The Library of Congress

Learning Page Chat, May 15, 2003: War and Peace

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "Hi John and BJ :-)"

John [guest] exclaims, "Hello to Leni!"

John [guest] says, "No I am happy with the broad range focus of your subject. I would like to bring people back to the questions of justice. I do not support a military science approach to war and peace."

BJ [HelpDesk] likes the idea of Justice

LeniD [Library of Congress] exclaims, "Works for me, too!"

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "Hello William :-)"

WilliamP says, "Hi, I'm glad I found you"

John [guest] exclaims, "Hello William!"

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "We're glad you found us, too :-)"

WilliamP says, "Hello, John"

BJ [HelpDesk] waves to William


LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "And thank you for that appreciative note, William."

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "Hi DebraAS :-) Welcome."

John [guest] exclaims, "Hello Debra!"

DebraAS says, "Thanks."

WilliamP says, "You're welcome. I'm better on e-mails than chat rooms."

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "You do just fine in both, William :-)"

John [guest] exclaims, "This will be my first chat room experience!"

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "We'll give folks a few more minutes...then we'll get started."

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "You are a brave man, John :-) Chat rooms are fun, but can be a bit confusing, initially."

John [guest] exclaims, "We shall overcome!"

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "LOL (Laughing out loud!). Good attitude :-)"

LeniD [Library of Congress] asks, "Debra, I just "peeked" are from CA! Are you feeling the brunt of the cuts in educational funding?"

DebraAS says, "I was laid off, then re-hired, so yes, I feel it."

WilliamP says, "No teacher left behind"

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "Oh dear...a good friend tells me she and her husband BOTH were laid off. I'm so glad to hear you were rehired."

DebraAS says, "I just found out Friday. It was a big relief."

MichaelAH [SS Forum] waves MichaelAH [SS Forum] waves and apologizes for being a little late

LeniD [Library of Congress] exclaims, "I'll bet, Debra!"

John [guest] exclaims, "Hello Michael!"

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "Hi Michael! Good to have you here :-)"

MichaelAH [SS Forum] waves to everyone

MichaelAH [SS Forum] says, "Hi, everyone, welcome to tonight's Learning Page Chat...."

MichaelAH [SS Forum] says, "Leni has a great topic I'm sure we'll all be interested in this evening... and as we always do, let's start with some introductions"

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "Thanks, Michael...I'm Leni Donlan, the project coordinator for The Learning Page, The Library of Congress."

MichaelAH [SS Forum] is a Technology Curriculum Facilitator for a school district in southwestern Indiana.

DebraAS says, "I'm Debra Schneider, a high school US history teacher."

WilliamP says, "I am a musician from New Orleans."

John [guest] says, "I am a 32 year veteran of teaching at a public high school in Longmeadow Massachusetts. I also a combat veteran of the Vietnam War and a long time member of the anti-war movement."

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "We have quite an interesting group here, tonight. We are thrilled to welcome you all."

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "John and I have much to share. Here's the plan... We all know what loaded topics war and peace are and how critical it is that we build citizens with an understanding of cause, effect, implications, ramifications, cultural issues, economic issues, geographic information and political issues."

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "We want our students to know what happened in wars of the past, understand the state of the world today, and begin to think seriously about how they can shape a global peace within their lifetime. Soooo...."

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "Let's begin with a review of some resources from the Library of Congress to help us teach about wars past. I'll share with you a new activity from the Learning Page, as well. Then I'm going to turn the "floor" over to John to answer your questions and lead some discussion about our more recent wars. Ready?"

DebraAS says, "Yes."

MichaelAH [to Leni]: "sure... want me to remind everyone about projections, first?"

LeniD [Library of Congress] exclaims, "Get comfortable and hold on we go!"

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "Let's begin with America's Revolutionary War..."

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "From the Library's incomparable map collections..."

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "The American Revolution and Its Era: Maps and Charts of North America and the West Indies 1750 - 1789"

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "Don't miss this special presentation..." to give you some "background information."

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "Next... Roger Fenton's Crimean War Photographs (the first look at war through a photographic lens)..."

John [guest] says, "The Crimean War was the first to use photographs and it fostered the illusion that the truth was being transmitted."

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "Important point, John... we must question the belief that the camera always shows truth."

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "Got it? Ready to move on to the Civil War?

DebraAS says, "Okay."

WilliamP says, "gopher it"

MichaelAH [SS Forum] wants to see Civil War stuff :)

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "The Civil War...a timeline..."

John [guest] exclaims, "Good time line!"

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "It is, indeed! :-)"

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, " and Civil War Maps ..."

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, " and next, ... The Learning Page Timeline of American History feature presentation...Civil War and Reconstruction, 1861 - 1877"

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "If you haven't explored this Feature Presentation, please think about doing so, Folks. It presents a wonderful overview of American history through the American Memory collections."

WilliamP says, "It's one of the few sites on the internet about reconstruction."

DebraAS says, "I have worked with some of these lessons in the past... but find them to be much improved..."

John [guest] says, "I find the reconstruction era more interesting and morally complicated that the war era itself."

WilliamP says, "One site goes so far as to list all your pages as bibliography."

DebraAS says, "so this re-acquaintance is a pleasure. And ditto re Reconstruction."

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "Civil War Photographs...

MichaelAH [SS Forum] has used this page also.

DebraAS says, "I have used the "does the camera ever lie" in investigating war photography."

LeniD [Library of Congress] exclaims, "One of my link, in fact!"

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "John, this is a nice demonstration for students of what you were saying...our faith in "pictures" needs to be balance with understanding that they, too, have a point of view. Yes?"

John [guest] exclaims, "True. Good stuff!"

DebraAS says, "A similar take on the topic of photography and war is covered at the PBS site "American Photography.""

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "You may not have seen this one, Folks... Civil War Treasures from The New York Historical Society"

DebraAS says, "Love the Before, During, After synopses."

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "The Motion Picture Camera Goes to War...(The Spanish-American War (first war to be captured on film) & The Philippine Revolution"

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "Folks...we are having a thunder storm...and my connection is much slower than usual..."

WilliamP exclaims, "That is NOT thunder. That is applause!"

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "Just a heads up for you...if I disappear you will know why..."

BJ [HelpDesk] chuckles

John [guest] exclaims, "We are also supposed to have an eclipse of the moon tonight!"

LeniD [Library of Congress] exclaims, "Right!"

WilliamP says, "It must be Good Friday."

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "Here comes the Spanish American War, as promised..."

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "and now ... World War I! Ready?"

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "The Learning Page Timeline of American History feature presentation ... Progressive Era to New Era, 1900 - 1929: U.S. Participation in the Great War (World War One)"

John [guest] exclaims, "Looks good!"

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "It is good, John. :-)"

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "Next... American Leaders Speak: Recordings from World War I and the 1920 Election - The Learning Page collection connection...."

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "Folks, collection connections, for the uninitiated, are an in depth look at a specific American Memory collection. They are chock full of teaching suggestions, critical thinking guiding questions...and are especially useful for high school teachers!"

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "Did you poke around a bit? All collections have at least a summary collection connection while many have three part connections like this one."

DebraAS says, "I am poking around. I like the "critical thinking questions that help students focus in their investigation of sources."

LeniD [Library of Congress] exclaims, "Exactly, Debra! We are all about inquiry learning :-)"

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "Shall we move along ... still have much to show..."

DebraAS exclaims, "Let's keep going!"

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "For European Recovery: The Fiftieth Anniversary of the Marshall Plan"

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "now moving on to World War II...The Learning Page Timeline of American History feature presentation ... Great Depression and World War II, 1929-1945"

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "pulling you away, again... Rosie Pictures: Select Images Relating to American Women Workers During World War II"

LeniD [Library of Congress] asks, "Did you get any of those images?"

DebraAS says, "Many broken links. Is this type of page meant to be a guide to further searching? Are these images listed e-available?"

MichaelAH [to All]: "pages loaded fine here"

John [guest] says, "I saw some very good material."

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "It is a guide, Debra...but has images included. Glad to hear that, John."

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "Women Come to the Front: Journalists, Photographers and Broadcasters During World War II (I know you will all see this one!)..."

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "California teachers were begging for something on Japanese internment, Debra..."

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "Born Free and Equal ..Ansel Adam's photo documentary of life at Manzanar."

DebraAS says, "Yes, I found that (Adams) source just this week."

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "Here are some of the Library's "top treasures"...not to be missed..."

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "The Most Famous Poster..."

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "The story behind America's unofficial national anthem...God Bless America"

LeniD [Library of Congress] asks, "Any whiplash out there?"

MichaelAH [SS Forum] is fine (but will send Leni the chiropractor's bill)

John [guest] exclaims, "I missed the poster!"

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "Oh dear... sorry I went so fast, John...time is speeding by..."

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "Annotated references ... International Relations: Peace, Security, and Defense"

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "For you AND your students...."

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "I'll give John a chance to view before whipping you all away :-)"

WilliamP says, "ow"

LeniD [Library of Congress] asks, "ow? Are you okay, William...more chiropractic bills coming my way?"

WilliamP says, "I'm documenting my court case with primary documents."

LeniD [Library of Congress] exclaims, "LOL!"

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "moving along ... almost at the end..."

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "The Veterans History Project from the Library of Congress Folklife Center...."

DebraAS says, "My students participated in this last year and sent the results to our local history museum..."

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "I hope you ALL know about this one! Excellent Debra."

DebraAS says, "and still talk about it to me in the halls."

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "So I suspected! Smashing project ... "making history" is a unique approach to "learning history" :-)"

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "A couple of activities from the Learning Page..."

DebraAS says, "Connecting kids to history and their family members in new ways."

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "Exactly, Debra."

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "Zoom into Maps: Military Maps"

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "A jigsaw puzzle activity from the Learning Page - Rosie the Riveter..."

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "Click play and give it a whirl :-) But not now! :-) Moving you along..." here's a sneak preview of a brand new Learning Page activity ... published just this afternoon! (gasp, puff, pant!)"

MichaelAH . o O ( maybe we should pay for LENI'S chiropractic bills???? )

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "Thanks for allowing me to zip you through all this material. I hope you will go back and revisit these links :-)"

John [guest] says, "Maps are needed by people not familiar with the neighborhood. Such as an army of invaders."

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "Nahhh...I need orthopedic help for my crippled fingers :-)"

John [guest] exclaims, "Excellent collection!"

MichaelAH [to Leni]: "I'm married to a physical therapist... maybe I should log off and put her online? :)"

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "Pullleeeze :-)"

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "Without further ado...let's open the discussion about the topic of war and peace. I turn the floor over to our esteemed guest. Take it away, John! Let's talk, folks :-)"

John [guest] says, "I am quite impressed because I have never done much with the LOC before."

John [guest] says, "I am open for questions."

LeniD [Library of Congress] says, "Ahhh..that's high praise from a scholar and gentleman. Thanks, John."

LeniD [Library of Congress] asks, "Questions? Comments?"

DebraAS says, "John, I work with the "themes" of war and peace as a way to study wars of the 20th c."

DebraAS asks, "What sub-themes would you consider most important to address?"

John [guest] says, "I suggest thinking about war and peace as better thought of as pro-war and anti-war and pro-peace and anti-peace."

John [guest] says, "I think the sub-theme of justice has to play a role in ends and means."

DebraAS says, "I used to have "homefront" "soldiers' experience" but have also added "journalism" and "dissent.""

DebraAS says, "We also start with "rules of war" and kids learn that such rules exist...and begin to question the idea that something like war can be conducted with rules."

John [guest] says, "Good Debra because we have to get students away from a one dimensional view."

DebraAS says, "I can't even remember the unit question I used to use, but one student once said, "The real question is what are you willing to kill for and what are you willing to die for?""

DebraAS says, "That seems to make them think of war differently than the glory and honor" way."

John [guest] says, "War is killing and dying. Victors and victims."

DebraAS says, "While I like that the question "bottom lines" them, I am disturbed that many still believe in war and a "my country wrong or right" way of thinking."

John [guest] says, "Are there any questions you have on the Vietnam War? That is the focus of my book and my own area of expertise."

DebraAS asks, "What is the title of your book?"

DebraAS asks, "If I am comparing and contrasting wars of the 20th c. what do you think students should "get" about Vietnam?"

John [guest] says, "The Vietnam War: A History in Documents Marilyn Young, John Fitzgerald and Tom Grunfeld Oxford University Press, 1992."

John [guest] says, "I like the questions raised by James W. Loewen in his Lies My Teacher Told Me."

DebraAS asks, "I hate the title but do like his premise. What question(s) do you mean?"

John [guest] asks, "Why did the United States fight in Vietnam?"

John [guest] asks, "What was the war like before the US entered it? How did the war change the US?"

DebraAS says, "Thanks. Those work for ANY war and help get at US intent, self-interest, etc."

John [guest] asks, "Why did an anti war movement become so strong in the US? What were its criticisms? Were they right?"

John [guest] asks, "Why did the US lose the war?"

John [guest] asks, "What lessons should we take from the experience?"

John [guest] asks, "What do you think of them? The questions?"

MichaelAH [to John [guest]]: "definitely thought provoking..."

DebraAS says, "I am thinking about how a matrix I use to compare wars..."

MichaelAH [SS Forum] says, "I could add another one...."

DebraAS says, "could be headed by these questions... and provide a common focus across wars that is about more than just "who, what, when, where, why" etc."

DebraAS says, "Add another Michael."

MichaelAH [SS Forum] says, "how about something regarding how Americans have treated returning vets from the Gulf War compared to how Vietnam vets were treated."

MichaelAH [SS Forum] says, "thinking about how we tended to sort of "forget" the Vietnam vet while really supporting Gulf War vets."

John [guest] says, "There is a book entitled the Spitting Image - Lembcke I believe."

John [guest] says, "Vietnam veterans were not so much spit upon as ignored. The VA did not service them adequately."

MichaelAH [to John [guest]]: "do you think that was probably because of the fact that the war wasn't "won", or basically because of the anti-war movement?"

John [guest] exclaims, "Look at Germany after WWI and how it treated its veterans. That's where the NAZI movement sprang from. Kindling from one war led to the next!"

DebraAS exclaims, "Thank you both for your help. I know it's over our"quitting time." Thanks to Leni, too. Dinner is ready at my house!"

John [guest] says, "Michael I think it was because the government did not want to face and pay the real costs of their wounds."

John [guest] exclaims, "Thank all of you. I enjoyed doing this!"

BJ [HelpDesk] exclaims, "thank you, John!"

John [guest] exclaims, "It is time to say good bye!"

MichaelAH [to John [guest]]: "Thank you!"

BJ [HelpDesk] waves goodnight

MichaelAH [SS Forum] waves

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