<DOC> [109 Senate Hearings] [From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access] [DOCID: f:34114.wais] S. Hrg. 109-836 SAUDI ARABIA: FRIEND OR FOE IN THE WAR ON TERROR? ======================================================================= HEARING before the COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY UNITED STATES SENATE ONE HUNDRED NINTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION __________ NOVEMBER 8, 2005 __________ Serial No. J-109-49 __________ Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 34-114 WASHINGTON : 2007 _____________________________________________________________________________ For Sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512-1800; (202) 512ÿ091800 Fax: (202) 512ÿ092250 Mail: Stop SSOP, Washington, DC 20402ÿ090001 COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY ARLEN SPECTER, Pennsylvania, Chairman ORRIN G. HATCH, Utah PATRICK J. LEAHY, Vermont CHARLES E. GRASSLEY, Iowa EDWARD M. KENNEDY, Massachusetts JON KYL, Arizona JOSEPH R. BIDEN, Jr., Delaware MIKE DeWINE, Ohio HERBERT KOHL, Wisconsin JEFF SESSIONS, Alabama DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina RUSSELL D. FEINGOLD, Wisconsin JOHN CORNYN, Texas CHARLES E. SCHUMER, New York SAM BROWNBACK, Kansas RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois TOM COBURN, Oklahoma David Brog, Staff Director Michael O'Neill, Chief Counsel Bruce A. Cohen, Democratic Chief Counsel and Staff Director C O N T E N T S ---------- STATEMENTS OF COMMITTEE MEMBERS Page Feingold, Hon. Russell D., a U.S. Senator from the State of Wisconsin, prepared statement.................................. 106 Leahy, Hon. Patrick J., a U.S. Senator from the State of Vermont. 2 prepared statement........................................... 112 Specter, Hon. Arlen, a U.S. Senator from the State of Pennsylvania................................................... 1 WITNESSES Bakali, Gulam, Secretary, Board of Trustees, Islamic Association of North Texas, Richardson, Texas.............................. 21 Cordesman, Anthony H., Arleigh A. Burke Chair in Strategy, Center for Strategic and International Studies, Washington, D.C....... 15 Emerson, Steven, Executive Director, Investigative Project on Terrorism, Washington, D.C..................................... 16 Glaser, Daniel L., Deputy Assistant Secretary, Office of Terrorist Financing and Financial Crimes, Department of The Treasury, Washington, D.C...................................... 4 Shea, Nina, Director, Center for Religious Freedom, Freedom House, Washington, D.C......................................... 19 QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS Responses of Daniel Glaser to questions submitted by Senator Specter........................................................ 36 SUBMISSIONS FOR THE RECORD Bakali, Gulam, Secretary, Board of Trustees, Islamic Association of North Texas, Richardson, Texas, statement and attachments... 39 Cordesman, Anthony H., Arleigh A. Burke Chair in Strategy, Center for Strategic and International Studies, Washington, D.C., statement...................................................... 45 Emerson, Steven, Executive Director, Investigative Project on Terrorism, Washington, D.C., statement......................... 73 Glaser, Daniel L., Deputy Assistant Secretary, Office of Terrorist Financing and Financial Crimes, Department of the Treasury, Washington, D.C., statement.......................... 107 Mansour, Sheikh Ahmed Subhy, Muslim scholar and human rights activist, Alexandria, Virginia, statement...................... 115 Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI), Yigal Carmon, President, Washington, D.C., statement......................... 143 New York Sun, Daniel Pipes, March 29, 2005, article.............. 151 Shea, Nina, Director, Center for Religious Freedom, Freedom House, Washington, D.C., prepared statement.................... 153 Woolsey, R. James, former Director of Central Intelligence, statement...................................................... 164 SAUDI ARABIA: FRIEND OR FOE IN THE WAR ON TERROR? ---------- TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 8, 2005 U.S. Senate, Committee on the Judiciary, Washington, DC. The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:32 a.m., in Room 226, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Arlen Specter (chairman of the committee) presiding. Present: Senators Specter, Kyl, Brownback, Leahy, and Schumer. OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. ARLEN SPECTER, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF PENNSYLVANIA Chairman Specter. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. It is 9:30. The Judiciary Committee will now proceed with its hearing on the issue of Saudi Arabia and the efforts by Saudi Arabia, or to what extent Saudi Arabia is making efforts to combat terrorism with respect to the dissemination of information and propaganda to Saudis, school children, and people within the area of their influence. On July 25, Mr. Adel Al-Jubeir came to see me to discuss the Saudi Accountability Act, which I had introduced with some 12 cosponsors, calling on the Saudis to implement their efforts to fight terrorism and to take active stands to stop the dissemination of anti-American, anti-Semitic, anti-Christian literature, and as a result of that meeting and certain representations made by Mr. Al-Jubeir, the hearing was scheduled by this Committee for October 25 and was postponed because of the imminence of hearings on Ms. Harriet Miers for the Supreme Court of the United States. Those hearings had been scheduled to start yesterday, and with a little time, collaboration with scheduling by the Ranking Member, we have put this item on our agenda. The seriousness of the issue of terrorism is one which need not be expounded upon at any time. Our relations with Saudi Arabia, the United States' relations with Saudi Arabia, are obviously of great importance to both countries for many, many reasons, but it is critical that we confront squarely the issues of the fight against terrorism and confront squarely the problems created by the dissemination of anti-U.S., anti- Christian, anti-Semitic, anti-Western propaganda which is disseminated with the consent and apparent promotion of the Saudi government. My concerns go back to Khobar Towers and beyond. In the 104th Congress, I chaired the Intelligence Committee and made a trip to Saudi Arabia to witness what had happened at Khobar Towers, talked to the Crown Prince, now the King of Saudi Arabia, and expressed concern about the refusal of the Saudis at that time to permit FBI agents investigating the terrorism which led to the death of 19 Americans and the wounding of hundreds, and the Saudis declined to permit the United States to conduct that investigation. There have been recurrent issues, and the one which we are looking at today, we believe is to be one of really very great importance. With only 2 minutes left, I am going to yield at this point to my distinguished Ranking Member, Senator Leahy. STATEMENT OF HON. PATRICK LEAHY, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF VERMONT Senator Leahy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I may not be quite as brief, but I do believe these are extremely important hearings. As a nation, we cannot defeat al Qaeda or Islamic extremists without the assistance of all our allies in the Middle East. We do recall, most of us do recall, that the Saudis were less than cooperative when the FBI sought to interview Saudi nationals as part of the Khobar Towers bombing which you referred to. The attacks of September 11, 2001, further strained our relationships with Saudi Arabia and they raised some very troubling questions about the Saudi government's commitment to fighting terrorism. There has been some progress, but I believe there is still considerable room for improvement in the Saudi government's current terrorism efforts. The 9/11 Commission noted in its final report that the problems in the U.S.-Saudi relationship must be confronted openly, but we have done little to openly confront the problems in that relationship. Critical information about the role of the government in Saudi Arabia before and after September 11 and its level of cooperation with U.S. law enforcement agencies before and after has been not revealed to the public. Democratic and Republican Senators have asked for it. The administration has denied the public its right to know these crucial facts. Even the former Ambassador from Saudi Arabia to the U.S. asked they be declassified. I must say, Mr. Glaser, I think the administration refuses to confront the Saudi government's role in promoting Islamic extremism. Particularly troubling has been the Saudi government's lavish funding of religious schools and madrasses throughout the region. They promulgate extreme forms of Islam and advocate hatred and violence. They are threatening the existence of more moderate beliefs and practices in the Muslim world. They foster anti-Western, anti-Semitic sentiments. More troubling is the strong link between madrasses and terrorist financing. It is widely known that the Saudi government has permitted and even encouraged fundraising by charitable Islamic groups and foundations that have been linked to known terrorist organizations. Even though they have announced restrictions to private charity organizations and relief groups sending funds overseas, the strict regulation of these restrictions remains to be seen. The President condemns many of the repressive policies of Arab nations. I agree with him, but he seems to have a blind spot when it comes to Saudi Arabia. Last month, he said, quote, ``The United States makes no distinction between those who commit acts of terror and those who support and harbor them because they are equally guilty of murder.'' Strong rhetoric. But then President Bush and Secretary Rumsfeld praised Saudi Arabia, a monarchy that has done more to promote Islamic extremism and discourage the emergence of moderate Muslim leaders than any other nation. The President defends Saudi Arabia's record on civil liberties and religious freedoms, saying earlier this year that, quote, ``The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia recognizes the principle of freedom upon which the United States was founded, including the freedoms enshrined under the First Amendment of the United States Constitution.'' That is so outrageously off the mark that at first when I saw that, I thought somebody had rewritten something, one of the things we might see on a satirical website. After all, the State Department has designated Saudi Arabia as a country of particular concern for its violations of religious freedoms. To suggest they follow the principles that founded this country, especially our First Amendment, is not only laughable, it is discouraging that anybody--anybody in government, not the least of which the President, would say that. The 2004 Country Report on Human Rights Practices of the State Department wrote that in Saudi Arabia, citizens do not have the right to change their government. The government reportedly infringed on individuals' privacy right. They may recognize the freedom enshrined in our First amendment, but they don't allow their citizens to enjoy it. I might say, it is important to understand the extremist ideology promoted in the kind of publications we are going to talk about and broadcast does not reflect the teachings of Islam or the beliefs of the vast majority of Muslims. It forces a distortion of the teachings of Islam. It is also noteworthy to mention the broadcasts of extremist ideology is not limited to the Muslim faith or Saudi television. Several of America's best-known Christian evangelists have made deplorable statements about Islam. These people are seen as speaking for the President and the Vice President. The Reverend Franklin Graham, who gave the invocation at George W. Bush's inauguration, said to NBC News, ``We are not attacking Islam, but Islam has attacked us. I believe Islam is a very evil and wicked religion.'' Now, that is extremely offensive to those Muslims who practice their religion with the best tenets of it. The Reverend Jerry Falwell called the Prophet Muhammed a terrorist. The Reverend Pat Robertson has likened those who practice Islam, including a very large number of very loyal Americans, as our enemy. Just as the majority of Christians or Jews reject these statements, a majority of Muslims reject the publications and broadcasts that will be discussed here. So I commend the Chairman for his efforts to openly address the role of Saudi Arabia in our efforts to fight terrorism. I think this is an extremely important hearing, and I apologize for going almost a minute over. [The prepared statement of Senator Leahy appears as a submission for the record.] Chairman Specter. Thank you very much, Senator Leahy. We had expected to have a witness from the State Department. When this hearing was scheduled originally for October 25, we had a State Department witness and we were notified late yesterday afternoon that the State Department would not be sending a witness. It is anticipated that the Secretary of State will be visiting Saudi Arabia soon and the indications are that the State Department thought from their point of view it was not advisable to have testimony presented at this Senate hearing. I regret that that decision was made. I believe that it is very important to shed light on these important subjects. The Syrian Accountability Act has become law, many features similar to the Saudi Accountability Act, and the Syrian Accountability Act grew cosponsors slowly but is an important piece of legislation. It is the Saudi Accountability Act which has attracted the attention and concern of the Saudi government and I think that is a very healthy thing and I think it is important to be very candid with our friends, the Saudis. If we are to maintain a good relationship, it ought to be in a context where we both speak frankly about what the facts are. The Committee does appreciate the Treasury Department sending Mr. Daniel Glaser here today. He is the Treasury Department's Deputy Assistant Secretary for Terrorist Financing and Financial Crimes and is the primary Treasury official for the development and coordination of international anti-money laundering and counterterrorism financing policy. He has a Bachelor's degree from Michigan, a law degree from Columbia, a very distinguished record in public service. Mr. Glaser, thank you for your appearance here today and we look forward to your testimony. STATEMENT OF DANIEL L. GLASER, DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY, OFFICE OF TERRORIST FINANCING AND FINANCIAL CRIMES, DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY, WASHINGTON, D.C. Mr. Glaser. Chairman Specter, Ranking Member Leahy, and other distinguished members of the Committee, thank you for inviting me to testify today before you on the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. This is an important topic that touches at the very heart of our efforts as a government to combat terrorism throughout the world. We have learned over the last year--the last 4 years that the war on terror requires the collective efforts of every country working to combat terrorism both within its own borders and in every corner of the globe. In this collective fight, we depend on the wisdom, vigilance, and support of both our allies and those whom we traditionally hold at arm's length. Saudi Arabia is, by all measures, one of the countries most central to our global counterterrorism efforts. I would characterize the quality of this relationship as one of active partnership. The successes of global anti-money laundering and counterterrorist financing efforts relies in good measure on ensuring that this partnership is real, focused, and lasting. Today, Saudi Arabia is actively countering the threat of terrorism. This is a key success, unfortunately catalyzed in the May 2003 terrorist attacks in Riyadh, which alerted the Kingdom that terrorism is not a theoretical global problem, but very much a local one. Having now suffered multiple attacks on the Kingdom itself, Saudi Arabia has come to understand the clear and present danger that terrorism and its vast support structures pose to its citizens and the very fabric of everyday life. The United States experienced the same shock on September 11, 2001, and the difficult months and years that have followed. The time has now come for Saudi Arabia to take an active leadership role in all aspects of the war on terrorism. Saudi Arabia is aggressively tackling the scourge of extremism and terrorism it faces within its Kingdom, but those efforts must now translate into action against a broader range of terrorist support activities wherever they are found. In some respects, Saudi Arabia has gone further than many countries in its region to build serious systems aimed at combatting illicit finance. For example, recently, Saudi Arabia has taken measures, such as enhancing measures to target cash couriers, establishing its stringent financial regulatory regime regarding charities, developing a financial intelligence unit. Anecdotal information suggests that these measures have made it more difficult for sponsors of terrorism to fund their causes. We also must acknowledge the extraordinary effort of Saudi Arabia's internal security forces, which have been waging an ongoing battle on the ground with al Qaeda and have themselves sustained casualties. Any assessment of Saudi Arabia's efforts should be understood against that backdrop. While we support and welcome these efforts, resolute leadership against all aspects of terrorist financing is absolutely crucial and Saudi Arabia needs to take its efforts in this area to the next level. For example, abuse of certain charities and NGO's has been an ongoing concern. Saudi Arabia has taken impressive steps with respect to the oversight of its charitable sector as a whole, but it is not clear to us, though, that these restrictions are having true effect on the global operations of certain Saudi-based international NGO's, such as the International Islamic Relief Organization, the World Assembly of Muslim Youth, and the Muslim World League. Saudi officials must concern themselves beyond the limits of restrictions within the Kingdom. They must recognize that organizations so closely associated with Saudi Arabia anywhere in the world are de facto Saudi responsibility. These organizations must become an integral part of Saudi focus and policy. I am not suggesting that Saudi Arabia go it alone. This type of comprehensive strategy will require the coordination of many regional and global counterparts. But Saudi Arabia itself must be actively engaged in ensuring that these organizations are responsive to Saudi oversight. The Saudis must care not only what happens in IIRO-Riyadh, but must also be concerned with what transpires in every other IIRO office around the world. Moreover, formal NGO's are not the only mechanism for raising and transmitting funds to terrorists. Beyond charities, we are concerned about the pocketbooks of private donors who are not currently scrutinized by these stringent regulations. We have raised this issue on numerous occasions with our Saudi counterparts. Especially as charities and NGO's are held under closer scrutiny, it will become increasingly important to focus on the ways in which private giving has and is being abused. Finally, the fight against terrorist financing cannot be limited to al Qaeda funding alone. Just as Saudi Arabia is working to ensure that Saudi funds do not support al Qaeda, it must work equally diligently to thwart the funding of Palestinian terrorist groups that undermine peace and stability in the Middle East. Leadership requires a comprehensive, proactive, and zero- tolerant approach to terrorism that includes widespread vigilance over global charities and wealthy private donors as well as total intolerance for support to all terrorist organizations. We hope that Saudi Arabia accepts this challenge of leadership and the greater responsibilities that come along with it. As Saudi Arabia does so, we will be able to say that we have entered into a new stage of our partnership in the war against terrorism. Thank you. Chairman Specter. Thank you very much, Mr. Glaser. [The prepared statement of Mr. Glaser appears as a submission for the record.] Chairman Specter. We have been joined by Senator Kyl. Senator Kyl, would you care to make an opening statement? Senator Kyl. Mr. Chairman, no, I think it is more important for us to hear from the witnesses. Thank you for holding this hearing. It is just critical and it does followup on some hearings we have had in the Terrorism Subcommittee which early on pointed out the fact that the great bulk of funding for terrorism was coming out of Saudi Arabia. In fact, David Aufhauser, then the General Counsel of Department of Treasury, testified in this room before our Subcommittee that Saudi Arabia was the epicenter of funding for terrorism, and I don't believe that that circumstance has been significantly altered. So it is important that you hold this hearing and I thank you. Chairman Specter. Thank you, Senator Kyl. You have been a leader in this field for a long time. My recollection is that we served on the Intelligence Committee together back in the 104th Congress and have been engaged in these issues. You Chaired the Subcommittee for the Judiciary Committee and have done excellent leadership work. Mr. Glaser, we are going to show a video which reflects the monitoring by the Middle East Media Research Institute on Saudi television channels and it will depict leading Saudi religious leaders, professors, government leaders, and intellectuals this year and last year where they call for the annihilation of Christians and Jews, rampant anti-American and anti-Semitism, support for jihad, incitement against U.S. troops in Iraq, and the coming Islamic conquest of the United States, very, very graphic evidence as to a very intense problem. On May 23 of this year, just a few months ago, the Under Secretary of the Department of the Treasury, Stuart Levey, made this statement, quote, ``In addition to the export of terrorist funds, we are extremely concerned about the export of terror ideologies. These teachings are as indispensable to terrorists as money and possibly even more dangerous. We must do all we can to ensure that extremists' violent ideologies are not disseminated under the cover of religious organizations, charities, or schools.'' The September 2005 GAO report says that Treasury, quote, ``does not identify, monitor, or counter the support and funding of the global propagation of Islamic extremism as it relates to ideology.'' My question is, in light of the explicit Treasury Department policy as articulated by the Under Secretary, how do you account for the fact that the GAO reports that the Treasury Department has done nothing to formalize a program to counter this propaganda? Mr. Glaser. Thank you, Senator. I think that the reference in the GAO report that you are referring to is a legalistic point that it is making, saying that the specific authorities that we have at the Treasury Department to target terrorism, in particular, are Executive Orders, Executive Order 13224, which gives us the authority to impose targeted financial sanctions on supporters of terrorism, focuses on the activities of individuals. It doesn't focus on the ideology of an individual. And I think that is the point that the GAO is trying to make in that. Of course, we can use this authority, though, to undermine the underlying support networks that do promote the propagation of extremist ideology and we have done so. The GAO report mentions our targeting of Al-Haramain Foundation. We have targeted with our authorities Al-Faqih last year. We designated him. The websites that he and his organization were running were propagating extremist ideology. So I think it is important to understand that that quote in the GAO report is speaking to the legal foundation upon which we operate, not to the overall policies that we have at the Treasury Department. Certainly at the Treasury Department, we are very concerned about the propagation of extremist ideology and use the authorities that we have to undermine that as best we can. Chairman Specter. Mr. Glaser, in September of last year, the Bush administration designated the Saudi Al-Haramain charity as a group suspected of supporting terrorism through its main location in Ashland, Oregon, and a mosque in Springfield, Missouri. Assets of both have been frozen since February of 2004. How can it be explained why the Saudis have not shut down all worldwide branches of Al-Haramain as they said they would, according to the State Department? In May of this year, a Treasury official told GAO that it was unclear whether the Saudi government had made any efforts to shut down other branches. What has the Department of the Treasury done to insist on compliance by the Saudis with their commitments? What can the Treasury Department do, or what will the Treasury Department do? I asked you three questions because my time just expired. Mr. Glaser. OK. I will try to answer all of them, Senator. With respect to Al-Haramain Foundation, obviously, it has been a long concern of the Treasury Department and of the entire U.S. Government, and frankly, of the Saudi government, as well. I believe in 2002, the U.S. and Saudi Arabia jointly designated two branches of Al-Haramain Foundation, in Bosnia and in Somalia. Subsequent to that, we jointly designated an additional four or five, and then after that, designated more after that, all in conjunction with Saudi Arabia. In addition to that, the Treasury Department designated the leader of Al- Haramain Foundation. I think at this point, it is safe to say that Al-Haramain Foundation as we have known it is not functioning in the world. The network--the Al-Haramain Foundation that we were concerned about in 2002, 2003, 2004 is no longer in existence. Now, with that said, there is always concerns with respect to any designation, be it Al-Haramain Foundation or any designation that we do, that the individuals who run these networks find other means of moving their money throughout the world. That is why this has to be a constant, vigilant attack. We need to make sure that the individuals who were involved in Al-Haramain Foundation are not finding alternate means of moving their money. They certainly haven't changed their views of the United States or of Israel or of Western civilization as a whole. And I think this gets to the point I was trying to make in my testimony, both in my written and oral testimony, is that this is precisely the sort of issue that Saudi Arabia does need to be concerned about and is to make sure that organizations which have been so closely associated with Saudi Arabia in the past are--that it is absolutely clear where Saudi Arabia stands with respect to those organizations, that it is absolutely clear that those organizations can find no comfort with the government of Saudi Arabia. I think in the case of Al-Haramain, Saudi Arabia has made that clear, but we need to constantly be vigilant. We need to constantly be monitoring. We need to be constantly looking around the world to make sure that any entity we designate doesn't reconstitute itself through other mechanisms, and that is something that the U.S. Government is quite aware of and is always trying to followup on. Chairman Specter. Thank you, Mr. Glaser. Senator Leahy? Senator Leahy. Mr. Glaser, if the Saudi government or its proxies, which sometimes can be just as important, were to provide direct funding to terrorist activities, we could, of course, prosecute those actions. Funding in these schools, as you suggest, is a lot more complicated. In some cases, they may simply provide education to people who wouldn't have had it otherwise. Others, we know they are doing a lot more than that. What steps, if any, are available to the Department of Treasury to address the Saudi's lavish fundings of madrasses when those schools directly advocate extremist interpretations of Islam, including hatred and violence? Or do we have any steps? Mr. Glaser. Thank you, Senator. I think that is an important question. The Treasury Department, I think, has a range of authorities that we could deploy against extremist ideology, against terrorist ideology worldwide. The first and most obvious tool is the one that Senator Specter and I were discussing, and that is designations, especially under Executive Order 13224, and we have and do aggressively use our authority in that area to try to undermine the networks that support global jihad, that support global extremism, and we do that whenever we feel appropriate. You have designated--you mentioned madrasses and charities. We have designated 41 charities under Executive Order 13224. I fully agree with you. Simply because a charity is engaged in beneficial social programs doesn't give it the right to also engage in terrorism, and if it is 99 percent social programs and 1 percent terrorism, that is 1 percent too much and we have to take very aggressive action. Senator Leahy. The 1 percent would--you would move under these various laws if there was even that 1 percent? Mr. Glaser. Absolutely. If we think a charity is involved in terrorism, we will take whatever steps we can to shut the charity down. Senator Leahy. Now, Account 98 has been described as a Saudi government account that funds Palestinian terrorist groups. The Saudis say that Account 98 no longer exists. Is Treasury convinced it no longer exists? How would you verify such a statement? Mr. Glaser. Account 98 has been an issue that we have raised with the Saudis many times over the years. I have personally raised it with the Saudis many times over the years. The Treasury Department has raised it with the Saudis many times over the years, as recently as just last month. Every time we raise Account 98 with the Saudis, we are assured that Account 98 no longer exists. Senator Leahy. Does it exist? Mr. Glaser. We have been assured that Account 98 doesn't exist. Now, I understand-- Senator Leahy. Are you convinced that it doesn't, then? Mr. Glaser. Well-- Senator Leahy. I mean, if you keep raising it, obviously, these assurances from the Saudis are not convincing the Treasury Department. How do you feel? Is it there or isn't it? Mr. Glaser. As the Senator pointed out, there was a recent broadcast that was broadcast through Saudi Arabia which made reference to Account 98. It is very troubling. As I said, we have raised that with the Saudis-- Senator Leahy. Mr. Glaser, you are troubled, I am troubled, a lot of people watching this are troubled. Are the Saudis telling the truth? Does Account 98 exist, in your opinion? Mr. Glaser. Well, my opinion is that we need to look into this and verify that Account 98 does not exist and we are doing so. Senator Leahy. OK. So you are not prepared to say--is it fair to say, in your opinion, it does exist and it hasn't been proven not to exist? Mr. Glaser. It has not been proven not to exist. It is something that-- Senator Leahy. Let us move away from the double negatives. Does it exist? Mr. Glaser. Senator Leahy, I am not trying to evade your question. I am sorry if I appear to be. We are concerned with respect to the existence of Account 98. We are looking into the existence of Account 98. We have asked the Saudis to look into it, as well. We have been assured that it doesn't, but we need to look into it. Senator Leahy. Is it fair to say you have not been satisfied by the statements of the Saudis that Account 98 does not exist? Mr. Glaser. We think the Saudis and the United States need to look into this to ensure that it does not exist. Senator Leahy. In your testimony, you discuss the problem of international NGO's based in Saudi Arabia. The Saudis say these charities are de facto prohibited from sending funds abroad. Do you have confidence in that de facto prohibition, or is there a role for Treasury to play? Like the Chairman, I made sure I ended that just as the clock ran out. Mr. Glaser. Let me just quickly back up for 1 second and explain how the Saudi regulations work with respect to charities and where the loopholes are in that regulatory structure. The Saudis do have a very, very aggressive, comprehensive regulatory structure with respect to the financial activities of charities, and I go into that in some detail in my testimony and it is quite strict. Senator Leahy. That is why I asked the question. Mr. Glaser. There is an exception within that regulatory structure for certain charities that the Saudis regard as international or multilateral organizations. Those are the charities that I named, IIRO, WAMY, and Muslim World League. The Saudis have assured us that, nevertheless, those charities are being treated as if they were under the regulations, and I can say that, again, this is something else that the U.S. and the Saudi government need to look into more, to ensure that these organizations are not, in fact, continuing to fund activities worldwide. In addition, and this is, I think, is a crucial point and a point that I tried to make in my oral statement, is it is not just about these organizations' operations in Riyadh or their operations in Saudi Arabia. Equally of concern is their operations worldwide, which Saudi Arabia has asserted it has very little control over. That is, I think, one of the key issues that we need to continue to engage with the Saudis on, to emphasize to them that, in our view, these institutions, these entities are so closely associated with the Saudi government that they need to accept ownership of them and they need to do everything they can to exert influence in every way that they can, and that is the type of leadership internationally that I think Saudi Arabia is capable of doing and that I certainly hope and expect it will do in the future. Senator Leahy. That is what I was driving at. Thank you. Chairman Specter. Thank you, Senator Leahy. Senator Kyl? Senator Kyl. Thank you. What was their response when you pointed out that the television advertising as late as late August, August 29 of this year, specifically referred to Account 98? Mr. Glaser. They were as puzzled as we were. They asserted again that Account 98 does not exist. Senator Kyl. One of the purposes of this hearing, I think, is to send a message of how disappointed we are in the Saudis. They are not going to change what is a very difficult situation to change, I am sure, until they appreciate fully that most of the policymakers in the U.S. Government are very, very disappointed in their lack of complete cooperation here. Your testimony verifies that we remain disappointed and we remain committed to working with them to close a lot of these so- called loopholes, but obviously, something stronger is going to be needed. I think perhaps since this is above your pay grade, and I wouldn't hold you accountable to telling us what those policies should be, we can at least suggest that if changes are not more forthcoming than they have been, that they can fully expect policies to come from the U.S. Congress and then the administration will have to determine how to deal with those policies. If the President signs legislation, it will be up to people like you to implement it. But we can't continue with this sort of cat-and-mouse game that has characterized the relationship. It is also, I think, important to note that even if there were an absolute commitment by the Saudi government and a sincere desire on the part of the Saudi government to cooperate fully, it would still be a very difficult proposition because of the ingrained traditions in Saudi Arabia and the contributions of a lot of very wealthy individuals through a variety of means that find their way to support terrorism around the world and to support the propagation of the virulent Wahhabi version of Islam. So I don't discount the difficulty of dealing with this, but when you don't see the commitment of the government itself that is 100 percent and you know that even with that, it would be very, very difficult, it is disappointing and I think we have to be pretty clear about our intention to act in a stronger way. Given the fact that, as I said, this is above your pay grade, although I would, frankly, like to see a little stronger--I would expect it out of the State Department more than Treasury. Treasury, I think, could be a little tougher in this regard, but you are not the person to pick on here. We should deal directly with the people who can express the views on behalf of the United States of America directly to the Saudis. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Specter. Thank you very much, Senator Kyl. Thank you, Mr. Glaser. As you hear from the panel, it is an issue of great concern and we really think more has to be done. We appreciate the interest which the Treasury Department has undertaken. We appreciate your efforts, but would encourage you and your colleagues in Treasury to do much, much more. We are now going to have a brief video presentation on monitoring which was done by the Middle East Media Research Institute's TV Monitor Program on Saudi government controlled- television channels, TV1, TV2, as well as the Saudi satellite channel Iqraa. They are continually monitored and we have a short excerpt. [A videotape was shown.] Chairman Specter. Mr. Glaser, would you care to comment about the advocacy in favor of the jihad and the comments on retaliation against the Christians and the Jews? Mr. Glaser. Senator, I think that I probably have the same reaction that you have and that everybody in this room has. It is horrifying to see that sort of thing broadcast. It is what I and my colleagues throughout the U.S. Government spend our entire days and our careers trying to fight against. It is very troubling to see that type of hateful speech broadcast anywhere, and it is certainly troubling to see it broadcast in a place like Saudi Arabia. It is something that we need to all work very closely together to put an end to. It is absolutely unacceptable. Chairman Specter. What is the response of the Saudi government when confronted with this unassailable evidence? They can't deny these words. They can't deny the means of disseminating this virulent, hateful propaganda, and they can't deny that they have the power to stop it. So what do they say? Mr. Glaser. And this is the great challenge for the Saudi government. I truly believe this is the great challenge for them. I think they have come to understand that this type of speech, that this type of ideology is poisonous. It is poisonous in Saudi Arabia. It is poisonous in that region, and it is poisonous throughout the world. They are taking steps, as I pointed out in my testimony, to try to turn some of this around. Now, as has been pointed out already, this is a very difficult challenge for them and it is something that goes to the very heart of their role in the Arab world and in the Islamic world and in the international community. We are calling upon Saudi Arabia to take the steps that it needs to take to put this to an end. When we at the Treasury Department see opportunities to undermine the financial networks that support this type of activity, we take advantage of that, and we do that and we have done so in the past and we will continue to do so. Chairman Specter. One of the items that I discussed specifically with Mr. Al-Jubeir when he came to see me was the issue of what is in the schoolbooks. There have been representations by the Saudis, and this is a recurrent problem throughout the entire Mid-East, that they are taking care, at least for the next generation, to eliminate that kind of insidious propaganda. We are going to be having a witness later in the hearing today who will be testifying that that kind of propaganda is continuing. Have you heard any explanation or effort by the Saudi government to explain away that kind of insidious propaganda directed to children? Mr. Glaser. I think--I apologize. I am not trying to duck any questions, Senator, but I do think that is a question better put to the State Department. At the Treasury Department, we are trying to work to undermine the financial networks that support these types of activities. As I said before, we have raised these activities with the Saudis in the context of some of the broadcasts which have referenced Account 98 and we, of course, are continuing to push the Saudis to take as aggressive of action as possible. Chairman Specter. When the State Department--excuse me for interrupting you, but the time is close to expiring, less than a minute now. When the State Department has confronted the Saudis, and I am sorry the State Department representative is not here to answer this question directly, but you are the best we have, Mr. Glaser, so I am going to ask you. When the State Department has confronted the Saudis, what have the Saudis said? Mr. Glaser. I haven't been present for the discussions at our embassy and that State Department officials have had with the Saudis. I do think the Saudis are beginning to understand the threat that this type of ideology poses not just to the Kingdom, but to the world at large, and I think they are beginning to take steps to counter it. They are not-- Chairman Specter. They are beginning to take steps? Mr. Glaser. Yes, I think they are beginning to take steps. Chairman Specter. When you say ``beginning,'' why just now beginning? Mr. Glaser. Well-- Chairman Specter. When did they begin? And two questions-- time is almost up--when did they begin and what steps are they taking? Mr. Glaser. I think that the attacks in Riyadh in May 2003 were a wake-up call for Saudi Arabia that terrorism and an extremist ideology that supports terrorism is a local problem for Saudi Arabia, that it is not just a theoretical, global problem, but that it is a local problem for Saudi Arabia, and I think that we saw a significant change in the cooperation that we received from the Saudi government from May 2003 on. Now, I think the important thing for--what I would like to see more of is not simply focusing on Islamic extremism as it implicates the Kingdom itself, but the exportation of Islamic extremism. That is some of the very same points that you made yourself, Senator. With respect to some of these NGO's, some of these non- governmental organizations that I mentioned in my testimony, that you yourself have mentioned, it is important that Saudi Arabia take ownership of the problem of the ideology that is put forth by those organizations and take every action it can to make sure that those organizations, which were purportedly set up for charitable purposes, are not being abused and put to hateful and to terrorist ends. Chairman Specter. Thank you, Mr. Glaser. I am advised that these clips are available for viewing in the United States via satellite TV. Senator Leahy, further questions? Senator Leahy. No. I just share your concern that the State Department would not send somebody up here. Mr. Glaser has done a great job. It is unfortunate he has to be the one to answer these, because ultimately, the State Department has to take strong steps. One of the things I would have asked Secretary Rice or her representative, is she willing to speak out strongly when she goes to Saudi Arabia? It is not speaking out strongly to have the top official of our country say that the Saudis have the same or similar commitment to democracy that we saw in our Constitution. I would point out that we have the First Amendment, which guarantees the right to practice any religion you want or none if you want and guarantees your freedom of speech. There are no guarantees in Saudi Arabia or anything like that. I must admit to a concern, I have never had adequate answers about why we flew a planeload of Saudis out of this country right after 9/11, even though most of the hijackers were Saudis. When the FBI testified here, they said, well, we had FBI agents go in and talk to them before they took off. I asked if any FBI agents spoke Arabic. Of course, none did. We are far too cozy with the country that has provided the terrorists who have hit us here. When Under Secretary Levey, according to your testimony, said that wealthy Saudi individuals were still funding violent extremists around the world, is there anything specifically we can do to stop that funding, I mean, other than say we hope that they will stay true to their commitments to democracy, which is carefully hidden? Mr. Glaser. Thank you, Senator Leahy. To address one of the previous points you make, and then I will certainly give you a direct answer to your question, I do think that we have spoken out forcefully with respect to Saudi Arabia. I think it is important that we be balanced in what we say, but I was in Saudi Arabia earlier this year with Homeland Security Advisor Fran Townsend and I can tell you that she was quite unambiguous in the U.S. commitment to support democracy in the region and support democracy within Saudi Arabia. So I think that we have spoken out quite clearly and directly to the Saudis on that issue. With respect to what we can do with respect to donors, private donors within Saudi Arabia, as we locate these donors, there are a number of tools that we have at our disposal. We do have designations at the Treasury, designations under Executive Order 13224, and we have used those. We have used those against wealthy Saudi donors in Saudi Arabia, Batterji, Jalaluddin. These are examples of wealthy Saudi donors that we have designated. Now, there are other options that we have. We have a joint task force on the ground with the IRS Criminal Investigative Division and the FBI working very closely with Saudi police to pursue law enforcement in those types of actions with respect to these donors as we come up with them. But what is vital is that we have the information that we need to pursue these. This is not something, obviously, that we could do at the Treasury Department. As we get the information, we act upon it. But we do--at the end of the day, if an individual is in a particular country, we need to work very closely with that country in order to have success with respect to responding to that individual, and that is why the relationship with Saudi Arabia is so important, because there are wealthy donors in Saudi Arabia, as Under Secretary Levey said, and we need as much cooperation as we can get to make sure that we crack down on them. Senator Leahy. I couldn't agree with you more. I couldn't agree with you more. Thank you, Mr. Glaser. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Specter. Thank you, Senator Leahy. Senator Kyl will be rejoining us, but does not have any further questions, so we thank you for coming in, Mr. Glaser. Thank you very much. Mr. Glaser. Thank you, Senator. Chairman Specter. I now call our second panel, Mr. Anthony Cordesman, Mr. Steve Emerson, Ms. Nina Shea, and Mr. Gulam Bakali. We had requested or invited the Saudi government to send a representative to these hearings in our policy of being balanced and asking people on all sides to testify. The Saudi government declined, but did recommend Mr. Anthony Cordesman as a prospective witness and he will lead our second panel. Professor Cordesman holds the Arleigh A. Burke Chair in Strategy, Co-Director of the Middle East Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. He is a military analyst for ABC, served in senior positions in the Office of the Secretary of Defense, State, Energy, and the Defense Advanced Research Projects. He has written extensively on security developments in North Africa and Arab-Israeli States. Thank you for agreeing to come in, Mr. Cordesman. Our practice is to have 5-minute statements and then 5-minute rounds of questioning by members of the panel. The floor, Professor Cordesman, is yours. STATEMENT OF ANTHONY H. CORDESMAN, ARLEIGH A. BURKE CHAIR IN STRATEGY, CENTER FOR STRATEGIC AND INTERNATIONAL STUDIES, WASHINGTON, D.C. Mr. Cordesman. Thank you very much, Senator. This is an extraordinarily complex set of issues and I do have a formal statement for the record, which I request--that it will be made a part of the record in full. Chairman Specter. Your formal statement will be made a part of the record in full, as will all other statements which have been submitted to the Committee. Mr. Cordesman. Let me just make a few quick points of introduction. The first point is, if you pick the worst, you get the worst, and there are organizations which make almost a full-time effort to find the worst possible rhetoric in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, other Arab states, and Islamic countries, just, as unfortunately, as there are other organizations which are equally indiscriminate in finding the worst rhetoric from nations like Israel. Much of what has been said is very real, and Saudi Arabia is going to take time, at best, to make the changes that it should make. What bothers me about the approach that you are taking is, frankly, that I do not believe singling out Saudi Arabia or ``Wahhabi'' practices focuses on the real problem. I think extremist neo-Salafi movements are not derived from Saudi practices. They have their origin in ideologies coming from Egypt, which indeed is where bin Laden and Zarqawi derived their ideology. There are some very good analyses of what the broader issues are in Islamic extremism by the Crisis Group, which I think would be described as one of the most balanced looks by any organization at the problems and tensions in this region, and I would commend that to the Committee. There is one called ``Understanding Islamism,'' which is a report they issued in March of this year. I think the great problem we face here is also understanding just how serious anger is against us in the Islamic and Arab world and the reasons for which that anger occurs. It is, unfortunately, our alliance with Israel. It is our presence in Iraq. These are not policies that I in any way oppose, but they do have a very powerful cost, and if you look at polls of popular reactions in Jordan, Morocco, Turkey, other Islamic countries, or countries with strong Islamic movements, you find broad-based support for extremism, violence, and sometimes bin Laden. These countries do not have strong Wahhabi presence, practices and beliefs. ``Wahhabism'' in itself is not the problem. The second point I would make is that I do see real progress in Saudi Arabia. I don't think you are going to get instant progress. I have never seen instant progress in any aspect of that country and I have been pushing for reforms in the kingdom for several decades, long before 9/11. But they have cooperated with us in Iraq, in spite of the fact they did not support the Iraq war. They have had an increasing cooperation in counterterrorism, and in my visits there, I find the U.S. embassy and people in the U.S. security community praising the enhanced cooperation. Is it complete? No. But in areas like education, in areas like religion, I think you do see movements toward reform. I do have to say that, frankly, I think some of the discussion here this morning on the financing of terrorism is ridiculous. I would love to see somebody stop talking in generic terms and tell me what the financing streams are by terrorist organization, because I don't believe that Saudi Arabia is the cause. I think most of these organizations have ample sources of other funding. And if it had not been for 9/ 11, I think we would be focusing on the fact that Qatar, Egypt, and many other countries have a powerful flow of private money. And given the fact that there is nearly, at this point, a trillion dollars worth of private capital in private facilities in Europe, your chances of controlling this are about as good as your chances of winning the war on drugs. Quoting or having excerpts from a satellite program that isn't based in Saudi Arabia doesn't really tell you very much about Saudi television coverage or culture. Picking out the worst of what is said in Saudi Arabia doesn't tell you much about the overall thinking in Saudi Arabia, or the attitudes of the Saudi government. I think we need to be very careful this morning and in the future to focus on Saudi Arabia's very real problems and the pace of reform that can occur and not to ignore the nature of what is happening in the Middle East as a whole. I do believe that we have many tools, and I will be happy to discuss them with the Committee, if you are interested. We could do a much better job as a government, not only in dealing with Saudi Arabia, but with dealing with all of the countries in this region. The fact that 9/11 had 15 Saudis is not the issue here. They could as easily have come from Egypt or Morocco or many of the other countries where these movements occur. They are not Wahhabi and that is not their source of origin. They are extreme neo-Salafists movments and not derived from Saudi religious practices. Chairman Specter. Thank you very much, Professor Cordesman. [The prepared statement of Mr. Cordesman appears as a submission for the record.] Chairman Specter. Our next witness is Mr. Steven Emerson, Executive Director of the Investigative Project on Terrorism, one of the world's largest data and intelligence centers on Islamic and Mid-East terrorist groups. He is an internationally recognized expert who frequently testifies before Congressional Committees on the operational networks of al Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, and the other terrorist organizations. We appreciate your being here, Mr. Emerson, and look forward to your testimony. STATEMENT OF STEVEN EMERSON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, INVESTIGATIVE PROJECT ON TERRORISM, WASHINGTON, D.C. Mr. Emerson. Thank you, Senator Specter, and thank you, Senator Leahy, for having this hearing, which I believe resulted in the State Department yesterday releasing its report on violations of religious freedoms-- Senator Leahy. You don't think that was a coincidence? [Laughter.] Mr. Emerson. The State Department acts in strange and mysterious ways. Chairman Specter. Let me interrupt you for just a minute on that, Mr. Emerson, and we will start your clock back at 5 minutes, but I think it is informative and significant. Why do you think this hearing motivated the release of the report? Mr. Emerson. I think the fact that the hearing was supposed to be held 2 weeks ago and that it was delayed and that it was held now without the participation of the State Department meant that they were seen as almost obstructing the hearing or impeding it-- Chairman Specter. Almost obstructing? Mr. Emerson. All right, obstructing. I will take out the qualification. I think-- Chairman Specter [continuing]. Instant modification. Mr. Emerson [continuing]. And I think the opportunity for them to basically try to deflect some of the culpability for obstructing the hearing was manifested in the presentation of that report, which I think is a good report. It should have been presented last month pursuant to the Act that was passed by Congress. Chairman Specter. Your 5 minutes begins now. Mr. Emerson. All right. Thank you. Twenty years ago, I wrote a book called The American House of Saud: The Secret Petrodollar Connection. It was written in 1985 and it talked about the political strings attached to Saudi Arabian investments and donations and funding to academic centers in the United States and how it essentially acquired legitimacy by purchasing it through registered agents and donations. I find myself now 20 years later returning over and over to the same problem. In the years prior to 9/11, the U.S. Government and most everybody else paid little attention to the flow of money and propaganda coming from Saudi Arabia, promoting the Wahhabist agenda, and there is no doubt, as my co-panelist, Dr. Cordesman, has stated, that Saudi Arabia is not the only exporter or shouldn't be targeted as the exclusive exporter of militant Islam, because the Muslim Brotherhood has done that for years. But Saudi Arabia's petrodollars have been absolute vehicles and their legitimacy as the custodian of Islam, as they have represented themselves, have given them the ability to project their views of Islam, which I do not believe represent mainstream Islam, but it unfortunately has had a domino chain reaction in influencing the views of organizations and madrassats and other institutions around the world. Because of its vast petrodollar riches, it has been able to pursue its puritanical interpretation, described in shorthand as Wahhabism, in indoctrinating young Muslims, controlling the direction of major Islamic religious institutions, and extending the Wahhabist doctrine around the four corners of the globe. The question now we face in 2005 is whether, in fact, Saudi Arabia has changed or the representations that they need post- 9/11, that they are actually redirecting the activities of the NGO's, that they are exercising controls over the organizations, that they are trying to stop the export of extremism. How true is this? Have they actually changed the textbooks? Have they actually reigned in those NGO's? Those are the metrics that we need to be specifically focusing on. I can't pretend that I have all the answers, but I can tell you that pursuing an investigation as I have for the last 10 years, and over the course of the last year in particular, looking at Saudi Arabia websites, publications, broadcasts, textbooks, and the institutional recipients here in the United States, I can say that there are certain conclusions that I would come to. One, Saudi organizations and leaders operating with the permission or acquiescence of the Saudi regime continue to promote a virulent anti-Western propaganda and raise serious questions of whether the regime itself is trying to comprehensively crack down on the sources and support for Islamic terrorism. While there have been efforts to sanitize Saudi websites and publications, the fact of the matter is, there are still significant websites, including those officially attached to the Saudi government, that call for jihad and that disseminate anti-Christian or anti-Jewish theology. There have been some constraints imposed by the Saudi government on NGOs, but, in fact, the primary perpetrators and disseminators of radical Islamic theology, the Muslim World League, the World Assembly of Muslim Youth, have not been reigned in under the official governance and package announced by the Saudi government. Saudi funding of Hamas continues. There was a courier arrested in Israel in September and apparently he was a courier transferring funds between Saudi Arabia and the Palestinian territories. Saudi government officials, in response to questions about whether, in fact, they are involved in stopping the flow of extremism, have vehemently claimed that they are, but they have made outrageous anti-Semitic allegations and claiming somehow that the al Qaeda attacks in Saudi Arabia that have occurred since 2003 are part of a Zionist conspiracy. Saudi religious figures continue to call for jihad against the United States. Saudi officials in the United States and American recipients of Saudi funds here continue to detract attention from the extremists by alleging there is a campaign against Saudi extremism that is racist. In fact, it is the Saudi campaign that is racist. Senior Islamic terrorists, Yasin Al-Kadi and others designated by the United States as al Qaeda supporters, have never been sanctioned. So in the end, the question is what are the metrics? How are we going to verify their representations to us? I believe the record shows that the campaign of quiet diplomacy, of trying to nudge them along and push them without publicly criticizing them, has not paid the dividends that we need to see, and therefore, I believe your act that you have supported is something that would be vitally important in putting them on record and demanding a set of metrics and standards that they have to adhere to. Thank you. Chairman Specter. Thank you very much, Mr. Emerson. [The prepared statement of Mr. Emerson appears as a submission for the record.] Chairman Specter. Our next witness is Ms. Nina Shea, Director of the Center for Religious Freedom. She serves on the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom and represented the United States as a public delegate to the U.N. Commission on Human Rights in 1993 and again in 2001. Her organization recently published the report, ``Saudi Publications on Hate Ideology Invade American Mosques'' in January of this year. We appreciate your coming in, Ms. Shea, and we look forward to your testimony. STATEMENT OF NINA SHEA, DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR RELIGIOUS FREEDOM, FREEDOM HOUSE, WASHINGTON, D.C. Ms. Shea. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, members of the Committee. Two years ago, a Muslim American friend and colleague of mine handed me this little pamphlet and told me to read it. It was in Arabic, and so we had it translated, and it says--it gives detailed instructions on how to build a wall of resentment between the Muslim and the infidel. Never greet the Christian or Jew first. Never congratulate the infidel on his holiday. Never befriend an infidel unless it is to convert him. Never imitate the infidel. Never work for the infidel. Do not wear a graduation gown, because this imitates the infidel, and so on. The cover of this book giving this particular instruction states, ``Greetings from the Cultural Attache, Washington, D.C.,'' this from the Embassy of Saudi Arabia here in Washington. So Freedom House's Center for Religious Freedom decided to go forward and take on a study addressing the question, is Saudi Arabia, our purported ally in the war on terror, responsible for having planted extremist propaganda within our borders? In order to document the Saudi influence, the material for this report was gathered from a selection of more than a dozen prominent sites in large American cities, and these materials cover--have publication dates spanning four decades, including dates after 9/11. The study did not attempt any general survey of American mosques or American Muslims. In fact, we believe American Muslims overwhelmingly reject these directives. The various Saudi publications gathered for the study state that it is a religious obligation for Muslims to hate Christians and Jews and warn against imitating or helping them in any way. They instill contempt for America because the U.S. is ruled by legislated civil law rather than by totalitarian Wahhabi-style Islamic law. Some of the publications direct Muslims not to take American citizenship as long as the country is ruled by infidels. The textbooks and documents our researchers, who themselves were Muslim, collected preach a Nazi-like hatred for Jews and treat the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as historical fact, and Mr. Chairman, as you know, this was a document--this protocols was a document used by Hitler to indoctrinate Nazi use, now being exported by Saudi Arabia, by the government of Saudi Arabia to the United States. These documents show a particular vicious hatred toward other Muslims, especially those who advocate tolerance. These Muslims are condemned as infidels. The opening fatwa in one embassy-distributed booklet responds to a question by a Muslim preacher in Europe who taught that it is not right to condemn Christians and Jews and infidels, and the Saudi state cleric's reply rebukes the Muslim cleric. ``He who casts doubt upon their infidelity leaves no doubt about his,'' and that is basically a death threat, because in Saudi Arabia it is a crime, a capital offense to be an apostate. Sufian Shiite Muslims are also viciously condemned in these documents. Others in our collection declare that Muslims who engage in interfaith dialog are also unbelievers. Regarding those who fail to uphold Wahhabi sexual mores through homosexual activity or heterosexual activity outside of marriage, the edicts found here advise, quote, ``it would be lawful for Muslims to spill his blood and take his money.'' Regarding those who convert out of Islam, it is explicitly asserted in some of these documents, they should be killed. They show an ideology that embraces a dualistic world view in which there exists two antagonistic realms that can never be reconciled, and that when Muslims are in the land of the infidel, they must behave as if on a mission behind enemy lines. So this is an ideology whose message is that Muslims should live in ghettoized enclaves with enmity and hostility against others. An insidious aspect of this propaganda is its attempt to replace traditional and moderate interpretations of Islam with Wahhabi extremism. These replies in the fatwa collections distributed by the embassy and by other agencies of the government, whether it is the Education Ministry or Cultural Ministry, are given an authoritative pronouncements that the introduction should be official guides for preachers, mosque imams, and students living far from the Kingdom. So this is a hate-filled ideology, not just speech, and it is educational and authoritative. Mr. Chairman, my time is out. I just want to say, we have not attempted to measure, again, the impact of this here. We know that King Fahd states the cost for spreading the stuff has been astronomical on the King Fahd website, which is still up even though he is gone. We haven't measured the effect. I know that most Muslims here are law-abiding citizens. Mr. Aliami, who is here today, saw firsthand in Saudi Arabia--he is a Saudi dissident living here now--he doesn't want to see this stuff here. His son served honorably in Iraq with the American military as an officer, so this is not a comment on American Muslims. It is a comment on Saudi Arabian government responsibility. Thank you very much. Chairman Specter. Thank you, Ms. Shea. [The prepared statement of Ms. Shea appears as a submission for the record.] Chairman Specter. Our next witness is Mr. Gulam Bakali, who serves on the Board of Trustees of the Islamic Association of North Texas. He was formerly its Chairman. Mr. Bakali's mosque was one of the mosques surveyed in the Freedom House report. He is Project Manager for Lockwood Green, a major global engineering construction firm. Thank you very much for coming to Washington today, Mr. Bakali, and we are very much interested in your testimony. You may proceed. STATEMENT OF GULAM BAKALI, SECRETARY, BOARD OF TRUSTEES, ISLAMIC ASSOCIATION OF NORTH TEXAS, RICHARDSON, TEXAS Mr. Bakali. Good morning and thank you, Senator Specter and the rest of the members of the Committee. I appreciate the opportunity to come and talk about this report. Our basic focus is to talk about who we are, as referenced in the report, organizations referenced in the literature that was picked up, and it is incumbent upon me this morning, on behalf of my community, to help explain what we are rather than being extrapolated otherwise. At the very beginning, our mosque has neither been filled nor invaded by the literature alluded to in the report. The majority of the congregation do not understand Arabic as a language to even read, absorb, and propagate the line of thinking alleged to be advanced by such documents. Furthermore, the total number of books and literature, we have thousands. IANT, being the largest organization in the area, provides the library as a service to not only Muslims, but all faith-based groups for research and special projects. Our records indicate that the books referenced in the Freedom House report as collected from the Richardson mosque were not found in the library, were not ordered or purchased by IANT, were not distributed to the congregation, were not read from to the IANT congregation, were not promoted for purchase to the congregation, and were definitely not used to develop or author any position paper to promote a point of view. In fact, the majority of members do not access the library unless there is a dire need for academic research or something similar. The library operations amount to a small portion of what we currently do. We certainly feel that we have been wronged by this report that initially was published this year. We certainly have no knowledge of such documents being present, nor have we ever endorsed these materials. We invite you and the Committee to visit our facility and see our community firsthand. We have submitted for the record all our activities, and I urge you to indulge in those. You may join us at any of our Friday prayers, any classes, and any interfaith events. In the past several years, hundreds of government officials and candidates have observed our Friday prayers. Our U.S. Senators, along with several U.S. Congress Representatives, have been to our community gatherings. city of Richardson officials, FBI officials both past and present know many of our leaders personally and have been to many interfaith and community gatherings. We would love to host any of you who seek to understand us further and ask questions. Only by asking and listening to each other can we initiate and establish a better understanding about who we are as Americans. I have been with this organization 25 years continuously and can say with conviction some of the defining attributes as to who we are. A place of worship for Muslims, yes. A place for advanced Islamic studies, those who want to do more soul- searching. A private school teaching Islamic and public school curriculum 6 days a week throughout the year, very rigorous, more so than any private school. A free medical clinic for the underprivileged. A place where other faith-based organizations can collaborate. Home for the youth to learn leadership skills, Scouts, and Habitat for Humanity. All this data has been submitted to you. A place where women can do their own programs. A welcoming center for new arrivals on the American shores. We have a refugee center. An adult retraining center for those who have been affected by the economy, computer classes and what not. A banquet hall, gymnasium for parties, events, basketball games. A humanity and civics group indulging in soup kitchen, Adopt-a-Highway, Katrina relief, and so on. And most recently, the last 5 years or so, we have been a very prominent member for the State Department's International Visitor Leadership Program and have hosted visitors from at least 12 to 15 countries. This certainly does not paint a picture of an indoctrinated community, reclused to themselves and full of hate for America. We are very proud of our 30-year heritage in the North Texas region as a place of worship, and more importantly, a center for sharing information about Islam in America, in particular. We plan to continue our open-door policy wherein every segment, group, race, or faith-based organization of our society is welcome to join us, understand who we are, and share the concerns and beliefs to help and reach our society. Our partners and patrons are many and they can further attest about our organization and what we stand for. Not to single a few out, but Thanksgiving Square, city of Richardson, Habitat for Humanity, Carter Blood Center, Arapaho United Methodist Church, North Texas Food Bank, and the list goes on. Thank you very much for this opportunity, Senator. Chairman Specter. Thank you very much, Mr. Bakali, for your testimony. We acknowledge at the outset that the Muslim community in the United States has contributed a great deal to our country and to our culture and we welcome the Muslim community as a nation welcomes the very diverse representations which we have in our country. When we express concern about what some extremists do, it does not reflect in any way upon the Muslims in America. We regard you as first-class American citizens, and I think it is important to keep that in perspective and the experience you have had on the Board of Trustees and Chairman of the Board of Directors of the Islamic Association of North Texas is very important to bring before the Committee, so we thank you. [The prepared statement of Mr. Bakali appears as a submission for the record.] Chairman Specter. Ms. Shea, you have quoted from some of the documents from the Saudi embassy. Is there anything specific in those documents which relates to the information given to children in textbooks? Ms. Shea. Well, we have collected from various sites textbooks, as well. For example, this one has the Saudi seal on it and it is published by--these are published by the Education Ministry or the Girls' Teaching. Some of these textbooks are-- Chairman Specter. What do the textbooks contain relevant to the issue of how Christians are characterized, how Americans are characterized, how Jews are characterized? Ms. Shea. Absolutely. A third-year high school textbook, for example, talks about don't help or imitate the infidel Christians or Jews in any way. An 11th grade textbook in our collection is very anti-Semitic, saying Jews lured women to go to work, that kind of thing. Chairman Specter. Well, never mind that kind of thing. Let us hear it. Can you read it? While you are taking a look at it, Mr. Emerson, you refer to textbooks in the course of your testimony. Do you have anything specific to put into the record as to what the textbooks contain with respect to how Americans are characterized or Christians are characterized or Jews are characterized? Mr. Emerson. A few years ago, we collected a series of textbooks that were published by the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and disseminated by the embassy here in Washington. Now, I can't represent that they are still being circulated today, those particular textbooks, but I did speak to several people in the Middle East in the last 2 weeks as we were preparing for this testimony in terms of having them try to acquire current textbooks. We spoke to several people actually in Saudi Arabia who are involved right now in securing some of the current textbooks. But I can tell you that textbooks that continue to be in circulation in the U.S. as well as in Europe, published by the Kingdom, have called specifically-- Chairman Specter. Can you give us a date when they were published by the Kingdom? Mr. Emerson. Yes, we can give you-- Chairman Specter. What is the date? Mr. Emerson. The dates that we have of some of those publications go back to the 1990's and early 2000 period. Chairman Specter. And do you have any evidence that they are currently in use? Mr. Emerson. We have evidence that some of them are still in use in the United States and some of them are still being used in Europe. I can't represent that at this date, November, that those books are still being used in Saudi Arabia, and to a certain extent, they can't necessarily be blamed if books that they have now stopped publishing, and if they disavowed, which would be great, are being used by others. Chairman Specter. Have they been disavowed? Mr. Emerson. Not as far as I know. They claim that they have sanitized some of the textbooks. They have claimed that, and this has been a big issue-- Chairman Specter. Have you asked them for evidence on that? Mr. Emerson. I have not asked them directly for evidence. We have tried to acquire the textbooks directly from Saudi educational institutions and we are in the process of acquiring them now. Chairman Specter. Professor Cordesman, you testified that there have been improvements, as you characterized it, reform in education and religion. Could you be more specific? As a sub-part of the question, do you know, firsthand knowledge, whether there has been a change in the Saudi textbooks testified to by Ms. Shea and Mr. Emerson? Mr. Cordesman. There has been a change in the textbooks. The problem is that nobody knows how quickly they are being disseminated. You are talking about a relatively large country-- Chairman Specter. But you have seen specific changes in the textbooks? Mr. Cordesman. Yes. I have seen copies of the changes. I don't sit around and collect the textbooks, Senator, and I have to have them translated, as others do. Changing the textbooks is part of a 3-year program, and it is not going to be quick or instant. It is a political struggle for the Saudi government against not only a conservative Saudi public, but unfortunately, a significant number of Jordanian, Egyptian, and very conservative teachers. It is not, however, something that is going to be quick or easy. The textbooks are being changed, and I would ask the Committee to ask the Saudis to provide the demonstrations, because for anybody on the outside, you are asking us to count the impossible. On the side of the clergy, I have seen more obvious signs because there are protests when I visit Saudi Arabia and some of the imams have been disciplined. Now, part of the problem is, Since there are no madrassas in the Kingdom, every imam in Saudi Arabia is a government employee. You have a long legacy of people who, at the extremes, were allowed to preach and say almost anything as long as it didn't have internal political impact. It is not going to be easy to change that clergy, but the fact that they are complaining about the government's interference is at least a reassuring sign. Chairman Specter. My time expired in the middle of your answer, but I will make just one comment with respect to what you have requested the Committee to do. We have asked the Saudi government for the texts and have not received them. The textbooks are said to be in the process of being translated. This follows a recurrent pattern of seeking information and being delayed and not getting it, but it is something the Committee is pursuing. Senator Kyl? Senator Kyl. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Let me just begin, Tony, with you. You say we can't demand instant change, and nobody is suggesting that things have to change instantly, but we are looking for demonstrated efforts in the right direction. There are simply a lot of folks who, while acknowledging efforts that have been made, don't see them as enough. Second, you know that others are radical, too, and they promote it, noting people from Egypt and so on, and that is true. But the big bucks have come from Saudi Arabia. Let me ask you this question. I alluded to it before. The former General Counsel of the Department of Treasury testified before my Subcommittee that Saudi Arabia was the epicenter for terrorist financing around the world, and that was just a couple of years ago. You note that Saudi Arabia began to try to control funding in the 1990's and that governmental efforts to control terrorist financing have sharp limits and have probably reached the point of diminishing returns. Do you disagree with the Treasury Department's earlier statement, or are you saying that the situation has been corrected since then? Mr. Cordesman. I disagree with it. I have seen this approach used in many other cases by government officials and by the intelligence community. If you want to know where the financing is, you look at the individual movements and you try to figure out whether you have real evidence. You do not go with generalizations. If I say that there are Mennonite terrorists in Pennsylvania and they get $13 billion a year from Germany and I repeat it often enough, somebody may actually believe it. When I want to know where in bin Laden's organization the money actually is going, I don't ask about generic money. I want to know where that financing is coming from. The same is true for Zarqawi inside Iraq. It would be true in other cases that the financing probably was Saudi. Certainly, it was in the Pakistani madrasses that this Committee has focused on. But one needs to be careful about the content of those madrasses because it was President Zia of Pakistan who was encouraging those madrasses as a counterbalance to the secular movements inside Pakistan and that was perfectly all right for us as long as it was part of getting the Soviets out of Afghanistan. Senator Kyl. Tony, could I--we are getting kind of far afield, and I don't agree with that policy any more than I gather you do. I am primarily interested just in your view about this terrorist financing. The people from the Treasury Department have gotten very specific about specific bank accounts and specific countries and specific charities and so on and-- Mr. Cordesman. Senator, there is a vast amount of Saudi money out there that shouldn't have gone where it has gone. The recipients of this money and their ties to terrorists, however, are what matter. The idea that somehow Saudi Arabia is the source of the money on which these groups depend, is not true. As I think you know, there is a member of the Qatari royal family who contributes significant amounts of money to these groups. I could go down case after case. Senator Kyl. There are others, but would you disagree with the statement that of all of the places where funding for terrorist-related activity has come from, that the largest single country from which it comes is Saudi Arabia? Would you disagree with that statement? Mr. Cordesman. I think if you talk about moving money out of the country to extremist organizations, it would be Saudi Arabia. If you talked about what dominates terrorist financing, which is what you began with, it would not be Saudi Arabia. Senator Kyl. Steve Emerson, let me ask you, since your original testimony was cut short a little bit, to comment on this exchange right now, please. Mr. Emerson. Well, I think I would make several points. One is I don't think we can make this clear distinction between, quote, ``terrorist financing''--you can make a clear distinction legally between terrorist financing versus financing of extremism, but I think it should be very clear that the massive billions of dollars the Saudi Arabian government has pumped into radical Islam and the Wahhabist views of Islam, in terms of their publications or websites, NGO's that are quasi-official representatives of the government have promoted a view of the world in which it is legitimate to attack infidels or Jews or Christians and you can carry out 9/ 11-style attacks. So the extremist funding coming from Saudi Arabia has created the environment and the virus in which terrorism occurs. Now, the issue is trying to get a handle on this. I believe that the Saudi abilities have--the Saudi willingness to curtail the financing of Islamic extremist movements, they have not been willing to publicly declare and followup--emphasis on the followup--in terms of restricting the flow of money. WAMY, MWL, those are two NGO's that are fundamentally anti- Semitic and anti-Christian. Let me just read you one quote here. It was from a New York Times story in 2004. I read you the quote. Quote, ``'Saying that the Jews and the Christians are infidels is part of our religious dogma,' said Saleh S. al- Wohaibi, the American-educated Secretary General of the World Assembly of Muslim Youth. `Any changes in the way it is taught should be decided by the Saudis,' he said, adding, `it doesn't mean we try to incite hatred against others, but my religion has its own principles that should not be violated or changed.''' In other words, his dogma is hatred of Jews and Christians, and unfortunately, you can see that represented today even on official Saudi government websites. Look, they could take down these sites. Al-islam.com, which is part of the Saudi Arabian Ministry of Islamic Affairs Endowments and Guidance, continues to call for killing Jews. MWL's website in Canada calls Jews a racist religion. I could list over and over in specifics. I know Dr. Cordesman said, we want specifics. I don't deal in generalities. I deal in specifics. And the specifics are that the regime itself is wrapped up and continues to promote an ideological virus that, unfortunately, ends up legitimizing terrorist attacks, because in the end, terrorism can only flow from the decision by someone who says it is acceptable to kill somebody else who is not my religion. Senator Kyl. And I would note, Mr. Chairman, that we have focused not just on the funding of cells of terrorists conducting violent operations, but also on the whole question of the winning of the hearts and minds, the incitement to terror which precedes the action itself. So I think both of the points are legitimate. Chairman Specter. Thank you very much, Senator Kyl. Senator Schumer? Senator Schumer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the hearing and the efforts of all of our witnesses here. You know, I would say this to Mr. Cordesman. You can point out other bad examples, but what has gone on in Saudi Arabia is as plain as the nose on your face, on any of our faces, and that is that there has been a link to Wahhabism all along. I don't know if it is called the official Saudi religion, but it is, and Wahhabism believes in many, many extreme things such as Mr. Emerson outlined. Here is what I think happened. Well, I want to ask you, I mean, do you disagree with any of the specifics that he cited? Are any of them wrong? Is it true that an official Saudi website--how would we react in America, or anywhere else, if it said that it is OK to kill Jews? Why don't they take that down? And don't you think that their precarious political balance with the royal family needs Wahhabism to protect itself and make itself OK to the people is sort of a deal, almost a deal with--I don't want to use the word, but a deal with someone very bad? Mr. Cordesman. No, Senator, I don't agree with you. Senator Schumer. Well, explain to me-- Mr. Cordesman. Are there any examples in Wahhabi teaching which I completely disagree with? Yes. Do I watch, as Senator Leahy pointed out, similar examples of extremism and poor rhetoric on the parts of Christians and does that lead me to generalize about Christian teaching in the U.S.? Senator Schumer. No one is generalizing, sir, about Muslim teaching or Islam. Mr. Cordesman. I am talking about-- Senator Schumer. I am asking you about Wahhabism. Mr. Cordesman. And that is specifically what I am answering. I have been going in and out of that country for more than 30 years. Senator Schumer. And you think Wahhabism, the main thrust of Wahhabism is not what these two folks have been talking about, that hatred, that inferiority of non-Muslims and non- Wahhabi Muslims isn't part of the warp and woof of Wahhabism? Mr. Cordesman. I think it is part of the margin. I think it is part of the extreme views in Saudi Arabia. Senator Schumer. When anyone writes to the Saudi government and says, take this off your website, I would like to know--I mean, your main testimony, as I watched it, has been they are not doing as many bad things as they used to. I would like to know affirmative things they do to stop all of this. I believe in affirmative action here in America, OK, even though--I believe it because we have had a long, tawdry history about race and we ought to make up for it until there is equality. Well, the Saudis have had a long, tawdry history--Wahhabism has a long, tawdry history in terms of this hatred. I mean, as you know, it was OK. Terrorism against Jews in Israel was perfectly OK, women, children. There are countless statements where Saudi leaders have said that is OK, and only after 9/11, when it started being directed at other people, did they officially sort of change their view. I think it was a short step from one to the other. Shouldn't they be, if they have changed, shouldn't there be some affirmative signs? Shouldn't they take a website like this down? Saying we are doing less of bad things isn't good enough. Can you point to some affirmative things that they are doing to undo the decades of hatred leading to terrorism that has been spewed from large parts, in my judgment, of Saudi society and of Wahhabism? Mr. Cordesman. First, Senator, to just correct the record, Saudi Arabia officials from King Fahd's time on were very clear about not supporting violence against Israel and supporting a peace plan-- Senator Schumer. Weren't there leaders in the Saudi government that did support it, interior ministers and others-- Mr. Cordesman. I think-- Senator Schumer [continuing]. Appointed by King Fahd? Mr. Cordesman. There was certainly Prince Naif who criticized Israel. He did not support, to my knowledge, any attacks on Jews or men and women or terrorism. And indeed, in the case which Mr. Emerson quoted, he went on from attacking Zionist causes to promptly attack the Muslim Brotherhood. So it is probably useful to keep things in context. But to go to your specific question-- Senator Schumer. But Wahhabism attacks many branches of Muslim, too. Mr. Cordesman. It is an extraordinarily puritanical belief, and having encountered a few puritanical Jews and Christians, I don't like the level of inherent discrimination on any of them. But you asked about specific measures, and in my written testimony, I point out there has been a really significant advertising campaign. It has been mixed with efforts to have television shows and to deal with the overall educational reforms. This is a matter of public record. You can just look at the part of the campaign that took place very openly in Saudi Arabia. It started in February of this year. So that is something that the Committee can easily confirm. The efforts to actually reeducate or discipline imams, which are not going to be something which you see advertised in every Saudi newspaper, have been real. The efforts which began after 9/11 by the Ministry of Education, and particularly with Prince Salman's leadership, but which have now taken on a considerable momentum, have begun to change the textbooks. Do I like the rate at which this progress has occurred? No, I don't. Do I believe that this progress is occurring in many of the countries which have similar kinds of anger and hatred at the level I would like to see? No, I don't. But is there progress? Yes, and I have given you three tangible cases. Senator Schumer. Without specifics. I mean, I guess they are in your testimony. I did not read it. Do you have specifics-- Mr. Cordesman. I have given you-- Senator Schumer [continuing]. Because you asked for specifics. You wanted specifics in reference to Senator Kyl's question. Give me the most specific positive thing. What do these advertising campaigns say? Do they say it was a mistake that many people advocated killing of Jews? Mr. Cordesman. The problem you have, Senator, is you began with the thesis that many people are going around advocating the killing of Jews. I have been in Saudi Arabia on many occasions. I haven't heard that. And I have been there with colleagues of mine that are Jewish. Senator Schumer. In Israel? In Israel? You haven't heard that in Saudi Arabia? Mr. Cordesman. I have heard people attack me in Saudi Arabia for being Jewish and for being a supporter of Israel. I have heard them use rhetoric which was about as personally vicious as you can get. Did they represent any significant number of the Saudis that I deal with and have dealt with over the years? No. Senator Schumer. Could I ask Mr. Emerson to respond-- Chairman Specter. You are only two-and-a-half minutes over time, so the answer is yes. [Laughter.] Senator Schumer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You are always fair. Mr. Emerson. Thank you. I think the bottom line here is that, one, the institutional leadership of the regime, the family, the NGO's that were set up, the Saudi industrials who operate at the sufferance of the regime itself--this is not a totally capital, free market country--have all been involved in promoting a severe puritanical version of Islam, but which has called Jews and Christians infidels for years. The question is--I am amazed that this would be compared to the current situation with Judaism and Christianity because the bottom line is we in the West have largely excised much of our religious fundamentalism. Yes, there are fundamentalists in every religion and there are terrorists in every religion, but the radical Islamic theology as promoted by Saudi Arabia is the centerpiece and has been. Now, the question is, have they changed, and the mark for that is the metrics. The other mark is whether they will own up, as you appropriately asked, whether they will own up to the fact that they did promote this, and I can give you several examples that, unfortunately, show an effort to basically lie, fabricate stuff. This year, in April, NBC obtained a tape of a prominent Saudi sheikh, the Chief Justice of Saudi Arabia's Supreme Judicial Council, exhorting young Muslims to go to Iraq to participate in the jihad against American forces. NBC asked Saudi officials here in the United States for their reaction. Do you know what their response was? The tape was fabricated, that this was digitally created, enhanced. They warned them that this was a total made-up tape. So NBC contacted the sheikh directly in Saudi Arabia, who admitted on the phone that he actually made the tape himself. So the reality is, you can see this over and over again where the Saudi officials deny any support for extremism, any anti-Semitism, anti-Christian dogma. This year, there have been dozens of Christians arrested, dozens of them arrested for practicing Christianity. If you asked the Saudi government, are you persecuting Christians, they say, no, there is total freedom. These are lies. And the fact is, unless we are willing to call them on the carpet, then we can pretend that there is no disagreement. We will all get along. I call it the ``kumbaya'' culture. Everyone will have a nice day and we will go along with our business, but then business will continue as usual. That is the problem. Senator Schumer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Specter. Thank you, Senator Schumer. Senator Brownback? Senator Brownback. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate my colleague, Senator Schumer. I worked with him on this issue of Saudi Arabia for some period of time and he has been a very effective advocate and good advocate. I have got a pointed question. I wondered how the Saudis recently reacted officially when the Iranian President called for the State of Israel to be wiped off the face of the Earth, or of the map. What was the official Saudi response? Did they condemn this statement by the President of Iran? Mr. Cordesman. I don't believe they condemned it directly. I believe what they did was to call for a peace settlement between the Arabs and Israel. I don't think you are going to see direct confrontation in the Gulf region, Senator, if people can avoid it. It was a problem in terms of their contact with the Iranians. Senator Brownback. Didn't the Egyptians, though? Didn't the Egyptians condemn that statement? Mr. Cordesman. They are safely, shall we say, distant. Senator Brownback. I doubt the Egyptians would agree with that assessment. It seems like this is a tangible one that you could have--this is a pretty easy call, pretty direct call. You could have said, well, this is an inappropriate statement for any leader, to call for another country to be wiped off the map. No official statement out of the Saudis? Mr. Cordesman. Frankly, Senator, I don't know what their official statements have been on this. I do know that they reacted, and it was not in a positive way. But I think you have to understand just how tense things in the Gulf are right now. This is a matter of countries having to deal with an extraordinarily unstable neighbor, undergoing major political change, where at this point in time, they don't even know what nature of regime they are dealing with. Senator Brownback. Ms. Shea? Ms. Shea. Senator, in our publications and textbooks, we have seen that kind of sentiment expressed over and over again. In, for example, a fourth grade Saudi state textbook, and again, this is not a cleric or a sect somewhere, this is the government, its own publications, they talk about Israel as being a thorn in the back of the Muslim nations and a window through which colonialism can sneak up among the ranks of the Muslims to work on dividing them and light the fire of hatred between them. The Muslims will not rest until they cutoff this disease and purify the land of Palestine from the plague of Zionism and its rightful owners reclaim it, and so on and so on. Senator Brownback. That is a fourth grade text? Ms. Shea. That is a fourth grade textbook that we found in New Jersey from Saudi Arabia, and we have a number of other examples, as well, so it is the same kind of sentiment. These are still in circulation. The government claims-- Senator Brownback. Ms. Shea, do you know if those statements have been repudiated by the Saudi government at any point in time in recent history? Ms. Shea. I don't know that. Senator Brownback. So, actually, it would be a consistent statement of what the President of Iran stated for what has been in the textbooks sponsored by the Saudi government? Ms. Shea. That is correct. They say that they are going to, or that they already have changed the textbooks. I met with the textbook reeducation reformers in Saudi Arabia--they came here last year, last December--and they said that, actually, reform wasn't even necessary. It was all a misunderstanding. After our report came out, our study, the government--the crown prince at that time appointed a new Minister of Education. The only problem is, he appointed Mr. Obeid, who had been the Secretary General of the Muslim World League, which the Treasury Department says is an agency of grave concern for its links to extremism. The Gulf Institute, which is an NGO based here in Washington, started by Saudi dissidents, have the new curriculum that is being used inside Saudi Arabia for 2005-06, K through 12, and they say it is really just as bad. They are going to be coming out with a new report soon, as soon as they get it all translated. Senator Brownback. I will stay within my time. It seems to me, basically, your best appraisal of a group or entity or even an individual is fruit, what it produces, what comes out of that. It seems like we have seen a lot of bad fruit here, and then when you get this particular type of statement that was made by the President of Iran, that I think most of the world gasped when he said something like this, and then you look at a regime that doesn't repudiate it, and not only that, apparently its textbooks actually teaches it to its children, this is not a good fruit situation. I appreciate, Mr. Cordesman, what you are representing. I have worked with the Saudis over the years. I have chaired that Subcommittee in the Foreign Relations Committee. I have traveled the region. I have also traveled and seen their product in the region, in that region and particularly in Central Asia, was an area I noted the most. It was an area of change and foment. I traveled it in the mid- and late-1990's. There were two countries that were funding the most disruptive type of behavior in the Stands region and they were Iran and Saudi Arabia. Virtually everyplace you would go, there would be some funded group by the Saudis or the Iranians that were pushing very troubling, difficult messages in a region that was fomenting. It just seems like what we have taken place lately is some movement away from that, or maybe some movement toward more subtlety, but I haven't detected yet that the central message has changed at all. It may be more subtle, but it hasn't changed the message. Mr. Chairman, thank you. Chairman Specter. Thank you, Senator Brownback. I am going to ask unanimous consent to make a part of the record an article written by Mr. Daniel Pipes and published in the New York Sun on March 29 of this year which contains a number of statements which bear on what we are looking at, and we are going to verify the accuracy of them. It is represented that the Council on American-Islamic Relations published--the Freedom House published information on the Council on American-Islamic Relations which contained repeated references to anti-Semitism and neo-Nazi philosophy and that the head of the Canadian Islamic Congress, Mohamed Elmasry, publicly endorsed the murder of all Israelis over the age of 18, and that in New York City, an investigation by the New York Daily News in 2003 found that books used in the city's Muslim schools were, quote, ``rife with inaccuracies and sweeping condemnations of Jews and Christians, and triumphant declarations of Islam's supremacy,'' and that in Los Angeles, the Omar Ibn Khattab Foundation donated 300 Korans entitled The Meaning of the Holy Koran to the city school districts in 2001 that had to be pulled from the libraries because of anti- Semitic condemnations. We have had the representations by Mr. Al-Jubeir that the textbooks have been modified and it is a question which we are going to continue to pursue, Professor Cordesman, to see what the current status is. The legislation on the Saudi Accountability Act calls for Saudi Arabia to vastly improve cooperation with the United States in the investigation of terrorist networks and closing all organizations which fund, train, and incite terror; block all funding from private Saudi citizens and entities to Saudi- based offshore terrorist organizations; and to deal with the issue of the propaganda in the school books. So we are going to be pursuing that subject. Mr. Emerson, I am advised that you have some information as to what King Abdullah had to say about those who were behind the 2003 attacks on Riyadh in Saudi Arabia? Mr. Emerson. Yes, Senator. I will refer to it in a second here. I just wanted parenthetically to make a comment to let you know that sitting behind me is a very prominent and courageous Muslim religious leader, Sheikh Ahmed Subhy Mansour, who has prepared testimony that I would like to ask to be submitted for the record, and who has been a graduate of Al Azhar University. He is now living in the United States, having been granted political asylum here. But he is very familiar with and an expert on Wahhabist ideological views as well as the consistency of the Saudi government in continuing to promote it in publications and online. I urge him to be used as a resource by this Committee. Chairman Specter. We would be pleased to receive that testimony and it will be made a part of our record. Mr. Emerson. In response, in 2004, after there was an attack in the city of Yanbu, Crown Prince Abdullah asserted that, quote, ``Zionist elements,'' quote, ``it has become clear now that Zionism is behind the terrorism actions in the Kingdom. I can say that I am 95 percent sure of that.'' And then followed up by that was Saudi Foreign Minister Saud Al- Faisal, who said that the al Qaeda attacks were financed by Israel. That was followed up on a CNN interview when Adel Al-Jubeir was interviewed by CNN anchor Wolf Blitzer, who asked him about the allegations that there was a secret Zionist plot behind supporting al Qaeda attacks against the regime. I have included the entire transcript of the exchange between the CNN anchor as well as Mr. Al-Jubeir because it is exceptionally instructive, because Al-Jubeir consistently tries to equate Israel with al Qaeda. He is given an opportunity finally at the very end to recant and disavow those comments and never once takes the opportunity to do so. Chairman Specter. Professor Cordesman, would you care to comment on that? Mr. Cordesman. All I can say, Senator, is that in working with people in Saudi Arabia, in the Ministry of Defense, in the Ministry of Interior, in the Foreign Ministry, I never once had anybody suggest for a moment that there was any Zionist support for al Qaeda. I never heard that talking to Prince Turki in conversations that go back 7 years. I never heard it in talking to the Assistant Minister of Defense in Saudi Arabia or to the son of the Minister of the Interior. They have focused on what I think they recognize as not only an internal problem, but as one which surrounds them in the region. Whatever has been said here is not something that has been raised with me nor is it typical of any of the people that I have been dealing with who are involved in counterterrorism operations in the Kingdom. Chairman Specter. Professor Cordesman, I can easily understand why it wouldn't be raised with you. On the conversations that I have had with the Saudi officials, when I talked to King Abdullah about Khobar Towers, no bellicose or inflammatory statements were made. In talking to the Saudi Ambassador to the United States recently, he called me and wanted to be available to answer any questions, and we do have a substantial number of questions for him, no statements like that are made. But when you have the repetition of comments by ranking Saudi officials, including King Abdullah, about the Zionists being behind al Qaeda, it is antagonistic, inciting propaganda at the highest levels. It can't be denied. Mr. Cordesman. Senator, may I make a brief response? Chairman Specter. Sure. Mr. Cordesman. I think what bothers me a little about this is that this is the same King Abdullah which, as Crown Prince, took with considerable courage the initiative creating a new peace initiative, and not simply cosmetically, but pushed it through the Arab League. It is the same Saudi Arabia which has put together what will be a conference in December of this year in Mecca of the OIC, a summit meeting which will be trying to deal with these issues of extremism and terrorism. I can't say that there are not within Saudi Arabia many things that I don't like. That is something that I have lived with in all my visits to the Kingdom. But I do see, perhaps, a lack of balance that, is not necessarily going to help us in persuading the Saudis to change. Chairman Specter. Well, Professor Cordesman, shouldn't we, while trying to maintain a positive relationship with Saudi Arabia, identify to them in a very direct way the things you characterize you do not like? Shouldn't we confront the King with the statement which I think is on the record and not denied about his being 95 percent sure that Zionists were behind the al Qaeda attacks? Should we ignore those matters, or should we deal with them in a very direct way? Mr. Cordesman. I don't think we should ignore them at all, Senator. I have great reservations about legislation. I have no reservations about the Congress putting constant pressure on the administration and the Saudis to respond. My fear with legislation is that often what happens is that it is seen as counterproductive inside the Kingdom, where the threat of legislation is not. I think you have tools that you also could use. One of them is to expand the role of the Human Rights Report and require that it deals with reporting in these areas. It is to expand the State Department Report on Terrorism. The advantage of these kinds of forums is they cover all countries, and I do not believe that Saudi Arabia should be exempted from any of this kind of review. Second, I think that there is a very real reason to have much stronger embassy teams and to have the Congress put much more pressure to get people into embassies like Saudi Arabia who actually work in the field to deal with the countries involved, and I could give you a list of others measures, as I have in the testimony. So in no sense am I saying that you should not put pressure here. I think it is vital here and it is vital in all of the countries where terrorism and extremism are a problem. Chairman Specter. I am pleased to hear you say that it is an appropriate area for Congress to apply pressure and that you think the introduction of the legislation is appropriate pressure. You just stop a little short of enacting the legislation. When the Syrian Accountability Act was started, it was a pressure point, but as evidence mounted as to what Syria was doing and the evidence has continued to mount, that legislation was finally enacted, and the administration took the position you do. Don't legislate. Don't tie the hands of the administration. But finally, at the very end, the Bush administration agreed with the Syrian Accountability Act. These are not easy matters. There is great concern that if Bashir Asad falls, that there will be a replacement causing more problems for the United States. I think we have to continue to work with the Syrian government, notwithstanding all of the problems that they have presented, especially on being transit ports for insurgents going into Iraq. But while we continue to work with them, let us not be bashful about confronting them. I don't think we are too far apart on that point. We are going to have very substantial additional questions for the Saudi government. I will take up the Saudi Foreign Minister on his invitation to respond to questions. We will have more questions for him than we had for the entire panel. Ms. Shea, did you have something more you wanted to say? You were looking for some responses to my question earlier. If you want to add something, we would be pleased to hear it now. Ms. Shea. OK. We have one of the books. The anti-Semitic passage in one of the books we found here issued by the Saudi government, Ministry of Education, Riyadh: ``The Jews lured women to go to work in the factories. When the number of working women increased, they lured them into wearing makeup and revealing clothes to corrupt their morals and to corrupt young men with them.'' So that is the tenor of this stuff. It is not against the policies of Israel. It is not on a political level. It is just truly anti-Semitic and awful. Mr. Chairman, also, I would like to point out that the GAO issued a very important study at the request of some of the members of the Senate, and they released it in September. In it, they found as of July 2005, agency officials, meaning across interagency officials, whether it is State or Treasury, did not know if the government of Saudi Arabia had taken steps to ensure that Saudi-funded curricula or religious activities in other countries do not propagate extremism. I think that is a very important point, and I share Mr. Cordesman's view that this should be reported on in the religion reports and the human rights reports and the U.S. Government should press Saudi Arabia for an accounting. I think that you should include it in your Act, as well. Thank you. Chairman Specter. Mr. Bakali, would you care to add anything at this point? Mr. Bakali. No, Senator. We just wanted to differentiate the fact that the indoctrination by Saudi would be one thing. We are not here to comment on it. But the fact that the assumption and extrapolation offered or implying that that could be invaded or filled, that is the point we were trying to make, that the indoctrination by Saudi of these few books or whatever is not necessarily a true picture of the American Muslim, to which you have alluded already. Chairman Specter. We want to be emphatic that there is no condemnation or criticism of the Muslim community in the United States. We welcome your participation in our country, as we welcome men and women of all faiths or those who choose to abstain. Thank you all very much for coming. This is, I think, a constructive hearing and one which will be ongoing and one which we will pursue. That concludes our hearing. 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