Senator Biden Talks Iraq on CNN Late Edition
March 11, 2007
Please note that this is a partial transcript
ROBERTS: This week, Democrats in Congress ratcheted up their challenge to the White House over Iraq by outlining various resolutions and amendments seeking specific timetables for the exit of U.S. forces. But will it amount to any significant change in policy?
Joining us from Wilmington, Delaware, is the Democratic chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Senator Joseph Biden; and in Greenville, South Carolina, Republican Senator Lindsey Graham. He's a member of the Armed Services Committee.
Senator Biden, let me go to you first of all. This conference that took place in Iraq yesterday, do you have any hope at all that it's going to lead to some sort of progress in the future?
SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: Well, I'm glad it occurred, John. But the bottom line here is you need a political solution inside Iraq that will be bided by outside Iraq. And the bottom line of that is, there's never been an end of sectarian violence that's self-sustaining without either a dictator, occupation or a federal system. Giving the people in that area -- the Sunnis, the Shias, the Kurds -- control over the fabric of their daily lives, and that, ultimately -- everybody says, no military solution, need for political solution, yet there is no specific discussion of what the nature of that political solution will be. And if they get to that, it will be very positive.
ROBERTS: Senator Graham, yesterday after the conference at a press conference, Abbas Araghchi, who is the Iranian deputy foreign minister said, quote, "The security of Iraq is our security. I think that the Americans are unfortunately suffering from intelligence failure. They have made so many mistakes and policies in Iraq because of the false information and intelligence they had at the beginning."
Essentially, Iran spent all of yesterday saying this is all the United States' fault. How do you respond to that?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: Well, I think the biggest mistake the international community is going to make with Iran is to not focus like a laser on their nuclear program. I don't believe the international community has made a mistake when it believes in a search that the Iranian nuclear program is beyond peaceful purposes, heading onto the weapons arena.
So what I would like to see us do with Iran, as an international community, is focus on their nuclear weapons program. I think the evidence is strong. I think it's overwhelming. And I hope the international community will act regarding the Iranian nuclear program.
As to Iraq, Iran could play a constructive role. They are not. I believe, according to Admiral McConnell in response to Senator Levin's question, that the Iranian Republican Guard units, branches of that Republican Guard are providing weapons to Iraq and there is a high probability that the political leadership in Iran is condoning that.
So I hope we can bring better security to Iraq, but I don't believe Iran shares our goal of creating a democracy in Iraq and we'll never have unity there.
ROBERTS: I think that's the al-Quds Force that you're referring to, Senator Graham.
GRAHAM: Yes, sir. Yes, that's right. That's right.
ROBERTS: And you might have just heard the foreign minister, Hoshyar Zebari, say that they have reached out to Iran many times. When I went to interview him in October in his office in Baghdad, he had just been meeting with the Iranian ambassador to Iraq, yet they can't seem to make any headway. So how do you deal with a country that is as recalcitrant as that about what's happening inside your own country?
GRAHAM: Well, from my point of view, I think the Iraqis are trying to reach out to their neighbors and trying to explain to Iran that, "Hey, a dysfunctional Iraq is not in your best interest."
But the truth of the matter is that the biggest threat to the Iranian theocracy would be a democracy in Iran. The biggest threat to the police state in Syria would be a democracy in Lebanon or Iraq. So we just don't have common interest.
And again, my big fear is, when we talk about Iran's role in Iraq, that we take our eye off the ball when it comes to the Iranian nuclear program. So I would love the world to support Iraq and tell Iraq two things -- Iran two things: Quit meddling in -- Iran, quit meddling in Iraq, and stop your nuclear ambitions. I think the world needs to tell Iran that, and a conference in Baghdad is not exactly going to deliver that message.
ROBERTS: Senator Biden, the United States and Iran didn't sit down and talk with each other. There was some speculation as to whether they might. U.S. officials said, if we happen to bump into them in the room, certainly we'll talk to them. Should they have made a point talking to each other?
BIDEN: Well, John, I think it's useful for them to talk with one another. But look, let's get to the -- let's cut to the chase here. Let's assume Iran all of a sudden became a perfect neighbor. Does anybody think that ends the war in Iraq?
Let's get real here. What is happening here is, there is a self- sustaining sectarian violence. Shia killing Sunni. Let's cut through it all. Everybody in the outside could go away and be perfect. No one involved. We still have Americans getting killed. Eighty-seven, 85, 27 so far this month.
Why? Because of the self-sustaining sectarian violence. Why are people bringing in these weapons? Why are they being accepted when they're sent in? Because you've got Sunnis -- Shia using them to kill Sunnis. Sunnis out there with death squads killing Shia.
So, the bottom line here is, there's no possibility of a democracy like we know it in our lifetime there. Their constitution calls for a decentralized federal government. The only time, John, this has ever ended in history is when you have a loosely federated system like what we did up in Bosnia and in Kosovo.
The circumstance requires you to allow the president to back off of this notion of a strong central government headed by Shia that's somehow going to be a democracy. It will never, never, never happen, no matter what the neighbors do.
ROBERTS: That's a plan you've been pushing for a while. Your colleagues in Congress don't seem to be adopting it just yet, Senator Biden. But they are moving...
BIDEN: Well, a lot of people are adopting it. If you've noticed, John, it's becoming the plan of default almost everybody's part from Henry Kissinger to, straight through. Everybody's going to get to that eventually, because no one can name me a circumstance where any other solution has ever worked.
ROBERTS: But the point was, the plan they are getting through is the idea of with drawing the troops. Seminar Graham on "Meet the Press" last Sunday, here is what you said about Democratic attempts to end the war without cutting off funding.
And that is, "If you're not willing to cut off funding, which is the Congress's responsibility, then everything else really hampers General Petraeus. It's really a signal to him that, 'We have no faith in you'. Either stop him from going or give him the resources to do their job. Everything else is just political theater."
What the Democrats were doing this week, Senator Graham, is that all just political theater?
GRAHAM: I think it is political theater that's dangerous in nature. I do believe that there will never be a political settlement in Iraq until you deal with the violence. And that when you set a date certain that we're going to withdraw, and you put benchmarks that the following things are not done by a certain date, you're not only communicating to the Iraqi political leadership, you're communicating to the insurgents in al Qaida. You're giving them a road map as to what they need to do to beat us and drive us out.
The Iraqi representative who was on before us understands what would happen if we left Iraq. Our national security interests are going to be defined not by when we leave, but what we left behind. I do believe that the political leadership of Iraq, with increased capacity, politically, militarily and economically, can resolve their problems in a way to create a stable, functioning government.
But the day you set a deadline and tell our enemy when we're going to leave and what it takes to make us leave, you've undercut Petraeus, you've undercut the political compromises that need to be made. This Joe and I agree on. You're not going to win this war militarily.
But here is where we differ. We have made a mistake in the past. The biggest mistake is not to have enough troops on the ground to secure the country. There's 40 percent unemployment in Baghdad. We need to reinforce this infant democracy that's less than a year old across all fronts and quit talking about leaving until we get it right. Our national security interests will be determined by what we left behind. A failed state in Iraq is a nightmare for this country. We need to allow General Petraeus a chance to go forward. These resolution do not help.
ROBERTS: When these resolutions were unveiled later in the week, they were convoluted to say the least. Take a quick listen to some of this press conference.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. DAVID R. OBEY, D-WIS.: Troops must be out of a combat role by October -- I mean, by August of 19 -- 2007.
REP. NANCY PELOSI, D-CALIF.: 2008. If they meet (inaudible).
OBEY: I'm sorry, that's right.
PELOSI: OK. But if they haven't made any progress by July, we begin the 180 days. If they haven't made any. If they haven't made -- if the president cannot demonstrate progress by July, we begin the 180 days.
UNKNOWN: July 1st or 31st?
PELOSI: Is it July 1st or 31st? July 1st?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: Joe Biden, how do you pass or enforce something you can't even explain?
BIDEN: Well, look, here's what's going on here. The Iraq Study Group, the Biden-Gelb plan, every proposal out there says that,, look, unless you start to move towards some kind of resolution of your political dilemma in Iraq, you can't expect us to stay forever. The Iraqi study group said by March of '08. The Biden-Levin proposal that is now the Reid proposal says by March '08. That's the goal.
The bottom line here is, you cannot continue to escalate this war without any underlying plan as to what happens when in fact you do bring order, if you bring order. The president has now gone from Petraeus telling us there are going to be 17,500 troops. They're now talking about the need for 30,000 troops in there. They're now talking about being there for another year.
I mean, what is the plan, Stan? What's going on here? What are you attempting to do? And all we're saying is, Mr. President, do what the rest of the military had said. Don't put us in the middle of a civil war. Train the Iraqi troops, guard the borders, make sure that you deny jihadis occupation of open territory.
And to do that you need fewer troops. You need fewer troops to do that, and you'll have fewer Americans being killed. And you'll put the burden upon the Iraqi leadership to come up with an accommodation between Sunni and Shia so they stop killing each other.
ROBERTS: Gentlemen, I want to take...
BIDEN: That's the bottom line.
ROBERTS: I want to take a quick break. Stay around, though, because we've got lots more to talk about.Coming up, the FBI acknowledges improperly obtaining the personal records of thousands of Americans. Did the agency abuse anti- terrorism laws? We'll ask Senators Biden and Graham. But up next, a check of what's in the news right now, including today's deadly bombing in Baghdad. Stay with "Late Edition." We'll be right back.
(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT MUELLER, FBI DIRECTOR: I am the person responsible. I am the person accountable. And I am committed to ensuring that we correct these deficiencies and live up to these responsibilities.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: FBI Director Robert Mueller responding to an internal audit which found that the agency improperly seized phone, banking and other personal records of thousands of Americans.
I'm John Roberts in for Wolf Blitzer. We're talking with Senators Joseph Biden and Lindsey Graham, both members of the Senate Judiciary Committee.
And Senator Graham, let me go to this one with you, first of all, on this Department of Justice inspectors general's report which said, quote, "We concluded many of the problems we identified constituted serious misuse of the FBI's national security letter authorities."
Senator Graham, isn't this exactly what opponents of the Patriot Act had been warning about?
GRAHAM: Well, I think the authority given to the FBI is a necessary change in our laws to combat the war on terror. The fact that it may have been abused is something that we'll take serious. It came from an internal investigation or audit by the FBI, so I expect the Judiciary Committee, Senator Biden, Levin, Specter, myself and others, will have some interest in how this is corrected.
I think the change in the law made sense, the Patriot Act makes sense, but you can't allow it to be abused. And, apparently, there is some evidence that it has been abused and we need to correct it.
ROBERTS: Senator Biden, to you on that. Again, isn't this what people were warning about?
BIDEN: Yes. It's a power that can't be controlled. It should be withdrawn or the people in charge should be fired, one of the two. You've got to do something about that.
ROBERTS: Attorney General Alberto Gonzales has come under some fire for the firing of eight U.S. attorneys. In fact, this morning on another morning program, Senator Schumer said that he should be fired or should resign.
Arlen Specter at a committee hearing the other day suggested as much. Take a quick listen to what he said. He said "One day," quote, "there will be a new attorney general, maybe sooner rather than later." He then clarified his comments to say, "I'm not saying he should step down."
But Senator Graham, what you do think? Should he?
GRAHAM: I think the fact that Senator Schumer asked for him to step down means he won't. You know, it does interject a little politics here. But the idea of how these U.S. attorneys were handled is, at best, clumsy.
You know, U.S. attorneys serve at the will of the president, and most of them involved have been there five and six years. But this idea they were fired for a cause seems to me to be unseemly, unnecessary and this whole matter was poorly handled. And that's all I know to say about it.
I don't believe the attorney general will resign, but this whole episode was unnecessarily poorly handled, because you can ask any U.S. attorney to leave. That's the right of the president. Clinton let them all go when he took over, but you don't need to start attacking people's reputations unfairly and I think some of that's been done.
ROBERTS: Senator Biden, what you do think about the attorney general, should he go?
BIDEN: You don't let them go in the middle of their term when they are, in fact, put in a position where pressure is being put on them to proceed in a political way.
I think Gonzales has lost the confidence of the vast majority of the American people. I think it goes all the way back to the torture memos, when we gave him the benefit of the doubt, straight through to the firing of these U.S. attorneys and until recently insisting that they could, in fact, under a law -- a little-known provision in the law -- allow them to replace attorneys general.
I think it's an abuse of power. And I think he's lost the confidence of the American people. I think he's lost the confidence of many in the United States Congress. And, obviously, it it's president's judgment to say whether he should stay or not, but I think he's lost the confidence of the Congress.
ROBERTS: And do you think he should resign?
BIDEN: Well, that's a judgment -- I think we would be better off if he did, but that's a judgment the president is going to have to make. He has got some real problems here. There is very little credibility in the Justice Department right now.
