<DOC> [108th Congress House Hearings] [From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access] [DOCID: f:92515.wais] DISRUPTING THE MARKET: STRATEGY, IMPLEMENTATION, AND RESULTS IN NARCOTICS SOURCE COUNTRIES ======================================================================= HEARING before the SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIMINAL JUSTICE, DRUG POLICY AND HUMAN RESOURCES of the COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED EIGHTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION __________ JULY 9, 2003 __________ Serial No. 108-118 __________ Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Reform Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.gpo.gov/congress/house http://www.house.gov/reform ______ 92-515 U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE WASHINGTON : 2003 ____________________________________________________________________________ For Sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512-1800; (202) 512ÿ091800 Fax: (202) 512ÿ092250 Mail: Stop SSOP, Washington, DC 20402ÿ090001 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM TOM DAVIS, Virginia, Chairman DAN BURTON, Indiana HENRY A. WAXMAN, California CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Connecticut TOM LANTOS, California ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida MAJOR R. OWENS, New York JOHN M. McHUGH, New York EDOLPHUS TOWNS, New York JOHN L. MICA, Florida PAUL E. KANJORSKI, Pennsylvania MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York STEVEN C. LaTOURETTE, Ohio ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland DOUG OSE, California DENNIS J. KUCINICH, Ohio RON LEWIS, Kentucky DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois JO ANN DAVIS, Virginia JOHN F. TIERNEY, Massachusetts TODD RUSSELL PLATTS, Pennsylvania WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri CHRIS CANNON, Utah DIANE E. WATSON, California ADAM H. PUTNAM, Florida STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts EDWARD L. SCHROCK, Virginia CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, Maryland JOHN J. DUNCAN, Jr., Tennessee LINDA T. SANCHEZ, California JOHN SULLIVAN, Oklahoma C.A. ``DUTCH'' RUPPERSBERGER, NATHAN DEAL, Georgia Maryland CANDICE S. MILLER, Michigan ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of TIM MURPHY, Pennsylvania Columbia MICHAEL R. TURNER, Ohio JIM COOPER, Tennessee JOHN R. CARTER, Texas CHRIS BELL, Texas WILLIAM J. JANKLOW, South Dakota ------ MARSHA BLACKBURN, Tennessee BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont (Independent) Peter Sirh, Staff Director Melissa Wojciak, Deputy Staff Director Rob Borden, Parliamentarian Teresa Austin, Chief Clerk Philip M. Schiliro, Minority Staff Director Subcommittee on Criminal Justice, Drug Policy and Human Resources MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana, Chairman NATHAN DEAL, Georgia ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland JOHN M. McHUGH, New York DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois JOHN L. MICA, Florida WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri DOUG OSE, California LINDA T. SANCHEZ, California JO ANN DAVIS, Virginia C.A. ``DUTCH'' RUPPERSBERGER, EDWARD L. SCHROCK, Virginia Maryland JOHN R. CARTER, Texas ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of MARSHA BLACKBURN, Tennessee Columbia CHRIS BELL, Texas Ex Officio TOM DAVIS, Virginia HENRY A. WAXMAN, California Christopher Donesa, Staff Director John R. Stanton, Professional Staff Member Nicole Garrett, Clerk Julian A. Haywood, Minority Counsel C O N T E N T S ---------- Page Hearing held on July 9, 2003..................................... 1 Statement of: Simons, Paul, Acting Assistant Secretary for International Narcotics and Law Enforcement Affairs, Department of State; Andre Hollis, Deputy Assistant Secretary for Special Operations and Low Intensity Conflict (Counternarcotics), Department of Defense; Roger Guevara, Director of Operations, Drug Enforcement Administration; and Roger Mackin, Counternarcotics Officer, Department of Homeland Security and U.S. Interdiction Coordinator................. 8 Letters, statements, etc., submitted for the record by: Clay, Hon. Wm. Lacy, a Representative in Congress from the State of Missouri, prepared statement of................... 9 Cummings, Hon. Elijah E., a Representative in Congress from the State of Maryland, prepared statement of............... 83 Guevara, Roger, Director of Operations, Drug Enforcement Administration, prepared statement of...................... 42 Hollis, Andre, Deputy Assistant Secretary for Special Operations and Low Intensity Conflict (Counternarcotics), Department of Defense, prepared statement of............... 31 Mackin, Roger, Counternarcotics Officer, Department of Homeland Security and U.S. Interdiction Coordinator, prepared statement of...................................... 62 Simons, Paul, Acting Assistant Secretary for International Narcotics and Law Enforcement Affairs, Department of State, prepared statement of...................................... 14 Souder, Hon. Mark E., a Representative in Congress from the State of Indiana, prepared statement of.................... 4 DISRUPTING THE MARKET: STRATEGY, IMPLEMENTATION, AND RESULTS IN NARCOTICS SOURCE COUNTRIES ---------- WEDNESDAY, JULY 9, 2003 House of Representatives, Subcommittee on Criminal Justice, Drug Policy and Human Resources, Committee on Government Reform, Washington, DC. The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a.m., in room 2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Mark E. Souder (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding. Present: Representatives Souder, Ose, Davis of Virginia, Cummings, Davis of Illinois, and Ruppersberger. Staff present: Christopher A. Donesa, staff director and chief counsel; John Stanton, congressional fellow; Nicole Garrett, clerk; Tony Haywood, minority counsel; and Cecelia Morton, minority office manager. Mr. Souder. The subcommittee will come to order. Good morning. Because of our focus in the subcommittee this year on the reauthorization of the Office of National Drug Control Policy and the President's treatment initiative, this is the first hearing of the 108th Congress on drug supply interdiction matters. There are certainly no lack of important issues for discussion, however; and I expect today's hearing to cover a wide range of pressing questions. As I often point out, around 20,000 Americans die each year of drug-related causes, more than any single terrorist act to date, more than, actually, all combined terrorist acts to date. It is important that we maintain vigorous efforts to control the sources of supply for narcotics and to interdict them from the United States. While we have recently begun to see real and tangible successes in some of our source country programs--most notably Plan Colombia--the Federal Government continues to face significant challenges with respect to interdiction programs caused by resource constraints and, in some cases, policy and political issues. Our witnesses today have some of the most significant responsibilities for operational matters relating to narcotics supply reduction and interdiction, and I appreciate very much the opportunity to have them all on the same panel to survey the status of these critical programs. First, we will review the status of implementation and recent successes of Plan Colombia. Chairman Tom Davis of the full committee and I returned from a visit to Colombia on Monday, which was the third committee delegation this year. It is clear that we are beginning to see real and tangible successes, and both of us very much appreciate the continued strong support of President Uribe and Vice President Santos, with whom we have had the opportunity to spend a significant amount of time. We also obtained a renewed sense of the many steep, steep challenges Colombia and our source country programs continue to have. We met with soldiers who had lost limbs and eyes to the increasing terrorist attacks of the FARC. Earlier this year, we attended a funeral. We met with widows who were grateful for the opportunity to learn skills toward an even modest living by baking or sewing supported by the Agency for International Development. Other serious issues must be considered relating to Plan Colombia. Three Americans continue to be held hostage by the FARC. The Attorney General of the United States has indicted members of both the FARC and the AUC for using drug proceeds to support their terrorism. Colombian heroin is becoming increasingly prevalent on the East Coast of the United States; and as our programs start to succeed in Colombia we face increased attacks on spray planes and the potential for spillover of the drug traffic, violence and terrorism to other nations in the Andean region. We must also consider the failure of European nations to step up and provide assistance sorely needed to build communities and institutions at this crucial time that those countries pledged to provide at the very beginning as we put this plan together and as Colombia put this plan together and yet they have not contributed. The second significant problem is the question of allocation of natural resources--excuse me. The second significant problem is the question of allocation of national resources to drug interdiction missions. Many of our most significant interdiction assets were moved into the Department of Homeland Security. Committee staff received briefings last week at the Joint Interagency Task Force South in Key West and the U.S. Southern Command that suggest that the redirection of natural resources from drugs--I am supposed to be at a natural resources markup right now and I am missing that, so natural resources is in my head--that suggest that the redirection of national resources from drug control missions to Homeland Security missions has begun to have a dire negative impact on drug interdiction. Some detection and interception programs have available only a minuscule proportion of the amount of resources that government experts have deemed necessary for an adequate interdiction program. Based on information made available to the committee, I believe, as an example, that more than 300 metric tons of cocaine that previously would have been detected and intercepted may have been allowed onto American streets last year because our resources have been diverted to other purposes. This is wholly unacceptable and must be addressed vigorously and quickly by the department of Homeland Security and the Department of Defense. For example, there is no point in putting our soldiers and contractors, DEA agents, the Colombian National Police in danger on the ground if we're going to miss them when they come out; and we're very disturbed at what we're hearing. Today we will try to determine more precisely what has been the extent of the disruption, what steps can be taken to ensure the adequacy of interdiction resources and whether resources will ever return to previous levels. We will also want to examine closely related matters, including lengthy delays in the resumption of the Airbridge Denial Program in Colombia and Peru and the organizational issues at the Department of Homeland Security, especially the development of the Counternarcotics Officer position, originally created in this committee. Finally, we will also consider the response to rapidly emerging new threats such as the resumption of large-scale heroin production in Afghanistan and what efforts are under way for its control; traffic in precursor chemicals from Mexico, Canada, China and other nations; and the continued flood of Ecstasy to the United States. Clearly, our plate this morning is very full; and I welcome our witnesses. From the Department of State, we have Acting Assistant Secretary of State for International Narcotics and Law Enforcement Affairs, Paul Simons; from the Department of Defense, we have Deputy Assistant Secretary for Counternarcotics, Andre Hollis, who is making his first appearance here as one of the many distinguished former committee staff working in this area; from the Drug Enforcement Administration, we welcome Chief of Operations Roger Guevara; and from the Department of Homeland Security, we welcome the Counternarcotics Officer Roger Mackin, who concurrently serves as the U.S. Interdiction Coordinator and is making his first appearance here as well. I also note for the record that Dr. Barry Crane, Deputy Director of the Office of National Drug Control Policy, was invited to testify today but was unavailable. We look forward to receiving his testimony separately in the future. Welcome, all of you; and I look forward to the discussion. [The prepared statement of Hon. Mark E. Souder follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.001 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.002 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.003 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.004 Mr. Souder. Mr. Cummings is on his way over, and we will have him do his opening statement after he arrives. And we are joined by Mrs. Davis. I believe you don't have an opening statement, is that correct? We'll proceed then and go straight to our witnesses. We'll start with Mr. Simons. STATEMENTS OF PAUL SIMONS, ACTING ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR INTERNATIONAL NARCOTICS AND LAW ENFORCEMENT AFFAIRS, DEPARTMENT OF STATE; ANDRE HOLLIS, DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR SPECIAL OPERATIONS AND LOW INTENSITY CONFLICT (COUNTERNARCOTICS), DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE; ROGER GUEVARA, DIRECTOR OF OPERATIONS, DRUG ENFORCEMENT ADMINISTRATION; AND ROGER MACKIN, COUNTERNARCOTICS OFFICER, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY AND U.S. INTERDICTION COORDINATOR Mr. Simons. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, we appreciate this opportunity to meet with you today to discuss how the State Department and specifically the Bureau for International Narcotics and Law Enforcement Affairs is contributing to U.S. Government efforts to disrupt the markets in key narcotic source countries. We particularly appreciate your personal interest, support and dedication to the fight against drugs to the work that--collaborative work that we have undertaken with your staff and with other members of the committee. If I could ask, Mr. Chairman, that my full statement be entered into the record; and I will provide a brief oral statement with your permission. Mr. Souder. Without objection, it is so ordered. Actually--if I may interrupt, and we will restart your clock--I forgot to do that at the beginning here. I ask unanimous consent that all Members have 5 legislative days to submit written statements and questions for the hearing record and that any answers to written questions provided by the witnesses also be included in the record. Without objection, it is so ordered. I also ask unanimous consent that all exhibits, documents and other materials referred to by Members and the witnesses may be included in the record and that all Members be permitted to revise and extend their remarks. Without objection, it's so ordered. [The prepared statement of Hon. Wm. Lacy Clay follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.005 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.006 Mr. Souder. I also forgot to do the oath because I was distracted by my comment on Mr. Cummings, so if each of you would stand and raise your right hands. [Witnesses sworn.] Mr. Souder. Let the record show that the witnesses have answered in the affirmative. It will also show that the only part that was significant was congratulating me and the committee, and you weren't under oath on that part. So if you can proceed. Sorry for the interruption. Mr. Simons. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The INL Bureau directly supports the President's national drug control strategy and its orchestration of U.S. Government efforts to reduce the availability of illicit drugs in our country. Specifically, we actively support supply reduction programs through direct assistance as well as multilateral and diplomatic efforts conducted in cooperation with other departments and agencies of our government. Very prominent among our programs are those that support the national strategy of reducing the production and trafficking of drugs in the principal source countries, which are, of course, the subject of this hearing. I will touch briefly on our activities in the major source countries; and then my longer statement, of course, will be entered into the record. First let's turn to Colombia. As you mentioned, Mr. Chairman, it is an extremely high priority for the U.S. Government, for the State Department, and for my Bureau. Market disruption in Colombia actually involves a combination of eradication activities, interdiction, institution building and alternative development programs. Last year, Mr. Chairman, as you mentioned, 2002 was a banner year for counternarcotics efforts in Colombia, which remains the source of more than 90 percent of the cocaine and most of the heroin entering the United States. For the first time since drug cultivation began increasing in the mid-1990's, overall coca cultivation declined, by our estimates, by more than 15 percent. Opium poppy cultivation also declined by an estimated 25 percent for 2001 levels. These declines are directly the result of a robust U.S.- assisted aerial eradication program, which sprayed over 122,00 hectares of coca in 2002, representing a 45 percent increase over 2001. In addition, the spray program destroyed more than 3,000 hectares of opium poppy, again a 67 percent increase over the prior year. And during the first 6 months of that year, we sprayed 73,000 hectares of coca and 1,600 hectares of opium poppy; and we continue to maintain this pace. We fully intend to spray all the coca and opium poppy in Colombia by the end of this year. That said, Colombia faces a number of significant challenges to consolidating its progress in counternarcotics. As eradication efforts squeeze the industry, we have experienced more ground fire, as you mentioned, Mr. Chairman, from narco-terrorist groups. Our aircraft have taken more than 220 rounds of ground fire during this year to date. That figure is also in excess of the levels sustained in 2001 and 2002. Some Colombian extremist groups have become increasingly dependent on drug-related revenues. We believe they're starting to feel the squeeze financially; and, as a result, we expect these groups will increasingly use their firepower and ingenuity to go after our eradication efforts. We are taking a close look at our security programs in Colombia. We are making adjustments. But this is a challenge that we need to work on together with the Congress to make sure that we have sufficient security and assets to keep this eradication program going. President Uribe's firm stance on drug trafficking and narcoterrorists has ushered in a new political climate in Colombia and an increase in counternarcotics and counterterrorism operations around the country. He has significantly boosted security spending by more than $1 billion annually, and he has been fully supportive of our eradication efforts, and he has been very successful in turning around public opinion in Colombia on the merits of the eradication program, a very significant achievement. We are also engaged in a number of projects in the institution building and democracy areas and the alternative development area which are further outlined in my written statement. Our fiscal year 2004 request includes $463 million for Colombia. We believe it's extremely important to secure full funding for this effort. This is a very critical year in terms of our efforts in Colombia. We need to consolidate the progress we have made both in terms of eradication as well as interdiction as well as support for Colombian military lift which is very important to provide security for our spray operations on the ground. So we ask for whatever support you can provide through this committee for full funding of our fiscal year 2004 request. Turning to Bolivia and Peru briefly, to prevent traffickers from further developing alternative drug production sources elsewhere, we are actively reinforcing our counternarcotics programs in these two countries. Our efforts to support stronger government counternarcotics actions have been slowed, unfortunately, by radical cocalero movements that have seized upon the historic tradition of coca cultivation as a rallying cry for indigenous rights against the dominant urban political culture. We've also found that economic difficulties in both countries have weakened government resources to enhance counternarcotics efforts. That said, we are working very hard to further strengthen political will in both Bolivia and Peru. We have a robust budget both for eradication as well as interdiction and alternative development programs in those countries; and, again, our budget request for fiscal 2004, which includes $116 million for Peru and $91 million for Bolivia, will be very important to be sustained to ensure again that cultivation does not spill over into these countries. In Mexico, we're working very closely with the Fox administration to support their ambitious 6-year national drug control plan. That's really the first effort to call on Mexican society and institutions more broadly to wage a frontal assault against all aspects of the drug program, including production, trafficking and consumption. Since September 11, the United States and Mexico have also significantly stepped up cooperation on border security to ensure a tighter screening of people and goods. We've put resources toward this program in our fiscal year 2002 supplemental, and of course we get corollary benefits in terms of the drug fight for this program. In fiscal 2004 we have requested $37 million for Mexico. About half of that is focused on border security. The remainder is to support counter-drug, counter-crime operations, criminal justice reform, and law enforcement; and we ask your strong support for those programs as well. Mr. Chairman, in your opening statement you mentioned Afghanistan. Afghanistan is a country that we also have an intense focus on. There's been some disappointment with respect to Afghanistan's performance on opium poppy cultivation within the last year. Despite a strong political commitment by the Karzai government, Afghanistan has resumed its position as the world's largest producer of heroin in 2002; and we're likely to see another fairly substantial year for opium poppy cultivation. This year we're taking a number of steps, working with the British and our European colleagues, to bolster the ability of the Afghan Government to deal with its counternarcotics problems; and we are working on institution building, we're working on law enforcement, we're working on alternative development. We see a substantial level of commitment by the UK, by the U.N. and by the Europeans. The Secretary of State went to Europe in May to push for additional European involvement. Most of the Afghan opium does make its way to Europe, but it remains a key concern for the United States as well, and in this regard, we request your support for our fiscal 2004 budget request of $40 million which will be largely focused on strengthening Afghan law enforcement and counternarcotics law enforcement. Mr. Chairman, I have--I address in my written statement a number of the other source countries, but I think I will leave it there and be happy to take any of your questions. Mr. Souder. Thank you very much. We'll draw out some of the additional countries in the questioning. [The prepared statement of Mr. Simons follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.007 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.008 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.009 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.010 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.011 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.012 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.013 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.014 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.015 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.016 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.017 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.018 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.019 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.020 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.021 Mr. Souder. Mr. Hollis. Mr. Hollis. Thank you, Chairman Souder; and thank you again for convening this very important hearing. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Ruppersberger, Mrs. Davis, it is my pleasure to appear before you today to discuss the Department of Defense's programs and policies that assist nations around the world in their battle against drug trafficking and narco- terrorism. In particular, I am honored to speak before the committee where I spent 2 wonderful years as your senior counsel. I value the work that you do, and I congratulate you for your continuing leadership. I have a longer statement to be placed in the record, but I would like to briefly touch upon the Department of Defense's counternarcotics efforts both at home and abroad. Each year, my office expends a great deal of time, effort and resources to assist lead law enforcement agencies in drug interdiction. This is a complex process that requires coordination and funding from all levels of government agencies, local and State law enforcement and the foreign countries in which we assist in the eradication of crops and disruption of their transportation to the United States. A large portion of the profits from drug sales, indirectly or directly, support terrorist organizations as well, another reason that we are working hard to reduce the supply of drugs. We are increasingly aware of these linkages between terrorist organizations, narcotics traffickers, weapons smugglers, kidnapping rings and other transnational networks. Terrorist groups such as the FARC in Colombia, al Qaeda and groups around the world finance key operations with drug money. The Department of Defense, with our counterparts in the Department of State, other government agencies seeks to systematically dismantle drug trafficking networks, both to halt the flow of drugs into the United States and to bolster the broader war on terrorism. In the international arena, much of our counternarcotics support includes deployments, programs that train and furnish intelligence and operational support for drug detection, monitoring and provide equipment to partner counterdrug forces. These countertrafficking methods are directly aimed at disrupting the terrorist drug trade and finance networks that threaten partner nations. We're particularly proud to support our State and interagency counterparts in the resumption of the Airbridge Denial Program in Colombia. Domestically, the Department is working with law enforcement, the National Guard, U.S. Northern Command and the new Department of Homeland Security to coordinate counternarcotics efforts. The National Guard is an exceptional partner to law enforcement in domestic counternarcotics missions that require military unique skills, particularly when it comes to protecting our borders from the influx of drugs. Our objective is to increase the overall effectiveness of the U.S. Government in countering the flow of drugs into the United States. To do this, the Department is transitioning the National Guard out of missions that are not military unique-- such as cargo mail inspection, maintenance and logistics and marijuana whack and stack--to those that are more military unique--aerial and ground reconnaissance, intel analysis and training for law enforcement agencies. In response to this need, the Department is enhancing National Guard support to law enforcement particularly along the Southwest border and at linguist centers in California and in Washington. Chairman Souder, I would like to thank you, Mr. Ruppersberger, Mrs. Davis, once again for the tremendous support and leadership that you have provided. I look forward to answering your questions on all of these issues. Thank you. Mr. Souder. Thank you very much. [The prepared statement of Mr. Hollis follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.022 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.023 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.024 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.025 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.026 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.027 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.028 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.029 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.030 Mr. Ose. Mr. Guevara. Mr. Guevara. Good morning, Mr. Chairman. I am pleased to once again testify on behalf of the Drug Enforcement Administration on the topic of source countries. Chairman Souder, Representative Ruppersberger and Ms. Davis, just yesterday we witnessed Attorney General Ashcroft and Mexican Attorney General Rafael Macedo de la Concha announce the indictment of the 12 individuals who represent the top hierarchy of the Arellano-Felix organization in San Diego. This drug cartel has been responsible for importing and distributing hundreds of tons of cocaine and marijuana into our borders and carrying out murders both in Mexico and in the United States. It was not an accident that the two shared the stage. It was as much a reflection of the resolve of the United States as it was a tribute to the extraordinary progress our friends in Mexico have made in pursuing major drug trafficking organizations. The vast majority of our countries drug control program is based at home. It is dedicated to domestic law enforcement, border interdiction and treatment and prevention programs within the United States. However, about 9 percent of the Federal drug control budget is dedicated to international efforts. That investment in source countries is critical. Transnational drug trafficking organizations headquartered outside our borders seek to prey upon vulnerable American citizens by supplying vast amounts of dangerous drugs. For example, over 80 percent of the cocaine hydrochloride, which is the finished product, entering the United States originates in or passes through Colombia. Source country efforts are essential because traffickers are not restricted by boundaries. The very nature of the drug trade is transnational. It respects no borders, recognizes no jurisdictions and favors no nationalities. Rather than focus on stemming the flow after these drugs have crossed into the United States, the DEA takes a transnational approach and focuses on drug control efforts at the point of origin, the source country. The DEA employs a broad, three-tiered approach to operations in source countries. First, we work with our international counterparts to disrupt and ultimately dismantle the organizational heart of drug-trafficking organizations. We witnessed in March of this year the arrest of Osiel Cardenas-Guillen, whose cartel controls the smuggling corridor near Brownsville, TX. He had been our No. 1 priority target for all of Mexico and Central America. DEA's Monterrey resident office and our sensitive investigative units focused on Cardenas' capture, with assistance of the Mexican Government. Second, we build international cooperation and an enhanced law enforcement institutions in our partner countries. The DEA is the premiere drug law enforcement agency in the world and is committed to sharing that expertise with our counterparts. The heart of DEA's international operations lies within the sensitive investigations--excuse me--the sensitive investigative units we have established in nine different countries around the world. These trained and vetted police officers target the command and control centers of the world's most significant drug-trafficking organizations. Third, we provide the critical international assistance needed to break the drug trade as a financial source for terrorists. Just last November, a joint DEA and FBI OCDETF investigation known as Operation White Terror resulted in the indictment and arrest of individuals offering to exchange drugs for weapons on behalf of the Autodefensas Unidas de Colombia [AUC], which is recognized as a foreign terrorist organization. In conclusion, successful endeavors such as Operation Seis Fronteras, the SIU program, the arrest of Osiel Cardenas in Mexico, Operation Rebound in Colombia and yesterday's indictment of the Arellano-Felix organization's top hierarchy exemplify the encouraging prospects of DEA's source country initiative. More important, perhaps, are the lasting effects that these efforts will have on nurturing of strong, professional law enforcement institutions throughout the world. Finally, I would like to point out the chart that is to the committee's left that identifies and illustrates the source country threats and transit zones that I have referred to in my testimony. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll be happy to respond to any questions the committee may have. Mr. Souder. Thank you. [The prepared statement of Mr. Guevara follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.031 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.032 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.033 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.034 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.035 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.036 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.037 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.038 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.039 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.040 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.041 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.042 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.043 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.044 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.045 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.046 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.047 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.048 Mr. Souder. Mr. Mackin. Mr. Mackin. Chairman Souder and distinguished members of the subcommittee, it is a distinct pleasure and privilege to appear before you today in what is my first opportunity to testify before the Congress as the Counternarcotics Officer of the Department of Homeland Security and the U.S. Interdiction Coordinator. Mr. Chairman, I know you played an integral role in successfully offering language contained within the Homeland Security Act of 2002 to provide for a senior official within the new Department to coordinate counternarcotics matters with respect to interdicting the entry of illegal drugs in the United States and tracking and severing connections between illegal drug trafficking and terrorism. I am grateful for your efforts and leadership in assisting this critical mission. I want to thank you for your unwavering support to the Department, our mission and our personnel. As I have been in these positions for just 3\1/2\ months, this is my first opportunity to apprise you of my progress in fulfilling these roles. I've submitted written testimony to you on my activities. That testimony provides examples showing that the DHS is performing well in its mission to help interdict the flow of illicit narcotics in the United States. But I want to take this speaking opportunity to highlight the valuable synergism of the roles of the DHS Counternarcotics Officer and the U.S. Interdiction Coordinator. Having now worked hard at both roles and seeing the benefits of having a single person fulfill them, I'm here to confirm that the merger is a productive idea. In both roles the desired outcome is helping DHS and the other members of our Nation's counterdrug community to improve our ability to disrupt and eventually stop the smuggling of tons of illicit drugs into our country. Success in these roles boils down to two key ingredients. First and foremost, the incumbent must become truly expert on the current methods of operation used by the drug trafficking industry to manufacture, transport and smuggle drugs into the United States; and you need equal knowledge on how they distribute the drugs to primary markets within the United States and then to return the proceeds from the sale of those drugs to their international corporate headquarters. The second key ingredient to success in these roles is to create solid working relationships with the leadership and senior managers within the DHS and the whole counterdrug community. You have to be able to speak frankly with them about the strengths and shortfalls of our daily endeavors. The level of the DHS Counternarcotics Officer position and that of the U.S. Interdiction Coordinator affords the direct access to those officers. I'm pleased to say that I'm well on the way to mastering both key requirements. Regarding gaining current knowledge of our drug adversaries, I have canvassed all of the agencies in the law enforcement and intelligence communities for the later information. Because of my earlier years of work in counterdrug intelligence operations, I am able to test the communities' intelligence information for completeness and credibility; and where I have found the information and analysis incomplete, by virtue of the stature of my combined roles I can challenge these agencies to go further in their collection and analysis efforts. We have gaps to fill, and I'm getting the counterdrug community to work on them. Regarding the other key ingredient, that is establishing productive personal contact with the field commanders and the senior agency managers in the counterdrug community, it too is working well. I have the direct access I need, and I'm having productive discussions on priorities and resource allocation. So I've made good progress in a foundation to work in the future, and from the experience gained thus far I want to emphasize that having a single person unencumbered by other responsibilities and solely dedicated to looking independently at where we are and where we need to get to regarding stemming the flow of illicit drugs offers the unique opportunity to help DHS and the whole counterdrug community conceive and develop new and better approaches to drug interdiction. Mr. Chairman, I again compliment you for conceiving of this approach and thank you for the privilege to be chosen to serve as the Department of Homeland Security's Counternarcotics Officer and the U.S. Interdiction Coordinator. Like you and all the distinguished members of this subcommittee, I recognize both the direct and the indirect threats that illicit drug trafficking poses to our country and our people. The Department Homeland Security is populated by both leaders and operators that share that understanding and a commitment to utilize the skills, resources and super personnel of the Department to continue to do all within our power to disrupt to deter and destroy the organizations that try to bring this scourge to our homes and our homeland. I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today. I thank you for your continued support and would be happy to answer any questions you have. Mr. Souder. Thank you. [The prepared statement of Mr. Mackin follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.049 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.050 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.051 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.052 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.053 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.054 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.055 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.056 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.057 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.058 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.059 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.060 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.061 Mr. Souder. Let me start out with some--going backward order, starting out with Mr. Mackin. If you look at this as an effort, using the chart over there, of--to the degree that we can or we fail to get it eradicated, we try to get it before it leaves say Colombia or Mexico, and then once it leaves into the transit zone we try to get it before it gets to the border of the United States. If we can't get it at the border, it gets to be an expanding funnel, and it's harder and harder for the State police, the local police and that the key part that the Department of Homeland Security plays is in the transit zone, or what would be the red marks on that chart, and at the actual border? Mr. Mackin. I would agree that's a very key role of the DHS. But one thing I would point out, as you have said it's like a funnel, and the broader it gets the more difficult it gets to capture it. I think focusing on revenue denial, which the DHS has the resources to do as well, is probably the most important thing we can do to thwart the efforts of the traffickers. If they don't get their money back, they don't stay in business. Mr. Souder. I agree that revenue denial is a major part. What part of the Department of Homeland Security, would you--in other words, you have Customs; and it would be through the Customs--through the old Customs division in the--not the border division but the investigations division? Mr. Mackin. You've got your criminal investigators who are also the financial investigators. On your border you've got your inspectors. And I agree that, as far as the open seas and the distance between Colombia and the United States, the Coast Guard plays a very, very important role, as do the aircraft of the Bureau of Immigrations and Customs Enforcement. Mr. Souder. I have really two lines of questions that I am--we've submitted to Secretary Hutchinson when he testified in front of the Homeland Security Committee and I'm pursuing a little here because we're not particularly enamored at some of the answers we're getting. First, let me deal with the red lines and the--well, that's a different chart there, but basically the transit zones. Do we have any Coast Guard capability currently in the Pacific side specifically? Do we have an oil tanker to refuel them? Or are all the boats basically diverted to other--the tankers diverted to other parts of the world and our boats are predominantly up on the California border and not down on the Pacific? Mr. Mackin. To my knowledge, there is no oiler operating in the Eastern Pacific that can service the vessels that are doing interdiction roles in the EPAC area. Mr. Souder. And doesn't that limit our ability to cover where 67 percent of the narcotics---- Mr. Mackin. Yes, sir. Mr. Souder. And have you made a recommendation to the Department of Homeland Security that either the Department of Homeland Security needs to request maybe through a new vessel if we need the others elsewhere, either through Coast Guard, or I'm going to ask the same question of the Department of Defense, whether it should be in their budget. Because since 67 percent moves through the Eastern Pacific roughly, based on past estimates, and 33 percent through the Caribbean, that to be relatively defenseless till they get to the Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, and California border is really not a very good option. Mr. Mackin. I made the recommendation, sir, to the Interdiction Committee when we met on May 21st that this be looked at, that by whatever means we try to get an oiler there, even if it means leasing one. Because Admiral Sirois, the commander of the JIATF South, mentioned that that was one possibility. So I have raised that issue. We're having another meeting this Friday. I hope to hear a response. Mr. Souder. Because this is essential. Because we're very concerned, among other things, about the Eastern Pacific side, which is much more geographically difficult to handle. We also met with a Mr. Bonner on another matter-- Congressman Shadegg and I through Homeland Security--and in that raised some concerns, because he had previously been over both sides of Customs and whenever you have a reorganization there are all kinds of challenges. But one thing that I hope you have been raising internally and will continue to watch is, as you separate the border division from the investigations division, we will have a demoralizing impact and possibly even an administrative incentive to discourage aggressive border control if the investigations units don't have the capacity to followup or get diverted to other types of investigations. Specifically, Homeland Security terrorism threats are probably greater on the north border right now than the south border. At the same time, and if such a terrorism threat develops, it is conceivable that the investigations division could be substantially diverted to that terrorism threat, meaning that all the cocaine/heroin arrests that previously would have been followed through in the narcotics division could get diverted and we could have all sorts of cases lost or even a discouraging from picking up those cases so that the numbers don't look bad. I wonder whether you've raised that concern, what the responses are to that concern and how in the future we're going to track that, because this is a potentially huge problem in the narcotics area. Mr. Mackin. Sir, I'm conscious of the problem. I have not specifically raised it. I have talked directly with Secretary Ridge, with Deputy Secretary England and with Under Secretary Asa Hutchinson and I can say this, that there is a uniform commitment to the counterdrug programs, to sustaining them and improving them where possible. I know that Under Secretary Hutchinson has a working group under way to look at all of the resources within the BTS directorate as to how they can be best focused on the counterdrug problem and that he has given personal instructions to a key person in that activity to make very sure that counterdrug is properly addressed. Mr. Souder. Thank you. Mr. Ruppersberger, I believe you were next. Mr. Ruppersberger. Well, there are a lot of issues here today; and I really praise all of you for being involved in this line of work. It's extremely necessary. I'm going to talk about the macro issue first and if I have time maybe some individual issues. The macro issue I'm very much concerned with is that the resources that are being taken away from drug interdiction, from all the things that you do every day and that are going into fighting and dealing with the issue of terrorism, if you look at the threats, I think that you probably--85 to 90 percent of all violent crime is drug related. We have tremendous problems, and the fact that resources are being taken from one area to another--I mean, terrorism is something we have to deal with, no question about that. But we also need to give--keep the resources where they are. I was reading in my notes that at the Joint Interagency Task Force in Key West, FL, also with the U.S. Southern Command, some of our committee members went to that meeting or seminar, whatever it was, and that there was an example that over 300 metric tons of cocaine that previously would have been detected and intercepted may have been allowed onto American streets last year because our resources have been diverted to other purposes. I would like you really to address the issue, each one. If we have time, I'll get into some other areas: the issue of taking resources out of our drug interdiction and moving that, those resources into the area of terrorism. And it starts with FBI, CIA. I mean, in every group this is happening. How do you see that happening? And if it is, what do you suggest that we need to do other than funding which we know we continue in resources? And, by the way, I used to be involved in, as a State prosecutor, in dealing with a lot of drugs. I think we worked together once, Mr. Guevara, on a wiretap or whatever. And the conspiracies and the international and all the issues that you have to deal with--but a good narc makes a difference, too. OK. Mr. Hollis. Congressman, if I might jump on that question first. As the Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Counternarcotics, I'm responsible for providing the policy guidance and the resources for JIATF South and for SOUTHCOM'S counterdrug efforts. I can tell you with no reservation that after September 11 the number of U.S. Navy ships and planes in the Caribbean and the Eastern Pacific did not appreciably change, and the reason for that is we have a specific order that provides the numbers of ships, the amount of time per year that they're in the region providing counterdrug support. That didn't change from a DOD perspective. In fact, what we have done to enhance our counterdrug capabilities as executed by JIATF South is we've said, to the extent that you're able to detect, monitor and interdict ships, planes and people carrying drugs, look for anything that may be on those ships, planes or those individuals, not just drugs but other threats to the homeland. Similarly, we're talking with our National Guard counterparts in the southern States, particularly in Florida, Louisiana, Mississippi, Texas; and to the extent that National Guard planes and intel analysts and reconnaissance capabilities can support JIATF South by performing littoral reconnaissance missions, then we want to use those skill sets. So that if the U.S. Navy ships and the Coast Guard ships in the deep water cannot, say, stop a Go Fast boat, then the JIATF South can provide that information to the National Guard, which, working with State and local law enforcement, can interdict them before they reach our coastlines. So we're looking to enhance the capabilities that we have. We have not decreased our resources provided to SOUTHCOM and JIATF South. In fact, I think at our border, or our resources for 2004, there's a slight increase. So the resources that the Department of Defense is putting into supporting law enforcement efforts to interdict drugs has not changed. What we said is, as you develop these skill sets in detecting, monitoring, interdicting drugs coming into the United States, simply keep your eyes open for other things as well. Mr. Ruppersberger. I see my time is almost up. And that might be OK in that one specific area, but I think the facts will show that in every area, from the street to the Coast Guard to Defense to DEA, Homeland Security, there's a lot that is going on in this country. And right now, because of the recession, we're looking to areas to really cut budgets; and this is an area that really concerns me. It's an issue. I know that's why the chairman's having these hearings, and I appreciate that. That we have to get on top of this and make sure that terrorism is, right now, it's on TV every day. Drug interdiction is not any more. And yet right now, if you look at the victims, the victims are there. I can't ask any more questions. But you can answer them. I'm very much concerned, if any other area has an issue or an example of how the resources are being taken from one area into another, please throw it out here, because that's what the purpose of this hearing is for. Mr. Mackin. Mr. Ruppersberger, if I may answer for DHS. I'd like to point out that Admiral Collins, the Commandant of the Coast Guard, is keenly, keenly aware of this problem. And that when an orange alert occurs or particularly a Liberty Shield he is obliged to pull certain cutters that may be in fisheries duty or counterdrug duty back for port security. But after having experienced that earlier this year, he is taking very, very concerted measures to determine how can you provide the port security without pulling as many of the cutter resources off line; and I have talked to him extensively on this. During a nonalert period, the Coast Guard has maintained what they call a steady state. The amount of resources applied in earlier years, prior to this terrorist concern, he is sustaining at that level; and the number of seizures achieved by Coast Guard resources remain at a constant level over the last several years. There's no question that more resources could be used down there. There is more intelligence than there is the ability to exploit. But the Coast Guard, I want to assure you, is doing its utmost to get down to what's needed or what they have to put down there. Mr. Ruppersberger. May I respond to that, Mr. Chairman? The Coast Guard is the perfect example--and that sounds-- you know, I'm glad to hear that they're doing whatever they need to do and they're working very well dealing with intelligence. The Coast Guard is an example, though, of an agency that is spread so thin and the responsibilities they have and the vulnerability of our ports--there's a lot that needs to be done in that arena, and it concerns all of us because we're talking about the national security. And, you know, I know you're trying; and it's not your fault. It's resources that need to be put in and the priorities have to be established at the top and the resources have to go back into what you're all doing. Mr. Souder. We have at this point an Assistant Secretary who was head of the DEA, a Vice Coordinator who has been head of DEA and Customs and Mr. Bonner. That may not always be the case. Your slot has to be the aggressive, constant pain in the neck in the system saying that narcotics has to be focused on. And one of the things that needs to be looked at, like has been discussed in general in Homeland Security, is when we go to an orange alert, if there's any kind of specificity to it, that every boat everywhere in our country doesn't have to run back to their home port, that there has to be some kind of logic to this. Because when you said orange alert I'm thinking, man, it seems like we're in orange alert a high percentage of the time. Furthermore, it takes a while for these boats to get out in the region and if every time--if you took the number of orange alerts--and I confess as a member of Homeland Security and this committee that I have--it's tough for me to follow all the colors, but it seems to me that if you are--if you count all the steaming out and steaming back time, combined with the amount of time that's orange alert, it's no wonder our coverage is down; and we have to substantively address that question. For Members, I'm going to go for the rest of this panel with 5 minutes. We'll have another round. I think we'll go with 10 minutes in the second round so we can develop it a little further for those who stay. Congresswoman Davis. Mrs. Davis of Virginia. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just have a question with regards to Afghanistan and the heroin there. Last year, when we had--I think it was last year, when we had testimony before the House Armed Services Committee and the International Relations Committee and the question was asked each time, before we went into or after we went into Afghanistan, what did we do with the heroin crop that was there? I understand there was a great amount of it. There was a lot stored. I was just in Italy last week with the transatlantic legislators dialog, and the members of the European parliament there were complaining that we have not done our job on getting rid of the heroin, and it was coming into their countries. And my concern is, because the answer we got on our Armed Services and our International Relations Committee was that it wasn't our concern because the Europeans would need to take care of it--the Brits, I guess, would have to take care of it because it was going into Europe, not coming here. I didn't buy that then, and I don't buy it now, because whether the actual heroin goes into there or here, the dollars go into the hands of the terrorists. Where are we on--and I don't care who answers it. All of you can answer it. Where are we on that? Mr. Simons. Let me take a crack at answering that, and maybe Andre can support it. At the time that we intervened militarily in Afghanistan, we were more or less in between drug cycles. The previous year, the Taliban had implemented a rather successful ban, which resulted in a substantial decline in drug cultivation; and we were--we intervened really right around the planting season so farmers had to decide, right at about the time that our military was going in there, whether they were going to plant opium or whether they were going to plant something else. And there was a political vacuum at that point. They didn't have any government really to look toward, and so a large number of them did make the choice of planting opium at that time. What we did in the immediate aftermath of the conflict, though, was to work with the incoming administration to assign a very high priority to the counterdrug effort; and in the Bonn negotiations that took place in December 2001, the priority assigned to counter drugs was a major factor. And 1 month after taking office, President Karzai decreed a comprehensive ban that went beyond what the Taliban had put into place, covering cultivation as well as trafficking and processing. So, and since then, as you mentioned, we have been working with the British, with the Germans and others to try to put the institutions in place--to try to put in place alternative livelihood possibilities for farmers to discourage them--to get them out of the business. The problem, like everything else in Afghanistan, has been, we're basically starting from ground zero, and it has been very difficult. The government does not control the countryside, does not control security in the countryside. They do not have effective means of implementing what their political goals are. So we have to some extent changed the focus of our programs in the last year. We are focusing more on institutional development, more on law enforcement. We're providing some support for alternative cropping, but we recognize the alternative cropping support is not really going to be effective until you have greater government control of the countryside. And we are working together with the Europeans, who do, and we believe ought to have the primary responsibility for this issue, because some 90 percent of their heroin does come from Afghanistan. And they have stood up to the plate, the British. It is a very high priority for the British prime minister, one of his highest priorities. And they pledged 75 million pounds within the last month. The Germans have come along, and they are helping to train the police. And we have a good relationship with some of the key ministers in Afghanistan. But this is going to be a long-term effort. We are starting from a very low level of institutional development. And, quite frankly, we are disappointed that we haven't been able to move quicker on this. Mrs. Davis of Virginia. Go ahead. Mr. Guevara. If I may, on behalf of DEA let me say, in May 2002, Congress approved DEA's request for a reallocation of 17 positions overseas and allowed us to reprogram some funding. And that became, to DEA, what we described as Operation Containment. And as a result of that support, through Operation Containment, DEA has established a permanent presence in that part of the world; and we have opened an office in Kabul, Afghanistan. And while the challenges there are many, as my colleague from the State Department has outlined, DEA has also strengthened its presence in several other Asian countries in the region where Afghan morphine is transported, processed, and eventually makes its way to markets in Moscow, London, potentially the United States. And, of course, the money that returns to those interests is of particular interest to us. DEA has also worked with Uzbekistan to form a Sensitive Investigations Unit, that I refer to in my testimony, for purposes of pursuing these major priority targets. And although the challenges are many and I can tell you that my two DEA agents in Kabul are living in a boxcar in the embassy compound because of the reality of the situation being what it is, we are nonetheless making every effort to expand our influence in that region and to check this tremendous threat of heroin coming from Afghanistan. Mrs. Davis of Virginia. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Souder. Mr. Davis of Illinois. Mr. Davis of Illinois. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Let me commend you for the continuous leadership that you and Ranking Member Cummings display in pursuit of matters relating to these issues. Mr. Simons, we know that eradication alone is not a solution to the problem of drug crop cultivation by poor people, and that establishment of long-term alternatives that are viable to ruin elicit drug crops is clearly necessary, if not the most important part of a long-term solution. How would you assess the success of USAID alternative development projects in Colombia, Bolivia, and Peru? And are there cases where we can point to successes as well as failures that we can draw important lessons from? Mr. Simons. Thank you, Mr. Davis. When Plan Colombia was put together in the year 2000, I think one of the geniuses of the design of the program was the fact that it provided not only for an eradication and an interdiction platform, but it also provided for a substantial increase in resources for alternative development, for institution building, and for support to internally displaced persons. So this has been one of the key pillars of our efforts in Colombia, as well as in Bolivia and Peru. In Colombia, we face a unique challenge with respect to alternative development, which is that in many of the areas in which we are conducting areas of eradication, we have two factors present that we don't have in Peru and Bolivia. First, these are not regions that are traditionally agricultural in nature. Many of these areas were deforested in order to make way for coca cultivation. So you don't have an agricultural tradition there; you have folks who have come in and are basically commonists, who have come in to grow coca. That is the first point. And the second point is that the Colombian Government until recently has not had adequate security control of these areas, which has made it very difficult for our practitioners to go in and carry out the kinds of alternative development programs that we have in some of the neighboring countries. So in Colombia we have operated with those two serious obstacles; and about a year ago we recognized that we needed to change the way we were doing alternative development in Colombia, that we couldn't simply encourage these farmers to grow other crops in areas that were not necessarily sustainable for farming. And we also recognized that there were security obstacles. So our alternative development program in Colombia now focuses on providing essential rural infrastructure, providing support in some of the municipalities, providing alternatives that aren't necessarily farming alternatives in areas that are not traditionally farming communities. So it is a different kind of an alternative development program. It is not purely a cropping program. And I think AID has made a good effort to transition that program toward broader support for building infrastructure in small towns and providing alternatives in agro-processing, in community development, and in small-scale infrastructure. And so I think the program in that regard is moving in the right direction. But it will always be more difficult to do these alternative development programs in Colombia; the circumstances are different. In Peru and Ecuador, in Peru and Bolivia, I believe that our alternative development programs have been one of the major reasons why we haven't seen a larger increase in coca cultivation there in the last couple of years. We have very good inroads, we have good relationships with the local communities, we have very effective U.S. implementers operating. We know the terrain. We know every hectare there in Peru and Bolivia. We can measure them, we can go in there, we can work with the local communities. We can encourage in certain cases manual eradication to take place. So our job is not quite as complex. It is still very difficult. We have had the resources, which were sustained in Bonn, and Colombia. So I think in Peru and Bolivia, we hope to consolidate the progress that we have made; and in Colombia we have a slightly different approach, but I think it is moving in the right direction. Mr. Davis of Illinois. Very quickly, Mr. Chairman, could I ask, is training a part in Colombia? I mean, you mentioned the alternatives relative to infrastructure development and different things that can be done. But are there things that people are being trained to do so that they have work alternative in--you know, as opposed to running the illegal crops? Mr. Simons. My understanding is that most of the alternative up to now has been used for small-scale infrastructure. And also, yes, training is definitely a part of it, and particularly in those areas in which we are still doing alternative cropping, which we are doing a certain amount of that. So, yes, there is a training component. Mr. Davis of Illinois. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Souder. Thank you. Ranking Member Cummings. Mr. Cummings. Mr. Chairman, I want to thank you, too, for holding this hearing. I want to thank all of our witnesses for being with us this morning, and I want to apologize for running a little late because of a conflict with another meeting. [The prepared statement of Hon. Elijah E. Cummings follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.062 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.063 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.064 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T2515.065 Mr. Cummings. Let me ask just one quick question, Mr. Simons. You said that--in your written testimony you state that Mexican drug traffickers will readily substitute methamphetamine for cocaine if and when the Colombian cocaine market wanes. Can you elaborate a little bit on that? Mr. Simons. I believe the issue here is the role of Mexican organized crime in facilitating drug trafficking more broadly in this country. And the notion here is--I mean, our sense is that the Mexicans will essentially move into those areas of market that are opened up for them. Already, Mexican organized crime groups dominate methamphetamine production inside this country. In California, they dominate distribution of methamphetamine. They dominate the transport of precursor chemicals from Canada into the United States. This is dominated by Mexican trafficking organizations. So they have quite a firm foothold in many different aspects of the trafficking patterns in different drugs. So I think the point here is that they will look at targets of opportunity. And to the extent that we are successful in driving out cocaine, they will be creative and look at other targets of opportunity. Which is why I think the efforts that have been under way, and particularly with DEA, to attack the Mexican trafficking organizations with the strong support of President Fox and the work of the Attorney General are extremely important and are issues that we need to devote even more resources to. Mr. Cummings. Did you have something, Mr. Guevara? Mr. Guevara. Sir? Mr. Cummings. And I would also like for you to comment on, you know, with these recent elections in Mexico, it gives us all pause for concern when Mr. Fox's party apparently didn't do so well. And it seems there is quite a bit of concern now as to at least the stability of the Fox government. So I just was curious as to how--first of all, it seems to be a tremendously improved situation under his administration. And do you all have any concerns about that? And how has the relationship, in your opinion, been overall? Mr. Guevara. Speaking for DEA, sir, I can say that the relationship certainly with DEA and our Mexican counterparts has never been better. If it is not perfect, it is as good as I have ever seen it in my 31 years. Mr. Cummings. Is that a lot because of the President, President Fox? Mr. Guevara. Yes, sir. I have to say that it is, because he has set the standard. He has put a high bar and an intolerance, if you will, for corruption and things that have occurred in the past, and he has taken very meaningful steps toward stemming that. And I can point, for instance, to the fact that the Mexican Government disbanded the former Mexican Federal Judicial Police, and in its place they have put up the Agencia de Federal Investigaciones, which is comparable to our FBI; and that the standards have been raised to where the new recruits now need to be college educated and their salary has increased. And from what we see on the ground with working with these folks, it is a meaningful and, more importantly in DEA's view, a visible effort at trying to check the problem, that corruption. Does it exist? It exists everywhere, most certainly. But the fact is that they have made what I consider to be some meaningful steps to try to improve that particular situation. Mr. Cummings. Yes? Mr. Mackin. To comment on the Mexican drug trafficking organizations, there are--according to our National Drug Threat Assessment done by the National Drug Intelligence Center, there are 13 primary market cities in the United States that receive drugs from international sources, and from there, they are distributed to the secondary markets. Mexican drug traffickers control or they dominate 11 of the 13 markets, so they are basically in control within the United States. And if we are successful in eradicating cocaine or otherwise stopping it from getting into the United States, the Mexicans, who now control the distribution network--and they are the manufacturer of methamphetamine--are undoubtedly going to raise production to fill the demand. And the profit on meth is higher than cocaine, so I am sure they would welcome that event. Then, second, I would like to compliment DEA in its role in Mexico City. I was down there a couple of weeks ago as the U.S. interdiction coordinator and getting a general feel for what is happening. The DEA senior officer down there has brought together the FBI and the DHS resources there. They meet daily; in their staff meetings they share everything. It is one of the finest integrations of capabilities that I have seen in overseas countries in my long career. They are doing a fine job with their Mexican counterparts; and, yes, indeed it is due to Fox. Fox has done a fine job. I wish he could do more. Thank you. Mr. Cummings. Just one last thing, if I might. You know, in my district and Mr. Ruppersberger's--and we have adjoining districts. I hear all the time from my constituents. They say, you know, we see all this cocaine in our neighborhoods. But we don't own any boats, any planes, any trains, and in many instances no buses. And they get very frustrated. And I try to explain to them that the drugs are literally flooded into our country, and it is almost impossible to stop all this stuff from going on. And, that we have a situation where these people who export these drugs or traffic in drugs, they understand that they are going to pay a tax. And they expect to get caught sometimes. Is that reasonable? And so they accept the fact that maybe 1 out of every 10 tons is going to go down the tubes in some kind of way. But people get very, very frustrated when we try to explain to them the magnitude of the problem. And I imagine many Members of Congress go through the same thing. And they seem to think--I am talking about regular ``Joe and Mary on the street'' people. It is so hard for them to even comprehend how much effort there is put forth not only by those trying to traffic drugs, but by our Coast Guard and people like you all and what you all try to do every day. And I tell you, it does get rather frustrating, trying to explain it, that is. Anybody comment? Mr. Mackin. I would like to mention---- Mr. Cummings. Maybe you could help me explain it a little better. But it is hard, because I live in a drug-infested place in Baltimore. And it is really--it is tough. And I tell them, I see guys like you all every day and we talk and I try to explain to them what you all do. And this is in no way a criticism, because I understand it. But trying to explain it to them is a whole other thing. Mr. Mackin. You have to look at this as a business opportunity for foreign criminals. This is a $64 billion industry with tremendous market opportunities. And they don't have to pay taxes on it since it is illicit drugs; their profit margins are very high. A lot of people are attracted to it, and a lot of very clever people are attracted to it. And in my opinion, the only way we can ever really hope to diminish this is to get at their money. If you deny them the flow-back of their proceeds, they will eventually say, hey, there is no money in this and I am going to do something else. Mr. Cummings. Just last but not least. You said 11 out of 13 of those---- Mr. Mackin. Primary market cities. Mr. Cummings [continuing]. Are controlled by Mexicans? Mr. Mackin. Yeah. They dominate the delivery, the transportation of the drugs to the cities, and then the distribution to the secondary markets. Mr. Cummings. Do you know or do you all believe that these are folks who--in other words, is it one group that controls three of the four? Do you understand what I am saying? Or is it just different--you believe, different groups of folks who are controlling each one of those 11? Mr. Mackin. I think it is different in that--you know, this follows the migration of Mexican laborers into the United States. They establish residences and their familial connections. If you look at a map, when you see how the drugs are distributed, you can understand that in the west the Mexicans would be very dominant out there by the contiguity of Mexico. But in looking at--one of the primary market cities is Atlanta, and I am looking at this saying, they dominate Atlanta? And then a colleague of mine who has been retired for years from a career in DEA said, yeah, if you think of the Olympics in the 1990's, when that was ramped up, a lot of migrant workers went there to help in the construction and do the services; and then they remained in the area. Now, those family connections have allowed the traffickers in Mexico to make the linkages and to use them to receive drugs and just to help be the host to the infrastructure. Mr. Cummings. Thank you. Mr. Souder. One of the things that really is sobering on this scale is that we just had two of the biggest busts of cocaine in my hometown's history. One was $1.3 million I think, and one was $750,000. They were 26 and 30 pounds. In Colombia, while we were down there, they are picking up interdictions of a ton of cocaine, 2,000 pounds in one shot. And it is just an extraordinary difference from--once it gets out and starts to move, they break it into smaller and smaller loads. And if we can get it when it is a ton rather than try to deal with it--I mean, 26 pounds is a lot of kilos. I wanted to, let me first ask a couple of heroin questions. Does much Afghan heroin comes--let me, with Mr. Simons and then Mr. Guevara, you can maybe elaborate if there is any question about it. Afghan heroin mostly goes toward Europe. What percentage would you say comes to the United States? Mr. Simons. A very small percentage of Afghan heroin comes here, but I believe that the signature program--I will defer to Mr. Guevara, but I believe the latest number is somewhere around 7 percent of our heroin comes from Afghanistan. But that is much less than 7 percent of the Afghan production. Mr. Souder. Let me ask a couple followups then with Mr. Guevara. If 7 percent is Afghan, in Mr. Simons' statement--and I have a followup question with that in just a minute because I want to draw out some of the other countries we didn't get to in some of the testimony. Burma is the second largest producer of opium. What percentage of American heroin would you say is Burmese? Mr. Guevara. Yes, sir. One of the things that we have seen with regard to the Burmese heroin situation is the merger, if you will, of those interests with Sino--Thai-Chinese trafficking organizations. And some of the influences that are coming into our country, particularly to areas like New York, represent cultivations occurring in Burma that are being transshipped through other parts of Southeast Asia that are controlled by Southeast Asian organized crime, and then taking the raw product and refining it into heroin and then smuggling it into the United States. I recall that our best estimate there is also about 7 percent. Mr. Souder. In your testimony, you said that you thought Colombia, I believe, was producing 5 percent of the world's heroin, and it was predominant on the East Coast. What percentage of U.S. heroin would you say is Colombian? Mr. Guevara. I would estimate that the U.S. market is about 30 percent of Colombian heroin, and that the Colombian heroin or South American-type heroin predominates the Eastern part of the United States, east of the Mississippi, and that the Mexican heroin predominates west of the Mississippi. Mr. Souder. And would you say that--we are up to 44 percent, but we are still under half. So Mexico would have what percent? Mr. Guevara. Mexico represents about 30 percent as well. Mr. Souder. And where is the bulk of that? That is still only two-thirds. You are missing 33 percent. I am wondering, if Afghanistan is the biggest producer and Burma is the second biggest producer and whereas Colombia and Mexico aren't as big of producers, but they provide to the United States, is this something that is really hard to identify? And could, in fact, the Asian heroin be a higher percent? Mr. Guevara. That is entirely possible. The principal threat from the Mexican-origin heroin is that the--although it is a relatively small percentage of the world production, the fact is that the majority, with only a little left in country for domestic abuse, the rest of it is targeted for the U.S. market. So although it is a relatively small portion of the world production, we're their market and it is directed entirely at us. So that creates a greater threat. And, of course, because of our geography, you know, they are flooding our markets; and as I said, they control the Western market of the United States. Mr. Souder. We are concerned about the heroin problem in Colombia. The amount of eradication has gone down, some of the interdiction has gone down. At the same time, in being there just these past few days, part of it is they can't find it. It is a question of, have we so damaged the crop that it is not there right now? Is it that it is spread to new locations? But is it also possible that there is more Colombian heroin on the market than we thought? Mr. Guevara. It is possible that there is more heroin on the market than we know. And one of the indicators there is that when they started trafficking heroin to the United States initially, in the early 1990's, they were doing it by way of body--carrying a pound, a kilogram, through ingestion--and then smuggling it into the country through the airports primarily. And over the course of time, as they have gained that foothold, and indeed are in the process of cornering the market in the Eastern United States, those same shipments are now coming in in larger amounts. They are coming in the 15- kilogram, the 24-kilogram quantities. And that tells us that, of course, there is more production and that they are ever stronger in the United States. The street purity is higher and the price is down. So clearly they are taking a stronger foothold, and, again, control the Eastern half of the United States. I may have been in error when I said 30 percent of the cocaine--excuse me, the heroin represented the Colombian-origin heroin. I believe it is actually closer to 56 percent. Mr. Souder. OK. Now, Mr. Simons, I wanted to ask you some questions on Burma. That, given the current Government of Burma's policies, it is unlikely--it is nearly inconceivable that our government is going to relax any of the restrictions we currently have on the ability to operate within Burma. Have you found that the Chinese have--the Thais, you say in your testimony, have worked really hard to control and worked with us and have had a history of working with us on counternarcotics. It was really disturbing in your written testimony to hear that they are working with the United Wa, which controls a large territory of Burma and controls most of the opium area, that they have agreed to end production after 2005. Two questions: One is, is that really meaningful at all or is there any explanation why it would be after 2005? Because that is a ridiculous position, we are not going to do anything until 2005. And then how, what is the Chinese ability to control the north quarter of Burma? And have they been cooperating from a governmental standpoint? And then if there is a DEA followup, too. Mr. Simons. Thank you. The commitment by the Wa to terminate opium production by 2005 was made about 3 years ago. And the statistics actually show that opium cultivation has been declining in Burma over the past several years, although it still remains at unacceptable levels. The issue with the Wa really is the following: They are coming under a lot of pressure from the Chinese, because a lot of the opium that formerly went south through Thailand is now going out north through China, is servicing a very large Chinese market, and some of it is being exported in that direction. So the Chinese have been cracking down on the Burmese and on the Wa, on that heroin traffic out through the north. And the other--but the other real major issue is that the Wa have gotten into methamphetamines in a very, very big way. And as you probably know, methamphetamines are the major threat, drug threat in Southeast Asia now. And the Thai are largely preoccupied with the methamphetamine threat from Burma. They still remain concerned about the heroin threat, but methamphetamine is the overwhelming threat to public health, and it is one of the biggest national security problems in Thailand. So the Wa here--we are looking at several issues. We are looking to what they are doing on heroin, but we are also looking at what they are doing on methamphetamines. And up until now, I mean, the estimates of Burmese methamphetamine production are upwards of 700 million tablets a year, of flooding the entire Southeast Asia region, troubling not just the Government of Thailand, but creating public health problems in Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, Indonesia. So it is a very, very, very serious problem. And so we have several threats there. It is not just heroin. It is also methamphetamines. Mr. Souder. Mr. Guevara, do you have any presence in China? Are they cooperative? Do they work with you? Mr. Guevara. Yes, sir. Mr. Souder. Particularly along any of that border area, which is a very tough zone? Mr. Guevara. The United Province, I believe, is that region. And I am happy to say that DEA has established an office in Beijing and that we have several agents that are assigned there. And we have recently seen the results of the liaison that DEA is responsible for conducting there in a Southeast Asian heroin investigation in which the Burmese- origin opium was being converted to morphine base and then subsequently to heroin. It was transiting through the United Province, and then transiting Hong Kong, and in the end was ending up on the street of New York City. And that investigation culminated with the arrest of several individuals in China, in Hong Kong, in New York. And in addition to that, followup investigation led to the location and dismantling of a methamphetamine laboratory that was found in, I believe, the city of Calcutta, India. So to answer your question, we are indeed fortunate to have a DEA presence in Beijing. And we enjoy very good liaison with our counterparts in China. Mr. Souder. All your written statements will be in record, but I want to make sure I verbally note a couple points here, too. In Mr. Simons' testimony, you say while Mexico appears to be the largest foreign source of processed methamphetamine, the U.S. Government is concerned that Canada has become a significant source of the precursor chemical pseudoephedrine, also a source of high potency marijuana. And you say you remain concerned that the resulting control regime they have passed in Canada may not be strong enough, particularly on the investigative enforcement front. And I hope you will keep the committee--we're very involved with the Canadian parliamentary group; we have been battling on all these issues--informed of any specifics that you want us to continue to pursue aggressively with Canada. Also, in your testimony on the precursors, you talk about that and Ecstasy, about the Netherlands, which is supplying, we believe, most of the Ecstasy to the United States. And you make a reference to the fact that at the end of June they seized 12 million Ecstasy pills in Rotterdam, which was more than our total seized in the United States. In your testimony you say, in 2001 we seized 9.5 million, and the one bust in Rotterdam was 12 million. Do you have any comments on--other than the law enforcement, from the governmental end, do you believe the Dutch are understanding the nature of their problem and are working aggressively to address it, that they are understanding that they have, in precursor chemicals, become the center, kind of the Colombia of Europe? Mr. Simons. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, let me salute your efforts and the efforts of your staff to work cooperatively with the Department of State on the whole issue of synthetics and precursors. We have had a very good dialog that goes back several years on this. And as you know, the President in his annual drug certification letter to Congress on January 30th of this year specifically cited the concerns that we have both with Canada on the issue of the precursors, the pseudoephedrine, as well as the issue with respect to synthetics and the Government of the Netherlands. Again, that letter was issued on January 30th. Since then, in the intervening months, we have been quite actively engaged on the diplomatic front to work more cooperatively with both countries on these respective issues. We have a good dialog going with the Canadians; we have our law enforcement agencies working actively on the issue of how these regulations are being implemented. We will certainly keep in touch with you. The regulations are new. They have only been out a couple months, so we don't have an extremely long time period to test how they are being put into place. But this is something we are paying close attention to. Similarly, with respect to the Netherlands, in the wake of the President's letter, we worked out a bilateral action plan. We have had a couple of sets in meetings. We are beginning to engage with the Dutch on ways that we can work together more cooperatively. DEA has been very active in that, as well as the Department of State, and certainly we believe that the Ecstasy issue is an important one and one we need to work together cooperatively on. So we will promise to keep in touch with you on how we are doing on this. Mr. Souder. And last, before I go to the next member. Both you and Mr. Hollis--and Mr. Hollis could briefly comment. In your written statement, you refer to our friends from North Korea. Could you describe a little bit how they emerged from a drug threat--I'll have Mr. Hollis do this--and, also, how cooperative they are? Mr. Hollis. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And as you accurately noted, there are a variety of folks in the interagency and the Congress in the international arena who are very concerned about the reports of drug trafficking emanating from North Korea. The numbers are not clear yet. The estimates are not 100 percent accurate in terms of what we do know versus what we don't know, and I would be happy--and I would defer to State, who leads the interagency effort, to come up here and brief you in a secure fashion, you and any other Members and appropriate staff, on what we do know and don't know. But I would pose this question: To the extent that elements within North Korea engage in drug trafficking and generate money from it, we know that money is not going to feeding the people. So where is it going? And that raises some very serious concerns. Mr. Souder. Do you have anything to add to that, Mr. Simons? Mr. Simons. I would just know that the two areas that we are looking into--and there is a very active interagency exercise under way right now--are methamphetamines and opium. We are discussing the issue with our Japanese colleagues, with our South Korean colleagues. Clearly, there is quite a large body of evidence that suggests that North Korean traffickers have been marketing methamphetamine for many years in the Asia region. And we have also had quite a few reports of opium trafficking and a number of allegations which we have not been able to substantiate about opium cultivation. So we are taking a look at all of these issues on an interagency basis. There have been some hearings up here in Congress; and we'll continue to keep you informed. Mr. Souder. Mr. Ruppersberger. Mr. Ruppersberger. I want to get back to the issue I talked about, the allocation of national resources to drug interdiction missions. Many of our most significant interdiction assets were due to move to the new Department of Homeland Security. And based on--we talked about the information received by our staff and other experts, one of them being at the Joint Interagency Task Force in Key West, FL; that these--as a result of the transfer of the resources to Homeland Security, it has begun to have a dire negative impact on drug interdiction. And some detection and interception programs have available only a minuscule portion of the amount of resources the government experts have deemed necessary for adequate drug interdiction. Now, I talked about before, and really the purpose of--one of the purposes of today's hearing is to try to determine precisely, what has been the extent of the disruption as a result of the transfer, what steps can be taken to ensure the adequacy of interdiction resources, and whether resources will ever return to previous levels. And I will give you an example, because I want to get the specificity. I understand all of you are representing your different departments and you want to speak positively about your department, but we want to help give you the resources to do your job. And when you look at the fact that it had been stated that more than 300 metric tons of cocaine, that previously would have been detected and intercepted, may have been allowed on America's streets last year because our resources have been diverted to other purposes, I would like each one of you to address that issue as far as that amount of cocaine coming into the United States; and then address the issue of what is determined--you know, what the extent of the disruption has been because of the change, what steps can be taken to ensure the adequacy of the interdiction resources, and whether resources will ever return to the levels that you think they should be. Do you want to start, Mr. Simons? Mr. Simons. Thank you. I would just like to make two points here. I think, from the State Department perspective, most of our programs are international, are not that directly involved in some of the assets that are made available by the U.S. agencies. But I would like to cite two examples. First, when you talk about resources, you are talking not just about financial resources, but also human resources. And one of the issues that we did encounter immediately after September 11 was that some of the agencies that had provided us trainers for overseas law enforcement in our training academies and our training programs were obliged to move some of those training personnel back to operational activities in the continental United States. That was immediately after September 11. But we found that within---- Mr. Ruppersberger. Who were those ``some'' that were diverted? Mr. Simons. Which agencies were involved? Mr. Ruppersberger. Yeah. Mr. Simons. I think all of the U.S. law enforcement agencies that teach at our International Law Enforcement Academy. So it would be the DEA and the FBI, Customs. But there was a huge mobilization immediately after September 11, as you are aware, and many people were diverted. But we found that within several months we were able to, working very closely with all of the agencies and being a little bit creative in terms of who we looked to conduct the training--in certain cases, we had to look to retired instead of active duty--we found that we were able to restore the faculties to all our International Law Enforcement Academies within several months. And there was a good spirit I think, an interagency spirit, not to want to interrupt these programs, recognizing that training of international drug and law enforcement officials is something that is going to pay off for the United States in the long run. So that, I think, is a positive signal. The other positive signal I wanted to send was on the Airbridge Denial Program. We haven't had a chance to talk about that yet in this hearing, but we have had, I think, a very strong interagency commitment of very scarce assets to get that program up and running. Specifically--I think Mr. Mackin has this in his testimony, but the Bureau of Homeland Security has agreed to contribute P-3 aerial surveillance aircraft that are in very short supply to the Airbridge Denial Effort. DOD is contributing substantial human assets. Again, a lot of the issues here are human capital, not just financial capital. They are contributing substantial human capital out of JIATF South in Key West. The FAA is providing important advisors on the Colombian Civil Aviation component of this. So we have a good interagency effort to move forward this Presidential priority. Mr. Ruppersberger. Mr. Hollis. Mr. Hollis. Thank you, Congressman. Specifically, the number of U.S. Navy ships in the Caribbean and the Eastern Pacific did not change after September 11. Mr. Ruppersberger. You said that before. Mr. Hollis. Second. Mr. Ruppersberger. But I'm looking for what areas, other than that, where there has been a diversion. Mr. Hollis. Yes, sir. We have annually assigned Reserve P-3 pilots. Those pilots went to go provide support in Afghanistan and Iraq. I believe that if they've not returned already, that they will be returning. So to the extent that we have a certain number of hours where P-3 pilots---- Mr. Ruppersberger. Let me stop you right here. And I understand that, and I would love to hear the positive. But we talked about the 300 metric tons coming onto the streets. There is no question; I mean, people have said that. What is the reason for that? Where have these resources been diverted? If you can't answer the question, then just tell me. But the bottom line--I mean, I want to hear the positive. We want to keep doing it. And as I said before, it is not about you all, it is about the direction of the resources at the top to give you the resources to do the job. Mr. Hollis. From a DOD perspective, the only thing that we lost were those P-3 pilots. Mr. Ruppersberger. Mr. Guevara, how about you? Mr. Guevara. Yes, sir. I'm in the unique situation of being able to say that we are a single-mission agency, and that prior to September 11 we were engaged fully in the business of drug enforcement and continue to do so. With regard to the resource redirection, I can also say that we are fortunate enough, under the 2003 budget, to have received an additional 216 new special agents in addition to other support personnel. And I couldn't agree more with what has been said here, that at the end of the day really what makes the difference is that one narcotics officer who is out there doing the job. And I am optimistic that for the 2004 budget we will receive additional enhancements. Mr. Ruppersberger. But what is the reason for the 300 metric tons of cocaine that previously would have been detected that have come into the United States of America? What do you feel, since September 11, the reason for that is? That is what I am trying to get to. I mean, that's--experts in the drug field have stated that. There has been a diversion. There is no question there has been a diversion. And we are talking about teamwork. I think teamwork has been fantastic with respect to terrorism. But what is the reason for that then? Where would you like to see resources go that aren't going now? I will ask the question that way. Mr. Guevara. I will defer to my colleagues from the State Department and the DOD on that. Mr. Ruppersberger. Why? Why would you defer to them, if you are the sole source? I am just trying to get the issue about where the resources are. I know you are representing your agency, but we are trying to find the reason; that is the purpose of the hearing. Why is there a reluctance of anybody on the panel to say where you would want more resources to do the job on a very difficult job? That is all I am asking. I mean, you are an expert in the field. We have testimony, we have statements. There we go , saved by the bell. Yes, Mr. Mackin. Mr. Mackin. The most vulnerable resource is the P-3 aircraft. For example, during Liberty Shield, there were 18 P- 3s, they were all devoted to the northern border. I am not saying that was wrong. But just, when you're looking for what's diverted away, and when you lose your airborne aircraft like that, a seacraft, a hull is far less efficient. And so that is one. And then, of course, Admiral Collins, you guys have been helping him. He needs more resource. And finally, on this 300 metric tons, we are getting about one-third of what we know about. Last year, we knew about 471 metric tons that were moving north. We got one-third of that. If we had more resource, we would be getting a higher. But I think even prior to the September 11 we were short of resource. In other words, the intelligence gives us more opportunity than we are able to exploit. Mr. Ruppersberger. The issue I am really looking for is the diversion of funds into fighting terrorism, which is necessary, but being taken away from drug enforcement. One other thing, because my time is almost up and we have to go vote. The linkage between the drug trade and terrorism, and specifically al Qaeda. Al Qaeda is looking for different ways for money. I know there are issues with respect--in Colombia with the FARC as an example. Do you see that developing even from a stronger perspective? Mr. Hollis. Congressman, not every drug trafficker is a terrorist; not every terrorist is a drug trafficker. But there is a group in the middle of terrorist organizations that generate revenue from drug trafficking. And as our colleagues in law enforcement throughout the world identify and attack their illicit sources of finances, what we are seeing is that they are increasingly relying upon illicit sources of finance, whether it is drugs, whether it is diamonds, whether it is arms, whether it is that whole realm of what Admiral Blair, the former commander of Pacific Command called ``that criminal covert sewer,'' and he's exactly right. So what we are seeing is, these groups are looking for sources of covert finance that they don't have to report to their taxing authority, and drugs is one of them. Mr. Ruppersberger. Anybody else? Mr. Souder. I wanted to make sure I get this question on the record, and in a comment regarding the 300 tons, that a lot of that is because the Coast Guard boats aren't out there; that is probably the biggest reason, along with the Airbridge Denial, which occurred just before September 11. But in answer to one of your questions, we heard something fairly disturbing. I want to yield to Mr. Davis in just a minute. I want to raise the question now. Don't answer the question, but then either we'll have a second to answer it, or I want written answers for it. Mr. Simons said--and I would like to ask the question to Mr. Mackin and get a response, if not right now, then later. If the President signs the Airbridge Denial Program today, what assets would be assigned? Mr. Simons implied one, you said--did you mean one P-3? Mr. Simons. I believe that is correct. But I believe it is included in Mr. Mackin's testimony. Mr. Souder. Because the problem that comes is that there were four. And to get four operating, you need eight, because you have flight time, you have refueling, you have maintenance, and one is barely a half. And so that is the type of thing we are concerned about, because the dramatic numbers that we were given that lead to that 300 million is largely boat and, specifically, airtime. One percent of the requested airtime is being covered right now of the proposed; out of the narcotics specialists, there is only 1 percent being covered. Now, part of that is Airbridge Denial; partly we are trying to do some from Coast Guard boats as opposed to P-3s. But if the Coast Guard boats are on orange alert and they are back up in the harbor, there is only one out there a lot of the time. And this is the Caribbean side, let alone the Eastern Pacific where we don't have an oiler. This is a huge, dramatic problem, and we can do a percentage of that at the border, but it does need to be addressed. Let me go to Mr. Davis, and then we will come back, because he has been patiently waiting. Mr. Davis of Illinois. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Mackin, how would you rank illegal drugs among the national security threats? I mean, where would you place illegal drug trafficking? Mr. Mackin. Congressman Souder said this at the start, but Secretary Ridge said this the other day. I was talking to him about the degree of threat that drugs pose and pointed out that over 19,000 a year die from overdoses. And his reaction was--he said, ``My God, that is six Twin Towers every year.'' It is. I think the impact is huge on our country. That is 19,000 say, 500 from overdoses; there is another 30,000 that die--like 30 percent of AIDS deaths are drug-related; they got it from the needles that they were using for drugs. It is imbedded in our fabric right now. The social cost is something like $161 billion a year, just social costs. Most people arrested in the 33 metropolitan areas, between 50 and 85 percent--it varies from one city to the other. But when they are arrested, they test positive for at least one drug. Fifty-two percent of drug addicts in the United States have illegal sources of income, and what that means is they are either stealing or they are in prostitution. It is devastating. Mr. Davis of Illinois. And you would say that the fact that you have now been brought on to work with this is an indication of the Homeland Security Department's recognizing that threat and how important it is? Mr. Mackin. I have talked to all the under secretaries, I have briefed them on the drug threat. Everyone, everyone is appalled and very concerned, and they are focusing--we are focusing our resources on this right now. There is a major scrubbing, looking at what can we do better. Mr. Davis of Illinois. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Souder. Mr. Mackin, did you want to respond to my earlier question on what if the President signs the Airbridge Interdiction, what assets would actually be assigned? Mr. Mackin. Sir, right now we are committed to providing one airborne early warning P-3. But as soon as we can get--once it's signed, we will get our crews and our P-3 tracker aircraft certified. So we will be putting two aircraft onsite for each week; they will be down there on weekly deployments. Mr. Souder. Do you know--and this may be Mr. Hollis, Mr. Mackin, or anybody--about Coronet Nighthawk and why the F-16s at the forward operating location would have been pulled after September 11? And is that going to be replaced? Mr. Hollis. I can tell you, Mr. Chairman, that the F-16s were pulled not necessarily because of September 11, but because F-16s as supersonic aircraft aren't good at detecting small, slow flying aircraft and ships. So it wasn't a matter of pulling them for other resources; it was a matter of realizing that supersonic aircraft armed with surface or air-to-air missiles aren't good at supporting law enforcement to interdict drug traffickers. Mr. Souder. Could you explain how the Department of Defense originally decided they would be good to put them there? Mr. Hollis. That is a good question, sir. And I can tell you that it was a decision that was made before I came on board. Mr. Souder. Do you feel that they might have thought that they would be a pretty strong deterrent effect if you saw F-16s coming after you? Because, quite frankly, isn't this also true, without getting into too much detail, some--after September 11 we used F-16s around the country in similar ways when it wasn't really feasible, but they were a pretty strong deterrent effect? Mr. Hollis. I think it is fair to say, sir, that the F-16s that have performed as part of Operation Liberty Shield were put up to prevent hostile aircraft from striking, again, sensitive and valued targets within the United States. I don't think anyone has ever proposed that we would use F-16s and fire upon slow-moving aircraft, particularly if we didn't know what was on them. So the question is, to what extent does having F-16s in, say, the Caribbean provide a credible deterrent to drug traffickers? The other part of it, which is also borne out by the facts, is that most of the drugs that are moving toward the United States are not indeed moving by air, they are moving by ship. Again, to what extent can an F-16 assist law enforcement in interdicting a Go Fast moving in the chop of the Caribbean Sea or the Eastern Pacific? Not much. So the question is more one of what is the operational value of using F-16s versus either other air platforms or other maritime platforms. Mr. Souder. Well, I want to thank you for your testimony, for being here today. We will have some additional written questions. As you can see from a pretty bipartisan approach here, we all favor more efficiency, we all favor streamlining and figuring out what is most effective. We have deep concerns on both sides of the aisle, including from the Speaker in my private conversations with him, and working through that. In fact, some of what is being done in the name of streamlining is just basically trying to get out of obligations in the drug area, and that we had previous coalitions and that if everybody pulls out in these pieces or reduces their commitment, we are left standing comparatively defenseless. That is why our DEA needs to be increased in its boosting up to provide additional information. If FBI is going to be pulled off this, if ATF is going to be diverted, if Homeland Security is worried and has a legitimate Homeland Security threat and they are going to be off narcotics, then who are the people going to be that are doing the narcotics and where are those people going to be funded? And we have to make sure that in chasing the possible catastrophic threats to the United States we don't lose our battle in the day-to-day threats that are killing all sorts of people in every community--rural, urban, suburban--in every State of the Union. I thank you all for your leadership and look forward to continuing to work with you. And the subcommittee stands adjourned. 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