<DOC> [105 Senate Hearings] [From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access] [DOCID: f:48113.wais] S. Hrg. 105-564 A FREE MARKET APPROACH TO FEDERAL CONTRACTING: THE FAIR COMPETITION ACT OF 1998 AND THE COMPETITION IN COMMERCIAL ACTIVITIES OF 1998 ======================================================================= JOINT HEARING before the SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT OF GOVERNMENT MANAGEMENT, RESTRUCTURING, AND THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA of the COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS UNITED STATES SENATE AND THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT MANAGE- MENT, INFORMATION, AND TECHNOLOGY OF THE COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED FIFTH CONGRESS SECOND SESSION ---------- MARCH 24, 1998 ---------- Serial No. 105-140 ---------- Printed for the use of the Committee on Governmental Affairs and the Committee on Government Reform and Oversight <snowflake> U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 48-113 cc WASHINGTON : 1998 _______________________________________________________________________ For sale by the U.S. Government Printing Office, Superintendent of Documents, Congressional Sales Office, Washington, DC 20402 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS FRED THOMPSON, Tennessee, Chairman WILLIAM V. ROTH, Jr., Delaware JOHN GLENN, Ohio TED STEVENS, Alaska CARL LEVIN, Michigan SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, Connecticut SAM BROWNBACK, Kansas DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii PETE V. DOMENICI, New Mexico RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois THAD COCHRAN, Mississippi ROBERT G. TORRICELLI, New Jersey DON NICKLES, Oklahoma MAX CLELAND, Georgia ARLEN SPECTER, Pennsylvania Hannah S. Sistare, Staff Director and Counsel Leonard Weiss, Minority Staff Director Lynn L. Baker, Chief Clerk ------ SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT OF GOVERNMENT MANAGEMENT, RESTRUCTURING, AND THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA SAM BROWNBACK, Kansas, Chairman WILLIAM V. ROTH, Jr., Delaware JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, Connecticut ARLEN SPECTER, Pennsylvania MAX CLELAND, Georgia Michael Rubin, Staff Director Laurie Rubenstein, Minority Staff Director and Chief Counsel Esmeralda Amos, Chief Clerk ------ COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT DAN BURTON, Indiana, Chairman BENJAMIN A. GILMAN, New York HENRY A. WAXMAN, California J. DENNIS HASTERT, Illinois TOM LANTOS, California CONSTANCE A. MORELLA, Maryland ROBERT E. WISE, Jr., West Virginia CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Connecticut MAJOR R. OWENS, New York STEVEN SCHIFF, New Mexico EDOLPHUS TOWNS, New York CHRISTOPHER COX, California PAUL E. KANJORSKI, Pennsylvania ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida GARY A. CONDIT, California JOHN M. McHUGH, New York CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York STEPHEN HORN, California THOMAS M. BARRETT, Wisconsin JOHN L. MICA, Florida ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, Washington, THOMAS M. DAVIS, Virginia DC DAVID M. McINTOSH, Indiana CHAKA FATTAH, Pennsylvania MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland JOE SCARBOROUGH, Florida DENNIS J. KUCINICH, Ohio JOHN B. SHADEGG, Arizona ROD R. BLAGOJEVICH, Illinois STEVEN C. LaTOURETTE, Ohio DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois MARSHALL ``MARK'' SANFORD, South JOHN F. TIERNEY, Massachusetts Carolina JIM TURNER, Texas JOHN E. SUNUNU, New Hampshire THOMAS H. ALLEN, Maine PETE SESSIONS, Texas HAROLD E. FORD, Jr., Tennessee MICHAEL PAPPAS, New Jersey ------ VINCE SNOWBARGER, Kansas BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont BOB BARR, Georgia (Independent) DAN MILLER, Florida Kevin Binger, Staff Director Daniel R. Moll, Deputy Staff Director William Moschella, Deputy Counsel and Parliamentarian Judith McCoy, Chief Clerk Phil Schiliro, Minority Staff Director ------ SUBCOMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT MANAGEMENT, INFORMATION, AND TECHNOLOGY STEPHEN HORN, California, Chairman PETE SESSIONS, Texas DENNIS J. KUCINICH, Ohio THOMAS M. DAVIS, Virginia PAUL E. KANJORSKI, Pennsylvania JOE SCARBOROUGH, Florida MAJOR R. OWENS, New York MARSHALL ``MARK'' SANFORD, South CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York Carolina JIM TURNER, Texas JOHN E. SUNUNU, New Hampshire ------ ------ Ex Officio DAN BURTON, Indiana HENRY A. WAXMAN, California J. Russell George, Staff Director and Chief Counsel John Hynes, Professional Staff Member Matthew Ebert, Clerk Mark Stephenson, Minority Professional Staff Member C O N T E N T S ------ Opening statements: Page Senator Brownback............................................ 1 Representative Horn.......................................... 3 Prepared statements: Representative Maloney....................................... 10 Representative Kucinich...................................... 11 Representative Duncan........................................ 12 Representative Hoyer......................................... 15 WITNESSES Tuesday, March 24, 1998 Hon. Craig Thomas, a U.S. Senator from the State of Wyoming...... 4 G. Edward DeSeve, Acting Deputy Director for Management, U.S. Office of Management and Budget................................ 17 Skip Stitt, former Deputy Mayor, City of Indianapolis, testifying on behalf of Hon. Steven Goldsmith, Mayor, City of Indianapolis 19 Steve Kelman, Ph.D., Weatherhead Professor of Public Management, Harvard University............................................. 36 Bryan Logan, Chief Executive Officer, Earth Data International... 38 Larry Trammell, Corporate Vice President and General Manager, Science Applications International Corp........................ 41 Douglas K. Stevens, Jr., Partner of Information Technology Services Group, under Grant Thornton, LLP, representing the U.S. Chamber of Commerce....................................... 42 Robert M. Tobias, National President, The National Treasury Employees Union................................................ 44 Bobby L. Harnage, President, American Federation of Government Employees...................................................... 46 Michael B. Styles, National President, Federal Managers Association.................................................... 48 Alphabetical List of Witnesses DeSeve, G. Edward: Testimony.................................................... 17 Prepared statement........................................... 65 Harnage, Bobby L.: Testimony.................................................... 46 Prepared statement........................................... 276 Kelman, Steve: Testimony.................................................... 36 Prepared statement........................................... 81 Logan, Bryan: Testimony.................................................... 38 Prepared statement........................................... 84 Stevens, Douglas K. Jr.: Testimony.................................................... 42 Prepared statement........................................... 91 Stitt, Skip: Testimony.................................................... 19 Prepared statement submitted on behalf of Mayor Stephen Goldsmith.................................................. 72 Styles, Michael B.: Testimony.................................................... 48 Prepared statement........................................... 337 Thomas, Hon. Craig: Testimony.................................................... 4 Prepared statement........................................... 80 Tobias, Robert M.: Testimony.................................................... 44 Prepared statement with attachments.......................... 97 Trammell, Larry: Testimony.................................................... 41 Prepared statement........................................... 88 APPENDIX Draft letter from David M. Gentry, American Federation of Government Employees affiliated with the AFL-CIO, dated 16 March 1998..................................................... 34 Additional prepared statements submitted for the record from: Procurement Round Table...................................... 346 National Treasury Employees Union............................ 368 Helicopter Association International......................... 370 American Congress on Surveying and Mapping................... 374 American Consulting Engineers Council........................ 381 Small Business Legislative Council........................... 384 National Federation of Federal Employees..................... 389 A FREE MARKET APPROACH TO FEDERAL CONTRACTING: THE FAIR COMPETITION ACT OF 1998 AND THE COMPETITION IN COMMERCIAL ACTIVITIES OF 1998 ---------- TUESDAY, MARCH 24, 1998 U.S. Senate, Oversight of Government Management, Restructuring and the District of Columbia Subcommittee, of the Committee on Governmental Affairs, joint with U.S. House of Representatives, Subcommittee on Government Management, Information, and Technology, of the Committee on Government Reform and Oversight. Washington, DC. The joint hearing met, pursuant to notice, at 2:11 p.m., in room SD-342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Sam Brownback, Chairman of the Subcommittee on Oversight of Government Management, Restructuring, and the District of Columbia, presiding. Present: Senator Brownback and Representatives Horn, Sessions, Maloney, and Kucinich. OPENING STATEMENT BY SENATOR BROWNBACK Senator Brownback. The hearing will come to order. Thank you all for joining us today. I want to welcome you to our joint hearing examining the Fair Competition Act of 1998 and the Competition in Commercial Activities Act of 1998. I would especially like to welcome our colleagues from the House Subcommittee on Government Management, Information, and Technology, Congressman Horn who is present, and I would particularly like to note his leadership on this topic. For all the years I have been in Congress, the House and the Senate has been a leader on this topic, and we are moving forward with something positive, and I am glad to be associated with him. Our Subcommittee held a hearing in June of last year on the previous version of S. 314, the Freedom from Government Competition Act, and listened very carefully to industry and Federal Government representatives testify about the strengths and the weaknesses of our legislation. Since then, we have been redrafting the legislation to accommodate various concerns, and I believe we have come a long way to move this bill toward enactment. The reason for the legislation, I think is clear. The current Federal competition policy, also known as OMB Circular A-76--that is quite a title--is not working. A-76 provides guidelines for a com- petition process, but Federal agencies are not required to follow these guidelines, and as a result, many agencies simply ignore them. Last year, OMB asked Federal agencies to provide the number of Federal employees currently performing commercial activities in-house. The results varied widely. For example, the Department of Defense follows the OMB competition guidelines under A-76. DOD acknowledged that about 59 percent of their employees engaged in non-inherently government or commercial activities. Other Federal Cabinet agencies, however, claimed that on average approximately 5 percent of their employees are performing commercial activities. Two agencies, the Department of Commerce and the Department of State, chose not to respond to the OMB survey at all. I hope that these responses are not indicative of an attitude of resistance to competition in these Federal Cabinet agencies, and I also hope that this discrepancy between the Department of Defense and the rest of the Federal agencies will be explained by some of our witnesses today. In redrafting this legislation, representatives from the Federal Employees Union and private industry made it clear that OMB Circular A-76 does not work because Federal agencies ignore it. We have got a little cartoon graphic here for that. As a result, on one side of the table, private industry says that Federal employees are favored because the agency chooses to keep these functions in-house, and on the other side of the table, the unions say Federal agencies choose to immediately contract out commercial functions without giving Federal employees a chance to compete for these functions. In order to address these concerns from the Senate Subcommittee at the last hearing, the new bill implements a competitive process which includes both the private industry and the Federal employees. Both sides have an opportunity to compete on a level playing field. Another concern raised at our Subcommittee's last hearing is the need for flexibility in determining an inclusive competition policy. In addition, the unions expressed the need for cost comparisons to be included when determining whether the functions should be performed by the Federal Government or the private sector. Since then, all sides on this issue have acknowledged that fair competition between the Federal agencies and private industry is essential to ensure that the Federal Government is getting the most for each taxpayer dollar spent on these non- inherently governmental functions. As a response, we have redrafted S. 314 to create a level playing field for fair competition to take place between a private sector and the Federal agencies. The Fair Competition Act addresses all of these concerns. The ongoing discussions with representatives from all sides of this issue are very important to redrafting this bill. We are very serious about moving this legislation through Congress this year, and I look forward to working with our colleagues in the Senate and the House and the administration to make this happen. With that, I want to acknowledge Congressman Horn for an opening statement and again state how pleased I am to be associ- ated with him on this effort that he has focused so much intensity on in moving this issue forward. Congressman Horn. OPENING STATEMENT OF STEPHEN HORN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA Mr. Horn. I thank you, Mr. Chairman. We are delighted to be with you. We have learned to appreciate your expertise and knowledge and commitment in the House. We are sorry you went over here, where you have all this space and beautiful hearing rooms, but it is nice to be on your turf. Today, we are examining a policy in the area of commercial activities performed by the Federal Government. Current policy is governed by the Office of Management and Budget Circular A- 76, something I remember well, I happened to be in the Eisenhower administration, which says: one, that agencies ought to rely on private sources for commercial activities, and on government sources for inherently governmental activities; two, that agencies should not start new commercial activities if they can get a contractor to perform the activity; and, three, that agencies will subject their in-house commercial activities to competition. According to information provided by the Office of Management and Budget, not one single agency, outside of the Department of Defense, uses A-76 competitions. The Department of Defense does follow the circular, largely because there is an implicit agreement that savings will go to other agency programs--namely, force modernization. We have an administrative policy promulgated by the President through OMB that is simply not followed. It is into this vacuum between policy and practice that the current legislative proposals seek to fill. This policy dates from 1954, as I noted, President Eisenhower's first term, when Congress passed a version of H.R. 9835, legislation establishing a policy of relying upon the private sector sources for commercial activities. H.R. 9835 passed the House by a voice vote, was amended in the Senate, but never became law. We have seen that happen a few times in our careers. Resistance to the current proposals sounds eerily familiar to objections heard 40 years ago. In the House debate, then- Representative Tip O'Neill, Jr., Massachusetts, argued for retaining the plant in Massachusetts that made rope for the Navy. Others discussed the Federal operations making coffee roasters, dentures, sleeping bags, and even iron and steel plants. Most of these operations are now defunct, and we have contracted with private vendors to make dentures, and the coffee to stain them, with specialized firms that have those functions as their core missions. In response, the Bureau of the Budget promulgated a bulletin on this issue, which evolved into OMB Circular A-76. In the private sector, specialization and competition have reduced costs and improved performance and consumer choice. The most competitive sectors of the economy are also the most innovative. Federal antitrust policy is designed to ensure competition, so that customers do not get gouged. We need an antitrust policy for the Federal Government, to ensure that competition brings benefits to taxpayers. My own view is that some agencies already have the most experienced and efficient people doing the job. But other agencies do not, especially as buyouts have removed some of the most capable performers. Competition can be a spur to improve performance in either case. According to the General Accounting Office, Congress' audit arms that program in money, competition can reduce the cost of government by an average of 20 to 35 percent. That is real money. I know that there are vendors who have been harmed by government competition. I also know that there have been Federal employees harmed by contracting out. There have been spectacular failures by contractors, equally spectacular failures in government agencies in functions performed by Federal employees. But our primary purpose here today is to focus on good government demanded by the taxpayers who sent us here, and who ultimately pay the bills of not only Congress, but the Executive Branch. Today, we will hear from the sponsor of the bill, my next- door neighbor my first year in Congress, Senator Craig Thomas of Wyoming, a very distinguished, dedicated Member. Our witnesses represent some of the best minds in this area at the Federal, State, and local levels, and at the employee as well as employer levels, and we look forward to their testimony. I want to add that the staff has received several unsolicited statements for the record of this hearing. The Subcommittee would like to encourage additional thoughts on this issue, and we will hold open the testimony for 3 weeks for any person to provide a statement. We do not mean to close the door to any point of view, and we encourage healthy debate. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Senator Brownback. Thank you very much. We would like to invite to the table, Senator Craig Thomas, the sponsor of the Fair Competition Act of 1998. We were going to have Congressman John Duncan, but his plane has been delayed. So he will not be able to be with us. Senator Thomas, I would note at the outset, after your presentation and the questions, you would certainly be welcome to join us on the dias if you would like to. I may have to slip out at one point for an amendment that I have on the floor during this hearing. So that may be something that has to take place. Welcome. I know you have been doing a lot of work on this act, and please fill us in. TESTIMONY OF HON. CRAIG THOMAS, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF WYOMING Senator Thomas. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, Steve, nice to see you. I appreciate very much your having the hearing today. I have appeared before both of you in the recent past. We have made subsequent changes to the legislation, as you know, with your cooperation and your involvement. So I appreciate the opportunity to testify. I also thank Congressman Duncan, my colleague, for his hard work, and I am sorry he could not be here today. For over 40 years, it has been the administrative policy of the Federal Government to rely on the private sector for its commercial needs, a policy that is now found in OMB Circular A- 76. The basis, of course, for this legislation is that A-76 is a fundamentally flawed process that is basically ignored. For example, OMB estimates there are nearly 500,000 Federal employees who are doing commercial work. OMB acknowledges that this is a conservative estimate because two Cabinet agencies and a host of smaller agencies did not even bother to respond and turn in a commercial inventory. What can OMB do about it? Nothing. The fact is CBO has estimated that well over a million Federal employees do commercial work. Even those agencies that do compile a commercial inventory maintain a government monopoly by keeping commercial work in-house and refuse to conduct A-76 cost comparisons. Because A-76 is an administrative policy, there is little OMB or the private sector can do to challenge these anti-free market practices. In fact, under reinventing government initiatives, agencies not only in-source without competitions; they also market their services to the private sector. This is such a big problem that all three sessions of the White House Conference on Small Business rated unfair competition as one of the top concerns to small entrepreneurs. But, OMB lacks important data on the commercial work of the Federal Government. OMB does not know the dollar value of commercial activities the Federal Government conducts. It does not know how much reimbursable work Federal agencies do for one another. It does not know how much work the Federal Government does for State and local governments. In fact, in a recent article, the Washington Times named A- 76 as one of the seven worst regulations in America. It said, ``Circular A-76 has raised so many obstacles and regulatory impediments to market reforms at the Defense Department, it is having the opposite effect of its original intentions.'' A-76 studies often take more than 2 years to complete. The cost comparison under A-76 are like comparing apples and oranges. A level playing field does not exist due to differences in public and private sector accounting structures, work organizations, and budgeting processes, but the worst part of the whole A-76 mess is that the American taxpayer gets shortchanged. Studies by OMB, DOD, and GAO show that the government can save 20 to 30 percent or more when services are competed. That means the Federal Government could get better goods and services and actually save billions of dollars annually, but since A-76 is not fair and is not used, the taxpayers never get the benefits of those improved goods and services or the cost savings associated with competition. To inject free-market competition into government monopolies, for the past several years, I have been the Senate sponsor of the Freedom of Government Competition Act. Previous versions of the bill would have codified the 40-year-old administrative policy of re- liance on the private sector. However, the new and improved bill we are talking about today has been significantly restructured, and I want to stress this point. No longer does the bill require out-sourcing to the private sector. Instead, it replaces the one-side cost comparison found in A-76 with a competitive process, which will allow Federal employees and private sector businesses to compete on a level playing field. The redraft provides for simple and fair process. It requires a list of non-inherently governmental activities. It requires activities on the list to be subjected to competition. It provides for a challenge process to these decisions. This bill avoids the pitfalls of A-76, which is unfair, unused, and unenforceable. OMB will say the bill is not needed; that it is doing a good job of implementing A-76. The fact is that an administrative policy does not work and has not worked, and the time has come for a statutory requirement that is, in fact, enforceable. OMB also will say that the judicial review portion of the bill will tie up agencies' decisions in courts, and I share OMB's dislike for litigation, but I do not think that a taxpaying citizen should lose his job because the Federal Government ran him out of business without giving him a chance for some kind of judicial recource. The fact is judicial review has been part of many other government reform laws. Further, legislation introduced in the past by congressional Democrats to ban contracting out included judicial review. So there seems to be bipartisan agreement that some kind of redress is appropriate. OMB will, no doubt, criticize some other details of the bill. Reasonable people can, in fact, disagree, and I appreciate OMB's willingness to discuss these issues. As I indicated to OMB in a meeting the other day, I am not necessarily tied to this approach on how we get there. I think the goal--which is fair competition and to allow the private sector to participate on a fair playing field, and how we get there is something that we can all talk about. I am more interested in the results than the process, and the fact is that A-76 is not producing the results. In the past, unions have endorsed public-private competition. This bill empowers Federal employees. They complain that agencies are contracting without using A-76. They feel that they do not have the opportunity to compete. They ought to endorse this legislation. It allows them to compete on a level playing field. Where they stand on this bill remains to be seen. This legislation has been fundamentally rewritten. Is it perfect? No, but that is why we are here, and I am willing to work with anyone that has an interest in this matter. As I said before, I am not so concerned about the details as I am in the outcome. Saving American taxpayers money, creating a Federal Government that works better and costs less, that is the goal. So Chairman Brownback, and Chairman Horn, I thank you so much for the opportunity, and I look forward to working with you as we seek to perfect this legislation. Senator Brownback. We look forward to working with you, and we appreciate you bringing this bill forward. It is my hope that we can move it forward this session of Congress through the Subcommittees, the Committee, and onto the floor for a successful vote, and hopefully get it to the President's desk. I noted with interest your point of OMB's estimate that 500,000 Federal employees are doing private sector type of work. That is a significant number and a conservative estimate. We really need to get at that, so that the Federal taxpayer or the taxpayers in the country can get their money's worth. I appreciate the Senator's work, what he is doing on this, and we will look forward to working with you as this process moves on forward. Senator Thomas. Thank you very much. Senator Brownback. Congressman Horn. Mr. Horn. Senator, I am curious if you can sum up in a couple of sentences how your apparatus would work compared to A-76, so we do not have the dilly-dallying we have had since the Eisenhower administration. Senator Thomas. Steve, no one can sum up in the Senate in a couple of sentences. No, I am kidding. Mr. Horn. Well, I am a college professor. I am use to 50- minute dialogs, also. Senator Thomas. I think your question is valid, you can do different things. The key to it is that it is a statutory requirement, currently it is not. So we have had this in place, as you mentioned, since the Eisenhower administration. It has been there. It has been the concept. It has been the notion. It has been the policy, but it does not have any enforcement. So what we are seeking to do, I think, basically is to accomplish the same goal, but we have found that it does not work, and it is the old saying, if you want different results, you cannot keep doing the same thing. So I do not think we can keep doing the same thing and expect the results to be different. Mr. Horn. Well, if it is statutory, which it would be if we passed it, what are the sanctions if they do not do it? There is a lot of laws that the Executive Branch, regardless of party, seems to have a great knack for not following. Senator Thomas. Well, first, the responsibility would be more ours (Congress) to ensure that it happened. After all, if we put it into statute, then we have some responsibility to ensure that it happens, as with any other law. I think that is also why there is some opportunity for some sort of judicial review. There should be some kind of a way to test that statute and see that it works. I am certainly not one that encourages litigation, but that is as fair here as it is everywhere else. Mr. Horn. Should there be some kind of base closure mandatory mechanism that each year an agency would have to put certain things on the chopping block, and then that would be looked at by an independent commission? Does that make any sense? Senator Thomas. I do not know. I frankly do not think it would be that hard to enforce if, in fact, it were a statute, if, in fact, agencies went through and did the listings with respect to the various commercial activities, and I am sure that you and I, for example, would get reactions from people at home, in the private sector, and probably some reactions from people in government if they did not think this was working, and there would then be pressure to do something about it. So I think it would be enforced if it were a statute, and I believe that is what we ought to do. Mr. Horn. Recently, we reviewed strategic plans from the various agencies. Should we make this a fundamental element of a strategic plan? That is also one way to deal with it. Senator Thomas. Yes, absolutely. Mr. Horn. That would force at least yearly goal-setting and looking at a situation within a particular area. Senator Thomas. As you said, we are in the process. I am Chairman of the Subcommittee on Parks. In fact, that is where I am supposed to be right now. We are trying to do some things on management there, and we are pushing for a strategic plan at the agency level, a strategic plan at the various park levels, plans that include measurable results. We have found through GAO studies that quite often the budget proposals that are submitted by agencies for the activities listed are not the activities that the money was spent for. So I think you are exactly right. I think there ought to be in the strategic plan and in the management plan some measurable kinds of results, so that you could look at them very easily, and this could be one of those. Senator Brownback. Thank you very much, Senator Thomas. Senator Thomas. My pleasure. Thank you. Senator Brownback. We appreciate it. We look forward to working with you. Mrs. Maloney. Good to see you again, Senator Thomas. Senator Thomas. Thank you. Nice to see you. Mrs. Maloney. We miss you in the other body. Senator Thomas. Well, I miss being over there, as a matter of fact. [The prepared statement of Senator Thomas follows:] OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR THOMAS Chairman Brownback, Chairman Horn, Members of the Subcommittees, thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today regarding the important issue of direct Federal Government competition with the private sector. I especially want to thank both Chairmen for their hard work and continued interest in this matter. I also thank Congressman Duncan, the primary sponsor of this legislation in the U.S. House, for his dedication to this topic. Need for Legislation: A-76 is Fundamentally Flawed and Routinely Ignored For the past four decades, it has been the administrative policy of the Federal Government to rely upon the private sector for its ``commercial'' needs. This policy was originally issued in 1955 during the Eisenhower Administration in reaction to a bill very similar to the original version of this legislation that was moving through Congress at the time. However, Congress relented when President Eisenhower agreed to solve the problem administratively. This policy is now found in Office of Management and Budget (OMB) Circular A-76. Basically, it requires Federal agencies to submit a list of commercial activities and the number of Federal employees engaged in those activities to OMB. A- 76 lays out a process for dealing with these activities, namely cost comparisons between public and private sources for the right to provide a good or service. Unfortunately for the American taxpayer, that policy is fundamentally flawed and routinely ignored. For example, OMB estimates that there are nearly 500,000 Federal employees currently doing work that is commercial in nature. Over 90 percent of these employees are in the Department of Defense. OMB acknowledges that this is a conservative estimate because the Department of Commerce and the State Department didn't bother to submit commercial inventories to OMB. Further, most other smaller Federal agencies declined to file a commercial inventory with OMB. In fact, CBO has estimated in the past that well over one million Federal employees are engaged in commercial work. And even in those agencies that do file commercial inventories with OMB, they keep commercial work in-house and maintain their government monopolies by refusing to conduct A-76 cost comparisons. Because A-76 is an administrative policy, there is little OMB can do to make agencies change their current monopolistic practices. But that's only part of the story. OMB has no idea what the dollar value is of commercial activities the Federal Government engages in, how much reimbursable work Federal agencies do for each other, or how much work the Federal Government does for State and local governments. Further, OMB and other Federal agencies ignore an existing Executive Order that requires each agency to compete 3 percent of its commercial activities each year. A recent article in the Washington Times named A-76 as one of the seven worst regulations in America. The article states, ``Alas, Circular A-76 has raised so many obstacles and regulatory impediments to market reforms at the Defense Department it is having the opposite effect of its original intentions.'' For example, A-76 studies routinely take over 2 years to complete and at best allow for apples to oranges comparisons between public and private sector capabilities. A level playing field does not exist due to differences in public and private sector accounting structures, work organization and budgeting processes. It is unfortunate that A-76 is broken and ineffective because the net effect to the American taxpayer is billions of dollars wasted each year. Activities ranging from the mundane to the high-tech, from laundry services to information technology are performed by government monopolies, even when they can be obtained more cost effectively from the private sector at equal or higher quality. Studies by OMB, the Department of Defense (DoD) and the General Accounting Office (GAO) show that the government saves 20 to 30 percent or more when services are competed. Similar savings were found when the private sector was utilized in several State and local governments in the United States and throughout the world. Later today, Mayor Goldsmith of Indianapolis will explain in detail the success he has had in providing his constituents with better services at lower costs by utilizing competitive market forces. However, under the Clinton Administration's ``reinventing'' government initiatives, agencies not only engage in commercial activities for their own use (or so called in-sourcing), but have become entrepreneurial and are marketing their services to other government agencies and the commercial marketplace. In many cases, they are displacing private sector firms, a number of which are small businesses. In fact, the problem has become so pervasive that all three sessions of the White House Conference on Small Business ranked unfair competition from government and government supported entities as one of the biggest concerns to small entrepreneurs. Legislation Has Been Significantly Re-Drafted To inject market competition into government monopolies in Washington, for the past several years I have introduced the Senate version of the ``Freedom from Government Competition Act.'' Its main premise was based on the 40-year-old policy that the Federal Government should rely on the private sector for its commercial needs. However, this legislation before you today has been fundamentally restructured. Based on input from many parties, including OMB, GAO, private industry and labor unions, this legislation has been re-drafted to establish a simple and fair process. For example, the bill no longer requires outsourcing all Federal commercial functions. Instead of the one-sided cost comparison that favors government production of commercial goods and services now found in OMB Circular A-76, this legislation will allow Federal employees and private sector businesses to compete on a level playing field. This change will guarantee the American taxpayer will get the highest quality goods and services for the lowest possible prices. Basically, the re-drafted legislation does three things: (1) It requires Federal agencies to compile a list of ``non-inherently governmental activities;'' (2) It requires those agencies to run competitions for those activities within a specific time frame; and (3) It provides a process for both the public and private sector to challenge agency decision. By narrowing the focus of the bill and stripping it down to a simple process, this legislation avoids the pitfalls of A-76, which is unfair, unused and unenforceable. Criticism of Re-Drafted Legislation OMB will testify today that this bill is not needed. My testimony has already documented OMB's inability to enforce A-76. The fact of the matter is that an administrative policy has been in place for over 40 years and it has not worked. The time for a statutory provision has come. Another objection OMB will make today is that passing this legislation will invite lawsuits from private sector businesses and labor unions that will tie up the process indefinitely. While I share OMB's dislike for lawsuits, I do not share the belief that a tax paying citizen should lose his job because the Federal Government ran him out of business without giving him the ability to go to court. The fact is that judicial review has been a part of several recently enacted laws like the Regulatory Flexibility Act and there have been few problems. Further, legislation introduced in the past by congressional Democrats (Rep. Kanjorski for example) to ban contracting out has included judicial review as a vital component, so there seems to be bipartisan agreement that judicial review of some sort is appropriate. No doubt OMB also will offer some criticisms of how the re-draft is structured and how it would be implemented. Reasonable people can disagree about some of these details. And I appreciate OMB's willingness to discuss these issues. But what's inarguable is that the American taxpayer is being shortchanged by the current system. Even Federal employee labor unions think the current process has problems. They complain that A-76 isn't used and that agencies contract out regardless of cost or performance. Quite frankly, the labor unions ought to endorse this legislation, because it provides Federal employees the opportunity to compete with private sector businesses on a level playing field. this bill would empower Federal employees. In the past, the unions have said that they strongly endorse competition. Where they stand on this bill will see if their actions match their rhetoric. Conclusion This legislation has been fundamentally re-written. Is it perfect? No. But that's why Congress has the committee process. I am willing to work with anyone, with any group that has an interest in this matter. Quite frankly, I am not so concerned about the details as I am about the outcome--saving taxpayers' money and creating a Federal Government that works better and costs less. Again, I thank Chairman Brownback and Chairman Horn for their continued interest in this issue. I also salute my colleague, Congressman Duncan for carrying the banner on the House side for many years now. I look forward to working with you and this Committee to enact this good government, common sense reform. Mr. Horn. Yes, sir. Senator Brownback. Congresswoman Maloney and Congressman Kucinich, do you have any questions of this witness? Mrs. Maloney. I just, in the interest of time, would like to know if my opening statement could be put in the record as read. Senator Brownback. Absolutely, without objection. Mr. Kucinich. Mr. Chairman, I would like to do the same. Thank you. Senator Brownback. Absolutely. [The prepared statements of Hon. Carolyn B. Maloney, Hon. Dennis J. Kucinich, Hon. John J. Duncan, Jr., and Hon. Steny H. Hoyer follows:] PREPARED STATEMENT OF HON. CAROLYN B. MALONEY, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NEW YORK Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And welcome Representative Duncan and Senator Thomas. I look forward to today's hearing on the ``Freedom from Government Competition Act,'' the ``Competition in Commercial Activities Act,'' and the ``Fair Competition Act.'' These bills go to the heart of the debate about the nature and proper role of government. Which functions should government perform and which functions should the private sector perform. Privatization, or contracting out, is not a cure-all for government problems. But if implemented wisely, contracting out can be a useful tool in providing services for the American public more economically and efficiently. However, we must remember that it is just one tool. Empowering workers through training, treating them as assets, and striving to improve management techniques are all great examples of tools we will need in government for the next century. The Federal Government relies on commercial contractors for $120 billion annually in needed goods and services. The legislation we will talk about today is designed to substantially expand that amount. However, contracting out raises a number of difficult and contentious issues, which we should discuss here today. Cost accounting standards, contract management controls and job placement and training for displaced workers are but a few. We must also be cautious that contracting out a service doesn't end up costing us more in the long run, because once turned over to the private sector, it is often difficult and expensive for the government to regain control. For example, private trash hauling in New York City costs five times what it does in San Francisco. The Los Angeles school district wound up a few years ago with a $3 million bill for deficits run up by a contractor hired to run the school food services. On the other hand, New York City gave park service workers greater control over their jobs and found that they could operate more efficiently than private contractors. In a 1992 experiment, the cost of tree removal in Queens and the Bronx by city workers was thousands less than a contractor would have charged. Contracting out is a process which needs to be carefully scrutinized. First, we need accurate and complete information on what is to be privatized and why. Second, we must insist on sound contracts that incorporate incentives for cost savings including severe penalties for failure to perform. Finally, we should have a strong and effective job placement program for displaced workers. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I look forward to hearing from our witnesses. __________ PREPARED STATEMENT OF HON. DENNIS J. KUCINICH, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF OHIO Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would also like to thank Chairman Horn for agreeing to hold this hearing at my request. The issues raised by this legislation are fundamental ones. How they are settled will have a profound and lasting impact on the structure of the Federal Government, on Federal employees, and on the American public. A full and fair discussion of these issues is vital to the legislative process, so I appreciate this opportunity, and the Majority's willingness to take into account our views on what would constitute a balanced panel of witnesses. That being said, I must also frankly state that I have serious concerns about this legislation as currently drafted. I'm sure that every Senator and Representative here today believes that our job is to constantly strive for a more efficient and cost-effective Federal Government. The current administration has made great strides in that effort through the longest-running government reform effort in America's history. The policies have already saved American taxpayers over $130 billion dollars. The size of the Federal workforce has been reduced, through attrition and buyouts, by over 300,000 employees. We now have the smallest Federal workforce since John F. Kennedy was President. This legislation seems to proceed from the premise that the Federal Government is not contracting out enough, despite the fact that we already spend more on the contracting of services--about $114 billion in fiscal year 1997--than we spend on pay and retirement for the entire civilian workforce. In fact, some of the more-recently created Federal agencies like the Department of Energy, NASA and EPA have relied from the start on contracting out for services rather than performing them directly. Critics of the current process as embodied in OMB Circular A- 76 maintain that only the Defense Department is actively pursing public-private competitions, yet almost 40 percent of the $114 billion in service contracting comes from the civilian agencies. So we are already spending vast amounts of money on services contracts. Unfortunately, in many cases that money is probably being poorly spent. According to both OMB and the General Accounting Office, contract administration is one of the highest risk activities the government engages in. Examples abound: Senate hearings uncovered $27 billion a year in contractor Medicare fraud; in 1995, $25 billion in payments to defense contractors could not be matched invoices, and in many cases DOD relies on the contractors themselves to identify overpayments; at one DOE site, a contractor poured toxic and radioactive waste into the ground, and stored more in leaky drums. Whether from outright theft, charges of unallowable costs, lack of top-level management attention to contract management, or ineffective contract administration and auditing, the Federal Government is losing billions of dollars a year. It seems to me that this bill puts the cart before the horse. If we are truly interested in a more cost-effective government, we should drastically improve contract management before moving to contract out billions more in services. Yet the legislation before us is silent on these vital issues. The legislation before us also seems to me to have a one-sided approach which favors the contractors, at the expense of Federal employees and the American public. The bill requires Federal agencies to create an inventory of functions which are not inherently governmental. It then allows ``interested parties'' to challenge omissions from this list--but not inclusions. Parties with a direct economic interest in particular activities could, under the Senate draft, sue in Federal court to challenge an omission. Affected public interest groups, employees organizations and the general public are given no similar standing if they feel a particular activity is an inherently governmental function and should not be contracted out. In addition, the bills seem to prohibit contracting in. Denying agencies the ability to compete and bring certain functions back in-house is inherently unfair to government employees. It also works against the very efficiency and cost-effectiveness the bill is supposed to achieve. Finally, Mr. Chairman, we need to establish a truly level playing field if we are to embark on the course this bill envisions--including comparable pay, benefits and working conditions between Federal employees and contractor employees. The authors of this legislation claim it will save substantial sums of money. I am not convinced that is the case, but any savings must not be on the backs of American workers, and dedicated Federal workers should be held harmless if they lose their jobs. I welcome our witnesses and thank you Chairmen. __________ PREPARED STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN J. DUNCAN, JR., A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF TENNESSEE Chairman Horn, Chairman Brownback and Members of the House and Senate Subcommittees, it is my pleasure to appear before you today. As the sponsor of H.R. 716, the Freedom From Government Competition Act, I am delighted that the Subcommittee is conducting this hearing to explore legislative strategies that could and should be implemented to save tax dollars, empower the private sector, eliminate unfair government competition with and duplication of private firms, focus loyal and hardworking Federal employees on those important functions that only the government can and should perform, and to truly have a government that works better and costs less. As you know, Senator Thomas has introduced the Senate companion bill to H.R. 716. I would like to thank him for his work on this legislation. Our bills have bipartisan support with 66 cosponsors in the House and 14 in the Senate. In addition, this legislation has been endorsed by a number of organizations including the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, the National Federation of Independent Business, and many others. I think the legislation that I have introduced with Senator Thomas is a very modest proposal. It does not require the Federal Government to contract everything out. We recognize that there are things that the government does best and there are functions that only the government should do. This bill does not require the government to contract out functions that are related to national security or those things that are related to the core mission of an agency. It requires only that the Federal agencies look at those things they do which are commercial in nature. The history of government competition is a long one. Based on my research, it is my understanding that legislation like mine was first introduced in Congress in 1954. Faced with the prospect of enactment of such a bill, the old Bureau of the Budget in the Eisenhower Administration issued a policy statement on reliance on the private sector. A bill was reported by the House Government Operations Committee, passed the House and was reported by the Senate Governmental Affairs Committee. The Executive Branch argued that legislation was not necessary, that it inappropriately would inject the Legislative Branch into the legitimate management functions of the agencies. So, in lieu of that legislation, an Executive policy was issued. And over the past 40 years, Federal agencies have grown, the expanse of agency performance of commercial activities has proliferated, and the extent to which government activities duplicate, and indeed, compete with the private sector has become extensive. In fact, the genesis of contracting out legislation dates back even further. The history of government competition is best described by Dr. Allan V. Burman, President Bush's Administrator of the Office of Federal Procurement Policy. In testimony be- fore the Subcommittee on Human Resources of the Committee on Post Office and Civil Service, on January 25, 1990, he said: ``As far back as 1932, a Special Committee of the House of Representatives expressed concern over the extent to which the government engaged in activities which might be more appropriately performed by the private sector. The first and second Hoover Commissions expressed similar concern in the 1940's and recommended legislation to prohibit government competition with private enterprise. However, there was no formal policy until 1955, when Congress introduced legislation to require the Executive Branch to increase its reliance on the private sector. Finally action was dropped only upon assurance from the Executive Branch that it would implement the policy administratively. Bureau of the Budget Bulletin 55-4 . . . was issued in 1955 prohibiting agencies from carrying on any commercial activities which could be provided by the private sector. Exceptions were permitted only when it could be clearly demonstrated in specific cases that the use of the private sector would not be in the public interest.'' On January 15, 1955, the policy directive issued by President Eisenhower stated: ``The Federal Government will not start or carry on any commercial activity to provide a service or product for its own use if such product or service can be procured from private enterprise through ordinary business channels.'' Dr. Burman told the Subcommittee: ``Since 1955, every Administration has endorsed the general policy of reliance on the private sector to provide commercial and industrial services.'' Unfortunately, that policy has not been implemented. It is estimated that as many as one million Federal employees are engaged in commercial activities. While this policy has been endorsed by every Administration, Republican and Democrat, since 1955, enforcement has been poor. This Federal policy is now found in Office of Management and Budget Circular A-76. This circular is a miserable failure. It is completely up to the agencies to decide if they want to convert their in-house activities to contract. It is up to the agencies to decide if they want to do an A-76 study. It is up to the agencies to decide whether to perform an activity in-house or by contract. It is my view that legislation is both necessary and desirable. It is desirable because it has been estimated enactment of this bill could result in as much as $9 billion per year in savings without cutting services. It is necessary because the experience of the past 40 years has shown that without a legislative mandate, agencies will not take this action on their own. Numerous organizations have conducted studies on contracting out. In 1984, the Grace Commission recommended contracting out and estimated that $4.6 billion a year could be saved by using private contractors to perform the commercial activities currently accomplished in-house by Federal employees, while at that time OMB estimated the savings at up to $3 billion annually. In 1995, the Heritage Foundation issued a report, ``Cutting the Deficit and Improving Services By Contracting Out'' which stated: ``Contracting out government services to the private sector offers the new Congress the winning opportunity to make substantial cuts in Federal spending as much as $9 billion per year--without reducing essential constituent services.'' The 1995 report of the Commission on the Roles and Missions of the Armed Forces, known as the ``White Commission'' indicated that in the Department of Defense ``at least 250,000 civilian employees are performing commercial-type activities that do not need to be performed by government personnel . . . we are confident our recommendations for greater use of private market competition will lower DoD support costs and improve performance. A 20 percent savings from outsourcing the Department's commercial-type workload would free over $3 billion per year for higher priority defense needs. . . . We recommend that the government in general, and the Department of Defense in particular, return to the basic principle that the government should not compete with its citizens.'' In 1980, the first White House Conference on Small Business made unfair competition one of its top issues. It said: ``The Federal Government shall be required by statute to contract out to small business those supplies and services that the private sector can provide. The government should not compete with the private sector by accomplishing these efforts with its own or non-profit personnel and facilities.'' The issue of government competition with the private sector has become so pervasive that the 1986 White House Conference on Small Business adopted as one of its leading planks: ``Government at all levels has failed to protect small business from damaging levels of unfair competition. At the Federal, State and local levels, therefore, laws, regulations and policies should . . . prohibit direct, government created competition in which government organizations perform commercial services New laws at all levels, particularly at the Federal level, should require strict government reliance on the private sector for performance of commercial-type functions. When cost comparisons are necessary to accomplish conversion to private sector performance, laws must include provision for fair and equal cost comparisons. Funds controlled by a government entity must not be used to establish or conduct a commercial activity on U.S. property.'' The 1995 White House Conference on Small Business, again made this issue one of its top priorities. Its plank read: ``Congress should enact legislation that would prohibit government agencies and tax exempt and anti-trust exempt organizations from engaging in commercial activities in direct competition with small businesses.'' The National Policy Forum, said: ``In reducing the size and scope of government, it is time for Washington to learn from the lessons of the State and local governments. In Indianapolis, Jersey City, Dallas, Charlotte and Philadelphia, city governments under Democrat as well as Republican administration are turning to privatization to do more with less. In some cases, governments are getting out of the business of doing things they never should have done in the first place. In other cases, private companies compete with public employees to provide service at the highest quality and the lowest cost. * * * ``The Federal Government can learn much from the new breed of mayors and governors who are responding to the call from their friends and neighbors to put government back in the hands of the people who found it, to rethink the role of government; to get out of businesses it doesn't belong in. . . .'' My bill, H.R. 716, the ``Freedom from Government Competition Act'' and S. 314 by Senator Thomas, would require each agency of the Federal Government to obtain goods or services from the private sector through ordinary and appropriate Federal acquisition processes if a competition between the government agency and the private sector results in a better value in contractor performance. I want to make that clear. In past sessions of Congress, my bill followed the old 1955 policy that the government should not compete. Senator Thomas and I modified our bills in this Congress to inject the concept of competition between the government and private sector on a level playing field. This was suggested by GAO, OMB, government employee unions and many others. The concept of public-private competitions is also championed by the books ``Reinventing Government'' and ``Banishing Bureaucracy'' by David Osborne, and in the Administration's National Performance Review. So there should be bipartisan support for this idea. Our bill, as well as your committees' draft substitutes, establish important exemptions, including activities where: <bullet> Lin-house performance is necessary for national defense, <bullet> Lthe activity is so inherently government in nature that it is in the public interest to require performance in-house, <bullet> La declared national emergency, or <bullet> Lthere is no capable private source. When we look for ways to cut the size of government, we should look first at those activities which can be done by the private sector. There is no reason for Federal employees to design roads and buildings or do surveying and mapping when there are architecture engineer firms and other private sector professionals that can do this work by contract. There is no reason for agencies to operate motor pools when maintenance of cars can be done by private contractors. There is no reason for the government to operate laboratories or computer centers, when the private sector can do it more efficiently. There is no reason for the taxpayers to pay the salaries of Federal employees to operate cafeterias, guard posts, perform janitorial services, painting, printing, electrical work, and scores of other activities that can be obtained from the private sector, including and especially small businesses, woman-owned businesses and minority enterprises, if those services can be performed better, cheaper and faster in the private sector. I believe we can and should enact H.R. 716. I believe that when private enterprise is permitted to compete in the marketplace for the right to win a contract to perform a commercial-type service or provide goods for the Federal Government, that competition will result in the best value for money. And that is what the taxpayers demand and deserve. I commend you for the leadership you have shown. I appreciate this hearing. I strongly support the direction you are going in improving the bill I first introduced. You are making it a better bill. Let me end with a story. As you know, I have the honor of chairing the Aviation Subcommittee of the House Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure. Fixed wing air flight began with the Wright Brothers in 1903 in Kitty Hawk, North Carolina. Airplanes developed in the ensuing years and air flight became an important part of World War I. The Post Office Department realized the benefits of air flight and worked with the Army Signal Corps to test the concept of air mail service. In 1910, Congress enacted the Air Mail bill to determine the feasibility of scheduled air transport of mail. The tests were a success. By 1918, it was recognized that this was a civilian, not military function, and the service was transferred to the Post Office. In 1925, Congress looked forward to turning Post Office air mail routes over private operators-- I do not think the words privatization or contracting out or outsourcing were used in those days. But legislation known as the Kelly Act was passed to authorize the Post Office to negotiate the transfer of air mail routes to commercial operators through competitive bidding. A man named Walter Varney operated a small air-taxi operation known as Varney Air Lines. He bid on a contract to carry mail by air between Elko, Nevada and Pasco, Washington via Boise, Idaho. He won the contract and successfully operated the route. Another route was won by Eddie Hubbard and Philip Johnson. Those experiments in government contracting not only established Air Mail as a service, but gave way to the creation of America's great private airline and aircraft industries. You see, Varney Air Lines is now known as United Air Lines and Mr. Hubbard and Mr. Johnson joined with a Seattle businessman named William Boeing to become officers of the Boeing Corporation. Mr. Chairman, how many innovative, risk-taking small business men and women are there across America just waiting for the chance to grow, flourish, create jobs and become the future United Air Lines and Boeings. It can all start with a single government-contract. Our predecessors in Congress had the vision to contract for air mail service. I hope we will have the vision to create thousands of new opportunities for a new generation of Americans in the new millennium. That is what this legislation is all about. __________ PREPARED STATEMENT OF HON. STENY H. HOYER, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF MARYLAND Chairman Brownback, Chairman Horn, Ranking Member Lieberman, Ranking Member Kucinich and Members of the Joint Subcommittees, I want to thank you for the opportunity to address you this afternoon. As a Member of Congress who represents nearly 60,000 Federal employees I have some serious concerns with the House draft legislation entitled ``Competition in Commercial Activities Act'' and its Senate counterpart the ``Fair Competition Act.'' I'd like to take just a few moments to point out some problems I see with the draft legislation. My first concern is that the premise of both bills is that there are too many Federal employees and that the private sector is being unnecessarily excluded from work currently being performed by the public sector. Both these premises are false. Since the enactment of the Workforce Restructuring Act the government has eliminated 320,000 positions. The Federal Government is the smallest since the Kennedy administration. Additionally, as a percentage of the total workforce, the Federal component is the smallest since 1931. The second premise that the private sector is being shut out is also false. The fact is that the Federal Government already contracts out with the private sector at least $120 billion a year; fully $12 billion more than the entire Federal payroll including pay and benefits. In fact, according to OMB in its 1994 report on contracting practices, it found that the acquisition of services from the private sector is the ``fastest growing area of procurement.'' Clearly this legislation would cause a significant increase in the amount of Federal activities performed by, and money spent on, contractors. Unfortunately, contract oversight is currently not being managed as well as it should. According to OMB's testimony before the Civil Service Subcommittee this January, we have no idea how many contractors the Federal Government employs, which agencies they work for, where they work, or how much they are paid. Both OMB and GAO have been very critical of the Federal Government's contract management. Just last week, DOD's Inspector General testified before the Senate Armed Service Committee that DOD paid $76.50 each for nearly 2,000 screws that usually sell for only 57 cents a piece at a hardware store. I'm sure that Bobby Harnage, Bob Tobias and Mike Styles can provide you with even more examples of poor oversight and abuse. The legislation would also require agencies to create a ``contractor catalogue'' at taxpayer expense. Any function not deemed inherently governmental would be reviewed for contracting out with 5 years. Aside from the tremendous expense and effort this would require, the bills allow contractors as ``interested parties'' to challenge omissions from the list of commercial activities. Regrettably, public interest groups, unions, and the general public are not allowed to challenge an agency's decision to list an inherently governmental function on the commercial activities list. The Senate draft would go even further. It gives contractors the right to challenge omissions in the U.S. Court of Federal claims. This provision has the potential of hamstringing agencies under a mountain of contractor lawsuits. Notwithstanding my ardent support of Federal employees and the outstanding service they perform. I recognize that the private sector can, and often does, perform some work at less cost and better quality than the public sector. However, contracting out is not a panacea and this legislation is a solution in search of a problem. Competition is already taking place. It needs to be conducted in a manner that provides the taxpayer with the best value while allowing Federal employees to compete on a level playing field. Senator Brownback. Our first panel of witnesses will be Ed DeSeve, OMB Acting Deputy Director for Management; Skip Stitt, former Deputy Mayor of the City of Indianapolis, who is here to testify on behalf of Mayor Steven Goldsmith. They will be our two panelists on this next panel. I believe the House has them sworn in. Mr. Horn. Unlike the Senate, our tradition is to give the oath to all witnesses, except Members, gentlemen. Do you swear the testimony you are about to give these joint Subcommittees is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God? Mr. DeSeve. I do. Mr. Stitt. I do. Mr. Horn. The clerk will note that both voted in the affirmative. Senator Brownback. Thank you very much, gentlemen, for joining us today. We appreciate your willingness to come here and testify on your concerns and interests and, hopefully support, ultimately for this bill. With that, Mr. DeSeve, I would be happy to give you the floor. Thank you for joining us. TESTIMONY OF G. EDWARD DeSEVE,\1\ ACTING DEPUTY DIRECTOR FOR MANAGEMENT, U.S. OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET Mr. DeSeve. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am glad to be back. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ The prepared statement of Mr. DeSeve appears in the Appendix on page 65. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am here to discuss proposed revisions to S. 314, currently being cited as the Fair Competition Act of 1998, and to H.R. 716, currently being cited as the Competition in Commercial Activities Act of 1998. We share with you the goal of seeking the most efficient and cost-effective source for the provision of commercial support activities required by the Federal Government. Five years ago this month, the President announced and the Vice President led an effort to fundamentally change the way government operates. At the time, it seemed almost impossible. Red tape, poor financial management systems, rigid hierarchies, poor performance incentives, a procurement system in desperate need of repair, systemic problems in our ability to acquire and integrate information technology and senseless rules and procedures separated Federal employees from managers, separated managers from their missions, their responsibilities and their employees, and separated the taxpayer from their government. Today, reinventing government is the longest-running, most dramatic and most successful government reform effort in our history. Together, with you, we have streamlined our infrastructure, eliminated business lines, created partnerships with our employees to contribute to reform, eliminated red tape, changed business practices, eliminated duplication, and, yes, opened our commercial support activities to significantly expanded levels of competition. As of the end of fiscal year 1997, the administration had cut the civilian Federal work force by over 316,000 employees, creating the smallest Federal work force in 35 years, and as a share of total civilian employment, the smallest Federal work force since 1931. Almost all of the 14 Cabinet departments have cut their work forces. Only Justice and Commerce have growing work forces. Through these and other reinvention efforts, the administration has saved $137 million over these past 5 years. The key to this success in working together with you, because many of these were legislative accomplishments, not simply administrative accomplishments, has been our ability to overcome the rhetoric and work together to identify needed reforms. In our view, the House and Senate drafts contain a number of important improvements over last year's Freedom from Government Competition Act. We appreciate that the revised bills no longer center on who may or may not be eligible to perform Federal work. Nothing is more ``unfair'' than to limit or otherwise arbitrarily exclude a viable offerer, public or private, from the competitive process. Each of us seeks to expand the level of competition for both in-house and contracted work in an effort to improve quality and reduce the cost of services to the taxpayer. This process works. The differences that remain are not about goals, but, rather, are about how best to achieve them. Contracting out is a tool, a tool for downsizing, a tool for streamlining, and a tool for better performing work. In the Defense Department, for example, over 150,000 full- time-equivalent employees have been scheduled for competition with the private sector over the next 5 years. DOD has realized that given its budget pressure and the need to continue its mission that it is going to significantly utilize the A-76 process during this period. Any legislation should contribute to this process and move it forward. Since we do not have a single bill to react to, let me discuss some of the fundamental principles that a final bill should embody, including some aspects that we hope could be avoided. First, the government must be permitted to choose the alternative, public or private, which is most cost effective, and in the best interest of the taxpayer. Second, any legislation should avoid judicial involvement in management decision regarding whether or not to out-source. Third, the management documentation, employee participation, costing, and source selection rules for the competition must be well understood and able to be enforced and impartial. Fourth, source selection processes must permit efficient and effective competitions between public and private offerers for work presently being performed by the government or by a private contractor. Fifth, when an activity currently being performed in-house is converted to performance by contract, the in-house employees must be afforded the opportunity to compete to retain the work. Finally, we must acknowledge that out-sourcing is just a tool along with other reinventing and management improvement initiatives. It is not an end in itself, and we must not let out-sourcing delay or cause unnecessary administrative burdens on agencies who are using a variety of tools to meet their management challenges. We would also have concerns with legislation that required the head of an agency to undertake competitions in accordance with a schedule mandated in law. This is not a good idea. We are concerned that such schedules could be unduly burdensome and may preclude agencies from considering a mix of reinvention, reengineering, consolidation, privatization, evolution, and cost comparison efforts. In conclusion, I have tried to point out some of the principles that we would all want to draw on. We do not believe the proposed revisions to S. 314 and H.R. 716 will achieve the quality improvement or cost reduction goals that I know you are seeking. Federal employees are some of our Nation's most highly trained and dedicated employees. They operate within a complex system of rules, regulations, and laws. They respond to a vast array of missions, public concerns, and operational requirements. They deserve, as does the private sector, the opportunity to compete for their jobs on a fair and level playing field. This means that the managerial complexities of a public-public and public-private competition need to be recognized. We do not believe that this legislation meets that requirement. We are concerned that the proposed revisions can result in higher costs to the taxpayer. Thank you very much, and I would be happy to answer any questions that you might have. Senator Brownback. If I am understanding you, you say you have got a list of criteria that you think need to be met in this bill, but you do not think they are in this bill. You are willing to work with us on seeing if some of these items can be put in, and then you could be supportive of this bill. Is that right, Mr. DeSeve? Mr. DeSeve. Yes, sir. I think at this point, we oppose the bill, but we think that the ideas embodied in the bill are subject to being able to be worked together with you. Senator Brownback. OK. And have there been ongoing discussions at this point in time? Mr. DeSeve. Yes. Senator Thomas alluded to one even last week where we met with the Senator and his staff for that purpose. Senator Brownback. Good. Glad to hear that those are taking place. Mr. Stitt, thank you very much for joining us, and the microphone is yours. TESTIMONY OF SKIP STITT,\1\ FORMER DEPUTY MAYOR, CITY OF INDIANAPOLIS, TESTIFYING ON BEHALF OF HON. STEVEN GOLDSMITH, MAYOR, CITY OF INDIANAPOLIS Mr. Stitt. Mr. Chairman, Chairman Horn, and Members of the Subcommittee. My name is Skip Stitt, and I am here today on behalf of the Indianapolis Mayor, Steven Goldsmith. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Goldsmith submitted by Mr. Stitt appears in the Appendix on page 72. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- For most of the last 6 years, I had the privilege of managing the Mayor's Competitive Government Initiative in Indianapolis. I am pleased to provide this testimony to the Subcommittee as part of its consideration of the Fair Competition Act of 1998. When the Mayor was elected 6 years ago, he ran on an aggressive platform of privatization. Over the years, we have modified that preliminary platform into a rigorous public- private competition model. The model requires head-to-head competition between public and private sector providers. In Indianapolis, services that have been subjected to competition include the operation of the Indianapolis International Airport, our wastewater treatment plants, and our sewer collection system, fleet service operations, printing, copying, filling potholes and solid waste collection. After 75 competitions, these efforts have generated savings of nearly $420 million. The number of city workers, excluding police officers and firefighters, has been reduced dramatically in Indianapolis. Nonetheless, no union employees have lost a job as a result of our competition efforts. Employee grievances in several competed areas have actually fallen by as much as 90 percent, and workplace injuries in several competed areas have been reduced dramatically as well. We believe the central focus of this bill, that focus being competition, is appropriate. We have found no better tool to help control the cost to government services, while at the same time ensuring their quality in Indianapolis. We would also concur with your efforts to break up the Federal monopoly on service provision, but to still let Federal employees compete for that work. As someone who has been in the trenches of the competitive government effort for 6 years at the municipal level, let me make a few general comments about the bill. We operate on the assumption and the belief in Indianapolis that government is full of very good people, most of whom are caught in very bad systems. The regulations that will inevitably be promulgated to implement this bill will need to be very simple, very concise, and focus on results rather than processes. By reducing the rules and regulations, while simultaneously increasing the decisionmaking authority and flexibility of your talented employees, we believe you will see enormous benefits, irrespective of whether the work is ultimately provided privately or by incumbent employees. Second, this bill and your efforts will likely be in vain unless there is a very strong commitment at the top of your organization to competition and smaller government. We have studied many, many competition efforts around the world and have yet to find one that has been successful without strong leadership at the top. To fulfill that need and to serve as an adjunct to the efforts outlined in this legislation, Congress may even consider developing its own list of activities for competition. This bill also specifically addresses the need to develop systems that support the make-or-buy decisionmaking process. Doing this correctly will be essential to your progress. These systems will likely include activity-based costing or a similar costing methodology, as well as rigorous performance measurement systems that focus on quality and quantity goals for services. Next, be sure to recognize that your incumbent employees are a tremendous and extraordinary resource. We would encourage you to be very thoughtful, where transitions occur, to pay attention to employee needs, to salary ranges, to benefits, and similar activities. In Indianapolis, we also found that it was important to reward employee performance when they produced, competed, and won. Nothing got city employees more focused on the bottom line and on serving customers than when we implemented an incentive pay plan funded with operating savings they had identified. Next, we would encourage you to connect these cost-saving and service-enhancement efforts to positive outcomes. In Indianapolis, we used the savings from our competition efforts to lower our property tax rate and put more police officers on the street. I anticipate you will find, as we did, that most citizens care very little about the concept of competition, but they care a lot about safe streets, low taxes, and high-quality government services. Next, I would encourage you not to get caught in the intellectual trap that lowing the cost of services will necessarily lead to lower quality. Our experience with competition in Indianapolis, when it is done right, has indicated that it is possible in some circumstances to spend less and still get more. Next, this bill excludes activities involving fewer than 10 full-time employees. I understand and appreciate your emphasis on larger budgets. However, one of the most productive byproducts of our competition effort was the positive effect it had on small, minority and women-owned businesses who competed for and won many of these contracts. We would encourage you to consider ways to extend more Federal market opportunities to these small businesses. Early on, some Indianapolis vendors confidentially expressed concerns about our process. Many of these concerns were eliminated once the vendor community saw our commitment to continual, open, rigorous, fair, and comprehensive competition. Although I do not have an answer for how you might protect against this, I would anticipate that some Federal service vendors might likewise be reluctant early on to challenge an omission from the list of activities open to competition. There may also be a concern over the increase in the number of bid protests that would result from an increased number of competitions. As you think both about this bill and about the regulations that will be promulgated to implement it, I would encourage you to focus very carefully on creating an open and public process that maximizes competitive opportunities, minimizes disputes, and eliminates politics from the decisionmaking process. We also believe it is important to separate staff procurement decisions from staff production decisions. Our experience has shown that it is very difficult for an incumbent administrator to remain unbiased in a make-or-buy procurement decision when their organization both consumes and produces the good or service. The final point is a comment with respect to A-76. The bill discusses exempting certain A-76 cost comparisons from this process. While we would not argue with that exemption, we feel that A-76 more often frustrates competition than facilities competition. Our experience in successfully privatizing the Indianapolis-based Naval Air Warfare Center, which was done outside of the A-76 process, generally supports that conclusion. We believe the Fair Competition Act of 1998 is one preliminary step in the process of improving the quality of government services, while at the same time lowering the cost. As a companion effort, we would suggest that it is important to identify the other legal, systemic, cultural, and organizational barriers that exist to improving further governmental efficiency. To that end, Mayor Goldsmith has previously suggested to the House leadership that a commission be formed specifically to identify obstacles to fair and open competition. We thank you for the opportunity to be here today and would be happy to answer any questions you may have. Senator Brownback. Thank you very much, Mr. Stitt, and thank you for coming out from Indianapolis to testify at the Subcommittee. What we will do is we will run the time clock on a 5-minute basis, and bounce back and forth, if that is all right. We will have another panel that will follow this one as well. So, if we can get the clock ticking here, we will make sure to keep it tight on time. Mr. DeSeve, I really appreciate you coming here, and your statement earlier that you would be willing to work with us on getting this pulled together. It strikes me that we are talking about the number of employees here involved, 316,000 fewer civilian employ- ees that you have already worked with, and, yet, half-a-million that are doing commercial type of work or non-inherently governmental work. We have got even some further distance to go along the track and the goal that you have, and certainly that this Congress would like to see taking place. So I think it really is important, if we can, to get this moving on forward and us collectively working together. The working days that we have in this Congress are not going to be long at length. So we need to really get this moving forward, if you folks can see fit to helping us out on that, or if the figures that Senator Thomas put together is fairly accurate of half-a-million employees involved. Mr. DeSeve. I think it is 475,000 at the last count in 1996. We will do another inventory this year, probably starting in about 30 days and lasting through the fall. You have to take out of that the number that the Defense Department is currently putting up for conversion or for review for competition at this point. So we will not know until we get the numbers back in October. People have always felt it was a conservative estimate, that is, on the low side, but you do have the DOD proposal to review for competition. We want to be very clear. We favor competition and reviewing these jobs for competition. At the end of the day, I think as Mr. Stitt has indicated, some of them may be retained in-house. About half the time when the jobs are competed, they are retained in-house. So what we want is a level playing field for competition on commercial activities. Senator Brownback. My concern was in looking through those numbers is that the Department of Defense--that one would think of as having generally a higher percentage of jobs that are inherently governmental--is the one that comes up with this enormous number of jobs that they say are not inherently governmental, and, yet, all these other agencies didn't come up with very many. I mean, it struck this observer of that information that the others really were not too forthcoming on their internal analysis. If you do not have the leadership at the top pushing it, it is going to be a tough row to hoe. Mr. DeSeve. Sure. Senator Brownback. So we are really going to need your help not only with the legislation, but with the implementation as this moves on forward. Mr. DeSeve. Yes. We will be happy to push it, as I say, during the inventory this year. One of the things about DOD, because they provide housing, because they provide commissary services, because they provide other forms of PX and other services, they kind of handle the soldier from beginning to end. They do a lot more things that are, in essence, commercial than a lot of the other civilian agencies. So you are right. You would expect more of the civilian agencies, but DOD is always going to be the leader in this because of their beginning-to-end service to the soldier. Senator Brownback. Don't you suspect that some of the other agencies did not quite look very sharply on some of these? We had a couple that did not even participate. So I would hope you would think so in those areas. Mr. DeSeve. I hate to guarantee you anything, but we will certainly heavily encourage 100-percent participation in the survey this time. Senator Brownback. I do not know if my time is up or not. It is like running a basketball game without a clock, but we will move on to the next one. Mr. Kucinich. Mr. Kucinich. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Horn, it is a pleasure to join you and Mrs. Maloney here. I am grateful to have a chance to be on this Subcommittee and to have the opportunity now to serve as the Ranking Member of the Government Management, Information, and Technology Subcommittee. I know how important the issues are which come before this Subcommittee, and I also know that part of the great debate which is reflected in this legislation here is considered to be pretty much over. Listening to the testimony of Mr. DeSeve, quoting you, it is really not about goals, but how to achieve them; that Federal employees are some of the Nation's most highly trained and dedicated employees. They operate within a complex system of rules, regulations, and laws. They respond to a vast array of missions, public concerns, and operational requirements. They deserve, as does the private sector, the opportunity to compete for their jobs on a fair and level playing field. I really understand where that is coming from, and because I do, I would like to pose this question, Mr. Chairman, just to everyone here, for that matter. You can all answer in the silence of your manifest positions. I do not think the debate is over, with all due respect, Mr. DeSeve. I say that with 30 years of involvement in public life, off and on as an office-holder. I do not think the debate is over. So let me bring the ants to the picnic. You talk about it is not about goals, but how to achieve them. I think that there needs to be a debate again about what the proper role of government is because I would contend that the role of government is distinct from the role of the private sector. The role of government is to provide a service, and taxpayers pay a lot of money to make sure they get service. The role of the private sector is to make a profit. Now, I am sure in some unique situations, those two goals may be mutually inclusive, but often we will find that they are not. We see in the GAO's report on the Department of Energy's contract management which put them in 1990 at the high-risk series. We know the Department of Energy contracts out 91 percent of over $19 billion in obligations in the 1995 fiscal year. We have got the Department of Defense contract management, same thing, high-risk series. We have got the Committee on Government Operations in 1991 issuing a report on major aerospace contractors, problems with falsification and fraudulent testing. Now, my background is in municipal government, and I know that people want to make sure that the garbage is picked up, that the potholes are filled, that the police respond when people call. Those are all things that people expect from government, and when we start contracting out services wholesale, it is illusory to think that suddenly we are going to see an increase in service at a reduced cost. What is more likely to happen and what is a more in- structive paradigm is the HMO paradigm. Whereas, we transmitted to HMOs in medical care, services have been cut and then profits of the industry have gone up. Now, I think there is a legitimate role in some places for the private sector in participation with government, but when we start from a presumption that it is not about goals, but it is about how to achieve them, you are leaping over this whole debate about what the purpose of government is. Frankly, Senator Brownback, my feeling is that when we view government as the enemy here, government's bad politics, bad public employees, we are missing an opportunity to refresh ourselves about the purpose of government in itself, which is to provide service and it is to be responsive and it is to have the public have direct control. Privatization changes all that, and so I make that as a statement. You have already answered my question. I know how you feel about it. I know what your goals are. I understand the Indianapolis model, but I am letting you know there is at least one Member of the House of Representatives who thinks differently on this, and I will be continuing to provide you with a challenge to show me--and I am not from Missouri, I am from Ohio--to show me as to where the benefits are because I remain unconvinced, and I am not convinced that this just is not another way to relieve the American people of the assets of their government and increase the price they pay for it. So I thank you for listening to me. Thank you. I yield back. Senator Brownback. Congressman Horn for 5 minutes. Mr. Horn. Let me ask the gentleman from OMB, Mr. DeSeve, how do you feel about the Defense programs in a number of areas? For example, should they be contracting out things that relate directly to the readiness of the fleet? Should they be handling critical ammunition? Where would you draw the line over there in defense? Mr. DeSeve. We actually try to let the Defense experts draw the line, Mr. Chairman. We ask them to distinguish between inherently governmental functions and those functions which are essentially commercial activities. There are some functions which the Defense Department deems as core to their mission, which they do contract out in a commercial way as well, but we do not try in an A-76 to come in and say this one is and this one is not. We try to leave that to the folks at the Defense Department. Mr. Horn. How would you feel as a citizen if apparently OMB is not going to review judgments in the Defense Department when you have got ships of the Pacific Fleet that need new ammunition supplies? Do you want them contracted out to a private agency where the employees could go on strike at any time? Mr. DeSeve. I guess, again, even as a private citizen, I would look to my admirals and generals to try to do the thing that they thought best along the way. I would not try to second-guess them. Wellington said, ``I can either fight a war or report to the clerks in London,'' and Wellington did a pretty good job in the war that he fought. So I use the judgment of the admirals and the generals and those who are entrusted with making those decisions and rely upon them, even as a citizen. Mr. Horn. Well, ultimately, the commander-in-chief is responsible, not the admirals and the generals. Now, you happen to be in the agency that handles the budget, and hopefully one of these days will handle the management of the Executive Branch of the Federal Government. Now, it seems to me, you are working for the President, not the generals and admirals, and that is as it should be in a constitution that provides for civilian authority over the generals and the admirals. Mr. DeSeve. Correct. And one of the things you have told me, sir, is that I will never get along very well unless I delegate. I have heard that from your own lips in another room. So what we try to do is say to Secretary Cohen, to Deputy Secretary Hamre, to Controller Lynn and others who are the civilian oversight, make sure that, as the generals and admirals make these decisions, you provide oversight. We will certainly comment if they come to us and say we would like to do this, we would like to do that, and so, in a specific situation, we certainly give them guidance, but, as a general matter, we do not go in and oversee those decisions. Mr. Horn. One of the criterion in this whole discussion for 40 years has been what is inherently governmental and what is not inherently governmental. Mr. DeSeve. Correct. Mr. Horn. Now, I would say that when you are handling nuclear weapons and when you are handling ammunition that might explode everywhere, if you do not have skilled people doing it, I do not understand why that is not considered inherently governmental. Mr. DeSeve. I want to go to your ``have skilled people doing it.'' I think skilled people could be either contractors or public employees. There is no skill in handling either ammunition that is certainly made by private contractors or nuclear weapons that are made by contractors. It is very often the case, if you go to NASA where rockets are launched, but it is difficult to tell the skills of the contractors from the skills of the public employees. Mr. Horn. Well, public employees and private employees all need a lot of training to do their job. Mr. DeSeve. Correct. Mr. Horn. I guess my question is, when you have people that have dedicated 10, 20, or 30 years of their life and they have had no accidents that would explode and blow up a city near it, that would be a pretty good record, wouldn't you say? Mr. DeSeve. Yes, sir, and we want to make sure that those public employees have every availability to continue that good record of service to their government. We feel very strongly about that. And the bills before us limit that ability. If there is work that is currently in the private sector, a public offeror would not be able to make a bid on that work, even though they had traditionally done that work. We think that is wrong. We think those public employees in those circumstances should be able to bid. Mr. Horn. One of the things government employees--and I realize this has been intruded upon at the municipal level--do not do is strike, and that is very important. It seems to me, when you are waging a war and you have ships of all varieties come in to get ammunition put on or to get it taken off if they have to be repaired, since you could not have people with welding and all the rest that goes on, on a ship, and having charged ammunition in storage there. Wouldn't that kind of situation concern you? Mr. DeSeve. It certainly would, and we would hope that the contract, if it were a contract item, would absolutely preclude that sort of thing for national defense purposes. Mr. Horn. Well, I hope when you go back to your office in my favorite building in Washington, which is the Executive Office Building, built under Ulysses Grant's administration and a great building--and any of you that have not seen it, you can tour it on Saturday now and you will see Mr. DeSeve and all the Presidential assistants in very nice areas over there--we hope it promotes thinking. Mr. DeSeve. We try not to work Saturday, but we usually fail. We usually fail. Mr. Horn. We hope it promotes thinking, but when you go back there, you might ask the U.S. Navy why are they trying to contract out at the Seal Beach Ammunition Depot, and by what standard of safety and concern do they have to do it. I think that is a typical example of where some people finally get around to doing something and then they do the wrong thing, not the right thing. [The information referred to follows:] Insert supplied for questions 1. The Navy announced a competitive A-76 study of Ocean Terminal operations at Naval Ordnance Center Seal Beach on 15 January 1998. 2. A Naval Ordnance Center is full service activity for the storage, assembly and maintenance of Naval ordnance. A Naval Magazine is a smaller facility principally used for storage of ordnance. As a general matter, neither a navel ordnance center or a naval magazine is considered an inherently government operation. As these types of ordnance, including our nuclear arsenals, are manufactured and delivered to us by contractors, the handling of such materials has not been a safety issue nor is it considered inherently governmental. 3. This effort is similar to the A-76 conversion of the Ocean Terminal functions at Naval Magazine, Leuleulei, Hawaii to contract performance. A contract operation was put in place in 1985. This function has remained in the private sector since then. 4. There have been concerns expressed regarding contract performance of these kinds of activities. The Navy remains satisfied, however, with the contract work at Naval Magazine Leuleulei, During Operation Desert Storm the Naval Magazine at Leuleulei, like other mobilization and shipping points in the military infrastructure, was at it's busiest level in memory. One of the numerous ships the Leuleulei Naval Magazine contractor was tasked with loading was the ``Cape Judy.'' This was a break bulk ship which was to be loaded with 5''/54 gun ammunition. This ship was delayed approximately 2 weeks beyond it's scheduled sailing date. This was the only significant delay during this period at Leuleulei. To load this ship the contractor had to clean the ship to the cleanliness standards required for ordnance since the ship had previously carried a cargo of rice which had spilled everywhere. The contractor then had to remove temporary bulkheads within the cargo holds and build new ones which were suitable for ordnance. Then, finally, the ship had to be loaded with the ammunition. The contractor did not pay a performance penalty for this delay as it was caused principally by the Navy setting an overly optimistic schedule for the load. The Navy actually paid the contractor a $126,000 adjustment as compensation for the additional work and materials used building up the interior bulkheads. Mr. DeSeve. And I would be delighted to go back and look at that. I have heard about that today for the first time, and I will be delighted to address that concern. And we will formally give you an answer as to what is going on there as quickly as we can. Mr. Horn. Good. Thank you very much. Senator Brownback. Thank you. Congresswoman Maloney. Mrs. Maloney. Thank you very much. I would like to ask Mr. DeSeve--you have testified about the success of Vice President Gore's Reinventing Government, where we now have the smallest work force since 1931 with a savings, you said, of $137 billion and a reduction in our work force of 316,000 people. I would like to ask you and Mr. Stitt how did you achieve this, and is the method that you are doing, which is really the goal that Mr. Stitt mentioned, is we need a smaller, more accountable, professional work force that gets the job done professionally? Just comment on your approach and Mr. Stitt's approach, both of you. How did you believe this success, and do you need a competitive bid to make it happen? And, second--you obviously do not because you already made it happen--I would like to touch on the question that was raised by Mr. Kucinich which is really quality control. One thing with Federal workers, you have control over the quality of work that is coming out of them, their honesty, the way they treat people, the way they get their job done, and how do you control that with a private contractor? And I think that all of us bring to this table some of our past experiences in government. I recall in New York City, we at one point trying to drive up our collections, something that Chairman Horn and I have worked on, a debt collection, we contracted out to private contractors, and they used such extreme cruel methods that really violated the sense of decency, even for New Yorkers, that we had to curtail that, and we now have a lot of debate now in Congress with Vice President Gore and Mr. Clinton talking about a consumer bill of rights so that HMOs don't go over that fine line, and, truly, when you have a government worker, you can control the end product. So how do you control that if you are going to a contracted-out type of situation? So those two questions, I would like you both to comment on them. Mr. DeSeve. OK. Let me take them in order. First, one of the things we tried to do in reinventing government was to decide what things we needed to do. If you are going to contract something out, if you really do not need to do it at all, you have achieved a significant savings by not doing it. What do I mean? If we look at the investigations function in OPM, we decided that that was not inherently governmental. We did not even need to be in that business anymore. Training was the same way. We did not need to be in the training business. There are a lot of people at the Cato Institute, the Brookings Institution, and colleges and universities who can do training. There are private sector offerors who can conduct investigations as they are needed. So we did not need to be in that business. We simply got out of the business; in one case, through an ESOP, which Chairman Horn and Mr. Mica were very helpful in creating. In the second case, we simply divested the training function. It was picked up first by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, and now I guess others are doing that as well. So we went through--we identified those things which we did not need to do anymore, and also those things which we could do with fewer people, whether those people were in-house or outside the house, contracted out, whether it is the Department of Housing and Urban Development, GSA. We could go down the whole list. There are fewer people because we do not need---- Mrs. Maloney. So, if I could just--so you really were accomplishing the intent of this bill by self-determining those places where you feel could be contracted out or done cheaper, but the difference is this bill would force you possibly to contract out in areas that you do not think it would be a cost benefit or result benefit for the American taxpayer. Is that a correct---- Mr. DeSeve. It would take away the discretion of a manager, to some extent, and force him by using valuable staff time to conduct according to a schedule, a set of cost comparisons and out-sourcings. He would have less time to spend in the other kind of reengineering that we believe has already yielded savings. Mrs. Maloney. So it would force the out-sourcing, whereas you have already been doing it. I think we have $900 billion in procurement now with the Federal Government? It is a huge number. Mr. DeSeve. Yes, it is. Mrs. Maloney. And--so go on. Mr. DeSeve. So what we tried to do is by reengineering and getting rid of some of the old functions and even devolving some of the functions to State and local governments. They have picked up a significantly greater role in combatting food stamp fraud, and they were happy to do that because they knew that they could prosper along the way. So EBT, which we have also talked about, electronic benefit transfer, enabled them to do things better and enabled us to eliminate certain kinds of functions we did not need to do. The second question you asked was about---- Mrs. Maloney. Could I ask, what are your further plans for reinventing government? Are you continuing to do this, or have you met your goals? Mr. DeSeve. No, we are continuing to do it. We are continuing to streamline. The President's Management Council, in its April meeting, will be talking about internally the various streamlining efforts. We have heard today that the Defense Department has, indeed, decided to contract out, or at least to expose to competition--not to contract out, but to expose to competition, and that is the thing we think is core. Other agencies are likely to make that same judgment. Once they have gotten down to the right functions, then they have to decide how to best perform those functions, and we are getting closer and closer to the right functions. Mrs. Maloney. Now, you mentioned that government had grown in two areas. One was Commerce, which is hiring really for the Census---- Mr. DeSeve. That is correct. Mrs. Maloney [continuing]. Which is once every 10 years. What was the other area you mentioned? Mr. DeSeve. The Justice Department. Both the Bureau of Prisons---- Mrs. Maloney. The Justice Department. Mr. DeSeve [continuing]. And the FBI have grown significantly---- Mrs. Maloney. I know. Mr. DeSeve [continuing]. And the Immigration and Naturalization Service. Mrs. Maloney. Right, and we hired 100,000 additional police officers, too. Mr. DeSeve. Right. Why don't I let Mr. Stitt comment on the first question, and then we will do the second. Mr. Stitt. The first question I had down: Is competition necessary? In Indianapolis, at the municipal level, we felt that it was. I have debated this issue for 6 years with both managers and my AFSCME colleagues. We have not found a tool that has been as effective as competition. We had a longstanding TQM program at the city for many years, which essentially yielded no results. So we think it was helpful in our community. Mrs. Maloney. May I ask for a clarification? Senator Brownback. Well, if we could get the witnesses to directly, quickly respond to your two questions, and then I think we will have to move it on. Mrs. Maloney. All right. Are you alone in this---- Senator Brownback. If you would like to change the question, we can---- Mrs. Maloney [continuing]. Or are there many---- Senator Brownback [continuing]. We can do it that way, then. Mrs. Maloney [continuing]. Municipalities doing the same thing that you are doing? Mr. Stitt. There are a number of municipalities around the country that are looking at the concept of managed competition. I think Indianapolis has probably done more, and done it more quickly than other communities. But it is something that we are seeing more and more at the municipal level, particularly in utility service areas. Mrs. Maloney. What about quality control? Senator Brownback. Well, let us go back to another round of questions. Mrs. Maloney. OK. Mr. Horn. Yes. I would like to get into it at some time. Senator Brownback. I want to go to Congressman Horn and then we will go back to Congressman Kucinich and then back to you again for questions. Mr. Horn. Let me ask you. You mentioned, Mr. DeSeve, that there were two agencies that did not file a plan because they have not had a cut in civilian employment, and that was Justice and Commerce? Mr. DeSeve. That was not the reason they did not file. Those are happenstances. Mr. Horn. And they have a growing work force, you said? Mr. DeSeve. They have a growing work force, but that does not relate to their not filing a plan. Mr. Horn. Well, I assume Justice's growing work force is based on all the independent counsels that have been appointed by the court. So I can understand that one. I look at NOAA, which is 60 percent of the budget of the Department of Commerce, which I still want to get rid of--not NOAA, just the rest of the Department--put it out and privatize a lot of it, which reminds me of the Coast and Geodetic Survey; 35 or 40 years ago when I was on the Senate staff, I remember we had--and this is before the Eisenhower--yes, it was a little after the Eisenhower Declaration. It was 1960, 1962. We were after the Coast and Geodetic Survey to contract things out because they were simply duplicating which was already being done by the private sector. The map-makers would remember the firm. I think it is Jepson in Denver, Colorado. And the reason we got into it, it was a subsidiary of the Los Angeles Times. That was my first taste of where government employees were doing work that is not inherently governmental; that can be done just as well in the private sector, and it was not being done. I just wonder if the OMB has looked at Commerce, when they do not file any plans, and say, ``Hey, the little bit you have got left around here, there are some things that could be contracted out.'' Mr. DeSeve. I want to assure you that I will work very hard, and we will ask Secretary Daley to make sure that a plan is filed in this round of evaluations. Mr. Horn. Thank you. Senator Brownback. Mr. Kucinich. Mr. Kucinich. I would like to use this time to continue my homily about the importance of democratic control of the process as exemplified by the systems of service which government delivers. The whole concept in this country of a United States presupposes there is some unity in the States, and we were brought together out of a community of interest. I mean, I happen to believe that we, in fact, have an American community. Government systems at every level reflect the needs of the community. That is why those systems of support are organized to extend services. The ability of government to control those services is the ability of government to make sure that its structures maintain democratic values. We cannot look to the corporate world for democratic values, even though we may have many fine leaders in the corporate world who may practice democratic principles in their daily life. We cannot look to the corporate sector to secure democratic values. We have to look to the government and the execution of the laws and the political process to do that. So, when we have drawn an equivalency here between the public sector and the private sector and, in effect, the equation has put us in a position where we have equated the work of the public sector and the work of the private sector, we are basically ignoring that they have two separate goals that are often mutually exclusive as opposed to what I said earlier, where there might be some areas where their goals might be inclusive mutually. This is about goals, and you may have your plans to go ahead and execute private contracts, but to tell government employees that they have to start competing for their jobs is in and of itself threatening not to just those employees and their jobs, but it threatens the entire democratic system of which they are a part. I view public employees in a slightly different way. I do not see them as widgets in some kind of autonomic machinery. I see government employees as being an extension of democratic values. We then have some control over that system. Now, the honorable gentleman from Indianapolis mentioned the contracting out of utility services. I will tell you, and remind you, that there are over 2,000 municipally owned utilities in this country, and one of the reasons we have that is not only so people can have lower electric rates, which they do, without any exception, and in those cases where they do not have lower rates, it is usually because of the interference of the private sector, but also because they have some control over the system. They have the ability to be able to have input in the process. This whole idea of privatization, I would suggest to you, notwithstanding the urgings of the administration, needs to be looked at again in terms of the implication it has for democratic values. In the last few decades, there has been an attack on government to cause people to be estranged from their government, but if this is, in fact, a government of the people, by the people, and for the people, as Lincoln's prayer was so many years ago, then, in fact, when we attack government, we are attacking ourselves. And unlike the challenge of Poto that we have met the enemy and he is us, it is up to us to recognize that this is our government. We can make it work, not by dismantling it piece by piece, but by finding ways for those systems to work in order to get the people to do their job better, not by threatening them with loss of their job, but by showing them how their jobs are essential to the unfolding of the democratic process. As a Member of this Subommittee and as a Member of the Congress, I am going to continue to insist that we review again and again the underlying premises which promote wholesale privatization in the government because, in a democratic society, government has to be there to protect democratic values. We cannot look to the corporate sector to protect democratic values. I yield back. Senator Brownback. Thank you very much. I would note that the bill has nothing to do with the role of government. It is just that if there are activities which could be done by a contractor, the agency should determine how to get the best deal, is what the structure of the bill has tried to be. So I am hopeful we are being sensitive to your point of view on this, and that we are just trying to get the best deal we possibly can here. Congresswoman Maloney. Could this be our last question? We have a huge panel after this one. Mrs. Maloney. Back to my last question, quality control, how do you maintain quality control with a private contractor? Mr. Stitt. I can only speak to our experience in Indianapolis, and as we have been visited over the years by many folks who talk about our competition initiative, one of the things we have told them is that it is not a cookie-cutter approach. What worked in Indianapolis may not work in Miami or the Twin Cities. We inherited a system in Indianapolis that, although it was regarded as one of the country's most well-run cities, it had some pretty serious challenges. There was no effective quality assurance, quality control mechanism over local government when we got there. There was very, very little performance data, and as I talked with municipalities and, quite frankly, State employees around the country, that is common. They do not know how much they produce or the quality of it in many circumstances. We set about developing a rigorous performance measurement system that asked those questions, what did we produce, what do our customers expect, and what is the quality we produce. We have used that as we have gone into the marketplace to ask employees and vendors to compete for that work. Our experience has been that post-competition, whether provided by public employees or a vendor, we generally see improvements in the quality of those services. And in cases where employees continue to provide that service, we established quality benchmarks, much like we would in a private vendor's contract. Today, we track on a monthly basis about 250 performance measures in our community. Mrs. Maloney. Could you cite some examples of services you contracted out that the employees, the government employees won? Mr. Stitt. Probably, the example that I am proudest of involves the Indianapolis Fleet Services Garage, a group of employees who maintain our 2,000-vehicle fleet. We asked them to go head-to-head with the best vendors in the country. They said, ``We will do that, but you have got to get some of these bureaucratic structures off our back. We cannot be in a system where it costs us more to buy a battery than it does the private vendor or it takes longer to get training done or a new employee brought in or the legal department will not let us do anything creative and entrepreneurial.'' They competed and won a 3-year contract to provide that service. They barely won that contract, I might add, and as part of their proposal to us, they asked us to implement an incentive plan that said if they out-perform that contract, they could share in the savings. We agreed to that, and the results were really quite remarkable. Grievances fell by about 80 percent. Time lost to injuries fell from about 6,000 hours a year to about 200 hours a year. Customer complaints dropped dramatically. We saw an increase in the number of line employees relative to managers. Productivity grew by several hundred hours per employee, and I have had the privilege of handing out incentive checks between $600 and $1,100 a year to that employee group, while still generating several million dollars of savings for taxpayers. Mrs. Maloney. It seems, Mr. Chairman, that both have very similar plans, with the only difference is that you are forcing--or this bill would force a competition whether or not there was a management decision, whether it was necessary or not. Is that correct? You are forcing a competition on everything that is ``commercial''? Whereas, Mr. DeSeve, if I heard you correctly, you are making de- cisions over what is, you think, something that can be reduced or contracted out or kept with government? So, in a sense, the bill could cost more money by forcing a competition if there is a belief that it should not take place or is not necessary. Is that an accurate statement, Mr. DeSeve, or not? Mr. DeSeve. I think that is what we have testified. We are concerned, especially with some of the rules and regulations that are inherent in the bill and the nature of judicial review of management decisions that we could end up in that kind of a situation. Mrs. Maloney. Do you agree, Mr. Stitt? Mr. Stitt. We did not implement a legislative or rulemaking system. We were a billion-and-a-half dollars in the hole and had a mayor who had promised not to raise property taxes. So we were pretty aggressive about this approach because we did not have another choice. We would prefer to create systems that drive performance. Mrs. Maloney. When did you start this approach? Mr. Stitt. Six years ago. Mrs. Maloney. Six years ago. Mr. Stitt. We preferred to change the systems in which employees work rather than legislate it; employee incentive plans, pay for performance, incentive pay, rigorous performance measures, and regular, routine and open public competition, with the exception of those areas that we deemed to be inherently governmental at the municipal level. Mrs. Maloney. Mr. DeSeve, you have had an outstanding success, reinventing government. I think it has not received the attention it should, from the public. I think it has been a tremendous success, and I know that OMB has really been the implementer in that program. Do you support this bill? Do you think this bill is helpful, or do you think it would be costly and problematic? What is your feeling on it, based on your years in government? Mr. DeSeve. First of all, I want to say that we really did try to form a partnership. Dr. Kelman is with us today, and will be testifying a little later with these Subcommittees, the Subcommittees we are before today. FASA, FARA, ITMRA, the Debt Collection Act, and GPRA are all cases. GMRA, which I will testify on next week in Mr. Horn's Subcommittee--they are all partnerships. So, we oppose elements of the bill as it stands today. We support the idea of competition, and when I refer to a goal, the goal I was referring to was on the first page of my statement. We share the goal of seeking the most efficient and cost-effective sources for the provision of commercial support activities required by the Federal Government to get the best deal for the taxpayer. That is what we are seeking to do, and we think that the way that the bill is structured, providing this kind of a legislative framework does not do that. Mrs. Maloney. Do you see a problem with quality control? Senator Brownback. We are at 5 minutes. So, if we could answer that one, and then let us go on from there. Mrs. Maloney. OK. Mr. DeSeve. What we try to do is we try to implement what are called performance-based service contracts, very similar to the no- tion that Mr. Stitt had, that it is inherent in the contract itself to specify the level of performance. We see recently, for example, the Department of Education competed a set of data centers and reduced their cost by more than 50 percent from the prior contract. It had been a private contractor. It stayed a private contractor, but the performance-basing made the difference. Mrs. Maloney. OK, thank you. Senator Brownback. Thank you both, gentlemen, very much for coming here. Mr. DeSeve. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Senator Brownback. We look forward to working with you. Mr. Stitt. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Senator Brownback. If we could call up our third panel: Bryan Logan, Chief Executive Officer of Earth Data International; Larry Trammel, Corporate Vice President and General Manager, Science Applications International Corp.; Douglas K. Stevens, Jr., Partner of Information Technology Services Group, under Grant Thornton, LLP, representing the U.S. Chamber of Commerce; Dr. Steve Kelman, Weatherhead Professor of Public Management, Harvard University; Robert Tobias, National President, The National Treasury Employees Union; Bobby Harnage, President of the American Federation of Government Employees; and Michael Styles, National President of Federal Managers Association. So the rest of the room is up and testifying. Could the witnesses all stand to be sworn in, please? Mr. Horn. Mr. Chairman, before I swear them in, let me just put two documents in the record with the previous portion. One is a letter from David M. Gentry, American Federation of Government Employees, AFL-CIO, at the Weapons Support Facility in Seal Beach. Since I raised the question of Seal Beach, I would like his letter by unanimous consent to be at the end of my question to Mr. DeSeve on that topic. The letter referred to follows: DRAFT LETTER FROM MR. GENTRY American Federation of Government Employees Affilliated with the AFL-CIO 16 March 1998 Local 2161, Weapons Support Facility P.O. Box 2340, Seal Beach, CA 90740 Dear We would like to communicate to you our concerns on the decision to open the Navy Ordnance Receipt, Storage, Segregation and Issue (RSS&I) Core functions for Commercial Activities (CA) Study, which consistently has been an inherently governmental function. As tax payers and Federal employees we understand the initiative to streamline government through competition with the private sector. However, we must register strong opposition to recent efforts by the Navy and Congress to outsource (contract out) critical core logistics capabilities. It is essential for the national defense that these capabilities be conducted by government personnel to ensure effective and timely response to a mobilization, national defense contingency situation and other emergency requirements. By contracting these capabilities out the United States Defense is vulnerable to contractor default, strike, or non-response. The Weapons Support Facility Seal Beach provides critical core logistics to the fleet. Specifically, we directly support the fleet by loading Naval ships with ordnance or munitions, such as Tomahawk weapons, at our facilities at Seal Beach, Port Hadlock, Concord and Fallbrook. The Nation cannot afford to become vulnerable because this capability is contracted by the private sector. The necessity to provide this critical service in the safest and most efficient manner for the Navy and the surrounding Community is the guiding principle that the employees of the Weapons Support Facility Seal Beach and its detachments have lived by for the past 50 years. History has shown that specific depots which were outsourced to contractors, failed to answer the bell when called upon during times of national defense. One such installation was the Naval Magazine located at Leuleulei, Hawaii. During Operation Desert Storm, the contractor at Leuleulei agreed to pay fines to the Navy, rather than load the ships destined for the Persian Gulf, in a timely, as scheduled manner. Leuleulei's ``economic'' decision adversely impacted the Navy's ability to prevail in the Persian Gulf crisis. At the same time, other Naval Weapons Stations operated by government civil service workers met the challenge, carried their load and aided the Navy in completing its mission. In addition to the Weapons Support Facility Seal Bach providing the Fleet critical core logistics, we continually strive to provide our services to the fleet in the most cost effective manner possible. We regularly bench mark our functions with the private industry and systematically look for ways to re-engineer our processes. We are a Naval working capital funded business oriented activity. As such, we have conducted re-engineering processes. Over the past 10 years we have re-engineered, streamlined, benchmarked, and implemented productivity improvements. As a government civil service manned activity, Weapons Support Facility Seal Beach is recognized as one of the ``best of class'' in Malcolm Baldridge National Quality Award criteria. Seal Beach, consecutively achieves the highest level of Safety and Customer Service during its years of operation. In addition, Seal Beach has achieved numerous citations and awards, the following are just a few: 1995 Hammer Award, Vice President Gore's Reinvention of Government 1995 Bronze Eureka Award, California equivalent of the Malcolm Baldridge Award 1996 Hammer Award 1996 Silver Eureka Award 1997 Silver Eureka Award Munitions Carrier's Superior Achievement Award We feel that this type of dedication, service, and integrity cannot be achieved by Outsourcing. A contractor will only provide minimal requirements and service at best. We strive for excellence. With your continued support of Federal employees we will assure that the Navy can meet its challenges today, tomorrow and in the future. We would like to extend an invitation to you to come and visit our world class facility. You will have an opportunity to see a streamlined government manned, operation. We would like to make an appointment to see you in the near future at your office if convenient. Sincerely, David M. Gentry __________ Mr. Horn. The other matter just came to my attention, which I find an excellent document. This is the Procurement Roundtable,\1\ and it happens to be chaired by a person we all respect, regardless of party, Elmer B. Stats, former Controller General of the United States, former member of the Old Bureau of the Budget, who knows more about government than, I guess, the next 20 people in this town. This document is also prepared under the acting chairmanship of the Procurement Roundtable, Frank Horton, a very distinguished former Member of Congress from New York. I would like unanimous consent to have this published at the end of the first panel. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ The document referred to above appears in the Appendix on page 346. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Senator Brownback. Without objection. Mr. Horn. It has some excellent ideas, and we will use them. Gentlemen, our tradition in the House is to swear all witnesses under oath. If you would, raise your right hands. Do you swear the testimony you are about to give the joint Subcommittees is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God? Mr. Logan. I do. Mr. Trammell. I do. Mr. Stevens. I do. Mr. Kelman. I do. Mr. Tobias. I do. Mr. Harnage. I do. Mr. Styles. I do. Mr. Horn. I will note that the seven witnesses have affirmed, and the clerk will enter that in the record. Senator Brownback. Thank you all very much for joining us. We will be on a 5-minute time frame. We have lights here. So the yellow light comes on when you have 1 minute left to go. There has been a request by Congresswoman Maloney that we have Dr. Kelman go first, as she has to leave and wanted to make sure--not that everybody's testimony isn't very important and needed, but she had a particular request for that. Mrs. Maloney. And we had not received his prepared statement in advance, so I do not know what he is going to say. Senator Brownback. So we have decided to go ahead and concede with that. It will be a 5-minute testimony, and then we will go ahead and start down the line. Welcome, all of you. I hope you do not feel slighted for us jumping out of order on this. We would like to keep your testimony pretty tight. We can take the full testimony into the record. So you can summarize, if you would like. Thank you very much for joining us. Dr. Kelman. TESTIMONY OF STEVE KELMAN,\1\ Ph.D., WEATHERHEAD PROFESSOR OF PUBLIC MANAGEMENT, HARVARD UNIVERSITY Mr. Kelman. You are putting a lot of pressure on me, but, all right, I will do my best. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Kelman appears in the Appendix on page 81. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Actually, I apologize I do not have a formal statement. The logistics are a little more complicated now. Back in academia, I am now answering my own telephones, and I have one-third of a staff-assistant time, stuff like that. So the logistics are a little bit more difficult. So I apologize. It is very nice to be back in front of the Subcommittee again. With any luck, I will do this in less than 5 minutes. I had just two big-picture messages that I wanted to try to communicate today regarding this bill and regarding the whole issue of competition and out-sourcing. The first is that I really do think that it is time to lower the level of rhetoric about out-sourcing and contracting out. I really do not believe that this is about do you like big government or do you like small government. It is not a question of big government or small government, whether the payroll checks for soldiers and other employees of the Defense Department are cut by government employees or by private sector employees. Nor is it a question, I think, of do you like or do not like the Federal work force. Luckily, I was in town today to be able to come and testify before the Subcommittee. I spent the morning interviewing front-line procurement professionals at the Census Bureau in the Department of Commerce for some research I am doing on procurement reform, and those folks I spoke with this morning, the front-line procurement professionals, are the kinds of people I got to know while I was in government. We have a fantastic Federal work force, and this is not about do you like Federal workers or don't you like Federal workers. I mean, the fact is the vast majority of out-sourcing that takes place in the United States takes place between business firms. It is commercial to commercial out-sourcing within the commercial world, not even involving government, where one commercial firm out-sources some work to another commercial firm, that is growing extremely rapidly in the private sector. If you read investment analysts, one big investment theme in the stock market right now is investing in companies that are in out-sourcing businesses, that out-source functions to other commercial companies, and the reason that out-sourcing is growing so rapidly commercial to commercial, again, just not involving the government, is managers. Executives of firms have increasingly realized that it is good management practice to stick as much as you can to your own core competency as an organization, to keep management time focused as much as possible on your core mission and your core responsibilities, and let the non-core responsibilities be taken over by other organizations who themselves have as a core competency in payroll, check-cashing, or things like that, which are not in the core competency or core mission of the organization that is doing the contracting out. So, for years, obviously--and we do not even think of this as contracting out--most commercial firms have contracted out writing advertising, and a lot of their legal services. These have taken place for decades, and in recent years, the amount of contracting out and out-sourcing within the commercial world has expanded dramatically. Let us take one very mundane example, and I take it because it involves a company that does not even do business with the Federal Government. There is a company called Carabiner International. It is very rapidly growing, publicly traded company. The mission of their company is to out-source meetings and conferences for private organizations, Ford Motor Company, or whatever. And what they do is they go to those organizations and say, ``Your core business is not running meetings and running conferences. That is what we specialize in. That is what we are good at,'' and, again, this company does, so far as I know, no business with the Federal Government. That is a very rapidly growing business. So the first point is this is about good management, and it should not be seen, in my view, as an ideological issue. Second, without having considered every word of the proposed bills as they have been revised, it does seem to me that the two bills, by and large, have done a good job walking a tightrope and walking a line between various bookend or extreme positions on this issue. I think that it is good that the revised bills make it possible for Federal workers to compete for these jobs. I think they should be allowed to compete for these jobs. I believe that when Federal workers compete, we do need to worry, and I think OMB's Circular A-76 revisions a few years ago made some progress on this, about proper accounting for indirect costs. I believe that the past performance of government entities should be taken into consideration in these competitions. One feature from a quick read that I do not like in the bill--and I agree with my former colleague, Ed DeSeve, on this--is the various judicial review provisions. I do not think it is necessary to have these management decisions second- guessed by any sort of judicial review. Last point, and I will be under the red light, I hope, is that we really need to make an effort as government and private, whether private business or private trade union folks, to try to manage this transition, as I think they have tried to do in Indianapolis, that when something is out-sourced, to hold the existing Federal work force harmless insofar as possible, through right-of-first-refusal provisions and other kinds of things. That is one area that I hope the Executive Branch, as the Executive Branch starts doing more out-sourcing, will continue to pay attention to. Thank you for your attention. Senator Brownback. Thank you very much, Dr. Kelman, and we will look forward to, hopefully, some questions and thoughts for you, well recognized in this field. Bryan Logan, Chief Executive Officer, Earth Data International. TESTIMONY OF BRYAN LOGAN,\1\ CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, EARTH DATA INTERNATIONAL Mr. Logan. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Horn, and Members of the Subcommittee, I would like to put my full statement in place on the record. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Logan appears in the Appendix on page 84. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Senator Brownback. Without objection. Mr. Logan. One thing that is said--and I have 5 minutes here--today we are going to try to put some high tech into my 5-minute speech here. So I will ask you to don some glasses in a moment or two and dim the lights. Senator Brownback. There will be no cameras in the audience when we put these glasses on. Mr. Logan. Right. [Laugher.] The other thing is that a photograph says a thousand words, and as I am restricted to 5 minutes, I am hoping this is going to help my testimony. As the past president of the Management Association of Private Photogrametric Surveyors, MAPPS, a national association of private mapping firms, I was also a delegate to the 1986 White House Conference on Small Business, where the problem of government competition was a major issue both in 1980 and 1986 and 1995. I, today, would just like to focus on the fact that what we are looking for in our particular field is free and fair competition, and we do not believe that that exists at this point in time. If you want to look at an area where free and fair competition does not work, we need to look at the mapping industry and the GIS profession. As early as 1933--yes, 1933--a report of a special House committee found the mapping business subject to unfair government competition by government. For years, government studies have found that an accomplished and qualified private sector in surveying and mapping exists, and recommended increased contracting. In fact, in 1973, OMB reports said private cartographic contract capability is not being used sufficiently. OMB's fiscal year 1990 budget said specific areas where the government could place greater reliance on the private sector providers include map-making activities. That statement was intended to target the surveying and mapping of OMB Circular A- 76 studies. Since the mapping initiative was included in fiscal year 1990 budget, not a single Federal agency has conducted an A-76 review for surveying and mapping activities. Recently, OMB has changed A-76 to actually permit agencies to do work for other agencies without conducting a cost comparison, and that is what has led to Senator Thomas' floor amendment to the Treasury Appropriations bill in 1996 and 1997. Why has contracting out of mapping not increased significantly? I believe it is because the principal tool for moving services from government performance to the private sector is OMB A-76, and the decision on whether or not A-76 studies are actually undertaken rests with the agencies. What we have today is a monopoly, and I would like to say that there were some people on the Hill a few weeks ago in the software industry who would think that 95 percent of the business undertaken in the mapping business, undertaken by the government would be a monopoly even in their terms. That is about the number right now. There is $1 billion a year spent by Federal agencies on surveying and mapping activities. There is about 6,000 employees involved in that, and the private sector gets about $58 million worth of business per year from that. About 5.8 percent of the work that the Federal Government requires for surveying and mapping is actually done by the Federal Government itself. What we would like to see is that the Federal Government rides the wave rather than makes the wave. There is no need any longer for the wave to be made by the Federal agencies. The private sector can certainly do that for them. I would rather not have to compete against the government. I would rather have a true, free system where we can, in fact, look at individual projects that the government is undertaking and put forward a proposal to undertake that work. That is happening, I must add, with a number of agencies, such as the Army Corps of Engineers, the Air Force, and the Navy. They have traditionally contracted out, and, in fact, are contracting out more. In recent years, the USGS and NIMA, the new National Image and Mapping Agency, have launched new programs for the private sector. As a result of that, we have moved quite a considerable amount of work to the private sector, and my firm alone has employed in the last few years over 20 Federal employees from NIMA, TVA, USGS, and the Corps of Engineers and the military. Presently, we have more than 40 positions in the firm that can be filled by Federal employees who wish to move to the private sector, and we will do so, should out-sourcing by NIMA and NOAA and other agencies come to fruition. If this bill is enacted and we, in fact, do get free and fair competition, I think we will triple that number again. I see my orange light has come on. So I would quickly like--if we could bring the lights down--and I have got Nick Palatiello over here who is on his out-to-work day from school, who is going to make this all happen for us. The first image here shows a comparison. The image on the left is a government satellite, an older technology, 30-meter resolution. In other words, any point on the ground 30 meters or greater can be seen. The image on the right is going to be a new private sector satellite that will be put into service this coming year where we can see 4-meter resolution. As you can see, the private sector here is certainly leading the technology with regard to the image quality. Next slide, please. This is a typical map from the U.S. Geological Survey. It is a somewhat static map, and on average, they tend to be out of date by sometimes up to as much as 35 to 40 years. The next image is a project that we are presently doing for the District of Columbia and NCPC, a Federal agency, and if we had time today, we could zoom in on the Capitol Building there and see the actual tourists on the front steps of the Capitol. This database is being built on which all the utilities, etc., for the District Government will be handled in due course. Next slide, please. This is a NOAA chart, and, again, you can see from this chart, it is fairly basic, but if we look at the next slide, we can see the detail of the same area, and this detail will allow us to hide buildings and obstacles that would be potential air obstacles for aircraft and/or sea obstacles for shipping and navigation. And the last slide, which we are going to move into, is when we need the glasses, and if you look at this image here, with your glasses on, please, you will actually see, I hope, that the image turns into a three-dimensional model. For the rest of the audience, you will not see that, but that three- dimensional model is produced by technology that we have in the private sector and have developed, admittedly with help of R&D from Federal agencies, but what I would like to see is that this technology that we have spent a considerable amount of time on being replicated with the Federal agencies, State, and/ or local government agencies. So, again, this technology is what we are bringing forward. It shows that we can compete, and to summarize what we really want today is to be in a position where we can compete for this type of work and move people from government into the private sector where they can have first-rate jobs with great benefits and a great picture. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Senator Brownback. Thank you, Mr. Logan. Next will be Larry Trammell, Corporate Vice President and General Manager, Science Applications International Corp. Mr. Trammell, welcome. LARRY TRAMMELL,\1\ CORPORATE VICE PRESIDENT AND GENERAL MANAGER, SCIENCE APPLICATIONS INTERNATIONAL CORP. Mr. Trammell. Thank you. I am pleased to be here today to speak on behalf of industry groups, and I thank you very much for your invitation, Mr. Chairman, and Subcommittee Members. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Trammell appears in the Appendix on page 88. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- By way of introduction, I am employed by Science Applications International Corp. to manage its services company. SAIC is primarily a scientific and information technology company who has provided services to the Federal Government for almost 30 years. We are members of many industry associations, including several of those represented today. From this perspective, I will be providing my views on the Federal Government marketplace. In order for Congress to require agencies to meet its balanced budget requirements, we believe there must be legislation that supports the concepts embraced in the bills before us today. We know that efficiency is required for survival in the competitive private sector. Likewise, government agencies owe it to the American taxpayer to be efficient. My discussion today is going to focus on six key principles pertinent to this legislation, and they are provided on the board to your right for reference. On the first point, let me say that industry supports the OMB guidance of what is and is not inherently governmental, and we acknowledge the need to retain core capabilities in the government. We in industry want smart, capable, and well- informed customers to ensure that we meet the right objectives to accomplish their mission. Our government partners must have the capability to conceive and oversee the work to accomplish its core mission. We also believe that there is no place for an agency to compete in the public market. As an industry, it is important for each agency to focus on its core mission and to procure from other sources those items which are non-governmental. We believe fundamentally that work which is not inherently governmental should be performed by industry. However, we concede to enter into a competition with the government activity for these non-core functions. On item two, industry's perspective on the current process for identification and selection of the right source is cumbersome and inefficient. It unfortunately focuses only on low cost. We understand that this legislation phases out these procedures in favor of a best-value selection of the right source to perform required services. In regard to item three, competition, even public-private competition, promotes general efficiencies and ultimately the most efficient organization. We know that quality is the key to effective and efficient performance, and higher quality may be worth a higher price. We need legislation to allow latitude to purchase at other than low price, and we are pleased to see the emergence of this concept in this legislation in order to assure that the American taxpayer receive the best value for the tax dollar. Item four, as mentioned, we advocate best-value awards and seek to ensure a level playing field for evaluation. The current approach does not require all costs of an activity to be reflected in the public estimate of a cost. We need a common approach to cost collection and reporting for both government and private sectors. Government has already embraced this concept, and industry supports that position. It will be a challenge for government to adapt to activity- based costing as it has been for our industry, but we are pleased to see the emergence of this concept in this and in previous legislation in order to assure a level evaluation. Item five, sometimes what we do not know can hurt us. This is the case with the current process in contracting out. There is no current requirement for an agency to identify all its opportunities to compete for efficiency. Industry supports this legislation which does require evaluation of all agency functions for competition. And, last, we understand that this will be a program which must have a time-phased implementation, and we believe the schedule set forth in the legislation is fair and reasonable to accomplish this important mission. Having made these key points, I would like to commend you and your Subcommittee for hard work on this important and long- needed legislation, and I offer our continued support. That concludes my remarks. I thank you again for this opportunity and stand ready to address any questions. Senator Brownback. Thank you very much, Mr. Trammel. We appreciate your being here, and I am certain we will have some questions. Douglas K. Stevens, Jr., Partner of Information Technology Services Group, under Grant Thornton, LLP, representing the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. Mr. Stevens, thank you for joining us. TESTIMONY OF DOUGLAS K. STEVENS, JR.,\1\ PARTNER OF INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY SERVICES GROUP, UNDER GRANT THORNTON, LLP, REPRESENTING THE U.S. CHAMBER OF COMMERCE Mr. Stevens. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have submitted written testimony, and would just like to make some brief comments, hopefully not too redundant with some that we have heard previously. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Stevens appears in the Appendix on page 91. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Senator Brownback. Your testimony will be a part of the record. Mr. Stevens. I would like to comment on three very important points: First, very briefly on the state of the language of the draft bills that we have reviewed; second, on some of the problems with the current version of OMB Circular A-76; and, finally, on the activity-based costing language that is included in the House version of the draft bill. The current bills include two very major, very substantial changes from previous bills. The first is the addition of language about management competition, including the incorporation of activity-based costing, and the second is the inclusion of out-sourcing reporting requirements under the Government Performance and Results Act. The addition of the managed competition language should remove, in our view, previous objectives by the various players in this process, including the GAO, the OMB, and the Federal employees and their unions who wanted an opportunity to compete for work currently performed by the public sector and designated as commercial, rather than automatically awarding the work to a private sector organization. The inclusion of agency reporting requirements under the Performance Act is a critical mechanism, in my view, for proper congressional oversight of the conversion process without creating an entirely new reporting burden on the agencies. In the area of the problems with the current A-76 circular, the first problem that the proposed legislation addresses is the fact that the A-76 competition process is converted from a voluntary activity to a mandatory one. Chairman Brownback has heard testimony before his Subcommittee on this bill that government managers who have voluntarily decided to perform A-76's have found that a career- ending move. Therefore, government managers tend to avoid conducting A-76 competition and use excuses like lack of staff, budget time, or resources. Since the legislation before us not only makes the competitions for the agencies mandatory with the force of law, but it also provides reporting under the Performance Act, we believe that under the legislation, agencies will no longer be able to make excuses to Congress, and, very importantly, government managers will have the cover of a statutory mandate to perform the A-76 competitions. Second, the current version of A-76 allows for, but does not require a standard cost-accounting methodology such as activity-based costing. Thus, historically, agencies have had the option to adjust numbers to arrive at a desired outcome by using a different accounting system than the private sector organization competing is forced to use. The legislation before us requires that the agency consider as many as possible of the same cost that a private sector bidder would consider in a competition, and, really, it goes a long ways toward leveling the playing field in an A-76 competition. The third problem with the existing legislation that we see is the inadequate inventory of commercial activities that is maintained by OMB, and the business community applauds the legislation's requirement that agencies prepare, maintain, and publish in the Federal Register a catalog of all the commercial work being done in-house. Finally, about activity-based costing and cost accounting, the House and Senate draft language on the issue of cost accounting is very different, and my comments pertain to the draft language from the House. We urge that the House language be incorporated in the Senate bill to make sure that the playing field is, indeed, level, and this opportunity to adjust cost figures is eliminated. The point of using activity-based costing is to ensure that any comparable analysis between a government bid and a private sector bid used a comparable and comprehensible cost-accounting methodology. While there are a number of cost-accounting methodologies that could be used, we believe that activity- based costing provides the easiest method for obtaining similar information from both parties and information that can be easily understood. A couple of, perhaps, technical points. We believe that the cost-accounting standards board ought to be included in the commenting process on the bill. The cost-accounting standards board is the entity that governs cost-accounting standards for private sector companies, and, therefore, ought to have a legitimate role because it makes the rules that oversee the government contractors that will be bidding. Finally, there is an issue about recognizing the cost of taxes in a private sector bid, and our approach is to simply recommend that both the government and private sector bids not include taxes as a cost item, so that the measurement is straightforward. Thank you. Mr. Horn [presiding]. Well, we thank you for that excellent statement. I particularly appreciate you tying it into the actual legislation and what should be incorporated and moved wherever. We now begin with the various employee groups. Robert Tobias is president of the National Treasury Employees Union. Mr. Tobias. TESTIMONY OF ROBERT M. TOBIAS,\1\ NATIONAL PRESIDENT, THE NATIONAL TREASURY EMPLOYEES UNION Mr. Tobias. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Tobias with attachments appears in the Appendix on page 97. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- NTEU is very concerned that the legislation we are here to discuss today represents a philosophical predisposition, rather than a data-driven decisionmaking process concerning who can deliver products to the taxpayers faster, better, and cheaper. There is no data. There is no evidence that the private sector is automatically better just because it is the private sector. Rather, there is a great deal of evidence that just the contrary is true. It is also important to keep in mind that contracting work to the private sector does not make it private sector work. It remains government work performed by the private sector under the supervision of the government for the benefit of the public. The issue is who will perform the work and at what cost, not whether the work will be performed. Therefore, the appropriate question is who can perform the work faster, better, and cheaper. It is not as though the Federal Government does not use contractors with the private sector, $108 billion is spent in salary and benefits for Federal employees, and the minimum amount spent on private sector contracting is $120 billion, and some estimate it is three times that amount. And we know that the current contracts have led to astronomical amounts of waste and fraud that have been well documented by both GAO and OMB. The GAO has brought to Congress' attention examples of millions of dollars of missing government property that has been turned over to contractors, and they admit their numbers are probably understated by millions of dollars. They have documented instances of unallowable and questionable overhead costs, and they have suggested that this matter is a significant and widespread problem, costing Federal agencies and the American taxpayers potentially hundreds of millions of dollars annually. I have with me today just a few of the relevant GAO and OMB documents on this topic, and I ask that they be made part of the record.\1\ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ The documents submitted by Mr. Tobias appear in the Appendix on pages 116-275. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. Horn. Without objection, so ordered. Mr. Tobias. They raise serious issues, and they cannot be ignored. Both GAO and OMB have repeatedly pointed out that the Federal Government is unable to adequately supervise all the contracting it undertakes now. They have provided detailed examples of contracts where the Federal Government could save roughly 50 percent by performing the work in-house. They highlight contract cost overruns, poor or nonexistent oversight, lax management of contracts, as well as outright fraud and abuse in the billions of dollars. Some of these reports are more than 5 years old. Some are relatively new. Yet, nothing has been done to address the problems they highlight. Contract management and oversight are not only within the jurisdiction of these Committees, they are part of the names of these Subcommittees. Yet, when we ask why the abuse and waste detailed in these studies is not addressed in this legislation and why procedures are not put in place to prevent such abuses in the future, we have been told simply that this is beyond the scope of this bill. We believe that contract reform must start with reform of the oversight of the existing contracts before there is any consideration of additional contracting out. This legislation would also do away with A-76 which currently governs contracting out. We fear that this will only lead to more contracting with less cost comparisons. Currently, 40 percent of contracts are let without competition and cost comparisons. We need more competition, not less. Congress should mandate the use of A-76 before any contract is considered, not eliminate A-76. This legislation would effectively remove congressional oversight, allow work performed by the U.S. Government to be done in foreign countries, and contains no safety net for current Federal workers who might lose their job. Finally, the legislation does not allow the Federal Government to compete for the work once it is contracted out. Administrations come and go. Congresses, too, come and go. I suggest that we do not want the spirit of public service to come and go. There are many services the public sector provides that it should provide. We should not, on a political whim, decide that our sons and daughters will be forced to depend on a succession of private sector contractors to provide government services, maybe reasonably, maybe not, maybe more efficiently, maybe not. This legis- lation would truly shut down the Federal Government, not all at once as legislation eliminating Federal agencies would do, but, over the long term, the effect would be the same. The system in place now may not be perfect, but it is accountable, and contracting out Federal services must continue to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. To do otherwise ignores the problems pointed out time and again by GAO, OMB, and the many private organizations who have completed their own studies. I encourage the Members of the two Subcommittees present today, as well as this Congress, to reject the legislation that is before you. Thank you very much. Mr. Horn. Thank you very much. Our next witness is Bobby Harnage, the president of the American Federation of Government Employees. Your statement will be automatically included in the record. TESTIMONY OF BOBBY L. HARNAGE,\1\ PRESIDENT, AMERICAN FEDERATION OF GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES Mr. Harnage. Thank you, sir. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Harnage appears in the Appendix on page 276. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chairman Brownback, Chairman Horn, and Members of the Senate and House Government Management Subcommittees, I want to thank you for allowing me this opportunity to give AFGE's views on the latest version of the Freedom of Government Competition Act. Chairman Brownback, my predecessor, the late John Sturdivant, testified before your Subcommittee last year on this legislation, and he later told me, after he appeared at your Subcommittee, that you did conduct a very fair hearing on the legislation, even though you happened to be one of the co- sponsors, and I thank you for that, as well as the insights that the Majority staff on the full Committee have shared with AFGE prior to this hearing. Senator Brownback. I remember him as just an outstanding, wonderful member, a person with this great soul, too. He was a wonderful man. Mr. Harnage. Yes. We miss him. And, Chairman Horn, let me thank you for your willingness to work with AFGE on your recent travel card legislation, as well as the interest you have shown in making child care more affordable for lower-income Federal employees. When AFGE last testified on the legislation that we are concerned with today, we had several constructive suggestions: Improving OMB Circular A-76 and requiring cost comparisons for all service contracting; lifting arbitrary personnel ceilings which cause wasteful contracting out; developing a better understanding of the contractor work force; improving contract administration; ending contractor's incentive to avoid unions and shortchange workers on their pay and benefits; and encouraging labor-management partnerships to make the government even more effective. I regret to report today that not even a single suggestion AFGE has made managed to sneak into the draft legislation we are considering today. Consequently, I am baffled that this legislation is actually being characterized as a compromise. I am even more baffled to hear contractors continue to complain about not getting enough taxpayer dollars. The government already contracts out for services in excess of $110 billion annually, an arbitrarily low number which does not come close to indicating the private sector's deep involvement with the Federal Government. With an administration that has consistently racked up the highest service contracting-out bills in the Nation's history and a series of Congresses that cheer on privatization more so than anyone which preceded them, contractors should be celebrating their good fortune in grand style. Attributing the failure of contractors to dig even deeper into Treasury to a conspiracy not to use A-76 often enough to suit the private sector, the legislation under consideration today includes provisions that would put most of the government up for sale over 5 years. Contractors are obviously frustrated at the increasing success of Federal employees in competition under OMB Circular A-76. Formerly, Federal employees lost 7 out of 10 competitions. Now we are winning 50 percent of those competitions. This is not the result of unfair competition for the contractors. It is the result of reinvention-of-government initiatives and MEOs. Contractors want to junk OMB Circular A- 76 in favor of a more pro-contractor framework. This is not about saving taxpayers' dollars. It is about privatization at any cost. It is said that this legislation simply establishes a process by which the Executive Branch can create a fair system for public-private competition. Since the framework which would succeed A-76 itself is not yet formed, the legislation sponsors are imploring a don't-worry-be-happy strategy. To Federal employees, your concerns will be dealt with later. Well, I was taught at a very early age not to buy a pig in a poke. I am not about to change my way this late in life. Federal employees are justifiably apprehensive at the prospects of a competitive framework that politicians and contractors might devise in place of A-76. At a time when some politicians' minds are impaired by notions that the public sector can do nothing right, now is not the time to rewrite the rules for Federal service contracting, public-private competitions, if we truly want to save money for the taxpayers and ensure that inherently governmental services continue to be performed by Federal employees. And the often one-sided approach of this legislation providing detailed instructions about how to calculate in-house overheat, but conspicuously solid on contracted in and the most efficient organization process, it only increases our suspicions. Let us talk about the most important reason why this legislation is not designed to ensure fair competition, its complete and total failure to even address in-house personnel ceilings that force agencies to contract out work, even at higher costs because of shortage of Federal employees, a practice which has been extensively documented by GAO, OMB, and other agencies. Finally, I note that this legislation does absolutely nothing about the dismal state of Federal contract administration. The details are provided in my testimony, but, clearly, there is no doubt that we are losing billions of dollars every year because of waste, fraud, and abuse in Federal contracting. Lawmakers considering this legisla- tion need to ask themselves a very simple question. If it is manifestly clear that the taxpayers are being billed for billions of dollars in contractor waste, fraud, and abuse every year as a result of the $110 billion in service contracting currently undertaken, just what sort of extraordinary budget- busting losses will we see when over a 5-year period the total Federal Government is put up for bid? Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today, and I look forward to answering your questions. Mr. Horn. Well, we thank you for that very full statement, and we appreciate the timeliness with which you could deliver it. I have never seen a panel so good as all of you that have come within the 5-minute side, and it is sort of ironic. We are in Senate territory, and on the House territory, I can never get you to stop, but we thank you all for what you have done on this. We now have our last panelist, and then we will have questions. Michael Styles is the national president of the Federal Managers Association. Mr. Styles, it is a pleasure to have you here. TESTIMONY OF MICHAEL B. STYLES,\1\ NATIONAL PRESIDENT, FEDERAL MANAGERS ASSOCIATION Mr. Styles. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Styles appears in the Appendix on page 337. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- In an effort to stay within the 5 minutes, I would like to just comment briefly on the statement and some of the comments that were made here today by other presenters. One thing I would like to say, I am sorry that Congresswoman Maloney left because I was born and raised in the Bronx, and current privatization and contracting-out policies have offended my sensibilities as well. And I also think that Congressman Kucinich said it best when he said ``of the people, by the people, and for the people.'' That is what government is all about, and I think what we have now is a misconception. What we are talking about with the right-sizing of government, we say that we are shrinking the size of government. The American taxpayer believes that as we shrink the Federal work force, we are actually shrinking the size of government, and my premise is this, that moving work from one sector to another does not, in fact, shrink the size of government. It just moves the work from one sector to the other. I believe that there are more than 1.8 million people working for the Federal Government. I believe there are approximately 10 million people. I do not know for sure, but I think it is something that we should look to because everyone who has contracted or had contracted work with the Federal Government works for the Federal Government. A question was asked earlier about reinventing government. I remember that we went through this in several phases. The first phase was to say let us cut 272,900 Federal employees. That was an arbitrary number that was brought about by the administration to go out and cut Federal employees. The second phase said to go up into the 400,000 range, and along with the second phase, people said, ``And, by the way, let us take a look at the agencies that these people work for and consider their mission.'' I think we had it kind of backwards, and I think what we are responsible for is providing the best service, the best quality service for the lowest price to the American taxpayer. If you take a look at some of the organizations that we have downsized to date, recently at a National Partnership Council meeting at our national convention, we had a presentation that was made by NAVAIR. In that presentation, we talked about cutting the infrastructure by 56 percent, cutting the work force by 49 percent, and most people would say to you that we were shrinking the size of government, becoming more efficient, quite the contrary in the sense that we are now contracting out more of the services that were performed at those installations, and, more importantly than that, we have undermined our ability to provide immediate response capability and surge capacity in those arenas. I think that as we look at the overall issue of contracting out, we have to look at some of the challenges that face us. There are two primary concerns that FMA has. One is the fact that contractor strikes can be imminent. We have in our testimony several examples of that, but I would like to share with you one on a personal note. I went to an FMA-FAA conference-convention, and while we were there, we were given a presentation by Airways Corporation of New Zealand, and they talked about the privatization of the New Zealand FAA. It was quite an impressive presentation. When I asked of the presenter whether the now-privatized New Zealand FAA controllers could go on strike, he said sure. I said, ``Well, what happens if they do?'' He said, ``They are above that.'' Well, that was in October of that year, and I got a Christmas card which I brought with me, which I thought is kind of neat because it was approximately 2 months later. It says, ``Mike, you may have heard that the New Zealand controllers went on strike over the conditions for their contract. It is a long story with many interesting features and some personal agendas. I will be writing to Bill,'' and blah, blah, blah, ``to let you know how it comes out.'' I think it is important for us to take a good look, a good hard look at what it means to have a very competent skilled work force working for us that is a strike-free work force. Another point that we have issue with is the fact that we do not very effectively track the cost of contracting. In our recommendations, and I will get to them in a little bit, we do recommend that we track the cost of contracting, and I believe Congressman Cummings has put forth a bill before the House to do exactly that. Along with this, I believe that if you take a look at Seal Beach Weapons Station--I was going to call them ``Chapter 55.'' I apologize. The situation that you mentioned earlier when you talked about the weapons station at Seal Beach is a very important one. We talk about the skilled labor that we have within the Federal work force, and if you take a look at the awards that have been won by the managers and supervisors at that installation and the employees, you are talking about the Government Hammer Award in 1995 and 1996, the Bronze Eureka Award, California's equivalent to the Malcolm Baldridge Award in 1995, and the Silver Eure- ka Award in 1996 and 1997, and they have just recently learned that they will be a part of this process. Now, I realize that you have excluded the depots from this process, and we appreciate that very much, but we are worried about those other military entities as well who fall within that definition that I provided before about immediate response capability and surge capacity. I think these are issues that we must look to, and I hope that we do in the future. Thank you very much. Mr. Horn. Well, we thank you. I am now going to yield my time, 5 minutes, to the Vice Chairman of the House Subcommittee on Government Management, Information, and Technology, Mr. Sessions of Texas. Mr. Sessions. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Dr. Kelman, I would like to address some of my questions to you, if I could, first. I heard your testimony and have read part of what you provided here. I think you were talking about a balance in order to achieve this legislation. I have heard from people here who are also equally on both sides of this issue. Can you play out for me to the benefit of the taxpayer--you have served on both sides, academic and within the administration--what you believe those advantages and/or disadvantages, once again, both sides could be? Mr. Kelman. Yes. I think that we do need to keep in mind the big picture, which is that the overwhelming amount of evidence, both at the Federal level, the State and local level, and even, again, the private-to-private level, to the extent we have evidence. Is that when you subject activities such as these to competition, costs tend to go down, typically quite dramatically, 20-percent declines are not at all uncommon, and quality tends to get better? I mean, the idea of competition, which is the base on which our marketplace system functions, also has its place in the public sector in non-core functions. I agree with Congressman Kucinich, there are core government functions, core missions, decisions that we make as a people democratically that should be implemented by Federal employees, but that does not apply to grounds operations, payroll checks, a lot of the medical services that are delivered in-house by the Defense Department, and lots of the commercial activities that are currently delivered in-house without competition do not fall within that category. So I think the benefits of competition are pretty straightforward. I guess I was surprised to hear from some of my colleagues, the union witnesses, these statements about the Federal Government is unable to oversee these contracts. I am surprised that they have such a disparaging view of Federal workers. I believe that our Federal work force is perfectly capable of overseeing these contracts. They are overseeing the contracts. I am also surprised to hear cited a number of IG and GAO investigations. These are exactly the kinds of studies that when they are done about Federal programs, friends of appropriate government, friends of government say, correctly, these are extreme examples, these are unusual examples, do not assume they are typical, the sort of thing that is on ``Fleecing of America'' that many of us, I assume, the union witnesses and I, often blanche at seeing. I am somewhat surprised and disappointed to hear some of the union witnesses cite similar kinds of ``horror stories'' with reference to contract oversight. Almost all of those examples of problems in contract oversight that were cited by some of the earlier witnesses involve some of the more esoteric kinds of contracts, often sometimes sole source for various reasons. These are not the mainstream of commercial activities, which it is very, very feasible using performance-based contracts, gain-sharing, fixed-price contracting. There are well-known techniques that the administration has been promoting as part of procurement reform that allow us perfectly well to oversee these contracts. Mr. Sessions. Thank you. Mr. Stevens, there were some discussions, and I believe it was Mr. Logan who talked about the mapping. Was it you, Mr. Logan? Mr. Logan. That is correct. Mr. Sessions. Can you please tell me some of those functions that might mean to you--what were they? Core and out- sourcing? Not referring to Mr. Logan, but Dr. Kelman. Was it the core? Mr. Kelman. Yes, core and non-core. Mr. Sessions. OK. Can you tell me in your opinion what might be core and not core, just in a brief minute or so, please? Then, Mr. Styles, I would like to ask that you and Mr. Harnage answer that also, please. Mr. Stevens. I really would rather not comment on that. I am here largely as a technician and simply can tell you that once those things are defined, if the playing field is level and the proper methodologies are used, the competition will be fair. Mr. Sessions. Because, evidently, the agencies will be determining these things. Mr. Harnage, do you have any comment on that, or concerns? Mr. Harnage. What was your question again? Mr. Sessions. Well, essentially, in this legislation, there will be a determination made of what is core and then, in essence, what is for competition. I have heard you talk about the concerns that you have. Do you have any concerns about that utilization or how that would be used that might be to a disadvantage for a government employee? Mr. Harnage. Well, I think our first concern was going to be the amount of litigation that this bill is obviously going to create whenever that can be challenged. What is decided to now be inherently government is now subject to the courts of where it is not before, and, oddly enough, the only thing that can be challenged is when it is not decided to be contracted out. It cannot be challenged if it is decided to be contracted out. I think that is a very unfair advantage to the contractor or disadvantage to the Federal employees, but we are not about more litigation. We do not think this belongs in the courts. We think this belongs in the upper management decisions. We think this belongs in Congress and in making their decision and passing the laws that look into these matters. I just do not agree that litigation is the process. Mr. Sessions. Mr. Styles. Mr. Styles. Yes, sir. Mr. Sessions. Mr. Chairman, if I might---- Mr. Horn. Yes. As long as you ask the question in the time period in which you did, we let anybody that wants to answer it, and we will do the same with the gentleman from Ohio. Mr. Styles. I thank you very much. U.S. law, Title X, Subtitle A, Part 4, Chapter 146, specifically designates, The necessity of the Department of Defense to keep core logistics functions within the U.S. Government. It is essential for the national defense that the Department of Defense maintain a core logistics capability that is government-owned and government-operated (including government personnel and government-owned and government-operated equipment and facilities) to ensure a ready and controlled source of technical competence and resources necessary to ensure effective and timely response to a mobilization, national defense contingency situations, and other emergency requirements. When I talk about immediate response capability and surge capacity, I am talking about the men, the women, the machines, and the drydocks. All of those things are essential to the readiness of this Nation. So, when we talk about core, we are talking about all of those entities. When you downsize and not right-size, when you contract out--and I will use an example here. I will use the shipyards, which is a good example. When we lost Brooklyn Navy Shipyard, let us say, all of those resources were given to the private sector. What happened was the drydocks and other things went into decay. We lost a resource. Now, understandably, we are in a new era. What we have to do, though, I believe, is as we are downsizing or right-sizing, as I would like to see it, when you talk about competition, I believe the public sector should be able to compete with work in order to maintain the skill levels at their depots and other organizations so that they do not lose that force and readiness at time of need. Mr. Tobias. Mr. Sessions, I think that the issue that we are talking about here is who defines ``core government function,'' and what this legislation would do would be to allow the courts to define ``core government function'' in the context of litigation, as opposed to the Federal Government and the Executive Branch defining ``core government function.'' I do not think that the courts ought to be defining what is a ``core government function,'' and this legislation would allow that to occur. Second, in response to Mr. Kelman, who was surprised about these horror stories---- Mr. Sessions. Mr. Tobias, I asked that question, and I would not like to engage in anything that would be considered pitting one Member of this panel against another. And I do appreciate your comments. I would be pleased to hear that when we get finished, that you may give that to me, but I would---- Mr. Tobias. Thank you. Mr. Sessions. Thank you. Mr. Horn. Well, for the next round. I now yield 5 minutes to the gentleman from Ohio, Mr. Kucinich. Mr. Kucinich. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. In reviewing this testimony, I am struck by what I would call the epistemology of privatization, and, certainly, Dr. Kelman, as a Har- vard professor, understands the connotative as well as the denotative meanings of words and phrases. I was struck by your assertion that this is a non- ideological profession, and, yet, when I see language which speaks of the marketplace, leveling the playing field, downsize, that certainly carries with it a particular and peculiar kind of logic. How do you stand on your assertion that this is not ideological, when, in fact, it seems to be replete with references to a more corporate approach toward interaction? Mr. Kelman. I agree with your concern about what words connote as well as what they denote. With Professor Horn in the audience, you should maybe continue---- Mr. Kucinich. I have done a little teaching myself. Mr. Kelman. I understand. So we have three teachers here. Here is what I would say. What I would say is--I am here speaking for myself--I care very deeply about the ability of government to work effectively because I believe that government performs some very crucial roles in our society. If you look at the polls, the biggest threat to the standing of government in the eyes of the American people--if you ask the American people--and you see all these polls about the high level of public dissatisfaction with government. If you look at the most recent Pew Foundation poll that was on the Federal page of the Washingotn Post a few weeks ago, what you will find is most Americans agree with the goals, more or less, that government is undertaking, but believe that government wastes a lot of money and is not managed effectively. I believe that we need to concentrate the effort of our Federal executives and leaders on taking overall responsibility for the core policy-making and policy implementation tasks of government. I believe that through increased use of out-sourcing, just as is done commercial-to-commercial in the commercial world, we can get government to be more effective, more efficient, and save and turn around the reputation of government in the minds of the American people. So I believe, actually--I say this not to be ideological because people who do not share my ideology might favor this for other reasons--but, speaking for myself, as a friend of government, as a former government employee, and as somebody who is teaching kids who are going to work in public service, who have chosen not to go to a business school, they have chosen to study public policy and to work in public service, that is what I have sort of devoted my life to. I care about these things. I believe that the appropriately increased use of out- sourcing even from an ideological perspective--this is not an ideological issue, but from my ideology, I would say that it is an important way to salvage the standing and status of government in the minds of taxpayers. Mr. Kucinich. I would like to ask you, Doctor. You spoke earlier about holding government employees harmless in a period off privatization. Could I ask you, does that go to supporting government employees, if they are in a transition, to a privatized function, having the same level of benefits, the same level of wages, the same pension rights? Do you support that? Mr. Kelman. That is a fair question to ask me. Mr. Kucinich. Do you support it? Mr. Kelman. Hold on. I think that has to be looked at on a case-by-case basis. Keep in mind that when---- Mr. Kucinich. OK. I just want to point this out. Reclaiming my time, with all due respect, Doctor. Mr. Kelman. OK. Mr. Kucinich. On the one hand, one of the witnesses--I think it was Mr. Logan--said go to the private sector, get a great job. Well, terrific, let us do it, but if we are going to make that transition to the private sector, as Mr. Logan advocates--thank you--then your profession is that we want to hold--your words--hold harmless the government employees. Then why can't they have the same wages and same benefit levels and same pension levels? And I will tell you why they do not, because that takes the profit out of the deal. If you do that, there is no profit. So the profit here in privatization comes from the wages, the benefits, and the pensions of public employees, and a consequent service reduction. I mean, I have seen that happen in local government. So I just wanted to point out why it is very vexing for such an esteemed professor and doctor as you are, and you are, to be able to answer without qualification the question about what would happen with respect to government employees. It is a very difficult issue, Doctor. Mr. Kelman. No, I agree it is a difficult issue, and I think there are all sorts of pluses and minuses that might come to employees when they move into the private sector. They get part of a larger firm with more promotion opportunities and so forth. Mr. Kucinich. You are right. Doctor, the red light is on. Mr. Kelman. Fine. Mr. Kucinich. But may I say that, to use another private sector euphemism, it is called the bottom line. Mr. Logan. I would like to take exception with that. It was I who said there were opportunities in the private sector. I have employed people recently at higher wages and better medical benefits joining our firm from Federal agencies. And one thing that I would like to say is if we knew a better way to understand the Federal employees, knew a better way to understand what their various pension rights and whatnot are--and I should be promoting a program called Soft Landing that--that we would be able to get more people to leave the government and join the private sector, but there is confusion in that area right now, and I think there should be some help to the employees, the government employees, to help them come across to the private sector. But I must re-assert that those people are leaving the government and coming into my profession at higher salaries, with better benefits than they had when they left the government, or why else would they have voluntarily left the government? Mr. Kucinich. That is a fine example you are setting for the rest of the private sector. Mr. Logan. And I think that is not alone. I can tell you right now that there are 118 firms in my association, and there are Federal employees who could get jobs with all of them right now, in almost 50 States of this Union, if they wanted to go there and have a better career path than they had with government, and they will actually tell you that, if you sometime want to take time and come out and talk to some of my ex-Federal employees. Mr. Kucinich. I am impressed with your presentation, and I look forward to you setting the standards for the rest of the private sector. Thank you. Mr. Horn. I believe Mr. Trammel wanted to answer your question, also, and that is fair game. Mr. Trammell. I would just like to make a comment in regard to what Mr. Logan was just talking about. We, too, have one of the Soft Landing contracts from the government, which brings some of the Federal employees into the private sector, and I have had the exact same experience at our company (SAIC) as he just described in regard to being able to provide equal or greater-than benefits in every area, including vacations and holidays and health and welfare benefits, etc. Also, I would like to interject that our industry is governed by certain laws, including the Service Contract Act, which mandates certain wages to be paid to hourly employees, and contractors take that law very seriously. In fact, we can be debarred from doing any government business for not being in compliance with that law. I assure you that government service contractors take that law very, very seriously. In our associations, for instance, the Contract Services Association has developed a specific training course in consonance with the Department of Labor. Actually, Department of Labor officials teach that course twice a year here in the D.C. area. Every time we teach that course, we have an overflow of contractors and government employees which attend those sessions. Mr. Tobias. Mr. Kucinich. Mr. Horn. Excuse me. Mr. Tobias, and then Mr. Styles. Mr. Tobias. GAO's follow-up with employees who have been involuntarily separated or went to work with contractors reveal that over half received unemployment compensation or public assistance. Mr. Kucinich. Over half or under half? Mr. Tobias. Over half. Moreover, 53 percent who went to work for contractors said they received lower wages with most reporting that contractor benefits were not as good. Mr. Kucinich. What are you saying? Lower wages? Mr. Tobias. Moreover, 53 percent who went to work for contractors said they received lower wages with most reporting that contractor benefits were not as good. That is a GAO follow-up with work that is contracted out. Mr. Kucinich. I think the panel has established there are some people who want to pay people more, but we have to also establish for the record that there are some people who want to pay less. Mr. Logan. I would like to just say that I also disagree with your comment that the profit comes from paying people less. I believe the profit comes from better utilization of hardware or software, in our case, and better utilization of the work force. When we started to do some work for some Federal agencies, those specs we were given were maybe 2-foot high. We have reduced that now to two pages of everybody's effort, including the team from the government side, and we are able to produce data faster, better than ever before. Mr. Kucinich. Sir, if I may, you have acquitted yourself quite well as to what you do. Mr. Logan. I am not asking of myself personally. Mr. Kucinich. But when you show us these pictures--what altitude are they taken from? Mr. Logan. Well, which ones are you referring to? Mr. Kucinich. The one where you--the picture of the White House. Mr. Logan. That one was taken at 8,000 feet. Mr. Kucinich. OK. Well, when you show us those pictures that are taken at 8,000 feet and you give us testimony that you are providing a soft landing for your employees, I just wonder if there are some people who are being dropped from 8,000 feet or we have people who are making--53 percent making less money. They are not landing soft. They are landing with a thud. So we have to distinguish between people like you who are testifying as to your sincerity to make sure that your employees are going to be given top-notch treatment, and, that is the right thing to do, and I congratulate you for that. And, on the other hand, Mr. Tobias produces a GAO report which says not working for everyone. So just comparing records---- Mr. Horn. Mr. Styles. Mr. Styles. There are two things that I would like to reflect on here. One, we keep coming back to this thought or notion that the Federal managers themselves are not doing a fine job in effecting the best quality service for the American people. Our work force, if anybody wants to take a look at it, is the finest work force assembled in the history of the world, and all we have done is berate and belittle that work force. Quite frankly, in public and in this House, I think we should show great respect for the things that are done on a daily basis by the American people working for the public sector. A little earlier, also, a Senator made a comment that we had to--the taxpayer. Well, guess what? All of us who work for the Federal Government are taxpayers as well. And I would also say that on those instances where we do pay more or pay a decent wage to our folks who are being privatized or contracted out, if you take a look at Louisville, Naval Weapons Station, or you take a look at Newark Air Force Base, then you look at the privatization aspect of it, and now it costs $40-something-million a year more to operate those facilities. So who is getting the biggest bang for the buck? Are the American people getting the biggest bang? Not hardly. Mr. Horn. OK. I thank you. Mr. Kucinich. Mr. Chairman, I must---- Mr. Horn. Your time has long since expired. Mr. Kucinich. It has, and I understand that. I want to thank the Chair for his generosity and for helping to create the circumstances for this hearing. I have to go to another meeting right now, but I want to thank you for what you have done to create this moment, and also thank all the Federal employees who are out there for the work that they do. Thank you. Mr. Horn. I thank the gentleman and wish him well. I now yield to the Vice Chairman, the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Sessions. Mr. Sessions. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. The part of the discussion that has invoked my brain into asking questions that are probably off the legislation--and I do not know whether there is anybody that would object to the germaneness of this discussion, but the question begs to me, is there something that the Federal Government should do to help this Soft Landing? You are looking at a person who spent 16 years working for a private firm, who left. I was not able to take my benefits with me, chose not to accept the government-- and I do not know which side this is trying to help, but did not accept the health care that the government offers from the House of Representatives because it was worse than what I had in the free market, and have chosen to continue buying that, but are there things that we can do, Mr. Tobias, Mr. Harnage, and Mr. Styles, to make this Soft Landing easier within how the government treats a departing employee that we should look at? Mr. Tobias. Mr. Tobias. I think the answer to that is yes, Mr. Sessions. I think that, certainly, no employee who loses a job with the Federal Government is---- Mr. Sessions. Through no fault of his own, especially, or her own. Mr. Tobias. Through no fault of his own, loses his or her job, is not entitled to pay at a level that is equivalent to the pay received in the Federal Government, is not entitled to benefits equivalent to the benefits of a Federal employee, and, in fact, is not entitled to a job at all. Some employees may be offered a job, but others not, at the discretion of the private sector employer. So there is no real safety net for folks who do lose their jobs as a result of contracting out. Mr. Sessions. I guess my question is, is there something inherently involved with employees who default the Federal Government, that we could change those circumstances that make it better and easier for them, unrelated to where they are going, but from what they are departing, from what they had? So I guess I am really talking about benefit plans, things that they had earned while in the government that they could begin taking advantage of earlier. Mr. Harnage. Mr. Harnage. Well, there probably are some, but I think if we get into that area, you are going to have two arguments, and we have argued about this fairness for years. And I do not know that we will ever agree on it, but if you are talking about being able to carry some benefits into the private sector, you are doing one of two things. Either the contractor is going to be arguing that it is no longer fair because they are incurring that additional cost that they otherwise would not, or the government is going to have to be subsidized. In that case, the taxpayer is paying for it, anyway, so why don't we go to the private sector to start with. Congress has been very good in the past in those areas of downsizing, reinventing government, developing Soft Landings, in the BRAC shutdowns, and retaining Federal employees. It has done well in that area, but it has done absolutely nothing when it comes to contracting out. I think we need to look at those experiences in reinventing government and downsizing to draw information from what can the government do. Mr. Sessions. Good. Mr. Styles. Mr. Styles. I think that especially in the Department of Defense, they have done well as far as placing people, training people, ensuring that there is a smooth transition for them. I think other agencies have to learn a lot from that. I think that cross-agency placement is essential if we are going to be successful, but I also think that what Mr. Harnage just said is something to look at. Contracting out should not be mandated. Contracting out should be a management tool to ensure the provision of the finest services to the American people. When we talk about what should be and what should not be contracted out, I think that should be a management decision within an organization. When I told you earlier that the NAVAIR organizations were cut 56 percent in infrastructure and 49 percent in personnel, they are still being mandated to contract out. Now, there is something wrong with that because, as I said before, you are now drifting past that point of no return. When the skills within the work force are gone, what you talked about, core is no longer with us, and that goes across the board throughout all of the agencies, if you will. Once you get past that, you cannot compete. Mr. Sessions. Mr. Chairman, I would like to state that for the people who are gathered before us, not only in panel, but also these people who are in this room, that I do believe that this hearing today has been very good. I believe that there are Members of this Committee and Subcommittee who will take very seriously the remarks that have been made today. I think the things that you have seen, the vigorous discussion that we have had, obviously, does ensue privately with us behind closed doors, and that I have great respect for each and every part of the testimony that has been made today. With that, I will tell you that I am through with my questions. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Horn. Well, we thank you very much. We appreciate the testimony all of you had. Let me ask just one last question. Is there anything that you would like to get on the record in response to what any of the other witnesses said, just to clarify the situation? I believe in giving witnesses who spend their time coming here from a long ways--I believe in giving you everything you can to get in the record. So, Mr. Tobias, anything getting you in the craw that you heard and did not like that we have not covered? Mr. Sessions. And, Mr. Chairman, let me state, and I said it a minute ago, I had written Mr. Tobias a note here, presumably to allow him now this opportunity on the record. So thank you. Mr. Tobias. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I do have a little bone to pick with Professor Kelman. Mr. Horn. That will teach you to leave the government, Steve. [Laughter.] Mr. Tobias. I am surprised at Professor Kelman's testimony that this represents a middle ground. There is no question that the issue of competition is an important one. The issue that competition lowers costs is an important idea and a well- recognized idea and an idea that I accept, but what I do not accept is the fact that under this legislation that the private sector defines core government functions; and the court defines core government functions. I do not accept the idea that the Federal Government now knows how to manage and does effectively manage the work that is contracted out. You can cast that as if I am disparaging Federal employees, but, rather, I am disparaging the system that is in place today to manage the work of the--some of the work of the private sector that GAO has reported. Finally, I do not think that I am referring to horror stories, but, rather, when GAO is asked to look at transactions--and they are not exceptions--what is found is that the private sector costs more, and part of that is because there have not been competitions, and the competitions that have been run have not been run well. So I think all of those are issues that have to be addressed, and many of them are not addressed in this legislation. Finally, I think that the idea that somehow a core government function can be, once and for all, defined over time is wrong. The government performs the work it is performing because people at one time decided that it ought to perform that work, and the idea that somehow all of those decisions were wrong and that over the next 5 years we are going to bid all of that work just because we ought to, I think, is a wrong- headed approach, both to government and managing the government. Mr. Horn. Mr. Logan. Mr. Logan. I just wanted to close by saying that A-76, and that has been core to this legislation, does not give or allow decisions either on the core aspect of government because it is in the hands of the agencies, and the agencies make the decision as to whether A-76. In our case, they are just not doing that. It strikes me as strange that some agencies do contract out exactly the same services that other agencies say cannot be contracted out. They are saying this because they say only the government can do it. Yet, we see from agency to agency the same services in our particular field, one saying one thing, one saying the other. I would also like to just comment on the $600 hammer that has come up again today. I believe a lot of that has happened because of mil-specs by the government requesting very, very unique services, and when you request very unique services and, as I have said, with 2-foot-thick specifications, you will end up with $600 hammers, but when you get it down to buying cots-- and I have to thank Steve Kelman for promoting this very successfully--we have a situation with one agency right now who, when we started to do work, they said that our costs compared to their costs were approximately one-third more because we were in a learning curve, too. Within a year, they have pointed out that we are producing work for less than they can do in-house, but I come back to the A-76 program. It does not work because there is no incentive to make it work. Thank you very much. Mr. Horn. Thank you. Mr. Trammell. Mr. Trammell. Thank you. I will make a few quick comments on key points from an industry perspective in relation to this legislation. Industry is most interested in having an opportunity to compete for the most efficient organization. We do, indeed, believe that this competition does increase efficiencies. However, we also should be provided a level playing field in evaluation for these opportunities. The last comment that I would like to make is from both the perspective of my company--and industry. As we team with a number of private sector companies as well as with the government--my company and our industry endeavors to engage in a partnership with the government when we perform activities under contract to the government. We take that relationship very seriously. We promote it. We believe that our government counterparts embrace this concept. That is what I want to leave you with; that industry promotes that partnership. Mr. Horn. Thank you. I am going to skip Mr. Kelman and bring him in last in case the other three are going to attack him. I wanted to get you all in one place. Mr. Stevens. Mr. Stevens. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Again, from an industry perspective, I want to underline that we believe that the draft legislation is a substantial improvement over the existing A-76 process. It corrects a lot of flaws, provides language that from a common-sense perspective ought to be acceptable to most, if not all, of the parties involved, and a warning that as in many things, the devil is in the detail, and one needs to pay good attention to how costs are calculated and measured and how they figure into the competitive process. Mr. Horn. Mr. Harnage. Mr. Harnage. Yes. Rather than trying to add more testimony, I think the opportunity was to address anything that may have been said by other witnesses that may have taken exception to, and what I would like to clarify, a previous witness talked about the statements made by the late John Sturdivant concerning AFGE's position on competition. I want that understood. When AFGE developed its policy on competition, I was chairman of AFGE's Privatization Committee of the Executive Board, which developed that policy. So I am very, very familiar with that policy. We were talking about in the context of reinventing government where we were playing a role, a partnership role, in trying to make the government the most efficient, the most effective government. We were also participating in a downsizing of the government as a result of the end of the cold war, and, again, we were talking about the soft landings and taking care of our people the best we could, recognizing that there had to be some downsizing of government, and also recognizing in today's world, there had to be better efficiencies developed. At the same time, we were participating in the revision of OMB Circular A-76. We did not get all that we wanted, any more than the contractors got all that they wanted, but at least we were al- lowed to participate, and we wanted to send the message clear to both Congress and to the administration that we were not fighting competition; that we wanted it fair, and we wanted it reasonable, and we wanted what was best for the taxpayers. And that was our interest. I now say that because we may appear to be changing our position on competition, it is like comparing me if I was to go out here in the Reflection Pool of the Lincoln monument in a rowboat and get out and say, ``Everybody ought to go rowing,'' and then somebody wants to know why I do not take a kayak down the rapids. That is about the same comparison as me saying I support competition with this bill as opposed to saying we support the competition under the A-76 process, which is as fair as we have been able to get it today. And we recognize--we recognize that competition does bring about efficiencies, and we would not be acting in the best interest of the taxpayers if we totally opposed competition. I do have a problem. I do not agree that competition is right in all forms. I am a veteran, and I am very patriotic. I love this country, and I am very concerned about the most powerful government in the world, the leader of the free world, being a government for profit. I have a real concern with that, and at the same time, I am very concerned about the support of our war fighters, the support of our war fighters, our national security being subject to the low bidder. I have a problem with that, the same as Senator John Glenn had when they asked him how did he feel when they lit the fuse on that first rocket that he took, and he said he was thinking about that it was built by the low bidder. Well, I have that same concern when it comes to national security. So, please, nobody misunderstand us. We are not in favor to competition in every case, and never will be, but we are not opposed to competition in every case either. Mr. Horn. We thank you on that, and as a former State official, I certainly had my fill of low bidders that later tried to jack the price up a million ways. Mr. Styles. Mr. Styles. Yes. Thank you, sir. If there was anything that was said today that I took offense to, I think it was the fact that perhaps the government workers and managers do not do the job as efficiently as their counterparts in the private sector. Experience has shown me that we not only can compete, but we have won competitions consistently against the private sector, and I think when we do compete in the arena--and I will use an example here. I know that Warner Robbins Air Logistics Center in Georgia won a contract for the C-5 Galaxy transport, and they beat out Boeing and Lockheed Martin, and the closest private sector bid was $22 million more than the one turned in by Warner Robbins. I think that is pretty efficient management and effective workmanship. When I was in the Experience with Industry Program, I spent a year working with the private sector, and I will not mention the corporation I worked with, but while I was there, they were developing their total quality management philosophy, if you will, and putting it in place. We were using the North Island Rework Facility in San Diego, a Federal installation as an example for them to put in place their total quality management program. I also, by the way--and I wanted to bring this in, and it kind of works in here. We are talking about the biggest bang for the buck for the American people. When I was with that particular organization, I came across their pay schedule, and for several weeks, I was very disturbed because I knew I had thrown away my career because I was working for the wrong group of folks. This is a 1988, March 5, pay schedule from that private sector organization, and if you compare it to the Federal Almanac's pay schedule for our Federal employees who are very competent and equal at the task, that 1988 schedule has higher salaries than ours do today. So I think we should applaud the Federal employee and the Federal manager for the incredible job that they do day in and day out for our Nation, and I do not think the American people should ever be given a picture of us as being less than our counterparts on the other side of the fence. Thank you. Mr. Horn. We thank you. And now, Dr. Kelman? Mr. Kelman. Let me first just back up what Mr. Styles said at the end. I, too, have an enormous--as a taxpayer and as a teacher, an enormous appreciation for the Federal work force and for the qualities and public spirit and devotion to the public good of our Federal work force. I do not see that as being the issue here. It may be the issue for some idealogues who want to berate the Federal work force. Mr. Tobias asked why I felt the bill was a compromise. I see it as a, by and large, reasonable compromise because it incorporates a principle that was not in the bill as introduced last year, namely the ability of our Federal workers to compete for those activities that are competed. I agree with Mr. Tobias. The one provision, looking at the bill, that I do not like is the judicial review. I do not think that we should be having judicial challenges of these decisions about whether something is inherently governmental. I would want to keep that out of the courts. But to me, the only ideology--and I will not impose it on everybody else, but the ideology that I bring to this is an ideology that says government needs to be managed better, to restore the faith of the American people in the ability of government to do its important missions. Commercial companies themselves have found that significantly increased out-sourcing promotes their abilities as private firms to do their missions as private firms. I believe the same will occur if we encourage greater competition for more non-core government jobs. Mr. Horn. Well, I thank you all, and just to reflect on a little of this, I certainly agree with the point that has been made by both private sector representatives and public sector representatives that we have some excellent people, some very fine people, dedicated civil servants and public servants in government. As I listen to some of you and as we looked at the number of years people had served in various capacities, I noted that over the 40 years that I have worked, I spent 35 as either a Federal official or a State official, and I spent 4\1/ 2\ years with non-profit institutions known as Brookings and American University. I spent half-a-year working my way through college pumping gas for the Standard Stations, Inc., all jobs I happen to have enjoyed, and I certainly would agree that we want the best civil service we have. But I also agree with you, and you said it, in both the public and the private sectors, that competition can be a good thing for both Federal workers and the taxpayers and the Federal workers are paying as much taxes as anybody else, since we in the middle class are the ones that pay the bills. The poor, we took out in 1986, and the rich can find ways to get around the tax laws. So most of us in this room are the ones contributing to the salaries of everybody else in the room, and I want to thank you all for coming. We want to leave the record open for any of you that have any other comments to say. We will leave it open for about 3 weeks, and we would welcome that, and we would welcome anybody else in the audience and any other groups that we have not had a chance to put at this table. We would certainly appreciate the comments because we do want to get together with the Senate and work out what makes sense and what will get the job done. I think the only alternative I can see to the court aspect, which is not in the House bill, it is in the Senate bill, is that you have a very strong office of management, which I am going to be proposing as opposed to an office of what is really budget not management, and they would have to, then, on behalf of the President, whoever that is at any point in time--they would have to be giving some of the direction and analysis on behalf of the President in his role as commander-in-chief, as well as his role as domestic general manager, to a degree, and assure that the various Cabinet Departments do take seriously that basic policy of competition in some areas. With the fleet control, for example, that the Army used in Europe, they saved millions of dollars in that. GSA has saved millions of dollars by careful bidding of a number of things, and those were Hoover Commission reports, essentially, of 1949, 1952, that charged up the Executive Branch to take a look at some of these things. I think your testimony has been very helpful. I also recall that we are working on the commendation and appropriate salary to go with it for a procurement corps, and praise was given by one of the witnesses here today on the outstanding people we have in acquisition and procurement. Well, a lot of those people are being bought off by the private sector. We know we cannot keep everybody, but while the salaries might be lower in some of the public sector in relation to the private sector, you also have to look, to be fair about this, at the benefits that come with various types of public service that might not also come in the private sector. So, just as Mr. Sessions noted that he thought the House package on health care, which is exactly what the Federal Civil Service has, was not as good as what he had in the private sector, I know what that is. It was not as good as what I had in California State Government either. So there is a lot of competition going on for good people, and the government needs to keep up, and good people need to get involved. I have been very pleased with the excellent suggestions that have come from Members of the panel, and I look forward to working with you on this side. I am sure Chairman Brownback will be glad to work with you on the Senate side. Let me thank now the staff that has gone into having this excellent group and this dialog this afternoon. On behalf of the House Subcommittee on Government Management, Information, and Technology, our Staff Director and Counsel, J. Russell George, who has been sitting over there by the phone because I thought I would have to leave for a vote, but Mr. Shuster used his usual charm, and, unanimously, everybody reported out the bill, and I could stay here. Mark Brasher, our Senior Policy Director, behind me, worked very hard on this particular hearing, as did John Hynes, a professional staff member. Matthew Ebert, our clerk, worked very closely with the Senate clerk on this, and David Coher, our intern from USC has been helpful in that area. Mark Stephenson for the Minority has been his usual able self, and so has Dr. Julie Moses of Mr. Kucinich's staff, and Chris Bitsko, who is the court reporter. Also Earley Green, Minority Staff Assistant. Now we get to the Senate Subcommittee on Government Management, Restructuring, and the District of Columbia. We have Michael Rubin, Staff Director; Marie Wheat, Deputy Staff Director; Tom Palmieri, professional staff member; Joyce Yamat, professional staff member; Pete Rowan, staff assistant, and Esmeralda Amos, chief clerk for the Senate Subcommittee. With that, I will bring down this hearing at about exactly 5 o'clock. Thank you. 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