Great rant Andres!

I don't see standardizing testing as so far removed from instruction, but there should be a better fit.  

va

 

________________________________

From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of andresmuro at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 1:01 PM
To: assessment at nifl.gov
Subject: [Assessment 548] Re: Measuring Outside the NRS

 

We have a migrant GED program in El Paso and several other GED classes funded by several non state ABE sources. Because our programs are not funded by ABE monies, we don't have to do NRS. We graduated approximately 250 students per year with a Spanish GED. This is more than any of the local state funded ABE programs graduate. I told the state assistant director that if he wanted, we would report them, if there was a way to do this. He said that we would have to have them progress through the TABE to get to pre-GED level. Well, we don't do any testing. 

Our students are Spanish Speakers so, in Texas the would first have to go into ESL. Most tend to place in the lowest levels of the ESL test used in Texas, the BEST. We would have to provide English literacy together with Spanish GED, and we would have to show that they are demonstrating gains in the BEST for the state to get credit for these students. We are not going to do this, because it is a waste of time. rather, we focus on intensive and extensive Sapnish GED instruction. Once the students have their GED certificate, we transition them to credit ESL classes at the CC where they can get financial aid. They also do well because they have the necessary academic skills. 

If NRS would allow us to give the students one test and then would allow the GED test to count as progress from the original placement, we would do this. However, in Texas we can't do this. I don't know if this is doable in other states. However, because the GED is an attractive goal for the students to work towards, they have a motivation. On the other hand, for students to work towards completing a level is frustrating. progressing from literacy ESL to Beginning ESL means nothing to the students. It only means something to some mysterious bureaucracy. It also interferes with the ability of teachers and programs to teach meaningful stuff.

This is very sad. all the mandatory testing that has been imposed at all levels from K-12 to adult education has been very detrimental. My wife has been teaching remedial reading at a University. The other day she took poetry to a class. The students had never interacted with poetry throughout High school. Since the only concern was for the students to show progress in some test, teachers only focused in preparing them for the stupid test. They didn't do well in the standardized test nor they were ever exposed to poetry and little prose. 

Our spanish GED students don't take standardized test to show progress, but they read a lot of poetry and prose. They have published two books of poetry and prose. You can see the books at http://bordersenses.com/memorias. Even if they never got their GEDs, this is a lot more menaingful than showing that you can go from literacy to intermedaite literacy according to some test.

Sorry, my rant is over.

Andres

 

 
-----Original Message-----
From: pammenjk at haslett.k12.mi.us
To: assessment at nifl.gov
Sent: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:13 AM
Subject: [Assessment 546] Re: Measuring Outside the NRS

Currently we can choose either TABE or CASAS for our program.  Most of us use 
CASAS for ESL and TABE for ABE.  However we are looking at how to meet the needs 
of the students who can test out of CASAS because they can read well, but still 
can't speak or understand well.  I've tried the CASAS listening test for the 
higher level testing population, but it works more as a reading test so doesn't 
help us much.
Jo Pamment
Michigan
 
Jo Pamment
Director Adult Ed. ESL
Haslett Public Schools
1118 S. Harrison 
East Lansing, Michigan 48823
 
TEL:  517 337-8353
FAX:  517 337-3195
E-Mail:  pammenjk at haslett.k12.mi.us <mailto:pammenjk%40haslett.k12.mi.us> 
 

>>> "Virginia Tardaewether" <tarv at chemeketa.edu <mailto:tarv%40chemeketa.edu> > 10/25/06 3:20:57 PM >>>

Wow
TABE And CASAS, that seems like unnecessary testing to me.  Keeping up with one 
is plenty enough I hope we never go to more.
va
 
-----Original Message-----
From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov <mailto:assessment-bounces%40nifl.gov>  [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov <mailto:assessment-bounces%40nifl.gov> ] On Behalf 
Of JO PAMMENT
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 6:57 AM
To: assessment at nifl.gov <mailto:assessment%40nifl.gov>  
Subject: [Assessment 543] Re: Measuring Outside the NRS
 
Hello Marie, 
I have been following the assessment discussion.  In Michigan we are mandated to 
use CASAS and TABE 9 and 10.  And we must test every 90 hours of student 
attendance.  These tests have not met all of our needs however.  I am interested 
in learning about the TABE ESL test that is coming out.  Has it been approved by 
the Federal government yet?  Has anyone seen or tried it yet?
Jo Pamment
 
Jo Pamment
Director Adult Ed. ESL
Haslett Public Schools
1118 S. Harrison 
East Lansing, Michigan 48823
 
TEL:  517 337-8353
FAX:  517 337-3195
E-Mail:  pammenjk at haslett.k12.mi.us <mailto:pammenjk%40haslett.k12.mi.us>  

>>> "Marie Cora" <marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com <mailto:marie.cora%40hotspurpartners.com> > 10/24/06 3:30 PM >>>

Dear Grace and Nancy - 
 
(First a big thank you to everyone who has jumped in - I knew that this
was important to you all.  As your busy time permits, keep on posting!)
 
Thanks so much for your perspectives.  I'm sure that you are not the
only ones whose programs conduct assessment outside of the NRS
requirements.  You both have hit on a number of extremely important
issues.  If you do not receive federal dollars, then you do not have to
adhere to NRS requirements - what types of assessments and tools do you
use if this is your case?  What sort of schedule or structure do you use
for intake, pre-assessment, on-going assessment, post-assessment?  Who
does the assessing?  Do you gauge non-academic skills?  If so, how?  Do
you set up benchmarks such as gaining grade levels or is this not a part
of the program?  How about timeframes?  Is that not as important because
you are not bound by the federal system?
 
Nancy - you said:  "I sense that by your colleagues' standards my
program would be deemed ineffective."  I have many questions:  who is to
say what is effective if your students stay and keep learning, and
improve their skills?  How about Nancy's question Subscribers:  is this
true?  Do you feel that Grace and Nancy's programs are less effective
because of their focus and structure?  Or do you feel a bit envious that
their programs are not bound by the strict requirements of NRS-tied
funding?  If your program receives federal dollars, do you feel that you
can really truly focus on the student's goal, or do you feel like you
need to figure their goal out for them (with the best of intentions) in
order to make sure you can show learning gains across your program and
keep your funding?  Katrina lamented about this in her post I think.  Do
you feel that helping the student work on her goal and following the
federal requirements are at odds or can they work together?
 
Let's hear from others on the List who are in a similar position to
Grace and Nancy.  If you are not tied to using the tools, structures,
and timeframes required by federal funding, then what does your program
look like - and how do you feel about that?  And for those folks who do
receive federal funding, what are your thoughts and questions for folks
whose programs work outside of the NRS requirements?
 
Thanks!
 
Marie Cora
Assessment Discussion List Moderator
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov <mailto:assessment-bounces%40nifl.gov>  [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov <mailto:assessment-bounces%40nifl.gov> ] 
On Behalf Of Grace Temple
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 1:56 PM
To: assessment at nifl.gov <mailto:assessment%40nifl.gov>  
Subject: [Assessment 537] Re: peep?
 
A great big AMEN! goes out to Nancy. This echos my position exactly.  I
too, am a director of our county Literacy Council.  I read all the posts
but respond to only a few as most don't seem to connect to our program.
All post assessment is done by the tutors (volunteers) who have been
trained to use the SLOSSON  lists.  This only gives us a ballpark figure
but it is the student's satisfaction that counts the most.  Do they feel
they have gained?  If they feel better about their ability to learn,
think they can handle everyday reading better and are willing to
continue, then our tutors have done well.
 
Grace Temple
Executive Director
Sanilac Literacy Council
Sanilac County, MI
 
  _____  
 
From:  Nancy Hansen <sfallsliteracy at ist
<assessment at nifl.gov <mailto:assessment%40nifl.gov> >
To:  The Assessment Discussion List <assessment at nifl.gov <mailto:assessment%40nifl.gov> >
Subject:  [Assessment 533] Re: peep?
Date:  Mon, 23 Oct 2006 12:56:32 -0700 (PDT)
 
Marie -
   
 
   
Without a peep .... I have been lurking ... every once in a while but
not regularly on this thread.  Part of the reason I haven't replied is
the emails that were posted were so loooong.  I felt it would require
research to read thoroughly and respond, so I didn't.  And I'm as always
busy with many projects as the only full-time paid staff.
   
 
   
It's not that I am not interested personally, but via my scanning the
posts I feel The Movement is not taking into consideration one (of a
couple) very important factors:  Some adult learners cannot commit to
the kind of time that many of you speak about.  That means their time
with their study is also very precious even though elongated.  If
testing takes away that time, it would be resented.
   
 
   
Ours is an adult literacy program driven by volunteer instructors.  The
focus 
of the materials includes periodic check-ups built into the lessons.
(Note:  Not called Tests.)  However, I sense that by your colleagues'
standards my program would be deemed ineffective.  You know .... the
learners aren't gaining a grade level every year.  Quite frankly the
learners don't *care* about that form of measurement.  
   
 
   
So I lurk.  I feel, No. 2, The System places too *little* importance on
what it is that the adult learner has brought with them as goals in
their need to read, write and spell better.  It cannot be measured in
many cases ... except, perhaps, in smiles, self-confidence and improved
worth.  *That* our learners *do* treasure!  How do members of the adult
education system intend those skill development factors to be measured?
Learner Portfolios are part of *our* system, yet unacceptable to the
NRS. 
It used to be that the check-up scores counted.  But no longer. 
   
 
   
Until the answers are clear, this agency director will remain on the
perimeters of the assessment discussion ... and *consequently* the
agency will continue without funding that is tied to a grade level
increase requirement.  The kicker is: The learners *like* what they are
receiving and that matters more.  At least to me.
   
 
   
Nancy Hansen
   
Executive Director
   
Sioux Falls Area Literacy Council
   
Sioux Falls, SD
 
Marie Cora <marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com <mailto:marie.cora%40hotspurpartners.com> > wrote:
   
         
     
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Dear colleagues,
   
 
   
Are you out there?  Is this a bad time for a discussion?  Is the topic
not of interest?
   
 
   
Aside from Virginia's post last week, I haven't heard from any of the
550 subscribers to the List.  I'm assuming that the topic (Measuring
Education Gains in Adult Literacy, 10/17 and 
10/18) is of interest.  But you need to let me know if it is or not.  I
generally gauge interest based on Subscriber responses, so if this is an
indication, the topic is not hot (which surprises me).  
   
 
   
Are there other topics you'd prefer to engage in?  What are they?  The
purpose of this List is to provide a forum for discussion that goes well
beyond your program's walls, so if I'm not hitting on the right stuff, I
really do need to hear from you.  
Membership here continues to climb, but you are all very silent.   
   
 
   
I really want to hear your thoughts and I want to know how this List can
serve you well.  Please let me know. hts to the List or to
me personally regarding other discussions that you would like to see
happen - and I'll make them happen.  
   
 
   
I value and appreciate your membership highly - but a Discussion List is
only as good as the discussions that occur.  If you've never posted and
that makes you a bit reticent, feel free to send me your post and I can
do a couple of things like help you compose your message, or I can post
your message for you anonymously.  The important thing is for your
voices to be heard.
   
 
   
Thanks!
   
 
   
marie
   
 
   
Marie Cora
   
 <mailto:marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com <mailto:marie.cora%40hotspurpartners.com> > marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com <mailto:marie.cora%40hotspurpartners.com>  
   
NIFL Assessment Discussion List Moderator
   
http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment 
   
Coordinator, LINCS Assessment Special Collection
   
http://literacy.kent.edu/Midwest/assessment/ 
   
 
   
 
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