<DOC>
[109th Congress House Hearings]
[From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access]
[DOCID: f:26676.wais]
THE VA'S VOCATIONAL REHABILITATION AND
EMPLOYMENT SERVICE CONTRACT SERVICES AND ITS
COORDINATION WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF LABOR'S
VETERANS' EMPLOYMENT AND TRAINING SERVICE
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HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON
VETERANS' AFFAIRS
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
SUBCOMMITTEE ON
ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY
ONE HUNDRED NINTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
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MARCH 9, 2006
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Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs
Serial No. 109-38
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
26-676 PDF WASHINGTON : 2006
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THE VA'S VOCATIONAL REHABILITATION AND
EMPLOYMENT SERVICE CONTRACT SERVICES AND ITS
COORDINATION WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF LABOR'S
VETERANS' EMPLOYMENT AND TRAINING SERVICE
THURSDAY, MARCH 9, 2006
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY,
COMMITTEE ON VETERANS’ AFFAIRS,
Washington, D.C.
The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:00 a.m., in
the Cannon House Office Building, Hon. John Boozman [Chairman of the
Subcommittee] presiding.
Present: Representatives Boozman, Herseth, and Campbell.
MR. BOOZMAN. The meeting will be in order. Today we will
be receiving testimony regarding VA Vocational Rehabilitation and
Employment contracting practices and integration with the Veterans'
Employment and Training service.
Before we begin, I want to note that Hire a Hero, Coming Home
to Work, and REALifelines all have similar goals of placing our
wounded veterans in good jobs. While there are differences among
these programs, there is no reason that we could not adopt perhaps a
common title, set of goals, and coordinated management among the
departments.
For example, the title REALifelines has no intuitive
connection with hiring disabled veterans. The existence of three
similar federal programs is also causing confusion among the wounded
and their families.
Therefore, I am asking VETS to take the lead and to work
with VR&E and DoD to begin the process of blending these programs
into a single unified effort with a common title, perhaps Hire a
Hero, that really sounds good to me.
It’s almost a cliche to say that VA’s Voc Rehab and
Employment Program should be the crown jewel in the VA benefits
program. Unfortunately, the reality over the past few years is
that Voc Rehab and Employment has taken a back seat to other
benefit programs and issues.
I want to be clear that all of us here share in that
shortcoming. The Department and Congress respond to what the
veterans organizations and others see as the major programmatic
shortfalls.
For the past several years, VSOs have been most vocal about
the Compensation and Pension program. As a result, C&P has gotten
the lion’s share of attention on the Hill and at the VA.
That focus has resulted in Voc Rehab and Employment program
underperforming to the point where former VA Secretary Anthony
Principi felt compelled to establish a task force to review the
program's goals and performance and recommend improvements.
The task force reported out over 100 recommendations
including several on contracting. Contract services are vital to
the success of the VR&E program as a way to augment permanent VA
staff and to increase geographic access to program services. I
have asked VA to come here today to discuss how they contract for
services, the rates they pay, and how they conduct oversight of
their contractors.
We are also interested in how VA and the Veterans Employment
and Training Service are implementing their most recent Memorandum
of Agreement to improve employment services for disabled veterans
in the Voc Rehab and Employment program.
It is absolutely vital that these two agencies cooperate
in the closest possible manner to achieve higher employment and
retention rates among disabled veterans. Their recent MOA
established several working groups and I look forward to hearing
how this process is evolving.
I now recognize our Ranking Member, Ms. Herseth for any
opening remarks that she may have.
MS. HERSETH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good morning to you
and to all those joining us here at the Subcommittee today. I
thank you for holding today’s hearing to explore such important
and timely subjects. Indeed, contract management and interagency
communication are key for responsible stewardship of federal
resources. And I want to thank the witnesses for being here today
and look forward to your insightful testimony.
Vocational Rehabilitation and employment counseling services
are a critical component of any disabled veterans’ seamless
transition from military service to civilian life. The Department
of Veterans' Affairs Vocational Rehabilitation Employment Program
and the Department of Labor's Veterans Employment and Training
Service play the primary and crucial roles in administering such
services.
Accordingly, Mr. Chairman, I am very pleased that we are
going to be exploring the VR&E program's contract -- contracting
and management services and processes as well as the costs for
oversight and management of these contract services.
I am also interested in hearing from the witnesses, as you
mentioned, about the progress related to the implementation of the
recent Memorandum of Agreement between VR&E and VETS concerning
improved -- more coordination and communication between the agencies.
The State of South Dakota has National Guard soldiers
activated in support of operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. Some
of these brave servicemembers have returned injured and are now
currently or will in the near future seek vocational rehabilitation
and employment services. They are like all disabled veterans from
around the country who deserve our best efforts to provide that
seamless and effective transition from military service to civilian
life and to the workforce.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
MR. BOOZMAN. Thank you, Ms. Herseth. Our first panel is an
important player in the Voc Rehab and Employment process. DAV has a
long history of interest in the program and Mr. Brian Lawrence the
Assistant National Legislative Director is here today to present
DAV's testimony. Brian, you are now recognized.
STATEMENT OF BRIAN E. LAWRENCE, ASSISTANT NATION-
AL LEGISLATIVE DIRECTOR OF THE DISABLED AMERICAN
VETERANS
MR. LAWRENCE. Thank you, Chairman Boozman. Good morning,
Chairman and Ranking Member Herseth. On behalf of the 1.3 million
members of the DAV, I am pleased to present our views pertaining to
the Department of Veterans' Affairs Vocational Rehabilitation and
Education Contract Services in its coordination with the Department
of Labor Veterans’ Employment and Training Services, or VETS. We
thank you for holding today's hearing.
The DAV was founded on the principle that our nation's
first obligation to veterans is rehabilitation of its wartime
disabled. Along with quality health care and adequate
compensation, this principle envisions gainful employment as a
primary step toward that goal.
The VR&E program is responsible for providing services
and assistance that will enable disabled veterans to obtain and
maintain stable and gainful employment. The importance of its
mission is heightened during the war on terror on thousands of
servicemembers who are returning from Afghanistan and Iraq with
serious injuries.
Primarily, DAV's recommendations regarding contract services
and coordination of efforts between VR&E and VETS reflect those
made in the 2004 VR&E task force report. We are pleased that most
of the steps to implement those recommendations have been taken.
And we encourage VR&E and VETS to continue their progress in that
regard.
The VETS an VR&E are two separate agencies. Their concerted
efforts are necessary to maximize disabled veterans' opportunities
for gainful employment. Coordinating such efforts likely poses some
complex challenges. I have been with the DAV for more than a decade
and throughout my tenure I have witnessed the internal challenges VA
faces in trying to coordinate efforts between its benefits
administration and its health administration.
Since VETS and VR&E are completely separate departments it's
easy to see why maintaining open lines of communication is an even
greater challenge. But they are challenges that can be overcome and
among other recommendations to aid in that regard we recommend that
each VR&E office should include at least one DVOP, which is a
Disabled Veteran Outreach Professional, among its staff.
We also recommend that the coordination of efforts between
VR&E and VETS must also continue to ensure the establishment of the
five-track system of services available to disabled veterans. The
five-track system provides an array of services that recognize the
variant needs of individual disabled veterans. To be fully
effective, the five-track system will require teamwork between the
two agencies to ensure that disabled veterans receive appropriately
suited services.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That completes my statement and I
will be happy to answer any questions you may have.
[The statement of Brian E. Lawrence appears on p. 26]
MR. BOOZMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Lawrence. You just
recommended that a DVOP be assigned to every VR&E office. Has your
field staff, noticed any resistance to that on the part of the state
employment services?
MR. LAWRENCE. No, sir. I think that would probably be
welcome by most of the offices.
MR. BOOZMAN. Okay. AMVETS states for the record that VA
does not give priority within the Voc Rehab and Employment program
to those veterans with severe disabilities. Do you agree with that
statement?
MR. LAWRENCE. That has not been my experience. There is
probably different case scenarios for as many different offices as
there are. But, I have worked with the Salt Lake regional office as
a service officers and also Bay Pines in Florida. And I also
have -- am a product of vocational rehabilitation myself. And I
worked with the Iowa department. And all of the -- all of my
experiences they have been very helpful and go out of their way to
help veterans regardless of how severely disabled they are.
MR. BOOZMAN. Should they triage?
MR. LAWRENCE. Pardon me?
MR. BOOZMAN. Should they triage?
MR. LAWRENCE. Should they triage?
MR. BOOZMAN. Yes, those applying for the Voc Rehab benefits.
MR. LAWRENCE. I think that every disabled veteran coming
before them should receive the same amount of services and
attention. Yes, I imagine probably there should be some level of
prioritization that would -- I mean they are going to have to do
different things for various veterans, which is part of what the
five-track system recognizes from the task force recommendation.
MR. BOOZMAN. Thank you. Ms. Herseth.
MS. HERSETH. Well thank you very much for your testimony.
And, you know, you had addressed some things in both your written
statement and the testimony you just provided. But, perhaps if you
could elaborate in your opinion, from your perspective, and from
the organization's perspective, since the completion of the VR&E
task force report, do you see improvement by the VR&E program with
respect to vocational rehabilitation services as well as the
communication coordination with the Department of Labor? I mean
you identify that there would be some challenges. Do you see that
since last fall when the memorandum was signed that some of those
challenges have already been overcome? Or at least can you sense
whether or not there is a strategic plan in place to address and
overcome those challenges?
MR. LAWRENCE. I spoke with my service staff members prior
to coming over here today to get their opinions as well and see if
they had any feedback from the field. And it was thought that there
might be a slight improvement in that regard as far as the
coordination of efforts between the two agencies, but there were
not really any noteworthy examples to indicate that great leaps and
bounds had been made in that regard.
I do think that there has been an improvement since the task
force report with viewing vocational rehabilitation as an employment
program. It used to be just kind of viewed, I think, as an
education program and, you know, was thought of, you know, it was a
different way for people to get through college. And I do think a
lot more emphasis has been placed on not only education, but
employment as well. So we are pleased to see that.
MS. HERSETH. And you would say that that is the case with
both agencies?
MR. LAWRENCE. Yes.
MS. HERSETH. Okay. Are you hearing anything from your
membership in particular for those that may live in more rural areas
about any difficulties they may be having in accessing vocational
rehabilitation services? Is that something that you can assess very
well in terms of membership and geographic distinctions?
MR. LAWRENCE. Yes. I think that rural veterans probably
in comparison have maybe slightly better services then what some of
the larger centers would have. Maybe it’s a little more
individualized and we recommend in the IV that counselors be limited
to a certain number of clients. And I think that maybe some of
the rural veterans that their counselors are not as busy with, you
know, a vast number of clients. Or maybe able to provide a little
more individualized attention.
MS. HERSETH. Okay. And I guess I just would have one
followup question along the lines of what the Chairman was asking.
Would -- in your response about feeling that some prioritization
would have to occur, do you say that because of your experience in
how these programs are just generally administered without funding
considerations? Or do you say that because of any of the budget
constraints that we have been facing within the last couple of
years?
MR. LAWRENCE. No. I --
MS. HERSETH. Just given the increase in the number of
veterans that are returning from Iraq and Afghanistan that have
suffered some very serious injuries.
MR. LAWRENCE. No. I, in no way, was considering budget
constraints in saying that there should be a prior -- I was merely
thinking of the array of needs posed by individual veterans. And
that would be the only categorization that we would recommend.
And obviously somebody with catastrophic level disabilities
is going to require a different focus than somebody with a 20
percent or a 30 percent injury to their leg. And that goes along
with what I said about the five-track program. That would be the
only type of, well, categorization that I would recommend.
MS. HERSETH. Thank you, Mr. Lawrence. I would yield back
to the Chairman.
MR. BOOZMAN. Thank you very much for your testimony today,
Mr. Lawrence. We appreciate the input and appreciate all that the
DAV is doing in advocacy, thanks for your testimony.
MR. LAWRENCE. Thank you, sir.
MR. BOOZMAN. Let's have the second panel now. We are
really pleased to have Ms. Judy Caden, Director of the Vocational
Rehab and Employment Service with us. She is accompanied by
Mr. Jerry Braun, her Deputy Director and Mr. Jan Frye, Deputy
Assistant Secretary for Acquisition and Material Management.
The Honorable Charles Ciccolella -- I have been working on
that all morning so that I will get that right. You are like me,
Booze-man, Boozman, whatever. I know I am not the first one that
struggled a little bit. But it is good to have you here. The
Department of Labor’s Assistant Secretary for Veterans Employment
and Training. And we look forward to getting your view on how we
progress. Ms. Caden, go ahead and start if you would. Thank you.
STATEMENTS OF JUDITH CADEN, DIRECTOR, VOCATIONAL
REHABILITATION AND EMPLOYMENT PROGRAM VET-
ERANS BENEFITS ADMINISTRATION ALONG WITH JERRY
BRAUN, DEPUTY DIRECTOR VOCATIONAL REHABILITA-
TION AND EMPLOYMENT, VOCATIONAL BENEFITS ADMIN-
ISTRATION AND JAN FRYE, DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRE-
TARY FOR ACQUISITION AND MATERIAL MANAGEMENT,
DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS
MS. CADEN. Mr. Chairman and members of the Subcommittee,
thank you for inviting me to appear before you today to discuss
specific elements of the Department of Veterans’ Affairs
Vocational Rehabilitation and Employment, VR&E, Program.
In keeping with your request, I will begin by talking about
VR&E's contracting process, costs, and management and then I will
discuss our partnering activities with VETS.
The Vocational and Rehabilitation and Employment program
utilizes contractors to supplement and complement the services
provided by VR&E staff to veterans participating in each of the
VR&E programs.
A national acquisition strategy, or NAS, was instituted in
order to standardize and streamline the acquisition procedures used
to certify contractors. The NAS resulted in a list of providers
for each regional office for initial vocational assessments and
evaluations, case management and rehabilitative services, and
employment services.
The Office of Inspector General recently conducted an
evaluation of the contract and identified several vulnerabilities.
And as a result we have decided not to go forward with the final
option year of the NAS. And instead we are in the process of
issuing a new NAS for a five-year period beginning in fiscal year
2007. The vulnerabilities identified by the IG, in combination with
our past experience will help to ensure that we improve upon the
previous NAS contracts.
Expenditures under the current NAS average approximately
$8.3 million per year. The VR&E officers in the field are
responsible for management and oversight of the contracting
activities at each of their stations. Proposed expenditures are
obligated by the VR&E officers. The work performed by the
contractors is monitored by counselors. And payments are approved
by the VR&E officer.
Overall contract expenditures at a given regional office
are tracked via our corporate management reports. And VR&E officers
closely monitor their funds and expenditures to ensure their balance
is adequate to provide services throughout the fiscal year.
In order to manage contracting activities, each regional
office is required to have two basic level warranted contracting
officers and at least two contracting officer technical
representatives, which are called COTRs. Contracting officers are
the VR&E officers and their assistants. And these individuals are
issued warrants upon successful completion of a mandatory 40 hour
training requirement.
VR&E counselor serve as COTRs, and the COTRs are responsible
for quality assurance, contract monitoring, conducting quality
assurance reviews, and serving as the primary point of contact for
the contractor. And to date we have 256 COTRs in the field.
We have expanded the VR&E site visit protocol to require a
review of contracting activities to ensure the station is adhering
to the contracting guidelines for local and NAS contracts. And
additionally the site visit team reviews contract documentation to
ensure required justifications for contractor selection are in
place.
I will now discuss our interaction with VETS. On
October 3, 2005, we signed a revised Memorandum of Agreement with
the goal of improving service delivery to veterans with service-
connected disabilities. The new agreement expands and solidifies
our cooperation as partners in case management, employment
services, reporting, oversight, and monitoring. Joint work groups
will develop recommendations to overcome the critical challenges
facing the partnership in the area of performance measures, joint
training, and joint data collection analysis and reporting.
Implementation of the agreement with VETS has been made
easier with the co-location of 72 disabled veterans outreach
program, or DVOP, specialists at 36 of our VA regional offices and
36 outbased facilities. VR&E's employment coordinators partner
with the DVOP specialists and local veterans employment
representatives to assess the feasibility of employment services,
recommend an appropriate vocational rehabilitation plan, and
deliver job readiness training and job placement services.
We have included our DOL partners in our national deployment
of the five-track employment model, which is an employment driven
service delivery system focusing on presenting employment options
early in the rehabilitation planning process. And VR&E staff have
presented briefings at many of DOL’s conferences and we have also
jointly produced and presented satellite training broadcasts.
Also, DOL representatives delivered presentations at our last two
VR&E management training conferences.
I believe we are making progress forging an effective
partnership with VETS. Veterans with service-connected disabilities
are benefitting from that progress through the availability and
delivery of more comprehensive employment services. Mr. Chairman,
this concludes my testimony. I greatly appreciate being here today
and look forward to answering any questions you or other members of
the Subcommittee may have.
[The statement of Judith Caden appears on p. 31]
MR. BOOZMAN. We are joined by Mr. Campbell of California.
He is our newest member on the Committee. And we really appreciate
your willingness to serve on the Veterans’ Affairs Committee in
general. And we are really excited about having you on this
Subcommittee that is so important. Do you have any comments?
MR. CAMPBELL. No. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
MR. BOOZMAN. Thank you. The regional sites that have
cooperation between DVOPS and LVERs and VR&E staff, in some,
cooperation is good. However, The American Legion states that
Texas and Alabama, as sites, perhaps have less than satisfactory
cooperation, coordination between DVOPS and LVERs and VR&E staff.
I guess I would assume that perhaps those two states are rare,
hopefully they are, but perhaps we have some problems, with other
states as well? I guess what we would like to know is your views
as to what are some of the causes and then maybe some of the
solutions to that situation.
MS. CADEN. Well, we have started to look into that. I read
that in the testimony. We talk on a regular basis to our VR&E
officers. We talk on a regular basis with DOL and VETS. And in
many areas it’s working very well. Sometimes it’s just a matter of
is someone available to be in our office. Is the communication --
but I would like to explore it some more if we can and report back
to you.
MR. BOOZMAN. You can do that. Again, I was going to follow
up and say that perhaps, that would be very appropriate. If you
could give us some status, as to what is going on in that area.
In your testimony you mentioned that the IG identified
several vulnerabilities in the current national acquisition
strategy. Can you talk to us a little bit more specifically about
what the vulnerabilities were and did the IG find any instances of
fraud, waste, or abuse?
MS. CADEN. Sure. No, there were no instances in that
report of fraud, waste, or abuse. It went to the process that was
in place for the most part. And they pointed out things like that
some of the contract specifications, the statements of work, were
not as clear and concise as what they should be.
Inadequate follow up on our part on the VR&E part of
internal quality assurance and doing the oversight that is needed
and necessary. And in some cases inadequate justification for
selection of higher price contractors to perform the work.
And what we have done since that report, we have a pretty
detailed plan for reacting to each of those instances. We beefed
up to a considerable degree our oversight and the quality
assurance. I mentioned in my testimony, we now go out and visit
the offices. That is one of the things we are looking at. We are
also getting reports on a regular basis on contracting. And we
review, in the case of the contract specifications, we review that
to make sure they are clear and what they should be, as well as
reviewing those price justifications. And it’s also because of
what the IG found and our own concerns that we are going to
re-compete the contracts.
MR. BOOZMAN. I am an optometrist, an eye doctor, so any of
you all that are here, if you are having problems with your glasses
or your contacts or advice on your cataracts, I can do that after
the Committee meeting is over. But one of the things that we were
governed with were the Stark Rules it prevented self-dealing. Is
the VA, under those same sort of rules? Are you familiar with the
Stark Rules?
MS. CADEN. I am not. No.
MR. BOOZMAN. Okay. Basically, as an eye doctor, you could
not do things with medicare and medicaid, as far as, having your
own labs, so that you order tests that the government’s paying for
that is basically your business also. For instance, if you were a
psychiatrist and on the counseling service, then you couldn't refer
to your own counseling service. Does that make sense?
MS. CADEN. Well, what Dr. Braun was just saying and I will
answer this is that there is a code of ethics involved with our own
counselors and what they can and can’t do. But, did you want to
expand on that?
MR. BRAUN. Mainly to say, yes, that we are not necessarily
familiar with the acronym or the phrasing that you are using, but
the effort to make sure that individuals are not referring to their
own practice and things of that sort is an effort of oversight that
we do have in place or are working on.
MR. BOOZMAN. So you mentioned ethics. And sadly, we had
ethics too. But some people are not ethical and so in the
early '90's, we had to adopt the Stark. The sad thing is that there
is always people out there gaming the system. And if we just do
have an ethic situation, then I think it’s important that we don't
have situations where you self-deal. And so I would like to know a
little bit more about what we are doing about that. And then if we
do need to address that maybe some advice where we specifically say
we are not going to self-deal and here is the penalty if you do do
it.
MS. CADEN. We can develop that for you. I do want to say
that every time we have a conference, and we do those yearly, we have
a fairly detailed session on ethics. And we bring in a guest
speaker to talk about that. And then there are certifications that
have to come from that. But I will provide more information for you.
MR. BOOZMAN. Well, we are all having fairly detailed
conversations about ethics. And then also the statutes that are in
place that if you go beyond that, that you get yourself in big
trouble, which is appropriate. Ms. Herseth.
MS. HERSETH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Caden, thank you
for your testimony today and the insights. And I do appreciate
your willingness to provide us with status updates on how the
relationship is working as you seek to overcome some of the
challenges that were mentioned before between the two agencies.
I remember last year a lot of back and forth. And I
remember when GAO was here, I mean, we kind of kept the pressure on
to get that memorandum signed and in. And I think what is most
important for our follow up, you had mentioned, you know, your
department's follow up as it related to the contracting services
and oversight. The Subcommittee’s follow up has to be, you know,
that we continue to get some information from you that others have
input on how we are overcoming the challenges, what the strategic
plans are. If there is one agency or the other that is not being
quite as responsive as the other one, those are things that we need
to know, follow up with on a fairly regular basis.
So I appreciate your willingness to do that. And, you know,
perhaps, Mr. Ciccolella you certainly work with us in that regard as
well. And I appreciate the Chairman spoke to asking you to further
describe the vulnerabilities that the IG report identified. So I
appreciate that elaboration on your part.
And you had mentioned in terms of the new NAS that you are
going to be starting to improve, not only from the IG report, but
your own sense of what needed to happen. You described some of the
steps that you are going to take to improve those contract
management oversight plans, including the additional site visits,
further review. Which leads me to the question of whether or not
to your knowledge VA has ever conducted a study on the cost
associated with providing oversight and management of VR&E contract
services, including staff resources and the training for both areas
of the site visits for the review and elsewhere?
MS. CADEN. I have not seen a study like that. We could
probably go back and start to breakout those costs for you in those
different areas, but I have not seen it laid out that way. But we
can do that.
MS. HERSETH. Thank you. And Mr. Chairman, I would yield
back.
MR. BOOZMAN. Thank you. Mr. Frye, how would you describe
VA's overall contracting processes and how many warranted contracting
officers does the VA have? How many of those are directly in your
chain of command?
MR. FRYE. The VA has over 701 contracting officers. With
regard to this contract, or these contracts, 241 contracts, there
was one warranted contracting officer that put 241 contracts in
place in a central office. And these were IDIQ contracts,
Indefinite Delivery Indefinite Quantity contracts. And then orders
are placed against those contracts out in the field.
Those orders are placed by warranted contracting officers.
They hold warrants that equate to $100,000 or less. And they place
orders against these contracts, these 241 contracts, for the
services that are needed out in the field.
MR. BOOZMAN. Does the 40 hour training courses for
contracting officers technical representatives, does that include
testing? Who supervises the course and the testing?
MR. FRYE. Is the question to me, Mr. Chairman?
MR. BOOZMAN. Just to whoever. Whoever knows the answer.
MR. FRYE. I do not know if these contracting officers take
a test. They do receive 40 hours of training. And they are
warranted by the head of the contracting activity out in the field.
They are not warranted by me because their warrants are $100,000 or
less.
MR. BOOZMAN. You mentioned a number of contracting warranted
VR&E and assistant VR&E officers. You have a number currently. Are
you comfortable with the number of folks that you have got?
MS. CADEN. Well, I can answer for VR&E. I think we are
comfortable with the number, but we are looking to maybe shift some
of those responsibilities. As FTE becomes available we would like
to have maybe some contract specialists in each of the offices or a
combination of offices and let the counselors get back, because
these are counselors who are acting in this capacity, and let them
get back to working with the veteran on an actual counseling basis
and shift some of the responsibility for the management of contracts
to a different individual. But right now, I think, because we have
at least two in each office and a number of others that work as the
COTRs, we are okay.
MR. BOOZMAN. Who oversees the contracting actions?
MS. CADEN. Well basically it would be the VR&E officer.
But there is a contracting specialist in my office that I have
asked to kind of oversee everything going on out there. And then
they also work very much with Mr. Frye’s organization.
MR. BOOZMAN. So is that person the national contracting
officer?
MS. CADEN. The national contracting officer is part of
that organization. I have a contracting specialist on my staff who
works very closely with them.
MR. BOOZMAN. Okay. Very good. Have you got any other
things, Ms. Herseth?
MS. HERSETH. No, I don't.
MR. BOOZMAN. Have you got any other things? Mr. Campbell,
have you got any questions?
MR. CAMPBELL. Yes, please. Go ahead.
MR. BOOZMAN. Okay. Just a couple of more things and then
we will get you out of here. What are the range of costs associated
with each of the three categories of contract services and did VA
conduct market surveys to determine what the should cost process for
each category and region?
MS. CADEN. We did do market surveys. And we have been
updating those as much as possible. Especially getting ready for
the next generation, the next NAS. I do not know the pricings.
Jerry, do you?
MR. BRAUN. We do not have specific numbers on that right
now. But I think we could get it.
MR. BOOZMAN. Okay. In follow up can you provide us a copy
of the draft of the statement of work now under the departmental
review?
MS. CADEN. It’s with Mr. Frye’s office right now. But I am
sure we can do that. It's been drafted and it's going through the
concurrence process.
MR. BOOZMAN. Good. Thank you. Well, thank you all very
much for your testimony. And I do appreciate your hard work. And I
really want to commend VR&E for responding to the Inspector
General's findings as a means to maintain the integrity of their
program.
You know, the function that we are tasked with is oversight,
of these things. And then you are tasked with that also. We very
much want to give you the tools. I have got all the confidence in
the world, our duty is to ask the questions and find out what is
going on. Your duty is to do the same thing and make sure that it
is going right. And then like I say, we do want to give you the
tools that you need to do that function. That is what the American
public expects out of us.
So, we are a little bit concerned about, I think, the larger
issue within VR&E regarding contract management and things. So,
probably we will come back and do some more things in the not too
distant future specifically concerning that and the contracting
programs at VA.
We are also a little concerned, or just really want some
more information about the VR&E that is staffed at the local
levels. And I think what we would like to do, and you all can
perhaps help us maybe in brainstorming, facilitating. You know,
if we can get the states together and try and foster a little bit
more cooperation and really would like to hear from VA and VETS as
to how that might be done. Things like the differences in the
educational levels. You know, what we are seeing, and how that
affects things. So, again, that is something that we would also
like to follow up on. So, unless Ms. Herseth has anything else.
MS. HERSETH. Did Mr. Ciccolella testify yet?
MR. BOOZMAN. No. He is just here.
MR. CAMPBELL. He needs to speak.
MR. BOOZMAN. Okay. I am sorry. We almost left you out.
It is your turn to speak.
STATEMENT OF CHARLES S. CICCOLELLA, ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR THE
VETERANS' EMPLOYMENT AND TRAINING, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF LABOR
MR. CICCOLELLA. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Herseth.
Congressman Campbell. Thank you very much for the
opportunity to appear before the Committee and talk about the
relationship and the new cooperation between the Department of
Veterans' Affairs and their Vocational Rehabilation employment
program and the Department of Labor’s Veterans Employment and
Training Service.
VR&E and VETS have a history of cooperation. We had an MOA
in the 1990's. We have done a partnership guide. There has been
joint training. But with the signing of the Memorandum of Agreement
that Judy and I signed in October, I think it’s a dramatic step
forward. And I think it’s a dramatic step forward because I think
we have the commitment of both agencies to bring the resources of
both of the agencies together to improve employment outcomes.
And not only outcomes, but also improve the quality of employment
for the VR&E participants.
In other words, employment in the jobs that are going to
last. The jobs of the Twenty-first Century. And to make that work
better, we have to also get the active participation of the state
workforce agencies because the American workforce system, which
centers on that one stop career center, is an integrated delivery
system for which business and the employers are the customer.
That is something that VETS and the Department of Labor brings to
the table.
Now with regard to the performance of the VR&E program and
the VETS cooperation, I think we are doing better. The numbers are
up for fiscal year 2005. As part of the MOA, as Judy mentioned, we
are also working on three work groups; the data sharing work group,
I think that will be very important; performance measures for the
partnership, I am very interested in seeing how that will go; and
the national Veterans’ National Training Institute Development of a
training curriculum is a work group. And that will be, if not the
most important work group, probably one of the most important.
I would also like to say that the cooperation between
the Department of Labor and the VA extends beyond just VR&E and
VETS. We sit on the VA advisory Committee on rehabilitation;
advisory Committee on women veterans; and their advisory Committee
on homeless veterans. I personally sit on that Committee. We
participate in the VR&E development of the five-track program.
And I think similarly the VA participates on our transition
assistance program steering Committee. And that is an extremely
important Committee. It’s becoming more and more important as more
service members come back through the military and transition into
civilian life.
I think our collaborative efforts will continue to improve
and expand. I personally see our mutual goals, not only in terms
of more successful employment outcomes, and increased outcomes for
the VR&E clients, but also in working together to significantly
improve the smooth transition of our servicemembers from the
military, and particularly those who have been injured, wounded, or
disabled and moving them into the workforce.
I believe the commitment of both agencies to this goal is
absolute. I think that every one today realizes that no one agency
can do this alone. And it’s only by working across agency lines
that we will get anything done and we will improve the outcomes.
Mr. Chairman, that concludes my oral statement. I would
be happy to take your questions.
[The statement of Charles S. Ciccolella appears on p. 37]
MR. BOOZMAN. Thank you very much. Ms. Herseth.
MS. HERSETH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you,
Mr. Ciccolella. And thank you for further elaborating in your
testimony the working relationship between the agencies how it
goes beyond VR&E and VETS, as you just described. We appreciate
that and the commitment of the resources to go beyond, as you
mentioned, improving the outcomes to the quality of those
employment opportunities.
And as we were discussing earlier with Ms. Caden, I mean,
in terms of our oversight responsibility and as you begin to maybe
break some of these costs for oversight down, we need to make sure
that you have the resources that you need to do precisely what you
at this increase coordination that the MOA requires.
In your opinion, since the implementation of the VR&E
five-track system at the pilot project sites, has VETS seen a
corresponding improvement in placing such rehabilitated disabled
veterans into employment since the five-track has been implemented?
MR. CICCOLELLA. Well, when the five-track, as I understand
it, it’s still in a demonstration phase. It has not been
implemented fully. Is that right?
MS. CADEN. Well the pilot period is finished. We are
rolling it out --
MR. CICCOLELLA. Rolling it out now.
MS. CADEN. -- now in all the offices.
MR. CICCOLELLA. Well, let me put it this way. All of our
state directors, we have state directors of veterans’ employment and
training in each one of the states and territories. All of them are
very much aware of the importance and the priority we put on the
relationship between the voc rehab people in the states and the
VETS sponsored DVOPS and LVERS. We are requiring every one of,
our state directors, to update their Memorandum of Agreement.
And Judy Caden is requiring the same thing. We have seen an
increase for program year 2005 in the number of placements through
the employment system. In other words, the active involvement of
the disabled veteran outreach program specialists has been
beneficial.
But I don’t know whether it’s too early to tell if this is
really having an impact. It’s going to work where people drop the
barriers and work across agency lines and agree that the most
important thing is to serve our disabled veterans. And there are
certain pockets, and you mentioned Texas, Alabama, there are a
couple of other states that are not doing as well as other states.
But, we are seeing some really, really good ideas and
innovative practices. In your own state, in South Dakota, for
example, and in other states, where the program is working very well.
And it's working very well because we have got good leadership out
there on both sides.
MS. HERSETH. Well, I appreciate that. And I think you
answered my second question and perhaps started to allude to
addressing my third. The second question was just going to be in
your opinion how important it is to involve the state workforce
agencies in the plan, in the coordination, in the discussions
regarding that inter-agency interaction. And so I would assume that
based on what you said you feel it’s very important in part to
overcome any of those barriers that may still exist by being very
inclusive. To talk about what is most important and serving the
constituency here to improve those employment results.
MR. CICCOLELLA. Well, that is absolutely correct. You know,
we have a workforce system in this county. It’s a $14/$15 billion
investment every year. There is some great training opportunities
in that. Not all the states use all their workforce investment act
money.
The kind of neat thing about the situation today is that
Congress, in its wisdom and I think great foresight, when they passed
Public Law 107-288, they established priority of service for
veterans. And within that priority of service for all workforce
training programs, there are priorities for special disabled,
disabled, and then veterans.
So I think we are making significant progress there also in
terms of making certain that the workforce system understands that
when veterans come in for services, they get priority services. And
I travel a lot and I talked to an awful lot of people in Career One
Stops, the delivery service people, and I am seeing a lot of
improvement in that regard.
MS. HERSETH. Very good. I would yield back, Mr. Chairman.
MR. BOOZMAN. Are you getting any resistance from the state
employment services regarding DVOP station or the VR&E officers.
MR. CICCOLELLA. Not at all. We have not had that and
frankly, Mr. Chairman, we have got it written into the solicitation
for grant applications. And we do have a hammer, a lever on that,
because we have got the grant money and we have got the state
director who is monitoring that.
MR. BOOZMAN. This is really for both groups. Can you
describe the cross-training you are doing and your plans to expand
the initiative? I am sorry, I am mumbling. The cross-training.
Yes, ma'am.
MS. CADEN. Well, as an example, we have got training going
on right now to roll out our five-track system. And the DVOP and
LVERs and other people from DOL have been part of that training,
they are participating in it as we do it in regional areas. And they
have also been presenting that training. One of the work groups
that we have got formed is to develop joint training opportunities
working through the NVTI and a curriculum where we can both partake
of it. We did a couple of broadcasts as kind of a kickoff of that
joint training effort to make sure that the VR&E counselors in the
field, as well as the VETS people in the field, got the same message
on things like USERA and priority hiring authorities that are out
there. So we are trying to get the message out to both.
MR. CICCOLELLA. I would agree with what Judy has said.
It's important for both sides to understand the resources that the
other side brings to the table. And it also, knocks down some
barriers when you get these folks out and they realize that they are
really focused on the same mission.
MR. BOOZMAN. One of the things I know that myself and my
staff, Ms. Herseth and her staff, are really worried about are these
areas of hiring and employment. You know, we are blessed. The
un-employment rate overall is down. But we have got these pockets.
I am a member of the NATO Congress. And NATO -- those are our great
allies. That thing has served with time and doing very, very well.
And yet right now they are in the process of becoming a rapid
deployment force to respond to the needs as opposed to the old cold
war, when we had all the troops amassed to prevent a tank invasion.
So they are reinventing themselves.
I guess what I am wondering is, do we have the ability when
we hear of General Motors laying off 5,000 people or 3,000 people,
events like that, do we have to wait until we get that somehow
reported through the system and then months later it comes out, that
we have a problem there. Where literally, we know there is a
problem from the day that the announcement is made. Is there
ability or is there any thinking of how we could maybe respond to
those areas quicker than we are doing? Does that make sense?
MR. CICCOLELLA. Yes. It does. I think you have to respond
to it I believe in the context of, you know, what the workforce
system can do. And specifically with the veterans. With the GM
layoffs and the Ford layoffs we need to, track that pretty
carefully. It's not like 14 or 30,000 people are going to be laid
off right away like in Youngstown, Ohio, I think 18,000 people lost
their jobs up there in the steel mills. But it happens over time.
So that certainly gives the workforce system a sufficient
amount of time to respond. For example, in Virginia and North
Carolina when the PillowTex folks went under and they were bought
out. We put a team from the Department of Labor down there in
advance of the closings to do training and re-skill the workers in
both North Carolina and Virginia. And we had a veterans component
for that effort. And it's not easy to do when people are my age,
like in their 50's, to change jobs. But it's just the way things
are today. Where our jobs go away and we have jobs in this country,
five million, that we can’t fill because we don’t have the workers
with skills, then that workforce system needs to be responsive to
that.
And so that is what we did at PillowTex. We have done it
in a couple of other places. So if the question is does the system
have a capability to respond, you bet, it does have that capability to respond. And should respond.
MR. BOOZMAN. I guess what I would like to see, and again as
a very informal this is what we do in those situations. Almost like
FEMA goes in in an emergency. Because the situation that we are in
now is a little different with our manufacturing and things than it
has been in the past decades. The problem is, if you lose 5,000
jobs at the local auto plant, then the reality is that transfers to
probably 15,000 jobs throughout the system because there is so many
small vendors that are dependent in servicing that and the whole
deal.
So, again, it's just something that I would like to see us
do, and we would be glad to help in any way that we can, but I do
think that -- and I think FEMA is a good example of just in an
emergency that you go in. And we would like to see that happen with
a strong veterans component as part of that. Would you all agree
with that?
MR. CICCOLELLA. We would be happy to respond to that,
Mr. Chairman.
MR. BOOZMAN. Again, something that perhaps we can look at
later on. So, do you have any -- Mr. Campbell, have you got
anything you would like to add?
MR. CAMPBELL. One thing.
MR. BOOZMAN. Sure.
MR. CAMPBELL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. One of the things
being the new guy, this may be a silly question. But being the new
guy, I probably will do that frequently for at least a little while.
But one of the things you said, Mr. Ciccolella, I believe, if I have
not butchered your name too badly, was that one agency cannot do
this alone. What are the things -- why is that? What are the
things that -- you are collaborating I am hearing on a lot of
things -- what are the things that you cannot collaborate on?
MR. CICCOLELLA. Sure. Well, Congressman, if you use the
example of our partnership, the VA brings certain things to the
table with regard to the services that they can provide for the
servicemember, the injured servicemember or disabled servicemember.
They bring case management. They bring counseling. They bring
the medical efforts so that the individual is stabilized. They
bring the program that provides the tuition and the stipend so
that the individual can go through the training.
Now, VA is not necessarily an employment agency, although
they have employment coordinators. And some of their participants,
a number of them, are placed into employment. And their jobs are
lined up by the employment coordinators, but not all of them.
And so we have a system in the country, we have had it
since 1944, we had the veterans' employment representative in the
job centers or the unemployment centers at that time. And in the
1980's because we had so many veterans from the Vietnam era who
were unemployed, that is what created the disabled veteran
outreach program specialists. So we have two categories of veteran
employment representatives in the workforce system.
And that DVOP or disabled veteran outreach program
specialist, his or her job is to focus on veterans with barriers.
But when you have significant disabilities, such as the Chapter 31
clients do, then the DVOP is trained to do a high level of case
management as well. And more importantly, that person has access
to the services of the workforce system. And that is not only the
job counseling and job searches and the resume writing and the
training for interviewing skills and things like that, but also
the all of the resources of America’s workforce system that he or
she can bring to bear for that veteran.
So the functions, the missions are truly complimentary.
And if you are not working across agency lines collaboratively, then
frankly some people in this program, the VR&E program, will fall
through the crack because they will have to get their own jobs, or
they will go back home and do whatever, or they will go, back to
school.
And it will be a while before they get into employment. And
that is real important, especially with young veterans because young
veterans have a tough time making the transition. And if they are
disabled, or severely wounded or injured, then it’s even more
difficult. They have got significant barriers to employment.
VA can address some of those barriers and the Labor
Department can address some of those. But if we work together we
are going to be a lot more successful.
MR. CAMPBELL. Okay. Thank you.
MR. BOOZMAN. Do you have anything else Ms. Herseth? Very
good. I appreciate the testimony from you, Mr. Ciccolella and
Ms. Caden and Mr. Braun and Mr. Frye. I really do appreciate your
working together in the spirit that you are trying to get these
things done. And certainly, again, that is our mission is to help
you in any way that we can. And to move these things forward. So,
thank you very much for appearing. We appreciate your testimony
and the meeting stands adjourned.
MR. CICCOLELLA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
[Whereupon, at 11:00 a.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]