<DOC>
[109th Congress House Hearings]
[From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access]
[DOCID: f:23409.wais]
TENSION IN THE TINDERBOX: FINDING FAIRNESS FOR FEDERAL FIREFIGHTER
COMPENSATION
=======================================================================
HEARING
before the
SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE FEDERAL WORKFORCE
AND AGENCY ORGANIZATION
of the
COMMITTEE ON
GOVERNMENT REFORM
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED NINTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
AUGUST 12, 2005
__________
Serial No. 109-69
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Reform
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.gpoaccess.gov/congress/
index.html
http://www.house.gov/reform
______
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23-409 WASHINGTON : 2005
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COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM
TOM DAVIS, Virginia, Chairman
CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Connecticut HENRY A. WAXMAN, California
DAN BURTON, Indiana TOM LANTOS, California
ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida MAJOR R. OWENS, New York
JOHN M. McHUGH, New York EDOLPHUS TOWNS, New York
JOHN L. MICA, Florida PAUL E. KANJORSKI, Pennsylvania
GIL GUTKNECHT, Minnesota CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York
MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland
STEVEN C. LaTOURETTE, Ohio DENNIS J. KUCINICH, Ohio
TODD RUSSELL PLATTS, Pennsylvania DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois
CHRIS CANNON, Utah WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri
JOHN J. DUNCAN, Jr., Tennessee DIANE E. WATSON, California
CANDICE S. MILLER, Michigan STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts
MICHAEL R. TURNER, Ohio CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, Maryland
DARRELL E. ISSA, California LINDA T. SANCHEZ, California
GINNY BROWN-WAITE, Florida C.A. DUTCH RUPPERSBERGER, Maryland
JON C. PORTER, Nevada BRIAN HIGGINS, New York
KENNY MARCHANT, Texas ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of
LYNN A. WESTMORELAND, Georgia Columbia
PATRICK T. McHENRY, North Carolina ------
CHARLES W. DENT, Pennsylvania BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont
VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina (Independent)
------ ------
Melissa Wojciak, Staff Director
David Marin, Deputy Staff Director/Communications Director
Rob Borden, Parliamentarian
Teresa Austin, Chief Clerk
Phil Barnett, Minority Chief of Staff/Chief Counsel
Subcommittee on the Federal Workforce and Agency Organization
JON C. PORTER, Nevada, Chairman
JOHN L. MICA, Florida DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois
TOM DAVIS, Virginia MAJOR R. OWENS, New York
DARRELL E. ISSA, California ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of
KENNY MARCHANT, Texas Columbia
PATRICK T. McHENRY, North Carolina ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland
------ ------ CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, Maryland
Ex Officio
HENRY A. WAXMAN, California
Ron Martinson, Staff Director
Chris Barkley, Professional Staff Member
Chad Christofferson, Clerk
C O N T E N T S
----------
Page
Hearing held on August 12, 2005.................................. 1
Statement of:
Judd, Casey, business manager, Federal Wildland Fire Service
Association; and Ryan Beaman, president, Clark County
Firefighters, International Association of Firefighters.... 31
Beaman, Ryan............................................. 67
Judd, Casey.............................................. 31
Vaught, Bob, Forest Supervisor, Humboldt-Toiyabe National
Forest, U.S. Forest Service; and Nancy Kichak, Associate
Director, Strategic Human Resources Policy, Office of
Personnel Management....................................... 7
Kichak, Nancy............................................ 16
Vaught, Bob.............................................. 7
Letters, statements, etc., submitted for the record by:
Beaman, Ryan, president, Clark County Firefighters,
International Association of Firefighters, prepared
statement of............................................... 72
Davis, Hon. Danny K., a Representative in Congress from the
State of Illinois, prepared statement of................... 83
Judd, Casey, business manager, Federal Wildland Fire Service
Association, prepared statement of......................... 37
Kichak, Nancy, Associate Director, Strategic Human Resources
Policy, Office of Personnel Management, prepared statement
of......................................................... 18
Pombo, Hon. Richard W., a Representative in Congress from the
State of California, prepared statement of................. 84
Porter, Hon. Jon C., a Representative in Congress from the
State of Nevada, prepared statement of..................... 5
Vaught, Bob, Forest Supervisor, Humboldt-Toiyabe National
Forest, U.S. Forest Service, prepared statement of......... 11
TENSION IN THE TINDERBOX: FINDING FAIRNESS FOR FEDERAL FIREFIGHTER
COMPENSATION
----------
FRIDAY, AUGUST 12, 2005
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on Federal Workforce and Agency
Organization,
Committee on Government Reform,
Las Vegas, NV.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 11 a.m., at
the Red Rock Canyon Fire Station, off Red Rock Campground Road,
Las Vegas, NV, Hon. Jon C. Porter (chairman of the
subcommittee) presiding.
Present: Representative Porter.
Staff present: Chad Bungard, deputy staff director, chief
counsel; Christopher Barkley, professional staff member; and
Chad Christofferson, clerk.
Mr. Porter. I'd like to formally bring the meeting to
order. I want to say I guess before I get into my scripted
remarks, which I have to include for the record, as do many of
you here today, how much I appreciate all of you being here
today.
And, you know, it's truly a great facility, you know, at
the foothills of one of the most beautiful places in the
country. We're very proud of it, those that are here from
Nevada. I'd like to say it's a secret but it really isn't. Red
Rock and the adjoining area is just absolutely a phenomenal
place. I know as you step outside, and hopefully you can spend
a little time and tour the area, it's tremendous.
But it's very special not only because of the natural
resource but we have so many people here that help make it so
great. You know, the firefighters, Forest Service, State of
Nevada, BLM, we can go on and on, the Federal agencies and all
the State agencies. But it's truly because of a lot of people
that care. There's a lot of volunteers that help here locally
that help in Red Rock. It's very pristine. We want to make sure
that we keep Red Rock the natural resource that it is;
something for us to brag about.
There are some very special individuals that are on the
line every day, and I've had a chance to talk to some of the
guys outside. I think I had a picture with all of them.
But it's a very, very tough job. And it's, you know, we
hear about it at times when the fires are big or when the fires
are roaring across the valley or we hear about it when there's
structures at risk. But truly these men and women that are
fighting those fires are our heroes.
And having had a chance to meet with many individuals prior
to today and then today, I want to make sure that they are
compensated properly, that benefits are proper, that they
realize that we, as Members of Congress, but also residents of
Nevada and of the country, can do everything we can to make
sure that they have the benefits and they have proper
compensation.
I know that Nevada is a State that faces late summer and
fall with the potential of more fires. I know we've experienced
many of those fires just through the years, but now with the
needed moisture we received early in the year, we now have a
lot of vegetation that I know as soon as I would read the
accounts or see the amount of rainfall, knowing how the valley,
from a moisture standpoint, but also realizing August,
September and October we're going to have some more fires. So I
thought it was an appropriate time to have this hearing.
It's again important for the rest of the country to realize
that Nevada is on the forefront of a lot of things, and that's
resort industry, gaming industry, entertainment and even
shopping. But we have natural resources here that we're very
proud of and that's why I think at the base of Red Rock it's
also very, very important to have the hearing here today.
Now into my formal comments. We do have a title for the
hearing. It's called ``Tension in the Tinderbox: Finding
Fairness for Federal Firefighters.'' Again as a committee, in
August, Ranking Minority Member Mr. Danny Davis was going to
try to join us, originally was, but at the last minute had a
conflict, and he sends his apologies. He's a good friend from
Chicago and is very supportive of what we're doing today.
Copies of his opening statement have been made available,
so if anyone would like to see them, and his statement will be
entered into the official record. As I mentioned, I want to
thank everyone here and to the Bureau of Land Management.
You know, as we, as a subcommittee, look at the Federal
work force, it's vital that we make sure that we examine how
the Federal Government compensates the wildland firefighters.
It's nowhere more important than here in Nevada where each year
our State is ravaged by hundreds of wildland fires protected by
hardworking firefighters.
I must say that the green brush and the wonderful wild
flowers, I hope you have a chance to see and maybe even take
some pictures, is a beautiful sight. And as I talk to many of
my colleagues from the east and we talk about public lands,
many of my colleagues they don't really understand the
magnitude of Nevada being almost 90 percent Federal land.
And we've had a chance to fly over Nevada with other
Members of Congress and I point out the window and let them
know that you realize that's Federal property and we have that
responsibility.
That too is I think a reason for having the hearing here
today so we can send that message.
So with that I will submit my formal statement for the
record, but I want to recognize a good friend of mine that
couldn't be here today, Chairman Richard Pombo. He's chairman
of Natural Resources. He has a bill that we're going to talk
about specifically today, and that's H.R. 408 called the
``Federal Wildland Firefighter Emergency Response Compensation
Act of 2005.'' Mr. Pombo is from California where I guess it's
been over a hundred plus there, which is good they have the hot
weather there. We're used to it here.
H.R. 408 would do--what it would do is enhance the pay and
benefit package offered to employees of the Department of
Interior and the Forest Service at the Department of
Agriculture who fight wildland fires.
H.R. 408 would provide what is known as ``portal-to-
portal'' compensation for wildland firefighters and would allow
hazardous duty pay to be calculated for retirement purposes.
Portal-to-portal compensation refers to pay given on a 24-
hour basis beginning at the time a firefighter leaves his home
station and ends upon his return.
Now, I've had a chance to meet some of the gentlemen that
are here today from Arizona, this would be a case where they
are here from southeastern Arizona. I tried to get them to stay
but they said they had to go home sometime, but they were
enjoying being here.
Currently, wildland firefighters are paid only during
working hours and not for off hours despite not being able to
leave the fire-line.
At this time, the vast majority of Federal firefighters--
structural and wildland--do not receive portal-to-portal
compensation and so the decision to change how firefighters are
compensated will have to be made carefully. My hope is that
this hearing will serve as a forum from all key stakeholders on
this issue.
We will first be hearing from Bob Vaught of the Forest
Service. I have invited Mr. Vaught here today not to comment on
the provisions of this bill, but rather to provide the
subcommittee with insight into the current conditions facing
wildland firefighters.
In his capacity as forest supervisor for the Humboldt-
Toiyabe National Forest, he's had firsthand experience with
wildland fires and understands what it is that the wildland
firefighters do at the Forest Service on a day-to-day basis.
Next we'll hear from Nancy Kichak. I hope I pronounced that
right.
Ms. Kichak. Yes.
Mr. Porter. From the Office of Personnel Management. She
will share with us administrations' views on H.R. 408 and help
us to see how this bill will affect pay issues involving other
Federal employees.
On the next panel we'll hear from a representative of
wildland firefighters, Mr. Casey Judd, best tie in the room.
Mr. Judd is the business manager for Federal Wildland Fire
Service Association and he will be sharing his views on H.R.
408 with the subcommittee.
Last, we'll be hearing--we're fortunate to hear from Mr.
Ryan Beaman, the vice president for the Southern Region of
Nevada for the International Association of Firefighters. Mr.
Beaman will share his views with us on some other issues facing
Federal firefighters at this time.
We're fortunate to have all our guests today to discuss
this important issue and I look forward to your testimony.
I've asked other Members and have allowed other Members to
provide any statements in writing, and Members of Congress will
have 5 days to issue their statement and possibly have
additional questions for all of you that are panelists.
I also ask that any written questions provided by the
witnesses be included in the record. I request that all
exhibits, documents, and other materials referred to by members
and the witnesses may be included, and I think we should get a
picture of Red Rock to be on the record.
Mr. Bungard. I'll do it.
Mr. Porter. And may be included in the hearing record, and
all Members be permitted to revise and extend their remarks.
It is the practice of the subcommittee to administer the
oath to all witnesses. So if you would all please stand, all
those witnesses please stand for a moment and I'll administer
the oath.
[The prepared statement of Hon. Jon C. Porter follows:]
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[Witnesses sworn.]
Mr. Porter. Let the record show the witnesses answered in
the affirmative. Please be seated.
Each witness will have approximately 5 minutes to summarize
their comments, and certainly we'll accept anything in writing.
I know it will be tough keeping it to 5 minutes but we'll do
the best we can to make sure that yours points are known and
taken for the record.
So first though we'll now hear from our first panel. Mr.
Vaught, you may begin. Welcome.
STATEMENTS OF BOB VAUGHT, FOREST SUPERVISOR, HUMBOLDT-TOIYABE
NATIONAL FOREST, U.S. FOREST SERVICE; AND NANCY KICHAK,
ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR, STRATEGIC HUMAN RESOURCES POLICY, OFFICE OF
PERSONNEL MANAGEMENT
STATEMENT OF BOB VAUGHT
Mr. Vaught. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for the
opportunity to be here today and talk about firefighting in the
Forest Service. I am Bob Vaught, forest supervisor for the
Humboldt-Toiyabe National Forest, which is 6.3 million acres,
mostly in Nevada, of magnificent mountainous terrain that most
people don't appreciate unless they've been there.
We do manage about 650,000 acres of national forest that
are located in California on the eastern side of the Sierra
Nevada range. I'm responsible for oversight of the management
of the natural resources on this national forest including
significant responsibilities for working with local people.
Mr. Porter. Excuse me, Bob. You realize California is going
to fall off into the ocean anyway. We'll have that in Nevada.
Mr. Vaught. I hope a piece of the eastern part of the
mountains are still steady.
Mr. Porter. That would be OK.
Mr. Vaught. I would like to introduce briefly, if I could,
Mike Dudley. Mr. Dudley is the director of fire management in
my higher level office in Ogden, UT.
I supervise over 400 employees. Over 130 of those work full
time and seasonally in fire management. Many of our non-fire
employees, such as wildlife biologists, foresters, engineers,
hydrologists and many others while they're not full time
firefighters have qualifications and are an essential resource
in fighting fires as well.
Many factors and people are involved in fuel and fire and
firefighting and fuels management. This area of expertise
includes not only fighting wildfires but suppression,
rehabilitation and restoration after fires as well.
Today I'll discuss the current fire season very shortly and
our methods of wildland fire management and the duties of the
many people that are involved in wildland fire management. Of
the three factors that influence wildland fires, weather,
topography and fuels, fuels is the only one we can really
manage with any effectiveness at all.
For much of the 20th century, wildland fires were generally
thought to be bad for the environment, and as a consequence all
were put out as soon as possible. Over time and across very
large areas in Nevada and across the west, as the acres of
natural fires was reduced, the amount of fuel on the landscape
in the form of trees and shrubs has increased.
This buildup of vegetation coupled with drought and the
development of homes and communities near the wildlands has led
to very significant, increasing concerns about the health of
the forest and rangelands as well as the risk to communities.
Understanding and meeting these challenges requires
unprecedented cooperation today among interagency groups
including Federal agencies, State agencies, tribal and local
governments.
I would like to say a few words about this year's fire
season. We've burned more than a million acres of land this
year in Nevada, mostly in southern Nevada. Heavy winter snows
and early rains led to heavy growth of grasses and other
herbaceous fuels. Most of western Nevada rangelands remained at
high risk for wildfire. Eastern and southern Nevada have had
recent rainfalls and so we believe there will be near normal
fire danger for the rest of the season in this area. Forested
areas across the State will continue to see near normal fire
conditions we believe in August.
In initial attack as we fight fires, agencies use a variety
of techniques including ground firefighters, crews, engine
crews and a mixture of helicopters and fixed-wing aircraft. In
recent we've succeeded in controlling more than 98 percent of
fires through initial attack.
If firefighting assets are strained, however, as a result
of multiple, simultaneous large fires, resources are
prioritized and allocated by a group called the National Multi-
Agency Coordinated Group which is based in Boise in a part of
the national interagency fire center. This group consists of
national fire directors of all the Federal firefighting
agencies and State representatives as well. These efforts
ensure that all of the national firefighting assets are
appropriately positioned and provided with the most up to date
information.
In 2005 we have about the same level of firefighting
resources as we had in 2004. Nationally more than 18,000
firefighters are available. This does not include though the
Federal agency personnel and the many other occupations like
wildlife biologists and many others that also mobilize to
perform incident management duties when fires occur. These
18,000 firefighters include Federal and State employee crews
from tribal organizations, local governments, contract crews,
emergency and temporary hires.
If we experience severe fire risk, we stage or deploy
firefighters even before fires occur. And we stage things like
equipment and aircraft vehicles, supplies and personnel. And
these are tracked through a national integrated system.
Aviation is a big and important part of the firefighting
effort, and we use heavy airtankers, helitankers and many other
helicopters. We also use CL-215 airtankers, which are a midsize
airtanker, and smaller airtankers called Single Engine
Airtankers called SEATS. There's also eight military aircraft,
C-130 aircraft that are available.
Safety is of course of extreme importance to our agency and
to our people. Safety is a core value of the Forest Service.
Our firefighters do an impressive job under adverse conditions.
And as you stated, Mr. Chairman, they very much deserve our
thanks.
Firefighting is a high risk, high consequence activity, so
safety and training are essential for firefighter preparedness.
Situational awareness is the centerpiece of firefighter safety,
and our responsibility for managing the unexpected in wildfires
which is where the danger lies. It includes formal classroom
training, on-the-job training, drills, discussions, and reviews
that are all a part of a very significant training program that
firefighters are involved with. They must complete course work
and multiple training assignments in the field before they can
be certified for fire-line positions.
The President's Healthy Forest Initiative has been very
important to the Forest Service and other wildland agencies in
providing us with tools to reduce the risk of fuels, and
therefore reduce the risk of severe and dangerous wildfires. In
total the Humboldt-Toiyabe National Forest in the last 4 years
has completed about 7,000 acres of fuels reduction work. About
3,000 of those acres have been in the wildland urban interface.
I expect this program to significantly increase over the next
few years, and it is a very important one for our nation, for
our communities and for the health of our resources on the
landscape.
Over the past 2 years the Nevada State Forester, the Bureau
of Land Management and Humboldt-Toiyabe National Forest have
worked with the Nevada Fire Safe Council and have completed
Community Wildfire Protection plans for 251 communities at risk
in Nevada. Each of these plans identifies specific actions to
protect communities.
This year the Forest Service also provided $2\1/4\ million
in matching grants to the State of Nevada for fire fuels and
forest health management. And the Humboldt-Toiyabe National
Forest also assists volunteer rural fire departments with
training, equipment and organization through the volunteer fire
assistance program. And so again it highlights the very
significant importance of the interagency help both financially
and as we work together on fires.
As you can see, there are many facets of fire management.
Many occupations are involved in firefighting--planners,
scientists, hydrologists, biologists, finance specialists,
community specialists as well as the men and women of our
firefighting force.
When fire season is over, and even before fire season
begins, our firefighters also have collateral duties and they
put those skills to good use. They include planning, prescribed
fire management and fuels reduction projects, range and many
other non-fire duties. Conversely many of our foresters,
biologists, hydrologists and other professional and technical
and clerical employees have collateral duties when a fire bell
rings.
Last I'd like to say just a few words about the action that
citizens can take. And this is also a very important aspect of
living and working in fire adapted western ecosystems.
Homeowners need to learn how to protect their homes with
survivable, cleared space and how to build their homes and
landscape with fire resistant materials.
A consortium of wildland fire agencies sponsors a Firewise
program. These include the Forest Service, Department of
Interior, the National Fire Protection Association and the
National Association of State Foresters. Information about the
Firewise program is available on our Web site www.firewise.org,
and it is very important that every person that lives or plays
in these fire-adapted ecosystems be knowledgeable.
And we appreciate the opportunity that we have to be here,
and of course we'd be happy to answer any questions you may
have. Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Vaught follows:]
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Mr. Porter. Thank you, Bob. Appreciate your comments.
Before we move on I want to also recognize a friend, Steve
McClintock with Clark County Fire Department. He's here. He's
the rural coordinator. I think many of you know him
professionally. He offered his assistance.
But also I want to acknowledge that his sister recently
passed away, Anita, who was a friend of mine. If you didn't
know, Steve's sister had cancer and it's just recent that he
and his family had the loss of his sister, so I want to add
that for the record because they're a great family and a
firefighting family in Cal-Nev-Ari and other areas.
On a lighter note I know Steve is always eyeballing our
Federal firefighters, and we want to make sure that county
doesn't steal any more of your Federal firefighters and the
city. We want to make sure that we keep them working for the
Federal Government, right, guys? We want to make sure that
we're competitive, and I know that Clark County and the city of
Las Vegas have been superb in cutting edge fire equipment and
employees, but we want to make sure that our Federal team is
equal and has compensation.
So having said that, I know Steve will appreciate your best
wishes.
Next, Nancy, we appreciate you being here, look forward to
your statement.
STATEMENT OF NANCY KICHAK
Ms. Kichak. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I have summarized
my remarks and request that my whole statement be submitted for
the record with your permission.
I am pleased to be here today on behalf of the Office of
Personnel Management to discuss the issue of compensation for
Federal employees who perform emergency functions and to
provide the administration's view on H.R. 408, the Federal
Wildland Firefighter Emergency Response Compensation Act of
2005.
We at the Office of Personnel Management recognize the
importance of the work performed by Federal wildland
firefighters and by their State, local and tribal government
colleagues. We respect the difficulties inherent in the complex
and intense situations they address and I want to express our
appreciation for their efforts.
I would like to focus my testimony today on H.R. 408. As
you are aware, Mr. Chairman, the administration's views have
recently been provided to you in a letter from Linda Springer,
the Director of OPM. In general terms the administration is
unable to support the proposal.
In determining our position on H.R. 408, we are governed by
three basic principles. First, we need to address the merits of
the proposal based on the objectives that must be met to
achieve a certain mission. Second, we must try to maintain some
level of equity among various groups of Federal employees who
face similar challenges. Finally, we are obligated to ensure
taxpayer dollars are being spent efficiently and effectively to
achieve results for the American people.
Section two of H.R. 408 would amend the current law to
provide portal-to-portal compensation for wildland
firefighters. It appears the intent is to mandate that wildland
firefighters be in a duty and pay status for all hours they are
away from their normal duty location to fight wildland fires.
This change would violate each of the three principles stated
which are guiding our review of legislative proposals.
We do not find compelling evidence that such a change is
necessary to meet mission objectives. Pay must be set to assure
that the Federal Government is able to recruit and retain the
employees that it needs to meet its mission. Where there is no
indication that pay levels are producing significant and
widespread recruitment or retention problems, we cannot justify
large, general increases in pay.
Second, this change in pay formula would not lead to equity
among various groups of Federal employees who face similar
challenges. Other Federal employees who are temporarily
assigned to geographically isolated work sites are placed in a
non-pay status when they are released from duty. Therefore, we
believe paying wildland firefighters for periods of rest and
sleep would create inequities for other Federal employees
receiving assignments away from home. Also, we believe it would
be inappropriate to provide hazardous duty pay for sleep and
rest periods.
Our third responsibility is to assure that taxpayer dollars
are spent wisely. Again the pay proposals of H.R. 408 do not
meet this test. As stated previously, many adjustments are made
to the pay of wildland firefighters while they are working at
the sight of the fire. This includes hazardous duty pay and
overtime pay. Under current law, firefighters can receive total
pay for a week that is three to four times his or her regular
weekly rate of basic pay.
Depending on work schedule, this legislation could increase
overall pay in a given week by as much as 100 percent over
amounts payable under current law. Since there is no compelling
evidence of widespread staffing problems, we don't see a basis
for asking taxpayers to fund the kind of large pay increases
that H.R. 408 can produce.
Section three of the bill would make hazardous duty pay
received by firefighters basic pay for retirement purposes.
Again this provision does not meet the three principles
governing our review of the bill, and therefore we oppose that
section also.
The proposed provision does not meet the test of being good
public policy when viewed independently. Retirement annuities
are intended to replace a proportion of an individual's income
earned consistently over the course of a career. For that
reason hazardous duty pay is one of many things explicitly
excluded from statutory definition of basic pay.
Second, crediting hazardous duty pay for retirement
purposes could create substantial inequities between wildland
firefighters and the broader community that also receives
hazardous duty pay but is not credited with that pay for
retirement.
The provision fails the third test of being a prudent use
of taxpayer dollars. Incorporating these amounts in the
calculation of annuities will result in unfunded pension
liabilities and will require additional taxpayer dollars. For
all of the reasons stated above, the administration opposes
H.R. 408. I would be pleased to respond to any questions. Thank
you.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Kichak follows:]
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Mr. Porter. Thank you very much. I would also like to note
that firefighters are not whiners.
Ms. Kichak. No.
Mr. Porter. And note that the firefighters that I've spoken
to are very proud of what they do. They're very proud to serve
and they're also happy to be where they are and they consider
it an honor. So even by this legislation coming forward and
being heard today, it's not based upon a bunch of folks out
there that are really unhappy. They're actually very proud of
what they do. But I would concur that I believe that there
needs to be some adjustments, which is really why we're
gathered here today.
I have of course numerous questions and then we will submit
additional because of the element of time. But I guess first,
Bob, how many in Nevada, how many residents of Nevada would be
under this category? You mentioned 400 and some. Is that Nevada
residents?
Mr. Vaught. Most of those are Nevada residents, 400
employees total. About 130 include the firefighting force for
the Forest Service. That does not, Mr. Chairman, include BLM
employees or other Federal agency employees. Only a portion
though of those 130 employees have a permanent appointment with
the Forest Service and would be applied to a standard like
this. And I'm sorry I don't have the exact number with me
today, but I'd be happy to provide that. I could do so quickly.
Mr. Porter. What would you say an average for, and I may
have the terminology wrong, but a transfer to another portal,
would it be called transfer or what would you call it when they
go to fight a fire in Washington State or whatever, what is
that called? Transferred?
Mr. Vaught. Mike.
Mr. Dudley. Just a reassignment.
Mr. Porter. So if you're to take the average time away to
be reassigned, what would it be for an employee to be away from
their own portal.
Mr. Vaught. Mr. Chairman, it really varies a lot. Right
now, in fact, in Washington and the very northern part of the
United States fire danger is very high, and we expect that
there will be additional significant fire behavior up there
this fall. And when an employee leaves their home to go to a
fire in a location such as that from Nevada, they are gone--I
believe they can work--how many days, Mike.
Mr. Dudley. 14 up to 21.
Mr. Porter. 14 up to 21.
Mr. Vaught. Up to 21 days.
Mr. Porter. So they should anticipate 14 but then they
could go to 21 is what you're saying.
Mr. Vaught. Yes.
Mr. Porter. When they transfer, reassign it's 14 days at a
time normally.
Mr. Vaught. Yes, normally. Now, if the fire danger remains
severe, they would have a short period of rest and they could
be quickly reassigned to the fire again. So the main purpose of
the 14 to 21 days is to ensure that they have a limited period
of work and a proper amount of rest before they're reassigned
to fires. But in some cases in severe years firefighters are
assigned constantly on that type of schedule, 14 to 21 days and
then rest period and reassigned throughout the fire season.
Mr. Porter. So they could be gone for a better part of a
summer or fire season, 90 days or so, I mean, could they.
Mr. Vaught. Mr. Chairman, that is entirely possible. And
for some employees it's even likely. We have a group of
employees called Hot Shots and their role is to be kind of the
army rangers of the Forest Service firefighting corps. They're
the elite troops and they spend their entire summer fighting
fires somewhere in the Forest Service across the country.
Mr. Porter. Are they compensated differently? Is it the
same hazardous pay when they're on? How does it work for those
guys.
Mr. Vaught. They're compensated in precisely the same way
as other Federal employees that fight fires, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Porter. So of the 400 and some approximately you
mentioned, about 130 are full-time firefighters.
Mr. Vaught. Mr. Chairman, full time during the season.
Mr. Porter. Yes.
Mr. Vaught. Yes. Some have permanent appointments and some
are just seasonal employees and just work part of the year for
the Forest Service and don't have permanent Federal
appointments.
Mr. Porter. I met a young man this morning that's from
Arizona that's trying to--he's seasonal and trying to go full
time.
Mr. Vaught. Right.
Mr. Porter. There you have a number of those folks.
Mr. Vaught. Yes, sir.
Mr. Porter. And this may be a question for Nancy, and if
need be, please jump in. What are their classification? What is
their title? Are they technicians? Wildlife technicians?
Wildland technicians? How do they fall into the category of
titles.
Mr. Vaught. That might be better addressed--or should I go
ahead? In most cases, Mr. Chairman, our firefighting forces are
and historically have been classified in the forestry
technician series. And the pay grades range from GS-5 up to GS-
13 or so for the employees that are actively fighting fire on
the ground. And I think in most cases they are classified as
forestry technician employees.
Mr. Porter. That's because they have other duties beyond
just fighting fires.
Mr. Vaught. Yes. The Forest Service has always viewed our
firefighters as a part of our larger natural resource
management force, and during the off season they perform
forestry technician duties. During the on season they perform
fire duties, and then basically almost all of our employees
fight fire when the need is high. So it's part of our larger
resource management issue.
Mr. Porter. So more specifically how much time does a
wildland firefighter spend on fighting wildfires as compared to
other Forest Service management duties? Like 50/50 or 70/30 or
what would it be.
Mr. Vaught. Mr. Chairman, our firefighting employees have
different kinds of appointments. Some are full time year round.
And in those cases those employees spend maybe 30 percent of
their year fighting fire and the remainder of the year in other
duties. Other employees have what we call 18 and 8
appointments. So 18 pay periods fighting fire mostly with 8 pay
periods off where they're not on active duty, so to speak.
And then we have another class of employee that are 13 and
13. So about half of their year they are full-time employees
fighting fire and then about half of their year they are off.
And then we have seasonal employees who are only hired, don't
have a full-time appointment and only are hired during the
firefighting season.
Now, what I also have to say though that many of our less
than permanent full time, year round status employees, the 18
and 8 employees and the 13 and 13 employees, remain on when
there is funding and work to do. So when we have fire,
prescribed fire work or fuels reduction work and lots of chain
saw work and other on the ground work, wildlife projects, range
fence building projects, when there is funding and they have an
interest in staying on, many of them work much longer than
their 18 and 8 or 13 and 13 appointment in order to take on
that extra work. I hope that answers your question.
Mr. Porter. I'm going to have to digest what you just told
me, but I think I understand. I'll probably come back to that
in a little bit.
The forestry technician category, and I'll tell you where
I'm going, I don't particularly like that title. I think we
need to elevate that position somehow, something other than
technician. And maybe not today but I'd like both of you to
help me as we move forward in legislation. Not that there's
anything wrong with that title, but I think we have to elevate
it a little bit more because they're not technicians, you know,
they're firefighters. They're professionals.
And as part of legislation we need to work on that title,
and maybe some of you guys will help me later on with a better
title. But I want to work on that too, because I think they
deserve something elevated in that capacity.
Explain some of the off-season duties. You talked about it
a little bit, off fire season. So they do proactive under the
forestry initiative, the President, so can you talk about that
a little bit more, some of the things they do?
Mr. Vaught. Certainly, Mr. Chairman. One of the main duties
they do is what we call fuels or prescribed fire program under
the Healthy Forest Restoration Act, and the President's
initiatives that we're currently operating under, it gives us
funding and priority to do a lot of fuels reduction work.
This type of work occurs outside normally of the wildfire
season, and so we have to do planning, NEPA, National
Environmental Policy Act, planning work. We have to do
technical planning work, figure out where to do this kind of
work on the landscape of millions of acres. We have to set
priorities and then we actually go out and do that.
Mr. Porter. So if there's a beetle infested forest, they
would work on under the act.
Mr. Vaught. That would be a good example.
Mr. Porter. Remove some of these proactively.
Mr. Vaught. Yes. They also do many other kinds of work that
are unrelated to fire. The range program has projects that
might involve fence construction or supporting the ranchers on
the national forest. They might have work associated with our
timber program, marking boundary lines or helping and
supporting the folks that are surveying and laying out timber
sales, for example.
There are many, many, many resource areas--watershed
projects. There are wildlife and fisheries projects, building
guzzlers to support higher levels of wildlife populations. Many
kinds of work that really cover the entire gamut of the natural
resource work that the Forest Service does.
Mr. Porter. My friends at the National Park Service, I
spent 25 years in Boulder City and I was mayor and councilman
so I have a lot of friends in the National Park Service, and I
know that a lot of their duties have evolved from National Park
duties to law enforcement duties because of the number of
tourists and visitors there. Is your team involved much in law
enforcement or are they being put in a position of law
enforcement because of the tourists or visitors or problems in
the areas.
Mr. Vaught. Mr. Chairman, by and large they do not. That
doesn't mean there aren't a few employees that are involved in
the law enforcement work. But at least on Humboldt-Toiyabe
National Forest our law enforcement officers are professional
officers, they're peace officers of the same rank and level as
county sheriffs and other professional law enforcement
officers. There are relatively few of them. We just have maybe
four or five law enforcement officers on the entire Humboldt-
Toiyabe National Forest in the State of Nevada.
Mr. Porter. Normally that would be in partnership with
local government, counties, cities.
Mr. Vaught. Yes.
Mr. Porter. They're not being called into that role very
often.
Mr. Vaught. No.
Mr. Porter. Other than those that are assigned to that.
Mr. Vaught. Right.
Mr. Porter. How about rescues, do they do a lot of rescue
of individuals.
Mr. Vaught. Mr. Chairman, they really do not. Now, if we
have rescue missions, and we do, we search around in our
organization and we assign people that are available to go on
those rescues, but it would be a very small, a very small
percentage of the firefighter's responsibility.
Mr. Porter. What about prescribed burns, how is that
handled? Is that handled differently as far as their role with
prescribed burns.
Mr. Vaught. Mr. Chairman, actually our firefighters would
have a very big role in the prescribed burn program. They help
plan those. They help design that kind of work. And then our
firefighters of course, our wildland firefighters are the most
experienced in dealing with fire. And so when we put fire on
the landscape as a planned activity, they would have a very
large responsibility in doing that. And that kind of work is
increasing at a rather dramatic rate as we have funding and
priority to implement the President's initiative.
Mr. Porter. I was just in Washington State and I know
there's serious fires happening. For the team from the Nevada
portal to go to the Washington portal, how are they
transported? How do they get there? How does that work.
Mr. Vaught. Mr. Chairman, it does depend. In some cases
they would fly on commercial airlines. In some cases there
would be Forest Service air transportation for some crews. And
in many cases, I would say probably in most cases they would
drive.
Mr. Porter. Drive a Federal vehicle or their own vehicle?
How do they get there.
Mr. Vaught. Through Federal vehicles, fire engines or fire
vehicles that are specifically funded and set aside for use in
the fire program.
Mr. Porter. I see.
Mr. Vaught. So most crews have crew vans, for example, and
in most cases they would drive.
Mr. Porter. Now, this is a premier facility we're in today.
I know the guys from Arizona would smile and appreciate being
here. But when the firefighters are called to a fire and
they're living and breathing the smoke and the danger every
day, their off times are many times spent right at the base of
the fire, correct, whether it be tents or under a tree. So if
you could, maybe explain some of the living conditions when
they are--when they do leave a portal if there's a severe fire.
Mr. Vaught. On our larger fires, Mr. Chairman, we generally
set up what we call an incident command post. Sometimes they
can be very large and include several hundred employees that
are living and working in this area. They bring in showers,
portable showers. They bring in portable food, folks that
prepare and feed and can feed large numbers of firefighters in
short periods of time. And each of the crews sets up in a
certain place almost in a military fashion, and they do live
and stay in that fire camp during their off hours.
Our firefighters are restricted to 16 hours of firefighting
work a day, which is a very long day. And that doesn't mean
they all work 16 hours, but they work up to 16 hours. And so
our crews would come back to the camp, to the incident command
post, for their sleep hours and then get fed, showered and the
next day go out again from that location. They generally are
fairly segregated from say cities and towns, and so they
oftentimes are remote.
Mr. Porter. And we have lost some technicians, firefighters
when they're off duty from fires and other catastrophes,
correct, that were actually on duty in a camp nearby? Hasn't
there been some cases where accidents have happened or the fire
has shifted, we've lost some individuals?
Mr. Vaught. Mr. Chairman, unfortunately there have been
some fatalities of our firefighter crews over the last number
of years on duty. And occasionally there are firefighters that,
much relatively rarely, but there are examples of firefighters
that off duty wander onto a highway or in some cases get into
trouble and also there are a few fatalities that occur in that
way.
Mr. Porter. The reason I ask about living conditions is
that again we have a great facility here, and this is unique,
but if we have a major fire, as we have had here in the past,
they wouldn't all be able to stay here. There would be
facilities set up, you say military style here, it would be 120
degrees in a camp, correct? It's not like we're putting folks
in Bellagios around the country when there's a serious fire.
Mr. Vaught. Basically, Mr. Chairman, we provide very good
meals. We provide as good of living conditions as we can to
keep the firefighters happy and healthy, but they would
certainly be described as rustic.
Mr. Porter. And again these employees are not complaining.
They would like to have their compensation adjusted but they
don't complain. They're a great group of folks. You should be
very proud. Thank you, Bob. And I may come back a little bit
later.
For the OPM, and I know that we disagree a little bit
possibly on pieces of this legislation, but I also know of
OPM's respect for these individuals. Just talk about your
prospective of these folks a little bit, would you, Nancy,
because I know you have great respect also for them.
Ms. Kichak. Well, they definitely do a magnificent job, and
we do want to afford them all the respect they're due. And,
therefore, if the title forestry technician doesn't have the
connotation that affords that respect, we would certainly be
glad to look at renaming the series.
However, it is true that because of the particular series
they're in, series 462, the firefighters do receive higher
grade--are paid at a higher grade level in recognition of the
extra duties they do, the things they know about conservation
and forestry and agriculture. So the title might be misleading
but the series definitely recognizes their broad range of
skills, not just their firefighting skills.
And there is some value to that to be in that series
because it helps them achieve a higher grade. But we'd
definitely be glad to look at renaming that, would make it
clear what high regard we hold them in.
Mr. Porter. And again we're not here to talk about renaming
it.
Ms. Kichak. Right.
Mr. Porter. Or coming up with a new title, but I think
that's something we can work on that would help a little bit
with morale.
The seasonal employees of course was talked about,
permanent. You also mentioned a little bit about not having a
recruitment problem and not having a retention problem. Would
you talk about that a little bit?
Ms. Kichak. Sure. We have a data base, the central
personnel data file. We've analyzed looking at the folks that
assume this position. And if you look at what we call quit
rates for folks in similar grades as our firefighters, the quit
rates are similar. In other words, folks are as likely to leave
a Federal job of a similar grade that are not firefighters as
the ones who are firefighters.
We've looked at the quit rate of seasonal folks, and the
quit rate there is high but it's not higher than other seasonal
folks. The Federal Government employs a broad range of folks to
meet its objectives. We have a lot of seasonal employees in
other jobs in interior. We have seasonal employees in the
Internal Revenue Service, etc.
Mr. Porter. We have too many of those, IRS. Just kidding.
Ms. Kichak. Anyway, if we look at the quit rate for folks
in that kind of employment situation, it's very similar to the
firefighters. So we don't believe we have a recruit and retain
problem in the firefighters.
Mr. Porter. Is it possible that there are regional problems
with recruitment.
Ms. Kichak. Yes, there can be regional problems. There are
other pay flexibilities besides the portal-to-portal coverage.
There are recruitment bonuses and retention bonuses. We also
have locality pay. We have locality pay adjustments for some
firefighters in California. So there are other ways if there
are recruitment and retention programs to address the issue.
Mr. Porter. I realize this is a hearing specific to the
bill, but are there some areas that you, OPM, is working on now
to help with Federal firefighters or in this circumstance? Is
there anything that we need to know about that maybe is on the
drawing board.
Ms. Kichak. We are not specifically working on anything
pertaining to firefighters. We are studying the issue. We have
received a lot of feedback from the community, and we remain
interested in everything they've provided. We've been reviewing
that. We know there's been some concern about healthcare for
firefighters, although those who are permanent, either a full
time or seasonal basis, those folks get it.
We continue to look at what might be done for coverage for
folks of a temporary nature and health insurance. However,
again the Federal Government is a large organization and it
hires a lot of folks on a temporary basis. So we're looking at
all these programs as they affect not just firefighters but the
community at large.
Mr. Porter. What happens to seasonal if they get hurt on
the job.
Ms. Kichak. Well, anyone who gets hurt on the job is
assisted through the Department of Labor through our workman's
compensation program. No matter what kind of appointment
they're in, that is available to them.
Mr. Porter. I mentioned earlier the prescribed burns. My
understanding is that they don't receive hazardous duty pay for
prescribed burns; is that correct.
Ms. Kichak. I am unable to answer that question.
Mr. Vaught. Mr. Chairman, that is correct.
Mr. Porter. Do we know why that is.
Mr. Dudley. Because it's considered under a prescribed fire
you're operating under constrained conditions at your----
Mr. Porter. Portal.
Mr. Dudley [continuing]. At your work in terms of
developing the burns. So because of that it's not considered to
be a wildfire and under those operations hazard pay is not
considered. If the prescribed fire was to escape and be
declared a wildfire, then you'd be in a hazard pay situation.
Mr. Porter. I see. You anticipated my question. Thank you.
The Federal Government hires a number of cooperators from
State and local as well as private fire agencies to assist just
because there's not enough Federal firefighters or is it
because it's tough to gear up without that?
Ms. Kichak. Well, the decision on who to hire to fight a
particular fire is made at the fire.
Mr. Vaught. Mr. Chairman, if I might, there are many very
good and important reasons for hiring local resources. You
don't have transportation. They often know the country.
Oftentimes volunteer fire departments really appreciate the
experience that they receive while fighting wildfires when they
work with us.
And so it has always been perceived as a very positive
thing to use local resources when available. And I believe that
it helps our relationships, it provides some small amount of
work for a period of time to local folks and local communities,
and it is a very positive cooperate relationship.
Mr. Porter. And I will put a plug in for Nevada, whether it
be North Las Vegas or Boulder City or Henderson, County and
City, we have a great team here. And I know that its
cooperation is probably one of the best in the country. And
that's credit to those folks out there every day and to
management. But I think we're a real model here in southern
Nevada of cooperation between agencies.
And I know that we've had some rough situations in the
years, but of course when you include 7,000, 8,000, 9,000
people a month moving into the area and all the of course
strain on our infrastructure and facilities, I think in Nevada
we did a great job and we appreciate everyone for that.
I really have one more question, and that is the portal-to-
portal, if we were to make some adjustments specific to the
forestry technicians and firefighters, how does that impact
other firefighters? What happens if we do that?
Ms. Kichak. Well, the other Federal firefighters are called
structural firefighters, and their pay system----
Mr. Porter. Excuse me, is that like Nellis firefighters,
are they structural firefighters.
Ms. Kichak. Which kind.
Mr. Porter. At Nellis Air Force Base.
Ms. Kichak. Yes. In fact, 90 percent of the structural
firefighters are in the Department of Defense. And they're in a
series called 0081, and their grade level is lower and their
hourly pay is lower. And this is because they are paid for a
24-hour shift. They don't receive overtime until they've worked
over 53 hours a week and they don't receive hazardous duty pay.
So their whole package is entirely different.
And we do not want to create--you can't look at one piece
of the package without looking at the other piece. In other
words, I definitely understand the interest for having portal-
to-portal coverage but then in order to do exactly comparable,
you would end up with a lower hourly pay and you would give us
your hazardous duty pay. So changing this for one set of
firefighters would create an environment in which the other
Federal firefighters would then be dissatisfied.
Mr. Porter. Or when we're looking maybe we should look at
some others also, make sure that they're being compensated
appropriately also, correct? Put you on the spot, Nancy. But it
seems to me we should be looking beyond this at some other
areas also. And really that's it for now. I sure appreciate you
both being here.
Ms. Kichak. Thank you very much.
Mr. Porter. You've come a long way from Pennsylvania.
Ms. Kichak. It's beautiful.
Mr. Porter. Bob, where do you live.
Mr. Vaught. Mr. Chairman, the forest supervisor's office,
my headquarters office is in Sparks, so we're in the Reno area.
We have 10 districts throughout the State of Nevada with one
office being in Bridgeport, CA. And so our forces and employees
are widely separated in 10 different offices throughout the
State.
Mr. Porter. And Sparks has made it on ABC News as one of
the best places to live in the country, by the way. Just
thought you might like to know that. Thank you very much.
Mr. Vaught. Thank you.
Mr. Porter. Casey and Ryan, please join us.
Next this, of course, is panel two. Casey Judd, you're up,
president, Federal Wildland Fire Service Association. Casey,
welcome.
STATEMENTS OF CASEY JUDD, BUSINESS MANAGER, FEDERAL WILDLAND
FIRE SERVICE ASSOCIATION; AND RYAN BEAMAN, PRESIDENT, CLARK
COUNTY FIREFIGHTERS, INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF FIREFIGHTERS
STATEMENT OF CASEY JUDD
Mr. Judd. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do want to correct
you. I'm actually the business manager for the Federal Wildland
Fire Service Association.
Mr. Porter. So you get blamed for everything.
Mr. Judd. Absolutely. And the buck stops here. The
president, the one with the really cool tie, is sitting behind
me.
Mr. Porter. There we go.
Mr. Judd. I appreciate the opportunity to be here. It's
been a long time coming. As stated, my name is Casey Judd, and
I'm the business manager for the Federal Wildland Fire Service
Association. The FWFSA is an employee association that was
created by wildland firefighters in 1991. Our members hold
positions throughout the GS grade system from the entry level
GS-2s and 3s to FMOs, or fire manager officers, in the GS-12
range.
As a result, the FWFSA itself receives a wealth of
information on the impact of pay and personnel policies in the
everyday lives of its members along with the environment of
their working conditions they face on the fire-line. We believe
that such information is not readily available to other
government agencies.
It is my responsibility to represent the association's
members in a legislative capacity by developing legislative
proposals designed to achieve the association's goals and
objectives and to educate you folks on the Hill with respect to
those issues.
I was a Federal firefighter employed by the Department of
Defense for 20 years and previously held the elected position
of fifth district vice president for the California
Professional Firefighters, a position which provided
legislative and political representation for the State's
Federal firefighters.
I also nearly won a position on the executive board of the
International Association of Firefighters in 2003 by losing by
21 votes in a special election. I have been working with
Members of Congress on Federal firefighter issues for over a
decade. As committee members you're of course----
Mr. Porter. Excuse me, it's funny how you remember those
numbers, right, 21. I remember I've lost some races. I can tell
you the numbers. It's OK.
MR. JUDD. 21. Trust me, I counted and recounted.
As committee members of course you're all used to the
formality of witnesses offering their thanks, but I'd be remiss
if I didn't personally on the record thank Chris for taking the
time to work with us, and Chad too. Chris has really taken an
interest in this issue. I've sent him Web sites of infrared
imaging, and I really think to a large degree we wouldn't be
here if we didn't have folks such as Chris that are really
truly interested in the subject matter and want to make a
difference in it.
Although it's unfortunate that more members of the
committee couldn't be here today as a result of the August
recess and the scheduling conflicts, it is our fervent hope
that you will help those folks read our written testimony. We
had hoped to have additional firefighters here today. Of course
they're all on fire assignments.
Mr. Porter. Excuse me, Casey. I've been threatening my
subcommittee that we would be coming to Las Vegas for a hearing
soon, and know that if it wasn't for whether it be family or--
--
Mr. Judd. Absolutely.
Mr. Porter [continuing]. Congressional commitments that
they really are very interested in this. Of course we love to
come to Nevada, but timing is such, but they are very
interested and want to hear more.
Mr. Judd. Absolutely. I understand that. We trust that each
one of you will take the time to thoroughly read the testimony
provided by our firefighters, if you haven't already. We
believe that it will paint a very clear picture of the
longstanding detrimental effects of current pay and personnel
policies that are on our Federal wildland firefighters and will
illustrate the ramifications of maintaining the status quo with
respect to those policies. We trust the testimony will also
provide guidance on how to affect positive change not only for
our firefighters but the Nation's taxpayers.
H.R. 408, the Federal Wildland Firefighter Emergency
Response Compensation Act, is the second in a series of bills
introduced by Congressman Pombo on our behalf. His first
effort, H.R. 2814, was well received by the subcommittee under
the chairmanship of former Congressman Joe Scarborough.
During hearings before what was then the Subcommittee on
Civil Service, and additional testimony before the Subcommittee
on Forests and Forest Health, the FWFSA laid the groundwork for
H.R. 408. Although opposed by OPM in favor of a legislative
proposal offered by the administration, H.R. 2814 which
eliminated the overtime pay cap for Federal wildland
firefighters was passed by Congress and signed into law in
2000.
The issues identified in H.R. 408 and supporting testimony
are certainly not new. The concept of portal-to-portal pay
along with the proper classification of wildland firefighters
has been discussed for over two decades by the land and
management agencies themselves.
Numerous meetings have resulted in recommendations from a
variety of sources suggesting that the time has come for proper
classification while also identifying the benefits of portal-
to-portal pay for Federal wildland firefighters.
Despite these recommendations and the employing agency's
very own findings on the benefits of portal-to-portal pay,
proper classification and other personnel pay reforms,
firefighters continue to face bureaucratic opposition to these
reforms. Whether it be the political appointees of the land
management agencies fearing the loss of such appointments or
the bureaucratic bean counters with absolutely no insight into
the world of wildland firefighting, our brave men and women
have been stymied for years in being properly recognized as
firefighters and properly compensated for their life risking
duties.
Yet sadly these very bureaucrats who classify the employees
as forestry technicians, range technicians and biological
science technicians refer to them as firefighters when our men
and women lose their lives in the line of duty. Despite data to
the contrary, the government continues to suggest there are no
recruitment and retention problems within the Federal wildland
firefighting community.
Such opinions are truly misleading when it becomes evident
that the data used by the government fails to take into account
the loss rates for seasonal firefighters who make up nearly 50
percent of the annual firefighting staffing. Responding to H.R.
408 the administration of land management agencies have
suggested that implementing such legislation would be
prohibitively expensive rather than embracing the reality that
it might, in fact, mandate the agency to develop more cost
effective and efficient fire suppression funding policies and
practices, and, in fact, require them to become more fiscally
responsible to the American taxpayer.
Given that the Forest Service has chosen to scrape $100
million off the top of the suppression budget to move its human
resources department to New Mexico, it would seem a logical
conclusion that fiscal policies could be more efficient. The
administration has also suggested that implementing H.R. 408
would create a pay disparity between wildland firefighters and
other Federal employees who are sent on temporary assignments.
As I indicated in my written testimony, the only government
employee who faces the same dangers and working conditions that
our firefighters face are the men and women of the armed
services, yet they are not taken off the clock and put in a
non-pay status when resting and eating. I think we would all
agree that applying such policies to the military would be as
ludicrous as it is to our firefighters.
Add to that the typical phenomenon among government
agencies where a portion of appropriated dollars somehow get
lost before reaching their intended targets, in this case fire
managers who need to staff and equip their firefighters for the
season, and you begin to understand why it is time for Congress
to takes action on these issues.
The opposition from the government agencies is nothing new.
We faced it head-on when dealing with the Department of Defense
and OPM in the mid to late 1990's when working for pay reform
for Federal firefighters employed by DOD, and again as I
mentioned in 1999 and 2000 with H.R. 2814. On each occasion
Congress understood the need for such reforms and passed our
legislation.
While the opposition isn't surprising, it's disappointing
and difficult to understand given that it is these same
government entities that have time and again over years and
years identified these same reform measures as practices and
policies that need to be adopted.
We find ourselves in the 21st century responding to a
variety of incidents and environments yet being managed through
archaic, out of date policies. Quite simply, current pay and
personnel policies created a number of dynamics all converging
in a convoluted and never ending viscous cycle.
There are approximately 16,000 employees in the 4624
technician series. Of that about 54 percent are permanent. The
remaining are seasonal and temporary firefighters who don't
receive basic healthcare for risking their lives.
Additionally, for years the Forest Service has relied upon
other non-primary firefighting Forest Service employees to
perform collateral duties on wildfires. We have identified
these employees as the militia in our written testimony.
Despite the Forest Service still relying on such employees, a
number of studies report that the number of militia personnel
actually responding to wildfires continues to decline
substantially as a result of antiquated policies and for a
variety of other reasons.
Further, recruitment and retention, always an issue in many
Federal occupations as a result of lower pay and benefits than
their private counterpart, continues to be a major problem on
individual forests in the west regardless of the more
optimistic picture painted by the agencies and administration.
Retention rates in some areas are less than 50 percent. On
other forests, vacancies simply cannot get filled. Let us also
not forget that in 1990 the first President Bush signed the
Federal Employees Pay Comparability Act [FEPCA], into law. It
was designed to help close the disparity in pay between Federal
employees and their counterparts in the private sector.
However, each year since its enactment provisions of the law
are not properly radically implemented.
As a result of serious recruitment and retention problems
in the primary Federal wildland firefighters, and the ever
increasing reluctance on the part of the members of the militia
to respond to fires, the land management agencies have become
more and more reliant on cooperative agreements with State and
local fire chief agencies as well as private for-profit
contract companies.
There is no doubt that cooperative agreements with such
fire agencies in a number of cases are crucial to prompt
responses to wildfires each season to a point. The inherent
higher cost of such resources, often substantially higher than
comparable personnel and equipment from the Federal land
management agencies, must be looked at and is in our opinion
one of the greatest causes for the skyrocketing costs of
wildfire suppression across the country.
Not only do these higher costs impact our Nation's
taxpayers, the negative financial impact it has on the
government's own wildland firefighters fuels the continuing
loss of qualified, well trained, at taxpayers' expense I must
add, Federal wildland firefighters causing the recruitment and
retention problems we referred to.
The concept of equal pay for equal work should be in the
Federal Government to ensure it retains its work force whose
training and expertise, in the case of wildland firefighters,
should be considered an investment by the taxpayers and the
protection of this country's natural resources as well as the
real and personal property.
Instead the financial inequities faced by our Federal
wildland firefighters between themselves and their counterparts
breeds low moral and creates sufficient incentive for these
firefighters to leave the Federal service. As a result, as
recent GAO studies have shown, the current cache of fire
management personnel are closing in on retirement while those
that should be preparing for long careers to take on such
manager assignments are rapidly leaving for better pay and
benefits outside of the Federal system after receiving
significant training.
Given that it may take 17 to 25 years of training and
experience to become a type I or type II incident commander, it
becomes quite clear that current archaic policies must be
amended to rebuild the ranks of Federal wildland firefighting
staffing. Unfortunately instead of reforming pay and personnel
policies to assure the survival of the Federal wildland fire
service and increase the return on our taxpayers' investment by
giving them the greatest bang for their buck, land management
agencies seem content on relying on more expensive cooperators
and contractors to fill the ever increasing gaps in wildfire
staffing assignments.
The question is why. The answer is simple. These agencies
have no incentive to change the way in which they do business.
They have no true incentive to become more cost effective and
efficient. There is virtually no oversight and no one to be
held responsible for irresponsible fiscal policy. Historically
Congress will ultimately fund the fire suppression costs,
whether they do it at 100 percent of the preparedness budgets
or provide a supplemental appropriations at the end of the
season.
In recent years some in Congress have chastised the chief
of the Forest Service for borrowing funds from other projects
to pay for suppression. Yet in the end Congress provides the
necessary funds to restore those projects and pay for all
suppression expenses regardless of the cost.
We firmly believe that many in Congress are totally unaware
of the enormous cost expended by the land management agencies
to pay for contracts and cooperators and salaries and
associated costs as compared to what they pay their own Federal
wildland firefighters.
So as to avoid being redundant with the written testimony,
the FWFSA has clearly outlined a variety of these costs and
significantly higher rates in their written testimony. Congress
has begun to pose questions of the land management agencies
about the ever increasing cost of fires. Unfortunately the
answers they get are not necessarily consistent with what our
firefighters see in the field.
And inevitably, despite receiving the necessary funding for
suppression, the land management agency often redirect those
funds targeted for fire suppression to other projects, such as
the human resources department move to New Mexico. As a result,
our firefighters are told they can't hire seasonal
firefighters, can't properly staff engines, and at the same
time the agencies are more than willing to pay significantly
higher costs to contractors and cooperators. It simply doesn't
make sense.
Mr. Porter. Excuse me, Casey. Let me remind you that we've
gone a little beyond five, so maybe you could summarize it a
little bit for us and we'll allow Ryan to----
Mr. Judd. OK. And I was going to--with all due respect to
Mr. Beaman, and those folks that he represents, they have a
difference, a distinct difference as you well know of the fact
that they can negotiate pay and benefits. As Federal employees
we can't.
We have provided some examples in our written testimony. If
we're looking at the disparities or inequities, we want to
remind you that the Federal Government, our firefighters' boss,
pays these contractors and cooperators at a much higher basic
rate, portal-to-portal pay plus a 17 percent administrative fee
plus backfill costs plus a number of other costs associated
with them. They'll put them in motels. They put us under a tent
in the dirt.
And I just want to leave you with one comment if I could
from a female firefighter in Montana. In referring to OPM's
draft letter in opposition of H.R. 408 she writes, ``Have them
take a standards test and a pack test then send them out to a
crappy piece of land somewhere. Well, and give them the bad
yellow TSA line gear and the yellow gloves made by the society
for the blind and inmate crews. Have them chink line in poison
oak and manzanita for about 2 weeks with bad contractors' food,
green meat for lunches. It may change their attitude.'' She
finishes with, ``The people sitting in their offices never
built a house. It was the man swinging the hammer.''
Mr. Porter. Thank you.
Mr. Judd. With that I'm more than happy to answer any
questions.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Judd follows:]
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Mr. Porter. She is not very happy.
Mr. Judd. She is a little spitfire.
Mr. Porter. Ryan.
STATEMENT OF RYAN BEAMAN
Mr. Beaman. Good morning, Mr. Chairman. I just want to say
thank you for letting me have the opportunity here today to
speak in front of you and the committee, and also thank your
staff for how helpful they've been in this process. I'm Ryan
Beaman.
Mr. Porter. Maybe we should give them portal-to-portal pay
probably.
Mr. Beaman. I'm Ryan Beaman, southern district vice
president for the Professional Firefighters of Nevada and a
member of the International Association of Fire Fighters. I'm
here today to express support for two bills introduced into the
109th Congress.
The first bill is H.R. 697, Federal Firefighters Fairness
Act, that was introduced by Congresswoman Joanne Davis and
Congresswoman Lois Capps.
Firefighters are exposed on a daily basis to stress, smoke,
heat and various toxic substances. As a result, firefighters
are far more likely to contract heart disease, lung disease and
other cancers than any other profession. Firefighters
increasingly assume the role of the Nation's leading providers
of emergency medical services and are exposed to many
infectious diseases. Heart disease, lung disease and cancer and
infectious disease are now the leading cause of disability and
death for firefighters. Numerous studies have found that these
illness are direct occupational hazards for firefighters.
In recognition of this link, nearly 40 States have enacted
presumptive disability laws which presume that cardiovascular
disease, cancer and infectious diseases are job related for the
purposes of workers' compensation and disability retirement
unless proven otherwise. No such law covers Federal
firefighters employed by the Federal Government.
Our Nation's Federal firefighters have some of the most
hazardous and sensitive jobs in our country. While protecting
our national interests on military installations, nuclear
facilities, VA hospitals and other Federal facilities, they are
routinely exposed to toxic substances, biohazards, temperature
extremes and stress.
Under the Federal Employee Compensation Act, Federal
firefighters must be able to pinpoint the precise incident or
exposure that caused a disease for it to be considered job
related. This burden of proof is extraordinarily difficult for
firefighters to meet because they respond to a wide variety of
emergency calls consistently working in different environments
under different conditions. As a result, very few cases of
occupational disease contracted by firefighters have been
deemed to be service connected.
The presumption is rebuttable, meaning the illness would
not be considered job related if the employing agency can
demonstrate that the illness likely has another cause. For
example, a firefighter who smokes would not be able to receive
a line-of-duty disability for lung cancer. But the burden of
proof would be on the employer rather than the injured employee
or his or her family.
It is fundamentally unfair that firefighters employed by
the Federal Government are not eligible for the disability
retirement for the same occupational disease as their municipal
counterparts. This disparity is especially glaring in incidents
where Federal firefighters work alongside municipal
firefighters during mutual aid responses and are exposed to the
same hazardous conditions.
If the Federal Government wants to be able to recruit and
retain qualified firefighters, they must be able to offer a
benefits package that is competitive with the municipal sector.
H.R. 697 amends the Federal Employee Compensation Act to
create a rebuttable presumption that cardiovascular disease,
certain cancers and infectious diseases are job related for the
purposes of workers' compensation and disability retirement.
Mr. Chairman, we also are here to speak on the other bill
that everybody else is here, which is H.R. 408 that was
introduced by Congressman Richard Pombo.
Mr. Porter. Ryan, can I interrupt you for a moment.
Mr. Beaman. Yes.
Mr. Porter. I'm kind of going off of protocol, but the H.R.
697----
Mr. Beaman. Yes.
Mr. Porter. And I guess 697 covers infectious disease also.
Mr. Beaman. Yes.
Mr. Porter. So it's similar to what we passed here in
Nevada, correct.
Mr. Beaman. Correct. In the State of Nevada we do have
presumptive benefit for infectious diseases.
Mr. Porter. So that's one bill, and the 408 is the other
one.
Mr. Beaman. The 408 is what everybody else is here to talk
about.
Mr. Porter. Because I remember the testimony when I was in
the legislature and supported it.
Mr. Beaman. Yes, you did.
Mr. Porter. And I know from the infectious disease side
there's certain challenges too, especially in the rescue end.
But it's not normally protocol to discuss another bill in the
midst of 408, but I'm glad you brought it up.
Mr. Beaman. We thought it was an important issue that
definitely affects Federal firefighters, and we're here today
to talk about those issues.
The second bill being H.R. 408 that was introduced by
Congressman Richard Pombo. This legislation would correct the
problems of portal-to-portal compensation for wildland
firefighters.
As most of you know, Federal firefighters are called out on
a moment's notice to battle fires and support other emergency
incidents all over the United States as well as other countries
on occasion. In these instances firefighters are compensated
for their travel and the work time only. These firefighters are
not compensated whatsoever for being away from their home and
families.
In other words, it makes no difference in pay for wildland
firefighters to be away from their home for an extend period of
time. These firefighters have fought fires throughout the
western United States, eastern United States, Canada and
Alaska. They have been pre-positioned for fires in other States
and only work 8 hour shifts as if they were at home with no
extra compensation for this duty.
They may be literally thousands of miles away from home but
get paid as if they were going home every night to the comforts
of their home and family.
Frequently crews have been utilized in a fire suppression
strategy known as ``Coyote Tactics.'' This implies that we
construct fire-lines all day then just before dark we receive a
helicopter sling loaded with military rations, drinking water
and paper sleeping bags delivered to our fire-line location.
Once they are provided these items of survival, they go off the
pay clock while remaining on the fire-line.
Firefighters have lost a lot of sleep with the ongoing
concern of fire spread and fire behavior during these
incidents. Sleeping in the dirt on some ridge top in Montana 75
miles from the nearest community is not the same as going home
at night once your shift is over, yet the compensation is the
same, that is, without pay.
They do not have the freedom to engage in personal freedoms
during these periods as we would at home. Instead they are
usually trying to dry off the sweat often around a campfire
before their bodies begin to chill while they are at complete
mercy of the incident. It is a rugged environment on the
borderline of heat exhaustion and dehydration at times and
hypothermia at others.
Sometimes in the 24-hour period they go weeks without a
shower or even washing their hands on some assignments, yet
they are compensated the same as if they were returning to
their homes every night and the luxuries of a hot meal, shower
and bed. They are not getting any additional compensation yet
they are making the sacrifices left and right.
The Federal lands that they protect contain some of the
most rugged terrain in the United States. Firefighters work
long hours on steep slopes and a ration of water to make it
through the shift. They carry all the necessary provisions of
survival on their backs while they perform these arduous
duties. Work shifts on these assignments are usually 14 to 16
hours long and last up to 21 days.
Sleep is something that the wildland firefighters usually
do not get enough of during these assignments. As during your
off time in a fire camp situation, you can spend a lot of time
of your programmed sleep standing in lines to eat, shower and
use portable toilets. These situations are uncomfortable, lack
good sanitation and are sleep depriving, yet they are paid as
if they're going home every shift which means there is no pay
during the nonworking hours. In these cases working 16 hour
shifts during your 8 hours off a firefighter gets 5 to 6 hours
of sleep.
Sometimes the incident commander deems the fire camp
closed. This means that firefighters are confined to the
perimeter of the fire camp. Firefighters in these cases are
treated no different than prisoners during non-paid hours.
Imagine being told you're off the clock but you can't leave the
premise, yet it would give the appearance of a violation of
one's civil rights.
Another example of the need for portal-to-portal pay
compensation occurs when firefighters are off duty after shift
and they're not restricted to fire camp. Firefighters may be
visiting a nearby community unavailable during an off shift
time when an emergency need occurs and they cannot be found.
Many, many times over the years they have been awakened
while in fire camp to engage in fire suppression activities due
to structures or control lines being threatened. Sometimes
these critical occurrences last 24 to 48 hours. The bottom line
is the crew's supervisor cannot retain complete control of the
resources during off-pay non-pay status.
With the common exposure of heat exhaustion, dehydration
and muscle fatigue, to mention a few, incidents need to be
managed to allow for a maximum recovery to personnel between
their work shift as well as maintain control of the troops for
their availability should the need occur.
In this part of the country, county, city and State
cooperators are paid portal-to-portal pay when they fight
Federal wildland fires. It appears unjust that the Federal
wildland agency would pay their competitors round the clock to
help put out the fires on Federal lands when not returning to
their home unit after shift, yet these same agencies do not pay
their own firefighters at the same incidents.
This decreases the morale of the troops to know that
someone working side by side with them is compensated with
consistent pay while the Federal wildland firefighters are off
the clock. This issue has escalated in the last several years
as personnel availability in the Federal work force has
shrunken drastically. This is due to qualified personnel
retiring with an insufficient younger work force in their place
and the fact that many qualified personnel are discouraged to
do the same job as their competitors yet receive a much lower
compensation.
The Federal wildland agencies agree that portal-to-portal
pay is needed, but I'm not certain that they are persuing this
for the reasons previously mentioned.
I'll just kind of summarize and I'll get to my end here. A
realistic portal-to-portal pay compensation would be like that
of the cooperators who are employed and provide for
compensation for wildland firefighters while assigned to the
emergency incidents for being away from their homes and
families and enduring the rather primitive environment the
incident offers, and provide for the necessary control of
resource personnel on incidents to increase firefighter
efficiency.
The Federal wildland firefighting work force has aged
progressively over the last two decades. Retention of the
newest employees is a problem. In some areas, such as southern
California, the numbers are staggering and firefighters are
opting to leave to go to other cooperating agencies which
provide better pay, incentives and year round employment.
Quite simply, the portal-to-portal pay is that wildland
firefighters are only paid for the hours they are actually
performing duties even when they are assigned to fire camp
hundreds of miles away from their home. H.R. 408 entitles a
wildland firefighter employed by the Department of Agriculture
or the Department of the Interior to compensation for the
entire period of time such firefighter is engaged in officially
ordered or approved duties in responding to a wildland fire or
other emergency.
Mr. Chairman, I'd just like to say again thank you for the
opportunity to give testimony here today. I would also like to
offer I'm a good friend of Steve McClintock's also, and I send
his family condolences. As you know, his sister was a volunteer
firefighter for Cal-Nev-Ari also. And her passing of cancer
definitely is something I'd like to put on the record.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Beaman follows:]
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Mr. Porter. Thank you for mentioning that.
Ryan, I'll ask you a question first. So is the arrangement
with the county, cities, are they called cooperators then?
Mr. Beaman. Yes. And we've been on the line with them
numerous times. They've called us out for the incident.
Mr. Porter. Is that negotiated.
Mr. Beaman. Negotiated with the----
Mr. Porter. Yeah, the amount, the pay, you know. Maybe this
is more for Bob.
Mr. Beaman. It might be.
Mr. Porter. Is that negotiated per community? How does that
work for the cooperators.
Mr. Dudley. It's through--excuse me, Mr. Chairman. It's
through statewide agreements, that's the first setup, and then
also local agreements between different municipalities.
Mr. Porter. Do you do like an annual review of those or how
does that work.
Mr. Dudley. Yes, sir. Every State--here in the State of
Nevada there is an operating plan that is signed yearly by all
the cooperators.
Mr. Porter. I see. Thank you.
For both of you, what would be the No. 1 issue facing
Federal firefighters in southern Nevada today? If there were
one thing, what would it be, I mean whether it be equipment or
pay or food or facilities, what would it be?
Mr. Judd. I think because it's been so longstanding, that
the classification issue. When we testified before for Forest,
Forest and Health, and again with the Civil Service, that
question was asked of our previous president, and he said
without a doubt, although it may not provide as much financial
benefit as portal-to-portal pay, the classification, if you
will, is probably the most endearing issue to our firefighters.
They've become firefighters. They've become multitasked.
Their off-season time is occupied, as far as the information we
get from the field, doing fire preparedness, running on calls,
planning. Of course planning is a part of any fire
organization. Hiring, firing, maintaining equipment. It's
evolved to the point where the preponderance of their time is
now geared toward not only the fire season but preparing for
fire season.
Mr. Porter. Ryan, what do you think.
Mr. Beaman. I would definitely say in the classification
also. You know, in working on the same line as with the Federal
firefighters we respond, and Nellis Air Force Base is
definitely one within the county, and we're standing side by
side with them and definitely, you know, they always ask, you
know, if we would like to have same type of benefits that you
do. And that's why I brought forward the presumptive benefits.
Mr. Porter. Back to the presumptive disability. As you
explained your testimony, firefighters often have a difficult
time proving illness obtained or work related even though many
studies show that these certain illnesses are related. Can you
explain how establishing this presumptive disability clause
would help firefighters be protected in their work? Now, I
understand from the benefit perspective, but how will it help
also for the record with the work environment?
Mr. Beaman. Well, they would know that their family is
going to be protected if they do come down with any type of
heart or lung or cancerous type of problem that they know going
into that structure as a Federal firefighters for like Nellis
would be known that they'd be being protected, not just
themselves but their family. So it would definitely help them.
Mr. Porter. Do you think it will change then the working
conditions or environment in any way?
Mr. Beaman. I don't believe.
Mr. Judd. If I could add on that.
Mr. Porter. Please.
Mr. Judd. Being a former DOD firefighter this is just
another example of the fire service evolving. You know, we've
gone from carts and horses in firefighting to EMS, hazardous
materials, level A entries and so forth. Now it takes probably
far more brain than brawn to be a firefighter.
And with respect to infectious diseases, the incident of
training and the required training for DOD firefighters, and
I'm sure for all firefighters, increased significantly over the
last few years, of course with AIDS and other infectious
diseases, TB.
Of course there was a recent news article that the cases of
TB are skyrocketing with immigration and so forth. And while it
won't stop us from doing our job, it will allow us to identify
the precautions we need to take and develop the training
mechanisms to ensure that we're protected as best we can.
Mr. Porter. Do you know some individuals who have had
problems.
Mr. Judd. Oh, absolutely. McClellan Air Force Base was one
of the most toxically polluted bases in the air force industry
where I was stationed. They literally worked with the Nuclear
Regulatory Commission during the cold war. They uncovered
plutonium and uranium below our training site after the base
closed. And fortunately I don't think I heard of any nastiness.
Military facilities, again because of regulation over the
years, have not had to comply as private industry does. And so
the incidents of making contact with these industrial sites,
which, of course, have all sorts of chemicals, is extremely
high. I mean, our caseload was probably more HazMat than
anything else in the last few years that the base was open.
Mr. Porter. Some day we'll talk about Yucca Mountain. That
would be for the next hearing.
You had touched about--Casey, you talked about the
retention problem. Can you spend a little more time on that?
Mr. Judd. Sure. And, again, you get the full spectrum.
We've got a forest in northern California, and a lot of people
ask, well, is this just a California issue. Well, let's make it
very clear. Wildfires is a western issue, and that's just the
way it is, and California is a microcosm for the wildfire
issue.
But as an example of the Six Rivers National Forest, 35 to
40 positions remain vacant. The guy can't--the deputy chief of
the forest can't hire anybody. He cannot get anybody in to fill
those vacancies. He's almost resigned to actually hiring a
recruiter to be able to bring people in there.
One of the apprentice programs, one of the best in the
Nation, if not the best in the Nation, is at McClellan Air
Force Base now. The Forest Service apprentice can come in and
learn their craft and so forth.
And while figures may demonstrate that we get a lot of
recruits in, of course we have a number of settlement
agreements that require a certain hiring from different
demographics and so forth, we may get a number of recruits in
but their retention after 2 years is suspect. I mean, most of
the forests that report to me show a less than 50 percent
retention rate for these folks coming into the system.
And just as with DOD firefighting, you leave the fence, you
hop the fence to the municipality. I mean, you're getting
better pay and better benefits out the gate. Why not take
advantage of significant training at taxpayer expense courtesy
of the Federal Government, put yourself on a pedestal to these
municipal firefighters and they'll pluck you out in no time at
all. And it's not a unique situation in wildland firefighting,
but it is unique to the Federal system as a whole in a number
of occupations.
So I think the OPM representative was accurate in the sense
that these could be regional, but I think if you look at the
west in and of itself in the 12 contiguous States, the actual
figures and you go from forest to forest you'd find that there
are, in fact, issues of retention and recruitment.
Mr. Porter. How will passage of 408 decrease our dependence
on cooperators.
Mr. Judd. I'm glad you asked that. Again we're not
suggesting we eliminate contractors and cooperators. They play
a very vital role that we think they've become--the land
management agencies have become over-reliant on them. What 408
would do is hopefully provide a direction from Congress to the
land management agencies to redefine how they spend their fire
suppression dollars.
They could conceivably reduce their reliance on a
contractor or cooperator, hire another Federal seasonal
firefighter and still save money on a daily basis, save more
than enough money to provide that seasonal firefighter with
health benefits.
And so that's what we see is that, you know, again, since
Congress gives them as much money as they want, there is no
incentive to change policies. They've consistently said, well,
408 throws money at it. No, we're suggesting that you can do
this within your budget parameters now, just as we suggested
with DOD in 1994 through 1998.
And they have done it within their budget parameters, but
it will take a mindset change from the leadership of these
agencies to say, hey, we can be more cost effective and
efficient. We can improve the staffing and stem the tide of
recruitment and retention and save money at the same time. And
hopefully our written testimony has provided some data that
allows a color picture, if you will, on how that can be
achieved.
Mr. Porter. Your written testimony, and you touched upon it
verbally, was regarding the healthcare coverage for seasonal
firefighters. What should we be doing different.
Mr. Judd. I think if the government is going to hire
seasonal, some are entry level, some have a number of seasons
behind them, and obviously it's good to tap into their
experience level. Some seasonal folks want to be permanent,
some seasonal folks like to be seasonal.
But I think any time the Federal Government is going to
hire somebody with the clear understanding that they're going
to risk their lives on a daily basis to protect the natural
resources of this country, and the taxpayers' real and personal
property, No. 1, they ought to maybe bring them in at rates a
little higher than GS-2; and No. 2, provide them with basic
health coverage. I can't think of anything more basic than if
you're going to ask somebody to not sit in an office
environment and risk their lives. I can't make it any more
complex than that.
Mr. Porter. Let's say that this young man that I met
earlier today that's a seasonal employee, let's say he gets a
disease or has some problem, of course there's workers'
compensation, but his injury could actually prevent him from
becoming a firefighter full time, correct.
Mr. Judd. Absolutely.
Mr. Porter. Something happens to him today in the seasonal
status, he could be hurt so he would not get back into the
system. What would happen to him.
Mr. Judd. Go back to washing cars I guess. I really don't
know. The people that enter the Federal wildland firefighting
service are a different breed. I've had the luxury of being
associated with the International Association of Firefighters
and structural entities and so forth. When you get to the
wildland folks, when you see them, they're mountain people. You
know, they just put on an aura of just real genuineness.
And they truly want to be there and doing it because of
their love of nature because of the business and so forth. But
at some point you can't raise a family 3,000 miles away without
trying to find a way to stay in a paid status. And I touched on
in the written testimony too that although there are policies
in place to limit the amount of time on a fire-line, it
happens, people will find a way to stay on the fire-line while
they're away from home simply to be on a paid status.
What does that do? That increases the safety risks. If
they're in a paid status reports have found, No. 1, you have
more control over them. Again these reports are 20 years ago.
You have more control over them, you have less likelihood of
safety issues and so forth.
Mr. Porter. How often do you think these individuals are
away from their home portal a year.
Mr. Judd. Well, the room would have been filled if they
weren't away now. As a matter of fact, again, we were hoping to
have additional written testimony. I talked to a guy that was
preparing written testimony just a few days ago from the Sierra
National Forest in California. He's been in Arizona for 5 days
and hasn't even seen the fire camp.
Again it's a lot of pre-positioning, a lot of planning and
so forth and so on, but they can, you know, 14 to 21 days, but
again you can consume that 21 days, have a day or two of rest
and you're right back on the fire-line.
And again these folks aren't whining. I'll be the one to
whine for them. They love it. But at some point in time you've
got to look at, as they said, the big picture and look at the
costs associated with the skyrocketing costs of firefighting.
And how do we fix it. How do we, No. 1, take care of our
firefighters; No. 2, provide the service to the taxpayer. And
out of those I clearly obviously disagree with OPM that 408
actually meets those.
Mr. Porter. There has been some testimony presented even
prior and some calculations run that many critics would say 408
would increase pay by 90 percent. I assume you don't agree with
that.
Mr. Judd. I don't buy it. We poured over example after
example. We took our folks' pay grades and looked at it and so
forth. And again I haven't seen the final version of OPM's
letter. We saw the draft letter referencing something like 390
percent of this and that and so forth, and we couldn't come up
with anything more than 75 percent basic pay.
Again we're not asking to throw that money at the fire
service, we're asking to maybe take a little bit away from the
contractors and cooperators and redirect it to our country's
very own firefighters. We're not asking to add more to the
transportation bill. No, it's all right. Take that off the
record. At least I got a laugh out of you folks. That's why it
was sensible and we have to market this to both sides of the
aisle and we have to make it cost effective. But it's going to
rely on the agencies to do their part.
Mr. Porter. If I understood correctly earlier testimony,
that ranges by $34,000 a year to what level would it be? I
guess here's the question: What would the range be? I don't
know the numbers as well. I know the GS numbers, but is it
$34,000 to $60,000 or what would it be in pay for base.
Mr. Vaught. Mr. Chairman, I'm guessing, and maybe I can get
some help here, but it would be around $25,000 to $60,000 I
believe.
Mr. Porter. $25,000 to $60,000.
Mr. Vaught. Up to grade GS-13.
Mr. Porter. So what would you see, Casey, this is a
question for you, with 408 where would that person making
$25,000 be at the end of the year.
Mr. Judd. Maybe $32,000. You know, as an example, our
deputy chief of the Federal service, the cost to the
government, which includes benefits and so forth, maybe $45 an
hour. The municipal down the street that goes on a fire call,
they're $190 an hour.
You know, we're hearing about the DOD firefighters and
their grades are reduced because of this or because of that,
they get paid for meals and sleep time. Well, that needs to be
fixed too. I mean, we're in the 21st century. Firefighters, the
vast majority of paid professional firefighters across the
country are paid whether they go on a call or not. They're paid
to be available, to respond. We're not asking any more than to
be paid while we're actually on an emergency incident.
And I think Ryan would agree. You are paid to be there. And
OPM's own guidelines that we put in our written testimony seem
to conflict with that where they say Federal agencies can take
an employee off the clock for 8 hours for meal and sleep time,
yet it says that they are so confined and enclosed to the
government's location that they can't perform their own duties
as normal then they would be in a paid status. So we're not the
ones that wrote these things, but they seem to be conflicting
as well.
Mr. Porter. Really one more formal question then we're
going to have to conclude. But, Ryan, what message should I
take back to my colleagues from Nevada regarding firefighting,
whether it be local or Federal, what message should I take
back.
Mr. Beaman. We just want everybody to be treated the same,
if it's professional firefighters out here, Clark County, city
of Las Vegas to our brothers that are the Federal firefighters,
everybody should be paid the same for doing the same type of
line of work.
Mr. Porter. Thank you. Well, I assure you that the cost
question, I'm going to make that a priority. Also in working
with the pay and benefits portion and the bill that you
mentioned earlier, the presumptive, what's that number.
Mr. Beaman. That was H.R. 697.
Mr. Porter. As a priority and working with Chairman Pombo
on his bill. I think there's a lot of merit and I'll do
everything I can to see that we can improve some of the
benefits and pay for firefighters.
I will pass this information on to my colleagues, and I
know that they're very, very interested and very concerned. And
know that you're saving a lot of lives and you're also saving a
lot of people's life savings and personal investments because
of what you do. We really appreciate it.
I remember reading a book probably 10, 15 years ago about a
fire, a wildland fire somewhere in Montana where a bunch of
folks died. I don't remember the book, but it talks about the
rigors of fighting the fire. And it was in Montana on the side
of a mountain, and it was very vivid in its explanation of the
challenges for the firefighters. So know that I'm doing what I
can to help. I'd suggest you read the book if I can remember
the name of it.
Mr. Judd. I appreciate that. Of course we'd be delighted to
come back to D.C. any time and chat with anybody who needs to
be chatted with.
Mr. Porter. Thank you. And with that we'll adjourn the
meeting. Of course Members will have additional time to submit
their testimony that have any questions forwarded to all those
that testified today. Anything else I need to add for the
record.
We'll adjourn the meeting. Thank you all very much.
[Whereupon, at 12:48 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
[The prepared statements of Hon. Danny K. Davis and Hon.
Richard W. Pombo, and additional information submitted for the
hearing record follow:]
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