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USHMM.org > History > Online Exhibitions > Antisemitism > Voices on Antisemitism > Transcript
Voices on Antisemitism: A Podcast Series

Ilan Stavans
Credit: Sam Masinter
May 8, 2008
Ilan Stavans
Professor of Latin American and Latino Culture, Amherst College
Ilan Stavans has long thought of himself as an outsider, first as a Jew growing up in Mexico and now as a Mexican living in America.
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TRANSCRIPT:
 
ILAN STAVANS:
We felt that it was time to no longer simply be the recipient of the stereotypes that had been bestowed on us. There was a pride, a feeling of commitment to not being pushed around, not being toyed with, not being any more the nineteenth century, malleable, pitiful Diaspora Jew.

DANIEL GREENE:
As a teenager growing up in Mexico, Ilan Stavans joined a group called Bitakhon, which trained young Jews to defend themselves against antisemitic assaults. The experience defined his view of himself as an outsider. Stavans still thinks of himself as an outsider and as a wanderer—first as a Jew living in Mexico and now as a Mexican living in America—and he wonders whether it might be important for Jews to retain a memory of wandering.

Welcome to Voices on Antisemitism, a free podcast series of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum made possible by generous support from the Oliver and Elizabeth Stanton Foundation. I'm Daniel Greene. Every other week, we invite a guest to reflect about the many ways that antisemitism and hatred influence our world today. From Amherst College, here's Professor Ilan Stavans.

ILAN STAVANS:
I grew up in Mexico, in the 1960s and 1970s. The community at the time, the Jewish community, because of its size, it was vulnerable.

We Jews, who arrived at the end of the nineteenth century or in the early parts of the twentieth century, were already thrown into this machinery of stereotypes that had begun before our arrival, from the time of the Inquisition and during the Colonial period—Jews: money-lenders; Jews: Christ-killers. And the community felt itself a target of all sorts of mostly verbal attacks that came from the media and maybe certain political groups.

Not knowing exactly how to react the community organized itself in a way that attempted to find tools of defense for any violence that would emerge.

In my particular case, I was involved in this group Bitakhon in the 1970s. We would come together at night and we would be trained in a variety of ways to be able to defend the community of all sorts of eventualities that could take place. Sometimes they would simply be going and erasing antisemitic graffiti. In others, it would be a little more physical, where we would confront somebody who had confronted a member of the community.

For a person like me, a Diaspora Jew, a descendent from Eastern European, Yiddish speaking immigrants to Mexico, the idea of having an army of such, a secret army, was at once empowering and frightening.

We mostly were trained in terms of physical exercises, to fight with our own hands, to be able to jump, to be able to hide—nothing much more sophisticated than that and that is one of the reasons why I look at it with the sense of futility, that maybe it didn't have, at that particular point. We thought that, well, we were being trained, we were being empowered and we could do something.

But could we really do something? Or was this really more a psychological rather than a militaristic strategy that the community took?

In any event, in retrospect, the time that I spent in Bitakhon, that experience really formed my views as a Diaspora Jew, as an immigrant, as a person who is an outsider. I look back at those years and at that particular experience as sobering and defining.

The Mexican Jewish community is a community of immigrants in more than the simple, traditional sense of the word because there was the mentality, the frame of mind of having arrived but never quite having landed. We were there. We were welcomed. We were grateful to Mexico, to its culture, to its people, but we were different. We looked different. We acted different. We had different last names. We ate different food.

And there was always this sense that, should something happen—something with a capital "S"—you needed to be ready. Your suitcases needed to be packed. We needed to have bank accounts somewhere else. We needed to be having real estate in Miami, in Dallas.

The suitcase is the proof that you carry with yourself your belongings, even when you're staying put. That, in many ways, the memory that you have of the place into which you were born and where you live is packable, is transferable, and it's temporary. That no matter how long you stay in that place, your roots are never too deep.

I was born an immigrant even before I became an immigrant. I was the grandchild of immigrants and eventually, just like my grandparents, who had arrived from Poland and from the Ukraine to Mexico, I chose to leave Mexico and to come to the United States, but I chose to come here and retain my uniqueness as a minority.

I am grateful to this country. I feel involved and committed to it. But it is that aspect of Jewish Diaspora life, the transient, the globe-trotting, the geographical wanderer that remains in me.

And I have some nostalgia or desire to see my kids experience what I did experience as a child in Mexico—the feeling of being and not being accepted at the same time.

They would gain the sense that the concept of nation is a modern one, is a transient one and we, as Jews, might live in the United States today. Tomorrow, in the next country, just the way we lived in Babylon or in the Roman Empire or in the Byzantium or in Poland or in Spain, but that we will go to the next country because it is not about our immediate surrounding but about time traveling.

DANIEL GREENE:
Voices on Antisemitism is a free podcast series of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. Join us every other week to hear a new perspective on the continuing threat of antisemitism in our world today. To contribute your thoughts to our series, please call 888-70USHMM, or visit our Web site at www.ushmm.org. At that site, you can also listen to Voices on Genocide Prevention, a podcast series on contemporary genocide.


 
8 de mayo de 2008
Ilan Stavans
Profesor de Cultura latina y latinoamericana, Amherst College

Ilan Stavans siempre se sintió un forastero, primero como judío creciendo en México y ahora como mexicano viviendo en Estados Unidos.

ILAN STAVANS:
Sentimos que ya era hora de dejar de ser los meros destinatarios de los estereotipos que nos habían impuesto. Había un orgullo, un sentimiento de compromiso de dejar de ser el objeto de presiones, burlas, dejando de ser los lastimosos y dóciles judíos de la diáspora del siglo XIX.

DANIEL GREENE:
Cuando era adolescente en México, Ilan Stavans se unió a un grupo llamado Bitakhon, que entrenaba a jóvenes judíos para defenderse de los ataques antisemitas. La experiencia definió su opinión de sí mismo como forastero. Stavans aún se siente un forastero y un peregrino -- primero como judío que vivía en México y ahora como mexicano que vive en Estados Unidos -- y se pregunta si sería importante que los judíos conservaran algún recuerdo de su calidad de errabundos.

Bienvenido a Voces sobre el antisemitismo, una serie de podcasts gratuitos del Museo Conmemorativo del Holocausto de los Estados Unidos que es posible gracias al generoso apoyo de la Oliver and Elizabeth Stanton Foundation. Soy Daniel Greene. Cada dos semanas, invitamos a una persona para que reflexione acerca de las diversas maneras en las que el antisemitismo y el odio influyen en nuestro mundo actual. Desde Amherst College, presentamos al Profesor Ilan Stavans.

ILAN STAVANS:
Crecí en México, entre la década de 1960 y 1970. En ese momento, la comunidad judía, debido a su tamaño, era vulnerable.

Nosotros los judíos, que llegamos a fines del siglo XIX o a comienzos del siglo XX, ya estábamos inmersos en esta maquinaria de estereotipos que había comenzado mucho antes de nuestra llegada, desde el momento de la Inquisición y durante el período colonial -- judíos: prestamistas; judíos: asesinos de Cristo. Y la comunidad se sintió objeto de todo tipo de ataques, principalmente verbales, que provenían de los medios de comunicación y quizás de ciertos grupos políticos.

Sin saber exactamente cómo reaccionar, la comunidad se organizó tratando de encontrar las herramientas de defensa para cualquier violencia que surgiera.

En mi caso en particular, me involucré en este grupo Bitakhon en la década de 1970. Nos reuníamos por la noche y nos entrenaban de diversas maneras para ser capaces de defender a la comunidad de todo tipo de eventualidades que pudieran suscitarse. En ocasiones, simplemente consistía en salir a borrar graffitis antisemitas. En otras, era un poco más físico y confrontábamos a alguien que había confrontado a un miembro de la comunidad.

Para una persona como yo, un judío de la diáspora, un descendiente de inmigrantes europeos del este que hablaban yiddish en México, la idea de tener un ejército como éste, un ejército secreto, era emocionante y atemorizante a la vez.

Principalmente nos entrenábamos con ejercicios físicos, para luchar con nuestras propias manos, para ser capaces de saltar, para ser capaces de escondernos, nada mucho más sofisticado que eso y esa es una de las razones por las que lo veo con una sensación de futilidad, que quizás no tenía en ese momento en particular. Pensamos que, bien, nos estaban entrenando, nos estaban fortaleciendo y podríamos hacer algo.

Pero, ¿podíamos hacer realmente algo? ¿O en realidad se trataba de una estrategia más psicológica que militarista que adoptó la comunidad?

En cualquier caso, en retrospectiva, el tiempo que pasé en Bitakhon, esa experiencia realmente formó mi opinión como judío de la Diáspora, como inmigrante, como persona y como forastero. Recuerdo esos años y esa experiencia en particular me resulta aleccionadora y definitoria.

La sociedad judía mexicana es una comunidad de inmigrantes en más que el sentido simple y tradicional de la palabra porque existía la mentalidad, el estado emocional de haber llegado pero de no haber echado raíces del todo. Allí estábamos. Éramos bienvenidos. Estábamos agradecidos a México, su cultura, su gente, pero éramos diferentes. Nos veíamos diferentes. Actuábamos diferente. Teníamos apellidos diferentes. Comíamos comidas diferentes.

Y siempre estaba esta sensación de que, en caso de que algo ocurriera -- algo con una “A” mayúscula -- debíamos estar preparados. Las maletas debían estar empacadas. Debíamos tener cuentas bancarias en otro lado. Teníamos que tener propiedades en Miami, en Dallas.

La maleta es la prueba de que uno lleva consigo sus pertenencias, aunque uno se vaya a ningún lado. Eso, de muchas maneras, el recuerdo que uno tiene del lugar en el que nació y donde vive se puede empacar, se puede transferir y es temporal. Eso sin importar cuánto tiempo uno se quede en ese lugar, las raíces nunca dejan de ser superficiales.

Nací inmigrante incluso antes de convertirme en inmigrante. Era el nieto de inmigrantes y con el tiempo, igual que mis abuelos, que habían llegado de Polonia y de Ucrania a México, decidí dejar México y venir a los Estados Unidos, pero decidí venir aquí y conservar mi singularidad como minoría.

Le estoy agradecido a este país. Me siento parte de él y comprometido con él. Pero es ese aspecto de la vida de la diáspora judía, el transeúnte, el trotamundos, el vagabundo geográfico lo que permanece en mí.

Y tengo cierta nostalgia o deseo de ver a mis hijos pasar por lo que yo pasé de niño en México -- la sensación de ser y no ser aceptado al mismo tiempo.

Adquirirían el sentido de que el concepto de nación es algo moderno, es transitorio y nosotros, como judíos, podríamos vivir en los Estados Unidos hoy. Mañana, en otro país, así como vivimos en Babilonia o en el Imperio Romano o en Bizancio o en Polonia o en España, pero que iríamos al siguiente país porque no se trata de nuestro entorno inmediato sino del tiempo que pasamos viajando.


AVAILABLE INTERVIEWS:
Harald Edinger
Beverly E. Mitchell
Martin Goldsmith
Tad Stahnke
Antony Polonsky
Johanna Neumann
Albie Sachs
Rabbi Capers Funnye, Jr.
Bruce Pearl
Jeffrey Goldberg
Ian Buruma
Miriam Greenspan
Matthias Küntzel
Laurel Leff
Hillel Fradkin
Irwin Cotler
Kathrin Meyer
Ilan Stavans
Susan Warsinger
Margaret Lambert
Alexandra Zapruder
Michael Chabon
Alain Finkielkraut
Dan Bar-On
James Carroll
Ruth Gruber
Reza Aslan
Alan Dershowitz
Michael Posner
Susannah Heschel
Father Patrick Desbois
Rabbi Marc Schneier and Russell Simmons
Shawn Green
Judea Pearl
Daniel Libeskind
Faiza Abdul-Wahab
Errol Morris
Charles Small
Cornel West
Karen Armstrong
Mark Potok
Ladan Boroumand
Elie Wiesel
Eboo Patel
Jean Bethke Elshtain
Madeleine K. Albright
Bassam Tibi
Deborah Lipstadt
Sara Bloomfield
Lawrence Summers
Christopher Caldwell
Father John Pawlikowski
Ayaan Hirsi Ali
Christopher Browning
Gerda Weissmann Klein
Robert Satloff
Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg


  • Credits
  • Copyright
  • RELATED LINKS
  • Antisemitism
    (Holocaust Encyclopedia article)
  • History of Antisemitism
    (Library bibliography)
  • Antisemitism: Protocols of the Elders of Zion
    (Holocaust Encyclopedia article)
  • Nazi Propaganda
    (Holocaust Encyclopedia article)
  • Racism
    (Holocaust Encyclopedia article)
  • Anti-Jewish Legislation in Prewar Germany
    (Holocaust Encyclopedia article)
  • Christian Persecution of Jews over the Centuries
    (Center for Advanced Holocaust Studies, Committee on Church Relations and the Holocaust)
  • Antisemitism: Special Two-Part Presentation
    (Center for Advanced Holocaust Studies, Scholarly Presentation, December 18, 2003)
  • "Past Revisited? Historical Reflections on Contemporary Antisemitism"
    (Center for Advanced Holocaust Studies, January 2003 Shapiro lecture by Steven Zipperstein)