<DOC>
[108th Congress House Hearings]
[From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access]
[DOCID: f:95000.wais]
MAINTAINING A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD FOR D.C. GRADUATES: LEGISLATION TO
REAUTHORIZE THE D.C. COLLEGE ACCESS ACT
=======================================================================
HEARING
before the
COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
ON
H.R. 4012
TO AMEND THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA COLLEGE ACCESS ACT OF 1999 TO
PERMANENTLY AUTHORIZE THE PUBLIC SCHOOL AND PRIVATE SCHOOL TUITION
ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS ESTABLISHED UNDER THE ACT
__________
MARCH 25, 2004
__________
Serial No. 108-172
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Reform
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.gpo.gov/congress/house
http://www.house.gov/reform
______
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COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM
TOM DAVIS, Virginia, Chairman
DAN BURTON, Indiana HENRY A. WAXMAN, California
CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Connecticut TOM LANTOS, California
ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida MAJOR R. OWENS, New York
JOHN M. McHUGH, New York EDOLPHUS TOWNS, New York
JOHN L. MICA, Florida PAUL E. KANJORSKI, Pennsylvania
MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York
STEVEN C. LaTOURETTE, Ohio ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland
DOUG OSE, California DENNIS J. KUCINICH, Ohio
RON LEWIS, Kentucky DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois
JO ANN DAVIS, Virginia JOHN F. TIERNEY, Massachusetts
TODD RUSSELL PLATTS, Pennsylvania WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri
CHRIS CANNON, Utah DIANE E. WATSON, California
ADAM H. PUTNAM, Florida STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts
EDWARD L. SCHROCK, Virginia CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, Maryland
JOHN J. DUNCAN, Jr., Tennessee LINDA T. SANCHEZ, California
NATHAN DEAL, Georgia C.A. ``DUTCH'' RUPPERSBERGER,
CANDICE S. MILLER, Michigan Maryland
TIM MURPHY, Pennsylvania ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of
MICHAEL R. TURNER, Ohio Columbia
JOHN R. CARTER, Texas JIM COOPER, Tennessee
MARSHA BLACKBURN, Tennessee ------ ------
PATRICK J. TIBERI, Ohio ------
KATHERINE HARRIS, Florida BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont
(Independent)
Melissa Wojciak, Staff Director
David Marin, Deputy Staff Director/Communications Director
Rob Borden, Parliamentarian
Teresa Austin, Chief Clerk
Phil Barnett, Minority Chief of Staff/Chief Counsel
C O N T E N T S
----------
Page
Hearing held on March 25, 2004................................... 1
Text of H.R. 4012................................................ 6
Statement of:
Valentine, Kelly, acting director, District of Columbia
Tuition Assistance Grants Program; Argelia Rodriguez,
executive director, District of Columbia College Access
Program; Brian L. Ford, former DC TAG recipient; and
Anthony Talley, director of guidance and counseling,
Washington Math Science Technology Public Charter High
School..................................................... 27
Williams, Anthony A., Mayor, District of Columbia............ 10
Letters, statements, etc., submitted for the record by:
Davis, Chairman Tom, a Representative in Congress from the
State of Virginia, prepared statement of................... 4
Ford, Brian L., former DC TAG recipient, prepared statement
of......................................................... 42
Rodriguez, Argelia, executive director, District of Columbia
College Access Program, prepared statement of.............. 37
Talley, Anthony, director of guidance and counseling,
Washington Math Science Technology Public Charter High
School, prepared statement of.............................. 46
Valentine, Kelly, acting director, District of Columbia
Tuition Assistance Grants Program, prepared statement of... 30
Williams, Anthony A., Mayor, District of Columbia, prepared
statement of............................................... 14
MAINTAINING A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD FOR D.C. GRADUATES: LEGISLATION TO
REAUTHORIZE THE D.C. COLLEGE ACCESS ACT
----------
THURSDAY, MARCH 25, 2004
House of Representatives,
Committee on Government Reform,
Washington, DC.
The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:10 a.m., in
room 2154 Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Tom Davis of
Virginia (chairman of the committee) presiding.
Present: Representatives Tom Davis of Virginia, Waxman, and
Norton.
Staff present: Melissa Wojciak, staff director; David
Marin, deputy staff director and director of communications;
John Hunter, counsel; Robert Borden, counsel/parliamentarian;
Drew Crockett, deputy director of communications; John
Cuaderes, senior professional staff member; Mason Alinger and
Shalley Kim, professional staff members; Teresa Austin, chief
clerk; Brien Beattie, deputy clerk; Corinne Zaccagnini, chief
information officer; Phil Barnett, minority staff director;
Kristin Amerling, minority deputy chief counsel; Karen
Lightfoot, minority communications director/senior policy
advisor; Michelle Ash, minority senior legislative counsel;
Earley Green, minority chief clerk; Jean Gosa, minority
assistant clerk.
Chairman Tom Davis. Good morning. The committee will come
to order.
I want to welcome everybody to today's hearing to discuss
the reauthorization of the District of Columbia Tuition
Assistance Grant Program. The purpose of the hearing is to
highlight the tremendous impact the tuition assistance program
has had on promoting higher education for high school graduates
in the Nation's Capital.
The original aim of the program in 1999 was to provide D.C.
high school graduates the same opportunity that college bound
seniors in each of the 50 States have, specifically a network
of State supported institutions to attend at a relatively low
cost. The program sought to level the playing field for D.C.
residents who do not have access to a similar State supported
system.
To accomplish this, the Tuition Assistance Grant Program
covers the difference between in State and out of State tuition
rates for District high school graduates at public colleges and
universities throughout the Nation. The program also provides
limited financial assistance to D.C. high school graduates
attending private schools in the D.C. metropolitan area as well
as students who attend private historically Black colleges and
universities in other States.
Given that the original authorization for the program
expires after next year, Congresswoman Norton and I introduced
H.R. 4012 on Tuesday to reauthorize the D.C. College Access
Act. After all, the need for the program that existed in 1999
continues to exist today. The impact of the grant program on
the capital city is undeniable. Data from the Department of
Education's integrated post-secondary education data system
showed that the number of D.C. high school graduates continuing
on to college increased from 1,750 in 1998 to 2,230 in 2002.
That's a 28 percent increase since the program was created.
Compare that to the national average over the same period, 5
percent increase.
Granted, there are a number of factors that help explain
this rise, but a person would be hard pressed to deny the role
of the D.C. tuition assistance program. According to a survey
conducted by the program, the vast majority of students who
have received assistance through the program have indicated
that the existence of the grants made a difference in their
decision to attend college and was a key factor in deciding
which college to attend.
Operating hand in hand with the publicly funded D.C.
tuition assistance program is the D.C. College Access Program,
an endeavor created and funded by the private sector to promote
higher education in the District by offering last dollar
financial assistance and college counseling to D.C. high school
students. The double punch provided by the Mayor's D.C. tuition
assistance program and the private sector's D.C. College Access
Program is clearly having a tremendous impact on the
educational opportunities available to D.C. high school
students, and it's equally clear that students are becoming
more aware of and choosing to take advantage of these
opportunities.
As the committee moves forward with the consideration of
H.R. 4012, I look forward to hearing from the witnesses their
first hand accounts of how this program has improved the
quality of education in the Nation's Capital, and what should
be done to improve the program in the future. I want to
especially welcome Mayor Williams here this morning. He was
instrumental in the original passage of the legislation and he
has been committed to the success of the program from the
beginning.
Leveling the playing field for high school graduates in the
District of Columbia continues to be a top priority for me, as
chairman of the committee that has oversight responsibility for
the District of Columbia. After all, I represent a neighboring
jurisdiction, and I've always believed that you can't have a
healthy region without a healthy city. Our destinies are
intertwined, and you can't have one school system across the
river where you're sending 90 percent of the kids to college
each year with great varieties and choices of State university
systems and across the river deny them the same kind of
opportunities. That's what this is all about, one Nation, one
region, indivisible.
I welcome the witnesses here today to discuss this
important issue, and last, I want to welcome the students,
counselors and financial aid officers in the audience this
morning who have come to show their support for this program.
It's great to have you here.
Mr. Waxman.
[The prepared statement of Chairman Tom Davis and the text
of H.R. 4012 follow:]
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Mr. Waxman. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, for holding
this hearing. I want to commend you and Ms. Norton for your
continued support for the District of Columbia Tuition
Assistance Grant Program, the DC TAG. DC TAG provides grants
for undergraduate District students to attend eligible public
universities and colleges nationwide at in-State tuition rates.
In addition, it provides smaller grants for students to attend
private institutions in the D.C. metropolitan area and private
historically Black colleges and universities nationwide.
DC TAG is providing D.C. high school graduates with
wonderful higher educational opportunities. Not only is it
allowing graduates to attend schools that they otherwise would
not have been able to attend, it has helped many graduates
attend college who otherwise would not have attended college at
all. The statistics demonstrate its success. DC TAG has helped
6,527 students pay for college. DC TAG recipients attend
schools in 46 States. The students are from all over the
District, with wards four, five and seven having the highest
percentage of DC TAG students. Over half those students
participating in DC TAG state that they are the first in their
immediate families to attend college.
As a Member of Congress from California, I understand the
value of higher education choice. California high school
graduates who want to attend a public higher education
institution have the opportunity to consider many community
colleges, Cal State schools, and the University of California
system schools. High school graduates in the District of
Columbia also need choices.
As Congress moves forward with reauthorization of the DC
TAG Program, I'm mindful that, just like students in the
District, students in California and in all States are
struggling due to the increasing costs of higher education. I
hope Congress will also support helping all students afford
college through mechanisms such as grants, loan and tax
deductibility. I also understand that the States are struggling
to pay for their share of these costs. The states pay the
greatest share of the expenses for the public schools for
higher education, I hope that we, in Washington, when
developing policies do not ignore the States' economic needs,
but assist them so that they can, especially in this time of
economic downturn, still keep faith with the students in their
public universities, colleges and schools.
I look forward to the testimony from our distinguished
witnesses on the important matter at hand. I also look forward
to quickly marking up H.R. 4012, the bill reauthorizing DC TAG.
I commend Ms. Norton and Mr. Davis, both from this region, Ms.
Norton representing the District of Columbia, for their
leadership in establishing the program in the first place, and
their deep commitment to continuing it. This compliments to the
students that will have an opportunity, as I indicated, many
for the first time in their families, to get a higher
education.
That is so important, it's what this country is all about,
the opportunity to move up in the economic ladder, to have
every chance to succeed and to fulfill your ambitions. That
seems to me what this country is all about. And for those who
can't afford it, we need to make it available to them. Thank
you very much.
Chairman Tom Davis. Thank you very much.
And Ms. Norton, you were in on the creation of this and
very instrumental. Any opening comments?
Ms. Norton. Yes, Mr. Chairman. I won't say I'm the mother
and you're the father, because I don't know what that would
imply. [Laughter.]
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for your early scheduling of this
hearing on the reauthorization of the District of Columbia
College Access Act of 1999, which funds the D.C. Tuition
Assistance Grant Program [TAG], affording ample time to get the
bill through the House and the Senate. It would be difficult to
cite a bill that is as universally popular among residents of
all backgrounds in the District. Although our $5,000 homebuyer
tax credit, allowing $5,000 to be deducted from the income
taxes of residents buying a home in D.C. is another
congressional bill that has had similar city-wide appeal.
However, the D.C. College Access Act provides simultaneous
and immediate benefits to both District residents and to the
city itself. The DC TAG recipients range from residents for
whom college was more of a dream than a possibility to
residents who might otherwise have moved to the Maryland or
Virginia suburbs, and along with them, more of the District's
already depleted tax base. The rising cost of tuition is a
significant reason why many residents left and others refused
to settle here, rather than in Maryland or Virginia, which each
has more than 30 different kinds of colleges and universities
to fit the specific needs and interests of residents.
D.C. has only one public university, the vital University
of the District of Columbia. I am pleased that because of the
DC TAG bill, we were able to get UDC funded on an annual basis
as an HBCU for the first time in its history.
I am particularly grateful to you, Mr. Chairman, and to
Ranking Member Waxman, as well as to Senators George Voinovich,
Mary Landrieu and Dick Durban for your leadership efforts in
obtaining and sustaining TAG. And to President Bush, who came
to office several years after the bill was in effect, saw the
evidence of its success and has continued to fund it in his
budget at authorized levels.
The evidence of the success of the program and return on
the dollar to residents and to the city itself is not in
dispute. Close monitoring by the GAO and by our office has
shown that TAG has generally been well run. Nevertheless, we
will be interested in learning whether 5 years of experience
suggests any significant operational improvement. Perhaps the
most important issue before us today, however, is the financial
viability of TAG going forward. The growth of the program has
been phenomenal. It would be unfortunate if projected
shortfalls of $10.2 million in the next fiscal year and up to
$34 million in shortfall in fiscal year 2008 forced a change in
the nature and structure of the program itself.
If for example TAG subsidizes only a part of in-State
tuition, its value to many residents who cannot afford college
and its use as an incentive in attracting and maintaining tax
paying residents will diminish. The $17 million amount used in
1999 as we pressed for this bill was a best guess. It was a
pretty good guess. Because despite rapid growth in TAG
recipients, the program still fully funds the amount provided
to every student. The manifest success of the program and its
benefits to residents and to the District's economy argues
strongly for every effort to ensure that TAG keeps abreast of
inflation and of the demand for education by parents and
students.
As we are all aware, tuition at State colleges has
increased dramatically during the poor economy of the last 3
years. I have been amazed by the huge increases in tuition that
State legislatures have been quick to approve, forcing many
students to drop out, postpone or perhaps never attend college.
Rising tuition costs would make TAG worthless for many of our
young people in D.C. who use it. Students who attend private
colleges in this expensive city and region receive only $2,500,
a helpful amount, but one that also must be reviewed in the
context of rapidly rising tuition costs.
I welcome not only Mayor Williams and Kelly Valentine, the
Acting Director of the program, but especially our witnesses
who can testify about TAG's real life effects, possibilities
and problems. The privately funded D.C. College Access Program,
whose director, Argelia Rodriguez, will also testify, has been
a perfect match for TAG. CAP's last dollar funding is a welcome
financial supplement, but CAP's work is particularly invaluable
in helping D.C. students maneuver through the often byzantine
issues that face students who may be the first in their
families to attend college.
I look forward to learning more about TAG and CAP from
those who have taken the program on paper and made it work for
the D.C. residents and hearing from the D.C. residents who have
put these programs to good use. Thank you very much, Mr.
Chairman.
Chairman Tom Davis. Thank you very much.
And our first witness we have, the Mayor of the District of
Columbia, who was instrumental in helping set this up, the
Honorable Tony Williams. Tony, would you raise your hand with
me?
[Witness sworn.]
Chairman Tom Davis. Thank you. Thanks for taking the time
to come today and thanks for your leadership in this issue.
STATEMENT OF ANTHONY A. WILLIAMS, MAYOR, DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
Mayor Williams. Chairman Davis and Congresswoman Norton, I
want to recognize you and thank both of you for your leadership
in general and certainly for your leadership and partnership
as, what is it, mother and father of this program, for pulling
it together.
Chairman Tom Davis. That's how rumors get started.
[Laughter.]
Mayor Williams. And I certainly want to acknowledge
Congressman Waxman not only for his partnership with us on
activities like this, but also for his leadership on the
environment. We've certainly learned a lot of lessons over the
last couple of weeks, and his leadership over the years I think
is really coming to the fore now. I want to thank all of you
for that.
Another person I really want to mention who really played a
leadership role with the both of you in putting this together
was the great, late Kay Graham who leaned on a lot of people to
help get this program forward. I think this is just another
legacy of all the wonderful things she did in our city. I
certainly want to acknowledge her and the continuing work of
the Graham family on this.
And last but not least, as you've mentioned, Mr. Chairman,
all the great folks who have actually benefited from this
program who can testify to that today. All of us are pleased to
have the opportunity to present testimony on the Tuition
Assistance Grant Program, and I'm pleased to be here to answer
your questions.
Since its inception, DC TAG has awarded over $63 million to
District residents with higher education goals. As you consider
reauthorization of the program, I believe it would be useful to
examine if DC TAG has achieved its primary goal of expanding
both the number of D.C. residents attending college and the
choice of post-secondary institutions available to them. Very
simply, I think the answer to both of these questions is a
resounding, affirmative yes. Quite simply, were it not for this
program, thousands of D.C. families could not have afforded to
send their sons and daughters to college, and moreover, many
families would have been faced with very limited options in
terms of where their children went to school.
The evidence before us is really quite compelling. For
example, more D.C. residents are attending college than ever
before. Between 1998 and 2002, the number of D.C. high school
graduates who enrolled as freshmen in colleges and universities
nationwide has increased by 28 percent. No State in the Union
can make that claim. This unprecedented figure is due in large
part, if not almost exclusively, I believe, to DC TAG and the
expanded opportunities for D.C. residents that result.
For many families, their children are first generation
college attendees. I think you'll hear testimony on this today.
A survey among Woodson High School graduates, and I've been
over to the Tower of Power, as we say, and talked to students,
a survey among Woodson High School graduates using the program
shows that more than 50 percent of those students are first in
their families to go to college. Besides being an enormous
source of pride for these families, this fact demonstrates, I
think, a lot for the educational attainment of their siblings,
other children and grandchildren to follow. Indeed, I believe
it can significantly improve economic development and other
societal factors in neighborhoods that have been plagued by
chronic underdevelopment, unemployment and limited education
attainment.
Another fact for District families, DC TAG has made college
considerably more affordable. In fact, during the 1999-2000
school year, undergraduates from the District paid more than
twice the national average to attend public institutions
outside the District, while during the 2000-2001 school year,
not only did DC TAG level the playing field, but students saved
thousands of dollars in college costs.
Another fact, DC TAG has become an essential element in
higher eduction planning for our families. All together, more
than 6,500 students have received tuition assistance since
2000. The number of awards for current school year is more than
4,000, twice the number of awards in our first year.
Now, our students have attended more than 300 institutions
in 46 States, including nationally recognized public
institutions, such as University of Virginia and the University
of Michigan at Ann Arbor, as well as many public historically
Black colleges and universities. I mentioned Virginia State,
Delaware State, plus HBCUs such as Morehouse and Spellman in
Hampton, and local jewels like our own Georgetown University,
Howard University, Trinity College and University of Maryland
at College Park.
Participation in the program represents a full diversity of
the city, with representation across the city's wards. This was
a concern when this was started, and I think this has been
addressed by experience. Our outreach efforts have been
successful insofar as the participants represent young people
from all ethnic backgrounds and income levels as well as
students from virtually every public and non-public high school
where District residents attend. And as we seek to improve the
prospects of our current residents and expand our base of tax
paying citizens, the TAG Program is an important tool for
economic and social development.
We are excited about the prospect that these graduates will
utilize their experiences and newly minted degrees at home here
in the District. The academic success of these students hold
great promise that they will return to our city as catalysts to
sustain the social and economic changes that are really
prerequisites for the city to realize its position as a leader
in this new economy.
In many ways, though, DC TAG is a victim of its own
success. As previously mentioned, our residents are attending
college at record levels. That's great. They're attending
colleges across the country, including some of our most
prestigious. That's great. Beyond the rising number of
participants, we're faced with significant increases in public
tuition costs across the country. The impact on the program's
budget as shown by the fact that in our first year, under $10
million in awards were issued while this year it will be closer
to $21 million.
So we're facing a situation with great demand, which is
great, we're also facing a situation with higher costs across
the country. And you mentioned, both you and Congresswoman
Norton mentioned this higher cost issue in your statements.
With your increased support, though, we anticipate that
over the next 5 years, DC TAG will grant over 30,000 awards.
Specifically, we'll need annual appropriation of at least $25.5
million, roughly, $25.6 million exactly, to enable us to
continue offering the same level of benefits to new graduates.
Without such an increase, we will be faced with several very
unpleasant possibilities. And they really are unpleasant when
you put it against the backdrop of all the great things that
have happened here.
What are they? Well, decreasing the lifetime award maximum,
reducing the yearly maximum awards and/or converting the DC TAG
to a needs based program. We know that this would limit
participation in the program and otherwise narrow the choices
available to our residents.
Now, legislators might ask if it's not reasonable for the
city to use local funds to sustain the program. Mr. Chairman,
such sentiment I think ignores the basic premise of the
program, namely that the relatively small population of the
District and the federally imposed constrictions on fiscal
condition preclude us from funding the sort of post-secondary
institutions that our citizens deserve. We have our UDC, we've
struggled to fund our UDC adequately. But we need a full range
of choices of our students. This program helps to level the
playing field by granting D.C. residents the sorts of options
enjoyed by residents of other States.
Our own public university, as I said, is constrained by
both funding and scale from offering our residents a full
educational menu. As long as Congress continues to limit the
city's tax base, and impose financial burdens, situations that
are directly related to denial of voting representation, we are
unable to fund this important program. Few cities across the
country have the responsibility of providing a higher education
network for their residents. All cities in the country can rely
upon their State capital to provide this kind of service. No
city in America does what we do, no State government to
administer a university system and no financial base to make up
the difference.
So I strongly urge you, Mr. Chairman and members of the
committee, to reauthorize this program and to work with us to
ensure through the appropriation committees that we ensure full
funding to make this program available to all District citizens
and residents, make it available to our families regardless of
need, wherever they live in our great city. With that, I'd be
happy to answer your questions and look forward to working with
you in the future on this important program.
[The prepared statement of Mayor Williams follows:]
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Chairman Tom Davis. Mayor Williams, thank you very much.
We talked about the city's responsibility for higher
education, if we didn't come in. Every other city in the United
States has a State that they share responsibility with. And
higher education has been a State responsibility. The District
doesn't. I mean, it's that simple, when you take a look at
this. We couldn't expect the city to have the kind of education
system at the higher levels that States offer. And this was
just an attempt to level the playing field, quite frankly.
So I think your point is very well taken. I think this is a
congressional responsibility. My opinion is that the program
ought to probably be enhanced. I was just taking a look at the
colleges and universities that the kids in the city have gone
to, and it's a very impressive array of universities. Members
need to understand that this helps a lot of their schools back
home, when you have kids coming here, paying the full boat in
terms of them making their numbers work.
This has also helped the city demographically, hasn't it,
stopped the flight out of the city as people get their kids
toward college age, and they can go to Virginia or go to
Maryland or something like that? Have you seen a demographic
limit when you start offering the same higher educational
opportunities that States do?
Mayor Williams. We've had, as you know, some issues with
the demographers, as cities always do. But I think if you look
at all the other evidence, statistical and anecdotal, and
people applying for permits, licenses, renewals, housing demand
in the city, you see that, I think, our population has
stabilized and it is turning back up in two important ways.
One, on the higher end, yes, you're seeing people who are
staying in the city because there are those choices. But as I
mentioned with Woodson, and this is very important, you're
seeing families that are struggling that otherwise would have
left the city, and that's even a worse situation, where you're
struggling to make it, enter the world of responsibility, the
city can't help you, otherwise would have left. And they left
over the last 20, 30 years, now they're staying because they
know there is promise and potential for their kids.
That figure, I think, to share that with other Members
here, that figure at Woodson that I mentioned, 50 percent
increase in matriculation is a powerful figure.
Chairman Tom Davis. I think as you and Ms. Norton and
others go out and spread the word in the city and it gets out,
I mean, the way this was envisioned to work, and Mrs. Graham
would have said the same thing, kids start going to college
because instead of just a dream it becomes something affordable
to them. One kid starts, another kid starts, all of a sudden
it's the thing to do.
In my local high schools in Fairfax, you walk up to
somebody, what are you doing next year, everybody's going to
college. I'm going here, I'm applying here, that's just what
everybody does. We need to make that this way in the city, too,
that this is the thing to do.
And this is how it starts. You take a look at the market
increase, and as we're a long way from where we want to be,
obviously, Mayor Williams, but this is a start. Maybe an
enhancement of the program, even a modest enhancement, Ms.
Norton, could help that as we work our way through some tough
budgetary times.
I think the program has been a tremendous success. I think
the only boundaries are basically our ability to go out and
spread the word to the kids in the city and have the funds
available. That's our limitation.
How many more people could take advantage of this, do you
think, if funding were unlimited? Does anybody have an idea of
how many kids we're missing right now because we have
limitations on the funding? Next panel will have that.
Mayor Williams. My understanding, and it's just been
confirmed, is that there's no limitation now, but as we project
into the future, over the next 5 years, if we don't make the
changes we're talking about, the level of funding----
Chairman Tom Davis. We're going to come up against the
limits.
Mayor Williams [continuing]. Then we will see a loss of
students.
Chairman Tom Davis. I think that's where we're heading,
just trying to stay ahead of the curve.
Let me again thank you for your help in this, and I think
the program has been a success. I have people stop me all the
time who are D.C. students, who are somewhere and thank me for
the program. Usually when I run into somebody from D.C.,
they're not thanking me for something. [Laughter.]
But this is one you feel good about, you've given
opportunity to kids that they wouldn't have had otherwise.
Ms. Norton.
Ms. Norton. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I found the Mayor's
testimony quite complete. I do have a question or two for him.
I do want to reemphasize what you said about the model that
we used in drawing this bill, it was a State model. The
chairman uses the term level playing field. It seems to me that
our first obligation is to keep it as close to what residents
in the States experience. And it's amazing what they
experience, because they go to graduate school. Imagine going
to law school. If you go to Georgetown, where I still teach,
and somebody were to say, you can go, if it were a State
school, the low in-State tuition, the difference would be huge.
But keeping to this model, indeed, Mr. Chairman, if you
recall, we insisted on this model so scrupulously that when
some of your residents came to see you about whether or not in
Virginia private schools would qualify under our program, you
remember that many State schools give amounts to go to private
schools, lesser amounts, nevertheless amounts to go to private
schools. And it was at your suggestion that we added private
institutions.
That has really been a big boon. Because if you look at the
largest number of students who use the TAG Program, the largest
number go to Howard University, which means that they stay
home, therefore save travel and living expenses, probably, and
therefore it has meant something important, whether you go away
to school in a region or in the country or whether you stay at
home.
As for the District picking up some of the cost, Mr. Mayor,
as I understand it now, you are in the process, and I'm working
with you, the chairman is working with me, indeed, as I speak,
of trying to get the Federal Government to take over State
functions which no city bears. So we don't do the city a favor
by putting yet another State function on the city. The city
already has UDC, and we say, OK, you take the costs also of
students going to State supported institutions.
So I'd like to know what that would do budgetarily if you
had to take on this State function. Do you think there's room
in your budget to take on part of the cost here, or indeed,
don't you already pay, doesn't the city already have its own
program to assist in tuition for students who need some
assistance?
Mayor Williams. In the LEAP Program we added $1.5 million--
--
Ms. Norton. What is it called?
Mayor Williams. Leveraging Education Attainment Program, or
Achievement Program, a million and a half. But I think the
larger issue you address is that, the GAO has found this,
coastal cities tend to be higher cost. We have a high
concentration of poverty in our city, we have a number of
Federal responsibilities, particularly in the infrastructure
area, without the resources to meet those responsibilities. So
people can look at our budget and say, well, can't you just
find money for this in your budget? Yes, we can, but we're
robbing Peter to pay Paul.
And you're right, it is particularly onerous when you're
talking about a State responsibility and this whole issue is
caused by a mismatch of State responsibilities without a State
tax base and no State to take care of it.
Ms. Norton. Indeed, if I may offer an opinion, Mr. Mayor,
if you do perhaps have any extra money, I would suggest you put
it into the D.C. public schools, so that children can be
prepared to go to college somewhere, rather than into higher
education. First thing is first.
Mayor Williams. Well, if I could just answer that as a
great example, because I know all the States come up here
asking for money for their IDEA, for their special education to
help their States take care of these costs. We've got a double
whammy. We're a city faced with a State responsibility which
has a huge chunk of our public education budget.
Ms. Norton. So to put it in DEA, or let me ask you, as I
remember it, didn't D.C. either have to decimate or cut its
capital budget for the public schools last year?
Mayor Williams. Both years. And we're proud of the fact
that we've gotten the District an investment grade rating now.
We're hoping that we'll get another improvement this year. But
in order to do that, as you all know over the years from
monitoring our finances, we have to maintain the right per
capita debt load. In other words, it's like the family, we've
got to lighten up on the credit cards.
So basically what we've done is we've dumped around $300
million of capital off the capital budget. But we've protected
the schools. Well, when people drive in raggedy roads, when
they see infrastructure that isn't quite what it should be,
that's an example of that. So we're being fiscally responsible,
but we are robbing our infrastructure.
Ms. Norton. Including your school infrastructure.
Mayor Williams. I think the business community, for
example, that works with our schools, they go in there and tell
you that you're over $2 billion, somewhere between $2 billion
and $3 billion in your school capital needs, for all your
schools combined. And we're putting in about $800 million, $900
million, it sounds like a lot of money, but it doesn't really
approach what the need is.
Ms. Norton. Thank you very much, Mayor Williams, and thank
you, Mr. Chairman.
Mayor Williams. Thank you.
Chairman Tom Davis. Tony, thank you very much for being
here.
Mayor Williams. Thank you, and thank you, Congresswoman
Norton.
Chairman Tom Davis. We have a second panel, we'll call you
up now. We'll take a 2-minute recess.
[Recess.]
Chairman Tom Davis. We'll swear everybody in.
[Witnesses sworn.]
Chairman Tom Davis. Thank you. Our next panel is a very
distinguished panel. We have Kelly Valentine, the acting
director of the District of Columbia Tuition Assistance Grants
Program; Argelia Rodriguez, the executive director of the
District of Columbia College Access Program; Brian Ford, a
former DC TAG recipient, and Anthony Talley, the director of
guidance and counseling at the Washington Math Science and
Technology Public Charter High School.
Right in front of you are some lights. The green light
means go, it means you have up to 4 minutes, then it will turn
yellow, that means you have 1 minute left, and try to sum up in
5 minutes. Your total testimony is in the record, so it's part
of the official record when we put up the hearings. Questions
will be based on that.
So try to keep it to 5 minutes and then we'll go to
questions. Let me just thank each of you for being here today.
We're really happy to have you and hear about this as we move
to reauthorize this.
Ms. Valentine, we'll start with you and then move straight
on down. Welcome.
STATEMENTS OF KELLY VALENTINE, ACTING DIRECTOR, DISTRICT OF
COLUMBIA TUITION ASSISTANCE GRANTS PROGRAM; ARGELIA RODRIGUEZ,
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA COLLEGE ACCESS
PROGRAM; BRIAN L. FORD, FORMER DC TAG RECIPIENT; AND ANTHONY
TALLEY, DIRECTOR OF GUIDANCE AND COUNSELING, WASHINGTON MATH
SCIENCE TECHNOLOGY PUBLIC CHARTER HIGH SCHOOL
Ms. Valentine. Good morning, Chairman Davis, Congresswoman
Norton and other members of the committee. My name is Kelly
Valentine and I am the interim director of the District's
Tuition Assistance Grants Program [DC TAG]. I am proud to be
here today to provide testimony on the success of the DC TAG
Program and the unprecedented value that it has added to
numerous families across the District of Columbia.
Your support and efforts to make this program a reality is,
without doubt, one of the cornerstones to ensuring that the
Williams administration realizes its goal to strengthen
children, youth, family and elders. In particular, in the 12
days that I have been working in the DC TAG office, I am
impressed by this program's ability to disburse more than $63
million to 6,527 students and am excited by the possibility of
doubling the impact of this service to the community as we
embark on the next phase of programming.
While you consider reauthorizing the program, I implore you
also to add to your thinking a few facts that speak to DC TAG's
overwhelming success. While the first cohort of students who
took advantage of the grant are preparing for graduation, we
anticipate we will all soon realize benefits that the program
has had for students, entire families and their communities.
To put this reality into perspective, let me begin by
providing you with some hard numbers. To date, close to $25
million has been disbursed to public institutions across 46
States and the District of Columbia. Over $23 million has been
disbursed to public and private HBCUs. Nearly $3 million has
been disbursed to colleges and universities in the Washington
Metropolitan area.
It should be noted that Virginia, Maryland and D.C. round
off the top five States receiving DC TAG grants. These figures
speak directly to our students' desires to broaden their
horizon as well as the institutions' willingness to support the
District's efforts to provide residents with a vast array of
first class options for higher education.
Moreover, the students that have benefited from DC TAG
reside in every ward in the city. Ward 4 continues to lead the
way at 19 percent of students using the program, followed
closely by wards 5, 7, 8 and 3, at 17 percent, 16 percent, 11
percent and 10 percent, respectively. Initial surveys of
graduating high school seniors from DCPS and charter schools
indicate that for 75 percent of these students, DC TAG has made
the difference in their decision to continue their education
beyond high school. Sixty-five percent of the survey students
indicated that the existence of the DC TAG Program has enabled
them to exercise their right to choose the college that they
feel will best suit their needs. Fifty-five percent of the
students surveyed will be the first in their families to pursue
higher education.
It is clear from these results, amongst others, that the DC
TAG Program is meeting and exceeding initial expectations
framed in the unparalleled legislation signed into law on
November 12, 1999. To encourage even greater participation in
the program, DC TAG has made a number of notable adjustments in
its program implementation. To name a few significant changes,
DC TAG has redesigned its application to be more user friendly
and we are working diligently to bring the application process
on line by June of this year.
Also, we look forward to working more closely with DC CAP
to strengthen retention efforts already underway under their
leadership. In addition, we are working with the business
offices of participating institutions to develop seamless
integrated disbursement processes. These and other operational
improvements, coupled with strategic marketing and outreach
efforts, will make certain that DC TAG continues to be
successful.
Most importantly, as Mayor Williams has indicated, to
ensure the program's continued success, DC TAG needs an annual
appropriation of at least $25.6 million which will surely
enable us to realize the program's anticipated outcomes. As the
Mayor once said, DC TAG has made the dream of attending college
a reality for thousands of District residents. In a few
minutes, you will hear first hand testimony on how DC TAG has
made obtaining a first class education a possibility for
District students.
In conclusion, I thank you for the opportunity to testify
before you on the District of Columbia Tuition Assistance Grant
Program and look forward to answering any additional questions
that you may have.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Valentine follows:]
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Chairman Tom Davis. Thank you very much.
Ms. Rodriguez, thanks for being with us.
Ms. Rodriguez. Good morning. My name is Argelia Rodriguez,
and I am the executive director of the District of Columbia
College Access Program [DC CAP]. I am delighted to have been
asked by the committee to speak to you today about the
importance of the reauthorization of the D.C. College Access
Act.
Let me begin by thanking the Members of Congress who have
championed this program from the beginning and who secured
passage of what may be the single most important and successful
education initiative in the history of the District of
Columbia.
In particular, I would like to acknowledge you, Chairman
Davis, and you, Delegate Norton, for your extraordinary efforts
to transform a good idea into an act of Congress. The D.C.
College Access Act was born here in the House of
Representatives and we're grateful for the leadership of
Congressman Istook, Knollenberg, Frelinghuysen and Fattah of
the House Appropriations Committee for ensuring that the act
was fully funded from the start. And in fact, the D.C. College
Access Act has enjoyed not only bipartisan support, but
unanimous support in the first 5 years in both the House and
the Senate, where Senators Voinovich, DeWine, Durban and
Landrieu have been particularly helpful in securing passage and
the funding of this landmark program.
D.C. College Access was seen from the start as a
partnership between Government and the private sector. The
Government agreed to pay the difference between in State and
out of State tuition for D.C. students attending college beyond
the borders of the District of Columbia, and the business and
the philanthropic communities in this area agreed to provide
the resources necessary to launch an unprecedented college
counseling admissions program for D.C. public high school
students.
The D.C. College Access Program [DC CAP], represents the
fulfillment of this agreement and the private sector's
substantial and long term commitment to increasing D.C. college
student access. DC CAP has recruited, trained and put to work
full time school based DC CAP advisors in all 18 D.C. public
high schools. We provide direct college counseling services to
more than 12,000 public high school students and their families
starting in ninth grade. We start by telling these students
that college is not an impossible dream, and that thanks to you
and this remarkable legislation, they can go to college if they
get the right preparation in high school.
As the high school years unfold, we make sure that these
students are taking the courses they need to gain admission to
college. We assist them with their college applications, we
help them secure financial aid and scholarships from public and
private sources. If there is still a need left over, DC CAP
will provide them with up to $2,000 a year in last dollar award
scholarships assistance to make sure they can pay all the
expenses associated with college.
Once they're in college, DC CAP retention advisors continue
to work with these students and their families, providing on-
campus student support services, academic and financial aid
counseling for up to 5 years of college to help ensure that
students are able to complete their education. DC CAP is
currently tracking, counseling and/or providing financial
assistance to almost 3,400 students at over 400 colleges around
the country and has awarded almost $5 million in scholarships
to low income students.
This partnership has succeeded beyond our wildest
expectations. DC CAP as a non-profit organization has raised
some $35 million in private funds over the past 5 years. Much
has come through significant grants from Lockheed Martin, Exxon
Mobil, Fannie Mae, Marriott International, Verizon, the Morris
and Gwendolyn Cafritz Foundation, Sallie Mae, the Riggs
National Corp., the Eugene and Agnes E. Meyer Foundation, the
Kimsey Foundation, Carnegie Corp., Comcast, Bank of America,
Dell, Wachovia, U.S. Airways, I could go on and on, and at
least 100 other companies and philanthropic organizations.
We've also raised money through special fundraising events
such as Fight for Children's School Night, the Sallie Mae 10K
Run and the Tony Kornheiser and Mike Wilbon Celebrity Golf
Classic and Roast. We've received large anonymous gifts and
small donations from private citizens. The community is fully
invested in DC CAP and their investment, along with yours, is
paying large dividends already. This remarkable partnership
between Congress and the Washington Community has in 5 short
years become a national model for what the public and private
sectors can do when they harness their distinct resources to a
common purpose.
The D.C. College Access Act is an unequivocal, unqualified
success. While historical numbers are difficult to verify, we
believe that the number of D.C. public high school graduates
going on to college has doubled in the last 5 years, rising
dramatically from 30 percent to 60 percent of students. Our
belief is based on the unprecedented increases in D.C. student
enrollment in colleges and universities around the country, as
reported by the individual institutions themselves.
As an example, from the fall of 1999 to the fall of 2002,
D.C. student freshmen enrollment has increased 312 percent at
Virginia State University, 900 percent at St. Mary's College of
Maryland, 200 percent at North Carolina A&T, 185 percent at
Ohio State, 243 percent at Penn State, 206 percent at Norfolk
University, and 100 percent at the University of Vermont. I
could go on and on, case after case, State after State, citing
examples of colleges and universities all around the country
that are reporting that their student enrollment has doubled,
tripled and even quadrupled in less than 4 years.
And let me reiterate that these statistics are not numbers
that have been gleaned, extrapolated, interpreted or massaged
in any manner. These statistics have been provided by the
individual enrollment offices. And what does this mean? We know
what this means is that the whole new population of students of
the District of Columbia have been given the opportunity to go
to college and they are taking it. The impact of the D.C.
College Access Act simply cannot be overstated. The legislation
has helped literally thousands of students who otherwise would
never have the opportunity
to go.
In conclusion, I urge you to reauthorize the act, because
in fact it's the act of Congress that has earned the right to
be renewed. Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Rodriguez follows:]
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Chairman Tom Davis. Thank you very much.
Mr. Ford, welcome. Thank you for being here.
Mr. Ford. Good morning, Chairman Davis and members of this
distinguished committee. Thank you for allowing me to come and
speak to you. My name is Brian L. Ford, and I'm a former
recipient of the D.C. Tuition Assistance Grant Program.
Born and raised in Washington, DC, I have experienced first
hand the constant struggle to survive the dangerous streets
while my family struggled to stay above the poverty line. Being
able to afford college seemed far-fetched growing up in
Southeast D.C. However, I am a goal oriented person and I did
not let these things deter me from achieving my goal. I knew by
the grace of God and support of my family, friends and others
that I would find a way to pay for school.
In 1998, I graduated from Eastern Senior High School here
in the District and I decided to attend the University of
Delaware, where I majored in political science. At Delaware, I
received financial aid to assist me in paying for school.
However, it was not enough. The first 2 years, my parents had
to contribute almost $3,000 to help me pay for school, which
was a lot for my parents at the time. I had two sisters and a
nephew for whom my parents were still providing.
In 2000, my junior year in college, I applied for and was
awarded a D.C. Tuition Assistance Grant. For the first time
since I started college, my parents did not have to pay
anything out of their pocket for me to attend school. With the
D.C. Tuition Assistance Grant, along with other financial aid,
I was able to have my tuition paid in full. I was able to focus
fully on obtaining my college degree and not worry if my
tuition would be paid. My grades improved to the point where I
made the Deans List twice and earned a 3.0 by graduation.
I graduated in May 2002 from the University of Delaware
with a Bachelors of Art degree in Political Science. That day
was a very special day for my family and me. My family was
proud to witness one of their own graduating from college. I
was proud of myself for accomplishing my goals and thank
everyone who made that day possible.
Currently, I am a financial aid counselor at Trinity
College here in D.C., where I advise students about financial
aid and encourage D.C. students to apply for grants like D.C.
Tuition Assistance Grant. We serve a significant population of
D.C. residents who demonstrate a very high level of financial
need. Some of these students are struggling to stay in school,
and the D.C. Tuition Assistance Grant assists students to
continue in school while in some cases borrowing less in
student loans. Many D.C. residents at Trinity College are not
currently able to benefit from this program, and I hope that
some issues can be addressed in the reauthorization process to
allow all D.C. residents to be eligible.
In conclusion, I want to give a special thanks to Delegate
Eleanor Holmes Norton and this committee for developing this
program. I hope that you will agree with me that the D.C.
Tuition Assistance Grant Program is a necessity for the city of
Washington, DC, and its residents. I urge you to please
continue to provide financial support to the D.C. Tuition
Assistance Grant Program so 1 day students like myself can have
a college degree hanging on their wall for the world to see.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Ford follows:]
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Chairman Tom Davis. Thank you very much, Brian.
Mr. Talley.
Mr. Talley. Good morning. My name is Anthony Talley, and
I'm the director of guidance and counseling at Washington
Mathematics Science Technology Public Charter High School.
The District of Columbia College Access Act of 1999, Public
Law 106-98, as amended, established a tuition assistance
program providing D.C. high school graduates with tuition
assistance to take advantage of higher education resources in
the surrounding region and throughout the country. This
legislation authorized funding for the program for 5 years. I,
as a guidance counselor, want to personally thank Chairman
Davis and Ms. Norton for your outstanding work.
This program has a direct impact on D.C. high school
students. Many students are the first in their families to
attend college, Rutgers University, Frostburg State, Temple
University, Penn State University, Hampton University, Johnson
C. Smith University, North Carolina Central University,
University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, North Carolina A&T
State University, Fayetteville State University, University of
Alabama, Ball State University, Edward Waters College, Kentucky
State University, University of Cincinnati, Lincoln University
in Pennsylvania and Missouri, Columbia University, University
of Delaware, Vorhees College, Virginia State University,
Norfolk State University, Winston Salem State University,
University of Maryland at College Park, University of Maryland
Eastern Shore, American University, Georgetown University,
Howard University, and George Washington. The list goes on and
on.
I am an advocate for all students and parents, particularly
from Washington Mathematics Science Technology Public Charter
High School, H.D. Woodson Senior High School and the Washington
Tennis and Education Foundation, Center for Excellence. Many of
our students have been accepted to Yale, Harvard, Princeton,
Dartmouth, Tufts and Stanford. However, this funding does not
apply. This is a limitation based on current law.
Chairman Davis, your committee must review future costs of
attending State grant institutions, historically Black colleges
and universities and local colleges and universities within the
D.C. metropolitan area. All future students have the right to
share this process. And I want to thank you.
In closing, students seated in this chamber have already
been accepted to colleges throughout the country. Most have
received their official award notification of eligibility for
the District of Columbia Tuition Assistance Grant, the TAG, for
2004-2005 school year. Would those students who have received
the notification and are waiting for notification please stand?
Chairman Tom Davis. Thank you all for being with us. This
adds a lot.
[Applause.]
Mr. Talley. In addition, a student who received his award
from last year is also present. If he would please stand, he is
now attending the University of Alabama at Birmingham, an H.D.
Wood-
son graduate.
[Applause.]
Mr. Talley. Let me also add this. I urge full funding and
reauthorization of the TAG Program. Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Talley follows:]
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Chairman Tom Davis. Thank you very much. Thank all of you.
I've got votes on the floor, I'm going to have to go.
Unfortunately, Ms. Norton doesn't get to go over. We're working
on that, aren't we, Ms. Norton? It ought to happen.
But I'm going to let her finish, chair the meeting and
conclude it. But I have a couple of questions first.
First of all, thank all of you for what you're doing, and
to the students, you're the reason we do this. You're the
future. We just want to give you the tools, and the rest is up
to you. But thank you very much for being here. It means a lot
to me and I know to Ms. Norton as well. It is our intent to
move to reauthorization in this committee and move it to the
House floor as quickly as possible and get it over to the
Senate. We think this is an important bill and with all the
other things that Congress has on its plate, sometimes
legislation like this can slip through the cracks if we kind of
wait until the last minute. But your being here, your testimony
really adds to the record.
I have a couple of questions. What percent of the students
that are participating are from private schools, and what are
from public schools in the city, public, private, charter, do
you have any breakout of that?
Ms. Valentine. I believe 80 percent are from public
schools.
Chairman Tom Davis. Very good. Very good. I mean, it
applies to everybody, that's not it, but I just was curious to
know that.
I would be interested, you don't have to get this
information now, the number of graduates that we have each year
in the school system. I know that you have people dropping out,
and this has nothing to do with the dropout rates. Dropout
rates are going to happen. These are kids that graduate and
there are opportunities when they graduate. The kids that don't
graduate, we're looking at other strategies to help them get
there.
But that has nothing to do with this program. This program
is for a kid who graduates, there's a future for you if you
want to go to higher education. And we'd like to know how many
graduates in the D.C. public school system are having each
year, and a percent of those going to college versus the
percent that were there before. That would be an important
thing, just looking at the public school system, for the
committee to know and have in the record. You may not have that
at your fingertips, but we just would want to have it. I think
it will be a statistic that helps this along.
I don't see any legislative problems in moving ahead with
this if we move now. We're in a tough budget year, but every
year is a tough budget year up here. But this is a program that
is successful, and when I see the young men and women here that
have benefited, and people like Brian Ford and the young man
over here from the University of Alabama, Birmingham, we want
to try to bring stability to the program and predictability, so
people know what's going on in the future and continue to get
the word out.
I would just say thank you to all of you for being here.
Brian, what would you have done if you hadn't gone to college?
What would have happened if you hadn't gone to college?
Mr. Ford. I never really thought about that. I always knew
that I wanted to go to college, sir.
Chairman Tom Davis. Good work. That's what I want to hear.
What we're trying to do is change the mentality of kids as they
move up that college is something that they ought to do, that
it's an in thing to do.
Mr. Ford. Oh, yes. My generation has benefited from our
past generation, this is the first generation I believe that
will get the opportunity to go to college because of what our
parents have done for us to get this opportunity. So I see that
my peers are realizing that college is the thing, with
assistance, with financial aid and other grants and
scholarships out there, students realize that they can go to
college now.
Chairman Tom Davis. But a lot of kids at Eastern didn't go
to college, right, that graduated?
Mr. Ford. In my class, I am thinking maybe around 30
percent. I could be wrong.
Chairman Tom Davis. Hopefully that will come up. At my
local high schools, it's 90 percent plus go to college or some
kind of higher education. There's no reason over the next
generation we can't change that in the District. It takes a lot
of work, but you kids are kind of pioneers and pathfinders.
I have to go, I'm going to give the gavel to Ms. Norton.
Thank you all for being here. It's an important program to us
and we want to move it as quickly as we can.
Ms. Norton, over to you.
Ms. Norton [assuming Chair]. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
You know, it says something about the trust between the
Chairman and me that he gives me this gavel, fully expecting
that I will give it back. [Laughter.]
I have appreciated this testimony, and the way you've
educated this committee. We now have, if this is the year of
authorization, does that mean we have a cohort of four people
who have received this benefit for 4 years?
Ms. Valentine. Yes.
Ms. Norton. If so, I need to know how many such people, are
we to the point where we now have the first graduating class?
Ms. Valentine. In May we will have the first graduating
class. We will have one group coming in the fall.
Ms. Norton. How many were there in the first year and how
many are there in the graduating year?
Ms. Valentine. It's about a 30 percent retention rate, so
it's about 620 students of the 1,900 that started that we
anticipated graduating, we're not sure yet. But they're
scheduled to be in their fourth year.
Ms. Norton. So 30 percent of those who started in the first
year are graduating in the fourth year?
Ms. Valentine. Correct.
Ms. Norton. Now, we have to take into account what higher
education is all about today. One of the things I'd like you to
do is compare those figures, you may not have those figures
today, with the number of students who graduated 4 years. In my
generation that was more often done, of course far fewer people
went to college, and many were self-financed, and then of
course schools gave scholarships often for the full amount. You
didn't have the loans and so forth.
So it's a very different kind of world today. In fact,
that's why the growth today is in adult education, 2 year
colleges, people going back to colleges. So I don't want, in my
generation we would have said wow, about 30 percent. But it
will be important to see what that means by comparison.
And I suppose it will be important also to see what it
means for the District in the sense that Members and the public
keep reading about poor scores on these D.C. tests that
children take every year, and yet you have this rising number
going to college. Ms. Valentine, can you reconcile this notion
that somehow all these students are doing so poorly in tests,
but where's the chairman's list of schools? The chairman and I
were looking at this list of schools. I recognize that many of
these students come from homes where somebody has gone to
college.
But goodness sake, when you see the variety of colleges
here, that many of them are HBCUs, many of them are colleges in
the region, you know for sure, even from your own testimony,
that many are from families where they're the first to go to
school. I can't reconcile all this notion about the D.C. public
schools aren't training anybody with the figures--here it is.
It's really something to see, this long list of schools here,
where people are going.
How is it that students who we're told don't do very well
on these standardized tests are able to go in such large
numbers and in such growing numbers to these schools that
you're running out of money now to send them to these schools?
Ms. Valentine. I think the one thing we need to reconcile
is the number of graduates in total with the number of
graduates that are going to school, and we're working on that
number. So I'm not sure that I can answer your question now,
but I'd be happy to get back to you.
Ms. Norton. Say that again?
Ms. Valentine. I'm not sure that we know the complete
number, the accurate number of students that are graduating,
and then the percentage that are actually graduating after 4
years----
Ms. Norton. No, I'm asking quite a different question. My
question, and Ms. Rodriguez also wants to speak to it, my
question is this. You have to qualify to get into a school.
Many students drop out of school for financial--I don't
associate anything with dropping out of school, because the
majority of Americans do not now just finish in 4 years. And
State schools are notorious for people dropping out and coming
back.
But you have to qualify to get in the school. So I'm trying
to reconcile the notion that these students' test scores, which
of course when they keep reading this, discourages them, I want
them to know that some things that you're hearing cannot be
entirely correct if in fact you have this large number of
students going to colleges of every variety. Ms. Rodriguez and
then Mr. Talley wanted to speak to that.
Ms. Valentine. DC CAP has been instrumental in readying the
students in the public schools for college exams and
preparatory exams. I think that's what their role has been as
our partner.
Chairman Tom Davis. Ms. Rodriguez.
Ms. Rodriguez. Thank you, Kelly.
A lot of it is that the students, when students get the
support that they need, the emotional, the academic in terms of
tutorial, remediation, and they get long term support, which
from our organization is priority, they are able to succeed in
almost any environment. We have institutions that are willing
to work with us who allow us to introduce students into the
system where they pay special attention to them and they
provide them with special services as well. And the schools are
committed to diversity. So they will work with us to make sure
that the kids we bring in succeed.
I would just like to add that we also have our first
complement of seniors graduating this year. Of the kids we are
counseling, it was our small pilot class, 80 percent of them
are still in school. And we are very, very excited about this.
We're committed to them for 5 years, but we believe that with
sustained intervention that these students from the District of
Columbia can succeed at colleges.
Before I go to Mr. Talley, does DC CAP help students get
what virtually every middle class kid in America gets, which is
the tutoring that comes with the SATs?
Ms. Rodriguez. We do not provide the tutoring itself. But
what we do is steer the children and motivate them to go to the
services that are already provided within the school system.
Ms. Norton. Are there services that pay, it's almost
impossible to believe that there's a middle class kid in D.C.
who doesn't pay tuition to go to get tutored as to how to pass
the SAT. Are there organizations in D.C. that will pay for any
child who wants to get such tutoring?
Ms. Rodriguez. There are organizations that work with the
school system. I know that the school system 2 years ago
started offering Saturday free classes for students for
preparation for SATs and ACTs. So the students were taking
increasing advantage of that situation. But it is free to the
students. So I know that Princeton Review has worked with the
school system, I know that Kaplan worked with the school
system. It's available within the public school system, free
SAT preparation.
Ms. Norton. And you know, I would like you to submit to
this committee precisely what that assistance is, because if
it's Saturday classes, that's not like what my son and every
kid at his school had.
Ms. Rodriguez. Absolutely.
Ms. Norton. And I have to tell you, there's no way to
level--this is not you, this is not anything that this program
was meant to provide, but I live in the real world, and I know
there's no way to level the playing field with kids going to
college today if you have not had access to one of these
tutoring programs to take the SAT. They teach to the test,
that's exactly what they do, and you've got a leg up over a kid
who hasn't had access to that. I'd be very interested in
working with the program and with CAP on that basis.
Mr. Talley.
Mr. Talley. One of my comments, listening to you earlier,
was when you're looking at the data for testing, which is the
Stanford 9 for D.C. public schools, versus the data from the
SAT, two entirely different sets of scores. One would ask, how
can someone be below basic on the Stanford 9 and come up with
500 or 600 in one subject matter on the SAT? Well, in part, one
is a norm based exam and the other one is a criterion based
exam. So the criterion based exams are more toward the SATs and
the ACTs.
Now, how do we kind of bridge that gap? What many of the
schools are doing, and I was at Woodson for many years, and you
were there on several occasions with us, and so was Chairman
Davis when the bill was signed. One of the things that we put
in the high schools is the SAT math and SAT verbal. At
Washington Math Science, commonly called WMST, all 10th graders
are required to take the math SAT program and the verbal SAT
program.
Ms. Norton. Do you mean take it as part of the curriculum?
Mr. Talley. As a part of the curriculum. Consequently, that
has increased our scores. I'm sure you read last year that we
were in the top 4 percent of all high schools in the country.
There were only four schools in D.C. that made that list.
Ms. Norton. And you sure did, and congratulations. We are
all very proud of this charter school.
Mr. Talley. We were ranked 369 out of over 10,000 high
schools in the country in the Newsweek article last year.
Ms. Norton. And three of our public schools as well.
Mr. Talley. Absolutely. Banneker was there, and School
Without Walls and Wilson. Absolutely.
So my view is that the kids that we work with are the same
kids across the river, the same kids that have these social
issues. However, it's what we do with those kids. As I
mentioned earlier in my testimony, and even when I was at
Woodson for the business and finance program, that we still had
outstanding students. You remember last year India Austin,
she's at Stanford. Now, as a part of my testimony for the
reauthorization, Stanford doesn't qualify for the TAG money.
However, what we try to look for is additional funding. They
gave her $40,000 to come out there. So she's doing quite well.
And I will say, our partnership with the DC CAP, while I
was at Woodson, was an asset to the school. It still is. And
working with them provided additional services. And with the
scores, and I think that one of the things with DC CAP was the
encouragement for those extra programs. And as a result, it
pays off.
Ms. Norton. Thank you very much. Speaking of DC CAP, and
we're talking here about the revenue stream for the TAG
Program, I'm very impressed with what CAP has been able to do.
I do think you are completely indispensable to what we are
doing here in D.C., just to throw some money out there and say,
you all go to college, is not going to work for many of our
students, at least.
I'm wondering if you will experience anything like the kind
of shortfall TAG is experiencing, if you have some basic
revenue stream. And may I correct people, the credit was given
to Katherine Graham for this program. And Katherine Graham was
deeply involved in our public schools. Nobody could have been
more deeply involved. But let me say for the record that Don
Graham is the godfather of the CAP Program, and in a real sense
of this TAG Program as well. It is Don Graham, this notion had
been out there for a long time that what we should do would be
to somehow allow students to have access to State colleges and
I can't say enough about what he's done. I know that he has
helped raise money, along with many other businesses in this
area.
But I have to ask you, have you experienced any problems
because of the poor economy? How will we assure that DC CAP
continues as we are trying to assure that DC TAG continues?
Ms. Rodriguez. It is a challenge, fundraising is a
challenge. But to the credit of the Washington business
community and the philanthropic foundations, they have embraced
this program in a way that I don't think any other program in
the city has been embraced. And a great deal of that is due to
the fact that they knew they were in partnership with Congress.
And that in itself provides potential donors with the
reassurance of the longevity of the program.
We, as I stated in my testimony, we've raised now $35
million. We don't intend to stop. Because in fact, we have an
increasing number of kids going to college. The cost of tuition
is escalating such. But I strongly, strongly believe that the
Washington community, the business community, the philanthropic
community is completely, 100 percent behind this program and
completely, completely committed to the partnership with the
Congress.
So we will continue.
Ms. Norton. And it is the regional business community.
Ms. Rodriguez. Yes, it's regional.
Ms. Norton. Many of these extraordinarily generous
corporations and business leaders live in Virginia and
Maryland. I know I speak for the chairman when I say that if
you need correspondence from us about the importance of CAP to
what we are doing here in the Congress, I hope you will not
hesitate to call on us.
Ms. Rodriguez. We appreciate that. Thank you very much. Mr.
Talley, you wanted to say something?
Mr. Talley. Yes. I was just given a note that we also have
two additional students here and I would ask them to stand.
They're two sisters, one is a junior and I believe the other
one is a senior from Tennessee State University.
Ms. Norton. Stand right on up here so we can see you.
[Applause.]
Ms. Norton. We take pride in you and what it means for this
program.
I'd like to ask Mr. Ford, are you the first in your family
to go to college?
Mr. Ford. I'm one of the first. I have two older sisters
who graduated from North Carolina Central. They didn't live
with my parents. I am one of the first in my household to
graduate from college.
Ms. Norton. You seem to be a before and after student. When
you first went to Delaware State----
Mr. Ford. University of Delaware, I'm sorry.
Ms. Norton. University of Delaware is where you went?
Mr. Ford. Yes.
Ms. Norton. When you first went, the program wasn't in
existence, but while you were there, you were able to take
advantage? Is that what your testimony said?
Mr. Ford. I attended University of Delaware in 1998, the
program didn't come into existence until 2000. So it was my
junior year when I applied for the program.
Ms. Norton. I meet so many people who have said, oh,
goodness, I wish it had been there, I just missed it. Could you
tell me what the difference is between what you paid in tuition
in 1998 and what you paid in the year after?
Mr. Ford. Well, as I stated in my testimony, my parents
contributed the first 2 years almost $3,000.
Ms. Norton. But what was the tuition?
Mr. Ford. What was the tuition?
Ms. Norton. Yes. What was the difference in the tuition
when you had to pay full out of State tuition, if you recall,
and what was the tuition when you had to pay only low in-State
tuition?
Mr. Ford. Tuition I think when I first got there was
probably around, for out of State students it was $15,000 for
the whole year.
Ms. Norton. What's the in State?
Mr. Ford. In State would probably be around $6,000.
Ms. Norton. That gives you an idea of what the difference
is.
Mr. Davis, if he were here, would correct me if I'm wrong,
but I remember looking at the statistics on UVA, one of the
best of the State universities in the country, at the time that
this bill was passed. For out of State students, it was
something like $16,000, for in State it was something like
$4,000. Obviously it's gone up since.
But if that doesn't mean the difference between where you
go and where you don't go, or whether you go, I don't know what
does. It's typical that this reduces tuition sometimes as much
as a quarter or a third. When you have low in-State tuition,
the whole point of States doing this is to get more and more
people into college. It means that most of it is subsidized,
and that's what the Congress does here.
Let me ask you, Ms. Valentine, just to clear up for the
record, there were some stories, a story or two in the press
about what looked like pretty minor amounts of money that
concerned you with some staff in the operation of the program.
You're new to the program, I take it you were brought in to
help deal with whatever operational issues you found. I wonder,
by the way, we know a lot about the program from the GAO, which
kept very close tabs on this program. So we are assured that we
weren't dealing with major problems.
But I wonder, what operational problems you found and what
have you done about them, and what about these minor amounts,
for example, where somebody went to, on Christmas vacation to
their family but also went to see a college that was under your
program at the same time, and it looked as though that wasn't
the main reason for the program. I recognize that's one person
and one travel chip. But I wonder if you found any like
problems or what operational problems you may have found, and
if so, what you've done about them.
Ms. Valentine. To address the operational problem that
you're referring to in terms of the travel, we've done a
complete audit of all the State education office travel with
the Office of Budget for the District. What we've done is
reviewed every single travel, we've identified the cost
associated with every single travel, exactly where it was
funded from. Fortunately, we've only been able to determine,
we've been able to determine, I should say, that the TAG money
that was in question was really not in question. The person
that--we can justify it, and I'd be happy to share the
documentation with you, because we've gone through every
single----
Ms. Norton. So you don't even think that was a problem,
that problem that was in the press is not a problem?
Ms. Valentine. No, what I'm saying is that we have
identified any misuse of funds, and it was very minimal, not to
suggest that's not a problem. It was minimal. A personnel
action was taken as it relates to the person that was
inappropriately traveling. And we have moved to put regulations
and protocols in place. We have adopted the Executive Office of
the Mayor travel guidelines. We've instituted a tier system for
authorization of travel, and to the best of my knowledge,
that's the extent of my engagement with it.
Ms. Norton. Do you have to approve all travel now?
Ms. Valentine. Yes, absolutely. They have to justify it,
and there is a process on the back end where you need to
justify who you saw, what you did, the expenses and receipts
and you have a date certain to return the documentation. So
within 30 days of your travel, it needs to be submitted for
reimbursement, if that's necessary. And the advances will be
predicated on what it is you're doing and how long you're going
to be there.
Clearly, if you're going to add your personal leave to a
business trip, that will be taken into consideration in terms
of what your per diem would be for that activity.
Ms. Norton. Have you discovered any other, well, that one
instance, I won't call an operational difficulty, but have you
discovered any operational improvements that you would like to
make?
Ms. Valentine. I'm looking at the disbursement issue and
the relationship with the financial institutions at the
universities. Because there seems to be a little bit of a
disconnect. So we're going to work on that.
Ms. Norton. Would you describe that in English, please? The
disbursement issue?
Ms. Valentine. The money that's being paid to the
universities, the invoicing for the students. So often the
disbursement office or the bursar's office is not talking to
another office within the organization, so there may be an
invoice for a student, they don't realize that it's been paid,
so there's a little disconnect, so the student appears to not
be in the appropriate status for them to continue their
education. So I'm going to work with DC CAP, because they've
established relationships with some of the institutions that we
seem to be having a problem with.
But I only have been there 12 days and I'm looking at it. I
will be happy to get back to you with anything else.
Ms. Norton. You've only been on the job 12 days?
Ms. Valentine. Yes.
Ms. Norton. Goodness. Do you know of any instances where,
these days, schools treat you like bill collectors. If your
tuition isn't on time, they de-register you, don't allow you to
register, have you had any situations where students have been
threatened because of the difficulty in getting TAG money to
them?
Ms. Valentine. I've heard from some of the staff that's a
problem. That's what we're identifying, the schools that seem
to be most problematic, and we're going to address those right
away.
Ms. Norton. But you don't think that comes from your
payment schedule?
Ms. Valentine. I can't answer that. I'm sure there's
probably some process that can be improved without
organization. I wouldn't suggest that there wouldn't be.
Ms. Norton. Will you pay tuition on time, when you get the
money, does it go straight out?
Ms. Valentine. Yes. There is a 30 day turnover time. Yes,
absolutely. Again, we're going to look at that, because I'm
sure there are things that fall through the cracks. I wouldn't
say there weren't. But I don't know yet, but that is high on my
agenda, absolutely.
Ms. Norton. Mr. Talley.
Mr. Talley. I'd like to make a comment about that, the
procedural issue with the TAG office. Several students over the
years receive the letters from the colleges and universities
that say they haven't received the funding from the DC TAG
office. And I will say that immediately, I always call. They
always come to the counselors or to someone and it always comes
to me at my school, and even at Woodson where I'm no longer
there this year. They still call me for those issues, and the
young man sitting here had an issue.
What we're finding is that there is that linkage between DC
TAG and the college or university. Usually it's the university
or the college. What we have found, or what I have found is
that they have not sent the request or billed the district for
the funding. Sometimes they did not understand the process or
how to do it, but I will say that once, I usually call Ken
Howard, and they usually take care of it right away.
But the issues that I've found usually come from the
university, not from the TAG office.
Ms. Norton. That's very reassuring. Colleges of course, and
universities in the United States, are experiencing something
entirely new, as far as they're concerned. There's no problem
like this. So they've had to orient themselves as to how to
deal with this as well.
Let me ask you about residency. You know what a stickler I
am, don't pay a commuter tax, please don't come over here for
DC TAG. [Laughter.]
So in order to make sure that you are a bona fide resident,
there were some issues. It's always difficult to have to prove
your residency, particularly since people are in various status
in terms of their ability to prove it. But still, it seems to
me rather than have a cent of this money go to anybody but D.C.
residents, especially given the shortfall, I've got to ask you
about residency and how and whether you can assure me that each
and every person in this program is a D.C. resident and how you
can assure me that you assure yourself that is the case.
Ms. Valentine. I've been assured by the staff to this point
that----
Ms. Norton. They'll assure you. But what do they do? What
does a resident go through in order to demonstrate that the
resident is a bona fide D.C. resident?
Ms. Valentine. If they are a D.C. public school graduate--
--
Ms. Norton. Let me just indicate why this is important. The
chairman and I talk about leveling the playing field. This is
the one instance I know, perhaps with the $5,000 homebuyer
credit, that's D.C. only, but this is the one instance I know
where D.C. gets something that nobody else in the United States
gets. If you have a State university or a bunch of State
universities in your State, you get to pick from those. But you
don't get to go to one halfway across the country.
So there is some incentive for people to say, let me see if
I can sneak in under the wire here, particularly since we know
people have tried to do that ad infinitum for our public
schools. We all look closely at Ellington and the charter
schools to make sure these folks are in fact D.C. residents.
Because we don't have enough places here for our own folks.
That's the background of this question about residency.
Ms. Valentine. We verify with D.C. public schools, after
their first year, the D40 tax return is required. To get to
your point, I think there is an opportunity for something to
happen in the first year in terms of them not being residents.
But I understand from the staff that it's very, they are very
few, and as soon as they identify it, in the second year, then
the grant----
Ms. Norton. So what happens in the first year?
Ms. Valentine. There is a provision where the D.C. public
school students are not required to provide that tax
information. The assumption is that if they go to D.C. public
schools----
Mr. Talley. That's not exactly correct.
Ms. Valentine [continuing]. And that D.C. public schools
are audited, but the assumptions that they are in D.C. public
schools, and the audit has proved out that they are a D.C.
resident.
Ms. Norton. I hate to do this. That isn't good enough for
me. I know the D.C. public schools are audited, because we sat
here and went through this when the control board was here. We
wanted to make sure D.C. was not spending money for students
who are out of State.
There are many, many people who work in D.C. who live in
Maryland or Virginia, and they had a habit of bringing their
children here. It happens all the time in big cities, that
people come in. What kind of thing, surely there are things you
can ask people to do, short of the tax form. On this, I'm such
a stickler, I'm about to have a workshop for small businesses.
I have a tax fair, you've got to show your voter card, you've
got to show your driver's license with your address on it.
You've got to bring something to get into any of my stuff here
that's meant to help D.C. residents.
So I would really wonder about what it is that you have to
show in the first year.
Ms. Valentine. I'd be happy to get back to you on that, and
would be happy also to look at requiring D.C. public school
students to provide the same documentation in the first year
that they have to provide in ongoing years. We'll get back to
you on that.
Ms. Norton. I would very much appreciate that.
Mr. Ford.
Mr. Ford. I just want to make a point on that, on
documenting residency. As a financial counselor, I run into a
lot of students, D.C. resident students who are not eligible to
apply for DC TAG because they can't show proof that they are a
resident, regarding their parents' D40. Some students that we
have, they work but they are not required to file taxes because
they did not make enough money. Or we have students whose
parents are not claiming them on their taxes, so they can't
show proof that they are D.C. residents.
Ms. Norton. I don't know if the Federal forms that people,
I mean, the Feds have their own set of eligibility requirements
that it seems to me might be transferable here. The last thing
I'm trying to do is make this more of a bureaucratic process.
But frankly, we have often found that people slide in under,
and really it's costly enough to D.C. public schools. The
notion that you did it to us in D.C. public schools, and you're
going to keep doing it to us is a little bothersome to me.
I wish you all would look closely at that. Mr. Talley.
Mr. Talley. One of the issues that we faced with D.C.
public schools and with the charter school is that last year
charter schools had to show proof of the D40. This year they do
not. However, we do have students that may have parents that
live in Maryland or Virginia, and the issue with that, with me,
in informing the students, is that they're going to have to
still show proof that you're a District resident, meaning if
your parents filed in Maryland or Virginia, you're ineligible.
If your parents live in the District and they file and pay
taxes in the District, then they're eligible.
My view, and trying to explain this to parents so they can
understand is this, that grandparents, if you reside in the
District of Columbia but the bottom line is that if you pay
taxes in Maryland or Virginia, you're basically ineligible for
the TAG.
Ms. Norton. Yes, who in the world would pay taxes if they
didn't have to.
Mr. Talley. But you have some families that try to sneak in
under the umbrella, because they live with their aunts and
uncles, cousins and all that. So we're pretty tight at our
school as far as that's concerned. There are students who don't
qualify for the TAG, and the parents are aware of that.
Ms. Norton. It may seem hard hearted until you recognize
what this city has gone through.
Mr. Talley. Absolutely.
Ms. Norton. And that we don't have any State, and therefore
we have every reason to redouble. I wish you would submit for
the record what is the process for first year students and what
is the process thereafter.
Ms. Valentine. Absolutely.
Ms. Norton. Final question for Mr. Ford. You indicated in
your testimony that you hope that many D.C. residents at
Trinity College, which is one of the colleges that gets a very
significant number of our students, but you said many of these
students who are residents are not currently able to benefit
from this program. I hope that some issues can be addressed in
the reauthorization process to allow all D.C. residents to be
eligible. Would you mind elaborating on that?
Mr. Ford. What I mean by that is that we have students, we
have adult students that attend Trinity and are not eligible to
get the grant, because one, they did not graduate out of high
school after 1998 or they did not attend a college since the
spring of 2001. So we have adult students who are starting this
year who are not eligible for the grant. That's what I meant by
that.
Ms. Norton. This was one of the most heartbreaking fights
I've fought. I've tried to get students, precisely the kind
you're talking about, included, and was able to get some small
changes. But just as graduate students aren't covered, I
literally tried to get and for a while there thought I had
covered students back to 20 years ago. I thought the fact that
somebody wanted to go, remember, it's the same, it would be the
same requirements, but you decided to go back to college when
you were 30 or 35. Yet you'd have to go through all that the
TAG students went through. I thought we ought to reward those
people, and struggled very hard for it.
I was not able to convince, I think the chairman understood
and was with me. I could not get the Senate to do that. But
what they did instead, the quid pro quo that they gave me
instead was the HBCUs. They said, no, we're not going to go
back, they thought there were too many issues about where these
people may have been during these 20 years or 30 years, and too
many issues to follow through.
So instead, I negotiated the HPU part of the bills, which
says that if you go to any HBCU in the country, not just those
in this region, you can get the $2,500. So that's the long and
short of this. So we can't really hold out any hope, having
tried very hard for those students who missed it for good
reason. They just didn't have, just like many of our students
today, they simply didn't have enough revenue, enough funds to
go. We will not be able to recapture those students, I don't
believe, after having gone through that struggle.
Let me just say to the four of you that the testimony that
you've given is very important. Because when the chairman and I
go forward with a bill on the floor, we have to somehow have
enough familiarity with all parts of that bill to answer all
questions. When I carry it over to the Senate, we've got to be
able to do the same thing. And you have been very generous,
very informative, in making us understand the program far
better than we did before.
I very much appreciate the testimony, how detailed it was,
and how your own oral testimony has buttressed it as well, I
think, make it likely that we will be able to go forward with
reauthorization. Thank you very much for coming to this
hearing. I thank our D.C. students for coming. Let me say again
for myself and the chairman that you are living proof of this
bill, and therefore you encourage us more than anything even
that our excellent witnesses have said to go forward and assure
that there is reauthorization.
I want to thank all the staff of our program and of the D.C.
public schools who have helped to make this program work.
Thank you very much and this hearing is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 11:45 a.m., the committee was adjourned, to
reconvene at the call of the Chair.]
[Additional information submitted for the hearing record
follows:]
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