

>

> 	> numbers seem to be?

> 	>

> 	>

> 	>

> 	> So should I just give them?

> 	>

> 	>

> 	>

> 	> Well . I will give the best information I have . based on the

US

> 	> DEPT of ED reports based on their National Reporting System .

> which

> 	> really does not cover these points very well . but we can see

what

>

> 	> we can see ..

> 	>

> 	>

> 	>

> 	> On average . it currently takes some 3-5 years before a person

> 	> reaches their goals in ABE programs

> 	>

> 	> On average . in actuality very few persons stay 3-5 years and

so

> 	> less then 10% actually reach their goals . at least 20% of

people

> 	> drop out of programs within the first then hours of service .

> 	>

> 	> On average - people try something like 3 times before dropping

out

>

> 	> for good.

> 	>

> 	>

> 	>

> 	> So . it appears on average the ABE system fails almost all it

> 	> serves and fails them dramatically

> 	>

> 	>

> 	>

> 	> So . how do we change this?

> 	>

> 	>

> 	>

> 	> Well . before I offer arguments on how to change this . I'd

like

> to

> 	> see if this stimulates conversation.

> 	>

> 	>

> 	>

> 	> Thank

> 	>

> 	>

> 	>

> 	>

> 	>

> 	> Glenn Young

> 	>

> 	> CSLD

> 	>

> 	> 530 Auburn Ave

> 	>

> 	> Buffalo NY 14222

> 	>

> 	> Cell 703-864-3755

> 	>

> 	> Phone/Fax 716-882-2842

> 	>

> 	> website: glennyoungcsld.com

> 	----------------------------------------------------

> 	National Institute for Literacy

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> 	

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