Well, said, Anne!

I wonder what anyone is doing to enhance students listening skills, as 
often problems in decoding are linked to problems in audition, namely 
the ability to clearly distinguish similar sounds.

Andrea


On Mar 28, 2008, at 4:24 PM, Anne Murr wrote:


> Sue and others who describe your outstanding ABE/GED programs, I am

> truly impressed with what you are accomplishing.  However, I pose to

> you a question that I pose to public school teachers and to

> professors of education when I have conversations with them about how

> the learning needs of struggling readers are not being met.  "Yes,

> what you are doing is good, but is it good enough for students who

> have different learning needs?  What more needs to be done?"

>

> Glenn has described what more needs to be done.  He confronted me

> with his present argument and plan about 8 years ago.  At that time,

> my thinking was, "But adults come to us to learn to read.  We have a

> responsibility to teach them to read, and we WILL."   In the ensuing

> years, this is what I've learned.

>

> Very few children who are not reading at grade level at the end of

> third grade will ever read at grade level.  Adults who failed to

> learn to read as children have even greater difficulty reaching

> reading proficiency.  For almost 10 years volunteer tutors at our

> Literacy Center have used direct, multisensory, intensive reading

> instruction in one-to-one settings.  As a result, we see adults

> gaining confidence and functionality as their reading skills improve.

> However, the improvement in grade-equivalent reading levels is slow,

> sometimes exceedingly so.

>

> However, adults enrolled in our Literacy Center have the capacity to

> learn and the potential to be far more productive than they are

> currently.  Technology is a tool to remove the literacy barrier and

> to provide the supports so that they learn more quickly and become

> more productive.

>

> A recent Wired magazine article describes the world of computers 5

> years from now.  Keyboards will not be our main means of inputting

> information.  We will speak to our computers and they will speak back

> to us.  Let's see what we can do to make the future happen NOW for

> adult struggling readers.

>

> Anne Murr, M.S., Coordinator

> Drake University Adult Literacy Center

> School of Education

> 3206 University Ave.

> Des Moines, IA 50311

> anne.murr at drake.edu

>    Tel    515-271-3982

>    Fax   515-271-4544

> The MISSION OF THE ADULT LITERACY CENTER IS TO IMPROVE LITERACY,

>    resulting in enhanced self-esteem, daily living, and lifelong 

> learning.

>

>>

>> Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 13:44:54 -0400

>> From: "McGilloway, Susan" <smcgilloway at ccbcmd.edu>

>> Subject: Re:Controversialagain

>> To: "The Learning Disabilities Discussion List"

>> 	<learningdisabilities at nifl.gov>

>>

>> I don't think we fail if a student "stops out". We have many

>> students who do that. "Stopping out" is one of the characteristics

>> of adult literacy learners. We had one student who, after ten years

>> in the program on and off, finally graduated through the External

>> Diploma Program. Sometimes it is a question of finding the right

>> path for the student. We encourage students to take whichever path

>> serves their needs. In our program we have a 75% retention rate. We

>> do a great deal of professional development on retention and have

>> focus groups among our 100+ teachers where they share their

>> strategies for retention. Also, we don't keep teachers who have poor

>> retention. We serve around 1800 ABE/GED students/year and just as

>> many ESOL and so we see it all. Our numbers are above the national

>> and state averages.

>>

>> Our instructional specialist communicates with teachers through

>> email and phone on a daily basis, provides the latest in strategies,

>> ideas for differentiated instruction, brain based learning research

>> - literally anything that will promote learning and retention. Her

>> theory is "if you don't get their attention in the first three

>> weeks, you lose them." We have, for the most part, a very student

>> centered program in which many of our teachers use differentiated

>> instruction. We also have paid literacy aides and volunteers who

>> serve as classroom assistants and individual tutors who meet with

>> students to supplement classroom instruction.

>>

>> Our twenty classroom advisors assist students with barriers that

>> prevent them from coming to class. We have a strong enrollment

>> management plan in which we offer classes at different

>> days/time/location according to the data from our market trends.

>> Also, we have year round and late start classes that serve the needs

>> of those students who can't start right away or who want to get

>> started immediately. Even with all this, we have a hundred students

>> on our waiting list for next semester.

>>

>> Do we fail...absolutely not!

>>

>> Sue McGilloway

>> Coordinator, Volunteers in Partnership

>> CAFL Career Advisor

>> CCBC Center for Adult and Family Literacy

>> 410-285-9933 Phone

>> smcgilloway at ccbcmd.edu

>>

>>

>> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 1:25 PM

>> To: 'The Learning Disabilities Discussion List'

>> Subject:  Re: Controversial again

>> Well at least I started some interesting discussion

>>

>> And I must add that when we talk "on average" ... what one must do

>> ... dear I say it ... is not compare their local or even state

>> programs per say ... but to look at  the national aggravate data

>> ....  We really can not tell without a great deal of work... where

>> our state or local program fits along the "bell curve" of all ABE

>> students or all ABE programs ... So, while people respond to the

>> data I present ... based on their own programs or states it becomes

>> a bit more problematic in how to have the discussion if they stand

>> only on their local data ... and want to have a dispute over a

>> percentage or two ... we need to look at the issues I am raising in

>> a bit more of global perspective.

>>

>> And the key point that has been raised so far ... that we can or can

>> not measure success based on if students meet their goals ... well

>> that is the crux of my point ... If we don't meet the goals of the

>> students ... what is our purpose?

>>

>> My point on this is that it does not really matter if we think the

>> goals are unrealistic or not ... it is their goals and they have a

>> reason for  having these goals ... and a reason often imposed upon

>> them by other factors than the ABE system, or wishful thinking  ...

>> such as welfare clients being told they have 6 months to get a GED

>> or they can't stay on welfare ... unrealistic or not ... the

>> pressures upon them are real and therefore their goals are real to

>> them ... Also, if a person wants to get into an internship with a

>> labor union or a training program in the food industry etc ... and

>> they may require a GED ... the student's goal of getting the GED is

>> an economic necessity, a great needed item ... often the key to

>> economic success for that student ... and not something they can

>> wait 3-5 years to obtain.

>>

>> So with these pressure, which are very real and very impacting on

>> their lives ... the ABE program says the goal is unrealistic ... but

>> that really does not matter to the person coming in, the customer

>> ... the GED is what they need and the GED is what is their goal

>> ...saying or inferring that the goal can not be met or met in a

>> timely fashion is a major reason why they customer will leave, and

>> we failed them.

>>

>> Currently the ABE system offers an approach that provides a path to

>> the GED on average that will take 3-5 years (that means for some its

>> will be a lot faster, and for other much, much longer, if at all ...

>> ) and  then

>>

>> We measure our success with a great deal of  "selection bias" ,

>> which makes it appear that our programs do better then they do ...

>> (in this case the selection is that those who stay often only need a

>> limited amount of help and those who don't stay are the ones who

>> need a lot more help ... and therefore ... in the short run it

>> appears out programs work for many of those who stay ... but the

>> selection bias is very great and we can not really say that the

>> programs, on average, really work well for the majority of those in

>> need ...only for whom the current model fits and then only some of

>> them.)

>>

>> My point is that we should not be saying ... the goal is

>> unrealistic.  That does not help the client.  We need to be asking

>> ... how can this client's goal be reached? To meet her/his needs ...

>> to address to their crisis ....And if we consistently can not meet

>> the goal ... then is it ABE that needs to be changing, not limiting

>> or changing the goals of the customers ... Can we figure out a way

>> to not say we can't meet these much needed goals ... but to be

>> asking how can we "modernize" to meet the goals? ....   And to steal

>> a much used phrase of this political season ... yes we can!

>>

>> So what is the change?   For the person who asked about Orton

>> Gillingham, while a far more valid approach to reading for adults

>> then the methods mostly used  ... that is not a solution for the

>> short time ... it still takes years to gain the skills ...often

>> taking hundreds of hours that builds on the intensity of each

>> session (something most adults do not have the time to do, in a

>> concentrated time fashion.) ... and also the key problem in passing

>> the GED is not just reading skills but knowledge ... and so we need

>> a solution that focuses gaining the knowledge to pass the GED.)

>>

>> Therefore ... again ... I am asking ... is there a different

>> approach, a different paradigm in which we can meet the needs of the

>> greater amount of customers?  The ones who appear to have such

>> "unrealistic" but really needed goals. Not meeting the needs of the

>> teachers in thinking they are helping by increasing the literacy

>> skills to some degree, but a different way of helping out customers

>> meet their needs in reaching the much needed goal of getting the

>> GED, or keeping that job, or getting a new job or staying on welfare

>> till they can work, or getting into the apprenticeship program, or

>> retraining to fit the new economy  ... etc... you know, ...  what

>> the customers needs.

>>  ...

>>

>> So I do say yes ... and it is not that more costly ... and

>> considering cost benefit analysis ... it is far cheaper .... Then

>> the current models, and far more productive for the customer ... And

>> when I give the solution ... I can hear all the objections now ...

>> because it is really so customer focused (and teachers are not the

>> customers of ABE) but I just want the chance to prove it ...   And

>> if we can just get a state or two to field test the idea ... I can

>> prove it too ... (unfortunately the big grant foundation I was

>> after, and had high hopes for,  just turned us down ....) anyone got

>> a little funding to create a new world or opportunities?

>>

>> Oh yes ... the solution ... like a good cliffhanger  ... details

>> later ... after more response.

>>

>> Glenn Young

>> CSLD

>> 530 Auburn Ave

>> Buffalo NY 14222

>> Cell 703-864-3755

>> Phone/Fax 716-882-2842

>> website: glennyoungcsld.com

>> ________________________________

>>

>> From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov

>> [mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Bruce C

>> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 11:00 AM

>> To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List

>> Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1801] Re: Controversial again

>>

>> Dear List,

>> I could write forever about this, but I'll try to be succint:

>>

>> First of all, adult literacy programs are working with a very

>> challenging population. We work with people who--for a variety of

>> largely unresearched reasons--did not learn to read in the ways that

>> most people were able to learn. It is unrealistic to expect that

>> people who have struggled all their lives to learn how to read would

>> all suddenly have an easy time of learning.

>>

>> Also, what are we talking about when we talk about students

>> achieving their ABE goals? Most people come to my program saying

>> they want their GED. Many take years to get that. Some don't ever

>> get a GED, but they improve their literacy levels. What is the

>> impact on income, civic involvement, children's literacy levels if

>> someone's reading level goes up? We don't know,  but I would sure

>> like to find out.

>>

>> Finally, why is it considered a problem if 20% drop out in the first

>> few hours? 80% stay and 20% decide they are not ready to make the

>> commitment now. It's like joining a gym. It's easy to sign up, but

>> hard to work out three times a week. Also, how many of those 20%

>> come back later when the time is right?

>>

>> from Bruce Carmel

>>

>> Glenn Young <gyoungxlt at roadrunner.com> wrote:

>> 	OK David ... but that's just your nature

>>

>> 	Are there others?

>>

>> 	Glenn Young

>> 	CSLD

>> 	530 Auburn Ave

>> 	Buffalo NY 14222

>> 	Cell 703-864-3755

>> 	Phone/Fax 716-882-2842

>> 	website: glennyoungcsld.com

>>

>> 	-----Original Message-----

>> 	From: learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov

>> 	[mailto:learningdisabilities-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of

>> David J. Rosen

>> 	Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 8:46 AM

>> 	To: The Learning Disabilities Discussion List

>> 	Subject: [LearningDisabilities 1796] Controversial again

>>

>> 	Glenn,

>>

>> 	On Mar 23, 2008, at 10:20 PM, Glenn Young wrote:

>>

>> 	> Well . before I offer arguments on how to change this . I'd like to

>> 	> see if this stimulates conversation.

>>

>> 	I'm intrigued. Continue.

>>

>> 	David J. Rosen

>> 	djrosen at comcast.net

>>

>> 	On Mar 23, 2008, at 10:20 PM, Glenn Young wrote:

>> 	> OK . I've been urged to come back in and raise a few

>> 	> "controversial" points

>> 	>

>> 	>

>> 	>

>> 	> So . let me start by asking some questions - Leading to the

>> 	> conclusion --- that we need to comprehensive reform of the ABE

>> 	> system . and that reform needs to focus on the extensive use of the

>> 	> new technologies that are generally available to all (who can

>> 	> afford them) . and these questions are:

>> 	>

>> 	>

>> 	>

>> 	> On average . how long does it take for a person entering ABE

>> 	> programs to reach their goals, if they stay in the program long

>> 	> enough to reach their goals?

>> 	>

>> 	>

>> 	>

>> 	> On average . how many persons entering ABE programs "drop out"

>> 	> before reaching their goals?

>> 	>

>> 	>

>> 	>

>> 	> And again, on average, how many "efforts" (starting and then

>> 	> dropping out and then starting again) does it take for an ABE

>> 	> student to reach their goals?

>> 	>

>> 	>

>> 	>

>> 	> The answer to these questions will of course vary from location to

>> 	> location (great teachers, more "modern" approaches, less "impacted"

>> 	> students .

>> 	>

>> 	>

>> 	>

>> 	> Also the current answers will change quite a bit as the

>> 	> demographics of the ABE population changes as more of the impacts

>> 	> of NCLB are felt in the ABE programs (which we have seen quite a

>> 	> bit of change in the demographics especially in the South, where

>> 	> ABE has become the standard "placement" for 10th graders who do not

>> 	> "test well" and high school drop out rates have soared in the past

>> 	> 7 years .

>> 	>

>> 	>

>> 	>

>> 	> OK . given all of that . anyone want to guess at what the "current

>> 	> numbers seem to be?

>> 	>

>> 	>

>> 	>

>> 	> So should I just give them?

>> 	>

>> 	>

>> 	>

>> 	> Well . I will give the best information I have . based on the US

>> 	> DEPT of ED reports based on their National Reporting System . which

>> 	> really does not cover these points very well . but we can see what

>> 	> we can see ..

>> 	>

>> 	>

>> 	>

>> 	> On average . it currently takes some 3-5 years before a person

>> 	> reaches their goals in ABE programs

>> 	>

>> 	> On average . in actuality very few persons stay 3-5 years and so

>> 	> less then 10% actually reach their goals . at least 20% of people

>> 	> drop out of programs within the first then hours of service .

>> 	>

>> 	> On average - people try something like 3 times before dropping out

>> 	> for good.

>> 	>

>> 	>

>> 	>

>> 	> So . it appears on average the ABE system fails almost all it

>> 	> serves and fails them dramatically

>> 	>

>> 	>

>> 	>

>> 	> So . how do we change this?

>> 	>

>> 	>

>> 	>

>> 	> Well . before I offer arguments on how to change this . I'd like to

>> 	> see if this stimulates conversation.

>> 	>

>> 	>

>> 	>

>> 	> Thank

>> 	>

>> 	>

>> 	>

>> 	>

>> 	>

>> 	> Glenn Young

>> 	>

>> 	> CSLD

>> 	>

>> 	> 530 Auburn Ave

>> 	>

>> 	> Buffalo NY 14222

>> 	>

>> 	> Cell 703-864-3755

>> 	>

>> 	> Phone/Fax 716-882-2842

>> 	>

>> 	> website: glennyoungcsld.com

>

> -- 

> ----------------------------------------------------

> National Institute for Literacy

> Learning Disabilities mailing list

> LearningDisabilities at nifl.gov

> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to 

> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/learningdisabilities

> Email delivered to andreawilder at comcast.net

>