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DRUGS AND GANGS IN McHENRY COUNTY
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HEARING
before the
SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL SECURITY,
INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS, AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE
of the
COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT
REFORM AND OVERSIGHT
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED FIFTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
JULY 7, 1997
__________
Serial No. 105-86
__________
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COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT
DAN BURTON, Indiana, Chairman
BENJAMIN A. GILMAN, New York HENRY A. WAXMAN, California
J. DENNIS HASTERT, Illinois TOM LANTOS, California
CONSTANCE A. MORELLA, Maryland ROBERT E. WISE, Jr., West Virginia
CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Connecticut MAJOR R. OWENS, New York
STEVEN SCHIFF, New Mexico EDOLPHUS TOWNS, New York
CHRISTOPHER COX, California PAUL E. KANJORSKI, Pennsylvania
ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida GARY A. CONDIT, California
JOHN M. McHUGH, New York CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York
STEPHEN HORN, California THOMAS M. BARRETT, Wisconsin
JOHN L. MICA, Florida ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, Washington,
THOMAS M. DAVIS, Virginia DC
DAVID M. McINTOSH, Indiana CHAKA FATTAH, Pennsylvania
MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland
JOE SCARBOROUGH, Florida DENNIS J. KUCINICH, Ohio
JOHN B. SHADEGG, Arizona ROD R. BLAGOJEVICH, Illinois
STEVEN C. LaTOURETTE, Ohio DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois
MARSHALL ``MARK'' SANFORD, South JOHN F. TIERNEY, Massachusetts
Carolina JIM TURNER, Texas
JOHN E. SUNUNU, New Hampshire THOMAS H. ALLEN, Maine
PETE SESSIONS, Texas HAROLD E. FORD, Jr., Tennessee
MICHAEL PAPPAS, New Jersey ------
VINCE SNOWBARGER, Kansas BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont
BOB BARR, Georgia (Independent)
ROB PORTMAN, Ohio
Kevin Binger, Staff Director
Daniel R. Moll, Deputy Staff Director
William Moschella, Deputy Counsel and Parliamentarian
Judith McCoy, Chief Clerk
Phil Schiliro, Minority Staff Director
------
Subcommittee on National Security, International Affairs, and Criminal
Justice
J. DENNIS HASTERT, Chairman
MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana THOMAS M. BARRETT, Wisconsin
CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Connecticut TOM LANTOS, California
STEVEN SCHIFF, New Mexico ROBERT E. WISE, Jr., West Virginia
ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida GARY A. CONDIT, California
JOHN M. McHUGH, New York ROD R. BLAGOJEVICH, Illinois
JOHN L. MICA, Florida CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York
JOHN B. SHADEGG, Arizona ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland
STEVEN C. LaTOURETTE, Ohio JIM TURNER, Texas
BOB BARR, Georgia
Ex Officio
DAN BURTON, Indiana HENRY A. WAXMAN, California
Robert Charles, Staff Director/Chief Counsel
Sean Littlefield, Professional Staff Member
C O N T E N T S
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Page
Hearing held on July 7, 1997..................................... 1
Statement of:
Cole, Jerome; Derrick Smith; Pam Maakestad; Jerry Skogmo,
program director, Renz Addiction Counseling Center; Carlos
Chavez, Renz Addiction Counseling Center; and Les Lunsmann,
Communities Against Gangs.................................. 4
LeFew, Bill, Communities Against Drugs; Michael Zawadzki, DEA
Agent from Chicago; Sheriff Nygren, McHenry County; Gary
Pack, State's attorney, McHenry County; William Morley,
Assistant Special Agent in Charge of the Chicago Field
Office, Drug Enforcement Administration.................... 34
Manzulo, Hon. Don, a Representative in Congress from the
State of Illinois.......................................... 3
Letters, statements, etc., submitted for the record by:
Cole, Jerome, prepared statement of.......................... 6
Hastert, Hon. J. Dennis, a Representative in Congress from
the State of Illinois, letter dated July 3, 1997........... 00
Maakestad, Pam, prepared statement of........................ 11
Skogmo, Jerry, program director, Renz Addiction Counseling
Center, prepared statement of.............................. 14
Smith, Derrick, prepared statement of........................ 9
DRUGS AND GANGS IN McHENRY COUNTY
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MONDAY, JULY 7, 1997
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on National Security, International
Affairs, and Criminal Justice,
Committee on Government Reform and Oversight,
Algonquin, IL.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:30 p.m., in
the Algonquin Village Hall, 2200 Harnish Drive, Algonquin, IL,
Hon. J. Dennis Hastert, presiding.
Present: Representative Hastert
Also present: Representative Manzullo.
Staff present: Robert B. Charles, staff director/chief
counsel; and Sean Littlefield, professional staff member.
Mr. Hastert. This opens our field hearing entitled Drugs
and Gangs in McHenry County. And I want to first of all welcome
everybody that's here today and especially thank the Village
Counsel and President Ted Spella, who generously made the
facilities here, very nice facilities, for us to use. So thank
you very much.
The Subcommittee on National Security, International
Affairs, and Criminal Justice will now come to order. Today
we're going to be examining the dire threat of drugs to our
kids in suburban and rural communities. When residents of these
areas think of drugs and teens, often the first thing that
comes to mind is kids in impoverished urban areas being
victimized by crack dealers and gangs. The suburbs and small
cities and McHenry and Kane Counties are generally not thought
of as places where drug abuse is a problem for teens.
Unfortunately, times have changed and this image is simply no
longer true. It's a sad fact but a harbinger of our times that
no young person in any community in America is out of the reach
of cocaine, heroin, LSD, or methamphetamines. Nor is any
community immune from the drug violence, street gangs or
trafficking which accompany the arrival of these poisons in our
midst.
Citizens in far northern and western suburban Chicago have
been shocked in recent years as we continually see the
encroachment of drugs, drug-related violence and street gangs.
No longer are we insulated from the problems that we used to
think were confined to big cities such as Chicago and Detroit,
and one need only read the recent news stories about the
seizure of $1 million worth of high grade marijuana in the
biggest drug bust in McHenry County history which occurred only
a few days ago to understand the nature of the problem.
Thanks to the good work of McHenry Country Sheriff Keith
Nygren, who is here with us today, and undercover agents of the
DEA, these drugs were prevented from invading McHenry County.
In neighboring DeKalb County, a predominantly rural area in my
congressional district, the DeKalb Chronicle recently ran a
series of articles on drug use among our teens in high school.
As a parent and a former teacher and a former coach of 16
years, I feel this problem is devastating and will require an
effort by all of us to reverse.
A few examples are illustrative. The results of the ISA
study on drug use in DeKalb high schools published this year is
a case in point. They're highly disturbing. Forty percent of
high school students polled have used marijuana. That's nearly
half of all the kids in school; 14 percent said they've used
LSD, 6 percent report using inhalants, 5 percent have tried
cocaine, and that's 1 in every 20 kids. The saddest part is
that these aren't just statistics. They're not just numbers.
These are our kids right here at home. And one more point.
These kids aren't someone else's kids in someone else's cities.
They're our kids in our communities. If they're already in
trouble with drugs now while they're in high school, what's to
make us think that they will lick the habit later in their
lives.
Numerous studies have shown that the earlier a young person
gets hooked on drugs, the more negative and longer the impact
of drugs will be on them throughout their lives. The story is
now the same wherever you go, whether it's DeKalb County or
McHenry County, DuPage County or the city of Chicago. It's not
a mystery why drugs and drug-driven crime and gangs have
invaded our communities, urban, suburban and rural.
A year ago, on behalf of the U.S. House leadership, I began
to try to pull together Republicans and Democrats alike that
are committed to finding real lasting solutions to our Nation's
drug problems and during the time that I've been involved in
this effort, I've found that traveling throughout Illinois and
certainly throughout the United States and, in some cases,
around this globe, there are people who are trying to solve the
problems. But basically those folks can't do it by themselves
and there's no one approach that's the mend all/cure all
solution.
I've also constantly looked for solutions to the places
where these dangerous drugs are produced including the remote
and dangerous places in South America and Asia. I've learned a
lot about the nature of the drug problem in America and abroad,
but one item stands out. Every aspect of drug war is inter-
connected. One aspect hooks on to another like a chain link
fence and while we've attacked every link, the success or
failure of our policies in any specific area drastically
affects the success or failure of our policies in all areas.
Fortunately, despite alarming trends in youth drug use,
especially in suburban and rural areas, not all the news is
bad. We're here today to listen to folks about their
experiences, how they got involved in drugs, if that's the
case, or what their solution is. We value you who are
testifying before us today. We value all like you who are out
there fighting the war on drugs in our communities and our
neighborhoods.
Mr. Hastert. And I'm going to yield to my colleagues, whose
district we're in this afternoon.
Mr. Manzullo. Thank you, Congressman.
Mr. Hastert. Don Manzullo.
STATEMENT OF HON. DON MANZULO, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS
FROM THE STATE OF ILLINOIS
Mr. Manzullo. It's a pleasure to be here this afternoon. I
have been involved in the study, as it were, of how people get
involved with drugs ever since 1970 when I started practicing
law in Noble County. I represented several hundred people who
have encountered problems with the law because of their
becoming addicted to drugs. This is a very, very serious
problem. The nature of it has changed throughout the past 20--
25 years.
What we do know now, is that drugs are more readily
available, they're more potent, they're cheaper, and the drugs
to which today's parents were introduced 15 and 20 years ago
when they were in high school is nothing compared to the
quality and the competency of the drugs that are on the market
today and readily available to their kids. So this is a
generational problem where one of our goals at this meeting is
try to inculcate into parents who have kids in school today
that the drugs of today are not the drugs that were in school
when they were in school. It's a much more serious and much
more difficult problem.
Because of the problem of drugs, the gangs have emerged.
McHenry County, because it's the fastest growing county in the
State of Illinois, has also become a haven for drug dealers and
for gang organizers to come out of nearby Cook County to try to
come into our peaceful rural county and to try to peddle their
wares, corrupt our kids, and destroy our culture and quality of
life in this county.
Because of the menace of drugs, I joined with Congressman
Hastert about 2 years ago, the coalition that Denny set up in
the House of Representatives. We meet approximately once a
month with some of the most high profile people in the
government who are tackling the battle against drugs on several
levels.
In addition, I assembled the 60th Congressional District
Anti-Drug Coalition last year to spur regional ideas for
fighting drug and gang activity across northern Illinois. The
congressional district that I represent runs from McHenry/Lake
County line all the way to the Mississippi River. So we have
over 600,000 people, over 50 high schools, lots of small towns
that are facing some very scary facts with regard to drugs and
gangs. The goal of coalition is to fight drug abuse among all
ages and all communities in our district.
So we look forward to hearing the testimony of those who
have been intimately involved in the struggle against drugs
and, Chairman Hastert, I appreciate your leadership in this
area.
Mr. Hastert. Well, thank you for joining me today, and at
this time I'd like to introduce our first panel. The first
three witnesses will provide a human face on the war on drugs;
one is a victim and two have been involved with gangs. All will
provide insight into the scourge of drugs in rural communities.
These three witnesses are Jerome, Derrick, and Pam Maakestad.
Jerry Skogmo is program director for the Renz Addiction
Counseling Center and Carlos Chavez works with youth prevention
programs with the Renz Addiction Counseling Center. Les
Lunsmann has been a leader in heading up the organization
Communities Against Gangs. I thank you all for being here
today. In accordance with our House rules, we will swear you in
and please stand and raise your right hands.
[Witnesses sworn.]
Mr. Hastert. Let the record show that the witnesses
answered in the affirmative. Jerome, would you please start?
STATEMENTS OF JEROME COLE; DERRICK SMITH; PAM MAAKESTAD; JERRY
SKOGMO, PROGRAM DIRECTOR, RENZ ADDICTION COUNSELING CENTER;
CARLOS CHAVEZ, RENZ ADDICTION COUNSELING CENTER; AND LES
LUNSMANN, COMMUNITIES AGAINST GANGS
Mr. Cole. Hi, my name is Jerome Cole. I know a lot about
drugs because I used drugs, I sold drugs, and also organized
groups of people to sell drugs for me. Until recently, I lived
in an area that had the highest drug use in DeKalb. The
building I lived in was referred to by the drug task force as a
haven for drug dealers. Over a 4-year period, I met many drug
dealers and drug users in the DeKalb area. I saw or took part
in a lot of drug deals in the DeKalb area. From what I saw and
what the other dealers told me, we supplied together
approximately thousands of people with marijuana, cocaine and
other drugs.
I know a lot of young kids in DeKalb that's using drugs
now. They have different names for the drugs now. They call it
weed, bud, or the most popular name now is chronic. Four years
ago, a couple of high school students came to me to purchase
some drugs and I had them sell drugs for me. Also they was
telling me that they was selling drugs to their parents and
their parents were smoking marijuana with them.
Cocaine use has leveled off in the DeKalb area as far as I
can tell. Acid use is increasing among the skateboarders and
the ``hippie types.'' Recently in DeKalb people have been
sprinkling crack cocaine on the blunt. A blunt is a cigar
that's been hollowed out. The tobacco has been hollowed out.
It's been replaced by marijuana and when they go on it to get
an extra high, they put heroin or crack cocaine, they sprinkle
it on to boost the high.
Heroin is also being used in DeKalb. I know a couple of
people in DeKalb who use heroin. They either snort it or the
hard core users, they pop it or shoot it intravenously. But
heroin is not sold in DeKalb as far as I know. DeKalb users
have to drive to Chicago to get their heroin. When the heroin
high is over, the users are usually in a lot of physical pain.
Back pains, neck pains, leg pains and different things like
that.
Looking at the drug business from the outside, now that I'm
on the outside, it seems there are only three ways to go. Stay
away from the drug scene altogether, go to a penal institution
or you end up dead. I see three types of drug users in my time
with the inner drug game: The recreational or social user which
includes respected members of the community, the person who
goes on periodic binges if they come into some extra money or
they're really upset or having problems, they may tend to use
drugs, or the person on the street that's called a ``hype.''
That's the person that's got a constant habit and will do
anything to get the drugs. I've seen many people go from
smoking pot occasionally to constant use of more serious drugs
like cocaine and heroin.
Some police have been more effective in reducing the drug
problem when they talk respectfully and get to know the drug
dealers and users and the younger people in the community.
Local church programs, job programs and youth activity programs
are also very helpful to reduce drug use.
Right now I'm a local business manager and I have hired at
least 25 people to help them stay away from drugs. I've also
helped organize youth activities locally. I have come into
contact with approximately 200 to 300 people in these positive
activities and I think church programs, jobs and sports
activities keep most kids away from drugs.
Mr. Hastert. Thank you, Jerome.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Cole follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Hastert. Derrick.
Mr. Smith. I'm Derrick Smith. I'm an academic counselor at
Northern Illinois University at the Center for Black Studies
and currently a doctoral student in adult education with
emphasis on community development.
This is my testimony. Thirty years ago, I was involved with
drug dealers and drug users in Chicago. I saw the cycles of
casual marijuana use turn to cocaine and heroin addiction. I
also saw a lot of people say no to pot, even though others
around them were using drugs. Today I work with more than 100
young people in the DeKalb area. Most of them are near the
danger zone of drug use. Some of their parents are addicted to
cocaine or abuse alcohol.
From my contact with these young people in DeKalb, I
learned about the drug use that's happening in this community.
I have seen drug dealers as young as 14 and 15 years old in
DeKalb. I have talked to five local high school age athletes
who told me about their use of weed, which is marijuana,
mushrooms, which is a hallucinogenic drug, and alcohol. I
talked to some of the drug dealers in DeKalb. Some of the kids
tell me that pot is OK to use. They don't understand that
they're opening Pandora's box when they're using pot. They
don't see the problems that can occur.
In the DeKalb area, pot is often sold by dealers with
street gang connections. Stepping into the world of pot brings
the young person closer to cocaine, acid, gangs, crime, drug
addiction, and jail. I have seen this cycle happen itself with
some people in DeKalb. I have also seen young people in DeKalb
move away from drugs when caring adults have spent time with
them and told them drugs are not tolerated here. In DeKalb,
there are church programs, sports programs, and job
opportunities that have helped kids stay away from drugs. Some
police have helped reduce drug use in DeKalb by getting to know
the young people who may use illegal drugs.
I have a lot of experience and information related to drugs
and in keeping kids away from drugs. I am available to answer
questions you may have.
Mr. Hastert. Thank you, Derrick.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Smith follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Hastert. Ms. Maakestad.
Ms. Maakestad. My name is Pam Maakestad. My son Brent
Cooper was murdered at age 17 and this is my story. My son
Brent started using drugs when he was around the age of 12. He
started off with casual use of pot. He then used it more
frequently. He started using other drugs such as acid and by
the age of 14, my son went to a 90 day in-patient
rehabilitation program. Three to four times a week I drove to
the drug rehab center in Wisconsin. I went to group counseling
sessions with my son Brent and others who had become addicted
to alcohol and marijuana at such an early age.
Brent did well in the drug rehab program and we learned a
lot. We learned that each day would be a struggle to stay away
from the alcohol and other drugs. My son stayed sober for about
a year and then he started to use drugs again. When he was 15
years old, he started to use acid and other more dangerous
drugs. Along with his drug use, he got in trouble with the law
and also started to hang around with gang members because they
sold the drugs. He hung around with the dealers and the gangs
so often that he joined the gang. Many people don't realize the
connection between casual pot use and street gangs. Even in
DeKalb County there's a connection between pot and gangs.
By 16, Brent was back in drug rehab program. Once again, he
was a model student. He graduated from the in-patient program
and decided to attend an out-patient counseling.
At age 17 he was getting his life back together. He was
trying to stay away from the drug people, but it wasn't easy.
On August 17, 1991, Brent was shot and murdered near the
courthouse in Sycamore. He was murdered by a group of people
who were involved with drugs and gangs at the time he was
murdered. Even though my son was not using drugs at the time he
was murdered, it was his past drug use that brought him to the
place where he was. If it weren't for drugs and gangs, my son
would be alive today.
On August 17th it will be 6 years that have passed since
Brent was murdered. I think of him every day, especially when I
look at his son who looks so much like him. I especially
remember one night a few weeks before he was murdered. Brent
was having a bad reaction to a drug known as Wickie stick. He
was shaking and trembling uncontrollably. I remember holding
him in my arms and rocking back and forth until the effects
wore off, and he accepted that everyone in the family was safe
and all right.
Even today I hear about local kids as young as 12 years old
who use acid and pot. A lot of kids in DeKalb also use alcohol
which can be more destructive than the illegal drugs.
I came here today to share my story in order to help other
families avoid the grief that drugs have brought to my family.
Drug and alcohol education programs find it hard to compete
with the example set at home. Many people are afraid to tell
adults to look at their own drug and alcohol use. The parents
need the drug and alcohol abuse education, too.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Maakestad follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Hastert. Thank you, Pam. I'm sorry I mispronounced your
name before. With a name like Hastert, you really can't afford
to do that very much.
Mr. Skogmo.
Mr. Skogmo. Good afternoon. My name is Jerry Skogmo. I'm
the executive director of Renz Addiction Counseling Center.
With me is Carlos Chavez, who is a key prevention specialist in
our prevention program. Carlos provides outreach preventative
activities to primarily the Hispanic population in our
catchment area.
Renz Center is a community-based nonprofit agency that has
been in operation since 1961. We now have offices in Elgin,
which is our main office, Carpentersville, Hanover Park, and
St. Charles. We provide prevention and treatment of alcohol and
substance abuse in these and neighboring communities.
I'll let Carlos comment on the prevention program.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Skogmo follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Chavez. Good afternoon.
Mr. Hastert. Good afternoon.
Mr. Chavez. I would like to apologize for my broken
English.
Mr. Hastert. Don't apologize.
Mr. Chavez. Thank you. The Renz Center Prevention Program
is a comprehensive program that utilizes the five prevention
strategies: providing culturally sensitive, age appropriate
information, educating youth and adults, training impactors,
providing alternative activities, and community mobilization.
We work collaboratively with a variety of agencies, the
schools, and individuals to empower people and communities to
remain healthy and drug free.
Our prevention staff has spent time implementing needs
assessments, researching areas/populations, and narrowing down
risk factors to create programs based on an outcome measurement
model. Working with this model allows the opportunity to
measure the impact of the work that we do. The three
populations that we are focusing on include youth in northern
Kane County, the School District 300, and Glendale Terrace
Apartments.
Prevention programming for the Latino population has also
become a primary focus for our department. We have two
bilingual/bicultural prevention specialists who are involved in
a variety of programs. Because the concept of alcohol and other
drug prevention is new to the Latino population, our prevention
specialists have spent time gaining the trust of the community.
Our programming for the Latino population includes
presentations to youths and adults, a Latin American Theater
Festival, a summer soccer league for youth, and a Spanish
language radio show in conjunction with U-46 school district.
Other activities that our prevention staff are involved in
include providing technical assistance to schools and community
groups, planning and implementing Operation Snowflake/flurry
events, training high school youth to present health
information to their peers and younger students and serving on
a variety of community coalitions, boards, and committees in
our area.
Mr. Skogmo. On the treatment side, our outpatient programs
target both youth and adults. We promote education and
abstinence and provide counseling to addicts and their
families. We have also a special program designed for women
substance abusers and women who are in relationship with an
addict. We also provide a treatment program for compulsive
gamblers through funds from the city of Elgin.
We are seeing disturbing trends in drug abuse with
adolescents. Marijuana and inhalant usage is increasing
according to our staff, and there have been but steady
increases in heroin usage in all of our catchment area, I might
add, primarily with late teens and early 20's population. In
addition, alcohol continues to be the most widely abused drug
and is often accompanied by poly drug abuse.
We have some funding concerns. There appears to be an
apparent lack of concern for funding for early intervention
programs from the State. This type of program is also important
for those, especially adolescents who have begun to experiment
with drugs. Also, the State's General Assembly chose not to act
on a Cost of Doing Business increase for fiscal year 1998. We
need to continue to sustain and upgrade our programs and our
professional staff.
Thank you for the opportunity to present this testimony to
you. We welcome questions.
Mr. Hastert. Thank you very much.
Mr. Lunsmann.
Mr. Lunsmann. Thank you. I retired recently from law
enforcement April 1st and for the 8\1/2\ years previous to
that, I worked undercover narcotics and street gangs generally
in the McHenry County area but I have worked in DeKalb County
and Kane County so I'm pretty familiar with the areas out
there.
What I found alarming was in the 8\1/2\ years I was there
the age level of the person we were arresting and sending away
to prison or into rehab went down. I think one of the youngest
people I arrested with drugs was 11 years old. I could tell you
unequivocally that there's not a school in McHenry County grade
7 and up that doesn't have some kind of drug in it, drug
activity, gang activity.
My belief is that the individuals that are working this, I
commend the county on the marijuana arrest they had last week.
It was a great job but there needs to be a different set of
standards set for younger people. We have to come up with some
kind of program to show the younger people what they're doing
wrong and not get them involved. If we eliminate the demand,
the supply is going to go away. We're not going to eliminate
this demand by arresting 40 year old drug dealers every day and
still have the 13 year old youth out there that want their
marijuana that they can pick in the rural fields of McHenry and
Kane County. We need to get people inside the schools. If it's
law enforcement, working with the school districts, the
communities, work together, fight this thing. If we have to put
some kids in jail to make them realize it's the wrong path
they're taking. We've got to stop the users from becoming users
before they are users. The D.A.R.E. programs aren't doing it.
Operation Snowball is not doing it. It's only touching a minor
amount of the children out there.
Nationally, I think the statistic is 3\1/2\ to 4 percent of
the children are getting involved in drugs and gangs. McHenry
County is fortunate. It's 1\1/2\ percent, but that's going to
rise. It's risen every year since we started monitoring ganges
and drugs in McHenry Country.
The programs we have in McHenry are great. I think for the
size of McHenry County and the influx of people coming in, the
people that are handling the drug activity and the gang
activity and the counselling are doing a good job, but it's not
enough. We have to get into youth's heads and get them off the
drugs and out of the gangs before they start getting into them.
The programs we have in place, the task force, the meg units,
the county drug agents, the local drug agents and gang agents
are doing their job, but I think getting more into the school
system--I'm not talking about education. I'm talking about with
counseling for the kids that get arrested and put into
probation for drug abuse and gang activity. The younger we get
to them, the better off we're going to be in 10 years from now.
You'll never know the effect. We don't know the effect that
D.A.R.E. has had on kids, how many kids they've kept off of
drugs. There's no statistic to measure that. But you have to do
something. You can't just keep arresting, cutting the head off
the snake because there's a lot of snakes out there. You've got
to get the kids that are buying the dope and go join the gangs.
Thanks for asking me here to testify.
Mr. Hastert. Well, thank you very much. We're going to go
around with questions and may go two rounds of questions, and
I'm going to defer to my colleague from the 17th Congressional
District, Don Manzullo, to start questions.
Mr. Manzullo. Thank you, Denny.
One of the problems, one of the many problems associated
with our subject today is a telltale sign that a child is on
drugs or getting close to drug activity. Pam, you suffered the
ultimate loss, a child, and you have another child who got
involved in drugs. Two of your three children. As a mom and
somebody who I know cares personally about their kids, what
advice do you have for parents who may think that their kids
are OK but wake up in the morning and discover that your kid
has gotten involved in drugs?
Ms. Maakestad. I believe what needs to be done is that the
parents need to be given more education or as much education as
the kids are getting. If I'd known half the things that I know
now, I may have been able to stop Brent's murder and may have
kept him from getting into the gangs and kept him from getting
into drugs. I don't know that, but it's a possibility with the
signs. After he died, I saw signs and symbols and everything.
Mr. Manzullo. What were those signs after he passed away,
Pam?
Ms. Maakestad. There were signs like gang signs with his
hats, with his clothing.
Mr. Manzullo. Explain it yourself. Tell us.
Ms. Maakestad. His clothing was basically blue and black.
He's always been a fan--I mean ever since he was a little kid,
he always liked the color blue. So when he asked for--at
Christmas time he asked if anybody got him clothes, get him
blue and black. We never thought anything about it. My
grandparents, everyone, gave him blue sweaters or blue and
black scarves or whatever. The baseball hats. He wanted the As,
Oakland As. Some of the stars, some of the drawings. He was
very good in drawing. He was all set up to go to school in
January to be an architect and so he was very good at drawing
and a lot of his drawings had gang symbols in them and I saw
the drawings but I didn't realize that they were gang symbols.
I had no idea because we had never--in Sycamore we had never
heard about gangs. When Brent was murdered, then it all came
out and they're still not admitting that it's as bad as it is
but as far as I'm concerned, I think it's worse than it ever
was.
Mr. Manzullo. So something as simple as a favorite color.
Ms. Maakestad. Favorite colors, drawings on their school
books or papers, their hats.
Mr. Manzullo. Hats.
Ms. Maakestad. Just wearing them to one side or the other.
The symbolism on their hats. Tennis shoes tied, one side tied,
the other side not. One cuff of the pant leg up, one down. Same
way with bib overalls. One side up and one down. All this, I
didn't know any of this until after he was dead.
Mr. Manzullo. Let me ask the same question of the
counselors. Mr. Chavez, I'm sure you relate to what Pam just
said and Les, if you want add in at this point because I'm very
much concerned over the fact that parents will have kids
involved in gangs and not even know it. These are just growing
up type of things. Kids go through fads. I used to have a
stocking hat. Regardless of how you put it on, that's how you
wore it and things of that nature. In any order, what other
signs or symbols should parents look for if their kids are
involved in gangs?
Mr. Lunsmann. The clothing she mentioned is predominantly
the thing to look for. If your kids are hanging with other kids
and they tend to all dress in the same color or the same type
of hats and stuff, that's a good sign. But it's more the way
the kids act. I think Pam will tell you that your kids act a
totally different way when they hang around gangs and drugs.
Their respect factor and everything goes down toward other
human beings. They only have a certain number of people they'll
even talk to. But watch for tatoos in discrete places. The
drawings are atypical. A brand new gang member, somebody that
just joined a gang, they draw all the literature and stuff for
that street gang. That's the kind of stuff you look for. The
mood swings are a big thing.
Mr. Manzullo. Tell us about the mood swings. Mr. Chavez.
Mr. Chavez. They tend to be more aggressive. They don't
listen to the parents the way they should. Another big sign is
large amount of money. They're carrying always money. It could
be through dealing drugs at the same time. Another big sign is
the friends that they have now from the gang. They're not
introduced to the parents. Now they don't invite the new
friends to the house and hang around there. So that's a big
sign that there's something going on with your kid.
All the activities that he usually liked like basketball or
anything, they're gone and again, they're more violent. They're
definitely more violent toward everybody, brothers, sisters,
parents. They don't want to attend to family activities,
picnics or anything. They refuse to.
Mr. Manzullo. Does this take place over a gradual period of
time so that the parent is sort of lulled into not thinking
there's a problem?
Mr. Chavez. Well, I believe that every kid is different and
every case is different. Sometimes parents, they are not even
aware because they're not there for the kids or they're busy
working overtime or they're working different shifts so they
don't know exactly what's going on at home. But again, it might
be very slowly changes and then all of a sudden there is a big
rebellion against the family.
Mr. Manzullo. Derrick and Jerome, you want to tackle that
question? What should parents look for to indicate to them that
their kids may be involved in gang or drug activity? What
telltale signs are there?
Mr. Cole. The clothing is probably the more prolific thing,
the different colors. Like she said, for instance, her son had
an Oakland As hat. I knew her son. He was a member of the
Ambrose so that's what the A stands for. You know, different
gangs like for the gangster disciple, a lot of them will have
the blue hats with the G on it for Georgetown. A lot of the
sports logos, you know, different colored college teams, North
Carolina Tarheels with the blue and the white. Different things
like that. You see a group of kids with their hats different
sides, wearing them to the right side or to the left. The
clothing is probably the first thing you'll notice or different
scarves. When they start wearing scarves. A red scarf or a gold
scarf or blue or black scarf. Those are the telltale signs
that, you know, they've been plugged in in the gang.
Mr. Manzullo. Derrick.
Mr. Smith. Yes. I think they just about answered, you know,
the question because clothing is the main thing and I think far
as parents, it's more of a gradual thing, you know, because you
start off and the deeper you get into it, the more aggressive
your behavior is because that's a way of life in gangs. You
know, you have to be more aggressive because you might wind up
and get you a rank and stuff like that and that's what, you
know, most of the guys who get in gangs are trying to do. Try
to get leadership roles.
Mr. Hastert. Thanks, Don.
Jerome, I'm going to go back to you. I'll go back with a
second round of questions here. But you actually came in, you
were in athletics and then got out of athletics. To kind of
fill a void in your life, you got involved in the gangs and
drugs. You were actually a recruiter. Right?
Mr. Cole. Yes, I was.
Mr. Hastert. What kind of kid did you go after and what
were the signs that you saw that you said, I can get this kid
in. What were the things, what kind of kids did you go after?
Mr. Cole. First of all, I was already involved in the
gangs. I played sports throughout high school, so the gang
members respected the fact that I was still in school. Out of
15 or 16 guys that grew up together, I was the only one still
in school playing sports, so they respected it. So my
activities in the gang wasn't ``the drive-bys or the big
fights'' and things like that because I was in school.
But the fact that I was in school and playing sports, I had
other kids that looked up to me, so I just misused that
popularity and I could have easily--if a kid was from a
dysfunctional family, not necessarily a single parent family
but if I seen that he had problems or that he needed help in
any aspect of his life, it was easy for me to pick that guy out
of the crowd and have him cross on over. I mean, you know, you
look at a kid that's looking for somebody to basically be a
role model for a kid that's dropped out of school or a kid that
got a drug problem at an early age, those are the easiest kids.
That was the easiest prey. If a kid was from a strong family
background, mother and father or just mother or father was
there and talked to them and had personal counseling with them,
I could never get that kid. But if you had any type of
dysfunction in your life and I could take advantage of that, it
was easy.
Mr. Hastert. What did the gang offer to an individual that
he couldn't get any place else?
Mr. Cole. Money, protection, family, sense of involvement.
To me, growing up in New York, coming to Chicago, it's just the
energy of a youth just misguided. If I was on a baseball team,
I know I have to go to baseball practice when I come home from
school but if I'm just coming home from school and I'm hanging
out in the 'hood, you know, and they hanging out in their 'hood
and we want to see which 'hood is the toughest, so we go. You
send a couple of guys from one place to meet up with some guys
from another place and you fight it out. That's how it started
out when I grew up in New York. But then it's escalated to OK,
my turf need money so we're going to sell drugs and I don't
want you over here on my turf, you know. And you came over on
my turf, we roll on your turf and it just goes back and forth,
back and forth, back and forth.
Mr. Hastert. So actually, the gangs and the drugs are tied
together. The drugs become the financial----
Mr. Cole. Most times they do. Drugs or guns.
Mr. Hastert. And so that's what the gang sold and the turf
comes into your sales district. Right? In a sense, what it is?
Mr. Cole. Yes, it is.
Mr. Hastert. How much money do you think an organization, a
gang, a couple of kids or you define it for me, can make in a
week selling drugs?
Mr. Cole. Countless. A lot. Nowadays, a lot.
Mr. Hastert. Which means what?
Mr. Cole. I know young drug dealers, ages 20-21, that's
millionaires. Multi-millionaires.
Mr. Hastert. That's a lot of money.
Mr. Cole. Yes, a whole lot.
Mr. Hastert. And drive nice cars and do things----
Mr. Cole [continuing]. Everything, the police paid off, the
whole nine.
Mr. Hastert. So, what happens then is kids see this and----
Mr. Cole. It's like a sports figure. He'll be glamorized.
He's the new hero. It's not the policeman, it's not the
fireman, it's not the teacher. Everybody can't be like Mike, so
the local drug dealer is the next closest thing to glamour that
the kids see.
Mr. Hastert. It gets their attention. If somebody is a
millionaire or a multi-millionaire and you're still living and
you're 18 or 20 years old----
Mr. Cole. If you're walking in the neighborhoods,
everybody, I mean everybody in the neighborhood, law officials,
everything, talk to you as if you're a celebrity. I mean that's
what it's become now. The drug dealers are the new heroes and
the new celebrities because of artificial things like cars and
gold chains and different things like that. I've seen that
first hand.
Mr. Hastert. Derrick, you had kind of a similar entry into
this thing. You came out of the city of Chicago and were an
athlete and then were involved with gangs and you did some
recruiting, too, didn't you, as a gang recruiter?
Mr. Smith. I didn't do too much recruiting as far as when I
came out of Chicago. I did a little recruiting while I was in
Chicago. Like Jerome was saying, being a sports figure, you
know you can get a following and it's how you want to direct
that following. Like he said, those that are weak and those
wannabes that want to be part of you, want to do the things
you're doing. It was easy, you know, to direct them to the
wrong place and do the wrong things.
But when I came to--when I went to NIU, you know, I went by
way of a junior college and I was playing sports. When I
stepped on campus, I was basically just trying to find somebody
to deal drugs for me. I wasn't trying to recruit because during
weekends I'd have the guys from Chicago come up and we'd make
plans about what we wanted to do and the things we wanted to do
and if we wanted to get some money some way. We had another
dealer at NIU that was dealing and we felt that we could make
more money if we got him out the way. They would do something
to me and then we would take over his spot.
Mr. Hastert. Derrick, you were recruiting people to sell
drugs.
Mr. Smith. Right.
Mr. Hastert. It wasn't necessarily really gang-related.
Mr. Smith. Basically up there it was just, you know, sell
drugs for me and make some money, you know, because I wanted
them to stay in school because if they stayed in school, then
I'd have a spot at each one of the dorms where I had somebody
dealing drugs for me.
Mr. Hastert. So, it was your network or chain.
Mr. Smith. Right.
Mr. Hastert. Let me you ask you the same question. Do you
agree with Jerome that you can make a lot of money doing this?
Mr. Smith. Yes, you can but, you know----
Mr. Hastert. What's the down side of that?
Mr. Smith. The down side is death, imprisonment, you know,
and that's what you try to tell the young people when I'm
dealing with them. You know, I said how many drug dealers did
you know that were living large when they were young that are
drawing pensions now? You know, most of them you find, you can
go to the cemetery and find or either you go to prison and find
them. And I said that's a short route because a lot of them
think, you know, we need money right now. My mom needs money. I
have to take care of her. And the thing I try to express to
them is what if something happened to you? You know, what if
your life is taken? Then who's going to take care of your mom?
You know, you just started thinking about the overall long
picture which would be education and try to do something
economically, and I think the society as a whole right now with
the economic system, you know, situation like it is now and
like the downsizing. You see your parents come home and they're
laid off and you see people with college degrees and they can't
find a job and so you're looking at them and saying, well, they
took the educational route, you know, and now I'm looking at
the drug dealer and he's got four new cars and a pocket full of
money, you know. It's either/or. Which way should I go? You
know, so it's pretty easy to decide, you know, to take the
wrong route.
So, you know, our big thing is just try to give them a
balance. You know, you try to show them like I tell them like
myself. I said I'm an individual that went to NIU, sold drugs,
drove Corvettes around NIU, drove Mercedes around NIU. Got
hooked on heroin, flunked out of Northern twice and now I've
got a 3.7 grade point average and working on a doctor's degree.
I said so, you know, you can make it. It's all the mind set
that you have, you know, and it's another way around it. I'm 47
years old now and the guys that I grew up with, you know,
they're not around.
Mr. Hastert. They're gone.
Mr. Smith. They're gone.
Mr. Hastert. Tell us a little about how you approach these
people and what you're doing now.
Mr. Smith. Basically what we're doing now, as a matter of
fact, this summer we wrote a proposal to the mayor and we got a
day camp for economically disadvantaged children and we have a
basketball program which we call the Basketball Academy where
we have rap sessions and we teach them basketball skills and
the day camp is from 9 to 2 and the basketball is from 5 to 10
and from 5 to 7 we have the 5th through 8th graders and from
7:30 to 9:30 we have the high schoolers and, you know, sports
is usually a calling card so once you get them in and then you
try to develop a relationship because a lot of them that might
be involved with gangs, they try to test you. You know, they
ask you different questions to see, you know, because they know
where I come from and what I've done, so they want to see if
it's true so if I can answer all the questions legitimately and
they feel like, you know, hey, he was involved, then we develop
a relationship because I have young guys telling on other guys
on the team. You know, Mr. Smith, he's involved with drugs now.
You need to talk to him. You know, they tell me about other
guys that are involved in gangs and we just have a relationship
where when I see a person or hear something, I call that
individual in and from the stance of the community, the young
guys come in and talk to me and normally they probably wouldn't
talk to most people but they feel I understand them and I sit
down and I try to tell them, you know, all of them you can't
save. I think that was the hardest thing for me to realize. You
can't save everybody. Everybody is not going to listen. But at
least you have a chance to talk to them. You give them the
opportunity to make their own choice. You know, this way they
see what's good. Fifty percent, they see the bad 50 percent.
But when you're saying like when I grew up in the projects in
Chicago, 75 percent was the bad which we called the good, drug
use, selling drugs, and 25 percent was going to school, getting
your books and getting an education. So normally, you know,
everybody in the situation I was in, once you hit 13, you went
to a gang. That was almost automatic. So with the 75 percent,
you tend to go toward the 75 percent with a 50/50 outlook on
each side, you know, this is your choice. You know, this is a
decision you make and you know what's at the end of that
tunnel. You know it's either and jail or you could be a
positive asset in the community.
Mr. Hastert. Mr. Skogmo, you're in treatment, right?
Mr. Skogmo. Right.
Mr. Hastert. Tell me very briefly, about your program and
do you get kids or is it mostly kids or is it adults?
Mr. Skogmo. Both. About 50 percent each, adolescents and
adults.
Mr. Hastert. They're referred to you by the courts or they
come voluntarily?
Mr. Skogmo. Not too often voluntarily. Occasionally
families will call or physicians, but mostly schools and the
court system.
Mr. Hastert. Run us through. Say a kid is 16 years old and
he's referred to you. What happens?
Mr. Skogmo. Well, certainly it depends on the nature of the
offsense. If it's a drug offense at school, we would provide an
assessment just to determine the severity of the drug problem
and we would try to get them into a treatment program if
treatment is warranted or we have an early intervention
program.
Mr. Hastert. What's the difference?
Mr. Skogmo. Early intervention is usually for people who
are experimenting with drugs.
Mr. Hastert. What is the prevention or intervention?
Mr. Skogmo. Depending on the type of drug use. It's a form
of treatment, but it's very early stage.
Mr. Hastert. Is it counseling?
Mr. Skogmo. Primarily, education as opposed to treatment,
which is much more involved. One of my concerns is that early
intervention programs are pretty much unfunded. There's
prevention programs and there's treatment programs, but for
kids who are experimenting and getting in trouble, you almost
have to wait until they have a severe problem before you see
them in treatment. The State, in this case, is really not
funding. There are some local funds available, but as far as
State funding, it's nonexistent.
Mr. Hastert. Once a kid is in a treatment program, what's
your recidivism rate?
Mr. Skogmo. Again, depending on the nature and the severity
of the problem, but it's as low as 8 percent and as high as 60
percent.
Mr. Hastert. What are the circumstances that come into
play?
Mr. Skogmo. Certainly, family involvement is a clear
determinant of lower rate of recidivism. School involvement,
support system and a network of support system. One of the
things that we would like to try to do, since most of the
referrals that we get are not self-referrals, we would like to
have a little leverage, whether it's a school or whether it's
the court system, to try to get the parents involved as much as
possible. We have a contract, for instance, for adult offenders
who are suspected of having drug abuse problems. We don't have
such a program for youth offenders and I think one of the
things that we would like to see for both early intervention
and treatment would be a program that would mandate if we had
recommended or if any service provider recommended family
involvement in education, intervention and treatment of the
child.
Mr. Hastert. What kind of programs do you think are most
effective? We just passed a piece of legislation out of
Congress, Anti-Drug Coalition, and what it does is say the
community base organizations, faith base, fraternity base
organizations that are grassroots community prevention
programs, probably--making an assumption, true in some cases,
not true in others--are very effective because every community
knows and they pull those community resources together to get
Federal funding, although, not a lot. Well, if they get to
throw Federal dollars to everything. But those people who are
working in their own communities and trying to better that need
some help and we're trying to do that. Do you see a lot of
those programs? Are they, in your opinion, successful or are
the professional programs better or what?
Mr. Skogmo. I think, like most things, a combination of
professional and activity-oriented. I think it's been talked
about quite a bit today about activities and sports and keeping
kids busy. I think it's, you know, certainly an essential part
of when you're dealing with drug abuse with kids. But certainly
the more formal treatment programs and prevention and education
programs and getting the family involved as much as possible,
whether it's a single parent family or a nuclear family. I
think family involvement professionally is very important.
Mr. Hastert. Mr. Lunsmann, you're in an anti-gang. That's
what your profession is right now. It was very enlightening. I
think these gentlemen talked about what the recruiting is and
what the appeal is. It's an appeal that not a lot of kids,
especially who maybe don't have support that they should have,
it's pretty attractive to do that.
If we could do three or four things, what are the three or
four most important things that the Federal Government or State
government or local government can do to help this problem?
Mr. Lunsmann. No. 1, financing is always the root of every
problem we have when we're trying to help children. We have a
small program locally here called the Bridges Program to help
kids get out of gangs or try to help them find the right way on
their own with their parents. Running that program successfully
is always having money to do it.
Other than that, federally, I think your biggest thing that
you can do is maybe try to help stiffen up these drug laws.
When we have somebody getting arrested numerous times, make the
Federal laws a little harsher. You've done it with organized
crime members and I see the gang bangers as organized crime
dealing drugs. I don't know if all the Rico statutes affect
drug dealing, but that works pretty good with dealing with the
mafia. Information like that would help, but giving the
assistance we need and getting input from the people on the
street that do it instead of just the people that administrate
the money. Have some kind of system that gets the input of the
people that deal with the drug abusers and the gang bangers
hand to hand. Somehow, getting a system to get that information
to you. That would help the most.
I've been in the middle and I've been on the bottom and
each time we get from the top, the information as far as grants
go. Recently, I know one instance where the McHenry County
Sheriff's Office within the last year made an arrest and they
were going to cut funding for the prosecutor because it wasn't
a task force situation. They were still arresting a big drug
dealer and prosecuting a big drug dealer, but they were told by
the people giving the grant to the county to prosecute them
that because they weren't part of the multi-jurisdictional task
force, they couldn't use that prosecutor who was a top notch
drug prosecutor to prosecute this man. That kind of stuff would
help us on the street a lot out here.
Mr. Hastert. What we really need to do, one of the panels
we had this morning which was more a law enforcement panel at
that point, but they basically said they had to share resources
and spend some time working together instead of at odds with
each other. Would you agree with that?
Mr. Lunsmann. A hundred percent.
Mr. Hastert. Mr. Chavez, anything you want to add?
Mr. Chavez. Yes. Well, it's definitely parents'
involvement. It's crucial to have some type of educational
programs for parents at the early intervention, even
prevention, area. It's crucial to get the parents involved in
their children's activities. We need more adult supervision and
something that I would like to add is about the clothing,
talking about gangs. We know for a fact there's a lot of new
fashions like the baggy pants and there are a lot of kids who
are not involved in gangs that like to wear those and sometimes
people misunderstand that idea. If a kid is wearing the cool
baggy pants and Nike shoes on the street, a lot of people think
that they're all gang members and it's not true. We have to
really know exactly what the kid is wearing every day, and the
colors and the kind of Black Hawk shirts and all those to
distinguish from different gangs. If you see a kid with baggy
pants and just a white t-shirt, that doesn't mean that it's a
gang and again, people have that misunderstanding.
Definitely, I believe strongly in prevention. I know the
after school programs work but again, if we don't have the
parents getting involved in the kids' activities, again we're
just working 30 percent of what we should be doing. And I can
talk to kids about dangers of drugs and alcohol and as soon as
they walk in at home, the father is totally wasted, drunk, you
know. What good am I doing? So I would definitely ask for even
some mandatory programs for parents whose kids are problems,
getting involved in problems. I will definitely encourage to
have some mandatory educational, prevention, education programs
for parents to work with other organizations and churches and
everything and provided in, again, English and probably Spanish
as well because culturally speaking there's big differences
like when we have programs for African Americans and so on and
so forth. Definitely, it will be the biggest thing. My goal is
to get parents involved in my kids' activities.
Mr. Hastert. Pam, you are a parent. You've been through the
wars probably and most heart crushing experiences on this. A
little bit you have to reflect, I guess, in your involvement as
a parent. When you first got involved, you didn't think there
was a problem. What would your counseling or recommendations
be, first of all, to people who want to get parents involved
and second, to parents?
Ms. Maakestad. I really don't have a real answer for you
other than when I was going through the treatment with my
daughter, the treatment at Rosecrantz up in Rockford was
completely different from the treatment--I didn't learn a thing
when I went to the Rosecrantz treatment. When I went to Laconda
Interventions Contact and DuPage Interventions Contact. I think
you have to be careful who you're dealing with as far as where
you're going to get your information from because things that I
was told in Rockford about drugs and alcohol--didn't have the
gang influence at the time--but drugs and alcohol, a lot of the
information that I got was wrong and it wasn't--those types of
things weren't happening. You know, it wasn't--she wasn't in
the normal group of things.
Mr. Hastert. How would you get parents--what would be your
recommendation? How do you get parents' attention to get them
involved with their kids? You've been through it.
Ms. Maakestad. A lot of times through the schools. The
schools would send home papers asking the parents to be part of
the programs.
Mr. Hastert. Does it work?
Ms. Maakestad. It did with me. I don't know how well it
worked. I know with the soccer programs and softball and Little
League and that type of thing we had a success rate with the
parents. But, at that time they weren't doing the drug and
alcohol programs and such as they do now.
Mr. Hastert. Don.
Mr. Manzullo. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We're talking about
after the fact here. My question is why does or how or what
makes a kid want to get involved in using drugs and then go
into gangs? Just step back once. Les, you work with hundreds of
kids and we have lunch there a couple of months ago. You shared
with me some of the stories. The reason I ask that is that my
kids are 9, 11 and 13 and I spend a lot of time with them, as
much time as I can, and it's quite a bit considering my
schedule. But I'm very much concerned on what there would be in
the mind of a child that would make that child want to get
involved in drugs and many times gangs.
Mr. Lunsmann. I feel that the answer to that question, if I
knew an exact answer, I would be on the circuit across the
United States. It's hard to determine why each kid does what
they do, but a majority of the time it has to do with peer
pressure or who the kids are associating with and their freedom
and time and space. People try to tend to blame it on bad
parenting and dysfunctional families. I've had contact with
kids from the best families that spend time daily with their
children and the kids still get messed up with drugs.
Mr. Manzullo. If I could interrupt a second, this is what
Jerome brought out, that often times people think the term
dysfunctional families means a one parent household, and he was
very careful to point out that the number of parents in a
household has nothing to do with whether or not that family is
dysfunctional.
Mr. Lunsmann. Very correct.
Mr. Manzullo. Well, what is it? Are parents spending too
much time watching television or aren't they talking to their
kids any more? What's going on in the American family today?
Mr. Lunsmann. My personal opinion is we give our kids more
freedom than we had. I have no reason or know no reason why we
do that. We don't make our kids accountable any more. A lot of
us, when we were young, our parents knew where we were at. They
trusted us but they made us accountable for our actions. It's
not happening any more. We've brought children to the door step
of parents in handcuffs before and they say, well, he was over
at so and so's house. It doesn't happen that way. They go out
and do their thing. They lie to their parents. They're doing
drugs at school. They're stealing from their parents to buy the
drugs. They're stealing cars, taking them to Chicago to trade
them for drugs. It's a totally different animal. There's no
answer to that question.
There are a lot of kids that are on drugs and in gangs
because they come from a one parent family and the mother is
working two jobs but there's as many kids that belong to two
parent families that have siblings that turn out to be honor
students that don't ever do drugs and they up doing drugs,
dealing drugs, and end up in jail. It just has to do with their
way of life and, once they start that way of life, it might
happen because they get kicked off of the Little League team
when they're young.
Mr. Manzullo. Something simple.
Mr. Lunsmann. Right. But what you have to do is figure out
a way to deal with it at the time and have an answer for them.
Give them ramifications. If Rosecrantz doesn't work and the kid
gets in trouble again, make sure they know they're going to get
in trouble.
One thing I want to cover that nobody asked a question on
here was recidivism--you know what I'm talking about?
Mr. Manzullo. Repeat rate.
Mr. Lunsmann. Yes. It's a lot. It's a lot more than 8
percent and it's closer to 60 or 70 percent, whatever he said.
The number of kids that we arrested in the 8\1/2\ years that I
was on the Narcotics Task Force had to be 50 percent that had
been in rehab at one time or the other, had been in a drug
treatment program court ordered, and they end up back in there
instead of going to jail. The reason that is, the judge tells
them, next time we catch you, you're going to go to jail.
There's no place to put juveniles. The juveniles ended up back
on the street or in programs. If they went to jail once for a
week, I think it would keep them from going back to treatment
for 45 days for $4,000 a week or whatever it costs. That's my
personal opinion.
Mr. Hastert. Well, let me ask you gentlemen. Is the threat
of going to jail, is that a deterrent?
Mr. Cole. At the time, for me, it wasn't. All my friends
was in jail and it didn't even matter to me. When I stopped
playing football, when I was injured and I couldn't play any
more, all my buddies that I grew up with was either dead or in
jail so I would have got more educated. That's another thing.
It's funny because a lot of the young kids want to go to jail.
They want to go to jail because they go to jail at a young age,
15 or 16, you put them in a penitentiary with guys 30, 35, 36,
they come out on the street more wise. It's just like going
from high school to college. They come out of the penal system
wiser than they was when they went on the street, street
smarter than they was before they went in. So there's got to be
another way around this because I'm telling you. At the time,
jail didn't scare me at all. At all. The only thing that would
frighten me, I didn't want my mother to know I was selling
drugs. I was more scared of her than I was any law enforcement
agent. I mean seriously. I was more afraid of my mother than
anything.
Mr. Hastert. Derrick, you related another episode or
another time that your mother was really what got you out of
drugs. Can you kind of tell us how that happened.
Mr. Smith. Basically, I came from a family where every
Sunday you go to church. My mom and dad, they neither one
smoked nor drank nor used profanity. I think I was the first
one in the household to curse, the first one to drink, the
first one to smoke, the first one to use drugs. So I don't know
if it was rebellion or what but I just wanted to hang out with
fellas. While I was growing up, I had this thing where they
always called me Church Boy, so I guess it was rebellion that I
was doing against them but when I got into drugs, I ended up
doing heroin and what got me off, I was at a drug house.
They're called shooting galleries and when you're in a shooting
gallery you have like one outfit they call--and now they have
AIDS and hepatitis and everything like that. Back then it
didn't really matter. Nobody was really catching anything. Just
getting high.
So we were in this drug house and I got high and I had a
vision and in this vision I saw this lady looked like she was
kneeling by a bed and it was like it was cloudy and it was
foggy and this was all while I was totally wasted. It was
probably some of the best drugs I had ever had. And when I got
through these clouds and this fog, I looked down and I went to
touch the lady and she looked up and it was my mom and she was
smiling and through this, it looked like everything just
started being reciprocal. I saw my grandmother and I saw
everybody. Seemed like everybody I loved all of a sudden, the
vision of them popped up in my head.
So I opened up my eyes and when I opened up my eyes, I
wasn't even high any more. And so first thing I did, I told my
guys I had to go and so I ran all the way back home which was
about 15 blocks and for some reason I just told my mother I had
to go back to DeKalb because I had a friend there and I said I
just feel that he could take care of me. So she put me on a
Greyhound bus and I got there and my friend picked me up and at
that time, I would get sick because I was using drugs quite
regularly. So while I was sick, I stayed 3 days and I mean I
was real sick and I kept telling my friend I had to go to
Chicago. There's no way I could take this pain, and he just
kept saying just listen. He was reading the Bible to me. So he
read the Bible for 3 days and 3 days I cussed at him and did
everything else and told him I had to go and he would sit on me
and just keep reading.
So I don't know, I just, it was like I finally got my own
mind back and I told him at that time I said I was going to
make a vow to God that if I could get off drugs now, I'd never
go back. I'd never put another needle in my arm. And that was
in June 1977, and that was the last time that I used drugs. So
when a lot of kids ask me what kind of rehabilitation that you
have, how long you stay in rehab, I can't really answer that
question. I still don't know today. I tell them, you know, it
was the Lord doing it because when I went in that house, that
drug house, I didn't go in that drug house looking for God. I
went to get high and that's what I was at the time. So, you
know, that's why basically right now and since 1977 I've spent
all my energy and all my time trying to tell young people about
the dangers of drugs, the dangers of gangs because it wasn't
until then I got out of the gang.
And a lot of kids ask me, how can you get out of gangs, and
I say one simple method. Next time they have a meeting, you go
to the meeting and you tell them hey, God touched my life. We
all need to go to church Sunday morning and we need to be
saved, I said, and they will get away from you because they
will think you're crazy, and that's how I got out. Basically
they were calling me Jesus Christ and stuff like that but
nobody never bothered me again about coming to meetings and,
you know, things I had to do in order to stay in the gang. So I
told them that's my foolproof method, you know. Tell them let's
go to church Sunday.
Mr. Manzullo. I have a repeat question. Mr. Skogmo, you
said there were three levels of treatment and one level that
there was a hole in it that you couldn't get started because of
lack of funding.
Mr. Skogmo. Yes. Primarily early intervention.
Mr. Manzullo. Explain that again because that's a need
that's not being filled. Is that correct?
Mr. Skogmo. Yes.
Mr. Manzullo. Explain that again. What is that aimed at?
What's the focus?
Mr. Skogmo. The focus is on we get a number of referrals
from the court system or from the school system. A kid will
come in and he's high. Maybe the first time he's ever done
drugs. We will get a referral to provide some services. He
may--and probably isn't hard core at all but he's beginning to
experiment. Early intervention is designed to intervene at that
point to get the child hooked up with other, more healthy
choices, to get the family involved and to allow, in our case,
our agency to work with the school system. So it's at that
point. It's different from prevention. Prevention is just like
it says. It's to prevent drug abuse, and that's a great program
and it provides all kinds of information to kids and families
and so on.
Treatment. Certainly treatment, I don't think anybody would
argue that treatment is not needed but the early intervention
program is something that kind of falls in the middle and a lot
of times it is ignored.
Mr. Manzullo. Denny and I have asked the same question with
regard to getting parents involved. Years ago, if you had an
assembly asking parents to come for a meeting on drug abuse,
the gymnasium would be full. Today, you'll get the organizers
to show up and perhaps one or two more parents that will come.
What I have noticed in talking to parents and talking to kids
and based upon my personal experience of being involved in the
juvenile justice system for 22 years, before I was elected to
Congress, is that parents of teens today have lived through
drugs in school and they have the attitude that well, I lived
through it and came out OK and my kids can do the same thing,
not realizing, as we said earlier, that the potency of drugs--
Denny, what is it? Heroin is 90 percent pure and it used to be
4 to 6 percent pure?
Mr. Hastert. Yes.
Mr. Manzullo. Ten years ago. Is that parents can become
complacent thinking that this is just a phase through which
their children will pass on the road to becoming a successful
citizen knowing full well that the ultimate price could be your
child being gunned down on the courthouse steps of a small town
like Sycamore, leading to that horrible end. So, I don't know
if any of you has any views on how to reach into the community?
How do you impress upon parents the absolute necessity that
this is a life and death struggle and that the kids that don't
die from getting addicted to drugs many times will have their
lives messed up until they die at a normal age. What do you do?
What's the answer?
Mr. Chavez. I would like to say that unfortunately a lot of
people live in denial saying oh, it will never happen to my
kid. No, my kid is all right. He's going to school. He's
attending this, this and that. He plays the flute, whatever. It
will never happen to him. When it happens, it's like the
biggest eye opener and unfortunately it's way too late. That's
based on my experience and what I have seen.
Another thing that I have seen and when he was talking
about to be afraid of the mother. The parents are not allowed
to discipline their kids any more and a lot of concerned
parents are telling me, I cannot tell anything to my son
because he's telling me I'll call the police and you'll be
arrested. So they don't know how to discipline, I'm not talking
about violent ways to discipline a kid but now the kids are
using that as a weapon that you do something to me or you're
planning to, I'll call the police and you're going to get
arrested. And again, I'm speaking of my experience with Latinos
and immigrants. There's a big fear. It's like what am I going
to do? I have another two kids. If I go to jail, I have to pay
a bond. In the mean time, there's 2 or 3 days, at least 1, that
I'm going to miss at work. That's money.
So they're kind of--there is a lot of frustration that I
can see in the parents that they do really want to discipline
their kids but there's a fear because of that reason and again,
I've seen it over and over and over and over again and a lot of
parents call me and tell me, What do I do? How far as a parent
I can go to discipline my kid in order not to be involved in a
criminal activity, you know, spanking or domestic violence or
so on and so forth. And they really don't know where the line
of how far you can go in a discipline action to your kid. And
the kids are very brave, you know. Go ahead. Go ahead. You
know, I'll call the police. It's as simple as that. So then the
parents go like, OK, OK, just don't do it again and that's it.
That's not a way to collaborate.
And another thing that has been happening is as long as
nothing happens in my house, I don't care what happens to the
neighbors.
Mr. Manzullo. The time for parents to get involved is
before there is a problem.
Mr. Chavez. Right.
Mr. Hastert. It doesn't happen.
Mr. Manzullo. Doesn't happen.
Mr. Hastert. Jerome, I'll give you the last shot here.
Derrick talked just a little bit about how he'd go about
telling kids not to get involved in this. You said you were
afraid of your mother. I guess maybe we're all like that at one
time or another. But what would your advice be to a kid who's
thinking about being a gang banger or trying to get involved in
drugs? What would your advice be to him? First off, if he's in
a gang, how to get out and how not to get in in the first
place.
Mr. Cole. Well, it's pretty hard to get out of a gang once
you're in. You can't get out. A lot of times the gang members
will respect you if they see that you really truly are trying
to change your life. I've seen that a lot. It happened with me.
To prevent the kids from getting in gangs, I just hope--I
just think that it's the programs outside of school that helps
the most. I mean sometime you can't get--some kids can't get
close to their parents and they need--they talk to their peers.
They talk to their peers and they talk to counselors more so
than they do their parents. I know it's a lot of things that I
got friends and counselors know about me that, like I said, I
wouldn't even tell my mother. So you do need intervention from
church programs and school programs and YMCAs and different
things like that. Those are the things that will help the kid,
you know, get away from drugs and gangs. It's not impossible.
It's possible to do but if things keep going the way they are
now, it will be no county in America safe from gangs and drugs.
It's almost like that now.
Mr. Hastert. Thank you.
I guess in closing, I'll recall a conversation I had with a
group of kids out in Dixon, IL. They were 250 eighth graders,
pretty vulnerable age, and they were all in this middle school
and it was a couple of months ago right before they were ready
to graduate and go into high school. We were talking about it
and they asked questions about being a Member of Congress and I
asked them a couple of questions. We were talking about drugs
and I asked them, how many of them--there were 250 of them. How
many of them have had their parents talk to them about drugs?
About 40 of them raised their hand out of 250. That's less than
20 percent. I think that's probably one of our problems today.
Of course, you can't point your fingers at all parents and some
are more perceptive than others, but what we need, if anything,
is to keep this communication up and have parents get involved.
I guess you do that through community organizations and
community information and stuff so that they do have an
interest in their kids and talk about it.
One of the things that Don and I talked about earlier today
that a lot of these parents, the parents now had gone through
the 1970's and been through the drug cultures. They say well, I
lived through it, so I guess my kid can live through it today.
But it's different. Drugs are tougher and there's more stuff
around than there was in the 1970's.
First of all, we just want to say thanks to you folks for
what you do day in and day out and for being here today and
spending some time with us. What we hope to do with this
information, we're not going to take a magic wand and make laws
out of everything, but to give us a better guidance on where to
go. My committee has the job of re-authorization of the ONDCP
which is the drug czar's office this year and try to develop
those programs. We also try to coordinate the $15 billion that
we put into drug programs every year. Some of it's effective
and some of it isn't. We'd like to get a better bang for our
buck and make sure we find out what works and what doesn't
work.
I have taken this on as a personal challenge for myself and
other Members of Congress have, as well, to try in 4 years to
use our efforts so that we can drastically reduce drug use in
this country. I think that there are six areas that we have to
look at.
First of all is prevention. That's home base. We've got to
keep kids from getting involved in drugs and people from
getting involved in drugs in the first place.
Second is treatment. It's there and it's a problem we've
got to face. There are those who have been involved and we've
got to find the best way to deal with those folks and to get
them out again. The best programs are where we don't have the
recidivism, if that's possible.
Third thing we have to do is what we do in our back yard:
Law enforcement. We'll have another panel in here and they will
talk about that today. Those people who try to keep drugs off
the street, to apprehend those people who are the bad guys, the
dark side. The consequences you talk about, what you've been
involved with for a number of years. How do we do a better job
in law enforcement? We have local police. We have county
police. We have State police. We have the Federal police. How
can we better coordinate the courts and the prosecutors and
judges and how do we do a better job to work together to stop?
The other is just the interdiction area. Drugs coming
across our border. We sit in this country with almost 2,000
miles of border from Texas to Baja, CA and it's a pretty open
sieve and a lot of stuff comes across those borders and we have
four or five agencies down there, Customs, INS, DEA and Border
Patrol. The problem is we have people in Customs, for instance,
that can bid for those jobs and sit on that border for 20 years
with their brother-in-law living across the border. It's just
ripe for corruption and we don't do a very good job at our
bureaucracy to correct the problem.
On the other hand, the Coast Guard and others, we have
10,000 boats as we speak moving through the Caribbean and the
eastern Pacific, some of them loaded down with cocaine and
heroin and marijuana and they can't stop every boat and you
can't stop every truck. Intelligence has to be there and we
have to be able to stop that stuff coming in.
I've been in Peru and I've been in Bolivia and I've been in
Colombia. I've been in Burma where the stuff comes from, and
I'll tell you, in the upper Gwaga Valley of Peru you can buy a
kilo of cocoa paste. It's not refined yet. If you ever saw how
they make cocoa paste, it would turn your stomach. They strip
these leaves and put it in a plastic pit and put fuel oil and
gasoline on it. Then, they put the bicarbonate of soda which
starts the chemical reaction and they strain all that stuff out
and you never want to put it in your body, but that's what we
use. But, you can buy that cocoa paste for probably about--
well, the market price was $400 per kilo. Today, because of
Fujimore and the shootdown policy in Peru, it's down to about
$100 a kilo and farmers are walking away from their fields and
not growing it because they can't make a living off of it.
That's reduced cocoa growth in Peru 19 percent last year, they
think another 25 percent. So, there's all kinds of economic
strategies out there to stem the flow of the stuff into the
country.
Finally, money laundering. Guys who grow cocaine, the FDLN
which is the gorilla movement in Colombia that used to be
supported by the communists in Russia and Cuba now support
themselves by growing and distributing coke and moving it up
through the system. The cartels, drug gangs in Mexico. None of
them would be able to afford to grow it, manufacture it,
smuggle it, get it across the border, distribute it if they
couldn't get the money back in their pockets. And so the whole
money laundering piece is a big part of this, as well.
All of those. I can't say that maybe one is any more
important than the other. They're all balanced. We have to look
at all of them, but especially the issue of how you stop people
from using it, prevention is so important, and you're right on
the front line of that. We appreciate your work. We'll try to
take your ideas and work on them ourselves. Thank you for being
with us and we'll dismiss you at this time. Thank you.
At this time, I'd like to introduce our second panel. First
of all, Bill LeFew is a former mayor and current member of the
Communities Against Drugs. We have a DEA Agent, Mr. Michael
Zawadzki from Chicago. We're also fortunate to have Sheriff
Nygren before us. He's the sheriff from McHenry County. Gary
Pack is the State's attorney for McHenry County. William Morley
is the Assistant Special Agent in Charge of the Chicago Field
Office of the Drug Enforcement Administration, DEA. We welcome
him.
In accordance with the House rules, we swear in everybody
and I'm going to ask you to please stand and raise your right
hands.
[Witnesses sworn.]
Mr. Hastert. Let the record show that the witnesses
answered in the affirmative. Mr. LeFew, if you'd like to start
off.
STATEMENTS OF BILL LEFEW, COMMUNITIES AGAINST DRUGS; MICHAEL
ZAWADZKI, DEA AGENT FROM CHICAGO; SHERIFF NYGREN, MCHENRY
COUNTY; GARY PACK, STATE'S ATTORNEY MCHENRY COUNTY; WILLIAM
MORLEY, ASSISTANT SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE OF THE CHICAGO FIELD
OFFICE, DRUG ENFORCEMENT ADMINISTRATION
Mr. LeFew. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My present title is
McHenry County treasurer but prior to that, I was mayor of
Harvard and prior to that, I spent about 10 years in law
enforcement. During my term as mayor of Harvard, the New York
Times quoted us as passing the toughest anti-gang legislation
in the Nation as far as a city. The problem is it was only
city-wide. Presently in the State of Illinois, a person driving
a car without auto insurance will suffer a greater fine
monetarily than a person involved in a gang fight in our
county. There is an inequity there.
Not only do we need tough anti-gang laws but, in my
opinion, we also need education, and that's what we did during
my term as mayor. Prior to enforcing any of our anti-gang laws,
we required all of our gang officers to go to our local schools
and met with every single classroom from kindergarten to
seniors in high school to explain what gangs are, why you don't
want to be in them, and how to get out of them.
County-wide we were involved in the northern Illinois Gang
Task Force, but that required us--our community--to donate an
officer at a cost of approximately $40,000 out of our budget to
that task force because it was not funded, and we gladly did
that.
It appears to me, Mr. Chairman, that we have become a
reactive society. Instead of trying to prevent problems such as
drug abuse and gang tactics, we react to them after they become
so severe that we can no longer tolerate them. One of the main
solutions that we did at Harvard and I think would be advisable
elsewhere is we sat down with law enforcement officials and
point blank asked them what they needed to get the job done.
They told us they needed higher fines and they needed stiffer
laws and they needed them to read in a certain way, and we gave
it to them. Then, as elected officials, we got out of the way
because we in McHenry County, as we did in Harvard, have
professional law enforcement people, as we do in Sheriff Nygren
and we need to make sure that they have a clean slate to deal
with the gangs and the drugs that are in our community.
The biggest problem facing elected officials, as of
ourselves, is, first of all, standing up and admitting we have
a gang problem and a drug problem. I think it's great that
you're having these hearings. Most elected officials in McHenry
County are very hesitant to say that. The one thing that I need
to say loudly and clearly in McHenry County, gangs are here.
They're not looking at McHenry. They're not thinking about
coming to McHenry County. They're not maybe planning to get
here. Gangs are here. They are alive in every single community
and we need to federally take action to make sure that they
don't cross borders and continue what they've done in our
community.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Hastert. Thank you.
Sheriff.
Mr. Nygren. Thank you. Anybody who thinks that gangs and
drugs aren't a problem in McHenry County is simply kidding
themselves. The county is seeing phenomenal growth. I've been
involved in law enforcement here for about 26 years and I've
seen all of our communities, whether it's unincorporated
McHenry County or Algonquin or Lake in the Hills or Crystal
Lake or Morengo. It's doesn't matter. I've seen a change. There
was a time when law enforcement officers knew the children in
the neighborhoods, knew the families, and there was a
relationship which doesn't always exist now. You can go to any
of the malls and you won't know seven-eighths of the people
that are there, so that closeness that existed with fewer
people is evaporating on a daily basis.
We have taken a very proactive approach to drug enforcement
in this county, both on a regional level through the North
Central Narcotics Task Force on the local level, and I believe
that if there's an area that we can succeed in, it's in local
cooperation. The sheriff's department, all the police
departments in McHenry County have a very close working
relationship when it comes to gang enforcement and when it
comes to drug enforcement.
We recently cooperatively, through the Chiefs of Police
Association, formed a McHenry County Gang Task Force and the
purpose of that task force is to pair up deputies from the
sheriff's department along with men and women, sworn officers
from other departments, to go into specific communities where
the problems are and work together, and we're seeing some
positive effects from that kind of approach.
In law enforcement, we've seen a need and we're involved in
educational programs. Education over the long term may be the
ultimate answer. I don't know. Changing people's attitudes so
that they do the right thing because they want to do the right
thing seems to be more effective than you and I standing over
their shoulder and telling them what to do. I think education
is one of the areas that we need to do more in.
We have an intelligence gathering process where we gather
information, and information is power. The sharing of
information amongst law enforcement empowers us. It gives us an
ability to know what's going on. These people are mobile. They
constantly move from area to area.
Third, is just plain law enforcement. Good law enforcement,
whether it be drugs or gangs. Getting out there, making the
arrest. The media helps us by publicizing those kinds of
campaigns so that there is a price to pay and people who play
that game know that there is, in fact, a price to pay.
But there may be a fourth prong that we're missing and
that's the treatment area, and the treatment area involving law
enforcement. We began a pilot program in Crystal Lake, and what
we decided to do was educate, gather information and enforce,
but we also wanted to get involved at the law enforcement level
with treatment and that was a program to bring the parents of
youngsters who are involved in gang activity representing
whether they've been arrested or not, somehow where we could
articulate they were involved in gangs, together once a month
with other parents who are having the same problem. Now,
there's strength in numbers and when people see that they have
the same problem that you do, they're more open than when it's
just one on one, a police officer and a family. We're taking a
look at that program in Crystal Lake to see how that works out.
If we can bring the treatment people in at that level where
parents are saying, I have a friend who has the same problem.
They're receptive to counseling, they're receptive to
intervention. We may have a new twist to the law enforcement
approach which involves also the treatment aspect. We've kind
of left that to the professionals in the past, and I think we
need to start doing that at our law enforcement level.
The problem isn't going to go away any time soon. I think
what we need to do to begin to work on some of this, we have
regional programs, we have Federal programs and we'd be in
trouble without them, but we have to learn something from the
gangs. We can take a pearl of wisdom from what they do. They
create a situation where they have a turf. It's their area.
They protect it. They fight for it. We have to create that same
kind of territorial imperative for law enforcement. We have to
have programs that trickle down on the local level where people
say, OK, now you're threatening Crystal Lake, McHenry County,
Lake in the Hills, Ogonquin, and we're going to fight back.
When you have people fighting for their own neighborhoods, when
you have people who can impact that kind of a battle, you're
going to see more successes than when they get diluted out in
the outer reaches in the Federal programs.
So from a law enforcement standpoint, I'd like to see more
of those billions of dollars filter down to local programs and
filter down to local programs with cooperative efforts between
jurisdictions. You have to work together. You have to find
community solutions to your problems, use community resources,
and those are the programs that I think that need to be funded
more than they are.
Thank you.
Mr. Hastert. Thank you, Sheriff.
Mr. Pack.
Mr. Pack. Thank you. I've been prosecutor in McHenry County
for about 17 years, so I've seen the crime in McHenry County,
the whole county, about 17 years. About 7 years ago we could
say there wasn't even crack in the county. We had our first
case of crack about 7 years ago. Now it's 10 to 15 cases. So if
you look at it statistically, I guess it's 1,000 percent
increase. But as far as the population of McHenry County goes,
we have increased so much and I think that the law enforcement
has done a good job in containing a lot of this but there's
still a major problem. We didn't have any gangs either 7 years
ago. You can look around the surrounding counties, what they
were like about 10 years ago. Many of them didn't take the gang
problem seriously.
McHenry County saw the problem coming. About 5 years ago we
started many programs, task force to investigate the
possibility of gangs coming and what we could do about it. We
hired--even the State's attorney's office got involved in the
law enforcement part of it by hiring Les Lunsmann as an
investigator, as a link to the task force. He was a link
between the State's attorney's office and the task force. He's
done a wonderful job of containing gang activity. But the
problem is there. There's still denial in McHenry County also
of gang activity. The problem is there. Is it a major problem?
I think it's all relative. It's a major problem to the extent
that it is a very serious potential problem.
The problems that we have are mostly turf fights. The gangs
come up here. They're wannabes. They are transplants from other
areas. They come up here and they have a turf fight. We had a
few drive by shootings. We never had drive by shootings until
last year or so. We've had two of them so far. Is that serious?
Maybe to Kane County, maybe to Page County, to Cook County it's
not that serious. To us, anything is serious involving gang
activity.
We also need the support of the parents. We have a lot of
parents in some of these schools that come up and say, well,
they don't want to adhere to this dress code. Well, it's a
dress code that gets a lot of these kids in trouble. If the kid
is wearing the wrong colors, wearing the wrong symbols, that
kid could be in danger. Most of the gangs here are fights.
They're gang fights. They're turf fights over symbols, over
colors.
We do not have a place for juvenile delinquents to go. A
lot of these kids are picked up, gang fight or whatever. They
are not detained because there is no juvenile detention center
in McHenry County, one of the biggest counties in the State. We
have no center. If a police officer wants to detain them, if
the courts want to detain them, they have to go down to
Bloomington and that takes almost a day out of an officer's
schedule just to detain juveniles. So most of them don't take
the criminal justice system seriously and we need to take it
more seriously.
Now, as law enforcement, we do treat it very seriously,
gang activities. In fact, we consider it even an aggravating
factor. But we also know that jail sentences are not the total
answer. It may keep them off the streets for a while, but we
need the treatment also. We're very strong proponents of
treatment and intervention also. We need the prevention money.
We need intervention money. You're heard some of these programs
before like the Bridges. These are very necessary programs in
our county. We do react. We have many organizations of people
who do care. What we're lacking is money for those people who
do care to supplement their programs.
Mr. Hastert. Mr. Morley.
Mr. Morley. Yes, sir, Mr. Chairman. I believe I'm the lone
representative here from the Federal Government, and I want to
say that we do care. Gangs have developed in virtually every
major city in the country. Even the smaller towns are no longer
immune to the violence and the drug activity that goes along
with the gang activity. Some of the larger gangs have moved
into the rural areas, as you know, and even the gangs that were
in Chicago, the Gangster Disciples, the Vice Lords, the Latin
Kings, all of them or those three gangs at least have moved out
to McHenry County here and they have tentacles out in the
county and have established a presence out here.
The Federal Government is very aware of this problem and
what they have done is they have established a mobile
enforcement team to combat the gangs and drug violence that
goes along with the gangs. It's called the Mobile Enforcement
Team. There's 20 divisions around the country. All of the
divisions have at least one Mobile Enforcement Team. Chicago
itself has one. We have deployed up until this point in about
four cities so far. We've been very successful, I believe.
The team consists of 10 agents and a group supervisor, and
they will, at the request of a State and/or local prosecutor or
chief of police, depending on if it meets the requirements of
the Mobile Enforcement Team, they will deploy to that city and
stay there for as long as it takes to solve the problem.
Chicago, as I said, has completed four of these deployments now
and we're currently deployed somewhere else and we've got
several other deployments on line but this is something that
the Federal Government is very serious about and we believe
that it has been very successful thus far.
Thank you.
Mr. Hastert. Mr. Zawadzki.
Mr. Zawadzki. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am the Demand
Reduction Coordinator, a Special Agent for the Chicago Field
Division. I'm in attendance. I'm a Member of Congressman
Manzullo's Anti-Drug Coalition out in Rockford. Mr. Morley is a
Supervisory Special Agent of our front office, so he's probably
more equipped to answer any questions. I brought him along.
Mr. Hastert. Why don't you just tell us a little bit what
you're doing in demand reduction.
Mr. Zawadzki. Well, first of all, I handle the five State
region. I have Wisconsin, Minnesota, North Dakota, Indiana and
Illinois. We have four priority programs essentially that come
out of Washington, DC, one of them being working with anti-drug
coalitions, working in an advisory capacity as well as getting
more involved in the coalition, particularly in the community
as far as initiating drug awareness programs in school
districts, as well as with civic organizations.
One of the other priorities that we've been handling
recently is anti-legalization training, training people about
the issues of legalization, more of the con than the pro, and
drugs in the work place also. Obviously, drugs, it's a gang
problem. It's been a problem everywhere and it's also
infiltrated the business groups.
As Demand Reduction Coordinator, I'm tasked with either
implementing the programs myself or assisting and guiding
businesses, civic organizations and coalitions in working with
their own programs within their own community.
Mr. Hastert. What tactics are you using that are effective
on drugs in the work place?
Mr. Zawadzki. In drugs in the work place, it's specifically
geared toward awareness for the supervisors. I guess
historically or at least in the last 10 years since 1988 when
the act came in, many of the problems with drugs in the work
place had to do with the fact that many of the people who were
supervising either 10 or more people, say for instance, are not
in the position to recognize or don't have the training to
recognize when somebody's showing up and working when they're
on drugs--drugs or alcohol abuse but specifically drugs in this
case--to try to train them what exactly to look for when it
comes to that.
Many of the businesses will ask for a little bit of
background information on how they can comply with the Drug
Work Place Act, but 95 percent of the training that I would
give to a business--a small business or a large business, many
of them are small businesses--would be what to look for when
someone is on drugs.
Mr. Hastert. What about the common sense--I use the word
common sense--advice that you give to people that have to deal
with folks who want to legalize drugs? What are you telling
them or what kind of strategies are you using there?
Mr. Zawadzki. Common, you mean just anybody that would ask?
Mr. Hastert. Basically, the people that you deal with, you
have to give information they can use. I call that common
sense.
Mr. Zawadzki. OK. When it comes to telling people about--
many of the questions that come out is that they're hearing a
lot of information recently about the pros to legalization. One
of the arguments is that you can't use law enforcement to
eliminate the drug problem away so why don't we just legalize
it and, you know, it's a simple solution to a complex problem.
One of the responses to that is that we have to look at the
long term ramifications of something like that. For instance,
if we were to legalize marijuana, what are we going to do?
We're going to have even more people walking around stoned than
we already have now?
If there is a common sense approach to it, normally it kind
of goes along those lines that if someone is smoking marijuana
now, they're breaking the law. There are some deterrent effects
to that. Many people are confused about some of the information
they receive about the deterrent effects that actually the
illegality of the use has on a person.
Specifically, when high school seniors, which you're
getting into more of an adulthood group, are polled and they're
asked about not so much their marijuana use but if they are
users and they have curtailed some of their marijuana, is the
fact that it's illegal. A little bit of a deterrent that
they've curtailed and indeed, more than 60 percent respond yes.
A common sense approach to someone who would argue for
legalization more or less using the same example you used
earlier about I lived through it, my kids live through it, you
know, my kids should get through it also would be that can you
imagine what the statistics would read if it was legal?
Mr. Hastert. I mean you hear a lot of folks say, well, you
know, during the depression and right before the depression,
during that period of time prior to that, we outlawed alcohol
and you had more bootleggers and you had lost taxes and you had
legitimate business people that became outlaws and all that
kind of stuff. How do you deal with that? How do you deal with
that kind of information?
Mr. Zawadzki. With the argument prohibition didn't work and
this would be considered the same. While some of the
information that they have about prohibition is, again, it's--
there is truth out there and then there's lies and, in order to
work their way through it, the best way to tell them is that
well, you know, say, for instance, before prohibition was
repealed, 35 percent of a reduction in cirrhosis of the liver,
health consequences. Many of the things that people don't think
about. Much of--many people did not--much of the argument you
get about alcohol use during prohibition was that it never
changed. Well, as a matter of fact, it increased the use of the
drug--well, the use of alcohol in that sense, it increased once
it was legalized. And then that's the same argument that can
apply to marijuana. Specifically, being the next gateway drug.
One of the other common sense approaches to the argument
would be in talking about the gateway system where it starts
with tobacco and it goes from alcohol and then now marijuana.
Essentially, we are dealing with two legal drugs and if we were
to make marijuana legal, now we're essentially dealing with
three legal drugs and then after that, the gateway process, we
can start talking about cocaine. Statistics show that that
would be the next drug. So I guess what we're saying is 30, 40,
50 years from now, maybe then we can just go ahead and legalize
cocaine and then so forth and so on.
Mr. Hastert. The record of places like Switzerland hasn't
been real good, Holland and other places.
Mr. Zawadzki. Much of the training for the educators in the
school districts is what I give for--I bring in a lot of the
experiments that were done overseas. Yes.
Mr. Hastert. Sheriff, you've had a pretty good record. Just
recently also an apprehension of illegal drugs. You talked a
lot about being able to work together and share resources,
something that the district that I represent just south of
here, our circuit has Kane and DeKalb and Kendall County
together. Surprisingly, a couple or 2 or 3 years ago, I got
States attorneys, judges, chiefs of police, sheriffs, together
just to sit down and talk. To my amazement, even though they're
in the same circuit, they never really sat down and shared
information and talked about what they did and how they can
share cases that move around. The thing is if things got tough
in Elgin, those kids ended up selling drugs in Sycamore. If
they got tough in Aurora, they ended up in Plaino and Swago and
other places, and I'm sure it's the same situation here.
How have you gone about to do this? How have you set this
thing up?
Mr. Nygren. Well, yes, you're right. It's amazing when you
form partnerships and what you can accomplish so much more.
It's not hard to set. It's just take a first step and say, you
know, I'm willing to share my information. I'm willing to share
my authority or whatever authority I may think I have with you
and will you do the same with me for the good of the community?
And when you start to do those things, not just in police
circles, but out in the public. The public very much wants to
be our eyes and our ears and our help.
Law enforcement traditionally felt that it was a law
enforcement function. Leave it alone. We'll do it. We have
learned over the years that we can't. Groups like Communities
Against Gangs want to help us. PTAs and PTOs in the schools,
church groups, Neighborhood Watches. Traditional law
enforcement didn't always get the job done. Community policing.
The idea that you partner up with your community and you use
the resources of people who do have a reason to fight the fight
I think are going to be the most successful. And it's not hard
at all to get other groups involved. You simply have to open
the door and say, ``Come on in and they're more than willing to
help out.''
Mr. Hastert. Mr. LeFew, you're now Treasurer of McHenry
County but you were the mayor of Harvard. I have to go back
into my other life. I was a wrestling coach at a place called
Yorkville. Yorkville and Harvard went around a lot.
Mr. LeFew. Yes, I know that very well.
Mr. Hastert. Back in the days of John Shocco and others, so
I have a great respect for your community and what you've done.
You said you did a lot of work while you were mayor in the
community groups, that you actually went into the schools. Were
the kids receptive when you did that?
Mr. LeFew. They really were and I think it's important
that, while our ordinance got the biggest share of the media
attention, I think the most important thing was what we did in
the schools and church groups and things like that. We had
people like Les Lunsmann going, people that really knew gangs.
You can't have someone going and talk to kids about gangs that
really don't understand them because they'll turn them off.
They won't listen. But we had people going in and it was very
well received.
Also, we had two meetings of all the parents in the
community were invited to the schools at night and we made sure
that we had bilingual translators.
Mr. Hastert. Good turn out?
Mr. LeFew. Excellent turn out. Packed the gymnasium because
people wanted to know and at those meetings we gave the parents
the symbols that the one lady was talking about from Sycamore
and the colors and the listings of some of the things that
parents needed to look for. This is a new problem. While the
parents of today came through the drug generation, they did not
come through the gang generation and this is brand new turf,
brand new area for them, and we really need to do a better job
on educating them and giving them resource materials to deal
with.
Mr. Hastert. Thank you.
Congressman.
Mr. Manzullo. Denny talked about his background before he
became a Congressman. I sometimes see what goes on in chambers
and appreciate the fact that he's a former wrestling coach.
Comes in handy at times.
You know, when I first became a Congressman back in January
1993, I had a letter on my desk from the mayor of Rockford
asking us to get a full-time DEA office and it wasn't too long
after that that I met your boss, Tom Constantine, in a meeting
before the International Relations Committee, the subcommittee
on the Pacific on which I serve. I went up to him and I
introduced myself and I said, you know, we have a tremendous
need in Rockford, IL. Well, he was aware of that because the
trek for drugs comes from Chicago, makes a turn directly north
just outside of Rockford on its way to the Twin Cities.
I think it was within--I know I sent him a letter the next
day imploring him to open up a full-time DEA office. We got a
call, I think within 2 weeks. Pam, I don't know if you were in
the Washington office or not, but a big cheer went up when we
got the word that they were going to get a full-time office
there and then, of course, it's been a tremendous compliment in
drug enforcement.
One of the untold stories is that in our Federal district
court, Judge Rhinehart will not fool around with people
involved in drugs. Mike, you recall, was it last year when--how
many young men got sentenced? Was it 16 of them? Do you recall?
They were involved in a massive drug bust.
Mr. Zawadzki. In Rockford?
Mr. Manzullo. That's correct.
Mr. Zawadzki. Yes. It was 18 people.
Mr. Manzullo. Eighteen people. Remember, a 20 year old was
given life by the judge.
Mr. Zawadzki. Right.
Mr. Manzullo. He said, if I had known I'd be going to
prison for life, I wouldn't have gotten involved in selling
drugs. The judge said, go tell your friends that.
Mr. Zawadzki. Yes, right.
Mr. Manzullo. Good bye. So we have the tremendous resource
of a very tough Federal district judge that simply will not
fool around with it.
Bill, the problem that I have seen centers around parental
involvement. You have a success story there in Harvard on how
to get parents involved before their kids have an opportunity
to taste the drug or to get involved in gang activity. I had to
leave. I had to go outside. You have more constitution than I
do, Denny, but I just had to take a break. Yes, before we get
the coffee. But would you tell us, I mean how do you--you've
got a small intact community there. Relatively small compared
to the larger cities. What is it that peaks the interest of the
parents that will get them to show up in assembly or to get
them involved at an early stage?
Mr. LeFew. Well, there are a certain group of parents that
will always show up, the ones that are actively involved.
Generally, they're not the ones--and there's always exceptions
but generally, they're not the ones whose children you're going
to have the problems with. So we had a challenge to us to
figure out how to get the parents of the ones that don't show
up. So what we did in one of our ordinances, we passed a curfew
ordinance that said if your parent knows that you're out after
curfew and allows you to be out after curfew, you suffer the
same fine. So it got the parents' attention. We rarely, if
ever, enforce that but when the parents started hearing not
only may my child get a fine, but I may get a fine as well and
instead of being the $20 or $30 fines for vandalism and the
things that normally were, we've basically boosted all of our
gang-related fines to $500.
Vandalism by spray paint, for example, before our gang
ordinance was $15. After our gang ordinance, it was $500. So it
got the community's attention very quickly and they all really
came to find out what the gang ordinance was about. And Les
Lunsmann and the police officers and our chief did an excellent
job of educating them on what to look for and then we were
getting calls from parents saying, hey, my son is doing this,
my daughter is wearing this, would you come down and talk to
her again, and we did and we got calls of children asking for
help, parents asking for help to get them out of the gangs. So
it was really a very big success story in our community.
Mr. Manzullo. Keith, the new task force that you have set
up, how do you take that success story from Harvard and
transmit that to the rest of the county?
Mr. Nygren. The current task force that we started up now
is in cooperation with the County Chiefs of Police Association.
We all collectively saw a need to have greater resources to
battle the gang problem throughout the county. So what we've
done is formed together. See, the pieces exist. Sometimes you
don't have to buy a new puzzle. You just have to fit the pieces
that are already there together. Virtually every community in
this country has one or two or more trained, experienced gang
crimes officers. They're already there. They exist.
What we have to do now is bring them together collectively
in a group so that if we're experiencing, say, a problem in the
Harvard area, we could take this gang task force--which, by the
way, will be deputized county-wide so it'll have authority
throughout the county--into Harvard and that chief of police
will then command that unit while the unit is in his or her
town. They'll deal with the problem, then they'll move to the
next community like a strike force, a ready to go strike force
that can go from community to community, has jurisdiction.
Cost-wise, you pay for your officer while your officer is
assigned to another community. When those other officers come
back to your community, their chiefs of police or their
communities pay for them so you incur no cost. You have a
professional strike force of gang officers that's mobile and
from hour to hour can move from community to community, and
that's what we envision it to be. We initially started out
working the festivals. There are a number of festivals in
McHenry County that attract a number of people who both live in
the area as well as out of the area that are involved in gangs.
Over this past week end, I think our gang task force made
contact with 72 known gang members from throughout the area. We
made a number of arrests. We tossed a number of these people
away out of the festivals. Told them if they were representing
or dressing a certain way, they couldn't be there, and they
left and it turned out very positively.
Mr. Manzullo. How do you enforce that? If somebody is
wearing----
Mr. Nygren. We suggest it wouldn't be in their best
interest to represent and they leave on their own.
Mr. Manzullo. Just sort of a subtle thing such as we will
be watching you for the rest of the time you're here, you'd
better leave?
Mr. Nygren. Exactly. If you're going to represent--it's not
just that it's an irritant to us, but it's a danger to them.
When you represent, you can wind up being shot by somebody.
Mr. Manzullo. So there's really a tremendous fear on the
part of gang members when they know they're not welcome.
Mr. Nygren. Exactly.
Mr. Manzullo. And you're not making an arrest and they're
really technically not breaking the law. You just know who they
are and you tell them to get.
Mr. Nygren. Exactly.
Mr. Manzullo. And it works.
Mr. Nygren. It's effective.
Mr. Manzullo. That's great until somebody decides there's
something unconstitutional about it.
Gary, would you tie into that also?
Mr. Pack. We did tie in that the wearing of the colors and
the symbols is what is a major problem here in our county
because a lot of these--most of them are kids. They're not
organized yet, but they're still here and they're kids and
they're transplants from other areas and they come here and
they have their colors and it's a turf war and they want to
stake out their little turf and this is what causes the fights,
the gang fights, sometimes drive by shootings. So I think it's
very imperative that they know that they're not welcome here.
But it is the wearing of these colors and the symbols which
causes the problems. Sometimes they don't even know they're
wearing the symbols or the colors and it does get them in
trouble and it gets them in a fight and that's why we emphasize
the education part of the gang symbolism.
Mr. Manzullo. Well, Pam Maakestad said when she testified
earlier today that her son started wearing--her son's favorite
color always was blue and he had suggested for Christmas gifts
that his family give him clothing with blue and black, having
no indication that this, in fact, these were gang colors and
this had gone on for a considerable period of time and then he
started wearing an athletics hat with the big A up there.
Didn't wear a Cubs hat, didn't wear a White Sox hat. Just
happened to be the A hat and she said that this went on for a
prolonged period of time with no indication to the parent that
this was, in fact, a symbol of the gangs. What colors do the
gangs wear here, Gary? We read about this here in our----
Mr. Pack. Depends on your gang. I mean there are all
different colors.
Mr. Manzullo. Can you get specific? Or would that be
beneficial not to get specific?
Mr. Pack. No. I think the kids--we see the blue and the
black. We'll see red and black. Those are probably the two most
prevalent colors that we see in the area. Blue and black. Red
and black.
Mr. Manzullo. Why does a kid who comes from a household
where there's no indication of any problem get involved with
gangs? Anybody? I know if we knew the answer to that, we could
solve this.
Mr. Nygren. Gangs represent a family for a lot of people
who don't have families. There's a security factor. There's
recognition. That's why the colors are so important. When we
went to high school, you would strive to get a letter for an
athletic team or band or whatever it was and you were very
proud of wearing those school colors. Well, it's no different
with a gang member. They have the same emotional pride that we
had when we were that age, but if you're not very successful
academically or at school or in your church or in your
community or athletically, you want to still be recognized and
part of something, so the gangs fill the void for a lot of
people who don't have those successes.
Mr. Manzullo. I don't want this hearing to end without the
people of McHenry County having some semblance of hope. I mean
we've heard a lot of bad news this afternoon. Where is McHenry
County with relation to other counties this size? Is there more
drug presence here? More gang presence here than in other
counties? Not that that makes it any better or any worse, but I
want us as a result hopefully or partially a result of these
hearings to be able to give the folks of this county some hope
and to point us in a direction where we can try to start or
continue the process of coordinating whatever services are
available.
Mr. Pack. McHenry County is by far the safest county around
to live in and even violent crimes, we have very little violent
crime and the drugs, when you look at the drugs that are found
in other counties or what's being used to deliver, I mean to
the scale, it's a much lower scale in McHenry County. We have a
very large county population-wise. A lot of the to do was not
even law enforcement but all the people, the social services
that really care and there are a lot of programs that are in
there and they do care and they're proactive. They're very
proactive. They're not necessarily reactive. But we have a lot
of agencies that are in there and really caring.
When I said there's a lot of hope for McHenry County
because these programs were instituted just because we fear of
the future. We feared that there was going to be a gang problem
so all these organizations came to play even before there was a
major gang problem. The gang problem in McHenry County is more
of a future potential problem. They are here certainly. There's
something like 400 known gang members, but is that a lot
compared to Kane, Lake, Will, is that a lot? I think if some of
those cities down there had our problem, they would think they
didn't have a problem. But as far as McHenry County standards
go, just one gang member is a problem to us. There's a lot of
hope because we have a lot of law enforcement here that are
taking a very serious look and prevention.
Mr. Hastert. Well, I just want to say Don, I certainly
appreciate your joining me today and appreciate everybody here
that's out fighting this fight. You're in the middle of it day
in and day out. I commend you. I think there is some good news.
I think part of this is communication. I think the type of
networks that Sheriff, you set up and some of the programs, Mr.
LeFew, that you've done certainly are helping. We work every
day with the DEA and Tom Constantine and I have become almost
pen pals. But anyway, there are some things we can do and
certainly joining with the State's attorneys and all those
districts. We had the DeKalb State's attorney and worked with
the Kendall County and Kane County State's attorney to do these
types of things and we need to do the type of networks. We need
to increase the communication. It's a job that you just don't
take one piece of it and work on it. It's where you have to do
the whole ceramic and put every piece of mosaic in place in
order to win the battle. We're trying to do that.
What we would hope to do is take this information today and
at least help that be our parameters when we start to put
together the re-authorization for the drug czar and all those
programs that they work and the appropriation process that
we're beginning to go through, as well.
Don, you have a question.
Mr. Manzullo. One question before we conclude. If a parent
thinks that his or her child is involved in drugs or gangs,
what number can that parent call? What can be done? Call the
Sheriff's Department?
Mr. Nygren. You can certainly do that but, you know, that
may not happen. I'm a realist. But certainly there is a crisis
line, a 1-800 number in McHenry County that people can call.
Mr. Manzullo. Do you know what that is?
Mr. Nygren. Not right off the top of my head. The Youth
Service Bureau works with youngsters. The Communities Against
Gangs programs in each one of the communities in the county are
certainly there to help. You could get hold of Phyllis Walters
for that. She started all those chapters. A trusted school
counselor is a good place to start. In fact, that's where a lot
of kids do go initially is they go to someone in the schools
that they trust.
Mr. Manzullo. Are parents afraid that if they try to get
help for their kids that there'll be a massive arrest and the
child will be caught up and thrown in jail if they don't seek
counseling?
Mr. Nygren. No. I think not any more. I mean years ago that
was the case but no, we take a more understanding,
compassionate approach to parents coming out and asking for
help. They should never be arrested in those cases. They should
be helped.
Mr. Manzullo. Thank you.
Mr. Hastert. We'll leave the record open to include those
numbers.
I'll let Don have the last word. Just want to say thank you
and this hearing is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 3:58 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
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