<DOC>
[108th Congress House Hearings]
[From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access]
[DOCID: f:89969.wais]
INTERNATIONAL CHILD ABDUCTION: THE ABSENCE OF RIGHTS OF ABDUCTED
AMERICAN CITIZENS IN SAUDI ARABIA
=======================================================================
HEARING
before the
SUBCOMMITTEE ON HUMAN RIGHTS AND WELLNESS
of the
COMMITTEE ON
GOVERNMENT REFORM
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
JULY 9, 2003
__________
Serial No. 108-67
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Reform
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.gpo.gov/congress/house
http://www.house.gov/reform
______
89-969 U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
WASHINGTON : 2003
____________________________________________________________________________
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COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM
TOM DAVIS, Virginia, Chairman
DAN BURTON, Indiana HENRY A. WAXMAN, California
CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Connecticut TOM LANTOS, California
ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida MAJOR R. OWENS, New York
JOHN M. McHUGH, New York EDOLPHUS TOWNS, New York
JOHN L. MICA, Florida PAUL E. KANJORSKI, Pennsylvania
MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York
STEVEN C. LaTOURETTE, Ohio ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland
DOUG OSE, California DENNIS J. KUCINICH, Ohio
RON LEWIS, Kentucky DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois
JO ANN DAVIS, Virginia JOHN F. TIERNEY, Massachusetts
TODD RUSSELL PLATTS, Pennsylvania WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri
CHRIS CANNON, Utah DIANE E. WATSON, California
ADAM H. PUTNAM, Florida STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts
EDWARD L. SCHROCK, Virginia CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, Maryland
JOHN J. DUNCAN, Jr., Tennessee LINDA T. SANCHEZ, California
JOHN SULLIVAN, Oklahoma C.A. ``DUTCH'' RUPPERSBERGER,
NATHAN DEAL, Georgia Maryland
CANDICE S. MILLER, Michigan ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of
TIM MURPHY, Pennsylvania Columbia
MICHAEL R. TURNER, Ohio JIM COOPER, Tennessee
JOHN R. CARTER, Texas CHRIS BELL, Texas
WILLIAM J. JANKLOW, South Dakota ------
MARSHA BLACKBURN, Tennessee BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont
(Independent)
Peter Sirh, Staff Director
Melissa Wojciak, Deputy Staff Director
Rob Borden, Parliamentarian
Teresa Austin, Chief Clerk
Philip M. Schiliro, Minority Staff Director
Subcommittee on Human Rights and Wellness
DAN BURTON, Indiana, Chairman
CHRIS CANNON, Utah DIANE E. WATSON, California
CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Connecticut BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont
ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida (Independent)
ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland
Ex Officio
TOM DAVIS, Virginia HENRY A. WAXMAN, California
Mark Walker, Staff Director
Mindi Walker, Professional Staff Member and Clerk
Tony Haywood, Minority Counsel
C O N T E N T S
----------
Page
Hearing held on July 9, 2003..................................... 1
Statement of:
Dornier, Debbie, mother of Sarah Saga........................ 70
Harty, Maura, Assistant Secretary, Consular Affairs, U.S.
Department of State........................................ 21
Saga, Sarah, American citizen abducted to Saudi Arabia in
1986....................................................... 59
Letters, statements, etc., submitted for the record by:
Burton, Hon. Dan, a Representative in Congress from the State
of Indiana:
Prepared statement of.................................... 8
Prepared statement of Ms. Radwan, Saudi Embassy.......... 46
Cummings, Hon. Elijah E., a Representative in Congress from
the State of Maryland, prepared statement of............... 2
Dornier, Debbie, mother of Sarah Saga, prepared statement of. 73
Harty, Maura, Assistant Secretary, Consular Affairs, U.S.
Department of State, prepared statement of................. 23
Maloney, Hon. Carolyn B., a Representative in Congress from
the State of New York, prepared statement of............... 13
Saga, Sarah, American citizen abducted to Saudi Arabia in
1986, prepared statement of................................ 51
Watson, Hon. Diane E., a Representative in Congress from the
State of California, prepared statement of................. 31
INTERNATIONAL CHILD ABDUCTION: THE ABSENCE OF RIGHTS OF ABDUCTED
AMERICAN CITIZENS IN SAUDI ARABIA
----------
WEDNESDAY, JULY 9, 2003
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on Human Rights and Wellness,
Committee on Government Reform,
Washington, DC.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:15 p.m., in
room 2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Dan Burton
(chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
Present: Representatives Burton and Watson.
Also present: Representatives Ose and Maloney.
Staff present: Mark Walker, chief of staff; Mindi Walker,
professional staff member and clerk; Nick Mutton, press
secretary; Mary Valentino, legislative director; Jonathan
Dilley, legislative assistant; Tiara Wuethrich, press
assistant; Kelly Lorenz, Will Drinkwater, Rob Rubenstein, and
Sheri Strickler, staff assistants; Allison Ket, Christopher
Orlando, and Peter Hamilton, interns; Tony Haywood, minority
counsel; and Jean Gosa, minority assistant clerk.
Mr. Burton. We are waiting on a couple of other Members. We
just had these votes, and so bear with us for a couple minutes
and then we will get started.
The Committee on Government Reform will come to order. We
have other Members that will be coming in, but we want to get
started because Ms. Harty has limited time with us, and we want
to make sure that she has a chance to hear some of the other
witnesses before she leaves.
A quorum being present, the Subcommittee on Human Rights
and Wellness comes to order. I ask unanimous consent that all
Members and witnesses' written and opening statements be
included in the record. And without objection, so ordered.
[The prepared statement of Hon. Elijah E. Cummings
follows:]
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9969.001
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9969.002
Mr. Burton. I ask unanimous consent that all articles,
exhibits, and the extraneous or tabular material referred to be
included in the record. And without objection, so ordered. And
I ask that we allow Members who are not members of this
subcommittee to participate in the hearing today and ask
questions, because we have a number of members who are on the
full committee that are very interested in this subject and
would like to participate.
Before I start with my opening remarks, I would just like
to say that yesterday I was trying to get Ms. Harty here to
testify on the second panel. And there is a supposedly, I
guess, a protocol which says that members of the administration
have to go first, and I don't have any problem with that. The
problem that I have is that in some cases where you want to set
the stage for government executive branch officials to respond
to questions, in some cases I think it is imperative that they
hear the problem. Now, Ms. Harty has agreed to see a copy of
the tape because she is going to have to leave about a quarter
to 4, and she said that she would answer questions that are
relevant to issues that come up after she leaves. And I
appreciate that very much. But I would just like to say that I
was disappointed that Mr. Kelly, who is head of the legislative
affairs branch down at the State Department, was very short
with this committee, and he indicated that the last time we had
a hearing of this type that we beat up on the person from the
State Department who was testifying. I recall that hearing very
well, and we didn't beat up on him, but we did ask him many,
many questions that he could not answer. And we asked him those
questions maybe several times.
Now, I wanted to explain that to Mr. Armitage, and I called
him two or three times yesterday, and he has been very helpful
in the past but he wouldn't return my phone calls. So we kind
of were stonewalled by the State Department yesterday, which I
think is very disappointing. I do appreciate Ms. Harty, as I
said before, being here, and she has been very helpful.
The one thing I think is very important for the State
Department to realize and the executive branch, and we have
talked about this under the Clinton administration, the Reagan
administration, and others, the Congress of the United States
has oversight responsibilities over the executive branch. It is
our responsibility to make sure that the executive branch and
parts of the executive branch don't screw up. And if they do,
we have the obligation to bring them down here to the Capitol
and ask them questions. And sometimes those questions are hard,
and sometimes the appearance is that we are grilling them. And
maybe we do get a little tough sometimes, and for that I will
apologize. But it is our responsibility to do that. And the
State Department and the people who work there for the most
part, in fact for entirely, they are appointed officials. They
do not answer to the electorate. We do. And if something goes
wrong in this government, we, the elected officials who are
responsible to the constituents of this country, have the
responsibility to bring the appointed officials down here and
ask them questions. They are not a law unto themselves. They
work for the people just like we do, but we are answerable to
the people. And for that reason we have the responsibility to
ask these questions.
And I wanted to get that clarified today. And I hope, Ms.
Harty, when you go back, you will tell Mr. Armitage, for whom I
have great respect, because he has contacted me in the past and
we have worked well together on this and other issues on issues
like this in the past, tell him I am disappointed he didn't
call me back yesterday, and I presume it is because Mr. Kelly
told him what a horse's patootie I was. And so you tell Mr.
Kelly also that. He is a former Marine and I don't want to
fight with him because he could probably whip me, but tell him
that he like everybody in the executive branch is answerable to
the Congress and our oversight responsibilities, and we need to
get along. OK? Thank you very much.
Now I will go on with my opening statement.
While I was chairman of the full Committee on Government
Reform I initiated an investigation into the illegal
kidnappings of American citizens to Saudi Arabia. There are
several facts regarding Saudi Arabian law and culture that make
these international child abduction cases noteworthy.
First, Saudi law gives Saudi men extraordinary power over
their wives and children. A Saudi man literally owns his wife
and children. As a result, the wife or child of a Saudi man may
not leave Saudi Arabia without his prior written permission.
There have been many cases in which adult female American
citizens have been unable to leave Saudi Arabia because they
have not been able to obtain the written permission of their
male guardian, regardless of their constitutionally guaranteed
rights as American citizens.
Second, Saudi Arabia is not a signatory nation to the Hague
Convention on the Civil Aspects of International Child
Abduction. The Hague Convention treaty puts into place general
guidelines regarding how to handle international child
abduction and international custody disputes. Accordingly,
there are no legal standards governing the return of kidnapped
children from Saudi Arabia, and there should be.
Our investigation from the last Congress led to numerous
hearings, several legislative proposals, and even a
congressional delegation to Riyadh, Saudi Arabia in August
2002.
Although it has been nearly a year since that visit, I will
never forget the tears on the faces of American women who
literally risked their lives to come and talk to us. They were
scared to death. We had women tell us that they were afraid
their husbands would kill them, beat them half to death, or
worse if they found out they talked to American Congressmen.
Women told me: Put us in a box with our kids and put us in the
belly of the plane, anything to get us out of here because of
what's going on. And those are the kinds of things that you
never forget, especially when you leave them behind and you
know there is not much you can do about it. And I won't forget,
also, how terrified they were they might face death or physical
torture if they were anywhere near the U.S. Embassy because of
their husbands worried about them trying to get away.
These women live in a constant state of fear, and it is
time that the American government does something about it. And
Ms. Harty is going to talk to us about that today, and so will
our witness who has been able to get out of Saudi Arabia.
Because of the attention that the issue of international
child abduction has received since we started this
investigation, we have seen some marked improvements in the way
that these situations are dealt with. Before, the custodial
American parents were given no hope that their sons and
daughters would ever be returned to them. Now we are starting
to see some light at the end of the tunnel, although we have
quite a ways to go before we completely emerge from the
darkness. And we had some people who had their children
kidnapped years ago, like my good friend back there, and they
would not fall under new rules and guidelines that have taken
place. And we are going to ask questions about them today and
how we can do something to allow them to visit the United
States and, if they choose to stay, stay here; if they choose
to go back to Saudi Arabia, to go back there.
Ms. Sarah Saga is here with us today and who until recently
was held in Saudi Arabia against her will since she was 5 years
old, and now she is 24. Just a month ago, she courageously
risked her life and fled to the U.S. consulate in Jeddah, Saudi
Arabia with her two children, Ibrahim and Hanin. Ibrahim is 5
years old and her daughter is Hanin, she is 3 years old.
After a 10-day stay in the U.S. consulate, Ms. Saga was
able to secure safe passage for herself back to the United
States to be with her mother, Ms. Debbie Dornier. Up until June
24th of this year, they had not seen each other for nearly 20
years. She was kidnapped, couldn't see her child for 20 years.
Think about that, if you have kids. Unfortunately, the reunion
was bittersweet for Ms. Saga who, in exchange for her freedom,
had to leave behind her two children in the custody of their
Saudi national father.
Ms. Maura Harty, the Assistant Secretary of Consular
Affairs for the Department of State, is also here with us
today. Both she and Secretary of State Colin Powell have been
working hard to bring back the American citizens who are being
held against their will. I had the privilege of talking to Ms.
Harty when she was about to be appointed to this position, with
her and Colin Powell, and she assured me that she would do
everything in her power to help bring American children back
and help with this problem. So far she has been working in that
direction, and we do appreciate that. She is here to update
this committee on how the Department of State is handling these
international child abduction cases.
Also in attendance is Mr. Stuart Verdery, the Assistant
Secretary of Policy for the Department of Homeland Security,
and he is here to observe our proceedings today, and we
appreciate that. The reason he is here is because we are going
to be talking about visas and what kind of pressure we can put
on Saudis and their extended families who are participants in
the kidnapping of American children and what we can do to put
pressure on them to bring these children back.
We are also kind of surprised but happy to have scheduled a
representative of the Saudi Embassy. Ms. Manal Radwan is
scheduled to talk with us about the Saudi policy on the
abductions of American citizens to Saudi Arabia. Up until this
point, we couldn't get the Saudi Embassy to respond or
participate, so we are glad that she is here today, and we will
listen with interest to her testimony and have questions for
her as well.
Ms. Radwan will hopefully explain why the Saudi Government
has not been more helpful in assisting the United States in
these cases for years and years and years and what steps they
plan to take to ensure the safe return of American citizens who
wish to leave Saudi Arabia. We are also very interested to talk
with her about the possibility of Saudi Arabia becoming a
signatory nation to the Hague Convention, and we think that
would be a step in the right direction to prove that the Saudi
Government wants to keep their commitment to resolving these
cases.
The solution is clear. It is imperative for the U.S.
Congress and our Department of State to work together to bring
the necessary diplomatic and legal pressure to bear that will
guarantee the safe return of these U.S. citizens who are being
held against their will.
It is also time for the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia to join the
21st century and finally become a signatory nation to the Hague
Convention. I believe that if we can take these two important
next steps, we will be on our way--a long way from the
conclusion of it, but we will be on our way to resolving many
of these heartbreaking international child abduction cases.
As many in the audience know now, this has been a high
profile issue in the media. Just this past 4th of July weekend,
both 60 Minutes and the John Walsh Show reran segments
showcasing the investigation. And I would like to end my
comments by showing a 2.5-minute excerpt from our previous
hearings which will set the stage for our hearing today,
because I think it says in 2.5 minutes what we're up against
and what these parents have to deal with. With that, if you
would roll the tape, we would appreciate it.
[Tape played.]
Mr. Burton. That gives you the flavor of the hearing today.
[The prepared statement of Hon. Dan Burton follows:]
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Mr. Burton. And before I go to our first witness, Ms.
Harty, Mrs. Maloney, do you have any comments you would like to
make?
Ms. Maloney. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I really want to
join many of my colleagues in congratulating you on your
leadership on this important issue, on holding numerous
hearings, on legislation that I have joined you on, and
particularly going to Saudi Arabia and meeting with these
families. I would just like to put my remarks in the record,
but I want to really particularly thank Sarah Saga and her
mother Debbie Dornier, who will be testifying today. And it is
very difficult to speak on personal tragedies such as those
that they have experienced. And I would like permission to
place in the record an account that was in my home paper
entitled ``Saudi Hell.'' And she is quoted as saying, 11I can
describe my life in one word, hell.'' And it goes on with the
story that she will tell us about today.
I really feel that we need to take stronger measures. We
need more than an assurance that they will sign the Hague
Treaty. Saudi Arabia should be a signatory, but also using the
tools that we have to deny visas to families that participate
in this type of cruel treatment and their families.
I would add, Mr. Chairman, that the new Millennium Account
which is moving forward, which is a good initiative, it will
strengthen our foreign aid policies and they have a set of
criteria, and I feel strongly that this could be part of the
criteria that we add to the new Millennium Challenge bill, and
that is how are women treated in these foreign countries before
they receive the consideration, whether it is aid or visas,
from the U.S. Government.
We do have the power to make these changes, and I feel that
you have worked hard in trying to negotiate agreements, and
they don't seem to be listening. So I really feel that I would
like to join you in stiffer legislative laws denying visas,
denying aid, possibly even sanctions if countries will not
release American citizens and that we need to really look at
the whole treatment of women within countries before we provide
the privileges that we provide through access to our own
country, through our aid, through our financial and political
and other programs that we place abroad.
But I congratulate you for your work on this. I request
permission to put my full lengthy statement in the record.
This is wrong. It should be changed. And I look forward to
this hearing. Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Hon. Carolyn B. Maloney
follows:]
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Mr. Burton. Thank you, Mrs. Maloney. And without objection,
your entire statement will be in the record.
Mr. Ose.
Mr. Ose. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have but a few remarks.
I note here that the title of this hearing is focused on Saudi
Arabia. But just for the record, Saudi Arabia is not the only
place where this kind of behavior exists affecting American
families. This is hopefully but the most recent of hearings;
and those other countries should also be subjected, if you
will, to the kind of scrutiny we are going to undertake today.
Mr. Burton. Thank you.
Ms. Harty, we are now ready to hear your testimony and
grill you. We are kidding. Just ask you some questions. Would
you please rise so you can be sworn?
[Witness sworn.]
Mr. Burton. Do you have an opening statement?
Ms. Harty. I do, sir.
Mr. Burton. Proceed.
STATEMENT OF MAURA HARTY, ASSISTANT SECRETARY, CONSULAR
AFFAIRS, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE
Ms. Harty. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the opportunity to
be here today to report on an issue that is one of the most
important matters before me and that engages me on a very
personal level. That is the protection of American children
abducted or wrongfully retained abroad by their noncustodial
parents, and specifically children abducted to or wrongfully
retained in Saudi Arabia.
Before anything else, Mr. Chairman, I want to say that the
U.S. Congress has been extremely helpful to the Department in
securing the return of abducted and wrongfully retained
children. You, Congressman Burton, and many others have backed
our efforts to recover children. You have raised cases in your
travels abroad where you have had access to the highest levels
of foreign leadership. Your willingness to do so demonstrates
convincingly to foreign governments that the United States is
totally committed to the return of our most vulnerable
citizens.
Since taking office last November, I have made two trips to
Saudi Arabia, both of them focused on the issue of
international parental child abduction and the protection of
American citizens. I will return to Saudi Arabia as often as
necessary to ensure continued progress. And we have made some
progress. Since January, seven children abducted to or
wrongfully retained in Saudi Arabia are back in the United
States. Three more are expected to return shortly. An American
mother and her five children, all residents of Saudi Arabia,
are also expected to return soon.
In keeping with Saudi Government commitments to us to
facilitate parental visits to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, one
mother visited her daughter this spring and others plan to do
so in the coming months. And also in keeping with Saudi
Government promises that American women will be allowed to
leave the Kingdom despite objections made by their male
guardians, one American woman was granted an exit permit and
departed Saudi Arabia last month; two other American women have
been granted exit permits and are free to leave Saudi Arabia
when they choose. A third is scheduled to receive a permit this
week and to depart shortly for the United States. Two more
American women have assurances that, should they wish to leave,
such permits will be granted immediately. We will certainly
followup on that should they wish to leave.
We meet on a regular basis with Saudi representatives here
in Washington and in Riyadh to review cases based on left
behind parents' requests and to seek systemic solutions. We
have made clear to the Government of Saudi Arabia that we will
not be satisfied with anything less than the children's return.
The Saudi Government has expressed its commitment to work
with us on this very important issue. We are now working to
develop common ground for a bilateral arrangement that could
help parents gain regular access to their children even as they
pursue the children's return simultaneously. With the Saudi
Government, we are exploring preventive measures that will help
avoid this tragedy in the future, including information and
other outreach efforts. We have posted on our Web site an
information sheet with the implications of entering into a
marriage with someone from a country such as Saudi Arabia where
Islamic Sharia law serves as the basis for family law.
Ambassador Jordan and our colleagues at Saudi posts have
worked with dedication and determination to assist American
parents and their children. I doubt that anyone in this room
does not know of the pain of one young American mother in Saudi
Arabia who sought and received refuge in our consulate in
Jeddah.
Ms. Saga's story illustrates the painful reality in these
cases and demonstrates how diligently we work to protect
Americans abroad. Unfortunately, it also displays the limits of
our ability to deliver what is always our goal, the ability of
the U.S. citizen parent to return to the United States with his
or her children.
In Ms. Saga's case, we provided her immediate and
unquestioned protection when she needed it and the basic
support she and her children needed in a safe place to make the
difficult decisions that ultimately were hers to make. We will
remain engaged on Ms. Saga's case and in the cases of all
American parents who need us in these terribly difficult
situations.
We have made progress, sir, but we recognize that there is
still very much more to be done. I want to assure you today
that we will never lose sight of the goal nor of the fact that
so long as one child is wrongfully retained or abducted abroad
our job is in fact incomplete.
As Assistant Secretary of State for Consular Affairs, the
protection of American citizens is my top priority bar none. I
give special emphasis to the protection of our children and
particularly those who are the victims of international
parental child abduction or wrongful retention. I appreciate
the opportunity, Congressman, to testify today, and I look
forward to answering your questions.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Harty follows:]
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Mr. Burton. Thank you, Madam Secretary. You said that there
were seven children returned?
Ms. Harty. Yes, sir.
Mr. Burton. Do you have the names of those children?
Ms. Harty. I do, sir. I checked this morning, actually, to
be sure and safe. I have them here, but we don't have Privacy
Act waivers for all of them.
Mr. Burton. So you don't want to read them out here?
Ms. Harty. I do not want to read them here now, sir, but I
am happy to give them to you right after this hearing if you
would like.
Mr. Burton. Well, let me ask you about some cases that we--
--
Ms. Harty. And if you would like, sir, I can actually go
through the circumstances of the cases without the names.
Mr. Burton. Well, we will get to that in a minute because I
am sure that the Saudis are trying to put as good a face on
this as they possibly can. And they may have done some things
that have been beneficial to some people, but I want to ask
about some cases that we asked them about when we were over
there that were not resolved.
And Pat Roush is in the audience today. She has children.
When we went over there, her children were sent to London--they
are adults now--with Saudi representatives as well as their
Saudi husbands. And after they were talked to by some of the
media and some people in the Embassy in London, they put on
their hijabs and sat in the back of the room and asked their
husbands what they should do. And so to say that they were free
to express their feelings when they were in London is
erroneous. I think they were under the control of those people.
And it was very disconcerting to me, because we went over there
in part to see those two ladies and they just seemed to go to
London. They hadn't been out of the country for years. They
went to London at the same time we went there on a vacation.
And that is when they went to the Embassy. So those are the
kind of things that have happened with the Saudis in the past
and that is why we have questions about their sincerity.
Let me ask you about Samiah Seramur. She had three
children, Safiah, Maha, and Faisal. They were abducted by her
husband. Maha is the only child that was able to escape with
the assistance of hired men last year, and she spoke to this
committee in I think our last hearing. What about her other
kids, the other kids?
Ms. Harty. As I understand it, sir, the parents are not
talking to one another right now. We tried when we were last in
Saudi Arabia to work to have the taking parent, the father,
reach out in some way. Each parent has a child right now.
Neither of those children is in a situation that is good for
them.
Mr. Burton. Well, let me just interrupt you. Maha was here
and I talked to her personally. There is no question. She said
she was living in hell over there, she was mistreated, and she
wanted to get out of there and she risked her life to do it and
it was on 60 Minutes. The whole thing was, so I mean it is all
documented. Her brother and sister, she was afraid to wake them
up because she was afraid all three of them would get caught
and she wouldn't be able to get away, and so she left them
behind. But she said both her brother and sister want to get
out of there, they want to come to America. They were abducted.
And what I am asking is, obviously the father is not talking
because he would not let the mother talk to the children at all
and he still won't. But to say that it is a 50/50 issue just
isn't the case.
Ms. Harty. I'm sorry, sir. If I implied it was a 50/50, it
is not.
Mr. Burton. Well, I don't want there to be any
misunderstanding. The young lady wanted to get away. She is
here. She is 17 years old, or 16 years old right now, and she
is tickled to death to be here.
Ms. Harty. Yes, sir.
Mr. Burton. And the other two want to get here. What about
them?
Ms. Harty. Sir, we are going to continue pressing the Saudi
Government on that case as in all other cases. We haven't had
success on that one yet, although what we try to do in so very
many of these cases is to seek a way for the parents at least
to communicate so that the children can speak to their parents.
Communication is never a bad thing. We are not even at that
point with this case. Yes, we are very frustrated by it, sir,
and not a day goes by that we don't think about these cases. It
is not a good situation, it is not ideal, and we will not stop
trying.
Mr. Burton. We are going to hear in the next panel, and I
hope you are still here to hear it, that the young lady who was
released from the Saudi Government, by the Saudi Government to
come to the United States said that her father would kill her
if he saw her. And I talked to the Ambassador today, he was
kind enough to come by. And I have great respect for the
Ambassador because I think he has done more than any previous
Ambassador to help this case. But there is still a lot to be
done. And he indicated that she went to a meeting before she
left with her father and her husband. Her father and her
husband weren't there; I think the Ambassador was misinformed.
She said she was terrified of her father that he might kill
her. He has a visa to come to the United States; he works for a
company that does business in the United States, and she is
afraid for her life even here today. And her husband, she
didn't want to talk to him but somebody at the Embassy
evidently made a call to her and then handed the phone to her
husband, and she was forced to talk to him. But we will get
into all that later.
So I just want to say that there is still some big, big
problems here.
Let me ask you about Debra Docekal. She was able to
establish contact with her children. She learned that both of
them want to return to the United States, but they are not able
to do so. Have you talked to anybody with that, in that family?
Ms. Harty. I'm sorry, sir. The last name again?
Mr. Burton. Debra Docekal. D-O-C-E-K-A-L.
Ms. Harty. I'm sorry, sir. I don't have information on that
case. I will have to get back to you.
Mr. Burton. OK. We will give you that one. How about
Michael Rives? His children Lilly and Sami were abducted.
Ms. Harty. Yes, sir. I know them. I have visited them,
actually. Well, one thing I would like to say about that case,
sir, is we are trying very, very hard. Part of the reason for
the visit to see the children was to ensure that they were at
least well, healthy, physically being well taken care of. And
while we were there, we had a very interesting--I had a very
interesting conversation with the taking parent's brother. His
visa has been taken away. We took his visa away as an aider and
abetter, as somebody who was supporting the ability of the
taking parent to have the children outside of the United
States. And it was the first time that I had met somebody who
actually felt the pinch of a new tool that Congress gave us.
And so it was a good moment and an opportunity to explain that
visa would never be forthcoming until those children came home.
We made that--I made that statement very clearly to him at that
time, to the taking parent as well. I understand that they
understand that now, and they have a decision to make. But that
is a pressure point that we used, we used well. We hope it will
bear fruit.
Mr. Burton. I think that is a step in the right direction.
Ms. Harty. Yes, sir.
Mr. Burton. We are introducing legislation that would
mandate that people in the extended family of the kidnapped
children would not be able to come to the United States until
that was changed, until the children were released.
Ms. Harty. If I might, sir, say something about that. We
were going to--in fact, I was going to raise that with you
today, that as part of our authorization bill for 2004 we
included a proposed amendment to that section of the
Immigration and Nationality Act 212(a)(10)(C) and we were
hoping to get your support on that so that--we would love your
support on that. It is a very useful tool. The more that we can
do, the more tools we have, the more pressure points that we
can find, the better. Actually, in the anteroom just before the
hearing we began to have that conversation with Ms. Saga and
Mrs. Dornier, and talk a little bit about that. It is a very,
very useful thing to have.
Mr. Burton. But it is mandated if there is a kidnapped
child, that the visas be revoked or not, they can't get a visa?
Ms. Harty. Not mandated per se, sir. It gives us the right
and ability to do it.
Mr. Burton. Gives the State Department the discretion?
Ms. Harty. Yeah. But want to use it. I'm here to tell you
we want to use it. There may be a case----
Mr. Burton. I believe you will, but your successors might
not.
Ms. Harty. The reason I say, there may be a case from time
to time where parents don't want us to take a particular step
one way or another because they might still be in conversation;
that might in fact be a step too far in a case where they may
reconcile at some point. And so the discretion to use it is
somewhat useful to us. But there is no way that I want to have
a tool out there and not use it if it is going to help us get
the job done.
Mr. Burton. OK. I have talked long enough here. Let me
yield to my colleagues. And I have some more questions for you
on these other families. I have a whole bunch of those that I
want to go through.
Ms. Watson.
Ms. Watson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I would like to
make an opening statement to frame my concerns.
I want to thank you, Mr. Chairman, not for just calling
this hearing, but for your consistent dedication to the issue.
Last time I checked, the year was 2003, and yet in Saudi Arabia
women are still treated as though they live in the Middle Ages.
Here in the American Press, we read about the most tragic
stories such as the fire at the girls school where girls were
trapped inside by religious police as the building burned
around them. Or the harrowing escapes of Dria Davis and Maha
Seramur from Saudi captivity. But the greater tragedy is the
systematic and profound discrimination and mistreatment women
suffer each day and every day in Saudi Arabia.
This is a tragedy and a shame for the Saudis. But the shame
for the United States is that we continue to foster a close
relationship with a country that not only abuses its own
citizens, but abuses American citizens as well. So, Mr.
Chairman, I want to thank you for your commitment to solving
this problem. And in the short time I have been here in
Congress, I have sat through a number of hearings about the
awful way American citizens have been treated in Saudi Arabia
and the Saudi Government's complicity in these crimes.
I have signed on to and written my own letters to the Saudi
and the American governments regarding this issue. So far, I
recall none of the responses I have received from either
government adequate. The Saudi Government in particular likes
to tell us that these women are there by choice. But as I have
said before, the reality is that in Saudi Arabia for women
choice simply does not exist.
I hope in the hearing with the panelists that we hear from
in our own government about what steps they plan to take to end
the kidnapping and mistreatment of Americans in Saudi Arabia
and to improve the lot of women throughout the Saudi society.
Our nations, the United States and Saudi Arabia, are bound
by shared strategic imperatives, and I don't question the value
of that relationship. But what concerns me are the moral
imperatives that are pressing on this relationship.
I would like to repeat a message I have sought to send
before to the Saudis, apparently in vain: We are not here to
lecture to Saudi Arabia, but we are here to send a clear
unmistakable message to the Saudi Government. No matter who is
in charge in Washington, DC, the American people cannot
tolerate a relationship that goes against the principles on
which our Nation is founded. If the Saudi Government does not
solve its problems with providing basic human rights to half of
its population, women, our strategic relationship will be in
serious danger.
So that is the context in which I will be raising issues
today. And I would like the panelist to explain to us what we
can do to assist in solving the problem. Now, there is a bill,
Mr. Chairman, that you do have. And if it is not complete, I
hope you can tell us what we need to do to give you the tools
that you need when you are dealing with this government, and I
am sure we will be happy to assist you. Thank you so much for
being here. And thank you, Mr. Chairman.
[The prepared statement of Hon. Diane E. Watson follows:]
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Mr. Burton. Do you have any questions you would like to ask
at this time, Ms. Watson?
Ms. Watson. Well, my question was incorporated in my
statement, my last statement. And that is, what can we do to
assist you? And is the bill that has been sponsored by the
Chair complete? If not, just let us know during the hearing
what we might do.
Ms. Harty. Well, I thank you very much for that. As I have
already shamelessly plunged into requests for things that might
be of assistance to us, the language that would expand section
212(a)(10)(C) of the Immigration and Nationality Act, would be
very, very, very useful to us. We would appreciate your support
on that, and I am actually quite certain that we have it, sir.
I would like to take a rain check on the second thing that
we are looking at now. It was in 1988 the International Child
Abduction Remedies Act was passed [ICARA], which served as the
implementing legislation for the Hague Convention, the Hague
Abduction Convention in the United States. We are coming up on
15 years of the anniversary of ICARA, and so what I am doing in
the early fall is pulling together a group of interested people
to discuss ICARA a little bit and see if there are any changes
in fact to that implementing legislation that might be useful.
So we would welcome input. And then in fact when we come up
with suggestions, if there are ways for change, I would like to
take a rain check on the offer of assistance now until we look
thoroughly at that and see if there are new things and new ways
that we can build on that.
A third thing that I would like to ask is, and that needs
no encouragement by your presence here today, and that is that
it is invaluable to us, as I alluded to in my opening
statement. Your participation in these cases is invaluable to
us. Your raising them with Ambassadors who you meet in this
town as well as on your foreign trips gives us an impetus and
an extra sense of unity as we go overseas and show that it is
the legislative and the executive branches that are as serious
as we can be about protecting our most vulnerable citizens. It
is very helpful as I have traveled to Saudi Arabia twice,
Syria, Lebanon, Guatemala, Mexico, next week we will go to
Austria, Sweden, and Germany, all discussing international
parental child abduction issues. When I can use your names,
when I can use your energy and your commitment as examples,
that it is not just Assistant Secretary Harty, it is not even
merely the State Department; it is the executive branch and it
is the legislative branch together that has an abiding issue
and an abiding interest in these issues.
To the degree that the chairman mentioned a little bit ago
that we are all appointed, certainly that is true. I am
appointed. But I am 23 years in the Foreign Service; I am a
public servant as well. And I think that what we do is a
privilege and an honor, and we are dedicated to leveraging
everybody's energies, every person of good will's energy to get
this job done.
Mr. Burton. It was not the intention of the Chair to
denigrate public service.
Ms. Harty. Oh, no, no. I was just trying to get it out
there.
Mr. Burton. What I was trying to explain to Mr. Armitage
and Mr. Kelly, not necessarily you because you are here, was to
explain that there has to be oversight.
Ms. Harty. Yes, sir.
Mr. Burton. And the elected officials are responsive to our
constituents. We run every 2 years, or every 6 years in the
Senate, and so we are supposed to keep track of what is going
on. We can't many times because there is so much going on.
Ms. Harty. Though it is helpful for us. Your interest in
these issues is very helpful to us.
Mr. Burton. Do you have any more questions?
Ms. Watson. Let me just probe a bit, and see if the tone of
your conversations with the Saudi Government at the State
Department level indicates that there could be a threat to our
relationships if they don't address these cases. I mean, what
do you do? What is the tone when you talk to the government?
Ms. Harty. I think the tone is always cordial, but the tone
is also very, very frank and businesslike. We have issues. We
are not going to stop discussing these issues. We have had some
success in some of--in making some progress, in that some of
the things that you both have mentioned that are so very
different from our own society's way of doing business they
have begun to address. For instance, the right of an adult
American citizen to leave the country if she wants to leave
regardless of whether her male sponsor or guardian allows it.
They have given us that as an assurance, that any American
adult woman who wants to leave will be given an exit visa even
without the guardian's permission. That is in direct response
to the many people who have made these representations to the
Saudis. And that starts with the President of the United States
when the Crown Prince visited this country. It goes to all of
the legislatures who have visited, who have made comments. It's
Secretary Powell on numerous occasions, it's Assistant
Secretary Bill Burns from the Middle East Bureau. It is me and
several trips there. It is working at our embassies. It is
constant. I do in fact call it a never ending conversation. And
some people see that as a negative description. I see it as
positive description of how in fact we are trying to get this
job done. We are simply not going to stop.
In addition to getting exit visas for American citizen
women who want to leave the country, we have also been assured
that women who might--parents who might want to go back to
visit a child who is wrongfully retained, even if a sponsor
will not or does not want them to go back, they are getting
those permissions and they are going to be allowed to go back
in. Some have already, and that will continue. Is it good
enough? No. And it is certainly no substitute for getting a
child home, and we say that. I say it as I am saying it to you
now. But I think access in the intervening time as we continue
to try and get children home is a very important thing for a
parent to be able to see their children. And so that is----
Ms. Watson. If you will yield for a second.
Ms. Harty. Sure. I'm sorry.
Ms. Watson. On that, apparently American women married to
Saudis are able to come to the Embassy and they can get a visa,
exit visa pretty automatically?
Ms. Harty. It is what the Saudis have told us now, and it
has been our experience in the last six cases.
Ms. Watson. OK. But is it a common practice that the
children from that union are not automatically able to leave
with their mothers?
Ms. Harty. You are right, ma'am. That is exactly the way it
is, and that is where our efforts are directed.
Ms. Watson. Well, tell me, how does the Saudi Government
see the children of that union?
Ms. Harty. The Saudi Government sees the children of a
union between a Saudi citizen and a U.S. citizen as a Saudi
citizen.
Ms. Watson. Even if the children were born in the States
while he was in school and then taken back?
Ms. Harty. Yes, ma'am.
Ms. Watson. And the children are born in the United States
and they are listed as American citizens, the Saudis interpret,
because the father is a Saudi citizen, just going to school,
that these children be Saudi citizens too?
Ms. Harty. Ma'am, in general, that is true. There may be a
case that I can't think of at the moment where that is not the
case. But in general, that is true. A Saudi father has Saudi
children.
Ms. Watson. What kind of legal standing do we have, does
the mother have, when living in Saudi Arabia, married in the
United States to a Saudi citizen, had the children there, then
went home?
Ms. Harty. Back to Saudi Arabia?
Ms. Watson. Back to Saudi Arabia, with the husband, went to
his home. What legal standing does she have in the Saudi
courts, in the American courts, and in the international
courts?
Ms. Harty. Well, the American courts, there is very little
attention paid to American court orders outside of the United
States, and in Saudi Arabia the Saudi courts would prevail.
Something that you asked in your opening statement that I
should have also spoken to is what else we can do, what else we
can try and do to let people--to stop these things from
happening. We have got a lot of information on our Internet
now. Our Web site gets 129 million hits a year. When you apply
for a passport to travel outside the United States, which she
would have to do even if she were going to Saudi Arabia, right
on page 2 it gives you the Web site, it gives you an emergency
phone number to call. If you were ever to use this, you would
see a consular information sheet on Saudi Arabia that talks
about family matters. It says a married woman residing with her
Saudi husband should be aware that she must have her husband's
permission to depart or have their children depart from Saudi
Arabia.
It goes on at some length. We have other pieces: Islamic
family law, Saudi Arabia and international parental child
abduction, a travel warning on Saudi Arabia, additional
information on our Office for Children's Issues.
Ms. Watson. Let me ask you this. Those papers are given to
the American female.
Ms. Harty. They're available on the Web site, ma'am. As a
matter of fact, we've got it on the Web site. We've got it in
the passport so you know where the Web site is.
Ms. Watson. I know. We will find that, you know, no one
reads----
Ms. Harty. But I have a new idea.
Ms. Watson. Well, let me just say this, and then you can
respond.
Ms. Harty. Sure.
Ms. Watson. No one reads the information on the airline
ticket.
Ms. Harty. I know. Unless you're really bored standing at
the counter, you don't read page 2 of your passport.
Ms. Watson. And I don't think they are reading the
information they pull from the Web site. So maybe your idea is
the same as mine. Would it be practical and effective to, when
that person is getting ready to go to Saudi Arabia, that
whoever is the consulate general or whoever is dealing with
them must read that paragraph to them, can be sure they
understand or have them sign off?
Ms. Harty. Actually, that's a great idea. Although we've
talked to the Saudis about it. I mentioned it in my opening
remarks. And we are talking about how we can share additional
information. Because, of course, a woman--an American citizen
woman going to Saudi Arabia wouldn't necessarily see an
American official except perhaps to get a passport; and, in
that case, she doesn't have to tell us why she's getting a
passport, just that she needs one. So the issue is whether or
not we can come to an arrangement with the Government of Saudi
Arabia so that when they issue visas perhaps that is a
recommendation we can make, and I'll certainly pursue that.
My idea was less creative, but I'm going to do it anyway.
And that is I sell about 7.2 million passports a year, and
maybe you won't read page 2 of the passport, but you'll open
the envelope when you get something from the passport agency
because you bought that. You're looking for that passport. So
we're going to put a little flyer on top of the passport
itself. Can't get you to open a book and read it. Maybe you'll
read the little flyer on top that calls your attention to the
Web site: travel.state.gov. We've got 129 million hits last
year. If I can get people to read that Web site, that will be a
very useful thing; and we will be incorporating that into the
mailings that we do for passports so that people have more of
an ability to know that there's more information out there for
them.
Ms. Watson. I am a strong believer in informed consent.
Ms. Harty. Yes, ma'am.
Ms. Watson. And some way we have to bring it to the
attention of the illiterate. You know, people just don't read.
I think that maybe we ought to put a step in between applying
and getting your passport, and that is that you need to sign
off here that you have read. And, that way, at least they sign
it. They've read the above.
You know, often we sign and we haven't read the above, but
it's on them. I just feel we need to give more information in
the beginning, in the initial step so people can think about
the choices they have and what they're getting ready to do.
Ms. Harty. An informed consumer really is all of our best--
the best protection for anybody.
Ms. Watson. Exactly.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Burton. Thank you, Ms. Watson.
I want to make sure before you leave you get a chance to
hear Sarah's comments.
Ms. Harty. Yes, sir.
Mr. Burton. I have some more questions which I'll probably
submit to you in writing, but there's a couple of other things
I'd like to ask you before we get to Sarah. Regarding Sarah
Saga's two children, are they considered American citizens?
And, if not, why not?
Ms. Harty. Sir, they're not American citizens right now
because Mrs. Saga doesn't fulfill the transmission requirements
for citizenship.
Mr. Burton. What are those requirements?
Ms. Harty. That she--an adult who wants to pass on
citizenship needs to have spent 5 years in the United States, 2
of those years after the age of 14.
Mr. Burton. Do you think that should be changed?
Ms. Harty. Well, sir, in--we talked about this with
Congress several years ago and so, in 2002, we passed new
legislation, the Child Citizenship Act--sorry--of 2000; and
what that does is remedy the situation to a degree in that
those children--the fact that they are not right now holders of
blue passports would have been irrelevant to our reaction had
we been able to get exit visas, get on the plane.
We will solve this the minute we get home, because the
Child Citizenship Act of 2000 gives us the ability to very,
very quickly naturalize them and make them U.S. citizens. We
worked hand in glove with the Congress on that. Happily look at
that again, but it's not an impediment to their coming to
America at all.
Mr. Burton. Well, that's comforting. It would be nice if we
could say that if a child is kidnapped and they have children
later that the citizenship rights would apply just as though
they were living in the United States.
Ms. Harty. The citizenship in these cases accrues through
the petition process and the fact that their grandparents--that
the parents of the--yeah, the grandparents can, in fact,
petition for them.
Mr. Burton. I just have a couple more things I want to ask
you real quickly.
Can you put up on the screen the first letter from Margaret
Scobey? I don't think she can see that.
Ms. Harty. Oh, I can't see that, sir.
Mr. Burton. OK. Can somebody get her a copy of that so she
can see that real quick?
Ms. Harty. My eyes just aren't that good, sir.
Mr. Burton. In fact, didn't we have an excerpt? That
excerpt was blown up. OK. Give her a copy of that.
Ms. Harty. Thank you.
Mr. Burton. Here's what that says. It says, we have
provided Sarah's passport to Saudi foreign affairs authorities
in Jeddah and asked for an exit permit and all exit formalities
to be arranged that will facilitate her departure from Saudi
Arabia. She also asks to bring her two children, Hanin and
Ibrahim to the United States to visit their mother--her mother,
who's never seen her grandchildren.
And then later, on June 19th, Sarah was in her room or
bedroom or whatever you want to call it; and she received
notification that there were three members of the Saudi
Government that were coming to see her. She had about 10
minutes notice. They came in and were with her for about 2
hours, along with three women from the consulate.
She ended up signing a document which says, I declare that
I am leaving Saudi Arabia alone without my Saudi national
children named in the document. In the event that I would like
to see my children, this matter would be left up to their
father's discretion, and this would take place in Saudi Arabia.
I sign this declaration out of my own free will, without any
coercion or any kind of pressure from either--any source or
person.
So she was actually giving her children away because, as
you know, the father doesn't have to let her see the children
according to that. So she knew that she made a horrible error
by signing that. So, the next day, she signed a document that
said, when I signed the declaration on June 19 it was not my
intention to relinquish any rights to which I was entitled. I
simply intended to reflect my understanding of what I had been
told by the Government of Saudi Arabia. I did not intend
permanently to waive my right at some later time to demand
custody of my children, nor did I intend to agree not to seek
the assistance of the Government of Saudia Arabia in ensuring
that I have access to my children.
What I can't understand--and maybe you've talked to some of
these people, and I did talk to the Ambassador a little bit
about this. I'm not sure he had the whole story, because some
of the things he told us was in error, and I don't think it was
intentional. I just think he didn't have the right information.
Why would those three women in the consulate, standing
there, relatively quiet, not tell her what she was giving away?
Because this young lady was under extreme pressure. She was
scared to death of the Saudi Government. She thought her father
would kill her if she left that place. She didn't feel she
could leave even if her children didn't go to America. She was
caught. Why would they not say this is something you ought to
think about for 24 hours before you sign it?
Ms. Harty. To start with the visit to the room, Mr.
Chairman, I understood that the reason for that was that they
thought it would be more comfortable than suggesting that she
leave the compound to visit them, that the Saudis originally
had invited her to their office and we said no.
Mr. Burton. I know. But she was given about 10 minutes.
Ms. Harty. For which I regret that.
Mr. Burton. And the second thing is nobody from our
consulate went in and said, now, look, they want to talk to you
about this. Here's the pros and cons of it. They just all came
in, six of them together.
Ms. Harty. Yes, it was the regional security officer, the
consular officer and the consulate and the consul general.
Sir, perhaps there is a miscommunication here because the
consul general believes that she recommended that the document
not be signed, that it wasn't.
Mr. Burton. Well, I talked to Sarah before the hearing, and
we'll let her speak for herself, but that was not the
impression that I had.
Ms. Harty. I'm uncomfortable putting--you know, since I
wasn't in the room at the time, but the consul general
certainly believes that her recommendation was the opposite,
that it not be signed at that moment. But I have to say that
what we also said at the time was there is no way that any such
a document signed in any such situation would ever have been
binding.
Mr. Burton. Well, but the point is, it may not be binding
as we view it. But the Saudi officials that were there took
that document with them and they could use that any way they
want for publicity purposes or anything, to make it look like
this gal gave up her kids of her own volition and she just
wanted to get the heck out of here and go to the United States
and she didn't care about her kids.
So what I can't understand and I--maybe you'll ask them
after you leave to explain why they didn't take some time. In
the future, if other women come there, it seems to me they
ought to sit down with them and say, here are your rights and
you ought to think about this and weigh the pros and cons
before you sign any document.
Because people like that are under extreme pressure. She
thought she'd be killed if she left.
And then, when I talked to the Ambassador, he said that she
did leave--before she caught her plane and she met with family
members, including her father and her husband. She said that is
not the case. The father wasn't there, and the husband wasn't
there. And she said if they were there she wouldn't have gone.
And so that needs to be made clear.
Also, there was a question about they said what kind of a
plan do you have? And she--you should go back to your family
and stay here until you have some kind of a plan to exercise to
get out of here. She indicated that was said to her as well.
Are you familiar with that?
Ms. Harty. No, sir, I'm not.
Mr. Burton. Well, maybe I should get her up here so you can
hear her whole story; and then you can respond to us later. Let
me just ask a couple more questions, and then we'll let you
listen to what she has to say.
Michael Rives, we talked about him just a minute ago--and
I'll rush through these. His wife was not even a Saudi, but her
father was connected to the Saudi Government so he was able to
go down there and use the Saudi Government as a shield to keep
those kids over there. So there ought to be something we can do
to get those kids back.
Ms. Harty. Oh, sir, I regret that we haven't had success
yet. I have been very aggressive on that case.
Mr. Burton. Well, that's one that ought to be--well, they
ought to all be pursued.
Maureen Dabbagh, she married a Syrian national who abducted
their daughter Nadia to Syria; and currently she's suspected of
being held against her will in Saudi Arabia. She received
custody of her children from both United States and Syrian
courts.
Ms. Harty. I do know a little bit more about that case.
What I don't know, regretably, is whether or not the Privacy
Act waiver has been signed for me to tell you a little bit more
about that.
Mr. Burton. Well, this won't be the end of all these; and
if you could get us in writing----
Ms. Harty. I'd be happy to, sir. I don't want to betray
somebody's--there's a personal situation in each of these
cases, and I don't want to betray that. I also don't want to
not be cooperative with you.
Mr. Burton. Well, we'll look at it privately; and we'll
discuss that case.
Joanna Stephenson Tonetti. She married a Saudi national,
had three children: Rosemary, Sarah and Abdul Aziz.
Ms. Harty. Yes, I met with those children, too. They're
gorgeous. They're lovely children. We are also trying very hard
in that one. Several other senators are involved in that case.
They have been for a long time. Both parents in communication
trying to work through----
Mr. Burton. Well, now don't make it look too good. Because
he came to the United States. He is from Terre Haute, IN. He
was ordered by the court not to take the children out of the
country.
Ms. Harty. No, I don't mean to make it look----
Mr. Burton. This is important. He was ordered not to take
the children out of the country, and their passports were held.
The court contacted the Saudi Embassy here in Washington, said
the children are not to be taken out of the country. The Saudi
Embassy issued new passports to the children, they were
kidnapped and taken to Saudi Arabia, and she hasn't seen them
since. So he's not cooperating. He kidnapped the kids against a
court order in the United States.
Ms. Harty. No, no. I don't think I said they were
cooperating. I said they are talking to each other, which is a
good thing because there are some things that he wants that may
be able--that may break a logjam here. We have some hope in
that case. We really genuinely have some hope.
Mr. Burton. That he will give the kids back to the United
States.
Ms. Harty. Yes, sir.
Mr. Burton. Well, I want to follow that case very closely.
Margaret McClain. She had one daughter, Heidi, who was
abducted in 1997. Recently, she's been able to visit her child
in Saudi Arabia, but she had custody. Are you familiar with
that case?
Ms. Harty. I am in fact. I met with Mr. Al-Omary as part of
the effort to get him to agree to allow her access for a visit.
I met with the Governor of the eastern province as well to make
sure that this got done. That visit took place not so very long
ago. It's not a replacement for--access is not a replacement
for getting the child home. But we at least were able to get
Mrs. McClain a chance to see her daughter, and we are
continuing to push and push and push on that case.
Mr. Burton. Well, that's another reason why we ought to use
pressure like withholding visas for the extended families,
because that was a kidnapping case. It was violation of U.S.
law. If he comes backs here, he ought to be arrested and
prosecuted. So to say that she's been allowed to see her
child--I mean, my gosh, that child's thousands of miles away.
It's not like you can go over on a Sunday afternoon.
Ms. Harty. Yes. It is not a replacement for getting a child
home, but access is so important.
Mr. Burton. OK. And, finally, Pat Roush, who's been with
us. She talked to us today, and she said, you know, she watched
this young lady come back to the States and her mother visit
her, meet her at the airport and hug each other and things. She
said she's been waiting on that for 20 years. Her children were
taken away from her.
I hope that we don't forgot those cases where the children
are now adults. They ought to have the opportunity to go to a
neutral country or to the United States, meet with the mother
and without any pressure from anybody else make a decision on
whether they want to stay in Saudi Arabia or stay in the United
States.
Ms. Roush has told us in witnessing before the committee
that all she wants is for her two daughters to come over
without any strings attached to them. And if they decide they
want to go back after they come over, fine, but if they decide
they want to stay in America--they're American citizens. They
ought to have the right to stay.
I believe personally that they are under coercion and that
they were coerced when they were in London when they took them
away from Saudi Arabia while I was there with the delegation,
and I think it was purposeful to make it look like they were
trying when they weren't. So that's another case I hope you'll
look at, even though that's an older one.
Ms. Harty. Oh, sir, there are few things I'd like more than
to see that happen, so that those conversations could be held.
Rest assured that I have raised it on both trips. I will never
go to Saudi Arabia and not raise it.
Mr. Burton. OK, well, the seven cases that you said where
children have been released I'll talk to you later and you can
give us copies of those, because I am not aware of those, and
they are not the ones that we were asking about when I was in
Saudi Arabia.
Ms. Harty. No, but three of them I think we--I may have
called you on, sir, or perhaps a member of your staff, the
first three. But there's several--with lightning rapidity,
several others have occurred.
Mr. Burton. Well, we'll talk about that. And I hope you'll
listen to what Sarah has to say, because it was indicated by
Prince Saud to me that any woman who wants to leave can leave.
Once you hear the whole story of this lady that was at the
Embassy with Sarah and how there was pressure put on them and
their families to keep them from leaving anyhow I think that'll
give you a different picture. Because Prince Saud may say that
they're trying, but there were government officials that said,
you know, cut them off at the airport. Don't give them
anything. Leave them high and dry. And there was pressure being
brought to bear to force them to change their minds.
Ms. Harty. You're talking about the other family.
Mr. Burton. I'm talking about the other family as well as
Sarah, and we'll let her testify about that.
Ms. Harty. We have been in touch with her since she went
back. So far, we have assured her that we will continue to be
in contact with her, and she has been able to be in contact
with us.
Mr. Burton. Well, we'll let Sarah tell you what this lady
said to her when they were together in the Embassy, because I
don't think that whole story has come out.
With that, we appreciate you being here; and we will be
sending a tape and--with questions from the hearing and with
your permission we'd like to have you respond.
Ms. Harty. Absolutely. Thank you, sir, very much.
Mr. Burton. Thank you, Ms. Harty; and please take our
message back to the Secretary, Mr. Kelly, will you?
Ms. Harty. Rest assured, sir.
Mr. Burton. Thanks a lot. Appreciate that.
We'd like Sarah and her mother to come forward now. Where
are they? Oh, there they are. Right there.
Sarah, would you and your mother come up to the table?
Oh, and Ms. Radwan from the Saudi Embassy, are you here? Is
Ms. Radwan from the Saudi Embassy here? Ms. Radwan from the
Saudi Embassy, are you here? Is anybody from the Saudi Embassy
here?
Well, they said they were going to be here, and they sent
us a statement. I guess they don't want to be questioned.
Doesn't surprise me much.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Radwan follows:]
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Mr. Burton. Ms. Saga and Ms. Dornier, would you please
stand to be sworn.
[Witnesses sworn.]
Mr. Burton. Ms. Saga, you and I talked earlier, and you had
a prepared statement, but you said you'd rather just answer
questions. So what I'd like to do is I would like for you to
start at the beginning and tell us when you decided to leave
and why you decided to leave. Tell us about your father and
your husband, the kind of problems you had, physical abuse and
all that. And then tell us what happened when you got to the
Embassy.
Just go through your whole story. And you don't have to
read that. You can just tell it in your own words. We'll put
your official statement in the record OK?
[The prepared statement of Ms. Saga follows:]
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[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9969.035
STATEMENT OF SARAH SAGA, AMERICAN CITIZEN ABDUCTED TO SAUDI
ARABIA IN 1986
Ms. Saga. Well, first----
Mr. Burton. Pull the mic real close. You have a very soft
voice. We want to make sure we hear everything you have to say.
Ms. Saga. First, I want to say thank you to you and to all
the people who helped----
Mr. Burton. OK. Pull the mic a little closer because your
voice is very soft. We want to make sure we hear everything.
Ms. Saga. I wanted to say thank you, and I'm so thankful to
be here today. I am so proud that I am an American citizen and
that I had the right to come here and say my words.
What I've been through was hard. As you know, I was taken
by my father from here when I was 5 years old, and I was cut
away from my mom. I wasn't even permitted to hold a picture of
her. And no calls. If they could even pull my memories away,
they would have done that. Only my family members--some of my
family members, who they loved my mom very much, would talk
about her. But as long as I lived with my father I couldn't
communicate with my mom or even try to communicate with her.
My father married twice, and he used all kinds of abuse. He
beat me. I was locked in my room for 2 years and not even being
allowed to open the curtains.
Mr. Burton. How many years?
Ms. Saga. Two years.
Mr. Burton. Two years?
Ms. Saga. And my stepmothers also was helping him in that.
I was starved. I was held--my father grabbed my head and just
slammed my head in the wall because I was talking to the phone
to someone I wasn't supposed to. My stepmother's family, her
brothers and sister used to put foul-smelling things in my bed,
and they would pour some medicines upon my study books, and I
was supposed to clean up what they did to me.
I wasn't allowed to even wash my clothes in the washing
machine. I don't know why. Maybe--I don't know why.
One day I took a picture from my grandma of my mom, and my
stepmother discovered that I was holding the picture, so she
wouldn't talk to me, she wouldn't let me go to the kitchen or
eat or get out of my room. And at the end I had to kneel down
and kiss her feet to just let me eat. So I was dreaming of the
day, which I can come here to my loving family, to my mom, just
to live a normal life as any woman, any human being.
My father was so ruthless and cruel to me. He used to beat
me for just foolish things.
One day he--I had low marks in school, and he beat me with
a stick. And I went to school with my hands bruised with all
colors, blue and purple, and I couldn't even close my hands.
And I was holding my hands in the desk, and the teacher thought
that I was playing with something or writing something down,
and she said, take your hands out of the desks, and I said
please don't make me do this, I can't. And so my friend beside
me told her that she has been beaten by her father. And so I
took my hands out, and she was shocked. She almost screamed
when she saw the sight.
During those years I've reached a stage or I've reached the
point that I would want to get rid of my life because of all of
the suffer I was going through and all the bad things I was
going through. I had no friend, no one, no family.
Also, my father had some problems with my family, my
grandparents and my aunts and my uncles, so he wouldn't go even
there. So I had nobody to talk to, to tell what I was going
through.
Mr. Burton. Why don't you tell us, Sarah, about how you met
your husband and how you got married and then you had children
and then how you decided to leave.
Ms. Saga. OK. When I was 18 years old, my husband and
another man proposed for my hand just like the original way of
marriage over there. His sister saw me in the school, and then
she told him about me, so he proposed. By that time, I was
locked in my room and--for 2 years, and in some sense I was so
happy to get out of what I was in from that home and to try to
begin a new life, which I was hoping to be nice. But during the
engagement days I couldn't make myself like that man or I
didn't like him. And I tried to talk to my father. Please, I
don't want this man. Don't make me marry him. So he wouldn't
listen to me.
And I tried with all of my family members. But they had no
power because the word is for my father to say yes or no.
On the night of my wedding I tried my best to talk to my
family, to do something to prevent this marriage, but I
couldn't. So in the morning, I told him that I don't want him,
and he called my father and his father, and they both tried to
talk me into completing this thing, and they didn't want me to
get a divorce. And my father said you're young and you don't
know life. You'll get used to him. And so I couldn't prevent
that from happening.
After a year of my marriage, I had my son; and after
another year I had my daughter. And when I had my daughter, it
was like she did awaken some things in me that was there but I
couldn't feel it because at that time I was a mother.
And for my luck that was the time that the Internet entered
Saudi Arabia, and so I tried to talk to my uncle, what can I do
to search for my mom? And so I went to Yahoo Web site, and I
wrote down my mom's name. And then I couldn't get her number,
but then I wrote my family, my mom's family's name.
And I got my grandma's number. And I knew that she lived in
her own house, she's not moving, and so I called her. And the
answering machine answered, and so I left a message saying that
my name is Sarah, I'm looking for my mom and I hope that I can
still call you grandma. And so I called the next day and she
was my grandma, and I was so happy. We were all happy and
crying. And then we exchanged numbers and e-mails and we kept
talking to each other for 3 years.
At that time I was trying--since I talked to my mom, I was
trying to get my husband to take me to anywhere so I can see my
mom. First I pleaded with him to take me to America so I can
see mom. But after a short while he was saying no all the time.
He wouldn't take me anywhere. And he was referring that to
money problems. He didn't have enough money to take me. And so
one time my mom offered that she will pay everything for us to
go to France so we can see each other. But he also refused. And
I think that my father had some influence on him. He was
talking to him and because he was acting like as if he was
thinking the same way my father does.
And so during those 3 years I tried every way possible for
me to convince him to take me to my mom. And 1 day we were
arguing about that, and he said, why do you want to see your
mom? I don't understand this relationship between you. And I
said, I haven't seen her in 18 years and you're asking me why I
want to see my mom? And so I knew that from the beginning he
wasn't going to help.
So then I decided that I have to do something because he
was also beginning to be very verbally abusive with me and
physically abusive with the children, and I knew that the only
way I can be safe and free is to come with my children here to
America. So I began planning with my mom for a safe way to get
out of Saudi Arabia. It was very dangerous, and I was so
afraid, and I had to be secretive. Nobody knows. And I was
losing my weight and my hair and I was suffering skin problems
and I tried to be as normal as I can.
And then when the chance came for me to go to my
grandparents home I went there. And I pleaded with him to leave
me for one night because my grandpa was sick. And so I stayed
there and at 5 a.m. I woke up, woke up the children, I took a
taxi and we went to the consulate. When we arrived there I went
through the checking in and everything, and then I stayed in
the lobby for a long time, probably 2 or 3 hours until somebody
came to talk to me. And they were asking me, what's your case?
What do you want? And then Lauren came, and she also asked me,
why are you here? And then we went to the consulate general's
office, and they tried talking me into going back to my family.
Mr. Burton. What did they say to you? I think this is very
important, because we want the State Department and everybody
to understand what a woman goes through when that happens.
Ms. Saga. At the beginning, they told me that if you can go
to your family, go now, and we will help you, we will stay in
touch with you. And I told them that I can't go back because if
my father ever knew what I've done, he would kill me
mercilessly. And they told me that we haven't known anything
about you before, so we don't have a file about you. If you had
called us before, we could have helped.
And, of course, it was too late for me to go back. I
couldn't go back. But I was in so much fear and pain. And I
called my mom, and I said, what can I do? I was afraid and I
was so desperate to get out of that country. So I refused to
go.
And they called the woman who was in the consulate over
there to--as if to convince me to--you know, look, this is a
woman who has been here 2 weeks, and she couldn't do anything,
so you'd better go back because we can't do anything for you
and your children.
Mr. Burton. There was another woman there that had been
there 2 weeks and they said they couldn't do anything for you
and your children and for you to go back.
Ms. Saga. Yeah. Yeah. They were--she told me, the other
woman, that the people at the consulate tried to find someone
who was helping that woman, and they couldn't. And so that
woman was convinced that nobody was helping her and she was
helpless in the consulate. She has to--in the end, she was so
afraid. She had to go back to her husband. And with her
children. And although their children, I mean, her children
were with American passports, she was trying to tell me that,
look, my children have passports and they couldn't go, so my
children are--they don't have passports, so she was trying to
tell me----
Mr. Burton. OK. So--I'm sorry to interrupt you. But this
woman had passports for her children?
Ms. Saga. Yeah.
Mr. Burton. And did she have passports for herself, too.
Ms. Saga. Yeah.
Mr. Burton. So she had passports to leave the country and
she's an American citizen and the consulate wouldn't do
anything.
Ms. Saga. No. No.
Mr. Burton. And so she went back.
Ms. Saga. She went back.
Mr. Burton. Do you know what happened to her when she went
back?
Ms. Saga. I don't know what happened after she went there,
but the reason she went back is because her husband has a--he
had a paper saying that--from a very high position man that if
she didn't hand him back the children he will throw her in
jail, and she would never see the children again.
Mr. Burton. So she had to go back because of that threat?
Ms. Saga. Yeah. Yeah.
Mr. Burton. OK. Well, go on and tell us what happened to
you then.
Ms. Saga. And so I stayed at the consulate, and I had to--
at the first day I went there, because we were sharing the room
with this woman, she had three children and I have two children
and the room was--there was two single beds in the room. So
they told me that I have to have some money because I have to
buy sleeping bags and I have to buy food for myself and my
kids; and, of course, I didn't have money because I ran away. I
didn't have anything with me. And so I called my mom, and she
transferred some money for me there.
Mr. Burton. Why don't you pick up when they started talking
to you about what you should do when you said you wanted to
leave the country and just tell us what happened when the
people came to visit you. Just go into the details of that.
Ms. Saga. From the beginning they were convincing me that
it's OK for you to go, but your children can never go unless
their father gives the permission for them to travel with me. I
actually went there with the belief that somebody would help
me--I mean, from the government--to take my children with me
safely to America. And when I saw that the consulate people
were not helping, they just kept telling me that they can't do
anything for the children. They can help me go out, but they
can't help the children. I mean, help me take the children.
And Margaret Scobey went to Prince Saud Al Faisal, and he
said also that I can go, but the children cannot go unless
their father give them permission. So we were having meetings.
Every day from 7 a.m. I would wake up, and I would go to the
meetings with my children. And every day they would keep saying
that what do you want to do? What's your plan? And they would
keep telling me again and again that I can't take the children.
And so 1 day they wanted me to go to the Saudi ministry--
Ministry of Foreign Affairs and in the last minute I had
communication with someone in the family who told me that the
ministry, the Saudi ministry was planning to let my husband
come to their office over there in a weekend day where there
was nobody but the people who were going to talk to me. And in
the last minute, I refused to go because I was so afraid that
my husband would--if I was out of the consulate, he could do
anything. He could take the children, he could let the
religious police catch me or take me to jail. So I didn't go.
And so the next morning--or the same day, the consulate
general called me before those Saudi officials came, 10 minutes
before they came and from my----
Mr. Burton. So you had no notification that the Saudis were
coming to visit you until just 10 minutes before.
Ms. Saga. No. I had no idea that they were coming to the
consulate and into my room. So, from my surprise, they knocked
on the door and I saw three men with three women from the
consulate knocking at my door. And they walked inside and they
started--I mean, the Saudi officials talking me into the same
thing. We've talked to your husband, and you can't take the
children with you.
And I'm sorry. I forget to say that day, before the men
came, I had a phone call and the operator there said that the
consulate general wants to talk to you. And so I said OK. And
when I got the line, it was my husband talking from the
consulate general's cell phone. And so I was trying to avoid
talking to him.
Mr. Burton. You didn't want to talk to your husband, but
the consulate general----
Ms. Saga. No, I didn't want to talk to anybody.
Mr. Burton [continuing]. Called you and handed the phone to
him?
Ms. Saga. Yes.
Mr. Burton. OK.
Ms. Saga. And so I was forced to talk to him. And he told
me that we can go to some kind of agreement about the children,
but--and he told me later that the Saudi officials told him
that if your wife ever took your children out of Saudi Arabia
you will never see them again. And so they were making sure
that he knows that there is a possibility of him not seeing the
children, which I wasn't going to do that. I was going to find
something, a visitation or something between us to see the
children.
Other thing is that he told me that the Saudi officials
told him--one of the Saudi men over at the ministry told him
that, take your--just talk sweetly to your wife, give her
whatever she wants, take the children, and then just leave her
to deal with her own problems at the airport. And so I was so
angry to know that, you know, they would go to such extreme to
not let me take the children with me.
So when the Saudi men came they started talking about, you
know, that we can't let the children go, and there is no chance
for them to go unless their father said yes. And so, when I--
and they showed me a paper, which I thought that the consulate
people, the consulate officials who--they were the one who
wrote the paper.
Mr. Burton. The document they put in front of you, you
thought was written by the consulate people.
Ms. Saga. Yes.
Mr. Burton. Did they say anything to you about the paper?
Is the paper where--Ms. Saga, this is the paper where you
agreed to give up your children and not to see them unless the
father said it was all right?
Ms. Saga. Yes, the paper said that I am giving--by signing
that paper I am giving up the custody of my children in Saudi
Arabia. And when I signed the paper, I immediately knew that I
shouldn't do that.
Mr. Burton. Did you get any advice from the consulate
people? Did they say anything at all to you like you ought to
think about this or----
Ms. Saga. No. They said this is your decision, and we can't
force you into doing anything. And that's it.
Mr. Burton. But you didn't have much time to think about
it.
Ms. Saga. No. And so I was so afraid, and I called my
mother and told her what happened. And then the second day--I
mean, the next day they wrote another document which says that
by signing that paper I'm not giving up the custody of my
children or--and so the whole issue was about the custody.
There was no help for me to take the children out. They didn't
even ask about my children. They said in the paper that I was
asking for the children, yes. But they weren't asking for their
exit.
After that, I--my husband started calling me at the
consulate, and he said, look I am not going to--I will do
anything to let you protect the children. I'm not going to let
you--I'm not going to repeat what your father did to you.
And so I told him that I can't trust his word. So I asked
him to write a paper in front of the Saudi ministry and the
American consulate that he would never do such a thing, I mean,
cut my children of me and he would help to let me visit them,
see them anywhere outside of the United States and outside of
Saudi Arabia. So he said OK, and he signed the papers.
But I've been here for 2 weeks, and I can't talk to my
children. The only thing he is doing is he's letting me listen
to their voices on the phone. But I can't talk to them because
he can't handle their crying. And I tried to call his sister,
because he's leaving the kids with his sister. I tried to call
her, and I asked her to let me talk to the children, but she
said I'm not going to let you talk to them, and--because I have
enough children and I'm not going to--I'm not going to let you
talk to them until they are with their father when he marries
again.
And so that paper, in my thinking, was useless because he
is already cutting my children from me.
Mr. Burton. Let me--Ms. Harty, when she testified, said
earlier that one of the women from the consulate, when they
were in there with the three Saudi men, advised you not to sign
that paper. Did any of them say, don't sign the paper?
Ms. Saga. No.
Mr. Burton. All they said was what?
Ms. Saga. That this is your choice. If you want to sign,
sign. If you don't want, this is up to you.
Mr. Burton. But they didn't advise you to wait or to look
at it or think about it or----
Ms. Saga. No.
Mr. Burton. Nothing. And they didn't say, don't sign it.
Ms. Saga. No.
Mr. Burton. Did they advise you to sign the paper the next
day? Did they come up with the paper the next day?
Ms. Saga. They gave me the paper and said, look, this is
something that we can correct the other paper with.
Mr. Burton. Did they bring that paper in without you asking
for it?
Ms. Saga. Yeah.
Mr. Burton. In other words, they just brought it in and
said, this will correct what happened yesterday.
Ms. Saga. Yeah. Because I talked to the consular general
and I said, look, I don't want that paper to be--you know, if
you can just tear the paper or do anything, I made a mistake by
signing that paper, so, please, I want to--I don't want that
paper to be--that's not the thing I want.
Mr. Burton. And so they brought the paper in later after
that.
Ms. Saga. Yes.
Mr. Burton. OK. Now, I know this is just your opinion, or
maybe you could just tell us, what do you think the U.S.
consulate office and our consulars over there could have done
to help you that they didn't do?
Ms. Saga. Well, what I think is at least they could have
asked for my children with the Saudis, because they were
talking with the Saudis all the time. And they didn't--you
know, I didn't feel like they were cooperating in my children's
case.
Mr. Burton. They wouldn't help you get your children. They
said they would help you get out, but they didn't----
Ms. Saga. Yes, for me it was OK to get out. But for my
children it was hard for them to do that. And so they were
leaving the thing up to my husband.
Mr. Burton. OK. Ms. Watson, do you have any questions you'd
like to ask?
Ms. Watson. When the paper was in front of you, did they
explain to you at all what was on that paper and what you would
be committing to?
Ms. Saga. They only gave me the paper to read. And they
said, you read the paper, and they were telling me that's what
they came--I mean, that's what they thought, it is something
which is going to help in my case.
Ms. Watson. Did at any time they talk about you as an
American citizen and what your rights as an American citizen
are?
Ms. Saga. They told me that I can have an American
passport, but I was told also that I have to have an exit
permission from the Saudi ministry, even if I am an American.
So either--both ways, I mean, if I went out on my Saudi
nationality or my American nationality I would have to have the
permission of the Saudi Government. That's what they told me.
Ms. Watson. Were they talking about a visa when they talked
about an exit permit?
Ms. Saga. I don't remember the name, but it was something
like a visa, permission for me to get out of Saudi Arabia.
Ms. Watson. What I'm getting to, I want to know, did the
consular from the American Embassy explain to you your rights
and explain to you your rights in connection with the children
whose father was Saudi Arabian? I'm trying to get to that kind
of conversation.
Ms. Saga. Do you mean my rights in going out of Saudi
Arabia?
Ms. Watson. And your children's.
Ms. Saga. And my children. Well, as I said, they kept
telling me that I can go out as American alone, but if I want
to take my children, they have--because they have no American
passports, so they would have to have their father's permission
going out of the country. And I was told also that even if I'm
an American citizen I have to have the government's permission
to get out.
Ms. Watson. When you initially took your children and went
to the consulate or the Embassy, were you aware of what was
required of you? Did you have any idea what was required of you
and the children to leave Saudi Arabia?
Ms. Saga. Actually, I knew it wasn't going to be easy,
because there is--the people there are stubborn. They won't let
me easily go out. But I hoped by talking to the American people
here and to the media and by the help of the government I would
take my children with me.
Ms. Watson. What I'm really getting to in asking these
questions is the procedure inside the Embassy. I was a former
Ambassador, too, and I know what happened in my Embassy. I
think it's incumbent on the Embassy staff, the consulars that
deal with passports and visas, to walk you through your legal
steps; and I don't know if I've heard you say that they walked
you through it.
So you had an understanding, I heard you say, before you
came you knew it wouldn't be easy, it would be difficult
because the people were so stubborn. But I think the consular
should have explained to you legally so that you would
understand what you were up against and walk you through it. So
I can't quite make out if you knew exactly once you got there
what your legal rights were and were not and how they could
help and could not help.
Ms. Saga. Nobody at all talked to me about my legal rights.
And all that they did, they gave me the application for the
passport and I filled that application. That's all. I--no one
ever spoke to me about my legal rights and what I should do and
what I should do because I wasn't familiar with the American
law. I lived there all my life.
Ms. Watson. I think your case is probably not unusual in
countries like that.
That's the reason why I made my statement, Mr. Chairman,
because I was trying to put it in that framework. It's
difficult for women in many of these countries, not only in the
Middle East but Southeast Asia, down the Pacific; and I think
there's something that we need to do in terms of our State
Department process wherever we have an Embassy and someone
looks for refuge there.
Particularly in your case and other American women like
you, there should be a procedure--and I want you to respond--
that will let you know exactly what your rights are, rather
than encouraging you to go back into a situation that would put
you at high risk. And we know the risk.
I thank the chairman--thank you for holding these hearings.
Because we have heard from people just like yourself, the
actual facts to their captivity. I like to call it captivity.
But, anyway, we might be able to, through legislation,
develop a procedure so you will know exactly what you're going
into when you leave to go--and if you go into a consulate, if
you go into an Embassy, what to expect. They should walk you
through so you will know your legal rights and your children's
rights and the rights of the person whose country you're in.
That would be helpful to you so when you call your mother you
can say, look, I can't get the kids out, but I can get out and
maybe we can fight in the courts, the international courts, to
get our children.
But would that be helpful? Is that a step that we need to
take?
Ms. Saga. Yeah. Actually, it would be helpful, but the case
in Saudi Arabia is the power of men over there.
Ms. Watson. Exactly.
Ms. Saga. Even if the woman knew that when she goes to the
consulate or an Embassy she should do this and this and this,
but--and she couldn't do this and this, but the problem is, if
there is anything, I mean, to help the women over there,
because I think this is the country where a lot of women are
unable to come forward and say that I want to get out of here.
And if there is anything which can help those women, I mean, to
make the power of those men less on those poor women, I would
say that would be a great thing to do.
Ms. Watson. Thank you. It is broader and bigger than just
your case. It is the case of all womankind in these developing
or underdeveloped countries and their treatment of women. It is
a struggle for women's rights.
Ms. Saga. Yes.
Ms. Watson. Thank you so much for your testimony, and thank
you so much for your responses.
Mr. Burton. Let me just add--thank you, Ms. Watson.
Let me just ask a couple more questions, and then I will
yield to Mr. Ose in case he has any questions since he's
returned.
Do you still fear your father? As I understand, he has a
visa to come to the United States and works for, was it, a U.S.
company?
Ms. Saga. He lived here and studied here. He married my
mother. So he have--he has a green card, so he can come freely
here.
Mr. Burton. He has a company that has business here in the
United States?
Ms. Saga. Yes. He works for Aramco.
Mr. Burton. Aramco?
Ms. Saga. Aramco.
Mr. Burton. Does he travel back and forth to the United
States?
Ms. Saga. I don't know, really. He have trouble several
times, but he doesn't tell.
Mr. Burton. But you still have concerns about your safety?
Ms. Saga. Yes.
Mr. Burton. Do you think that he would hurt you if he had a
chance?
Ms. Saga. Yes.
Mr. Burton. Now I know you can't speak from experience or
from personal knowledge, but do you think there is a lot of
women--American women over in Saudi Arabia that would like to
leave there that are suffering from the same kind of problems
you do?
Ms. Saga. Yes. Yes.
Mr. Burton. Did you know of any others that you think would
like to leave if they could?
Ms. Saga. Well----
Mr. Burton. You don't have to give their names or anything.
Ms. Saga. No, actually, personally, I didn't know someone
who wants to get out. But I know some women--American women
over there which have--they had problems, divorce problems and
problems with the children, and I've heard stories about them.
And from the--I think most of the families there have the same
story: A man goes to the USA, and he marries a woman and have
children, and then the problem begins.
Mr. Burton. He, in effect, owns them.
Ms. Saga. Yes.
Mr. Burton. Is there anything else that you would like to
say maybe?
Let me yield to my colleague, Mr. Ose, first to see if he
has any questions, and then we will ask your mother if she
wants to make any comments.
Mr. Ose. I would be happy to get my own time, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Burton. Go ahead.
Mr. Ose. OK. I just want to clarify something.
I apologize for having to leave. I got scheduled into the
Chair over on the floor from 3 to 4.
I just want to clarify something. I understand that the
representative from the Saudi Embassy did not show, Mr.
Chairman? The representative from the Saudi Embassy did not
show?
Mr. Burton. No. They sent a statement over from the Saudi
Embassy, and she was supposed to testify, but she didn't show
up.
Mr. Ose. And I also understand that there was a discussion
here about Ms. Saga's citizenship in the sense that she had not
spent the requisite 5 years continuously in the States in order
for transmission to take place, is that accurate?
Mr. Burton. As far as the children are concerned, right.
Mr. Ose. So if I understand the following on to that
particular thing, I just want to say, Ms. Saga, Ms. Dornier,
this isn't directed to you. I just want clarification. If I
understand then, the fact that our government and our State
Department cannot, if you will, for lack of a better term,
liberate these children, they are in effect being asked to
relinquish that which billions of people seek but their own
government can't protect, which is their citizenship. They are
held hostage in a foreign country to a date certain beyond
which they cannot comply with the laws of this country to
effectuate transmission? Do I understand that correctly?
Mr. Burton. That is correct. The lady that testified
earlier, Ms. Harty, she indicated that there is a provision in
law that allows them to, if they come to the United States, to
stay while seeking citizenship. But as far as being citizens
with the rights of the United States, they aren't.
Mr. Ose. I may have missed this discussion. Was there any
discussion from Ms. Harty about accommodating or addressing the
circumstances under which a child, a minor, whose actions and
activities are--frankly, are legally constrained in the first
place, but where the presence of a minor in a foreign country,
physically prevented from coming here, loses their citizenship?
There is no provision in the law for addressing that?
Mr. Burton. According to the law as it has been presented
to me and as she mentioned in her comments, if the parent, the
mother has been out of the country for more than 5 years and
she was a minor when she went over there, her children, the
issue of that marriage is not considered an American citizen.
But they will allow them to come to the United States under a
visa, and then they can go ahead and make application for
citizenship.
Mr. Ose. So if I understand--I had a constituent. She moved
to San Francisco, as I recall. She had two daughters who were
abducted and remained in Saudi Arabia. They have now become of
majority age under our laws. They have lost their citizenship?
Mr. Burton. No. No. She was an American citizen when she
had the children.
Mr. Ose. Correct. So the children were not here for the
requisite number of years.
Mr. Burton. No, they are talking about the parent. If the
parent was out of the country for 5 years and they had
children, those children did not gain American citizenship as a
birthright like you would if you were born here.
Mr. Ose. So what if the parent comes back, but the children
do not?
Mr. Burton. Well, that is the problem we have right here.
Mr. Ose. That is my point. I have a former constituent----
Mr. Burton. Her children in effect have no rights as an
American citizen, even though they were born of an American
citizen.
Mr. Ose. I dare say the Saudis know this.
Mr. Burton. They do know this.
Mr. Ose. I have to say, Mr. Chairman, I am somewhat pleased
to see the administration start moving our military to Qatar
and Kuwait and Bahrain. It gives me a great deal of pleasure to
understand that we are at least taking what appear to be some
steps to no longer defend that which is indefensible.
And I don't have any questions for Ms. Saga. I mean, I
can't tell you how pleased I am to have you home. I mean, as I
understand, you are in Fresno, which is, if you will, down
valley from where I am. And I am pleased you are here. I am
sorry your children are still there.
Ms. Saga. Thank you.
Mr. Ose. I just--Mr. Chairman, I am at a loss for words.
Mr. Burton. Well, thank you, Mr. Ose.
I think we have covered just about everything.
Ms. Dornier, do you have any comments you would like to
make since you are here for your daughter for the first time in
a long time?
Ms. Dornier. I apologize. I thought that I was going to
have a chance to make a statement, and so I did prepare
something. Is that possible?
Mr. Burton. Sure. You are welcome to that right now.
STATEMENT OF DEBBIE DORNIER, MOTHER OF SARAH SAGA
Ms. Dornier. Thank you very much.
In 1975, I met a man who called himself Steve and appeared
to be an American. We dated, and later I found out that I was--
once I was already involved with him, that he actually was a
Saudi named Waheed Saga. And many asked why I married him. To
me, he was different from the other Arabs. He was very
Americanized.
We married; and over the years he changed, especially after
Sarah our child was born in 1979. He became more abusive and
unreasonable; and in our divorce negotiations, he wanted to
take her, then age 3, to be raised by his mom. I got him to
compromise by agreeing to allow her to visit his family in the
summers, knowing that his family had been very supportive of me
in the past.
Initially, he did this, but then in 1985 he took her and
refused to return her. I offered to go be his mother's maid so
I could just be with her. This plan seemed to be progressing,
but he said I would have to give up my American citizenship,
marry him, and become a Saudi. After the advice of my family
and much prayer, I decided that I could have more success from
here than from there.
Once informed of this decision to stay here, he cut me off
from all contact with Sarah, and what ensued was years of
silence. I tried to get a bench warrant and take legal action
against him, but all avenues required my notification of him of
my efforts. This I could not do, because in our first
conversations after the kidnapping, he promised me he would
kill Sarah if I tried to get her back, saying she was better
dead than ever returning to this evil country. Even to this
day, members of his own family believe he would do this without
a second thought.
The State Department at the time promised they would have
record and passport available to her if she could ever get to
the Embassy but that they could not risk relations for Saudi
Arabia for one child.
To say I was upset would be a gross understatement. My
hands were tied at every turn. I decided not to risk her life
by going to the media and prayed that in time things would
change.
Then, in 2000, just 1 month after we celebrated Sarah's
21st birthday, telling the younger family members stories about
her and celebrating who she was, she called. The tremendous joy
was so incredible. She was alive.
We renewed our relationship, and the tales of abuse and
torture she told me broke my heart. But at least we were in
contact again. Then 1 day, after many attempts to try to get
her husband to let us meet, she said, mom, I can't live this
way anymore. I have to take my children and get them out of
here. And so began our quest to help Sarah come home with her
babies.
We heard of Pat Rausch via Internet searches on Saudi
abductions, and she along with others helped tremendously in
the coming months to facilitate Sarah's escape. Ultimately,
Sarah was able to get her husband to take her to see her
grandparents near the consulate in Jeddah, and that evening
there in California I waited what seemed endless hours to hear
if she had safely made it into the refuge of the consulate.
Never did I expect that first call would reveal that the people
there at the consulate would already have tried to convince
Sarah to go back home.
In the days to come, I had to explain to officials that in
fact her life was in danger if she left the consulate compound.
She was constantly telling me that she had meeting after
meeting. Each time they gave no hope to help her get her kids
out. The consular officials were unwilling to represent Sarah's
best interests over that of the Saudis.
First they told me they were not equipped to have Sarah
there because someone else had sought refuge there and was
using the apartment. When convinced that Sarah was unable to
leave, then I was told--they told me that I need to send money
for Sarah and the kids to eat because the consulate had no
funds to pay for their food.
Even Matthew Gillen from Overseas Citizens Services didn't
tell me he was supposed to be my Stateside, State Department
contact until the Fox News correspondent found out for me days
after our first conversations. We had spoken a few times to
facilitate getting money to Sarah and briefly get background
details on her case, but that was all. It seemed that no one
wanted to help Sarah come with her kids from there.
On one occasion I asked Mr. Gillen to have officials stop
pressuring Sarah to sign documents of which she could not know
the legal ramification or even understand without legal advice.
He said he could not do this; she was an adult and could make
her own decisions. When I pressed the issue, I explained that
by leaving at six she had no concept of her rights under
American law; and I suggested that--he suggested that I was
making a big deal out of the issue, but that there were lots of
lawyers the consulate might be willing to work with, and he
could fax me a list. When I received the list, they were all
Saudi men in Saudi Arabia who could not be necessarily assured
that they would represent Sarah and her children's best
interest over that of the Saudis.
By the time I had procured an American lawyer, they had not
only refused to fax us a copy of the documents they were having
her sign but had already worn her down to the point of
exhaustion mentally and physically such that she agreed to take
the best deal that she could get to keep contact with her kids
and come home to continue the fight for their freedom.
To date, every promise made to her at that time to keep
contact with her children has already been broken. She has only
been allowed to hear her children's voices in the background of
phone calls and not to speak to them. The loss is unbearable
for her. But we stand together to fight for as long as it takes
for her children to come home.
As always, we remain concerned that her father Waheed Saga
holds a green card to the United States and works for an
American company Aramco there in Yanbu, Saudi Arabia. We have
no doubt that, if he could, he would silence us both for good.
To date, we have not been successful in preventing his entry
into the United States as a deterrent to further violence
against my daughter or myself.
Ms. Harty said that now Saudis are saying that adults will
be allowed to return, but let me point out that by that time
they will most likely be mothers themselves and required to
leave their own children behind, perpetuating to a new
generation this atrocity.
In closing, let me just say that if a woman must go through
what Sarah did at the hands of her own government consular
officials, I am sure few will flee for home. As Sarah told me
herself, they could have easily been Saudis, not Americans, as
they were preoccupied with saving Saudi pride and their
business relationship with Saudi Arabia, rather than her rights
as an American. Even as she left, they told her one more time
to avoid the media as it might embarrass them.
Freedom of speech is one of the most precious freedoms our
great forefathers have left to us. Representatives in our
consulate in Saudi Arabia might do well to remember such is the
great heritage of all Americans. Thank you.
Mr. Burton. Ms. Dornier, let me just say that I apologize
for not letting you make your statement earlier. We were
anxious to hear from your daughter and hear her story. But that
was a very moving presentation, and I hope that everybody who
heard it will take it to heart.
Ms. Dornier. Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Dornier follows:]
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Mr. Burton. Do you have any more questions, Ms. Watson?
Ms. Watson. I don't have a question. I just have a comment,
Mr. Chairman; and, again, I want to thank you for pursuing
this.
I feel very deeply the experiences you have and the fact
that I think our government has really let you down. I saw it
occurring in my own Embassy where I had to step in, and I
intend--I want to make this commitment not only to the two of
you and those in the audience but to the Chair, that I am going
to pursue this issue and so that we can train our turf--
everywhere we have an Embassy it is U.S. turf--and the people
on that turf to treat Americans with respect, to treat
Americans with compassion, to be sure they know their rights,
and to intercede for them on that post, in that land where they
are stationed. I think that is the least we can do.
And your last line confirms it. As Americans, we have an
obligation to you when you are on this turf, the United States
of America, or turf sitting in Saudi Arabia or sitting in
China, we have a responsibility to you.
There is something missing in the State Department, and I
can't describe it; that is for another discussion. But you have
my commitment, and I am sure the Chair will remain committed.
And, again, thank you.
Mr. Burton. Let me just end up by saying, first of all,
thank you, Ms. Watson.
It is nice to have you back. We will continue to work to
see if there is something that can be done to bring your
children home. I am convinced there are hundreds, maybe
thousands of women like you in Saudi Arabia who would like to
come back.
One woman told me: Just put me in a box with my kids, stick
me anyplace on a plane, just get us out of here. And she told
me her husband would kill her, and she gave detailed
information on how he would kill her which I am not at liberty
to talk about because he might know who she is if it was on
television.
But we had a number of stories like that. So I know there
is a lot of women like that.
The one thing I will say about our consulate and our
Embassy, years ago, Monica Stowers took her kids to the Embassy
in Riyadh, and the consular officer there took her and her
children escorted by Marines, who didn't want to do this, to
the front gate and put her out on the street. She was arrested
and her children stayed there and her daughter was married off
when she was 12 years old. And Pat Rausch has gone through a
similar situation.
Those sorts of things hopefully won't occur anymore,
because now they will be not kicked out on the street. There is
a long way to go, and I think we covered a lot of that today,
and we are going to work with the State Department and try to
convince them that we have got to be tougher on the Saudis and
others who are taking away the liberties of American citizens.
If somebody kidnaps a child from America, whether Saudi
Arabia, Germany or anyplace in the world, we ought to have some
kind of an agreement with them that those people will be sent
back for prosecution because they violated American law, and
American law must not be superseded by the Saudi law or any
other law in the world.
With that, I want to thank you very much for being here. We
really appreciate it.
Ms. Watson is, I think, as she said, a former Ambassador.
She a real tiger. And she and I will work together to see if we
can't get some steps taken in the right direction to solve
these problems.
Thank you very much for being here, and God bless you.
Ms. Saga. Thank you very much.
Mr. Burton. Thank you. We stand adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 4:27 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
[Additional information submitted for the hearing record
follows:]
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