<DOC>
[109 Senate Hearings]
[From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access]
[DOCID: f:24704.wais]
S. Hrg. 109-135, Pt. 3
TRIBAL LOBBYING MATTERS
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON INDIAN AFFAIRS
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED NINTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
ON
OVERSIGHT HEARING REGARDING TRIBAL LOBBYING MATTERS, ET AL
__________
NOVEMBER 17, 2005
WASHINGTON, DC
__________
PART 3
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
24-704 WASHINGTON : 2005
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COMMITTEE ON INDIAN AFFAIRS
JOHN McCAIN, Arizona, Chairman
BYRON L. DORGAN, North Dakota, Vice Chairman
PETE V. DOMENICI, New Mexico DANIEL K. INOUYE, Hawaii
CRAIG THOMAS, Wyoming KENT CONRAD, North Dakota
GORDON SMITH, Oregon DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii
LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska TIM JOHNSON, South Dakota
MICHAEL D. CRAPO, Idaho MARIA CANTWELL, Washington
RICHARD BURR, North Carolina
TOM COBURN, M.D., Oklahoma
Jeanne Bumpus, Majority Staff Director
Sara G. Garland, Minority Staff Director
(ii)
C O N T E N T S
----------
Page
Statements:
Dorgan, Hon. Byron L., U.S. Senator from North Dakota, vice
chairman, Committee on Indian Affairs...................... 2
Federici, Italia, president, Council of Republican for
Environmental Advocacy..................................... 4
McCain, Hon. John, U.S. Senator from Arizona, chairman,
Committee on Indian Affairs................................ 1
Additional material submitted for the record:
Additional e-mails........................................... 51
TRIBAL LOBBYING MATTERS
----------
THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 17, 2005
U.S. Senate,
Committee on Indian Affairs,
Washington, DC.
The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a.m. in room
216, Senate Hart Building, Hon. John McCain (chairman of the
committee) presiding.
Present: Senators McCain, Dorgan, and Inouye.
STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN McCAIN, U.S. SENATOR FROM ARIZONA,
CHAIRMAN, COMMITTEE ON INDIAN AFFAIRS
The Chairman. Good morning.
As part of its investigation on Indian lobbying misconduct,
the committee has tried to follow the money, in particular
money that Jack Abramoff had his tribal clients pay various
entities. Among the entities that Mr. Abramoff had his clients
pay was a sizable sum to was an organization called the Council
of Republicans for Environmental Advocacy, commonly known as
the CREA.
We have with us here today Italia Federici, the president
of the CREA. Evidence in the committee's possession shows that
Mr. Abramoff directed at least four of his tribal clients to
contribute no less than $250,000 to the CREA from 2001 through
2003. In total, Mr. Abramoff may have had his clients
contribute as much as $400,000 to the CREA. The question is
why. Documents suggest that Mr. Abramoff was having his tribal
clients pay so much because he perceived that Ms. Federici
would help him get inside information about and possibly
influence tribal issues pending at Interior.
In connection with the contribution of the CREA from at
least one of his tribal clients, Mr. Abramoff described the
CREA as ``the Secretary's main group outside of the
department,'' and according to internal business communications
between Mr. Abramoff and his associates, Mr. Abramoff believed
that Ms. Federici had ``juice'' at Interior and deemed her
``critical'' to his tribal lobbying practice.
As I stated at the last hearing, there is no evidence that
Secretary Norton knew, much less sanctioned, Mr. Abramoff or
anyone else using her name in seeking fees and donations from
Native Americans. What we do know is that Mr. Abramoff directed
his clients to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to the
CREA, clients upon whom he relied for millions of dollars in
Federal lobbying revenue to Greenberg Traurig for his secret
``gimme five'' partnership income through Michael Scanlon for
contributions to run his Jewish boys school in Maryland, and
for personal income to float his restaurants.
Why did Mr. Abramoff direct his valued clients to
contribute so much to the CREA, unless it somehow served his
purpose? What role did the CREA or Ms. Federici have in
facilitating contacts between Mr. Abramoff and Interior
officials about pending tribal issues? Did Ms. Federici in fact
have ``juice'' at Interior, or did she only say that to have
Mr. Abramoff's clients induced into donating hundreds of
thousands of dollars to her organization, CREA?
As we sit here today, we do not know the answers to these
questions. I hope Ms. Federici's testimony today, coupled with
the testimony we received at the last hearing and the documents
the committee has released, will begin to illuminate this
important part of the puzzle. I ask for unanimous consent that
all documents and information that the vice chairman and I have
agreed should be made a part of today's hearing be made.
Senator Dorgan. Without objection.
STATEMENT OF HON. BYRON L. DORGAN, U.S. SENATOR FROM NORTH
DAKOTA, VICE CHAIRMAN, COMMITTEE ON INDIAN AFFAIRS
Senator Dorgan. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much.
This will be the last hearing of this committee on this
subject during this calendar year at least, and I wanted to
make a couple of comments about not only this hearing, but
future activities dealing with these investigations.
First of all, this inquiry would not exist without, Mr.
Chairman, your determination to find out what has happened here
and whether Indian tribes have been defrauded, who has been
involved. And you have launched this investigation. We on the
minority side have worked closely with you, and I admire very
much the tenacity with which you have been willing to have this
committee to investigate. I think it is very important.
We have uncovered almost unbelievable things here, and we
have uncovered activities that are pretty disgusting, some
perhaps criminal, and many unethical. I think that from these
hearings will come a series of ideas for changes and reform and
so on. But I did want to say that this would not have happened
without your launching this investigation.
We have had a number of hearings that have investigated in
a stovepipe fashion. How, tribe by tribe, money was moved
through Mr. Abramoff and Mr. Scanlon and through other groups
as well. It was an appropriate way to proceed. There is one
additional tribe that we have not considered, Pueblo Sandia
Tribe. I believe we should consider them and I have made such a
recommendation.
I believe $2.7 million was provided in two checks by the
Pueblo Sandia Tribe to Mr. Scanlon's company, capital campaign.
It is my hope that as we proceed that we will take a look at
what the purpose of that money was, where that money went, and
so on. That is very important because that is another part of
this. In fact, the Pueblo Sandia was a tribe that was
originally discussed as the committee began its investigation.
Second, Mr. Chairman, we do not at this point have a
schedule for a future hearing. It is my hope that we will have
a future hearing on this investigation. I believe there are
some witnesses, which I have visited with you about, who have
not yet been interviewed by our investigators. I should not say
``witnesses.'' There are a list of people who have not been
interviewed by our investigators who I believe should be
interviewed by our investigators. From those interviews, I
believe we should make a decision on a future hearing.
The question of a future hearing would depend on what we
learn from witnesses, but there are those, or I should say
``persons'' once again, there are those whose names show up in
many, many places in all four of these tribes that we have so
far looked at and I believe there are a group of people that
really need to be interviewed by our investigators and I have
made such a recommendation.
Following that, I think we should decide from what we learn
in those future interviews by our investigators, the nature of
or the determination of whether we should have a future
hearing. It is my belief that we will need another hearing with
additional witnesses.
Finally, Mr. Chairman, we have received, as you know, the
letter from the Finance Committee asking for all of the
information that we have gleaned on 501(c)(3) and (c)(4)
organizations through which we have learned substantial money
has moved, in most cases it appears for the purpose of
obscuring the identity of such money. A substantial amount of
money has moved through a number of organizations that are so-
called non-profits, (c)(3)s and (c)(4)s. The request from the
Finance Committee to further investigate requests us to provide
all relevant information that we have gleaned through subpoenas
on the potential use and misuse of these 501(c)(3) and (c)(4)
organizations.
We are in the process with our staffs of putting this
information together and to transmit that at some future point
to the Finance Committee. We will need to make a decision on
the disclosure of that information. As I have indicated to you,
my hope is that we will put it on a website and disclose it to
the public, as we disclose it to the Senate Finance Committee,
while we meet their request.
One significant part of this investigation, Mr. Chairman,
that has caused me some real concern is the misuse of tax-
exempt organizations, non-profit organizations. We will talk a
little about that today, in fact, with the organization that is
going to be discussed through the witness, Italia Federici. I
really believe that there seems to be, at least it is apparent
to me, that there seems to be substantial misuse of these
organizations.
It is appropriate that the Finance Committee has asked for
all of that information with which to continue an
investigation. My hope is that as we transmit that information,
that we will be able to make that public.
Having said all of that, Mr. Chairman, this hearing occurs
because we were not able to serve a subpoena on Ms. Federici
prior to the previous hearing. We had a witness list for the
previous hearing and Ms. Federici was on the witness list. My
understanding is that those who were trying to serve a subpoena
on this witness were unable to do so.
So you indicated at that hearing we would have a separate
hearing. She would be the sole witness, and that is the
occasion that brings us together today. I am guessing that
neither of us would prefer to be here. We would have preferred
that she had accepted the subpoena and come to the previous
hearing, but that was not the case so today we will ask
questions and inquire about the specifics of something called
CREA, the tribal money that flowed through CREA, the issue of
whether there was influence-peddling or the circumstances of
relationships with people in the Department of the Interior,
and try to evaluate what this means.
Mr. Chairman, thank you very much.
The Chairman. Thank you very much, Senator Dorgan. It has
been a great privilege for me to serve on this committee for a
long time, and with you. The reason why we have the title of
chairman and vice chairman is because of our commitment that we
have always adhered to of conducting our business here in a
nonpartisan fashion. I appreciate all of the very cooperative
work that we have enjoyed together.
On the issue of the Pueblo Sandia, I agree with you. I will
ask our investigators to look into it. Our staffs will be
working together in preparation of a report. I think it is
important to make clear that if there are other allegations of
mistreatment of Native Americans, it is our obligation to
continue to conduct our oversight responsibilities. So I
continue to appreciate the way that we have worked together for
many years and I believe that one of the reasons why these
hearings have been as productive as they have is because of the
partnership that we have maintained.
Ms. Federici, I don't very often ask for a witness to be
sworn in, but given your published statements about this
committee and the things that you have said and done, I am
going to ask you to stand and raise your right hand.
[Witness sworn.]
The Chairman. Thank you very much.
Ms. Federici. Senator, I would like to just correct your
statement. I have never made any untoward public statements
about this committee.
The Chairman. Excuse me, in your deposition, statements
that you made about me personally, and I will be glad to quote
from your deposition if you would like.
Ms. Federici. You may do that.
The Chairman. Now, if you would like to make an opening
statement, please go ahead.
STATEMENT OF ITALIA FEDERICI, PRESIDENT, COUNCIL OF REPUBLICANS
FOR ENVIRONMENTAL ADVOCACY
Ms. Federici. Okay. Well, I had not prepared an opening
statement. I came here to answer the committee's questions. My
organization, the Council of Republicans for Environmental
Advocacy, has existed since 1997, long before we ever met Jack
Abramoff.
And I have read with great interest about some of the
accusations of moving money or money laundering that have been
made in the press regarding 501(c)(3)s and 501(c)(4)s. Through
our multiple document productions to Mr. Carrillo and to the
committee, through my voluntary deposition, which by the way
was open-ended. My attorney will tell you I was willing to come
as many days and be deposed by the committee as need be. The
committee determined that I had been fully forthcoming after 3
hours.
I also volunteered, as my letter of October 26 notes, to
attend a hearing on October 26. During all of that voluntary
and cooperative interaction with the committee, I have
repeatedly attested that no money moved through the Council of
Republicans for Environmental Advocacy, nor was one penny, to
the best of my recollection and I have worked to refresh my
recollection, spent from our account on an Indian tribal
matter.
We were very grateful for the generous support of the
Native American community and I continue to be grateful for
their generous support, but I am absolutely steadfast in my
assertion that we raised money from a legal group of
individuals. We spent it on our environmental mission, and we
never said or did one untoward thing to any Native Americans.
So it is disheartening to me to sit here and to have my
good name and the name of my organization painted with the same
broad brush that Jack Abramoff and Michael Scanlon and other
folks involved with this matter have been painted.
So, and I have my letter here. I did not have a subpoena on
October 26, Vice Chairman Dorgan. This letter was actually sent
to Senator McCain's staff. So I do not know if you have a copy
of this letter, but I would just like to read it into the
record. I would just like the record to reflect that I did not
have a subpoena when this letter was written and that the
committee subpoenaed me after I had left for my trip and after
this letter had been received.
October 26, 2005. Dear Mr. Carrillo, As you are aware, I
responded 2 weeks ago that I would accept the committee's
invitation to participate in a hearing scheduled for October
26, 2005. I also voluntarily made myself available to answer
the committee's questions via a deposition on October 7, 2005.
Both of these events caused me to clear my schedule and to
alter previously planned trips.
The committee's last minute rescheduling of the October 26
hearing to November 2, 2005 makes my participation impossible.
November 2 is the anniversary of my father's death and I will
be out of town.
I thank the committee for its understanding. Should you or
the committee have additional questions, please contact Mr.
Scheininger and he will be happy to assist. Respectfully,
Italia Federici.
And thank you. I am happy to answer the committee's
questions today.
The Chairman. Thank you very much.
I do not want to get sidetracked on this issue of the
subpoena, Ms. Federici, but we have a very different version of
events. Our staff called your lawyer and asked him whether Ms.
Federici would be out of town because it was the anniversary of
your father's death. He said he could not make that
representation. He had no more information than what was
contained in the letter that you just wrote.
Our staff asked your lawyer to provide any additional
information that we needed to have, and that this be done in
time for the hearing. We asked your lawyer to indicate whether
he was authorized to accept service of a subpoena by the close
of business, and he failed to do either. In fact, up until last
week, the committee heard nothing from you or your lawyer.
On October 28, the committee obtained the assistance of the
U.S. Marshals, which had been looking for you. I understand
that your colleague at CREA, Jared Carpenter was notably
unhelpful to the marshals.
On November 1, I informed your lawyer that if for whatever
reasons you did not appear at the November 2 hearing, the
committee would reconvene at its nearest convenience and
conduct a hearing for you. We still did not get any response.
You did not appear at the hearing. The vice chairman and I
agreed to conduct another hearing.
It goes on. The fact is, you failed when asked to provide
the committee with information necessary for the committee to
determine whether the explanation you cited for not appearing
last time was in fact reasonable. But you are here, and more
importantly, you can, I understand your statement, and
unfortunately I do not think it bears much relation with
reality.
Let's stick to the facts, the facts which explain which why
we are here today. The committee has information that over a 3-
year period, Mr. Abramoff had some of his tribal clients donate
hundreds of thousands of dollars to your organization. During
the same period, you repeatedly, and we have documents to
authenticate this, you repeatedly told Mr. Abramoff when asked
that you would pass along information to and get inside
information from the Department of the Interior about issues
important to his clients.
Mr. Abramoff, and I will cite you e-mails, believed you had
``juice'' at the Department of the Interior and he told
colleagues that you were critical to his lobbying practice. In
some instances, you did pass along information between Mr.
Abramoff and then-Deputy Secretary Griles, but you told
committee investigators that more often you did not.
The question we will explore is did you exchange your
access to Interior, mainly your relationship with Mr. Griles,
for contributions to the CREA? If so, why? And did Mr. Griles
know that? Did you tell Mr. Abramoff that you ended up not
doing a lot of what you said you would? If not, why not? And if
so, what did he tell his clients to induce them into donating
so much to the CREA? Were their contributions a product of
deception?
And that is why we are here today. So, Ms. Federici, in
front of you is a file of documents that I would like you to
look at and refer to so you can respond to questions.
Please refer to exhibit 49. Exhibit No. 49, as you are
looking it up, is an e-mail from Mr. Abramoff to you dated
September 4, 2002. It is entitled ``Tigua Water Issue.'' Here,
Mr. Abramoff provides you with a summary on a policy issue
related to the Tigua Tribe, one of Mr. Abramoff's clients who
contributed at least $50,000 to the CREA. In this e-mail, Mr.
Abramoff says to you, ``this sums it up. Thanks for all that
you do for my clients, the cause and me personally.'' What did
you do for Mr. Abramoff's clients, Ms. Federici?
Exhibit follows:
<GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT>
Ms. Federici. Well, I think that we have a different
perception of this e-mail. I think that quite clearly here, Mr.
Abramoff separates out what I do for the cause, which is my
work with the Council of Republicans for Environmental
Advocacy, from what I do for him personally.
The Chairman. I am interested not so much for the cause. I
am interested in what you do for your clients and him
personally. What did you do for Mr. Abramoff's clients?
Ms. Federici. I believe that for Mr. Abramoff's clients,
who were donors to CREA, that we provided excellent
environmental advocacy, consistent with our mission. We invited
them to participate in all of our CREA events.
The Chairman. The e-mail refers to the Tigua water issue,
Ms. Federici, not to what you do for their clients.
Ms. Federici. Senator, I get a lot of unsolicited e-mail
and I am helpful to all of my friends. If on September 4, 2002
for some reason Jack Abramoff wanted to share with me this
issue, and I told him I would take a look at it, I don't see
how that has anything to do with fraud or with non-profit
abuse.
The Chairman. Okay, then we will get a little more
specific. According to e-mails obtained by the committee, I
would like for you to look at exhibit No. 52 please. It appears
you served as a liaison between Mr. Abramoff and then-Deputy
Secretary Steven Griles about matters affecting Mr. Abramoff's
clients. Let me review some of them. Exhibit 52, on September
24, 2002, Mr. Abramoff asked you to talk to Mr. Griles about a
``Tigua water issue.'' You responded, ``I am calling right
now.''
[Exhibit follows:]
<GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT>
Ms. Federici. Mr. Abramoff indicates to me in this e-mail,
and I did not have any independent corroboration, that Steve
told him that Steve would have someone look into that and the
Tigua were getting desperate. Now, I had no reason in 2002 to
believe that Mr. Abramoff was anything other than a truthful,
friendly, charismatic, well-liked, and well-respected
Republican activist in Washington. And he sent me an e-mail
where he made a representation to me that he had a conversation
with Mr. Griles and that the Tigua were getting desperate about
a water issue.
The Chairman. Did you call?
Ms. Federici. What kind of a person gets an e-mail where
somebody says a Native American community is desperate about a
water issue and then shoots back, you know, go pound sand. I
mean, of course----
The Chairman. Ms. Federici, I would like for you to respond
to the question. Did you call, Ms. Federici?
Ms. Federici. I do not know whether I called or not, but as
you can see----
The Chairman. Even though you say in the e-mail ``I am
calling right now.''
Ms. Federici. As I told your committee repeatedly
throughout my deposition, and I have been very strident and
consistent on this point, Steve Griles was the Chief Operating
Officer as the Deputy Secretary of the Interior. He traveled.
He gave speeches. He went to meetings. He was a very busy man.
I attempted to reach Steve many more times than I actually did.
I can't have stated that enough in my deposition.
The Chairman. You do not recall whether you called or not?
Ms. Federici. Well, apparently, if I said I was going to
call, I called. But if I did not get him, then I did not get
him. A week later, Mr. Abramoff says you never responded to me.
So again, these are e-mails that are 3 years old, but it is not
Mr. Abramoff asking me to do his bidding. And I don't indicate
whether or not I reached Steve. I am happy----
The Chairman. I think that ``his bidding,'' Ms. Federici,
was for you to talk to Mr. Griles about a Tigua water issue and
you responded that you were calling right now.
Ms. Federici. You know what, Senator, I am proud----
The Chairman. Ms. Federici, I would very much appreciate it
if you would specifically answer the questions.
Ms. Federici. ----of myself. I am proud of myself for
having been personally helpful to a friend who had desperate
clients.
The Chairman. As a witness before this committee, Ms.
Federici, I expect you to answer the questions. There is such a
thing as contempt of Congress if you do not answer the
questions. If you chose to take the fifth amendment, that is
your right. Otherwise, answer the questions. Okay? That is the
last time I am going to warn you about it.
Now, did you call him or not? Do you recall whether you
called or not?
Ms. Federici. I absolutely have no recollection.
The Chairman. That is the answer to the question. Thank
you.
Ms. Federici. If I told Jack that I was going to call, I
would have.
The Chairman. On exhibit 56, now, I want to caution you
again, Ms. Federici, I want answers to the questions. I do not
want a filibuster. Exhibit 56, an e-mail dated December 4, 2002
entitled ``Gun Lake Indian Tribe Casino.'' Mr. Abramoff
complains to you about developments relating to this tribe and
conveys to you a strategy regarding the tribe's environmental
impact report to shut down the tribe's land and trust
application. You respond, ``I will call ASAP to Steve Griles.''
Also in exhibit 57, dated December 6, 2002, entitled ``Gun
Lake, New Hope for Gun Lake Casino,'' Mr. Abramoff urges you,
``this is what we have to stop.'' You respond, ``Seeing him at
4 p.m. today.''
[Exhibits follow:]
<GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT>
Now, do you recollect whether you called Steve Griles ASAP
as indicated by your response in exhibit 56?
Ms. Federici. Senator, where I do not have any independent
recollection.
The Chairman. What about in exhibit 57, where you respond,
``seeing him at 4 p.m. today.'' Did you see him at 4 p.m. that
day?
Ms. Federici. I would have no way of knowing whether or not
I actually saw Steve or the meeting was canceled.
The Chairman. You have no recollection of a meeting you
might have had with a top official at the Department of the
Interior?
Ms. Federici. He was an 11 year friend of mine, or 10 year
friend of mine.
The Chairman. But you would not remember if you had a
meeting with him or not?
Ms. Federici. No; Steve Griles and I have been friends
since 1997.
The Chairman. The length of your friendship is not to
important to this conversation. What is important is whether
you would remember or not whether you had a meeting at 4 p.m.
on December 6, 2002 with Mr. Steve Griles.
Ms. Federici. How would I remember that?
The Chairman. Most people do remember when they have a
meeting with high-ranking officials of the Administration. That
is how you would remember it.
Ms. Federici. Well, Senator, I do not recall if I saw Steve
or did not see Steve at 4 p.m. on December 6, 2002.
The Chairman. Do you keep records of appointments that you
make?
Ms. Federici. Not consistently. I do not keep a day-timer
or anything like that.
The Chairman. Please turn to exhibit 72, dated March 6,
2003, entitled ``Saginaw Chippewa Tribe School Cost Share.''
Here, Mr. Abramoff asked you ``if you can call Steve on this.''
You respond, ``Got it.''
Ms. Federici. Senator, Where? I am sorry.
The Chairman. Exhibit 72.
Ms. Federici. Okay. Thank you.
The Chairman. Exhibit 72, March 6, 2003, entitled ``Saginaw
Chippewa Tribe, School Cost Share.'' Here, Mr. Abramoff asked
you, ``if you can call Steve on this.'' You respond, ``Got
it.'' Do you recall communicating with Mr. Griles in response
to the March 6, 2003 e-mail?
[Exhibit follows:]
<GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT>
Ms. Federici. No; and I think that if I recall correctly my
response ``got it'' was a dismissive, I do not necessarily plan
to take any action on that; just e-mail received. If you did
not respond to Jack's e-mails, he would call and call and call
and e-mail and e-mail and e-mail until he knew that you had
received what he wanted you to receive.
The Chairman. That fact that you have been friends with Mr.
Griles, it seems to me, we are not talking about friendship; we
are talking about official communications concerning
substantive issues here. So I am puzzled why you would not
remember, for example, a 4-p.m. meeting on a certain date, not
on a social visit, but on a specific issue affecting Native
Americans.
Ms. Federici. Senator, I would not have scheduled, I think
there is a misunderstanding I would like to clarify.
The Chairman. Okay.
Ms. Federici. I believe my response to seeing him at 4 p.m.
today was that I was telling Mr. Abramoff that I had already
had a previously scheduled appointment or meeting, and
considering the timeframe in December, maybe that was around
the Department of the Interior's Christmas party. I am not
really sure. But I did not set up a special meeting to go to
the Department of the Interior to raise that issue with Mr.
Griles, and I can see why you would think that if I had done
that, I would recall it, but I had some other reason for going
to the Department of the Interior at 4 p.m. on December 6.
The Chairman. Well, I can also see why if Mr. Abramoff
received that response when he asked you to address an issue
with Mr. Griles and you say ``I am seeing him at 4 p.m.
today,'' I would naturally assume that that response would be
indicating that you would be discussing that issue with him.
Ms. Federici. I never really went into the substance of
these issues with Mr. Griles.
The Chairman. You didn't?
Ms. Federici. As I said in my deposition, to the best of my
recollection.
The Chairman. Then look at exhibit 55. Now, exhibit 55 is
an e-mail from Mr. Abramoff to you dated December 2, 2002,
entitled ``Jena Band, Logansport Asked to Speak on Proposed
Casino.'' Mr. Abramoff writes, ``It seems that the Jena are on
the march again. If you can, can you make sure Steve squelches
this again.'' You respond, ``Thanks for the update. I will
bring it up ASAP.''
[Exhibit follows:]
<GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT>
Ms. Federici. Right. And I told the committee staff during
my deposition that I did have specific recollections of
mentioning Jena and Saginaw Chippewa with Deputy Secretary
Griles, but not the substance of what those issues were.
The Chairman. That is a remarkable statement.
Exhibit 39, please look at it, an e-mail from Mr. Abramoff
to Michael Scanlon entitled, Mr. Abramoff says he ``just got a
call'' from you. You apparently provided Mr. Abramoff with
then-non-public information from Mr. Griles that, ``as of now,
Norton is going to sign the Jena deal.'' Do you know anything
about that? In other words, the implication in this e-mail is
that you received information from Mr. Griles that was not
public, that says ``as of now, Norton is going to sign the Jena
deal.''
[Exhibit follows:]
<GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT>
Ms. Federici. I do not recall having had that conversation
with Mr. Abramoff, Senator, but I do recall that, this goes to
sort of what I said about not discussing the substance of the
specific issues, but having mentioned the issue in general. The
Jena issue, as I remember it, for me was that it was much more
of a political problem that Jack was raising with me; that
Christian conservatives and other very important grassroots
constituencies and large blocs of Republican Congressmen and
Senators were very angry because they felt that they were not
being heard.
I believe what I told your staff during the deposition was
that my memo that I wrote to the Department of the Interior,
that I addressed actually to Eric Ruff, and any of the mentions
with regard to Jena would have been much more focused on, I am
hearing that Christian conservative groups are really angry and
that they are going to start running negative ads about
Secretary Norton; it is something to do with the Jena; or I am
hearing or I was shown a stack of letters signed by very large
blocs of Republicans and that are saying that the doors of BIA
have been closed to them, and they are not having access and
getting the respect that they think that they are merited; Is
anybody aware of what is happening with this Jena issue?; Is
anybody talking to these people?
That is what I meant by not discussing the substance. You
know, Senator, sitting here today I now know that the Jena
issue was about a designation for land and it had to do with
casinos. That was not my understanding of the issue 3 years
ago.
The Chairman. Who are these large blocs of Congressmen and
Senators, Ms. Federici? Can you give us the names?
Ms. Federici. Well, groups.
The Chairman. You just said that large blocs of Congressmen
and Senators.
Ms. Federici. Right.
The Chairman. Who were they?
Ms. Federici. Well, if you really want me to just start
naming names of people I saw letters signed by?
The Chairman. Sure.
Ms. Federici. Okay. Senator Grassley, Senator Stabenow. I
do not know which particular Indian issues they were, but I was
told----
The Chairman. We were specifically referring to the Jena
issue.
Ms. Federici. Okay. Well, with the Jena issue, I believe it
was the Republican Policy Committee, which is sort of like your
Gang of 14. It is a bloc of people. I understood that there
were Senators and Congressmen who were unhappy that this was
going to be taking place in their districts.
The Chairman. I am interested in knowing who those
individuals were, or some of them, if there large blocs.
Ms. Federici. Well, I cannot name all of the Senators or
all of the Congressmen who are part of the Republican Policy
Committee.
The Chairman. Can you name one of the large blocs of
Senators and Congressmen?
Ms. Federici. I did, the Republican Policy Committee. So if
you know who is involved in that.
The Chairman. I am asking if you can name one Senator or
Congressman. The Republican Policy Committee has nothing to do
with the Gang of 14. Please go ahead.
Ms. Federici. Well, Senator, you have all the letters.
The Chairman. Do you have any names? You just said there
are large blocs of Congressman and Senators.
Ms. Federici. There were.
The Chairman. Then tell me the names of them?
Ms. Federici. Well, Senator, sitting here today without
having notes in front of me, I cannot recall and I do not want
to just sort of start throwing names out. I did give you some
names of Senators and Congressmen who I said signed letters
that I saw about tribal matters and who seemed to be upset. You
did not like that response.
The Chairman. Did you ever provide documents to Mr. Griles
that you had received from Mr. Abramoff or his associates, that
is, the Jena notebook?
Ms. Federici. Pardon me?
The Chairman. Did you ever provide documents to Mr. Griles
that you had received from Mr. Abramoff or his associates?
Ms. Federici. I cannot recall having given Mr. Griles
documents. I mean, I might have shown him a newspaper article
or something like that, but I did several days after the last
hearing watch the hearing. The notebook I believe you are
referring to appeared in November 2003. By November 2003, I do
not think I communicated with Jack Abramoff for 4 months.
The Chairman. But you do not recall if you ever provided
any documents that were given to you by Mr. Abramoff or his
associates to Mr. Griles?
Ms. Federici. I recall newspaper articles, Senator. I
believe that that was somewhat covered during my deposition.
They were all newspaper articles that I was shown.
The Chairman. All you did was provide newspaper articles,
nothing more?
Ms. Federici. Not that I can recall, and I haven't had
anybody show me anything to refresh my memory otherwise.
The Chairman. Exhibit 64, Ms. Federici, an e-mail dated
January 21, 2003 entitled, ``Intel from Department of the
Interior BIA.'' Mr. Abramoff asked you if there is ``any way to
find out when and how the BIA will respond to a letter from
Governor Foster about a new Jena casino.'' You respond,
``Thanks, Jack. I will ask about the timing and content and
call you.'' Mr. Abramoff also reached out to you about the Jena
Band's casino proposal, that is in exhibit 73. That is an e-
mail dated March 9, 2003 entitled ``Jena Choctaw Update.'' You
responded, ``I will call you on Monday with whatever I can find
out.''
[Exhibits follow:]
<GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT>
Ms. Federici. Okay.
The Chairman. These e-mails are typical of many others we
have, where Mr. Abramoff asks you to contact Mr. Griles on
issues important to his clients, his clients have contribute to
the CREA. And you say, ``I am on it; I will get back ASAP; I
will bring it up ASAP.'' Did you actually do the things you
said you would or not?
Ms. Federici. Senator, if I told Jack Abramoff that I would
make a phone call, I did. But as I said before, I tried to
reach Steve many more times than I actually successfully
reached him.
The Chairman. Why wouldn't Mr. Abramoff just contact Mr.
Griles himself?
Ms. Federici. That is an excellent question.
The Chairman. Why didn't you ask him that during all these
e-mails that you were receiving from him over a period of
years, and saying, ``I am on it; I will get to it ASAP; Seeing
him at 4 p.m. today,'' et cetera. Why didn't you ask him that
question?
Ms. Federici. Because he was a friend and a donor, and when
my friends reach out to me and ask me to help them with things,
I never turn around and say, why don't you just do it yourself.
A lot of people ask us for assistance or for help all the time,
and I would never turn to a friend and say, do it yourself,
especially when you are talking about a local telephone call.
The Chairman. You didn't reach Mr. Griles or did not get
done what he had asked for. Did you ever tell him that you
didn't?
Ms. Federici. Well, it was apparent from the numerous e-
mails throughout the lifetime that I knew Jack that many things
did not get answered.
The Chairman. But Ms. Federici, there is no e-mail from you
that says ``I didn't contact him; I didn't meet with him; I
didn't get this information.''
Ms. Federici. Well, Senator----
The Chairman. Let me finish my question, Ms. Federici.
What is in all of these e-mails is, ``You've got it; Thanks
for the update; I will bring it up ASAP; I am calling right
now.'' There is never an e-mail that says, ``I did not get a
hold of him; I was unable to communicate.''
Ms. Federici. But there are e-mails from Jack to me saying,
``Why didn't you respond to my e-mail?; What is going on with
this?; How come you never got back to me?; Where are we on
this?; What is going on?''
There are e-mails coming from him that clearly indicate
that between my e-mail back, just sitting at my computer, okay,
sure, I will ask about that; thanks, Jack; send. And then a
week would pass, 2 weeks would pass, however much time,
repeatedly throughout these e-mails he writes back to me and
says, ``I didn't hear anything; what is going on?; Can you give
me an update?''
The Chairman. Why didn't you just tell him? Why is there no
e-mail that says, ``I did not contact him; I did not get an
answer; I cannot help you out.?''
Ms. Federici. I was probably busy doing some of the
Republican Environmental Advocacy work that I was working on.
The Chairman. I see, but you would respond by saying ``I am
on it'' and ``I will do it,'' but you could not respond that
you were too busy to respond by saying, ``I did not get a hold
of him.''
Ms. Federici. I might have called Jack to say, you know,
there are a lot of e-mails, and then I am going to call Jack to
say, ``Jack, I didn't reach him; I will try later.'' But there
are plenty of e-mails to me, Senator, where Jack Abramoff, one,
apologizes consistently from day one to the last day of the
communication for bothering me with tribal matters, and there
are also e-mails----
The Chairman. It's funny. We did not get those e-mails, and
we got all of their e-mails, Ms. Federici.
Ms. Federici. There are many of those e-mails.
The Chairman. Look at exhibit 81 please. Look at exhibit
81. This is April 3, 2003 between you and Mr. Abramoff entitled
``Urgent Alert, DOI Proposes Policy Changes in Compact Review
Process.'' Here, Abramoff attaches a memo on this issue, to the
e-mail, and writes, ``If this attached memo is correct, someone
over at BIA is doing some really odd things. Any way to see if
this is something coming from the top? All of our tribes are
very agitated about this one.'' In response, you write, ``I
will definitely see what I can find out. I hate to bug you, but
is there any news about a possible contribution?''
Ms. Federici. From a tribe for the Labor Environment----
The Chairman. Ms. Federici, I have not completed my
question to you.
Ms. Federici. Okay.
The Chairman. Ms. Federici, any objective observer would
see that there is a clear connection between contributions to
your organization and work that you would be doing on behalf of
Mr. Abramoff with the Department of the Interior. I will repeat
again. In response, you write, ``I will definitely see what I
can find out,'' and then you immediately go on to say, ``I hate
to bug you, but is there any news about a possible contribution
from Redacted?''
[Exhibit follows:]
<GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT>
Ms. Federici. Okay, ``Because the Labor Environment
Alliance launch is rapidly approaching and we are very, very
committed. I am worried about getting everything in place. The
Labor Environment Alliance is great and will be extremely
helpful to our guys. Thanks for all of your help.''
Every one of my funding requests to Jack was attached to
not only an environmental project, Senator, but a completed
environmental project. The Labor Environment Alliance was time-
consuming to organize. It was extremely successful. We traveled
out of State, and we did a very successful grassroots campaign.
The Chairman. This is totally non-responsive, Ms. Federici.
Is there a connection between what you say, ``I will definitely
see what I can find out; I hate to bug you, but is there any
news about a possible contribution.'' Does that appear to be
that there is a quid pro quo here?
Ms. Federici. No; The quid pro quo is I need the money for
LEA. All I did was attach, a, ``yes, Jack, I will look into
that. By the way, while I am sending you an e-mail,'' I did not
write that, I would like to attach the second thought. I mean,
it just is not a natural way for someone to write. So he sent
me an e-mail. I told him I would look into it, and then I
attached a second unrelated thought about a contribution
attached to an environmental project. An environmental project,
Senator, was expensive and it was completed.
The Chairman. Well, we have many e-mails, Ms. Federici. For
example, exhibit 66, an e-mail between you and Mr. Abramoff
entitled, ``Help.'' Here you ask Mr. Abramoff, ``I hate to
bother you with this right now; hoping to ask you about a
possible contribution to CREA.'' It started out, Mr. Abramoff
graciously responds, ``We will get that moving ASAP; I will hit
them immediately.'' But he continues, ``By the way, Governor
Foster just sent Gale another letter pushing a new compact he
signed for Jena. Can you make sure Steve knows about this and
puts the kaibosh on it? Thanks.'' Ms. Federici promises, ``I
will tell him where they are now and with whom. Thanks, Jack.''
There are numerous e-mails.
[Exhibit follows:]
<GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT>
Ms. Federici. I never asked Steve to put the kaibosh on
anything. And Senator, I cannot tell you what was in Jack's
mind. I only know what was in my mind. Jack gave me a reason
for why the Native American tribes were donating to us. We were
very pleased for their generous contributions. I repeatedly
offered to meet with them in my capacity as CREA's president.
We invited them to our events and I used their resources to
complete substantive and important environmental work.
The Chairman. Did it matter to you that Mr. Abramoff was
asking you to contact Mr. Griles on issues important to donors
to the CREA?
Ms. Federici. No; not particularly. I was responding to
Jack at the time, he was a friend, in the way I would respond
to any friend who had a need or a question.
The Chairman. Well, in the record, there is a continuous
stream of e-mails that connect contributions to you and CREA
with actions that are requested or anticipated concerning
Native Americans. There is a long stream of them, and they will
be in the record. Since your answers are so bizarre, I will not
continue. I will let others make that judgment.
Ms. Federici. Senator, am I allowed to add something
quickly?
The Chairman. Sure.
Ms. Federici. Okay. I did notice on the committee's website
there is an e-mail, and part of this is----
The Chairman. There is a stream of e-mails, Ms. Federici.
Ms. Federici. Okay, there is a stream of e-mails. I only
got like one or two in before I stopped looking. There is an e-
mail. I do not know the context of these e-mails. You are
saying that you do not have any of the e-mails from Jack where
he apologizes to me for----
The Chairman. We have all the e-mails. We just do not have
the e-mails that contain the information that you claim there
is. We have all the e-mails.
Ms. Federici. Okay. Well, here is an example, Senator. On
Thursday, March 1, 2001, there was an e-mail stream that was
put up on the internet that appears to show, as it is posted,
that I invited Jack to meet Secretary Norton at Julie Finley's
home, and then Jack said, ``wow, that would be great; thank you
so much for everything; let me know if I can help you cover the
costs.'' And it stops there. And it would create the impression
in mind of anyone who did not know the circumstances that I was
charging people to meet Secretary Norton. The missing part of
that e-mail is the part where I say, ``Thank you so much for
the offer, but Julie is the hostess with the mostess, and she
will not let anyone help with anything. She is great.'' And I
turned down the contribution.
So these e-mails, if we are going to parse them
individually, tend to take----
The Chairman. We are not parsing them, Ms. Federici. We
have a long stream of e-mails. I did not bring up that e-mail
that you are talking about because there may be some ambiguity
associated with it. The fact is, there is a long stream of e-
mails that show a direct connection between contributions, your
relationship with Mr. Griles, and action taken by the, well,
action that was taken or was attempted to be made.
Ms. Federici. I do not understand why the committee
doesn't----
The Chairman. I did not even mention that e-mail that you
wanted mentioned. It is clear, it is clear when you mention
contributions to your organization in the same e-mail on many
occasions, with action that you can have taken by the
Department of the Interior, there is a connection, Ms.
Federici. We are releasing all of these e-mails and we will let
others judge, but it is clear to me what was going on.
Senator Dorgan.
Senator Dorgan. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much.
Ms. Federici, when you came to the committee interview, you
indicated on a number of occasions you felt this proceeding was
a witch hunt. Can you tell us why you think this proceeding is
a witch hunt?
Ms. Federici. Senator, I have read in the newspaper and I
have actually been told by the press that committee staff in
particular are engaged in a smear campaign against me.
The Chairman. Who in the press told you that?
Ms. Federici. I do not believe that he would appreciate me
telling his name. It would probably preclude his ability to
work with other sources. But I have read that----
Senator Dorgan. Ms. Federici, you are under oath and the
chairman has asked you a question. You are suggesting that
somehow someone was trying to smear you, and you have
indicated----
Ms. Federici. I was told that there was a narrative of a
very personal nature that was being put forward from committee
staff. You know, it sort of fits with----
Senator Dorgan. Ms. Federici, look, that is not what you
told the committee in your deposition. You suggested this was a
witch hunt for other reasons, but now that you have apparently
created a reason separate from that, you want to air that out.
We would be happy to find all those sources if you want to do
that.
Let me just tell you my impression. I listened to your
answers to Senator McCain. Here is what it looks like. Now, I
come from a really small town, but I think I can spot a pretty
big lie from time to time. Somebody has been lying to us.
Somebody sitting at this table has been lying to us. You
probably have not had a chance to hear the previous testimony,
but we have witnesses that have come to this Committee that
clearly have been lying. The question is who.
Now, I have listened to the line of questioning proposed by
Senator McCain today. I want to tell you my impression. You
should disabuse that, if you think the evidence exists to do
it. You received some hundreds of thousands of dollars in
contributions to an environmental organization that you headed,
and those hundreds of thousands of dollars came from Indian
tribes. I assume that might have been a surprise to you. I
mean, to head a Republican environmental organization, then all
of a sudden one day to find, remarkably, you are getting a lot
of money from Indian tribes.
Ms. Federici. It did not surprise me, Senator.
Senator Dorgan. Then why don't you tell me why you were not
surprised.
Ms. Federici. Okay.
Senator Dorgan. And tell me also how much money you
received from the various Indian tribes.
Ms. Federici. I would be happy to do that.
Senator Dorgan. All right.
Ms. Federici. It did not surprise me because I have had a
very close working relationship with Chairman Ben Nighthorse
Campbell. When we founded our organization in 1997, he actually
flew out to do Politically Incorrect with Bill Maher in an
effort to help us get some publicity. He hosted a fundraiser
with us where we did outreach to many of the same groups that
are being discussed here today. And I follow the environmental
movement very closely, obviously. It is what I do.
In the year 2000, Ralph Reed ran for President of the Green
Party and he selected as his running mate a Native American
woman. I believe her name was Winona LaDuke. One of the things
that they talked about repeatedly was that her Native American
heritage gave her a wonderful respect for conservation and the
environment, and the Green Party really liked that.
I thought it was a wonderful----
Senator Dorgan. Let me just correct that, because while
Ralph Reed's name shows up in very many places, he would not
want to be associated with your remarks.
Ms. Federici. Right. I am sorry. Ralph Nader.
Senator Dorgan. We have other reasons to pose future tough
questions to Mr. Reed, but he would not want to be identified
with someone who ran for President on the Green Party.
Ms. Federici. Right. The Green Party, yes.
But Native Americans are, I think, at least in my mind, a
very generous group of individuals. In fact, I was kind of
joking, we are a week from Thanksgiving, which is the
quintessential holiday celebrating Native American generosity.
And I believe that they are also very closely tied to the
environment. So I was happy to receive money from them.
Senator Dorgan. So, I have news for you. Ben Nighthorse
Campbell is not an Indian tribe. He is a Native American. He is
former chairman of this committee, but he is not a tribe.
Ms. Federici. Okay.
Senator Dorgan. And if you are suggesting somehow that your
organization, a Republican environmental organization headed by
you, is the recipient of hundreds of thousands of dollars by
some act of generosity, that really strains credibility.
Let me tell you what it looks like from my standpoint. I am
going to go through a series of e-mails with you. It looks to
me like----
Ms. Federici. Senator, can I please just to the fullest of
my ability?
Senator Dorgan. Of course.
Ms. Federici. I did print off some materials from the
Saginaw Chippewa, from the Coushatta, and from the Choctaw
website, and one piece in particular from the Saginaw Chippewa,
a member of the Saginaw Chippewa Tribe, a member, I do not want
to misspeak again, named David Pago wrote a piece called ``Gas
Prices Hurt Indians More Than Others.'' I have worked for this
entire relevant time period that we are discussing very hard on
energy issues and issues that I feel would raise energy prices.
The Choctaw Vision website, parts of it dovetail with the
mission statement of the Labor Environment Alliance, including
the Clean Air Act portions.
Senator Dorgan. You are welcome to submit all that for the
record, Ms. Federici. I am not----
Ms. Federici. But Senator, I feel like what people are
saying, and I might be misunderstanding you and the chairman,
and please forgive me if I am, is that it should have been
blatantly obvious to me that Native Americans would not be
generous or philanthropic and would not care about the
environment; and it should have been obvious to me at the time
that they were making these generous contributions to my group
for some third purpose.
Senator Dorgan. Ms. Federici, look, let me finish what I
was going to tell you. I am going to ask you a bunch of
questions about the evidence itself.
First of all, you have this organization that you head, a
Republican environmental group, CREA, and you come into
hundreds of thousands of dollars. And then we take a look at
what your organization has been doing, a massive e-mail trail
of contacts you have with Interior, with Mr. Griles, with Mr.
Abramoff and so on. And it looks to me like you got paid for
doing things that had nothing at all to do with your
organization. That is probably for other people to investigate
with some seriousness, but I want to ask you some questions
about some of the evidence.
You are an environmental organization. You come into a lot
of money from Indian tribes. My guess is that that money had
nothing to do with generosity, or had very little to do with
energy or the environment, but had a lot to do with Mr.
Abramoff saying to his contacts in these tribes, ``I want you
to stick money into Ms. Federici's organization,'' and they
did.
We have had testimony about that. Let me just read you some
information from document 88. I'll just go through a series of
them. From Abramoff to Italia, ``Want to see if we can get a
sense as to where we are on the following: Sac and Fox, Saginaw
Chippewa school cost program; moving the Inspector General from
Choctaw, Mississippi to Coushatta election; Mashpee, Jena.
Thanks.''
[Exhibit follows:]
<GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT>
Ms. Federici. And there is no response to that e-mail, Mr.
Vice Chairman.
Senator Dorgan. Pardon me.
Ms. Federici. There was no response to that e-mail.
Senator Dorgan. That is true. I am just telling you that
our records are full of these things. It is full of references
to the duties that you were performing for Mr. Abramoff. Those
duties had to do with the term ``juice'' that also exists in
our set of records. You had ``juice.'' You got paid for that
``juice'' by having Mr. Abramoff direct funds to your
organization, and you spent a lot of time in your
correspondence back and forth with Mr. Abramoff about what you
are doing; not about the environment; not about energy; about
Jena, Mashpee, all of these issues that have to do with Mr.
Abramoff.
It looks to me like you were working for Mr. Abramoff and
you were getting money from Indian tribes to do it. That is
what it looks to me like.
Ms. Federici. But Senator, I do not know what was in Jack's
mind. I only know what I was told. And I never told or was told
by or had a conversation with any Native American or Native
American tribe where my duties to my donors were outlined as,
you know, we think you have ``juice'' with this, that or the
other thing, or where I requested funding for something other
than environmental activism.
Now, I believed at the time that the reason that Jack was
giving us money is because he was a very generous Republican
fundraiser. I mean, the amounts of money that, as I understand
it----
Senator Dorgan. Ms. Federici, that is unbelievable.
Ms. Federici. What we received from Jack were modest in
comparison to some of the fundraising that he did.
Senator Dorgan. The way you describe it in this testimony
is the Indian tribes are generous; Jack is generous; everybody
is generous. That is unbelievable to me.
Ms. Federici. That is unbelievable to me.
Senator Dorgan. You think that there are resources in this
town that provide generosity to the tune of several hundred
thousands of dollars, and then we take a look at what was done?
Let me just ask you to look at, if you would, exhibit 56, to
you from Mr. Abramoff, ``The important thing is that Steve,'' I
assume that is Mr. Griles, a friend of long- standing, ``Steve
clearly understands what a great friend he has in you. He is a
great guy and we need to make sure he is always protected.''
What do you think he needed protection from, Ms. Federici?
[Exhibit follows:]
<GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT>
Ms. Federici. Well, I think I already answered that for
your committee staff during the deposition. But I cannot
believe that in all of the e-mails that you have that there are
none of the e-mails where Jack is talking to me about how angry
certain members of Congress are and that they are calling the
White House, frankly; that people are upset with the Interior
Department because they feel that there are problems with BIA.
I believed that Jack's conversations with me were always
geared toward, hey, you know, I did not know that he was behind
the effort to do the grassroots work with Ralph Reed. All Jack
did was pick up the phone and call me and say, ``Oh, my God,
this is a disaster in the making. Ralph Reed and James Dobson
are going to run ads against Secretary Norton. You need to give
those people a heads up.'' I never knew that.
I do not know what Jack was thinking in his mind or what he
was doing. My conversations, to the extent that I would be able
to reach anyone at Interior about this, was about, you know, it
was political in nature, not related to the substance of the
lobbying.
Senator Dorgan. Ms. Federici, who is Eric Ruff?
Ms. Federici. He is the communications director at the
Department of the Interior, or he was.
Senator Dorgan. This is a memo from you to Eric Ruff,
exhibit No. 41, ``Hi, Eric. Here are two articles that were
forwarded to me today. You can see from one that Ralph Reed and
his firm are involved somehow. From what I have been told,
Ralph is working with Doolittle, don't know whether for free or
as a paid consultant, and has been bending the ear of Karl Rove
and possibly even the president about land and trust gaming
issues,'' and you go on and on and on.
[Exhibit follows:]
<GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT>
Ms. Federici. Right. But I did not know that Jack was
behind that effort. And when I found that out, I felt
tremendously manipulated. Jack presented that to me that this
was something that he was hearing second-hand, or that he was a
third party to it. He did not tell me that he was paying Ralph
Reed to do that.
Senator Dorgan. Reading from exhibit 4, ``Hi Italia,''
began Mr. Abramoff, ``I hate to bother you with something on
tribal affairs, but one of our hard core tribes is being
screwed by the BIA and we really need somehow to get the
Secretary to undo this fast. Their insurance business is just
about to go under, days away, and BIA is just not responding,
since there is no new head there. I have sent this to Steve as
well, but I thought perhaps you might be able to get this to
the Secretary directly to get action. Here is the one-pager on
it.''
The point of this is that at the drop of a hat Mr. Abramoff
would to send you a note and say, ``get this done; do this;
contact this person.'' This is the person who incidentally gave
you hundreds of thousands of dollars.
[Exhibit follows:]
<GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT>
Senator Dorgan. Would you agree that the tribes donated
this money at Mr. Abramoff's request? I am talking about
donated money.
Ms. Federici. Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
Senator Dorgan. So Mr. Abramoff got the tribes to donate
some hundreds of thousands of dollars to you. Do you agree that
Mr. Abramoff is constantly asking you to do business for him
with respect to tribal interests? Do you agree with that?
Ms. Federici. Senator, it appears constant because we are
going through it in a rapid-fire fashion, but to me, if it was
once every other week, that did not seem rapid-fire at the
time.
Senator Dorgan. Whatever ``rapid-fire'' is, do you agree
that Mr. Abramoff, after getting you the funding for your
organization, was asking you, as we have cited in the evidence,
asking you to do some Indian business with him at the
Department of the Interior because you had ``juice?'' Do you
agree with that?
Ms. Federici. No, Senator; I do not agree with the
characterization that Jack made; that I was not a party to;
that I had ``juice'' at Interior. I had friends.
Senator Dorgan. I would like to stop with the ``juice''
thing. Do you agree with this. Do you agree that Jack Abramoff
got you some hundreds of thousands of dollars and then asked
you over a period of time, many times, to get involved in
Indian issues that he was involved with with the Department of
the Interior? Is that the case?
Ms. Federici. He did make requests of me, and he did also,
Senator, continually apologize to me throughout this time
period for, bugging me with tribal issues.
Senator Dorgan. And so he got you the money. He asked you
to do some work with him with the Department of the Interior.
Did you do some work with the Department of the Interior? Did
you contact Mr. Griles? Did you do the kinds of things he was
asking?
Ms. Federici. I sent the memo to Eric Ruff, giving him a
heads up. And I told the committee staff in my deposition that
I did raise the concern that members of Congress had about both
Jena and Saginaw Chippewa with Steve, but I did not get into
the substance of those issues with the Department of the
Interior officials.
Senator Dorgan. The exhibits that I have read to you just
go on and on and on from Mr. Abramoff to you. As I have
indicated previously, you are then sending materials as well,
in this case to Mr. Ruff at the Department of the Interior.
Ms. Federici. But I think that memo was appropriate. I
mean, I think that memo was appropriate.
Senator Dorgan. My point is this. My point is you received
information to an environmental group, non-profit that you----
Ms. Federici. No; to me as a person, Senator. I did tell
your Committee staff also, I paid for this e-mail account out
of my own pocket because I use it for both personal and
business. I paid for my cell phone out of my own pocket.
The Chairman. You pay for your cell phone out of your own
pocket?
Ms. Federici. During this time period.
The Chairman. How much money did you get from Abramoff and
his clients?
Ms. Federici. We got hundreds of thousands of dollars.
The Chairman. How much, roughly?
Ms. Federici. Okay, without disclosing donors, I believe it
is about $500,000.
The Chairman. Over what period of time?
Ms. Federici. Three years.
The Chairman. Over $500,000?
Ms. Federici. Not over, not over. You guessed $400,000.
The Chairman. And that is modest, and so you were able to
pay for your own cell phone.
Ms. Federici. But Senator, I was not abusing non-profit
resources, okay? And Jack at the time, I believed, was a
friend. I did not know that he was doing the things that he was
doing. I really wish, sitting here today, I really wish that
any of the Native Americans who donated to us had just once in
this time period picked up the phone and called me and said,
you know, what are you doing with our contribution; or how is
this money being spent; so that I could have had a direct line
of access to them.
I repeatedly offered to meet with our Native American
donors. I invited them to all of our events. I was told by Jack
Abramoff that these were people who wanted him to, as their
Washington representative, help them to formulate where he was
going to give money, and that they did not want to be bothered
with me.
Senator Dorgan. Ms. Federici, you must be the luckiest
woman alive.
Ms. Federici. I thought I was.
Senator Dorgan. To be heading an organization and all of a
sudden a friend says, you know something, let me get you about
$500,000. But now we know what that was for, in my judgment.
Let me ask you a question about exhibit 56, It is from Mr.
Abramoff to you, subject Jena Band panel, ``It seems the Jena
are on the march again. If you can, can you make sure Steve
squelches this again? Thanks.''
Ms. Federici. I never asked Steve to squelch anything the
first time. So I do not know, I have listened to your staff;
Jack was close to 50, a man, and a high-dollar donor. I did not
feel comfortable correcting his vernacular. We work with people
every day who have varying levels of decorum. There are lots of
things, phrases that Jack would use that I would not be
comfortable using, but I did not feel comfortable e-mailing him
back and saying, don't use the word ``kaibosh'' with me.
I do think that he was not nearly as harsh with me as he
was, say, about me. For example, in the e-mail that your
committee staff showed me from this same time period where he
told people he was going to ``f--ing bury me.'' I mean, it is
obvious from the e-mails that you have that there was a lot
that Jack was doing that I had no idea about.
Senator Dorgan. Ms. Federici, you had an event at
Signatures restaurant. We have an e-mail trail about the
question of whether your organization was going to actually pay
for the food and so on at Signatures restaurant. Let me go
through a couple of these.
Ms. Federici. Which exhibit is that?
Senator Dorgan. Let me go through a couple of them. Exhibit
47. This is from Rodney Lane to Mr. Abramoff, ``Spoke with
Jared. I got the sense they were hoping we would` take care' of
things; it sounds to me like they are planning on doing these
luncheons twice a month; 10 or less coming for lunch tomorrow;
to avoid embarrassment, maybe we should pick up at least one-
half this tab, then our work with Jared going forward would
give him a discount on future events.'' It goes on, ``It looks
like this bill was slightly over $300 plus tip; what do you
want me to do in the future?''
A series of things in which----
[Exhibit follows:]
<GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT>
Ms. Federici. Jack was a donor. Again, I mean this goes to
my naivete, but I thought he was very generous.
Senator Dorgan. Well, that would be pretty generous; if you
are going to do a couple of meetings a month and go to a
restaurant and not be charged for it, that would be mighty
generous.
Ms. Federici. We did pay. We did pay, and we provided
documents to the Department of Justice and the FBI and other
people that showed that we wrote checks and did make payments
to Signatures for the events that we did there. And I did leave
open in my deposition with Mr. Carrillo the possibility that
there was a lunch at some point that was picked up by Jack. We
also did lunches at the Caucus Room and other places, and we
would pay for our own lunches.
The Chairman. Did Mr. Abramoff ever comp a CREA function?
Ms. Federici. I cannot recall if he did or did not right
now----
The Chairman. But you just provided documents. Were you
reimbursed? You must have examined whether there were cases
where you were comped by Abramoff.
Ms. Federici. If I didn't, the absence of a check would not
be a document. How would I know?
The Chairman. I think you would know whether you paid or
not. Any record keeping would indicate whether you paid or not.
The question is, did Abramoff ever comp an event by CREA?
Ms. Federici. I can't say, but if he comped us a lunch at
some point in time, we would have just written it down as an
in-kind contribution. That is what an in-kind contribution is.
The Chairman. Exactly. And that is the question: Did he
ever comp anything for your organization?
Ms. Federici. I was not asked to look into in-kind
contributions, that I recall.
The Chairman. You are totally non-responsive. You should
know whether you were comped or not, because it is just a
simple thing of recordkeeping. Go back into your records.
Ms. Federici. For a $300-lunch 3 years ago?
The Chairman. Please do not interrupt anymore, Ms.
Federici.
It is a simple question as to whether Mr. Abramoff ever
comped anything for your or your organization.
Ms. Federici. I do not recall.
The Chairman. Then I would like to have you go back through
your documents and provide for this committee whether he did or
not.
Senator Dorgan. Mr. Chairman.
Ms. Federici. I would be happy to do that.
Senator Dorgan. Let me just say that there is an exhibit on
this. No. 71, from Laura Lippy to Rodney Lane and then to
Abramoff from Rodney Lane. The end of it is, ``Jared called;
they want to do this reception on Thursday, March 20, for 50 to
75 people; Jared said that Italia and Jack spoke regarding this
and Jack may want to comp it; Eric can you call Jared to get
the details; Rodney will talk to Jack about the comp issue.''
And then he says, ``See what Eric comes back with, but it
sounds expensive. Do we owe them something?'' Mr. Abramoff
says, ``Unfortunately, she is critical to me. What will it cost
us?''
[Exhibit follows:]
<GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT>
Ms. Federici. This event, to the best of my recollection,
as I answered in my deposition on October 7, did not take
place. These are conversations between people, not me, and I do
not know what Jack was thinking or what was in his mind. I
can't address this e-mail.
Senator Dorgan. Ms. Federici, there is so much to ask you
about.
Ms. Federici. I am happy to answer all of your questions.
Senator Dorgan. I understand, although I guess I am not
understanding your answers. I think that this set of e-mails
and the evidence that we have collected through subpoena paints
a very clear picture of what was going on. You are denying
virtually all of it. I understand that. You come to the
committee with some jeopardy.
Ms. Federici. I am not lying. Senator, I am not lying to
this committee, okay? I am not lying to this committee. Jack
Abramoff gave us, you have to put it into the context of 4
years ago, 4\1/2\ years ago. Jack Abramoff was a very well
known and very highly respected lobbyist and Republican
activist.
Let me put it to you this way. When I walk into the
Republican National Committee building, and Chairman McCain,
you will know this more than Vice Chairman Dorgan, there is a
center there called the DeVos Media Center. I believe that the
DeVos', a couple, gave $1 million out of their own pocket to
help construct that media center. I do not believe that they
received anything personally in exchange for that. It is
philanthropy.
The Chairman. Ms. Federici, please. Let's get back on the
subject. The time of this committee is more valuable than to
talk about a contribution from someone from the State of
Michigan.
Here is the question, Ms. Federici. In one exhibit, Todd
Boulanger, a senior member of Mr. Abramoff's team, is asked,
``Can Italia get shit in the President's budget to Congress?''
Mr. Abramoff responds, ``I do not think she has juice beyond
Interior.''
Another exhibit, here the two discuss CREA and a political
contribution, Mr. Abramoff writes to Mr. Boulanger, ``Todd, did
we not request money for CREA from them? That is our access to
Norton. We need money for them more than many of the others.''
Another exhibit, here the two discuss a CREA freshman
reception, Mr. Abramoff replies, ``Unfortunately, she is
critical to me.''
Why is it, Ms. Federici, that in your view, that Mr.
Abramoff time after time after time, not only believes you are
critical, but ensures that donations are made to you and your
organization? How do you think he became so confused?
Ms. Federici. Senator, how did he get confused enough to
call Native Americans ``troglodytes?'' Nobody can know what
Jack Abramoff was thinking.
The Chairman. That is not responsive, Ms. Federici.
Ms. Federici. I can't know what was in Jack Abramoff's
mind.
The Chairman. So the answer is you do not know?
Ms. Federici. I have no idea. Those e-mails were not to me
or from me.
The Chairman. Although there are e-mails that say, ``I have
got it; I will get on it; I have a meeting a 4 p.m. this
afternoon.''
Ms. Federici. I help my friends.
The Chairman. We have a trail.
Ms. Federici. I am sorry.
The Chairman. Ms. Federici, for the last time, I am asking
you not to interrupt me.
Even though there is e-mail after e-mail where you state,
``I've got it; I am on it; I have an appointment at 4 p.m.''
What is Mr. Abramoff supposed to think when every e-mail that
he sends to you, you are saying ``I am on it ASAP; I have got
it; I have a meeting at four,'' on and on and on. What is he
supposed to think?
Ms. Federici. Senator, it is not every e-mail. My e-mails
to Jack, many, many, many, many of them, and I am extremely
concerned that this committee does not have them, are all,
``Jack, here is what we are doing with the money; we have this
project; we are focus-testing this video that I brought with
me; we are taking out a very expensive $40,000 ad in the
Washington Post; we are launching a major alliance with the
Teamsters that is going to cost 50 grand.''
And that is what was in my mind. I cannot say what was in
Jack's mind. From time to time, and it does, as we go through
these rapid-fire, just sitting here today, he did ask me for
assistance, but it was not the body of the work that I did. I
did a lot of work, real environmental work with his funding.
The Chairman. The focus of this committee's hearing is why
you continued to respond to him, ``I've got it; I'm on it.''
And you have given no satisfactory explanation. And the fact
that you were doing other work at the time, Ms. Federici, is
not convincing.
Ms. Federici. Well, Senator, may I respond?
The Chairman. Yes; as long as it is a direct response to
the question.
Ms. Federici. Okay. But Senator, I did environmental work
with the money that Jack gave us, and if he called me or e-
mailed me and asked me to pick up the phone and raise and issue
and I said I was going to call, I called. I can't tell you what
was in his mind. I don't know what he was telling his donors. I
wish he had given me access to them. He did not, because I
think that we would not be sitting here today if I had access
to them. And we did not do anything untoward with those
contributions.
Thank you.
Senator Dorgan. Ms. Federici, is your organization a
501(c)(3) or (4)?
Ms. Federici. No, sir; We are a 501(c)(4).
Senator Dorgan. Formerly a 527?
Ms. Federici. We were a 527 until 2000.
Senator Dorgan. As a 501(c)(4), your organization would not
be collecting money for the purposes of using it politically.
Would that be accurate?
Ms. Federici. I do not understand all the ins and outs.
Senator Dorgan. Were there restrictions on the use of the
money?
Ms. Federici. We are not allowed to write checks to
campaigns. We are not allowed to endorse political candidates.
We are allowed to engage in advocacy, environmental advocacy
and point out examples of hypocrisy and things like that.
Senator Dorgan. In your deposition, you said ``we focus-
tested the video of John Kerry leaving a fuel efficiency rally
and hopping into an SUV.''
Ms. Federici. Right.
Senator Dorgan. And then you talk about, ``I wanted to let
you know we just posted the anti-Kerry video-clip on our
website; released it to the news media in Beta format; The
O'Reilly Factor and Hannity and Colmes are interested; I will
keep my fingers crossed; the Post ad comes out on Wednesday.''
Ms. Federici. It was very important to policy, because at
the time Senator Kerry was threatening to filibuster ANWR on
the floor of the U.S. Senate. And the rally that he was
speaking at was a fuel efficiency and ANWR rally that he then,
after telling people to tighten their belts, conserve and
accept higher gas prices, walked past five limousines and got
into a chauffeur-driven SUV. It was timed with an important
public policy matter.
Senator Dorgan. Ms. Federici, in these old western movies
on television, they have this phrase, ``what are you going to
believe: Me or your own eyes? I do not understand this
testimony. This body of evidence we have is complete and
persuasive that you came into hundreds of thousands of dollars,
at some moribund little environmental organization, and all of
a sudden you seem to be on the payroll of or working for Mr.
Abramoff in all kinds of ways. I mean, obviously it looks to me
pretty political, but let me ask you, how does this role of
yours that we see in evidence here, how does that relate to
Indian tribes as regards the environment?
Ms. Federici. Well, okay, my op/ed piece that was entitled
American Ingenuity in Energy Stability mirrors quite closely
actually the piece written by David Pago from the Saginaw
Chippewa Tribe, Gas Prices Hurt Indians More Than Others. We
have worked extensively on issues relating to high gas prices.
We are dancing around an issue here that I think it is time to
mention because you asked me why I thought this was a little
bit of a witch hunt.
A lot of the money that was used, that was raised during
this time period was spent constructing and putting together
the Labor Environment Alliance, and the major project of the
Labor Environment Alliance were pink slips that we made to
defeat the Lieberman and McCain Climate Stewardship Act. And
so, a lot of the money that was raised during this time period
was spent putting together a coalition which then funded an
effort to defeat Senator McCain's legislation on the basis that
it would raise gasoline prices.
Now, reasonable people can disagree. I am sure Senator
McCain believes that his legislation wouldn't raise gas prices.
We had a different viewpoint, but we worked on that from almost
all of 2002, putting the Alliance together, and most of 2003.
Senator Dorgan. And that was funded by the Indian tribes?
Ms. Federici. It was out of our general support funding.
Senator Dorgan. Let me ask you, is there any trail of
evidence that would suggest that the Indian tribes decided that
was going to be a big issue for them, and they wanted to
deliver hundreds of thousands of dollars to you for that
purpose? Any evidence that you have about that?
Ms. Federici. No, Senator; other than the fact that we have
a website, www.crea-online.org, with our mission statement, our
projects, publicly available information, telephone number, e-
mail, et cetera, and nobody ever reached out, none of our
donors ever reached out to me to either contact me to set up a
meeting or to say, hey wait 1 minute; you are doing things with
our funding that is counter to how we would like to see our
funds used.
Senator Dorgan. It almost sounds like a fairy tale, doesn't
it? You get hundreds of thousands, up to $500,000 and the
people that gave it to you really never reached out to you to
talk to you about the issues that represented the main elements
of your organizations.
That is why I think this is unbelievable, Ms. Federici. We
have a body of evidence here that suggests you got a
substantial amount of money from Indian tribes, and then you
were very busy working with Mr. Abramoff and a close friend at
Interior, close friend for 10 years. You were very busy moving
back and forth on a wide range of very controversial Indian
issues, and now you come here and say, well, I really did not
do that; that really did not happen.
Ms. Federici. Senator, I did not say that I really did not
do that.
Senator Dorgan. Well, did you do it then?
Ms. Federici. I told you that I contacted folks at
Interior, but that the issues were, in my mind, it was Ralph
Reed is angry, and James Dobson is angry; is anybody paying
attention to this? Jack represented to me, and I know that
there are e-mails, because I was actually shown them by your
staff, where he repeatedly represents to me in writing that he
does not have any way of talking to people at the Bureau of
Indian Affairs; that nobody will speak with him. In his framing
of that issue to me, he said that other people were becoming
angry and frustrated with his inability to have meetings.
Now, at the time, hindsight is 20-20, he was the paid
representative of the Choctaw and the Coushatta and the Saginaw
Chippewa and lots of very nice Indian tribes. If he presented
that information to me in writing as he did, and also verbally
on the phone, why wouldn't I pick up the phone and call the
Chief Operating Officer and just say, ``hey.'' People who are
concerned about these issues are frustrated that they can't,
you know.
Senator Dorgan. You know what bothers me? We have been
through hours and hours and hours and hours of hearings. And
the staff has been through days and days of interviews at this
point. It is pretty clear that this is one of the most
disgusting tales of greed and avarice, or perhaps fraud,
stealing. It is unbelievable what we have uncovered here. It is
almost sickening to see what we have uncovered, the people
being bilked and defrauded and so on.
And you come to our table and say, you know, gosh, this was
just about friendships, hundreds of thousands of dollars that
came my way and I didn't really do much. I mean, somehow none
of this adds up, Ms. Federici. As I said before, this
committee, in my judgment, has had people testify, and in my
judgment some of the testimony has been fraudulent. And we need
to find out who because there are consequences for that.
And I do not know where this hearing goes from here, what
we do. I have indicated that I think we have some additional
witnesses or some additional people to interview; perhaps
another hearing. But I think at some point, Mr. Chairman, we
have to reconcile as well some of the inherent conflicts that
this committee has been told in open hearing because there are
consequences to providing testimony that is false testimony.
Ms. Federici. And there very well should be, and I did not
provide any false testimony to this committee.
The Chairman. Ms. Federici, do you have anything from the
IRS that establishes you as a 501(c)(4)?
Ms. Federici. Can you be more specific, Senator?
The Chairman. In other words, when you were established as
a certain category, you receive documentation from the IRS to
authenticate that. Your file is one.
Ms. Federici. Our General Counsel on that issue, well,
actually CREA's General Counsel is Ben Ginsburg. He did our
incorporation. Those records would be with him at Patton Boggs.
He has assured me that our filing was done properly.
The Chairman. Would you provide it for the record, please?
Ms. Federici. Sure. I will ask Mr. Ginsburg for that
information.
The Chairman. No; you can get it. You are the head of the
organization, Ms. Federici.
Ms. Federici. Okay.
Senator Dorgan. Mr. Chairman, I have to be on the floor of
the Senate in just a few minutes. I wonder if I might just ask
one additional question.
The Chairman. Sure.
Senator Dorgan. Ms. Federici, because of the pattern I see
here with this 501(c)(4), and you heard that we will be
submitting at the request of the Finance Committee information
about activities of (c)(3)s and (c)(4)s that we have uncovered,
let me ask you, has any of the funding that has come to the
(c)(4) that you are involved in been used by you personally or
for political purposes?
Ms. Federici. Not to my knowledge.
Senator Dorgan. So you have not used any of that funding
from your (c)(4)?
Ms. Federici. I pay myself a salary. We have salaries.
Senator Dorgan. Beyond a salary, you have not converted
that to personal use in any way, and you have not used it for
political purposes?
Ms. Federici. Well, converted to personal use would be
salary or reimbursements and things like that. No. I mean, if
money from CREA goes to me, it is salary or reimbursement.
Senator Dorgan. The reason I am asking the question is this
money came to you from Indian tribes.
Ms. Federici. Right, Senator.
Senator Dorgan. And we are trying to track the money from
Indian tribes, who it went to and how it was used.
Ms. Federici. And I want to actually be as forthcoming as
possible on that point. We were not a group that received money
and then hired any of Jack's friends or wrote checks to any of
Jack's organizations or anything like that.
The Chairman. We would like to have a yes or no answer.
Have you ever made any use of the money for purely personal
expenses for campaign work-related contributions?
Ms. Federici. Do you mean did I ever write a CREA check for
a campaign?
The Chairman. That was the question, or any for purely
personal expenses?
Ms. Federici. No; not to the best of my recollection. No.
The Chairman. Was CREA ever used as a conduit for any
reasons? In other words, was the CREA ever used to funnel money
from one source to another?
Ms. Federici. No, Senator; I mean, not to the best of my
recollection. I would actually prefer to be answering that
question ``no.'' You know, and if you have specifics, I could
probably, if you wanted to know did I ever write checks back to
the organizations Jack ran, no.
The Chairman. Any other organization?
Ms. Federici. No; Senator.
The Chairman. Thank you very much, Ms. Federici. I am sure
that there will be more concerning this particular
relationship, this three-cornered relationship between you and
the Department of the Interior and Mr. Abramoff.
Ms. Federici. Senator, I am happy to help in any way I can.
The Chairman. Well, I thank you.
This hearing is adjourned.
[Whereupon at 11:25 a.m., the committee was adjourned, to
reconvene at the call of the Chair.]
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A P P E N D I X
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Additional Material Submitted for the Record
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<all>