Wednesday, January 14, 2009 at 6:45 am
Gaza: Civilians Under Siege (2)
Update on the humanitarian crisis in Gaza:
UPDATE:
“At least 1,000 people have reportedly been killed.”
Statement by Palestinian National Initiative, Wednesday:
At least 1,000 people have reportedly been killed (including more than 300 children and 100 women), and more than 5,000 have sustained heavy injuries, including 411 seriously wounded. Two-thirds of the casualties are civilians and one-third of the deaths and wounded are Gazan children.
Dr. Mustafa Barghouthi, the secretary of the Palestinian National Initiative, emphasised today on the incredible danger and pressure that medical teams are facing in the Gaza Strip.
"Previous to the beginning of the attacks, the heath sector of the Gaza Strip was already on the edge of collapse after 14 months of closure, siege and blockade", said the Deputy. "Today, after 19 consecutive days of war and permanent attacks, the heath sector has collapsed. Unharmed terrorized civilians have nowhere to flee and the severe wounded cannot be taken abroad for adequate treatment.”
UPDATE:
"What then goes through the mind of a child who is trapped in such relentless violence?"
Statement by Ann M. Veneman, executive director of UNICEF, Wednesday:
Over 300 children have been killed and more than 1,500 wounded, since the beginning of the Gaza crisis on 27 December, 2008.
Each day more children are being hurt, their small bodies wounded, their young lives shattered.
These are not just cold figures. They talk of children's lives interrupted. No human being can watch this without being moved. No parent can witness this and not see their own child.
This is tragic. This is unacceptable.
The crisis in Gaza is singular in that children and their families have nowhere to escape, no refuge. The very thought of being trapped in a closed area is disturbing for adults in peace times. What then goes through the mind of a child who is trapped in such relentless violence?
Children form the majority of the population of Gaza. They are bearing the brunt of a conflict which is not theirs. As fighting reaches the heart of heavily populated urban areas, the impact of lethal weapons will carry an even heavier toll on children. Absolute priority must be given to their protection.
Beyond the immediate needs of the children who have lost their homes, have no access to water, electricity and medicine, beyond the horrific physical scars and injuries however, are the deeper psychological wounds of these children. For these children, psychological and social healing will be long and difficult.
Only when there is a cessation of hostilities can children begin the long journey back to a semblance of what is the most fundamental right of a child, the right to a life free from physical and mental violence.
UNICEF calls on all parties to take every measure to protect children.
“We have a Security Council resolution demanding an immediate and enduring ceasefire. In the name of humanity and international law, this resolution must be observed.”
UN Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon, starting a Middle East tour today, “to demonstrate my deep concern and empathy for the innocents caught in these terrible circumstances, both in Israel and the Occupied Territory”:
My message is simple, direct and to the point: the fighting must stop. To both sides, I say: Just stop, now. Too many people have died. There has been too much civilian suffering. Too many people, Israelis and Palestinians, live in daily fear of their lives. And in Gaza, the very foundation of society is being destroyed: people's homes, civic infrastructure, public health facilities and schools. We have a Security Council resolution demanding an immediate and enduring ceasefire. In the name of humanity and international law, this resolution must be observed. I expect the parties now meeting in Cairo to do what is required. They must agree to the elements of an immediate ceasefire. At a minimum, that means a halt to rocket attacks by Hamas militants and a withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza. It is time to stop. It is time to stop the killing and the destruction.
“At least 900 killed.”
B'Tselem Israeli human rights group on casualties:
Gaza: at least 900 killed, of them at least 270 children and 95 women. Over 4,200 injured, of them over 400 severely injured (Palestinian Ministry of Health figures).
Israel: 3 civilians and 7 soldiers killed. Over 82 civilians injured, of them 4 severely injured, not including those treated for shock, and 61 soldiers injured, of them one in critical condition.
“What I saw today was shocking.”
Jakob Kellenberger, president of the International Committee of the Red Cross, visiting Shifa hospital in Gaza, Tuesday:
It is really very sad and it hurts a lot when you see what I have just seen. Both parties must ensure that all victims are cared for rapidly, at all times of day. In particular, the wounded must be evacuated and receive treatment. Injured people cannot wait for days, or even for hours, before being treated. The work of medical personnel must be respected – and this is not negotiable. What I saw today was shocking. It is unacceptable to see so many wounded people. Their lives must be spared and the security of those who care for them guaranteed.
“Gaza's 1.5 million people are enduring a serious humanitarian crisis.”
Report on Gaza by Human Rights Watch issued Tuesday: Deprived and Endangered: Humanitarian Crisis in the Gaza Strip:
Gaza's 1.5 million people are enduring a serious humanitarian crisis brought on by more than two weeks of major military operations that have magnified the impact of 19 months of a highly restrictive Israeli blockade, reinforced by Egypt.
The Israeli government has repeatedly denied that a humanitarian crisis exists. Information from international humanitarian organizations, United Nations agencies and Gaza's residents themselves starkly refute that claim. Hundreds of civilians have been killed in the fighting, a large percentage of them children. Many wounded and sick have been trapped in their homes, unable to get medical care. Corpses have been left among rubble and in destroyed homes because Israeli forces have at times denied access to medical crews. Increasing numbers are displaced or are trapped in their homes. They have nowhere to flee, caught in a warzone where no place is truly safe.
Gaza's civilians are facing dire shortages of food, water, cooking gas, fuel and medical care due to insecurity, the enforced closure of all of Gaza's borders, and alleged serious violations of international humanitarian law. Electricity is sharply down, and in some places open sewage is spilling into the streets.
Children, who make up 56 percent of Gaza's residents, are especially vulnerable. Those in hospitals are getting only rudimentary care from facilities that lack equipment, material and personnel. Many of those whose medical needs cannot be met by Gaza hospitals - including cardiovascular surgery and neurosurgery - have been unable to access medical care in Israel or Egypt.
Israel has permitted only a limited number of critically injured patients to enter Israel since the start of the current military operations. Egypt is also preventing timely evacuations of severely wounded from Gaza, despite pledges from Turkey and Qatar, among others, to receive the wounded at Egypt's Rafah border crossings and evacuate them to hospitals in third countries. The water, sewage and electricity infrastructure - already severely debilitated by the blockade - is now stretched to a breaking point. The World Bank and the World Health Organization have warned of the dire consequences of epidemics from the discontinuation of vaccinations, lack of garbage collection and contaminated water.
An unknown number of Gazans have been traumatized by two weeks of air, sea and ground-based attacks in a small, confined area that lacks safe areas and from which escape is nearly impossible. Israeli military strikes have hit on or near at least two UN buildings operating as emergency shelters, in one case killing 40 people.
--By Scott MacLeod/Cairo
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About The Middle East Blog
Tim McGirk, TIME's Jerusalem Bureau Chief, arrived in the Middle East after covering Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. Read more
Scott MacLeod, TIME's Cairo Bureau Chief since 1998, has covered the Middle East and Africa for the magazine for 22 years. Read more
Andrew Lee Butters moved to Beirut in 2003, and began working for TIME in Iraq during the Fallujah uprising of 2004. Read more
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Wednesday, January 14, 2009 at 8:21 am
Hamas has only one goal; the annihilation of Israel and the Jewish people. Logic does not work against hatred. Ask any African-American on a dark night in the deep south. It's the force of the Federal government as well as media attention to the criminal not the victim (it's all your fault, if you were not alive we wouldn't have to kill you) that has cut, not ended lynching. That being said...how many convoys of goods has Egypt allowed into Gaza? When has the UN forcefully complained or did anything to stop the murder in Darfur. How many refugees from Darfur are allowed in Muslim countries? Answer to both questions...none. So please stop living in la-la land and recognise Israel's right to live in peace.
Wednesday, January 14, 2009 at 8:25 am
On January 5, 2009 I sent the following LETTER TO UN President General Assembly United Nations...
Subject:Creation of Israeli war crimes tribunal...
The current massacre happening in Gaza is of urgent concern to me and all people of conscience, for these attacks which bear all the trademarks of war crime demand a war crimes tribunal...
The 1.5 million open air prisoners of "the world's biggest concentration camp" are forced to continue to collectively-pay for democratically-electing Hamas...
While the Israeli authorities punish the Palestinians in order to teach Hamas a lesson, the INNOCENT pay the highest price!..
Israel is refusing ceasefire requests, in spite of Hamas offering it on the basis of reasonable and attainable compromises:
"an end to the blockade, and an Israeli ceasefire on the West Bank", according to Yuval Diskin, current head of Israeli security services Shin Bet...
Also, in light of the current attacks which have sparked international condemnation, Archbishop Desmund Tutu said: "In the context of total aerial supremacy, in which one side in a conflict deploys lethal aircraft against opponents with no means of defending themselves, the bombardment bears all the hallmarks of war crimes."
...Over the past 2 months, fuel supply to Gaza has been blocked leading to the closure of its power plant, and even the U.N. has been forced to halt distribution of food aid, upon which most Gazans are reliant. The actions of the Israeli authorities violate the Geneva Conventions and so many international norms. It is now more necessary than ever for the U.N. to establish an International Criminal Tribunal for Israel (ICTI), under U.N. Charter Article 22. Failure to create viable accountability would only further embolden the Israeli government to continue their extermination of the Palestinians....
As the crimes committed against Palestinians degrade all humanity, we request you to urge members of the U.N. General Assembly to swiftly take necessary and appropriate action towards creating an ICTI under U.N.Charter Article 22, and holding the Israeli government accountable...
I HOPE the 'fierce urgency of now' moves the world to unite and END the Siege on Gaza and End the Occupation of Palestine which is the ONLY way to security for Israel...
Eileen Fleming, Author, Founder WAWA:
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
Producer "30 Minutes With Vanunu" and "13 Minutes with Vanunu"
"HOPE has two children. The first is ANGER at the way things are. The second is COURAGE to DO SOMETHING about it."-St. Augustine
Wednesday, January 14, 2009 at 9:39 am
The crisis in Gaza is actually democracy's ugliest face. Like any other format of government democracy has it's own drawbacks. Israel has elections next year, the ignition of the current war is simply ruling paties despeate attempts to remain in power. Ruling party just wanted to show it's people that it is not weak and it can take the difficult decisions too. Netanyahu wanted to cash it's check of government weakness in the next election, and the ruling party had to be seen doing something.
Actually the scenario is not local to middle east at all, in fact it is as old as democracy itself.
For instance In the world's biggest democracy extremest party actually got into power by promoting hatred between different sects of the society during the last decade. People with good memories and some conscience will be remind of India's BJP in 90's, and how the got to power after the Gujrat riots that left 2000 HUMANS dead. I like to emphasise on the word 'humans' since our beloved media often fail to appreciate that there is no differance.
The latest war itself is, I'm afraid, not a war at all between Hamas and IDF, it is simply IDF punishing palestinian Joe the Plumber for voting for Hamas, palestinians ate being taught a lesson for choosing a government that was not approved by Israel.
In the end I would like to comment about president-elect Obama's silence on this war. I think it is one of those dirty things Mr. Obama doesn't want to get his hands dirty with. I think Mr. Obama simply told the Israeli government that they should just do what the have to do before his administration assume reigns. So, this little ugly incident doesn't dirty his immaculate résumé.
A couple of days ago I saw something on CNN that broke my heart. I saw a program called "cycle of crisis", I always respected the impartiality of CNN, but this time it almost felt like it has been taken over by IDF. I saw some rockets being fired in israel and and some injured people in Israel and a snippet about 30,000 rockets fired on Israel, and than something about angry war of survival from Israel.
I really think that the person who made this presentation is gifted, because he almost made a case for Israel, it wasn't for the facts coming in from the ground of course.
It is even sad how Mr. Ban ki-moon asked BOTH the parties to stop the war immedietly! This is rediculous, how many rockets are being fired by Hamas each day? And how many HUMANS are being killed by IDF each day on the other side of the border.
This not a war at all, it is just punishment for Palestinians for voting for the evil Hamas. This wrath is only one sided.
And the people being killed are not victim of war, but victim of democracy!
P.s. I appologize for any typing errors, since I am writing from my cell.
Wednesday, January 14, 2009 at 10:01 am
The defenders of Israel could talk for days about anything, they can send up endless justifications and rationales and historical precedents, but nothing they can say will bring those hundreds of childrens' corpses back to life in Gaza.
Immediate ceasefire now!
Wednesday, January 14, 2009 at 10:09 am
Mohummad, it's a punishment for Hamas firing rockets into Israel. How do you not understand that? If Israel wanted to punish the Gazans for electing Hamas, it could have done it much sooner.
•
And why is it ridiculous to ask both sides to stop fighting? This drives me crazy. The Palestinian sympathizers are completely oblivious to the fact the Israel is reactive, not proactive. Israel didn't start bombing Gaza until after SEVERAL THOUSAND rockets had been fired by Hamas. For you sympathizers to pardon this behavior is inexcusable at best and idiotic at worst. Hamas is a self-destructive organization, and if you took of the blinders of Israel-hate, you'd see that. Hamas can't be reasoned with because it won't budge on it's founding principle--the destruction of Israel. That means Hamas is more than willing to continue its attacks on Israel, so Israel has to either do nothing (which it did for 2 years to no avail) or get violent.
•
Violence occurs when diplomacy fails. Diplomacy fails when persuasion is ineffective. Persuasion is ineffective when one or both sides refuse to compromise. Hamas refuses to compromise. Israel has shown it's ability to compromise by withdrawing its settlements and all its military. What has Hamas done? Fire rockets. Why? First, it wants to destroy Israel (a futile goal, but one they are willing to sacrifice Palestinian lives for), and second, because nothing Israel does is good enough. There's always one more complaint. And that's great way for Hamas to draw attention away from the fact that in the 2 years its been in power the lives of Palestinians in Gaza haven't improved, yet Hamas military might did improve. If Hamas and the thugs that control the smuggling tunnels were more concerned with the living conditions of their brethern, then maybe all the time, effort, and money it took to smuggle in munitions could have been used to smuggle in medicine, food, clothes, books, etc. But those things don't contribute to the destruction of Israel. Hamas's chickens have come home to roost.
Wednesday, January 14, 2009 at 11:27 am
As usual, Time's Cairo Bureau Chief doesn't file a report about Cairo or Egypt (but, after all, who can blame him? If he did he would probably have had legs broken for him by now). However, why does he always focus on Egypt's Eastern border and the 1,000 Palestinians killed (assuming the Palestinians are not lying as usual). Why doesn't he focus for once on Sudan and the 800,000 civilians killed there? After all, it's not that far. Refugees have walked all the way from Sudan to within 100 meters of Israel's borders. Unfortunately, just when they are close to freedom, they are then shot in the back by Egyptian borders guards. Egyptian border guards have been un able to prevent tons of military equipment from entering Gaza, but they are very good at preventing Christian Sudanese from entering Israel. How many have they killed Scott ? 20? 30? 40? What a big surprise that not one or your blogs mentions this !!! Well, anyway, if the Sudanese can walk almost to the border of Israel, it seems to me Time's "cracked" correspondant can drive a car to Sudan. Tell us Scott: Are you worried the Egyptians might shoot you in the back if you try to enter into Sudan ??? Please Scott....They won't shot you, you're their friend, aren't you ???
Wednesday, January 14, 2009 at 12:00 pm
"My message is simple, direct, and to the point:...Secy.Gen UN
So is mine.
There was a young lady from Niger
(or was it Gaza)
Who smiled as she rode on a tiger.
They returned from the ride
With the lady inside,
And a smile on the face of the tiger.
Anonymous
Wars do not end until the "innocent" suffer
enough that they demand an end, offer unconditional
surrender and provide an assurance of a lasting peace.
Annoying the Tiger and then complaining when it bites
you is just plain stupid. Hamas wanted war. Got their
wish. Now their "innocent" will be forced to suffer the
consequence of that stupidity.
Wednesday, January 14, 2009 at 1:28 pm
Would you like to know why Israel doesn't care that children are killed by their war machine(s)? It's because it's inherent in their religious believes. Here are a couple of quotes from the Talmud, their holiest of holy books:
Yebamoth 98a. "All gentile children are animals."
Abodah Zarah 36b. "Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth."
you want anonther?.. Here:
Sanhedrin 57a . "When a Jew murders a gentile, there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep."
Baba Kamma 37b. "The gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God has "exposed their money to Israel."
There are hundreds more. Does this explain why Israel is very casually killing Palestinians?
BTW, I challenge ANYONE to dispute that those statements exist in the Talmud.
Wednesday, January 14, 2009 at 2:07 pm
I don't know about the Talmud, but I do know that the neo-con ideolgy of empire and the heresy of the cult of 'Christian' Zionists are a match made in hell.......
In 2005, in the Chapter 9/11 and The Gulfport Blues from "KEEP HOPE ALIVE" I wrote:
...what a farce the so-called disengagement in Gaza was. The Israeli government still controls all access to Gaza by land, sea, and air. Bargouthi documented that only 25 of over 150 settlements will be dismantled, and only 8,475 of over 436,000 settlers [less than 2 percent of settlers] have been evacuated. Meanwhile, in the past year, 12,800 new settlers have moved into the West Bank--50 percent more settlers than were evacuated.”
.........“This is no withdrawal, this is BS! Until Palestinians have control of Gaza's borders and a guaranteed passage between Gaza and the West Bank, it is not a withdrawal; it's just BS propaganda! The corruption in the PA government and hot tempers from those under occupation are a powder keg that's getting ready to blow!
.........What's it going to take to wake the world up to the fact that most of our problems with radical Islamist fundamentalist militants leads us back to the conflict in Israel and Palestine? All roads do indeed lead to Jerusalem. What's it going to take before the International community gets it together and insists, in unity, upon the upholding of international law as the rule we all live by? And that includes Israel and America, too, for both ratified the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I wonder, what's the point of signing on, but then not doing it?
.........“What's it going to take to wake up the legions of blind U.S. Christian Zionists to their indifference to the misery of their sisters and brothers in Israel and Palestine? Their blind allegiance to the Israeli government has allowed our best friend in the world to become a big bully. What's it going to take to break through the ignorance that hard-earned U.S. tax dollars are being used to continue the occupation and apartheid wall?”
Eileen Fleming, Author, Founder WAWA:
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
Producer "30 Minutes With Vanunu" and "13 Minutes with Vanunu"
Wednesday, January 14, 2009 at 3:49 pm
I'm sorry for posting this to your blog, Scott, but I am still waiting on someone to justify this to me:
http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v650/42/40/1292398696/n1292398696_226201_9325.jpg
and
http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v650/42/40/1292398696/n1292398696_226197_6785.jpg
War crimes will not go unpunished.
Wednesday, January 14, 2009 at 3:57 pm
New York Times
.
Hamas Fighters Display Mix of Swagger and Fear
.
By TAGHREED EL-KHODARY and SABRINA TAVERNISE
Published: January 13, 2009
.
In a different part of town, another young fighter and his wife were getting ready to go see her brother, 20, who had been wounded in southwest Gaza City two nights ago while bringing food to fighters. The fighter, 27, in dark jeans and Timberland-style boots, swaggered with words about Islam and duty to his people. Hamas is doctrinally opposed to Israel's right to exist.
.
“It's either victory while alive, or martyrdom,” he said. “Both ways are victory.”
.
His wife, in a white head scarf, agreed.
.
“Two days ago, he was very tired and he didn't want to leave the house,” she said. “I told him you have to leave, you have a responsibility.”
.
But the sight of her brother unconscious in the hospital bed seemed to jolt the couple into an alternate reality, one where they were vulnerable and afraid. The man's eyes glistened with tears as he asked the doctor question after question.
.
Back outside, the woman regained her composure.
.
“I prefer you as a martyr,” she said to her husband.
.
“What if I am injured?” he asked.
.
She repeated her preference for death.
.
He took up the accusation that Hamas fighters hid behind civilians. Fighters, in a way, are both, he argued, and are accepted by many residents as defenders. People bring them food, he said. Sometimes they oppose rockets being launched nearby, but often they do not.
.
“I'm a civilian, and I'm a fighter,” he said.
.
Wednesday, January 14, 2009 at 4:05 pm
New York Times.
.
By JEFFREY GOLDBERG
Published: January 13, 2009
Op-Ed Contributor
Why Israel Can't Make Peace With Hamas
.
...Periodically, advocates of negotiation suggest that the hostility toward Jews expressed by Hamas is somehow mutable. But in years of listening, I haven't heard much to suggest that its anti-Semitism is insincere. Like Hezbollah, Hamas believes that God is opposed to a Jewish state in Palestine. Both groups are rhetorically pitiless, though, again, Hamas sometimes appears to follow the lead of Hezbollah.
.
I once asked Abdel Aziz Rantisi where he learned what he called “the truth” of the Holocaust — that it didn't happen — and he referred me to books published by Hezbollah. Hamas and Hezbollah also share the view that the solution for Palestine lies in Europe. A spokesman for Hezbollah, Hassan Izzedine, once told me that the Jews who survive the Muslim “liberation” of Palestine “can go back to Germany, or wherever they came from.” He went on to argue that the Jews are a “curse to anyone who lives near them.”
.
Nizar Rayyan expressed much the same sentiment the night we spoke in 2006. We had been discussing a passage of the Koran that suggests that God turns a group of impious Jews into apes and pigs. The Hezbollah leader, Hassan Nasrallah, among others, has deployed this passage in his speeches. Once, at a rally in Beirut, he said: “We shout in the face of the killers of prophets and the descendants of the apes and pigs: We hope we will not see you next year. The shout remains, ‘Death to Israel!'”
.
Mr. Rayyan said that, technically, Mr. Nasrallah was mistaken. “Allah changed disobedient Jews into apes and pigs, it is true, but he specifically said these apes and pigs did not have the ability to reproduce,” Mr. Rayyan said. “So it is not literally true that Jews today are descended from pigs and apes, but it is true that some of the ancestors of Jews were transformed into pigs and apes, and it is true that Allah continually makes the Jews pay for their crimes in many different ways. They are a cursed people.”
.
I asked him the question I always ask of Hamas leaders: Could you agree to anything more than a tactical cease-fire with Israel? I felt slightly ridiculous asking: A man who believes that God every now and again transforms Jews into pigs and apes might not be the most obvious candidate for peace talks at Camp David. Mr. Rayyan answered the question as I thought he would, saying that a long-term cease-fire would be unnecessary, because it will not take long for the forces of Islam to eradicate Israel.
.
There is a fixed idea among some Israeli leaders that Hamas can be bombed into moderation. This is a false and dangerous notion. It is true that Hamas can be deterred militarily for a time, but tanks cannot defeat deeply felt belief.
.
The reverse is also true: Hamas cannot be cajoled into moderation. Neither position credits Hamas with sincerity, or seriousness.
.
The only small chance for peace today is the same chance that existed before the Gaza invasion: The moderate Arab states, Europe, the United States and, mainly, Israel, must help Hamas's enemy, Fatah, prepare the West Bank for real freedom, and then hope that the people of Gaza, vast numbers of whom are unsympathetic to Hamas, see the West Bank as an alternative to the squalid vision of Hassan Nasrallah and Nizar Rayyan.
.
Wednesday, January 14, 2009 at 4:06 pm
ctgx -
.
Medicine, food, clothes, books etc. ARE brought in through the tunnels. Every transit point into Gaza is closed. How did you think stuff gets into Gaza otherwise?
.
Also, framing the Israel's choices in terms of do nothing about the rockets or get violent is a false choice. I do believe there are more than just two ways to respond to the rockets.
.
As for your absolute platitudes: violence does not always occur after diplomacy fails -- diplomacy generally fails when violence occurs; persuasion never becomes ineffective, only the approach; and when both sides refuse to compromise then it often takes a third party with leverage over both to force them to compromise (i.e. China over the US and North Korea).
.
There are two issues that have gotten in the way of peace a thousand times: the refugee issue and the capital city issue. Palestinians want the refugees to have full right of return; Israel doesn't. Palestinians want East Jerusalem as their capital; Israel wants Jerusalem to remain undivided. But these two issues aren't even part of this war.
.
And you pound the table against Hamas "sympathizers", accusing them of pardoning the rocket fire, when no one here is sympathizing with Hamas but sympathizing with the innocent civilians who are dying. Personally I think Hamas needs to be given a swift kick out of power, but I hate the fact that Israel is apparently showing very little regard for civilian lives, shelling schools and mosques and homes, anything at all with the appearance of being used by Hamas. I know Hamas uses civilians as shields and hides weapons in mosques. I know they launch rockets next to schools. But is it really necessary to return fire every damn time? Was it really worth the price when Israel shelled that UN school? Is it worth damaging and scaring an entire new generation of Palestinians who will hate you because you killed their parents when you bombed their house?
.
This latest war seems pretty counter-productive to me. The international community had better capitalize on this tragedy and pull some form of sustainable peace out of this rubble or all these deaths will be for nothing.
Wednesday, January 14, 2009 at 4:11 pm
Ha'Aretz
Hamas: We accept Egypt's proposal for Gaza truce - with reservations
.
By Avi Issacharoff and Natasha Mozgovaya, Haaretz Correspondents and Reuters
.
Mohammed Nasser, a member of Hamas' political bureau who was present in the talks, voiced reservations regarding the announcement that the Egyptian proposal was acceptable to Hamas, saying that Hamas' willingness to cooperate with Egyptian efforts did not mean that they had accepted the proposal. "There are still clauses under discussion and we are still pushing the issue," he said.
.
Arab diplomats say Hamas is reluctant to accept a long-term ceasefire agreement right away.
Wednesday, January 14, 2009 at 4:14 pm
Jacob, ever hear of posting a link, a summary, or an excerpt?
Wednesday, January 14, 2009 at 4:17 pm
A re-post of link in my previous comment.
There are pictures of war consequences out of Gaza and Israel while journalists are being denied access in most parts, but pictures speaks for it self much more powerfully than words can, share and add this site and other pictures of wars, any wars in everyplace that you do leave comments, it's a good deed to turn even one person in favor of peace!
http://palestinian.ning.com/forum/topics/the-other-side-of-the-story
Wednesday, January 14, 2009 at 4:24 pm
A good advice for J.B. from P.A. also try to quote a independent author, you know, may be from non-Jewish one for sake of objectivity!
Wednesday, January 14, 2009 at 4:43 pm
Nathan,
.
What level of respect is enough for you? You've already stated
.
"I know Hamas uses civilians as shields and hides weapons in mosques. I know they launch rockets next to schools."
.
And yet, you argue that "the fact that Israel is apparently showing very little regard for civilian lives, shelling schools and mosques and homes, anything at all with the appearance of being used by Hamas"
.
It apparently needs to be said again, HAMAS has shown ZERO concern for civilians of any stripe. It's suicide bombers targeted civilians. It's rockets are targeted at civilian towns and cities, and its forces timed their attacks for when the most civilians could be hit, including children.
.
It's fighters declare that its either victory or death, and if its death, then that's just fine too, because hey to them, its still victory.
.
To that end, it hasn't just used civilians as shields, and civilian locations as arms depots, but turned the entire urban area of Gaza into their own killing zone. Buildings have been booby trapped and apartment buildings have been turned into kill boxes.
.
It's been eight years with 10,000 rockets fired into Israel. Of those, half have been launched AFTER Israel pulled out of Gaza.
.
To date, who has tried to stop HAMAS from either doing this, or prevent them from having the capability of doing this?
.
The unfortunate answer is no-one outside of Israel.
.
They say that HAMAS has spent the past three years turning Gaza into a warren of bunkers and tunnels. Various news agencies have reported that anywhere from several hundred up to 1,000 tunnels have been dug under the border between Gaza and Egypt alone.
.
How many bomb shelters have been dug during that time?
.
What provisions did the elected government of the Palestinians do to look for ways to minimize their casualties while HAMAS fought with Israel?
.
You know the answer as well as I do. What's worse is your comments at top. Rather than seek to protect the Palestinians, either from their own actions or Israel's potential military response, HAMAS went out of its way to make them targets.
.
I can sympathize with the Palestinian civilians to the end of time. I can look at Nick's photo's of decapitated children, I can look at Joe's link to the Palestinian mother putting up photo's of the bloodshed and violence every day. I can mourn the horror that the bombs bring to civilians, young and old.
.
But I keep going back to the realization that these people are suffering due to an organization that essentially a death cult.
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If there is to be an end to the Arab/Israeli conflict, you need to have a real goal of peace. Peace for the Palestinians and peace for Israelis. Despite all the shortfalls in both the negotiations and confrontation between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, I still have the hope that peace is the ultimate goal. As I posted above, that's not the case with HAMAS, its not the case with Hizballah, and others. When the ultimate end is one's extinction, what is there to negotiate? Would you like your blood spilled now or later? That is the choice being offered by the likes of HAMAS.
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Israel pulled out of Lebanon almost a decade ago. Went back to the UN approved Blue Line, receieved a thumbs up from the UN that it did indeed withdraw from Lebanon. And what did they get? Continued rocket attacks from Hizballah and a continued attempts to kidnap Israeli citizens. Ultimately Israel had enough in 2006 and the results was a war that summer. The same situation occured in Gaza. Three years ago Israel pulled out in total. The result was a further military buildup, further calls for Israel's extermination, and daily launches of rockets at Israeli towns.
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You can hate the violence all you want, but at what point does the IDF satisfy your sense of humanity? With leaflets, with direct phone calls to Gazans to evacuate individual buildings? With taking in the wounded Palestinians? Stopping the fighting every day for three hours for humanitarian aid to reach Gazans?
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Meanwhile, HAMAS leaders like Nizar Rayyan, sent his own son on a suicide bomber mission.
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Israeli's have been damaged and scarred for eight years too. HAMAS not only chose to end the ceasefire, but continue to reject a truce through today. At what point is one allowed to stop someone from shooting at them?
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Wednesday, January 14, 2009 at 4:45 pm
Nick,
Both can be found in today's NY Times (hence my use of headlining from them). All three articles & op-ed's are excerpts from larger articles.
Wednesday, January 14, 2009 at 4:49 pm
Joe, you're the last person in the world who should be preaching about objectivity.
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As for my recent postings, one is from a journalist at the New York Times, and all he does is quote from HAMAS members.
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When I soucred an op-ed, I made sure to note that it was an opinion piece.
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And all the Ha'Aretz article provides are quotes from HAMAS leaders.
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I guess I can understand that given my sources, that you might find HAMAS members to be less than objective. I'll try to do better the next time.
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Wednesday, January 14, 2009 at 4:53 pm
Nathan,
I didn't write that violence "always" occurs when diplomacy fails. And I'm sorry, but no matter how many "approaches" you take, if one side has a principle from which it won't budge, e.g., Israel must be destroyed, there's nothing persuasion or diplomacy can do. And "leverage" is a form of diplomacy. The U.S. has considerable leverage over Israel. If Bush or Obama called Olmert today and demanded an immediate unilateral cessation of military activity, what do you think would happen? Nothing. Same result if every leader of every Arab country called up the Hamas leadership and demanded they recognize Israel.
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I may have been unclear in my use of "sympathizers." I wasn't writing about those who sympathize with Palestinian civilians. I was writing about those who excuse Hamas's rockets attacks on Israel. There are both kinds of posters on this blog. By the way, Israel doesn't respond in kind every time Hamas fires a rocket. It pretty much didn't respond for 2 years.
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I agree with your analysis that Israel's actions may be counterproductive, but what else is it supposed to do? You wrote there were more than two ways to deal with the rocket fire from Hamas, but I don't see it that way. Israel abandoned Gaza, an election took place, and the winners decided to celebrate by firing rockets into Israel on a continuous basis. Israel endured for a while, hoping its negotiations with the PA and Abbas and Fatah would yield results. Then Hamas violently cleanses Gaza of anything and anyone Fatah. At that point, there was no counter to Hamas except Israeli firepower. The parties that have "leverage" over Hamas are similar anti-Israel Arabs and Iran. You think they are going to ask Hamas to stop firing rockets?
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As for the tunnels, food, clothes, medicine, etc. were undoubtedly smuggled. But imagine if in place of rockets and munitions, even more food, clothes, and medicine came in. The lives of regular Palestinians would undoubtedly be better because 1) they'd have more of those neccessities, and 2) Hamas wouldn't have an arsenal of rockets that was used to provoke Israel into bombing Gaza. But, again, the regular Palestinian isn't Hamas's concern. The destruction of Israel is.
Wednesday, January 14, 2009 at 5:44 pm
J.B., as a person who is not Arab or Israeli but know about Middle-east custom of haggling in bazaar shops, let me tell you when both side tell each other to go to hell and they claim talking are useless, they mean prices are to high and bring it down in order to move forward, they're not implying that come back with machinegun and take it away for free, Middle-east being in middle of east and west is a giant Bazaar and not asylum house for psychopaths, you and Bush might be a exception do
Wednesday, January 14, 2009 at 6:01 pm
Unfortunately Joe, the bazaar is only one aspect of Middle East culture.
Wednesday, January 14, 2009 at 6:02 pm
And unfortunately, it's not the aspect that's at the heart of HAMAS thoughts or actions.
Wednesday, January 14, 2009 at 6:33 pm
Come on J.B., Palestinian want pre 1967 lands, how much for east Jerusalem and west bank settlements? name Israelis price while Persian Gulf Arabs still have lot of cash left to burn before spending it all on another man made island while they could have diverted waters inland much cheaper to make island in side of useless desert!!! don't tell me it's not for sale, even US believes it's not part of pre 1967 Israel to begin with, name the price so Arabs can make you counter offer!
Wednesday, January 14, 2009 at 8:09 pm
I love these counter arguments of: "But Hamas doesn't care about the Palestinians either!" That's your best comeback? Hamas could be lining up every Palestinian in Gaza and executing them Alamo style and it still wouldn't give Israel any more right to indiscriminately bomb civilian locations.
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Really? You think Israel has a right to retaliate and target obvious civilian locations because a rocket was fired from that spot? What's the goal here? You know whoever fired that rocket is long gone. You know civilians are sheltering in that location. Why shell it?
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I know what Yoni would say, and I know what you are thinking: if the civilians don't want to get shelled then they shouldn't let rockets get launched right next to them. I know you're thinking it. And I know Israeli soldiers are thinking it as they bomb civilian targets. And you wonder why people call Israel's treatment of Gaza "collective punishment".
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The only reason why I'm picking on Israel here instead of Hamas is because Israel is the one who makes the choice whether or not to bomb or shell a certain target. Hamas may use civilians as shields but Israel doesn't have to kill them. Blaming Hamas for the death of Palestinian civilians during this conduct is not logical. If you shot at me and I fired back and hit your sister instead when I knew she was in the way, who do you blame? Do you blame yourself for shooting at me in the first place or am I to blame for retaliating when I knew the sister was likely to get hit instead? It's not black and white.
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Likewise, there are many instances in which I disagree with Israel's incursion. If a rocket gets fired from a school or a house, I don't care how bad you want to bomb it, just don't do it. Repeatable firings maybe. I don't know. It's not black and white.
Wednesday, January 14, 2009 at 8:31 pm
cgtx -
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US has some leverage over Israel. The US + EU has more leverage over Israel. And yes, Iran has plenty of leverage over both Hamas and Hezbollah. If Iran and Syria told Hamas and Hizbollah to stop, they would find it very hard to continue with no funds.
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Also, you seem to think that Israel has done no wrong since they withdrew from Gaza. Well, I don't know why you expected the entire problem to be solved because Israel withdrew, but Israel never withdrew from the West Bank (where settlements have actually increased dramatically since the withdrawal), the Palestinians still don't have their own state, and Gaza still doesn't have an airport or a seaport, or control of their airpace or seaspace. Plus, as soon as Hamas was elected, Israel and Quartet decided to implement sanctions against Hamas, immediately sending a message that Hamas had no political recourse and giving them no incentive to halt their violence against Israel. Rocket attacks against Israel in 2006 were small potatoes compared to what's been fired since. If anything, Hamas was holding back. Remember the shells that exploded on the Gaza beach? Remember how the rockets dramatically increased after Hamas ended the truce? Just by that alone it was obvious that Hamas was suppressing a large portion of the rocket fire.
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Also, Hamas did not just decide on a whim to "cleanse Gaza" of everything Fatah. The US, Israel, and Egypt were actively working to undermine Hamas while arming Fatah militias to take on Hamas in a civil war which they were going to provoke, during which an emergency government would be declared absent Hamas. The US spent millions of dollars on this plan and it was appoved by Bush and Rice. Well, it worked, sort of. They got their civil war, but they didn't count on Hamas fighting back (once it became clear that Fatah generals would not be following orders from a Hamas government) and taking over the Gaza strip. Yay Bush.
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So no, Hamas did not promptly start firing rockets as soon as they won the elction; and no, Israel's unilateral disengagement was not an end all to the conflict; and no, Hamas did not decide to just cleanse Palestine of everything Hamas. It was much more complex and nuanced than that and the international community has made many mistakes that they have yet to own up for.
Wednesday, January 14, 2009 at 8:41 pm
That is rediculous that the US would have instigated a Palestinian civil war. We wouldn't even risk public opinion to attack Iran. The Israelis gave the Palestinians Gaza of their own choice complete with nurseries and businesses which the Palestinians demolished and used to fire rockets. What country wouldn't attack if innocent civilians were rocketed to death nearly everyday? So many always seem to supporting and glorifying Anti-semitic Arab terrorists who believe in annihilation of Isreal and the West. The Islamic Quran at verse 9:5 says fight and kill the infidels wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war. Christian and homosexual Arabs are threatened with death or forced to immigrate.The Western World and even the Jewish State keep giving arms, aid and land to Palestinian and Arab extremists as they try to kill them. The Arabs target innocent civilians all day long with homicide bombers, while the Israelis are warning Arabs in strike zones despite hamas attacks from civilian positions using human shields.
References to the
holocaust have been deleted from school textbooks.
Most Jews either went to the death camps or to Israel since no country would help them during the war. They had no choice but to settle. And some families never left Israel all these 2000 years.
The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem visited Auschwitz during the WWII and asked Hitler to build a killing facility in Palestine. (The Quran at verse 4:50-55 says "Sufficient for the Jew is the flaming fire!") This Grand Mufti was the uncle of Yasser Arafat. Israel would love nothing more than to have settled with its foes and ended the violence. If Westerners lived in Gaza, they long ago would have made peace. The Israelis are the pin cushion in it all. Never once have the Arabs been straight and honest at the table-The Quran at verse 16:101 justifies duplicity: "When we substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger: but most of them understand not."
Nobody even mentions all the terrorists trained by Palestinians in the Baca Valley in Lebanon with Syrian, and Iranian help. They trained in the Baca Valley-Angolans, Irish Republican Army, Latin Amercian Insurgents, the Red Brigade that bombed innocent civilians all over Europe, The Baader Meinhof Gang that did likewise, Hezbollah, the PLO, and the famous terrorist "the Jackal" among others. Palestinians together with Iran, Hezbollah, and Syria were said to be involved in the bombing of the US Embassy and the Marine Barracks in Lebanon in the 80's, but the agents that found this out were instructed to squash the information as too embarrassing and unactionable. My sources are "the Secret War Against the Jews" by John Loftus and "Heros under Fire", a show that aired on the History Channel.
Some Europeans are right back where they were before WWII when it comes to antisemitism. Speaking of which, No one remembers when the Palestinians had power under the English and the Turks. There used to be organized riots and attacks on old men in Jewish seminaries every few weeks. Jewish residents in Hebron were massacred in 1929. In a riot one British officer describes a Palestinian policeman stabbing a Jewish woman to death then identifying himself as a policeman to the British Officer to justify it. The British officer shot the Palestinian summarily in disgust. Nobody feels safe protesting for Israel with all the threats from the religion of peace.
Muslims say “Jerusalem's Al Aqsa Mosque is from where Muhammad rose to Heaven” - How does anyone know from the Koran if Muhammad went to Heaven from Jerusalem? This claim is based on Muslims guessing from Quran 17:1 The Quran says, “Allah…carried his servant [Muhammad] by night [on a donkey] from the Inviolable place of worship [Mecca] to the far distant place of worship [Later-Muslims claimed this place as al-Aqsa] the neighborhood in Jerusalem.” This ‘far distant place' could mean anywhere on earth. The Al Aqsa mosque and the Dome of the Rock were not built yet when Muhammad was killed. Jerusalem was captured by Khalif Omar in 638, six years after Mohammed's death. Throughout this time there were only churches in Jerusalem, and a church stood on the Temple Mount, called the Church of Saint Mary, built in the Byzantine architectural style, started by Emperor Constantine 1 after 330 A.D. and completed by Emperor Justinian. In or around
711, or about 80 years after Muhammad died. A Muslim ruler who ruled from 705-715 - renovated the Church of St. Mary and converted it into a mosque. He left the structure as it was, a typical Byzantine Eastern Roman Empire basilica structure. All he did was some cosmetic renovations, removed Christian items and replaced the Christian stained glass. He then named it Al-Aqsa, so it would sound like the one mentioned by the Muslims. This Mosque still looks more like a church, and there is no Mosque anywhere in the world which looks like it. The Muslims claim a church as their 3rd most holy mosque. Al Aqsa mosque did not exist when Muhammad died. The Quran obviously meant the city of Medina. But the Muslims wanted Islam to be recognized with God's “people of the Book” and seek some acceptance from the Jews,
In a revelatory Islamic book, Bukhari, at verse 651 Allah's messenger said, ‘Jesus, the son of Mary, will descend shortly amongst you Muslims and will judge mankind by the law of the Quran. He will break the (Christian) crosses and kill the swine and there will be no more Jizyah tax from non-Muslims. The culture doesn't promote peace. In the Quran at 4:101 unbelievers are described as "open enemies". Any territory that has been trodden by Muslims is considered permanently a Muslim country and cannot be re-occupied by non-Muslims again. Even a Jewish village in Israel is considered an affront. Another revelatory Islamic book, Ishaq, says at verse 364: Muslims take not the Jews and Christians as friends. Whoever protects them becomes one of them, they become diseased and will earn a similar fate.
Where were the photos of Israeli children killed all through the 3000 rocket attacks from Gaza this year? Where are the suicide bomber photos of dead Israeli children? You can't allow a tunnel for weapons considering the last eight years of Hamas cheerfully blowing up children with rockets.
Wednesday, January 14, 2009 at 10:05 pm
Last I checked Joe, the Gulf Arabs were getting hit quite hard in the pocket book due to the global economic downturn, which hit at the same time as the plung in oil prices (from a peak of $147 back in July to the high $30 range this week).
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Second, since when have the Gulf Arabs shown any interest in buying off Israel?
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Thursday, January 15, 2009 at 10:20 am
Hamas not caring about the Palestinians isn't a comeback. It's the truth, and it supplies the reason that Hamas could care less about provoking Israel. Hamas knows that Israel can't sit idly while rockets fall. Eventually it will take military action and civilians will unfortunately die. By the way, Israel doesn't fire indiscriminately. It was very precise in its targeting when this conflict broke out, but unfortunately the IDF can't be perfect.
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As far as Israel's rights to return fire even though the Hamas militiamen may be gone, here's my stand on that: Hamas has every right to fire away at Israel. Israel has every right to defend itself when fired upon. Now whether it is smart to exercise those rights is a different story. Hamas exercises its right to the point of fatigue. Israel, on the other hand, is much more hesitant to exercise its right. You wrote about "repeatable firings." What do you think 2 years of regular rocket attacks is?
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As far as Israel's withdrawal from Gaza, no I didn't expect that to solve the whole issue, but it wasn't intended to solve the whole issue. Was it too much to ask for rocket attacks to stop? Really? Too much? Israel's withdrawal was a HUGE step. Gigantic. It was a total reversal of policy towards Gaza, the IDF was used to forcibly remove intransigent settlers, and even Jewish graves were disinterred. And the reward for this tremendous step? Rockets. Not patience to see how the West Bank would be treated nor a good faith effort on the part of Hamas to negotiate with Israel or even recognize Israel.
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And you can conspiracy theorize all about the Hamas-Fatah split, but it really boils down to Hamas's disgust that Fatah would even sit in the same room with Israel, not any monies that the U.S. or Euros may have given to Fatah. Hamas wants the destruction of Israel. Fatah wants a Palestinian state and is willing to negotiate. You can write about "nuance" all you want, but that is the crux of the Fatah-Hamas split. Until one side compromises on its stance, there will always be a split.
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You gave an interesting example of my shooting at you, your returning fire, and my sister being killed by your fire. Who is to blame? There's a theory in law called the felony-murder rule. Basically, if you commit a felony or are involved in the commission of the felony, you are responsible for any death that occures as a result of that felony, even if you didn't actually kill the person. In your example, assuming you are just minding your own business, I commit the felony by attempting to kill you. You are perfectly within your right of self-defense to fire at me to protect yourself. That my sister gets killed is truly unfortunate, but I, not you, would be the one prosecuted for her death. The reasoning is you never would have fired at me and my sister never would have been killed if I hadn't committed the felony in the first place. I'm sure you see where I'm going by now, but I'll apply this theory to the current conflict. Israel left Gaza and was abiding by a ceasefire. Hamas began continuous rocket fire for 2 years, abandoned the ceasefire (which it was really ignoring anyway), and escalated rocket attacks. In an effort to stop the attacks, Israel retaliated and Palestinian civilians were killed. The blame lies at the feet of Hamas.
Thursday, January 15, 2009 at 2:47 pm
Jacobblues,
Did you know that there are people who want the Israeli government to be investigated for war crimes? No, these are not Hamas sympathizers. No, these are ISRAELI human rights groups. This is a massacre, pure and simple. Why you can talk about thousands of rockets, how many Israelis have actually been killed? I believe it is 18 in the last 8 years. Now that the Israeli military is killing at a rate of 100 to 1, don't you think it is time to stop and rethink the invasion?
Missiles just got fired from Lebanon and Israel issued a response which was more than justified. Why couldn't it have done the same thing in Gaza? Only the Muslim world would have been outraged if Israel had targeted only the missile sites, whether they were in civilian areas or not. But instead they attacked the infrastructure of Gaza. All of this is simple anger and revenge. However, when a UN resolution gets the votes of France and Britan, and even the U.S. abstains, that should tell Israel something.
While I believe most Israelis want peace, clearly the Israeli governments of the past several years do not. Why should they? They have the superior weapons, the support of the only Superpower, why should they have to give up any real concessions? What the Israelis are really interested is negotiating the terms of surrender. Just look at how Europe treated the Germans after WWI and look what they got. Does Israel want the same thing?
Thursday, January 15, 2009 at 2:55 pm
I keep hearing how Hamas want to eliminate all the Jews. Really? How many Israelis or Jews has Hamas killed outside of Israel and the occupied territories? After all, the PLO killed Israelis around the world and now Israel actually talks to the PLO. Israel has left Gaza. Really? Does the Gazas control their own borders, air space and coast line? Does Gaza control the free flow of goods into their territory? Who is responsible for their electricity?
I have heard Hamas compared to the Nazis. Where is their great army? Where are their concentration camps filled with Jews who were loyal to their country? Hamas is fighting for their land, the land of "Palestine". I may hate their methods, but they have a legitimate beef. As far as killing Israelis, Hamas has killed many more members of Fatah than Jews, but no one is arguing they are out to kill off the old PLO.
Thursday, January 15, 2009 at 2:56 pm
All this reminds me of Wounded Knee. Maybe that is where Israel got the idea.
Thursday, January 15, 2009 at 4:56 pm
J.B., don't worry about their pocket, you're analyzing a spot market value of oil which goes up and down like yoyo, fact of matter are, they have trillion of dollars in underground and several of those trillions are invested and saved after 100 years of production which couldn't be absorbed by their economy, so they have access to cash, lot of it, just name your price, simple real state transaction, how much it cost to rebuilt settlements in pre 1967 Israel plus any other reasonable fees!
Peoples who are running a show in US know peace settlement is inevitable between Israel and Palestine because of worldwide attention against Israel love affair with last century colonial world order and also it's best time to settle issue now while Arabs have lot of cash in hand and US having excuse of economical difficulties of her own and won't be paying for upcoming deal like 1978 deal, allied or not, it's just a business!
Thursday, January 15, 2009 at 5:08 pm
FHM,
Yes, I've seen the news reports by the Israeli human rights groups.
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Yes, I can talk about the thousands of rockets because that, not the death toll is what sparked this fight. The reality is, the absence of a larger death toll is due to several factors, not the least being the strong Israeli response to put up defensive structures and warning measures to the population.
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But the reality is, HAMAS intent is to kill Israeli civilians. Their targets, the timing of the launches are all meant to increase the chances of civilian deaths.
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Whether or not HAMAS racks up a large body count, the rocket attacks have had a huge negative impact on Israeli life as a population of 100,000 people were terorized in these cities and towns.
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The rocket attacks have gone on for eight years, including the three years AFTER Israel pulled out of the Gaza strip and including throughout the six months of the so-called ceasefire. That a right-wing government of Israel was behind the pullout, and subsequent voting in of Kadima, who's central platform was to pull out of the West Bank, shows that not just the Israeli electorate, but the government as well, did want peace.
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Moreover, during the three years since Israel pulled out, HAMAS has imported military grade Grad rockets which are now targeting Israeli cities 20 miles away.
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The goal of the Israeli military is to stop the rocket fire, and prevent HAMAS from shooting rockets into Israel in the future.
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Unfortunately, HAMAS has intertwined its guerrilla army within the densly populated urban portions of Gaza. It's strategy is structured on using civilian buildings and population as a means of both attack and defense.
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If you're going to call this a massacre, then HAMAS needs to stand at the core of this violence.
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In contrast to Israel's withdrawel from Gaza, HAMAS central platform is to kill Jews, and eliminate all of Israel, replacing it with a Jew free Islamic state.
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Israel can make peace with the Palestinians, it can't make peace with a group that wants them dead and gone, and is willing to kill its own people to achieve this. And if you're enemy not only gives up territory but sits down at the negotiating table to boot, what does that say about the extent of HAMAS beef in addition to their methods?
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As for the PLO, remember, Israel didn't talk to them till they stepped away from their maximalist statements and actions.
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As for comparing HAMAS to the Nazi's, its again intent and philosophy. Let's remember, Hitler didn't start out with a great army either. As for HAMAS treatment of Fatah, let's remember that only last week, it was HAMAS that was gunning down injured Fatah members in Gazan hospitals.
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Thursday, January 15, 2009 at 5:13 pm
Joe,
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You have an awful lot to say about how to use other people's money. Trillions of dollars you say? One has to wonder why then, if there are so many dollars floating around underground, why they haven't used it to lift the lives of the 200+ million Arabs in the Middle East. God knows that Egypt's 90 million people could use a few dollars thrown their way. Same thing for Jordan, Yemen, Somolia, Lebanon, Syria, in addition to the Palestinians.
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If it were 'just business', why then all the conflicts in and around the gulf? Why not just toss money at these other conflicts. Why have Iraqi's blowing each other up? Why a civil war in Yemen several decades back? Why allow a civil war in Lebanon to rage all those decades. Surely, the Saudis and their Gulf cousins would have been willing to part with a few coins to bring peace to these states too?
Thursday, January 15, 2009 at 5:28 pm
free the children -- destroy Hamas!
Thursday, January 15, 2009 at 5:36 pm
cgtx -
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It's not a conspiracy theory. http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804/
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"Vanity Fair has obtained confidential documents, since corroborated by sources in the U.S. and Palestine, which lay bare a covert initiative, approved by Bush and implemented by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Deputy National Security Adviser Elliott Abrams, to provoke a Palestinian civil war. The plan was for forces led by Dahlan, and armed with new weapons supplied at America's behest, to give Fatah the muscle it needed to remove the democratically elected Hamas-led government from power. (The State Department declined to comment.)"
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From http://www.iiss.org/publications/strategic-comments/past-issues/volume-13---2007/volume-13-issue-5/hamas-coup-in-gaza/
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"The US had arranged the transfer of 2,000 rifles and ammunition from Egypt in late December 2006, and in late April the Israeli government transferred another 375; the US committed $59 million for training and non-lethal equipment, and covertly persuaded Arab allies to fund the purchase of further weapons. Jordan and Egypt hosted at least two battalions for training, one of which was deployed into Gaza as clashes resumed in mid-May. With half its parliamentary bloc and its cabinet ministers in the West Bank in Israeli custody since the abduction of Israeli Corporal Gilad Shalit by Palestinian militants on 28 June 2006, Hamas concluded that its remaining government base in Gaza was in danger and launched what in effect was a pre-emptive coup."
Thursday, January 15, 2009 at 5:44 pm
The longer Israel drag her foot for a peaceful settlement, the harder it will get for her ultimate survival, majority of world opinions are calling for boy cut of Israel in line with apartheid South Africa, here is one from her western allies!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/10/naomi-klein-boycott-israel
Thursday, January 15, 2009 at 5:47 pm
Nathan,
"The U.S. Covertly persuaded Arab allies to fund the purchase of further weapons. Jordan and Egypt hosted at least two battalions for training, one of which was deployed into Gaza as clashes resumed in mid-May."
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I stand corrected. But it appears it was more than the U.S. and Israel that wanted Hamas. Some of their Arab brothers also detest them. I'm glad to see that. That means there is hope for the ME. Some Arab governments realize that organizations committed to the destruction of Israel are more trouble than they are worth. That means a concept like "enlightened self-interest" can take hold, because in the long run all Arab countries are much better off just letting Israel exist and without supporting the die-hards who live to die trying to bring about Israel's destruction.
Thursday, January 15, 2009 at 6:11 pm
It's funny how all the people Time uses as a "source" either are virulently anti-israel or in cahoots with hamas terrorists.
If you guys want to see visual proof that there is no food shortage--read: no humanitarian crisis in gaza check out this photo of a rocket falling near a gaza market and note the PILES of food.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/worldnews/4228340/Stunning-photos-capture-Israeli-bombs-falling-on-Gaza.html?image=10
Another thing--hamas has built thousands of tunnels to smuggle in weapons. If these so-called human rights advocates want to really build up gaza's economy they should outsource this skill of building tunnels into gaza'a first subway system. Brilliant, no?
Thursday, January 15, 2009 at 6:23 pm
As the felony murder rule: touche.
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However, extend my analogy to include a situation where it is not entire clear who first provoked the action and who is merely responding in kind. I posit that this situation is not easily reduced to those two roles.
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Also, when does self-defense end and another felony begin? The dividing line is not easily defined. Here I posit that some of Israel's actions extend beyond the self-defense exemption. You want to write Israel a blank check to conduct this war in any manner and without responisibility for civilian casualties or infrastructure destruction. I want to hold Israel accountable for what many human rights groups are calling "wonton use of lethal force".
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You recognize that the Gazan pullout could not have solved everything and yet then comment that the pullout was not recieved with any thanks or change in behavior as if you DID expect something to change. Let me clear about this: Israel's hasty withdrawl from Gaza could not in any way have been a major game changer. Why would the Palestinian leadership believe otherwise when Israel still had her teeth sunk into the West Bank where settlements were expanding at an increasing pace? And why did Sharon not use his disengagement as a negotiating tool? He never attempted to secure concessions from the PA in exchange for withdrawing from the Gaza Strip. It was purely a political moved designed to preempt any further talk of withdrawing from the West Bank. How many times have you used the rocket fire from Gaza as a reason for not withdrawing from the West Bank? Don't lie.
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Furthermore, you act as if Israel never retaliated for the rocket fire until this point. You act as if Israel never shelled Gaza in response (which it did) or ordered air raids (which it did) or launched military incursions into the strip (which it did). Remember Operation Summer Rain? You know, the one designed to "halt the rocket fire in the southern Negev" and to rescue Gilad Shalit? What about the shell that exploded on the beach that Hamas used as an excuse to withdraw from a cease-fire? What about the 5000 artillery shells that Israel launched in the first half of 2006?
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The true of the matter is that Israel and Palestinian militants have been trading bombardment for years. I fail to see how you can conclusively blame Palestinian militants for the mess and abjectly dismiss Israel's share of the responsibility. I'd like to see a court try to sort out the "felony murder" rule for that one.
Thursday, January 15, 2009 at 6:31 pm
cgtx -
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Of course other Arab countries don't like Hamas. The Sunni-Shiite conflict plays a very large role in ME politics. Hizbollah and Hamas are Shiite organizations supported by Shiite countries (Iranian and Syrian governments). Jordan, Egypt, and Saudia Arabia are predomnately Sunni. Why do you think Egypt (almost entirely Sunni)keeps the crossings closed?
Thursday, January 15, 2009 at 7:06 pm
Nathan, you're wrong.
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While Iran is supporting HAMAS, the organization is a step-child of Egypt's Sunni, Muslim Brotherhood. Indeed, please look at the op-ed piece I posted yesterday from the New York Times, the larger article includes various concerns against both Hizballah and Iran's Shia sect.
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Since Nick needs some hand holding here's the link to the full article.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/14/opinion/14goldberg-1.html
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Also, while Syria is ruled by the Assad's, members of the Shia-like Aliwaite clan, the majority of Syria's population is also Sunni.
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As for why Egypt keeps the Rafah crossings closed is that it doesn't want the Palestinians in, and doesn't want HAMAS to be supported by and support the Muslim Brotherhood.
Friday, January 16, 2009 at 11:19 am
Jacpb,
Early in this war, Israel targeted missile sites and civilians accounted for only about 20% to 25% of the deaths in Gaza. They were calling Palestinian homes and warning people to leave targets, going after storage places. Very humanitarian. Under such circumstances, Israel was justified in its actions. However, when you start targeting infrastructure, when you start hitting UN sanctuaries, and now every 3 out of 4 casualties are civilian, you have to ask yourself, what are you accomplishing?
If Israel would allow every woman and every male under 14 or over 50 who is not a member of HAMAS to leave Gaza, then you could make the argument about blowing Gaza to kingdom come. Afterwards, the U.S. can fund its rebuilding. However, you are shooting fish in a barrel and only making things worse. And it is not just Israel, Egypt hasn't opened its borders either.
I came not to trust what the Israeli government says, when after destroying the UN compound, they privately tell the UN, "Sorry, we f__ked up." and then publicly claim militants were firing from the compound, which they know is not true.
As far as HAMAS, rightly or wrongly, they view Jews as European interlopers coming to claim "Muslim" land like the Crusaders did 800 years ago. Hanging on to the myth that Israel was founded out the ruins of the Holocaust, they argue, "if the Nazis did that to you, why don't you take part of Germany for yourselves!" They believe in the long run they will overrun Israel in population in a few generations.
With all due respect, Israeli governments have often asked against its long term interests for short term gains. Privately supporting Islamists during the 70s and 80s at the expense of the secular PLO. Withdrawing from Gaza unilaterally instead of using it as an opportunity to make Abbas look good. Releasing only a few Palestinian prisoners, while releasing hundreds of Lebanese for the bones of a few Israeli soldiers. (Granted the government has improved on this the last few months, but it should have been done sooner.) Offering nothing to the Palestinians during the summer of 2000, then making real concessions after the 2nd intifada started in Taba.
I maybe an idiot, but even I know what is needed to reach a peace deal. Give up most of the West Bank. Trade Israeli land for the land taken for the settlements. Share East Jerusalem and let the Palestinians use it for their capital. Finesse the "Right of Return" issue - Anyone born before 1948 can return to their birth place, but will not have Israeli citizenship. That or be financially compensated. The rest will be financially compensated (mostly with U.S. dollars) and the right to return to Gaza or the West Bank. Trust me, most would not want to return to live under Israeli rule - only 10% would return and only 1% would accept Israeli citizenship. There you go. Everyone knows that is the deal, but does anyone have the political courage to say, "Yes"?
Friday, January 16, 2009 at 5:46 pm
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Friday, January 16, 2009 at 8:44 pm
First,can anyone truthfully explain how to make peace with someone who wants you, your entire family, and every semblance of your very existance gone. That is Hamas plain and simple, no PC, no excuses just truth. Most of you can't accept that or are in favor of that. To those who are so full of hate, I say "bite me."