kerugma, Broken Arrow (1/2/2009 4:37:43 AM)

Mr. McKinney,

RE:" you can count on ONE FINGERthe number of times a person with a concealed carry permit has been charged with a crime."(caps mine)

In 2008, there were at Least TWO licensed concealed weapons carriers charged with crimes in Tulsa Alone.

-The Man who shot another man at approx. 17th and S.Boston.

-The Man who shot and KILLED another man on Riverside Drive after an alleged Road Rage Incident.

Furthermore, You write:
"People with concealed carry permits are not a part of the problem."

They are INDEED a PART of the problem!

With the exception of Military,Law Enforcement and Security personell etc.

People who carry concealed weapons,licensed or unlicensed,(except in line of Duty) are, in my opinion, cowards and latent or potential dangers to Society.

droopy, wagoner (1/2/2009 6:30:04 AM)

Good letter, Mr. Mckinney. We need more clear thinking people posting letters and comments.

Dr. Strangelove, Tulsa (1/2/2009 6:59:42 AM)

kerugma you have got to be kidding.

kerugma, Broken Arrow (1/2/2009 7:06:09 AM)

Dr. Strangelove,

Seriously, Why Would You Think I Was "Kidding"??

peelumba, (1/2/2009 7:07:45 AM)

kerugma, ...wow have lost your mind? nothing wrong with properly certified legal cc permit holders having the ability to protect themselves and in some cases others. maybe your protection would be the exception?

Michael Phillips, Tulsa (1/2/2009 7:09:09 AM)

The blood bath that has been predicted in each state when Shall Issue Conceal Carry Laws were considered never happened. Now those responsible for those faulty predictions are making new predictions of how insane college students will go crazy and shoot up colleges.
This writer is absolutely correct. Drew Diamond ignored the fact that the law considered last session had nothing what ever to do with high schools. Mr. Diamond deserves no credibility.

kerugma, Broken Arrow (1/2/2009 7:13:48 AM)

Peelumba,

There is No Scenario that would justify the carrying of a CONCEALED weapon.

Bville Yellow Dog, Bville (1/2/2009 7:19:56 AM)

Truth is a horrible thing to waste - except when it conflicts with your ideology?
Most guns kill their owners or someone the owner knows.

Democrat, Tulsa County (1/2/2009 7:26:22 AM)

kerugma and BYD--Good points.

Eagle 4, Tulsa (1/2/2009 7:37:23 AM)

To stand between packers and their victims is one definition of insanity - see ya!

peelumba, (1/2/2009 7:43:09 AM)

lol my gun nor any in my family have killed anyone but, it is a wonderful feeling to know without a doubt i can and will protect my family with a legal and totaly justifiable means with all the wackos out there who couldn't care less about any laws. i will take the chance with my gun instead of my cell phone the odds are stacked in my favor

Ayo, T-Town (1/2/2009 7:50:46 AM)

Well, after New Years Eve theres no question of how many in my neighborhood have guns, LOL.

I'm glad we have a concealed weapon law in OK.

Michael Phillips, Tulsa (1/2/2009 7:56:40 AM)

Bville, I know you have written this line many times in the past. Is there some study you are citing when writing "Most guns kill their owners or someone the owner knows" or are you just making this up? I know a lot of people who own guns and I haven't so much as seen a gun that has killed anyone except in museums.

Democrat, I know you believe you are very well read on this subject and this morning you are complimenting Bville for his comment. Do you know of a study that suggests "Most guns kill their owners or someone the owner knows"? I don't even think the Brady Group makes this kind of claim.

Dr. Strangelove, Tulsa (1/2/2009 8:04:53 AM)

kerugma you state that anyone with a CCP is a coward and a danger to society. I was hoping some other permitted gun owners would chime in to let you know just how ridiculous that statement is. Why would you consider someone who is legally licensed to carry a firearm a threat?

Democrat, Tulsa County (1/2/2009 8:05:57 AM)

Michael:

You are correct about BYD's statement. It does say something that is clearly not true. My hat is off to you for catching it.

Now in defense of BYD, I understood the point that he was trying to make. In cases involving gun fatalities, either the owner of the gun or someone known by the owner of the gun is killed.

Yes, I found a study that confirms my edited version of BYD's point. It is found by going to yahoo and typing in - gun death statistics. Open the first source and you will get national statistics compiled by the Illinois Council on Handgun violence. The statistics clearly show that "bad guys" are far less likely to be killed by a firearm than is the owner or acquaintance of the owner.

Ernie G, Tulsa (1/2/2009 8:14:10 AM)

An excellent letter, John. You make a very good point about Drew Diamond's credibility. I remember well when he consistently denied the existence of gangs in Tulsa, when every other Tulsa law enforcement officer knew otherwise. What was that about? And you are right. People with concealed carry permits are definitely not the problem. Liberals always want to ignore the fact that thousands of criminals in Oklahoma carry firearms without a permit, and use them in crimes. That will always be the case. But if anyone proposes doing anything that might facilitate a law-abiding citizens in protecting themselves and their families, then the liberals default to their knee-jerk/hand-wringing "doom and gloom" routine. Instead, if HB 2513 were approved, it would virtually guarantee that we would never have a mass murder incident in any of our colleges and universities in Oklahoma. That would be a tremendous accomplishment.

Angry Citizen!, Bluejacket (1/2/2009 8:19:31 AM)

Now that the government has given me permission to carry my gun, I do. I'm not going to be a helpless victim because people like Kerugma think they know what's best for me. What type of security are you talking about Kerugma, Blackwater?

Ernie G, Tulsa (1/2/2009 8:23:39 AM)

Kerugma, I resent your ridiculous, outlandish statement about concealed carry permit holders. I am a U.S. military veteran and a former Tulsa Police Officer, and I have carried a legal concealed weapon since 1993. I am no coward, and I am no danger to society. YOU are the coward, and the danger to society, hiding behind lies, half-truths and mis-statements.

Democrat, Tulsa County (1/2/2009 8:49:09 AM)

Michael:

I made a mistake similar to BYD's error. I should have included the words- more likely to be- between the words is and killed in the second paragraph. Of course, the way in which I wrote the third paragraph cleared up the meaning. I just didn't want to give you another chance to nitpick an opponent over language even though you had to understand the points that we were trying to make.

ILA-NRA EVC District 4 OK, (1/2/2009 9:00:44 AM)

Great letter,
Mr. Diamond is indeed disolusioned.
No need to argue with the rediculous posts on here about guns killing their owners. Imagine that. The facts that are being found and quoted by these spineless cowards on yahoo are from Chicago. Enough said. Grow up. If you don't want to carry a concealed weapon then DON'T CARRY ONE! Stop trying to restrict my constitutional rights.

Michael Phillips, Tulsa (1/2/2009 9:01:21 AM)

Democrat, I suppose if you are going to refuse to go to the NRA website and insist on reading about gun laws and statistics you might think you are restricted to go to either the defunct Handgun Control Inc. or it's affiliates. Truth is you can go to groups such as Gun Owners of America to get your data and avoid being laughed at by people who have common sense.
You are writing nonsense. If you believed for one minute this statistic applies to you or me, you're not thinking. There are lots of examples of drug dealers shooting each other to death and they know each other. I learned this by studying statistics compiled by your hero, Steven Levitt. Because they may have little formal training they sometimes accidentally shoot themselves. Although shootings or even threats involving Conceal Carry holders are few, shootings between drug dealers are relatively common. I am not a drug dealer and I am assuming you aren't either so you shouldn't rely so heavily on statistics to quantify your risk.
If none of this is going to convince you, and you insist on believing gun owners place themselves and others they know in jeopardy, then you should get rid of your guns immediately.

Zeus, APO (1/2/2009 9:06:53 AM)

I would like a breakdown not on just gun owners deaths by the own firearms, but on those who are licensed to carry concealed weapons. Isn't this what we are questioning? I would be interested in staying on topic with this discussion and not venturing off into "total" gun owners, in which we would need a breakdown of whether or not these owners were in the act of committing a crime, drunk or intoxicated on drugs, if they had any firearems training, etc... As far as killing others they know...hmmm. I wonder if crimes are perpetrated against victims that the offender knows? Makes sense, huh? Yeah, offenders, as a rule, commit their crimes against those they know. That way you know what loot you are going to get. Just saying.

52favoriteteacher, WASHBURN, MO (1/2/2009 9:12:43 AM)

Ernie G

VERY WELL SAID

Guns do not kill, the human being is totally in charge here.

BYD--you have to be kidding
A gun is a legal device for protection. My gun is ready, loaded, waiting for duty.
It always will be ready...

Democrat, Tulsa County (1/2/2009 9:26:29 AM)

Michael: Sorry to have to say it, but your response was jibberish. The fact remains that a loaded gun is far more likely to result in the fatality of its owner or a friend or family member of the owner than it will result in the death of a "bad guy."

To all of those on this site use the word "coward" to describe opponents to concealed carry on college campuses:

Consider that I teach both, at the high school and the college level. I am on a high school campus for about 180 days each year (give or take a sick day here and there) and as a part-time college instructor and educational consultant, I am on college and university campuses 80-90 days each year. Never have I felt the need to carry a gun onto any campus in all of my years as an educator. I have to wonder why so many of you are so afraid. I understand that the chance of being struck by lightning is far greater than my chance of being involved in an act of gun violence on a school campus. I also understand that the odds of a loaded gun going off for whatever reason increases whenever loaded guns are present.

Michael: You'll have to break into my home to get my guns away from me. I don't need the NRA to defend my Constitutional right to keep my guns in my home, buddy.

Ron B, (1/2/2009 9:33:14 AM)

I always wonder when reading posts from people so against guns and concealed carry if they have ever been a victim of a violent crime. Have you guys ever stared down the barrell of a gun held by someone you don't know? Have you had them threaten to kill you? Have you been taken to the back of a business and been told to "lie on the floor"? Until you have some of that happen to you, you are just talking or writing in this case. I HAVE had all of this happen. Pharmacies where I have worked have been held up 3 times. I have a permit and CARRY. I am not looking for anything but a means of protection...I dread the day I would ever have to use my weapon, but I will if I have to.