<DOC>
[109 Senate Hearings]
[From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access]
[DOCID: f:30255.wais]
S. Hrg. 109-608
THE FINDINGS AND RECOMMENDATIONS OF THE COMMISSION ON SAFETY AND ABUSE
IN AMERICA'S PRISONS
=======================================================================
HEARING
before the
SUBCOMMITTEE ON CORRECTIONS AND REHABILITATION
of the
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED NINTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
June 8, 2006
__________
Serial No. J-109-83
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary
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COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
ARLEN SPECTER, Pennsylvania, Chairman
ORRIN G. HATCH, Utah PATRICK J. LEAHY, Vermont
CHARLES E. GRASSLEY, Iowa EDWARD M. KENNEDY, Massachusetts
JON KYL, Arizona JOSEPH R. BIDEN, Jr., Delaware
MIKE DeWINE, Ohio HERBERT KOHL, Wisconsin
JEFF SESSIONS, Alabama DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California
LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina RUSSELL D. FEINGOLD, Wisconsin
JOHN CORNYN, Texas CHARLES E. SCHUMER, New York
SAM BROWNBACK, Kansas RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois
TOM COBURN, Oklahoma
Michael O'Neill, Chief Counsel and Staff Director
Bruce A. Cohen, Democratic Chief Counsel and Staff Director
------
Subcommittee on Corrections and Rehabilitation
TOM COBURN, Oklahoma, Chairman
ARLEN SPECTER, Pennsylvania RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois
JEFF SESSIONS, Alabama PATRICK J. LEAHY, Vermont
JOHN CORNYN, Texas JOSEPH R. BIDEN, Jr., Delaware
SAM BROWNBACK, Kansas RUSSELL D. FEINGOLD, Wisconsin
Mary Chesser, Majority Chief Counsel
Mark Keam, Democratic Chief Counsel
C O N T E N T S
----------
STATEMENTS OF COMMITTEE MEMBERS
Page
Coburn, Hon. Tom, a U.S. Senator from the State of Oklahoma...... 1
Durbin, Hon. Richard J. a U.S. Senator from the State of Utah.... 2
prepared statement........................................... 51
Feingold, Hon. Russell D. Feingold, a U.S. Senator from the State
of Wisconsin, prepared statement............................... 53
Leahy, Hon. Patrick J., a U.S. Senator from State of Vermont,
prepared statement............................................. 72
WITNESSES
Gibbons, John J., Commission Co-Chairman, and former Chief Judge,
U.S. Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit, Newark, New Jersey 12
Katzenbach, Nicholas de B., Commission Co-Chairman, and former
U.S. Attorney General, Princeton, New Jersey................... 7
Maynard, Gary D., Commissioner, and Director, Iowa Department of
Corrections, and President-Elect, American Correctional
Association, Des Moines, Iowa.................................. 10
Morial, Marc H., Commissioner, and President and Chief Executive
Officer, National Urban League, former Mayor of New Orleans,
and former Louisiana State Senator, New York, New York......... 5
Nolan, Pat, Commissioner, and President, Prison Fellowship's
Justice Fellowship, and Member, Prison Rape Elimination
Commission, Lansdowne, Virginia................................ 8
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
Responses of Nicholas Katzenbach to questions submitted by
Senator Coburn................................................. 24
Responses of John J. Gibbons to questions submitted by Senator
Coburn......................................................... 28
Responses of Gary Maynard to questions submitted by Senator
Coburn......................................................... 33
Responses of Marc Morial to questions submitted by Senator Coburn 38
Responses of Pat Nolan to questions submitted by Senator Coburn.. 40
Responses of John J. Gibbons, Nicholas Katzenbach, Gary Maynard,
Marc Morial, and Pat Nolan to questions submitted by Senator
Feingold....................................................... 42
Responses of Gary Maynard and Pat Nolan to questions submitted by
Senator Kennedy................................................ 47
SUBMISSIONS FOR THE RECORD
Gibbons, John J., Commission Co-Chairman, and former Chief Judge,
U.S. Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit, Newark, New
Jersey, statement.............................................. 54
Horn, Martin F., Commissioner, New York City Department of
Correction, New York, New York, statement and attachments...... 56
Katzenbach, Nicholas de B., Commission Co-Chairman, and former
U.S. Attorney General, Princeton, New Jersey, statement........ 70
Maynard, Gary D., Commissioner, and Director, Iowa Department of
Corrections, and President-Elect, American Correctional
Association, Des Moines, Iowa, statement....................... 74
Morial, Marc H., Commissioner, and President and Chief Executive
Officer, National Urban League, former Mayor of New Orleans,
and former Louisiana State Senator, New York, New York,
statement...................................................... 76
New York Post, David Seifman, December 21, 2004, article......... 78
New York Times, Paul von Zielbauer, August 22, 2003, article..... 79
Nolan, Pat, Commissioner, and President, Prison Fellowship's
Justice Fellowship, and Member, Prison Rape Elimination
Commission, Lansdowne, Virginia, statement..................... 80
THE FINDINGS AND RECOMMENDATIONS OF THE COMMISSION ON SAFETY AND ABUSE
IN AMERICA'S PRISONS
---------- TH
URSDAY, JUNE 8, 2006
U.S. Senate,
Subcommittee on Corrections and Rehabilitation,
Committee on the Judiciary,
Washington, D.C.
The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 3:01 p.m., in
room SD-226, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Tom Coburn,
Chairman of the Subcommittee, presiding.
Present: Senators Coburn and Durbin.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. TOM COBURN, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE
STATE OF OKLAHOMA
Chairman Coburn. The Committee will come to order. We do
have one more vote, and what we will do is I am going to start
with an opening statement. Senator Durbin is still on the
floor. What I will do is adjourn the hearing after my opening
statement. We will have gotten that out of the way. When we
finish this next vote, which is supposed to be at 3:15, then we
will get rolling.
First of all, I want to thank all our witnesses for being
here and testifying and the effort that they have put forward.
I will not read my statement into the record but, rather, make
it a part of it.
As a practicing physician, one of the things that I know is
what happens in prison affects all of us. It affects us on the
outside because the vast majority of people that experience
incarceration are back among us. And if that is a positive
process, it is great. If it is a negative process, it is
terrible. And so the idea that we have a discussion about what
is good and what is bad is very important for this country.
The second thing I know is that this country has to make a
major change in how it treats drug-addicted felons, non-
violent. The fact is we know with good treatment two out of
every three people who go through a good, qualified drug
treatment program will be free and stay free of dependency.
That is not a strong characteristic of many of our prisons
today throughout the country, and it is something that, if we
really want to make a difference in people's lives, we have to
address.
Another wonderful thing about that is when we do that, we
each save ourselves money because the cost of drug treatment
and incarceration, separate from regular incarceration, is
about one-half to two-thirds the cost of regular incarceration.
So it is my hope that this is the start of a discussion.
I am very appreciative to the Commission for their hard
work. We are not going to take everything at face value. We are
going to look at this hard. And I know Senator Durbin is of the
same mind to look at it and to make recommendations. This will
not be the only hearing that we will have on this subject, and
I am sorry that we are having a hearing at this late date. But
it is, nevertheless, very important, with 2 million people
incarcerated in this country. Some of them are our family
members. Some of them are people that we love. Some are people
that we know of. Some made bad choices. Some continue to make
bad choices.
The final thing I would say is mental health and mental
illness is a significant component of a large number of people
in our prison system today. Mental health parity outside of
prison is something that has to happen in this country because
I believe we could forego lots of the incarcerations if, in
fact, we treated mental health illness as we treat every other
illness in this country. So I am a strong advocate of that, and
I believe that we can accomplish a lot in terms of prevention
in the future for those that could be incarcerated, as well as
better, more up-to-date scientific treatment for those that are
incarcerated today.
With that, I will end my statement. Have they called the
vote? They have not, have they? And I would ask your
forbearance until Senator Durbin gets here. This just happened
today. I apologize. I know there are a lot of people in the
room, but I think we have to hold up. I do not want your
statements prior to Senator Durbin being here, if you would.
And we will adjourn until after the 3:15 vote. So relax.
[Recess 3:05 p.m. to 3:10 p.m.]
Chairman Coburn. The Committee will reconvene. It gives me
great pleasure to recognize my co-Chairman on this
Subcommittee, Senator Durbin from Illinois. I have made an
opening statement. I would recognize you at this time.
STATEMENT OF HON. RICHARD J. DURBIN, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE
STATE OF ILLINOIS
Senator Durbin. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and it
is an honor to be a co-Chairman, which does not happen often
around here. I am honored that you would give me that
opportunity.
I am pleased to have this opportunity to work with you on
the Corrections and Rehabilitation Subcommittee. This is a
first for this Subcommittee and this Congress. It is an
important hearing about a subject we rarely discuss on Capitol
Hill. Most of us in Congress and most Americans do not spend a
lot of time thinking about the conditions in the prisons across
our Nation, but we should. We should because, in the words of
the Commission on Safety and Abuse in America's Prisons, ``What
happens inside jails and prisons does not stay inside jails and
prisons. The conditions in our jails and prisons directly
affect millions of Americans who are incarcerated or work in
the corrections system. They are also indirectly affecting
family members, relatives, and friends. They affect the public
safety and the public health of America.''
As the Russian author Fyodor Dostoyevsky once reflected,
``The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by
entering its prisons.''
I would like to welcome the members of the Commission who
will be presenting their report at this hearing. It reminds us
that we need to judge our civilization from time to time--and
this Commission did so--by entering our prison system. The
Commission spent a year listening to experts across the Nation
and from all viewpoints, covering many aspects of this complex
world of corrections. Now they have laid down a challenge to
all of us: to take a hard look at what is going on in our
prisons.
Most of us take the trash out and put it in the alley. I do
at my home in Springfield. I do not want to know what happens
from that point. I just want to know that after the truck
leaves, the cans are empty and ready for more. We have to view
our prison and incarceration system much differently. People
who are removed from our neighborhoods and our towns and
society because of wrongdoing are coming back. Most of them
will return. And what will they return to? Will they return to
a productive and different life or to the same mistakes that
led to their initial incarceration?
Some say that part of the punishment is to deny them the
most basics--whether it is education, mental health counseling,
whatever it may be--efforts to remove their addictions. And yet
we know that if we do not deal with some of these fundamentals,
they are likely to return to prison. But something else is
likely to occur, too. There is likely to be another crime
committed before that happens, another victim before that
happens. And so it is penny-wise and pound-foolish not to
really look at those in prison as people likely to someday be
free and likely to someday be in our neighborhoods and towns
again.
I am glad Illinois has made prison reform a high priority.
I want to thank our Governor, Rod Blagojevich, for several
innovative programs that he started, such as the creation of
the Model Meth Prison and Reentry Program. We could spend a
whole hearing on meth and what it means to my State and what it
means in terms of incarceration. This new unit, which is going
to be funded from Federal and State sources, is modeled after
other successful programs and many other innovations.
Mr. Chairman, in the interest of time, because the
witnesses have been patient, I would like to ask that the
remainder of my statement be made a matter of record.
Chairman Coburn. Without objection. Thank you, Senator
Durbin.
[The prepared statement of Senator Durbin appears as a
submission for the record.]
Chairman Coburn. Let me introduce our panelists, if I
might. The Honorable John Gibbons is Director of Gibbons, Del
Deo, Dolan, Griffinger & Vecchione, a member of the firm's
litigation department and head of its alternative dispute
resolution group and founder of the Gibbons Fellowship in
Public Interest and Constitutional Law. He was formerly Chief
Judge of the U.S. Court of Appeals, Third Circuit, and a member
of that court for 20 years. He has authored approximately 800
published opinions. He was also formerly a professor of
constitutional law and other subjects at Seton Hall University
Law School. He is Past President of the New Jersey State Bar
Association, a life member of the American Law Institute, and a
fellow of the American Bar Association. He is a former member
of the House of Delegates of the American Bar Association and
former Chair of its Committee on Fair Trial and Free Press, and
also a former Director of the American Arbitration Association.
He is also Trustee Emeritus of the Practicing Law Institute, a
Trustee Emeritus of Holy Cross College, and a Trustee of the
Fund for New Jersey. Welcome.
Nicholas Katzenbach we have known for a long time. A
distinguished career of public service began when he joined the
United States Army Air Force. During the Second World War, he
was captured by enemy troops and spent 2 years as a prisoner of
war in Italy and Germany. After the war, he attended Princeton
University and then Yale Law School, becoming editor-in-chief
of the Yale Law Journal. He also received a Rhodes scholarship
and studied at Oxford University for 2 years. Early in his
legal career, he was Associate Professor of Law at Yale
University and also Professor of Law at the University of
Chicago. He joined the U.S. Justice Department's Office of
Legal Counsel and was promoted to Deputy Attorney General in
April 1962. In that role, and working closely with President
Kennedy, he was responsible for securing the release of
prisoners captured during the Bay of Pigs raid on Cuba. He also
oversaw the Justice Department's efforts to desegregate the
University of Mississippi in September 1962 and the University
of Alabama in June 1963, and worked with Congress to ensure the
passage of the 1964 civil rights legislation. President Johnson
appointed him Attorney General of the United States in 1965,
and he helped to draft the 1965 Voting Rights Act. He then
appointed him Under Secretary of State and one of a three-
member commission charged with reviewing Central Intelligence
activities. He also chaired the 1967 Commission on Crime in the
United States. After President Johnson decided not to run for
re- election, Mr. Katzenbach became General Counsel of the IBM
Corporation, where he remained until 1986. He is currently Non-
Executive Chairman of the MCI Board of Directors.
Gary Maynard I am familiar with. I appreciate him being
here. He is an Oklahoma native. He is Director of the Iowa
Department of Corrections and President-Elect of the American
Correctional Association. He has worked for more than 34 years
in the field of corrections, beginning his career as a
psychologist in El Reno Federal Reformatory in Oklahoma. Before
assuming his position in Iowa, Gary Maynard held similar
positions in the Oklahoma, Arkansas, and South Carolina
corrections systems. He received the Courage and Valor Award
from the Oklahoma Department of Corrections and the Roy Wilkens
Award from the NAACP. For 32 years, he was a member of the Army
National Guard, retiring as Brigadier General. In the course of
his service, he received the Legion of Merit from the United
States Army and is a member of the Hall of Fame of the U.S.
Army Artillery and Missile Officer Candidate School in Fort
Sill, Oklahoma. He has a master's in psychology from Oklahoma
State University. I am an alumnus of that university as well.
Mr. Marc Morial is President and CEO of the National Urban
League, a position he has held since May 2003. Before becoming
head of the Urban League, he served two distinguished 4-year
terms as the mayor of New Orleans, becoming one of the most
popular and effective mayors in the city's history. Under his
leadership, crime plummeted by 60 percent, the police
department was reformed, new programs for youth were begun, and
stagnant economy was re- energized. During that time, he also
served as President of the United States Conference of Mayors
in 2001 and 2002. Prior to becoming mayor of New Orleans, he
served for 2 years in the Louisiana State Senate, where he was
recognized as ``Conservationist Senator of the Year,''
``Education Senator of the Year,'' and ``Legislative Rookie of
the Year''--that is not an honor I am going to get here, I
don't think--for his outstanding accomplishments.
[Laughter.]
Chairman Coburn. He has a J.D. from Georgetown University
Law Center and an Honorary Doctor of Laws degree from Xavier
University.
Pat Nolan is a friend, well-known to me for a long time. He
is President of Justice Fellowship, the reform- oriented
criminal justice arm of Prison Fellowship Ministries. He is the
author of ``When Prisoners Return,'' which describes the
important role the church can play in helping prisoners get
back on their feet after they are released. His opinion pieces
have appeared in numerous periodicals, including the Los
Angeles Times, the National Law Journal, and the Washington
Times. He is a much sought after speaker on issues of justice
and faith. He was selected by Governor Geringer of Wyoming to
be the speaker at his annual prayer breakfast in 2002, and he
has testified on several occasions before Congressional
committees on prison work programs, juvenile justice, and
religious freedom. Earlier in his life, Pat spent 15 years in
the California State Assembly, 4 of those as the Assembly
Republican Leader. He was a leader on crime issues,
particularly on behalf of victims' rights, and was an original
cosponsor of the Victims' Bill of Rights. He was given the
Victims Advocate Award by Parents of Murdered Children and
named Legislator of the Year in part for his work on behalf of
Vietnam veterans. Then as part of an FBI sting operation, he
was prosecuted for a campaign contribution he received and pled
guilty to one count of racketeering. He served 25 months in
Federal prison and 4 months in a halfway house, and that
experience changed the course of his life work forever.
Let me welcome you all, and do you have an order that you
want to talk? I think, Marc Morial, I would love--since you
have a time constraint, I believe if we would allow you to go
first, and then followed by Attorney General Katzenbach. We
just want to accommodate you to make sure that you make that
flight.
Mr. Morial. Train.
Chairman Coburn. Train.
Mr. Morial. Go Amtrak.
STATEMENT OF MARC H. MORIAL, COMMISSIONER, AND PRESIDENT AND
CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, NATIONAL URBAN LEAGUE, FORMER MAYOR OF
NEW ORLEANS, AND FORMER LOUISIANA STATE SENATOR, NEW YORK, NEW
YORK
Mr. Morial. First of all, let me thank you.
Chairman Coburn. Is your mike on, Mr. Morial? Punch the
button on it. Is it on? OK. There we go.
Mr. Morial. Let me thank you, Chairman Coburn and Senator
Durbin. I want to thank you for the opportunity to testify
today, and it has been a great pleasure to be a part of this
very important process.
Corrections is a tough profession and a poorly understood
one. Corrections officers often work long shifts in tense,
overcrowded facilities, without enough backup, support, or
training--stressful conditions that take a toll on them
personally as well as professionally. Many wardens run aging,
understaffed, and outdated facilities and deal with a work
force which experienced officers are likely to leave the
profession for better paying, less stressful jobs just when
they are ready to become good mentors to new recruits. And
those who manage entire systems deal with ever-growing numbers
of prisoners, comparatively fewer resources, and, indeed, for
all of their hard work, corrections professionals receive very
little positive recognition.
These pressures on the labor and leadership of our prisons
and jails cause stress, injury, and illness among the work
force and contribute to a dangerous, very dangerous culture
inside. Because the exercise of power is an important part of
the job of a corrections officer, it is natural that in
situations where officers are under stress, inexperienced, and
undertrained they will be more inclined to abuse that power. In
facilities where the culture has devolved, rules are not
enforced, prisoner-on-prisoner violence is tolerated, and
antagonistic relationships between prisoners and officers often
erupt into overt hostility and physical violence. In many
places, this kind of tension is exacerbated by racial and
cultural differences between prisoners and the staff. This
conflict and violence not only harms staff and prisoners, but
the families and communities that officers and prisoners return
home to as well.
In the 1960's, my home State of Louisiana, by the State
Department of Corrections' own admission, gained a reputation
for running ``America's bloodiest prison,'' Angola, the maximum
security prison in Louisiana. I do not know which prison today
carries that distinction, but I can say with some confidence
that it is no longer Angola State Penitentiary in Louisiana.
Reforms there began decades ago, but the most dramatic changes
were accomplished over the course of the last 10 years when the
fundamental institutional culture of the prison was profoundly
transformed. Prisoners at Angola are treated with dignity and
respect by everyone who works in that facility, and the
prisoners are equally expected to treat staff that way.
Prisoners have been given hope through education and morally
centered programming and responsibility through meaningful
employment. And the fair and reliable enforcement of the rules
for both prisoners and staff means--and I underscore this--less
violence. Prisons that add punishment on top of the sentence--
those that are run in ways that stamp out hope and kill the
spirit of people--will be violent places. In contrast, prisons
that reward the best in those who are incarcerated,
institutions that treat prisoners with basic human dignity and
respect, are much more likely to be places where violence and
abuse are the rare exception and not the rule.
Institutional ``culture change'' may sound like a soft
approach to combating violence behind bars, but this Commission
heard overwhelmingly that when one changes the culture, one
changes the entire institution. There are clear, concrete steps
that every institution can take, and many are taking them, to
create a safer environment for both prisoners and staff.
Congress can support the National Institute of Corrections,
Institutional Culture Initiative that is currently providing
prison and jail managers with tools and training to change the
culture of their institutions. But the NIC cannot do it alone.
Managers and wardens need support at the local, State, and
Federal level to be able to make change over time, and they
need the resources to hire a qualified and diverse staff.
Officers need training that emphasizes ways to resolve conflict
without force and communication skills--particularly the
ability to communicate across cultural, racial, and now
language differences, which are so common in many facilities
across this Nation.
These are just some of the very important recommendations
of this Commission. I hope that today's hearing does not
represent the end of this Commission's work or the end of this
Congress' attention to this matter but, rather, the beginning
as we talk about and we seek to find ways to advance the
important recommendations contained in this report.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Morial appears as a
submission for the record.]
Chairman Coburn. Thank you, Mr. Morial.
General Katzenbach?
STATEMENT OF NICHOLAS DE B. KATZENBACH, COMMISSION CO-CHAIRMAN,
AND FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL, PRINCETON, NEW JERSEY
Mr. Katzenbach. Mr. Chairman, Senator Durbin, it is a real
pleasure to be back before this Committee after all these
years. Although its personnel has changed, it is a wonderful
Committee.
I would not want you to think that my interest in prisons
is new. As Attorney General I brought before this Committee
proposals later enacted into law to ease prisoner reentry into
society and got bipartisan support for their enactment. Indeed,
I remember perhaps the strongest advocate for the attention to
the problems of prisons at that time and to their personnel was
a conservative Republican from Nebraska, Senator Roman Hruska.
It was not then a partisan issue, and in my view it need not be
today. My co-Chair--Judge John Gibbons, a lifelong Republican--
agrees.
My own interest did not begin with my time in the Justice
Department. During World War II, I spent 27 months in Italian
and German prison camps, and while that experience is very
different from being in prison as a result of criminal
activities and convictions, there are some similarities. You
know, until one really experiences it, I think it is hard to
appreciate what the loss of freedom entails: boredom,
frustration, the tedium of idleness, the fear of the unknown
that one cannot control. Most importantly, the need for
enforceable standards and independent oversight of prison
conditions--in that case through the Geneva Convention and the
Swiss Government--cannot be overstated.
When I was in the Department and chaired the Crime
Commission, there were about 200,000 persons in prison. Now
there are more than 10 times that many, and that is just on any
given day. Over the course of a year, the number of Americans
who spend some time in jail or prison exceeds 13.5 million. We
spend more than $60 billion annually on corrections, but
problems of public safety and public health persist.
The Commission chose to focus on problems of safety and
abuse, both within prisons--the safety of both prison officials
and prisoners and the abuse of prisoners by guards and by other
prisoners--and outside prisons, especially in the surrounding
communities where prison officials live and those communities
to which prisoners return. When people live and work in
facilities that are unsafe, unhealthy, unproductive, or
inhumane, they carry those effects home with them.
Over the past year, we investigated these problems by
listening to corrections officials, criminal justice experts,
medical experts, lawyers who litigate for improved conditions,
court-appointed monitors, and prisoners themselves. We found a
surprising amount of agreement among these groups as to the
nature of the problems and as to how they might be solved. For
all the hard work of corrections officials--most of which the
public never hears about--there is still too much violence in
prisons and jails, far too little medical care, a culture which
too often pits officers against prisoners and prisoners against
each other, and far too little support for the men and women
who work in the tiers and pods and for those who run facilities
and entire systems.
It is not only wrong, but it is incredibly shortsighted not
to talk honestly about what is going on behind bars and whether
our approach to incarceration serves our country's best
interests. Our failure to do so puts at ever- increasing danger
the health, safety, and well-being of all of us.
What has personally given me the greatest pleasure and
satisfaction has been the fact that a Commission of 20 persons
from differing backgrounds, experiences, and political
preferences could agree on so many recommendations to deal with
problems of safety and health and fair treatment. Thank you,
Mr. Chairman.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Katzenbach. appears as a
submission for the record.]
Chairman Coburn. Thank you, General. Pat?
Mr. Nolan?
STATEMENT OF PAT NOLAN, COMMISSIONER, AND PRESIDENT, PRISON
FELLOWSHIP'S JUSTICE FELLOWSHIP, AND MEMBER, PRISON RAPE
ELIMINATION COMMISSION, LANSDOWNE, VIRGINIA
Mr. Nolan. Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and Senator Durbin.
Chairman Coburn. Good afternoon. Your mike is not on. Would
you mind punching that little button? There we go.
Mr. Nolan. Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and Senator Durbin.
I am Vice President of Prison Fellowship and the President of
their criminal justice reform arm, Justice Fellowship. In
addition to serving on this Commission, I am also Speaker
Hastert's appointee to the Prison Rape Elimination Commission.
I bring a unique background to this work. As the Chairman
mentioned, I served for 15 years as a member of the California
State Assembly, 4 of those as Assembly Republican Leader. I was
prosecuted for a campaign contribution that I accepted, which
turned out to be part of an FBI sting. I pleaded guilty to one
count of racketeering and served 29 months in Federal custody.
The best way to describe being imprisoned is that I felt
like an amputee. I was cutoff from my friends, my family, my
work, my church, and my community. And then, with my stumps
still bleeding, I was tossed into a roiling cauldron of anger,
bitterness, despair, and often violence.
In prison, inmates are completely defenseless. They are
deprived of the usual ways we protect ourselves. They do not
choose here to sleep or live, they have no choice of their
companions, they cannot avoid going in dark places, and they
are prohibited from arming themselves for self- defense.
Because prisoners are deprived of the ability to defend
themselves, the Government has a responsibility to protect them
from violence and harm. No sentence, no matter how terrible the
crime, includes being threatened, beaten, or raped while in the
custody of the Government.
Sadly, many prisons fail in their responsibility to protect
their inmates and staff from violence. At the Commission's
hearings around the country, we heard many accounts of violence
and abuse behind bars. These were reports not just from
prisoners and their families, but from line officers and
correctional administrators as well. But, on the other hand, we
also heard many accounts of many facilities where prisoners and
staff are healthy and safe. Plainly, there are practices and
policies that make for safer prisons.
The clear consensus among the experts is that to prevent
violence in prison we must: reduce crowding; increase access to
meaningful programs and activities; encourage a climate of
mutual respect between inmates and staff; increase the
transparency of the institutions by increasing accessibility to
outside agencies and volunteers; identify at-risk prisoners and
predators, and classify them accordingly, and separate them;
make better use of surveillance technology; and strengthen
family relationships by placing inmates close to their
families, encouraging family visits, and lowering the cost of
phone calls.
How do we hold administrators of institutions plagued by
violence accountable for adopting the reforms that are proven
to make prisons so much safer? One important way Congress can
help is to develop a uniform system for collecting data on
violence in prison. Currently, there is no way to track the
number of assaults by prisoners on other prisoners, by
prisoners against staff, or the use of excessive force by
corrections officers. This prevents us from comparing levels of
violence in different facilities and systems around the
country, or tracking trends over time. For instance, in the
year 2000, one State with 36,000 prisoners reported just 17
assaults. Three States reported zero assaults among prisoners
statewide. Zero. Now, that just is not credible. And we are
confronting this same issue of the lack of credible statistics
on the Prison Rape Elimination Commission.
Without accurate numbers we cannot hold prison
administrators accountable for the safety of their staff or
inmates. We end up fighting over anecdotes--pitting good
stories against bad ones. More importantly, it means that
successful corrections leaders are not recognized and rewarded,
and that dangerous institutions do not get the attention and
the reform that they so desperately need.
Corrections administrators need accurate information to
monitor safety, and the public needs it to hold them
accountable.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Nolan appears as a
submission for the record.]
Chairman Coburn. Thank you, Mr. Nolan.
Mr. Maynard, on behalf of Senator Grassley, he had every
intention of being here and had a schedule change at the last
moment, so I am offering you his regrets for not being here,
and you are recognized for 5 minutes.
STATEMENT OF GARY D. MAYNARD, COMMISSIONER, AND DIRECTOR, IOWA
DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS, AND PRESIDENT-ELECT, AMERICAN
CORRECTIONAL ASSOCIATION, DES MOINES, IOWA
Mr. Maynard. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Senator Durbin.
I am the Director of the Iowa Department of Corrections and
President-Elect of the American Correctional Association, but I
am not speaking for those organizations today. I am here
speaking as a member of this Commission. I want to discuss the
medical and mental health issues in our prisons and jails and
bring to your attention the reality I see in facilities across
the country. We know how to secure prisoners behind walls, but
the physical and mental health problems they bring with them
are not so easily secured. These health problems quickly become
problems for corrections officers, for other prisoners, and for
surrounding communities. And the burden of solving these
problems cannot rest solely with State and local correctional
agencies.
Prisoners are probably the least healthy group of
Americans. They are ill with some of the most destructive
diseases--ranging from diabetes to HIV, hepatitis C, and
tuberculosis--and at far higher rates than other Americans.
Every year, as many as a million and a half people are released
from jail and prison to our communities carrying a potentially
life-threatening infectious disease. In California, a Federal
judge recently appointed a receiver to run the prison medical
system after learning that every 6 or 7 days a prisoner dies
unnecessarily from inadequate medical care.
And correctional facilities are filled with people who have
a mental illness. At least 16 percent, or 350,000, and maybe
twice that number, are mentally ill. You have heard it said
many times over because it is true: prisons and jails have
become America's de facto psychiatric hospitals. I am not here
to tell you that the mentally ill prisoners should not be held
accountable. I am just saying that prisons and jails--try as we
might--are not good places to help people cope with or recover
from serious mental illness. In facilities around the country
today, we are struggling to deal effectively with mentally ill
prisoners. And we are releasing mentally ill prisoners without
the necessary supply of medications and without any clear
pathway to treatment. That threatens public safety and almost
guarantees that those individuals will fail, commit new crimes,
and reincarcerated.
These are difficult problems, but they are not without
solutions. We need real partnerships between correctional
agencies, departments of public health, and health care
providers working in the community. The health care challenges
in prisons and jails are public health problems, and they
demand public health solutions. We have come to a point where
the doctors in some prisons and jails practice under licenses
that restrict their work to correctional settings. They would
not be permitted to provide care to you or me. Congress should
find ways to encourage public health partnerships because they
have been demonstrated to work and help correctional facilities
hire only fully qualified medical staff.
When we must incarcerate someone who is mentally ill, we
need properly trained and caring staff to treat the person's
illness. And we must avoid isolating mentally ill prisoners in
high-security segregation units where their mental state
deteriorates and their suffering increases.
Money alone will not guarantee these crucial reforms, but
without adequate funding for correctional health care, we have
no hope for real change. Some correctional systems ration
services by requiring prisoners to pay to see a nurse or
doctor. Correctional systems that require medical co- pays by
prisoners risk the spread of disease and the potentially high
cost of delaying necessary care in exchange for a small cost
savings. The Federal Government, along with State and local
governments, should end the use of medical co-pays in
correctional facilities. It will take tremendous political will
to make that change, and the shift is much more likely to occur
if we can also increase the financial resources available to
States to pay for medical care in prisons and jails.
One of the most important contributions Congress can make
to improve the public health of this country is by changing
Federal law so that correctional health care providers--just
like every other public health care provider--can be reimbursed
by Medicaid and Medicare. If I ran a public hospital system
rather than a correctional health system, my facilities would
be entitled to Federal reimbursement for the medical and mental
health care we provide to persons who are low-income or
elderly. The public health depends on seeing prisons and jails
as part of the public health system. Medicaid reimbursement is
a key part of that system. We have a responsibility to provide
decent health care to people who are not free to seek medical
care on their own.
In conclusion, in over 30 years of working in corrections,
this opportunity to participate with the Commission on Safety
and Abuse in America's Prisons has been the best opportunity
for others and me in my profession to have a public voice, and
we thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Maynard appears as a
submission for the record.]
Chairman Coburn. Thank you, Mr. Maynard.
Judge Gibbons, welcome. I have seen a lot of you lately at
different hearings. Welcome. Please share with us, if you
would.
STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN J. GIBBONS, COMMISSION CO- CHAIRMAN, AND
FORMER CHIEF JUDGE, U.S. COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE THIRD
CIRCUIT, NEWARK, NEW JERSEY
Judge Gibbons. Chairman Coburn and Senator Durbin, I would
like to--
Chairman Coburn. Turn your mike on.
Judge Gibbons. I would like to first apologize for my
health problem. I am coughing. Is it on?
Chairman Coburn. Now it is. Thank you.
Judge Gibbons. I would like to reiterate what General
Katzenbach said at the outset of this hearing: ensuring safe
and humane and productive prisons and jails is not, and must
not be, a partisan matter.
Witness after witness before our Commission spoke of the
closed nature of prisons and jails and the danger to the health
and safety of all of us when there is insufficient oversight. A
former prison warden told us: ``When we are not held
accountable, the culture inside the prison becomes a place that
is so foreign to the culture of the real world that we develop
our own way of doing things.'' Our jails and prisons require
the sort of external oversight systems that we demand for every
important public institution, be it our public hospitals, our
public schools, or our publicly traded corporations.
Too few U.S. correctional systems are monitored by an
independent Government body with enough authority and funding
to regularly inspect conditions of confinement and to report
findings to lawmakers and the public. Now, the Federal
Government has an excellent model. The Office of Inspector
General within the Department of Justice inspects Federal
correctional facilities and answers to the Attorney General and
Congress, rather than to the Bureau of Prisons. The office does
an admirable job in maintaining its independence, and everyone,
from the Bureau of Prisons to the public, benefits as a result.
Congress, exercising the authority conferred on it by the 14th
Amendment, should actively support a similarly independent and
strong authority in every State.
The Federal courts have played a historic role in watching
over America's prisons and jails, shedding light on and
remedying many of the most dangerous conditions and abuses.
Indeed, we heard from a number of corrections professionals
that they welcome--and sometimes quietly invite--lawsuits: they
are often the only way to shake free the resources needed to
make prisons safe and effective. The courts' role in prison
oversight should in no way be impaired.
The Department of Justice's activity in overseeing
correctional facilities, through civil rights investigations
and litigation, has diminished significantly in recent years.
In fiscal years 2003 and 2004 combined, the Department of
Justice's Special Litigation Section initiated only six
investigations and filed only one civil case in Federal court
addressing conditions in prisons and jails. This diminished
activity is not the result of diminution of the problems in our
penal institutions.
The Prison Litigation Reform Act of 1996 brought down by
nearly half the number of Federal cases by prisoners alleging
constitutional violations. Now, in part, that was the Prison
Litigation Reform Act goal--to reduce what were deemed to be
frivolous lawsuits. But the PLRA has proven to be a crude
weapon: meritorious lawsuits are suppressed at a greater rate
than non-meritorious ones. The Commission recommends that the
PLRA be amended to ensure that those individuals who suffer
some of the worst abuses like rape, medical neglect, and
physical violence have a meaningful way to achieve
accountability.
First, Congress should eliminate the requirement in the
statute which bars the courthouse to prisoners, such as victims
of sexual assault, unless they can prove a physical injury.
Second, Congress must eliminate provisions that discourage
prisoners from going to court and from having lawyers when they
do go to court, such as the filing fee for indigent prisoners
and the restrictions on attorneys' fees.
Third, Congress should remove provisions that discourage
consent decrees, such as the requirement that correctional
agencies concede liability as a prerequisite to a settlement.
And, finally, Congress should relax the ``exhaustion
rule,'' which requires prisoners to fully exhaust all
administrative processes, regardless of whether those processes
are actually meaningful. As some courts have interpreted it,
the PLRA bars the courthouse forever when a prisoner misses a
single administrative deadline.
We must hold out a genuine hope for humane treatment in our
prisons and jails and be willing to let courts and other
institutions shed light on how we treat the millions of people
we incarcerate and the hundreds of thousands who work inside
the corrections institutions. The Commission on Safety and
Abuse and the Vera Institute look forward to an ongoing dialog
on these issues with Members of the United States Congress.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Judge Gibbons appears as a
submission for the record.]
Chairman Coburn. I thank each of you for your input. I have
been through the report and found it very interesting. I am
going to ask each of you to--I see this divided into three
areas. There is a Federal responsibility, there are certainly
State responsibilities, and then there is the organizational
responsibilities of the institutions that certify and evaluate
prison practices.
Could each of you go to each of those three areas? What is
the No. 1 thing you see that the Federal Government ought to be
active in? You have pretty well outlined what you think, Judge
Gibbons, but Federal, then State, and then associational. In
other words, as we start to look at this, what is the most
important? I think both Senator Durbin and I have a keen
interest in seeing some changes take place. But as you see it,
General Katzenbach, what is the No. 1 priority that should be
there for Federal? What is the No. 1 priority for State? And
what is the No. 1 priority for the associations?
Mr. Katzenbach. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for such a simple
question.
[Laughter.]
Chairman Coburn. I am trying to make this easy. I am a
doctor.
Mr. Katzenbach. I think as far as the Federal Government is
concerned, I think the No. 1 priority in my view would be the
modeling that it can do and the help that it can serve in
assisting those people in the States that really want to run a
better prison. And you have that in the academy, which is like
the FBI Academy, and I think it needs more help on that. And I
think that would be a major part, and the other part I think is
also what it can do as far as health is concerned, which is
such a big problem and a very expensive problem. And I
recognize the difficulties of that.
As far as the States are concerned, I think the single most
important problem is getting people who are willing to try to
change the culture within those prisons, and I think that
really requires an effective oversight system. Now, it may be
that the Federal Government can help on oversight as well, but
I think the States should be creating effective oversight
because that opens the doors and it gives--you know, keeping it
secret, keeping it quiet only helps those who are not doing
anything good, who want to keep what is going on out of the
public eye. I think the good people can take advantage of
oversight, and I think that is the most important thing from
the State's point of view.
I have forgotten what your third one was, frankly.
Chairman Coburn. It was the association, American
Correctional--
Mr. Katzenbach. Well, I think they have done some very good
jobs in terms of establishing standards. The difficulty is that
there are more words in it than there is reality, and that is,
again, an oversight question. It is a question of putting--they
have done tremendous work under tremendous difficult
circumstances, and it is very valuable work. And I think it is
up to the States and to private groups as well to try to make
that much more of a reality than I think it presently is in
terms of not very many prisons are, in fact, approved,
certified by them. And that would be a big help, to have more
of those people, if you really had a good system for inspecting
and for measuring. That is about as good as I can do.
Chairman Coburn. That is very good. Thank you.
Pat Nolan, please.
Mr. Nolan. Yes, Senator, I think at the Federal level I
think uniform standards, reporting standards of statistics is
just crucial. There just are at the present time a patchwork of
statistics, and it ends up, you know, with us fighting over
anecdotes. So I think having that baseline so you can compare.
I also think just the bully pulpit that you folks have, the
opening statements of both of you, if we could just try to get
the public to realize this is all of our problem, it is not
just an in-prison problem--Senator Durbin's statement about the
trash. Frankly, as a legislator, I frankly thought, Sent them
to prison, we can forget about them. And that was a big mistake
that I made. These people are coming out. And also, as a
religious person, our brothers and sisters, we have to care
about them. They have lives. They are children of God, too. So
I think alerting the community to what is at risk, you can
play--like holding this hearing is a tremendous step forward.
As far as the States go, I absolutely believe that
oversight and changing the culture to one of respect and caring
about the future. And, you know, the State of California does
not have--you know, the ACA has terrific standards. The State
of California just ignores them. In fact, the ACA meeting was
picketed by the guards' union in California because they
advocated standards in California. That is just, you know, my
former home State, but there needs to be some move on the State
level to say we will have our prisons pass muster by these
standards the ACA has developed so carefully.
And you asked for one, but I would add another, and that is
the funding of medical and mental health. The pot is empty for
them, and their lives are totally dependent on the prison
authorities for their care. You do not have the option--
Chairman Coburn. Well, let me go to my State. My state has
$1 billion that they are trying to figure out how to spend
right now. Why is that not a State responsibility in a State
prison?
Mr. Nolan. Oh, well, I agree, except that as Mr. Maynard
pointed out, all the public institutions--the poor and the
elderly are entitled to Medicaid reimbursement except if they
are in prison.
Chairman Coburn. Well, they are also entitled to vote
except if they are in prison. So the question I have for you
is: Is that a Federal responsibility to supply health care to
States when the States are running surpluses and could, in
fact, take care of the health of their prisoners?
Mr. Nolan. You know, first of all, the first responsibility
is on the State, but the first responsibility is on the State
not to send mentally ill people to prison. You know, we have
incarcerated so many of the people that are mentally ill, and
they are crying--you know, it becomes a slippery slope. They
are arrested for worshipping the newspaper rack in front of
Denny's, and literally in L.A. County they call it ``mercy
bookings.'' Mercifully, they take them off the street, but the
place they take them is jail because there are no acute care
beds for them and the L.A. County Hospital will not accept
them. So they end up in jail. The L.A. Sheriff runs the largest
mental health facility in the world. And the deputies don't
want--these people are sick. They are not criminals. And yet
then they have a record, and it just escalates from there.
So the State could not save money, but the money would be
better spent treating them in acute mental health beds, get
them stabilized on their meds, not in prison making criminals
out of them, and, frankly, putting them at risk because they
are abused. I saw it. I saw the abuse of these mentally ill
people by the other prisoners. They are taken advantage of, and
it makes a correctional administrator's job virtually
impossible to be dealing with criminals, but also mentally ill
people.
Chairman Coburn. Mr. Maynard?
Mr. Maynard. Mr. Chairman, I think as we have been talking,
the medical and the mental health issues are areas that States
are not able to deal with. I think there needs to be some
Federal support into the medical costs. The medical costs are
rising tremendously, as are the pharmaceutical costs. And when
those costs rise, they have to be met because of the law and
just for doing the right thing, and money comes out of
operations, which reduces staffing and so on. I think the
Bureau of Justice Statistics, funding them to do more data
collection, more research. The National Institute of
Corrections, funding them, they do excellent training for
corrections. They have for years. They are limited funding. I
think that would be most helpful.
As far as States, I am not sure other than what States are
doing now. I think if they had overall guidance, I think they
would probably do a better job.
Organizational responsibilities, I think the accreditation
process--I have been involved in accreditation of corrections
for over 25 years, and I have seen the organization as a whole
across the country improve because of the work of people to try
to meet certain standards. And without those standards, they do
not. We have about less than half of the prisons in the country
are accredited. That was not the case 15 years ago. And that
has all been a voluntary movement on the part of corrections
professionals. I think we should really support that effort
that people are doing voluntarily.
Chairman Coburn. Judge Gibbons, you pretty well summarized
the Federal side of that. Anything to say about the State side
or the associational side?
Judge Gibbons. Well, one thing I can say about the States
is that they will react to Federal prodding.
Chairman Coburn. I already got your message.
[Laughter.]
Judge Gibbons. If the Federal Government establishes
standards, the States will have to comply with them, whether at
State expense or otherwise. One particular problem that jumps
out at me when I go to these prison facilities--it is
essentially a State problem--is that they are dealing with an
aging population and that the cost of health care particularly
for that aging population is becoming a staggering burden.
There are institutions where internally they are training
prisoners to run hospice centers for the dying because the
population is so old.
Now, Senator, you said, well, isn't that a State
responsibility? Why should Medicaid take care of some of those
expenses? Well, you could say that about the whole Medicaid
program. What is the justification for carving out of a Federal
health program this very vulnerable aging population that has
expensive medical care? Or else they are just going to die.
But I think what my essential message is, Federal standards
for the operation of correctional facilities will inevitably
improve the situation.
Chairman Coburn. Thank you. I want to give plenty of time
to Senator Durbin. I just want to come back and talk on that
issue a little bit on recidivism rates, because that is the key
to a lot of this cost.
Senator Durbin. Let me just say that I have been in the
Senate for 10 years, on this Committee for 8 years. To my
memory, this is the second time we have ever had a hearing on
corrections. On the Senate Judiciary Committee, the second
time. We do not want to talk about this. It goes back to Mr.
Nolan's point and the one I made earlier. Take these dangerous
people away and do not tell us anything about it. Keep the
costs low and don't talk about it, please. You know, they are
paying a price, and they do not deserve a second thought.
Yet the reports suggest 95 percent are coming out, will be
released. I do not know what current recidivism rates are. Does
anybody have a current number?
Mr. Nolan. It is about 66 percent stay there for 20 years.
Senator Durbin. So two out of three of those released are
headed back. So the obvious question that I raised in my
opening statement is: Is there an intervention with that
incarceration that can stop the second crime from being
committed, the second victim from being created? And it strikes
me--and I thought about this when I worked at the State level
and the Federal level. One of the things going in, there are
just a myriad of problems that have created the criminal mind.
One of them is lack of self-esteem. And what I read in your
report, not at length but certainly good reference, is that the
educational courses in prisons have been diminished
dramatically. It used to be that you would go to prison and
pick up a skill or a GED, and I take it from what you say here
that that is not the case very often anymore. And so they are
emerging from prison with few skills, if any.
I might just give a salute to Congressman Danny Davis of
Illinois, who has focused more on this issue than any
Congressman I know, because the West Side of Chicago, because
of all the great faith-based operations there, has many more
returning incarcerated people than other places. But the point
he has found and I have found is that, absent some new skill or
education, they return to the streets in the same or worsened
condition. They have sharpened their criminal skills, but no
other skills, and their criminal connections.
Second, you have people with mental illness, and, Mr.
Maynard, you made the point that my Director of Corrections
made in Illinois, that he had no idea that he was getting into
the business of running a mental health institution, which he
is. And the numbers, from 16 to 54 percent, suggest the
magnitude of this issue and how inhumane it is for us to take
people who are ill and to put them in this vulnerable
predicament. We would no more think of taking an innocent
person suffering from a disease and abandoning them on an
island for a long period of time to fend for themselves than we
would--than we should in this situation. And so that lack of
mental counseling, mental health counseling and help really
makes a significant difference. And then the physical illnesses
and diseases, whether they were sick going into the prison, a
million and a half come out each year sick, if I heard the
testimony correctly, with serious and communicable diseases.
And now let's move to the issue of addiction. If you are an
addictive person with an addictive mind and an addictive
temperament going in a prison, what is the likelihood that you
will be cured of that during your incarceration? Slim to none,
I think, and sadly there still are narcotics coming into prison
to deal with this.
So now it comes back in our direction. Federal and State
legislative leaders, as well as executive leaders, are we
prepared to face the public criticism of putting resources into
prisons that we have just described-- education, mental
counseling, health care, dealing with addictions, saying to the
public, if we don't spend the money here, you may be the next
victim when they are released?
Now, Mr. Nolan, you have been in this business. This is a
tough political task. There were times not too long ago when we
were debating whether or not to even give exercise equipment to
prisoners because it was ``a reward,'' or let them watch
television, another ``reward.'' So let me ask you: Come to our
world for a moment here and talk about this. Mr. Maynard?
Mr. Maynard. Senator Durbin, the Federal Government has
supported the reentry projects throughout the country, and they
are going to prove to be effective in helping people stay out
of prison when they get out, and that is going to prove to be
cost-effective for the system. There is no question about it.
And there are programs, in addition to education, but drug
treatment programs, we have found that--we first thought that
meth treatment was not going to be effective, and we were all
concerned about it. But we have pretty well proven that there
is effective treatment for meth addiction.
Anger management, some of the domestic abuse issues, people
who are in treatment are less likely to reoffend in those
cases.
Senator Durbin. How common is that in the correctional
setting?
Mr. Maynard. We have, of course, the drug treatment; we
have sex offender treatment; we have the--
Senator Durbin. Are you talking about one State or
nationwide?
Mr. Maynard. I am talking about one State right now, but I
was just going to relate to--I think the majority of the State
systems have those kinds of programs, but they continually
fight to--when budget cuts come, education, unfortunately, is
something I have seen that typically gets cut, chaplains and
education and training.
Senator Durbin. Isn't that the No. 1 indicator on
recidivism--education?
Mr. Maynard. It is a strong one. People that come to prison
that could not read and write and learn to read and write in
prison, they are, according to the research, three times less
likely to come back to prison. And the same way with GED, if
they do not have a GED, and they get it--it is the self-esteem
you talked about--they are less likely to come back to prison.
So those programs are cost-effective, and today, one thing that
is encouraging is that most States are starting to look at
evidence-based practices, where we--in fact, in Iowa, my budget
is predicated on being able to prove that if we are given these
resources, we will cause a reduction in recidivism, we will
cause these people to do better and not come back. So a lot of
States are starting to move in that direction, and I think that
is the kind of data that you can take to constituents and say
here is why we do this, it makes sense.
Senator Durbin. Good. The results orientation.
Mr. Maynard. Yes, sir.
Senator Durbin. I think that is good.
Can I address another issue which you touched on in this
report but I want to ask for a little amplification? I bring
this up at hearings from time to time. These statistics are
old, but I do not think they are out of date. I think they are
still largely true, and it is about drug crimes and the people
who commit them and the people who are incarcerated because of
them.
African Americans comprise about 12 percent of America's
population, but about a third of the drug arrests and about 65
percent of the drug incarcerations are African Americans. There
is clearly an injustice built into those statistics.
You in your report discuss diversity in terms of
correctional officers. I am glad that you speak to the issue of
correctional officers. I know a lot of them. It is not an easy
job, and my hat is off to them because they do not get paid
well, as you also note, and they risk their lives to keep peace
in these correctional settings.
But address for a moment this diversity issue as to whether
or not the correctional officers reflect the diversity of the
people that they are watching and whether there is an empathy
there that does not exist because of it, because of this
disconnect.
Mr. Maynard. I could just say that--
Senator Durbin. I am sorry Mr. Morial is not here or Hilary
Shelton, who I know was also part of your Commission. But if
you would--
Mr. Maynard. I think it varies a little bit from State to
State. I know my experience has been we typically have had more
African-Americans in prison than an equivalent ratio of staff.
Historically, prisons have been built in remote places, in
rural areas, and typically been more white, a rural atmosphere,
and difficult to recruit minorities to work in prisons from
those areas. That has been the history.
Senator Durbin. Did you find any correlation to the conduct
at a prison relative to good time, as to whether or not
prisoners were rewarded with good time for a certain time
served? I know that the State transfer used to be much closer
to one-to-one in Illinois. I don't know what it is today. But
the Federal is much different. It is 1 day for 1 month, I
believe.
Is there any correlation between the conduct of prisoners
and the good time that allows them to reduce their ultimate
sentence?
Mr. Maynard. I would think so. Most States have systems
that give credits for work or credits for program completion.
They give time off a sentence, either work time or good time.
Senator Durbin. But you would not know nationwide or
through the correctional system whether that has an impact on
what prison life is like?
Mr. Maynard. I think so. Yes, sir. I think it would have an
impact on encouraging positive behavior, yes, sir.
Senator Durbin. Mr. Nolan, you talked about vulnerable
people in prisons, and you mentioned the mentally ill. Are
there other vulnerable populations in prisons?
Mr. Nolan. Yes. In fact, the Prison Rape Commission has had
on sexual violence quite a bit of testimony. People of slight
builds, people with effeminate characteristics, people that are
homosexual are viewed as targets.
Senator Durbin. Does age have anything to do with this?
Mr. Nolan. Oh, yes, definitely, and the trend to housing
juveniles in adult facilities is troubling. They are by nature
vulnerable, and so we think it is important that on entrance
those factors be looked into.
In fact, I was meeting with the management team of the Los
Angeles County jail system. They just had the riots and several
deaths there. And I said, you know, ``You really need to
classify these.'' And the head of operations said, ``Oh, we
do.'' And then the head of training said, ``Well, we only
classify them as a danger to us, not to each other.'' You know,
it was a revelation that even with them they had not even
thought about that factor.
If I could answer a previous one, as politicians, one of
the things that is important that we emphasize is these things
are not for the prisoners. This is for safer communities and
fewer victims, as you said. That is the bottom line, and we
need to hold everybody accountable. I learned this from one of
my colleagues, a liberal in the legislature, John Vasconsellos,
who changed the name of the Committee on Criminal Justice to
Committee on Public Safety. And I said, ``John, that is typical
liberal nonsense,'' you know. And he said, ``No, no, Pat.'' He
said, ``If we call it the Committee on Criminal Justice, the
members and staff will view it as our job as building a
stronger criminal justice system.'' He said, ``That system does
not exist for stronger prisons. It exists to keep the public
safer, and we have to hold it accountable for that. And if we
change the language of discussion to public safety, how do we
reduce the risk of harm to people?''
So I would say, as far as your question about good time,
there is no one-on-one correlation of that. It is really a
changed life. Have we changed their value system, their
structure? Have we changed them but for a very self- centered
focus, to realizing that there is something more important than
them, that the community and we believe God, you know, is more
important. And if you change their focus of their life so it is
not just focused on ``gimme, gimme, gimme,'' then a lot of
other things fall into place.
I think there are several factors, and I need to make
clear: recidivism, the 66 percent is rearrested within 3 years
of release. The reincarceration rate is 52 percent, so that is
a distinction.
Senator Durbin. Still, that is high.
Mr. Nolan. So it is still high, but it is the rearrest that
is 66 percent. But if we have meaningful relationships with
healthy, moral people--Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., said, ``To
change someone, you must first love them, and they must know
that you love them.'' And programs cannot love people. People
can. So the more people we have actually making a difference,
the greater the density of loving moral people we pack around
them, the better the chance they will make it.
The second thing is job preparation, and I would commend to
you the chief probation officer in St. Louis has set up a
fabulous job, absolutely sensational. I could not design a
better job on this, and he got the permission of the chief
judge there, and the unemployment rate of the people under his
jurisdiction is lower than the unemployment rate in St. Louis
itself. That is working, it is changing lives, and it involves
the community.
The third thing is a safe place to live. You know, people
do not think about it, but, you know, when you are in prison,
you have people guarding you. There is a violence there, but
when you are out on the street, you know, where do you sleep at
night? If you are sleeping under a bridge or in a park, you are
vulnerable. And so having a safe place where they can live is
important. Yet most neighborhoods do not want ex-offenders
there, so we need to deal with that.
And the fourth thing is treating addictions, and,
unfortunately, a lot of systems play ``okey-doke'' with that. I
was at the Virginia Reentry Committee meeting, task force
meeting, and I said that less than 10 percent of inmates get
treatment for addiction before they are released and that is a
reality. And so one of the directors of Virginia said, ``Well,
we have drug treatment in every prison.'' Well, he is begging
the question. Yes, they have drug treatment, but only a tiny
fraction of the prisoners get it that need it. So having it in
prisons is different than making sure everybody with an
addictive personality has the treatment to help them, to teach
them the coping mechanisms to deal with that aspect of their
life.
And then one other thing, so many of the programs--for the
10 percent that do get treatment, after they are released, they
have to wait in the queue to get community treatment, 6 to 8
months before they get into a community treatment. Well, if you
have that discontinuity, you lose all the benefit.
So I would say those are the major things, but the key
thing is relationship more than programs. We focus on programs.
But it is linking them with good, moral people that are making
it in life and that care about them.
Senator Durbin. Nothing works better than to have someone
who cares.
Judge, a last question the Chairman has been kind enough to
allow me to ask. Talking about loving people, let's talk about
lawyers.
[Laughter.]
Chairman Coburn. I believe that doctors think they are the
least lovable.
Senator Durbin. I know.
You appealed to our sense of fairness and justice, saying
that those incarcerated should be able to have a day in court
or a hearing or a review if they are being mistreated. Now, we
also know that many of these prisoners have access to great law
libraries and maybe computers these days--I am not sure--and
file extensive briefs to the court about all sorts of things,
some of which are meritorious, and some are not. All of them
are not Mr. Gideon of Gideon v. Wainwright, and many of them
tax the system.
Is there a way, is there a screen or a method to give
justice where there is none today and yet not open the system
up to the idle filings of those who are seeking attention
beyond what they deserve?
Judge Gibbons. Well, there are ways. They have been
operating for many, many years. We really did not need the PLRA
to screen out frivolous cases. Federal judges were doing it
regularly without the inhibitions that have now been placed in
the path of often very meritorious prisoner cases. The problem
with Federal judges getting rid of frivolous litigation to me
has always been greatly exaggerated.
Diverting from the subject matter of this hearing, now the
big complaint is that Federal resources are being frivolously
diverted to handling immigration appeals. And if the solution
to the immigration crisis is to impose on asylum seekers these
bars that have been imposed on prisoner litigation, that is
going to be counterproductive.
Chairman Coburn. I want to make sure everybody--I am very
proud of what is, as a matter of fact, a lot of what you
started, Mr. Maynard, in Oklahoma, and I want to read into the
record some positive things that are happening in Oklahoma,
because I think they lend credence to what this report says.
Oklahoma is going to open an acute-care, 262- bed facility for
our elderly prisoners and those with chronic and debilitating
diseases. We have the Bill Johnson Correctional Center, which
is a premier drug treatment center. That is all it does,
prisoners with drug treatment.
We have over 10,000 volunteers working in our prisons in
Oklahoma, mentoring and assisting. And the history of Oklahoma
is we were under court supervision at one time, and through
great leadership and attention to it, that has changed.
In Oklahoma, we have four areas of oversight, which I think
are interesting. The Office of State Finance oversights it.,
the Fire Marshal oversights it, the Department of Health
oversights it, and the Attorney General oversights it. So we
have four separate oversights, as well as the legislature in
terms of doing that.
So I think the results of Federal intervention have borne
some great fruit, and Oklahoma is going to do better, and we
know that. We have a tremendous problem in terms of paying our
staff appropriately and recognizing those needs.
Judge Gibbons, you mentioned the meritorious versus the
non-meritorious, the data on that. Could you reference that to
my Committee staff if we send you a letter on that in terms of
the cases and the filings? You said that the meritorious have
been blocked and the non-meritorious have not, and I would just
like to have that information as we look at the PRLA.
Judge Gibbons. We will respond.
Chairman Coburn. Thank you.
One of the things that was cited--I served as a jail doctor
for 4 years as the Muskogee County Jail, and there was no
question that some prisoners had significant needs. But how do
you balance--if you do not even have a little, small co-pay,
what we found is they did not want--all they had to do was
complain of an illness, and they got out of the work detail
that day. And, of course, when I was there seeing them, they
were not ill. They were ill from work. So there has to be some
balance in terms of your recommendations of how we do not get a
secondary motivation for illness to display a requirement in
that. And I know that you all have thought of that, and we will
send you all these questions. We would love to have your
individual responses on how we balance that so that we do not
influence it inappropriately.
There is a good balance that should not require a
significant cost but still cost something, which is the same
problem we have in our own health care system. We have
tremendous overutilization in a lot of areas because there is
not an appropriate skin in the game. So there has got to be an
answer to that, and I will not spend any more time on that.
I would just relate that we will be sending several sets of
questions to each of you, if you would try to respond to those
within 2 to 3 weeks.
I would commit to you, I am interested in us making a
difference, one, in terms of treatment of mental health. As a
physician, one out of every three patients I see as a primary
care doctor, it is a mental health issue. One in three.
No. 2, drug treatment we know works. We have to incentivize
that. We have to pray for the rewards of that.
No. 3, health care. We have got to--we do not have to just
fix health care problems in our prison. We have to fix health
care in America. We cannot afford what we are doing now. We are
going to spend $2.3 trillion this year. We cannot afford it.
And one out of three dollars does not go to help anybody get
well. So we have got to work on that, and I think your
suggestions have merit, and we need to look at how we do that.
Then, finally, how do we incentivize to raise the level of
compensation and professionalism within our prisons so that we
meet the requirements that put forward something similar to
what Pat Nolan has--how do you be a supervisor in a prison and
love your prisoners? I mean, that is where we really want to
be, because if that is felt and seen, it is modeled, and it
changes lives.
Senator Durbin, anything else?
Senator Durbin. No. Thank you.
Chairman Coburn. I want to thank each of you for being
here. We will discuss among ourselves where we go with followup
on this, and I appreciate your time and your testimony. Thank
you very much. The record will be kept open for additional
statements for 1 week.
The Committee is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 4:15 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]
[Questions and answers and submissions for the record
follow.]
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