| home |
Plants for A Future, UK‘Vegan-organics’ or ‘Plant-organics’?14 September 2008, Another contribution, this time from a ‘radical vegan’ 11 September 2008, ‘Vegan-organics’ or ‘Plant-organics’? – two discussions (latest first): Jon Kean, last post, and first post J&C, last post, and first post
Plants For A Future current Memorandum and Articles, MS Word download
Great reply. This starts to look like the beginning of an agenda for October meeting. I like POP. I think there are examples whereby mixed farming systems have supplied city networks, but I am not advocating it as an alternative, in an either/or sense. I am saying that vegan-organics with PFAF current M&A excludes it. It was the exclusion that I was querying.
Cheers
Jon
Hi Jon, Thank you for this thoughtful email. I don’t have time right now to tell you the story – to the extent that I know it because I was not there – of how Ken Fern got surrounded by vegans, and how the M&A got written. I agree with all you say here. However, the kinds of sustainable mixed agricultural land use you describe only work when the people/land ratio is small, and has not worked for systems which supply cities. Prompted by what ‘C’ said, I am beginning to think that PFAF should drop ‘vegan-organics’, which does mean strictly stock free, and revise the M&A accordingly. I’ve been thinking ‘Plant-Organic Permaculture’ – ‘POP’ – so that we can incorporate Mollison’s idea of maximising yields: see the second visionary bit: http://plantsforafuture.org.uk/worldchangevisionaries.htm . In theory, permaculture allows the re-building of soils in very degraded or otherwise adverse situations, also it allows plants to be grown under cover with light, so one could grow tropical fruits in northern Canada – and I believe people do. Now that we have 3 trustees and are legal, we can make changes to the M&A, and think through how we are going to work on research and education and promotion of ‘POP’, or whatever we call our kind of land-use methods, models, designs, systems…. Must dash. wbw, Chris
M & A From: jon kean (jon@pennerley.net) Sent: 01 September 2008 10:45:37 To: Chris Marsh (chris_e_marsh@hotmail.com)
Thanks for the M & A.
I’d like a bit of background please on vegan organics. I have looked at some websites and read some of the blogs and wonder at what point did PFAF adopt this as an integral part of their M & A? And why? Promoting alternative plant use seems totally right, but I am struggling with the exclusion of all animal related matter except human. 2 questions arise.
1) We have the example of Southern India which is culturally vegetarian and they live with their cattle and other animals, not on them. Life cycles of plants, insects etc are so complex, that there must be a danger by excluding any one group. Often pollinators of trees, live on grasses/plants that need grazing. The current thinking seems to indicate that rather than blanket forest as a climatic vegetation, there has always been a patchwork of meadow/grassland and trees maintained by naturally occurring fires or by ungulates. This keeps the trees healthy. Grass = yin, trees = yang as I like to think. Balance being essential. So not only can it be seen to work, but animal matter and grazing seems to be necessary, so why exclude it as a matter of principle? When perhaps keeping animals for their manure and grazing is a good thing to do. Otherwise they will become extinct.
2) Spreading human excrement untreated onto land needs to be very carefully done to avoid the spread of disease. Was this exclusion added to Clause 6 to satisfy the “crusties” or is there something else I have missed? I may be biased here having walked through fields in the north where untreated sewage had been spread, having to pick my way through tampons, cotton buds and other things.
We created a new herb bed this weekend, using no dig methods and well rotted vegan compost which was rather pleasing. we have three terrace beds that are approximately 2 metres by 1 and want to put perennial species in. Could you recommend any. Do PFAF have any plants that would sit in these beds that they want trialling? As a matter of interest – how do PFAF know that by advocating a particular species that they are not introducing another alien invader?
Please excuse all these questions – it is my way of gaining understanding – more an activist than an academic learning style.
Best wishes
Jon
Hi Chris
The Trustee recruitment seems to be going well. Good. I’m away from the office for a few days but I’m sure I have a question or two (groan) lurking somewhere as a result of our exchanges, however, they’ll have to wait until early next week. Enjoy the weekend.
Regards C
080831 We have a new trustee at PFAF, Jon Kean. Here, below [actually above], is what he says about what we three have been discussing, before, I gather, reading the text of our exchanges which I had attached to my email to him – and I attach here in case you’d like a record of what we’ve said so far. It’s not easy to follow in this latest-first form, but difficult to assemble in any other way. Chris x
080830
Hi C, Thank you for your Devil’s advocacy. Thankfully PFAF is not up for canonisation or the Devil’s challenges would disqualify us. I think – and hope – that the changes in ideology/principles/aspirations which I would like to see us adopting are less complicated than your Devil makes out. Today’s Guardian has this piece about the Soil Association: ‘Soil Association chief calls for organic change’, Leo Hickman, Guardian 30 August 2008 The Soil Association should consider abandoning the use of the term “organic” because it risks putting too many people off, Monty Don, the organic certifying body’s new president has said. Instead, the term “sustainable” should be used. In his first newspaper interview since officially taking up the post, the former Gardeners World presenter has called for the association, the UK’s biggest organics organisation, to tackle the common perception that it is “for wealthy, middle class people indulging in their penchant for peasant food”. “Organic is loaded with a sense of rightness, with a set of rules. We’ve got to move away from making people feel lesser because they’re not [eating] organic,” he said. “There is no doubt about it that sustainable is a better expression for the same sorts of ideas than organic.” I think that’s the kind of thing PFAF needs to do: in our case move away from vegan exclusivity and vegan-organic rules, and look at how we can contribute to sustainability. I used to have problems with the word ‘sustainable’, especially the oxymoronic ‘sustainable development’, but it is understood and accepted by the general public, and I like the Permaculture Magazine’s ‘solutions for sustainable living’. I take your point about ‘companion animals’ being a fudge that could be ridiculed, and I shall avoid that in future. (It was in the context of wanting to get around the restrictive covenant on Blagdon specifying vegan-organic land use, in order to sell the land to a dedicated permaculture group who insisted they had to have a few, much-loved chickens.) One of the people on the research team said that we have to be clear about what we mean by ‘stock’ and ‘exploitation’, and surely that’s reasonable to do. Thanks for your interest and help. Maybe some of this could go in a newsletter or whatever when we get around to that. wbw, Chris
Hi Chris
Thanks for the Memorandum and Articles. The Devil she have an advocate!
From a management point of view (assuming this project was my baby, so to speak) – and as a fully paid-up and practising omnivore to boot – I think trying to go outside the spirit of the objectives of the charity and those of the founder might be a pot-noodle too far! Saying that domesticated herds/flocks of animals can be counted as ‘companion animals’ under PFAF’s definition of vegan-organic horticulture and agriculture* surely will open the charity to degrees of ridicule and derision from all shades of veganism? Especially now that the Stockfree Organic Standards (which I’m unlikely to get time to read) are being adopted by a wider range of growers and producers than one might expect (according to I’net reports).
*Clause 6c, for example, is very clear both in letter and spirit isn’t it? (Yes, it’s as practised on PFAF’s own land, but your premise is, I think, that if you (PFAF) allow companion stock on your own vegan-organic land, it must be OK for everyone.)
So, if I was an existing Trustee I’d have a real problem with what you are thinking of proposing: changing the standard concept of ‘companion animals’ (pets) to encompass the expedient use of chicken shit** in the hope of persuading non-vegans that ‘vegan-organic horticulture’ is a toothless term. Seriously, for what good reason should this aspect of the M&As be changed – watered down from the founding father’s concepts – in order to achieve the charity’s objectives?*** Is this simply to gain greater acceptance among the omnivorous gardeners of GB? Well then, don’t tinker, change the objectives and be done with it! (I wouldn’t have such an issue with the ‘vegan Trustees’ thing as long as say a majority (60%?) were practising a vegan lifestyle.)
**Similarly, one can make a good argument for using pigs to clear unruly land; goats to graze steep hillsides; and if they were owned by me, they would all be looked after like pets, but I wouldn’t see them in quite the same ‘companion’ light as my cat, for example.
*** The Charity’s Objects are to advance the education of the public by the promotion of all aspects of ecologically sustainable vegan-organic horticulture and agriculture with an emphasis on tree, shrub and other perennial species; and the undertaking of research into such horticulture and agriculture, and dissemination of the results of such research.
Perennial implies more permanent, so must encompass an emphasis on some form of permaculture (small p, and probably big P too). Can you not build your personal issue/focus/message – whatever it is that you want to disseminate to a wide audience re fears about food security, et al: the need for diversity, self-reliance, sustainability, etc – around what is unique about the charity as it is?
Quote: Our founder, Ken Fern, certainly does now – and says he always did – take the view that the practice of vegan-organic horticulture could usefully be adopted by non-vegans, and needs to be if this country is to be self-reliant in food.
Well there you are then, find a way of getting that across – promote the practical, garden, permaculture of perennial and edible plants to both vegans and non-vegans by pointing out (as J is doing in each design/build) how the plants can be grown and used for food, medicine, fuel, compost, etc; how they ARE grown under a Vegan Stockfree Standard****, but how they are equally valuable and easy to grow and eat, in a mixed horticulture/agriculture system. (**** Because that’s what your results – if any quantifiable – will be based on.) Focus on showing/demonstrating what the immediate benefits are to the grower and what the wider benefits are to the local community; then gently follow this with a picture of the benefits to the region, country, universe, and so on. Job done, all objectives met, all pigs fed and ready to fly.
Quote: I shared this anecdote with ‘The Field’ research team and they said that the extreme vegan view would have to be challenged because sustainability matters more.
What on earth does that mean? ‘extreme vegan view would have to be challenged because sustainability matters more’ – eh? – and tell me, are these people busy challenging the views of extreme vegans themselves or are they just mouthing platitudes? Saying what they think the people in front of them want to hear?
Enough! The Devil she must go and get on with paid work now: another gross or five of souls to the fires before the clock strikes 13 – got em queueing down here! “OK people, move right along now – more room inside...”
Enjoy!
C
Hi J, Thank you very much for your thoughtful account of where you stand on the ‘vegan question’. This certainly does not rule you out for joining PFAF as a trustee or supporter or in any other capacity. Just after you raised this question, I had a meeting with the people who are going to carry out the study of ‘The Field’, Ken Fern’s experimental plot in Cornwall, and I asked for their opinions. Their responses were very much in accord with what you say about vegan-organic horticulture supplementing other forms of horticulture ‘to maximise yields, increase biodiversity and reduce oil dependency’. People are going to be positioning themselves at different points on a scale with ‘strictly vegan on principle’ at one extreme and various personal stands like your idea of no rules other than aiming for small-scale, mixed and traditional, and aiming for sustainability. I had a colleague years ago – a peace activist – who was strictly vegan and she depended on pot noodles, saying she would have any flavour, including beef, because no meat went into them, and she was not bothered about E numbers. I shared this anecdote with ‘The Field’ research team and they said that the extreme vegan view would have to be challenged because sustainability matters more. wbw, Chris
080829
Hi Chris and C,
Here’s where I stand on the vegan question. I hope this won’t count me out for joining the PFAF team!
All the best,
J
Hi C, Thank you for raising this crucial point – which is a timely warning and shows that I need you!
PFAF doesn’t define vegan-organic horticulture differently, and it does mean ‘stock free’, see our Mem&Arts attached. But there is this potentially grey area of ‘companion animals’, which are not ‘stock’ since they are presumably not being exploited. Maybe some vegans would say that ‘pets’ are exploited, do you know? Our Mem&Arts actually require Trustees to be vegans, and only one of us has been for some years now, and of the new people coming forward interested in that role, only one is vegan – and I am keen for him to join so that that view is represented. We do need to get the vegan trustees clause removed from the governing document, and may be we could loosen up the rule about ‘companion animals’ at the same time: the bit about ‘as long as this does not conflict...’, and later ‘land is not to be used as a sanctuary for ... non-wild species’. Our founder, Ken Fern, certainly does now – and says he always did – take the view that the practice of vegan-organic horticulture could usefully be adopted by non-vegans, and needs to be if this country is to be self-reliant in food.
Thank you again for raising this point, and I will think further about how the loosening up I would like to see in the definition can be reconciled with any ‘formal standards’.
wbw, Chris
Hi Chris
Very briefly as I’m pushed for time: I think you need to explain to me why PFAF chooses to use a different definition/interpretation of vegan-organic horticulture/agriculture. Different, that is from VON and the stock-free standards they promote (now accepted by the soil association??????), from the Vegan Society, and so on.
I automatically assumed when I read PFAF’s objectives ...vegan-organic horticulture and agriculture... that vegan-organic meant stock-less. (And PFAF’s website seems to concur with that view.) How will you explain PFAF’s different designation of the term? I’d hazard a guess that most ‘average Jo’ people like me will make an automatic assumption about the meaning; and further that their assumption will be roughly in line with what vegans mean when they use the phrase vegan-organic horticulture/agriculture, ie stock-free.
Yours confusedly :-)) :-))
C
080828
Thank you both, very much, and C, I loved the ‘Stop it!’ video, and J, it would be brilliant to have you for a trustee, and to meet you in October.
More thoughts, in response to yours:
The issue[s] of avoiding [being] [seen as] “‘cult’, ‘clique’, or ‘weirdo’” – if you see what I mean – comes up all the time in different guises and situations, as does the contrary ‘thing’ of avoiding [being] [seen as] “mainstream”. I don’t know if you registered that I also have a Lefty persona: www.des4rev.org.uk, and it comes up there, and results in mega-sectarianism, which is part of the reason there’s been no Revolution. It comes up in regular politics too. I remember discussing ‘carrying out a permaculture design for Britain’ with a fellow member (then, not now) of the Green Party, at a GP conference at which Maddy Harland was a speaker, as was Helena Norberg Hodge of ISEC, who was then highly sceptical of permaculture, but is now on the list of ‘Consultant Editors’ of Permaculture Magazine, which I’ve been on since the beginning: 1991, I think it was, when the Harlands took over the Permaculture Assoc newsletter, previously edited by Graham Bell, and I could tell you some stories about the factions then …
The other issue is vegan-organics, but without the ‘vegan’ sectarianism. For me that’s a practical matter, and only permaculture if one’s thinking ‘permaculture design for Britain’. Nothing wrong with chicken shit, even Fukuoka used that. There was a permaculture group which wanted to buy PFAF’s North Devon land at Blagdon, and I tried hard to sell it to them, and argued then that their plan to have small livestock, esp. chickens, did not contravene the restrictive covenant specifying vegan-organic land use, chicken being, in effect, ‘companion animals’, which the PFAF definition of vegan-organic land use allows. What the ‘permaculture design for Britain’, in other words a food-secure, self-reliant Britain, wouldn’t allow is 10m cattle (and however many pigs and sheep in the UK herd – must look that up…), fed locally.
Another problem, as I see it, with permaculture, is it fell victim to Enlightenment thinking, the big bugbear of the developed world. That wasn’t (just?) the fault of the ‘early [hippy] adopters’ of permaculture in Britain, who founded PAB and set up the Design courses. It was started by Mollison himself. As I read Permaculture One, it is practical, specific, and about gardening, how to grow food. The later books are much more conceptual, focussed on ‘the design thing’. Much later you get Patrick’s Earth Care Manual, which has the usual “I’m not going to tell you how to grow ‘carrots and peas’” (‘About This Book’ (p.ix?)), which I first encountered on my Introduction to Permaculture course in 1991, given by Patrick and the late David Watkins (Urban Permaculture). It is this problem which I see PFAF addressing. I want us to be about practice, knowing about useful plants, keeping records, measuring yields, having an eye to the big picture, a food-secure, self-reliant Britain: the ‘permaculture design for Britain’ thing, if you like, and if PFAF is part of PIB.
Chris x
Hi
I may not be an expert on plants – edible or otherwise – but I sure am experienced in dealing with SNAFU – T shirts, caps, badges, videos, you name it and I’ve collected it – and the accompanying grey hair! I can sympathise.
I’m instinctively with you on the premise that the most widely useful target group for a ‘practical’, ‘do it now’, permaculture message is the UK’s gardeners and allotment holders. But – as you highlight in ‘My problem with ‘permies’’ and ‘Whither Permaculture In Britain?’ – it has to be a ‘straight’ message, not seen as ‘cult’, ‘clique’, or ‘weirdo’, and which sets out clear benefits and ‘how tos’. For my money, the bigger issues could ride along quite happily on the back of ‘how to make practical application of permaculture’s principles on your veggie plot’. (Hey, I’m trying to find that out for myself right now!)
Some people will take on the bigger issues but many will not – but if more people are being more self-reliant and producing delicious things to eat for themselves without undue harm to others and the environment, and without replacing one gain with a worse ill, at this stage does it matter that much? So yes, you need quantifiable results from a variety of sources and they need to be applicable – I need to be able to relate them to me and mine. (Right now we could do with a new Geoff Smith too!)
However, I still bother about a vegan-organic (stock-free) horticulture message embedded within a practical permaculture message holder. Which is as it would have to be to meet the objectives of the charity. Let’s face it, most of us (lotty holders) are wedded to our chicken sh.. not to mention our Sunday roast. And for the importance of the vegan-organic (stock-free) horticulture proposition to ‘go home’ (to make sense, to be taken up by non-vegans) you surely have to start with the bigger picture, the bigger issues...? And to my mind that’s a much harder task – decidedly self-limiting on impact and acceptance, I would think.
So here we are again... deep in conundrum land :-))
Yes, by all means bounce ideas off me! I’ll process them best I can when I can – which sometimes may not be speedy. I’m sure I’ll learn a lot in the process.
Just to end (or start) the day with a little humour – I just shared this with a client who was asking about how she could stop all her negative thinking – cheered her up no end. Makes me smile too. Hopefully it’ll antidote the evils of co-dependency counselling (or whatever it’s called)! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYLMTvxOaeE&feature=related
Cheers,
C
Hi Chris and C,
I would be happy to set a date to meet and join the Trustees—October would be best for me. C—where do you live? I’m in L---r, and would be travelling by train southwards, assuming any meeting would be in Devon.
Chris—I completely agree with what you wrote just now about having ‘a bit of history’ and ‘my own stuff’. I have this with the biodynamic movement, and can see the same issues arising with the Permaculture movement. My ‘stuff’ is that I’m actually a mainstream sort of person, albeit live as sustainable a lifestyle as possible. I believe in ‘getting things done’ and being pragmatic (the art of the do-able). My ‘stuff’ is about movements that seek to live only within their own loop, without openness to other people’s thinking and exploration. I do try and be able to mix with and communicate with all sorts of people—off-grid crusties as well as my local Chamber of Commerce members (I’m a member!). It is lack of professionalism that really irks me—pushes all my buttons. Undue waftiness as well. Having said that, I’m not actually a materialist at all, and regularly seek connection with the more spiritual side of things.
So, there’s my confession!
I look forward to meeting and speaking with you both, and the other existing folk.
All the best,
J
080827 Hi C, ‘J’ is … happy to be ‘open’ with you, so here is her email address. I do understand what you say about time and commitment. I hadn’t really thought through how the two of you might help, but you both seem interested and sympathetic to what I see as the potential of PFAF. I have rescued this charity from what Rich Morris called ‘SNAFU’ – situation normal, all f----d up – and he was right but also part of the problem; he was the bane of my life but I’m fond of him too, and full of sympathy for his having been dreadfully put upon, and as he saw it ‘betrayed’. I was holding this sickly baby for years before I managed to get it sorted. And by a fluke really, we have some money in the bank and the freedom to move forward. Plus we can build on Ken Fern’s reputation, and the importance for many people of the plants database. As well as that, I have ‘a bit of history’ with permaculture, and what I want PFAF to do is make good the area of neglect, failure or whatever, of what I call PIB, permaculture in Britain, this nation of gardeners. I think I’m ‘right’ about this, but also it’s ‘my stuff’. So what I need is people I can be open with, and bounce ideas off, so I can feel that PFAF isn’t just my baby, but at the same time, it moves forward in the way I’d like to see. Have you time for that? What do you think? Warm regards, Chris
080827
Hi Chris
With regard to sharing information with J, I’m happy to make contact with he/she on a one-to-one basis – no problem – please use this email address.
In the case of to one-to-many communications I prefer to remain email address anonymous, or at least camouflaged, thus for circular emails to your group, please continue to use the sneakmail address I gave.
Regarding ‘...and to continue to help me, in particular to develop the aims and practices of what I am thinking of as the ‘third phase’ of PFAF.’ How do you see that happening exactly? Sorry to be mundane in the face of an exciting opportunity but, like J, I have to earn a living and right now I am not blessed with time for further chartable acts. (Being committed to giving time regularly at a local charity that provides practical help – inc complementary therapies – to those living with cancer and their carers.) And like yourself, by the sound of things, I’ve been the ‘overstretched route’ and am now trying hard not to become ‘thin’ and frazzled by that method!
It is an exciting opportunity, Chris, but I need a bit more about the what, whys, and wherefores before I give you a more committed response.
Kind regards
C
080826J&C
Dear ‘J’’ and ‘C’,
Having offered the option of having the new PFAF email group anonymous/Bcc, I feel I should be consistent with it until explicitly told otherwise, i.e. that I can use names and email addresses openly in specific circumstances.
I am sending this email to the two of you because I have enjoyed our exchanges so much, and perhaps you would like to know each other, and to continue to help me, in particular to develop the aims and practices of what I am thinking of as the ‘third phase’ of PFAF. (I have just sent the attached report to Maddy at Permaculture Magazine.)
So, also attached, is first of all my exchange with ‘J’, latest first, and after that the one with ‘C’, both with your names and emails taken out – I hope consistently!
Warm regards, Chris
RE: What is the ‘New’ PFAF? From: J Sent: 21 August 2008 09:09:31 To: Chris Marsh (chris_e_marsh@hotmail.com)
Hi Chris,
I agree with you--it’s about creating the evidence base. What we need is to get the RHS on board with nationwide trials, like they do annually with vegetable and flower cultivars. I believe the Biodynamic Association (of which I’m also a member) is doing something similar with trialling the BD preparations (new generation of) and then submitting the vegetables to chemical and life-force analysis (have a look at their website for more info).
What is so exciting about PFAF is that many of the plants will fit into urban, suburban and non-prime bits of land, thus not be in competition with the existing allotments/agriculture/horticulture sites. For instance, every suburban plot could be replacing its ornamental hedges with edible ornamental hedges, its groundcover with edibles, etc. Ditto public parks, supermarket car parks landscaping, universities and colleges, etc.
Let me know when you’re planning to meet with prospective folks, and if you would like me to be one of the expanded committee. I have lots of ideas and practical experience in the interface between mainstream and permaculture. I also know ND at Sheffield Uni who is at the forefront nationally (and probably also internationally) about devising applications for permaculture into landscape architecture, and thus into the mainstream public built environment.
Personally, I also have an academic background,(albeit in languages, not the sciences) so like you, I believe in research and evidence, as well as scientific rigor and peer-reviewed papers and journals. I speak fluent French and German and I am keen to liaise with permaculture activists and other practical folks on the Continent.
Perhaps you could give me a ring sometime soon, so we could discuss how to go forward?
Best wishes,
J
…
080821
Hi J,
Thank you! I hope so too.
My criticism/observation about permaculture is that there has been a focus on design and the initiation of plot designs, and little in the way of follow-up to see if a design works out, and if and how ‘what works’ can feed into collective knowledge. My partner, David, and I wrote a piece for permaculture magazine ages ago about what we called ‘permaculture audit’. The comments that came back tended towards the old ‘permaculture isn’t just gardening’ – which is true, but no excuse for failing to be methodical about the gardening.
What I think we need for PFAF to make a difference is suggestions for plots to study which seem to have worked, but where – as is very common – records have not been kept at all methodically and yields not measured. If you know of any, do please let us know.
Best wishes, Chris
Hi Chris,
The more I read of your thoughts, the more I’d like to become involved, trustee-wise or otherwise.
I hope that my work actually designing and constructing urban, sub-urban and middle-class rural folks’ gardens can be useful in trying out some of the plant combinations and spreading the good news about Permaculture!
Best wishes,
J
RE: Trustee, database, administration and moderator.... From: J Sent: 18 August 2008 16:10:31 To: ‘ Chris Marsh’ (chris_e_marsh@hotmail.com)
Hi Chris,
Thanks for your response, as well as the email re minutes of last meeting.
Thinking about the trustee question, and possible paid work:
I think I can be more of use as a trustee than doing the website/database/admin work.
If the charity can afford to pay my train fare to attend meetings, and you feel the necessary work would fit into the two days’ journey time (down and up the country!), and we meet quarterly, then I would be pleased to become a trustee (if you feel my knowledge, skills and experience are worth the expense of my travel costs).
I hope this is helpful.
Best wishes,
J
080816 Hi again, J, >Hi again Chris,
>Thank you for your thoughtful response. I’m still thinking about the trustee part as well. Here are my thoughts: I’ll try to answer your questions/points.
>How long a commitment are you looking for (I assume at least a year, perhaps 3?) We currently have no rules or procedures of the kind you imply; probably we should have.
>Would the hours spent travelling be enough to do the reading and preparation for and after the meetings? (As you said, you’re not asking trustees to do administration tasks) If you have a lengthy journey by public transport, I dare say you could fit this into the time; I have often done that myself. I have always expected agenda and papers to go out at least a week in advance, and I like to encourage the keeping of ‘Quaker-style’ minutes at meetings – that’s where the minutes are limited to decisions and actions and written and agreed at the meeting.
>Would being a trustee exclude me from doing paid work for PFAF (conflict of interest, but I need to earn a living) Well, it certainly used to do, at least there was a pretty low amount which was allowed, but the rules seem to be changing. I’ve always thought of trusteeship as necessarily an unpaid role, apart from out-of-pocket expenses, although recognised ‘professionals’ such as accountants may charge fees. My feeling is that it is better to keep voluntary trusteeship and paid work for the Charity separate.
>L---r is far away from Devon, would my train fare and expenses to attend meetings be paid for? (My current earnings are very low.) I believe very strongly that trustees’ out-of-pocket expenses should be paid by the Charity, and have insisted on that for myself. People who don’t need that can always donate the money back.
>I look forward to your thoughts when you get a moment. >Let me also say that I use Plants for a Future (the book) frequently when designing planting plans. I’m always delighted to hear that Ken Fern’s work is useful to people. From the start he had a ‘local and global’ vision http://www.plantsforafuture.org.uk/worldchangevisionaries.htm , and I know he is keen for the new phase of the Charity to take the vision beyond his research site down in Cornwall.
>Best wishes, >J
I look forward to hearing from you again.
Warm regards, Chris
RE: Trustee, database, administration and moderator.... From: J Sent: 14 August 2008 16:17:27 To: ‘ Chris Marsh’ (chris_e_marsh@hotmail.com)
Hi again Chris,
Thank you for your thoughtful response. I’m still thinking about the trustee part as well. Here are my thoughts: How long a commitment are you looking for (I assume at least a year, perhaps 3?) Would the hours spent travelling be enough to do the reading and preparation for and after the meetings? (As you said, you’re not asking trustees to do administration tasks) Would being a trustee exclude me from doing paid work for PFAF (conflict of interest, but I need to earn a living) L---r is far away from Devon, would my train fare and expenses to attend meetings be paid for? (My current earnings are very low.) I look forward to your thoughts when you get a moment. Let me also say that I use Plants for a Future (the book) frequently when designing planting plans. Best wishes, J
080814 Hi J, Thank you very much for getting in touch. I’m sure PFAF will be able to take advantage of your interest and your skills. At the moment we’re a bit stuck because we must have a third trustee to go ahead with anything new. A number of people have tentatively said they might take that voluntary role but no one has committed as yet. I do understand that because there is the danger of trustees taking on too much; we’ve all done that in various situations, but I’m determined not to let that happen here, so I’m just as much interested in people, such as yourself, who could take on one of the responsibilities but want to be paid. So please do keep in touch. We are getting there. Sorry, but I don’t think I can manage a Convergence: too physically strenuous for me, but maybe other people interested in PFAF’s future could meet up there – you could put up a notice…? Best wishes, Chris PS Your website looks gorgeous, though not explored it yet. I’ve got a simple one for the PFAF transition with a few bits on: www.plantsforafuture.org.uk
Trustee, database, administration and moderator.... From: J Sent: 13 August 2008 23:41:43 To: chris_e_marsh@hotmail.com Dear Chris,
I was just browsing the Permaculture website to see if the workshops for the convergence had been uploaded yet.
I saw the post regarding Plants for a Future.
I would be interested in the various roles, particularly the working ones for pay (-----, so don’t know if I’ll have any spare capacity as a trustee, though if I’m not elected, I would like to be considered).
Rather than write a long letter, if you would like to browse my website, you’ll see what I’m about and what my skills and interests are. Perhaps you could then get in touch if you feel I might be suitable to carry out some of the tasks. I’ll also be at the convergence, so if you’re coming, we might be able to speak then?
Obviously, I live and work in L---r, at the other end of the country from Devon. However, I do have space to share my rented office, in case the kit and caboodle could move up North….
Best wishes,
J
080824 Hi Chris Thanks, that’s some list! I’ll print it off and see which titles ‘speak’. The Earth Care Manual arrived a few days ago and I’m slowly progressing through it; I already have his How to... Forest Garden book. Kind regards C
080823 Hi C, Here’s a ‘reading list’ for you to dip into: http://www.des4rev.org.uk/landbooks.htm . I should probably pick out the key ones... wbw, Chris
080822 Hi C,
I said I’d get back to you to reply to your interesting points.
I said in my recent paper on the ‘new’ PFAF that my comments on permaculture in Britain are ‘sensitive’, also that I’m critical but not negative because, although I’ve been disappointed in my first hopes of the movement, what they have done has been valuable. Having said that, I’ve been exasperated at times: see (in confidence, please): http://www.des4rev.org.uk/permies.htm
You asked for my ‘suggested reading list’, and I was a bit premature in offering that, partly as a spur to get on with it. There will be a good long list soon, meanwhile I’ve just added one book to a short list of important books I put on my first website in 2004: http://www.des4rev.org.uk/#booksonlanddeg
Your useful comment on the database I’ve passed on to the two people doing the proposal for the new website and database.
Thank you, as always, for your interest in PFAF. I’m excited by the interest and useful comments, and offers of help and involvement, which are coming in. Everything takes time but I feel we’ll ‘get there’ and be able to do something useful, the research side being what interests me most: let’s get some good information about yields, and designs and methods which really work.
Kind regards, Chris
Re: What is the ‘New’ PFAF? From: C Sent: 20 August 2008 22:05:32 To: chris_e_marsh@hotmail.com
Hi Chris
I kinda guessed that would be the case for Permaculture: quite a lot of talking to itself, and ‘good works of high profile’ type stuff. Hopefully those second-generation teachers are now teaching a wider audience, rather than just more teachers? The wider audience seems to be the target of quite a bit of the teaching in the South West – I see the WEA in Wiltshire, for example, is involved in promoting courses to its target audience. Good.
However, finding a course here in the Midlands during the autumn/winter appears not to be so easy. For my money the various colours of the permaculture brigade should be banging on at every gardener and allotment holder who will listen. And what better time than now, eh? The waiting list for allotments in Harborough District Council’s area has gone up a hundredfold in the last two years. And with an economic squeeze to add weight to the activities of ‘designer’ chefs and the great and the good, the list will likely get longer.
Because of the seeming dearth of courses hereabouts, I shall email Chris Dixon tomorrow to ask how much he would charge to travel/stay over for a weekend in order to teach an introductory course. It may well be more economical, and have greater local benefit, to find five more interested souls from amongst the local veg-growers society or whatever and run a course here rather than me travel to Dorset or wherever for several weekends.
I should like to receive your suggested reading list.
I was just thumbing through the database and the structure seems quite, I don’t know, cumbersome? Often, what’s stated under ‘physical characteristics’ seems at first glance at odds with the ‘cultivation details’? Mostly, on close inspection, it’s not at odds, but the phrasing in ‘physical characteristics’ is such that you have to read it several times because you’re convinced you have just read something containing a number of mutually exclusive terms. (And sometimes it is at odds.) The ‘cultivation details’ are mostly clearer and easier to read. It’s perhaps a poor range of pre-set choices in the physical characteristics entry field(s) that make it appear ‘wooden’? Whatever, it seemed kinda irksome to me, but then I’m just a picky so and so!
Kind regards
C
Hi Chris
Thanks for answers to my queries. Glad that you have two, maybe three, people who can do the website and database work.
Yes, I agree totally: “...that these researches, ideas and models are worth exploring, hence the study we’ve commissioned of Ken Fern’s original experimental site”.
Just think of the value of the edible plant information (database which I have yet to trawl through) for people like me who are prone to hypoglycaemia and avoid, where possible, processed grains, potatoes... ‘fast’ carbs. (Stuff that turns to sugar too quickly.) We have a large need for diverse plant matter composed of ‘slow carbs’. People with Crohn’s disease, ulcerative colitis, celiac disease, diverticulitis, cystic fibrosis and chronic diarrhoea, who take responsibility for their own care and healing could all benefit, to one degree or another, from information about the carbohydrate structure of diverse edible plants. Lots of work has been done on this but... it could another ‘route to market’ – a means of ‘carrying’ the underlying concept, the ethos. If you have the correct dietary-use information, a practical model for ‘how best to grow’, and can persuade those with a real need of the value and ease of growing and harvesting the plants for themselves... you have another target group who are motivated and receptive. Just thinking out loud, top of head stuff... but there could be a fascinating piece of work there! Anyway... enough, must get on!
“...my intention has always been to assess or audit other alternative land use sites to assess their success in quantitative as well as qualitative terms.” That will be interesting.
“Did you see my response to Simon? This is a political and tactical issue: What can we do to put alternative land use models into practice?, rather than What is the best way of the ones we have now?” I did. Yes indeed, what can we do? I guess getting those farmers who are organic to move more in the direction of a permaculture/more sustainable approach is likely an easier task than scaling the bastions of the agro-chemical brigade. Likewise, getting the veggie gardeners and allotment holders won over in some measure... (BTW, what have the permaculture brigade been doing for the last twenty years then?)
Interesting stuff. If I can help then I am always pleased to work on freelance projects which hold some interest; or if of more mundane nature, tasks that contribute to something worthwhile. You have a reasonable idea of my skills and interests so I’ll leave things with you. Most of my work is done by email but sometimes it’s ‘good to talk’ – my telephone number is --- and the answering machine is enabled 24/7. Say who you are and if I’m available I’ll pick it up – if I don’t pick up, leave me contact details and I’ll get back to you.
Kind regards
C
080817
Hi C,
Thank you for your intelligent and thoughtful reply – with questions. I’ve added my responses with ‘***’ below.
1) Website and database: although I have strong skills with regard to the structure and presentation of information, I doubt I have the skills to manage all of the technical aspects of the website and database – or put another way, almost certainly I would have need for outsourced technical support.
*** We’ve got two people – and maybe a third one today – with impressive, and it would seem complementary, website and database skills. The two have agreed to prepare a proposal, and when we’ve got that, it could be that there are tasks in the package which would suit and interest you. I think we would need people with a keen eye for ‘structure and presentation’ to look critically at what they propose, and it would be great if we could have your comments.
2) I am not vegan or even vegetarian – might this be a stumbling block? I can subscribe to the charity’s objectives – those ARE it’s objectives and they are admirable – but at the end of the day I could not stand up in front of a meeting and say: Plants for a Future is THE (only) way forward. I think it’s a very important aspect of any solution towards food security for this country and beyond, but it is not the only solution. For some people it will be the way forward but for others it will not.
*** Not being vegan or vegetarian is definitely not a problem now, although there was a phase in PFAF’s history when it was taken up by ideological vegans and animal rights people, and that WAS a problem. And I agree that PFAF: identifying new useful plants plus vegan organic horticulture, is not the only way forward. However, I do feel that these researches, ideas and models are worth exploring, hence the study we’ve commissioned of Ken Fern’s original experimental site – and my intention has always been to assess or audit other alternative land use sites to assess their success in quantitative as well as qualitative terms.
Over the years I’ve taken an interest in human metabolism and metabolic types (at a very lay level, I hasten to add). In part this is because some years ago my body decided to stop masking a raft of allergies, and in part because there came a time when becoming vegetarian was very appealing. Well, being vegetarian was an interesting six-month exercise in ill health if ever there was one! This was the point at which I became aware, not just of the broad metabolic ‘types’, but acutely aware that each human has a very individual metabolic make-up. One man’s meat can certainly be another man’s poison.
*** I have a granddaughter who is most definitely a carnivore, despite her mother, my daughter, being veggie-inclined. I don’t have any expertise on metabolic types but have encountered various persuasive theories on this.
So it would be incongruent of me to pretend that one model of sustainable food production would fit all – the model for my personal need would be as depicted by Simon Fairlie’s ‘livestock permaculture’[see http://transitionculture.org/2007/12/20/can-britain-feed-itself/]. Given that we need more than one solution to this complex problem – and that the sustainable solutions ought to be able to borrow and adapt from one another, then I would hold lots in common with what I’ve just read about PFAF.
*** Did you see my response to Simon? This is a political and tactical issue: What can we do to put alternative land use models into practice?, rather than What is the best way of the ones we have now?
Although I am a relative ‘newbie’ to active sustainability and it’s promotion, I find I can no longer ‘just sit here’ – I have to do something more (hence a desire to learn Permaculture design). And if my lack of veganism isn’t seen as a block – or a serious distraction – I’d be happy to supply suitable skills to the business of Plants for a Future.
*** Yes please, we need people like you.
Warm regards, Chris
Hello Chris
I attach a brief CV for your perusal and that of the other Trustee(s) as appropriate.
Thanks for the link to http://www.plantsforafuture.org.uk/websitedatabaseproposal.htm – I have spent a happy few hours having a ‘first read through’ the material and external article, etc. A couple of first thoughts:
1) Website and database: although I have strong skills with regard to the structure and presentation of information, I doubt I have the skills to manage all of the technical aspects of the website and database – or put another way, almost certainly I would have need for outsourced technical support. 2) I am not vegan or even vegetarian – might this be a stumbling block? I can subscribe to the charity’s objectives – those ARE it’s objectives and they are admirable – but at the end of the day I could not stand up in front of a meeting and say: Plants for a Future is THE (only) way forward. I think it’s a very important aspect of any solution towards food security for this country and beyond, but it is not the only solution. For some people it will be the way forward but for others it will not. Over the years I’ve taken an interest in human metabolism and metabolic types (at a very lay level, I hasten to add). In part this is because some years ago my body decided to stop masking a raft of allergies, and in part because there came a time when becoming vegetarian was very appealing. Well, being vegetarian was an interesting six-month exercise in ill health if ever there was one! This was the point at which I became aware, not just of the broad metabolic ‘types’, but acutely aware that each human has a very individual metabolic make-up. One man’s meat can certainly be another man’s poison. So it would be incongruent of me to pretend that one model of sustainable food production would fit all – the model for my personal need would be as depicted by Simon Fairlie’s ‘livestock permaculture’[see http://transitionculture.org/2007/12/20/can-britain-feed-itself/]. Given that we need more than one solution to this complex problem – and that the sustainable solutions ought to be able to borrow and adapt from one another, then I would hold lots in common with what I’ve just read about PFAF. Although I am a relative ‘newbie’ to active sustainability and it’s promotion, I find I can no longer ‘just sit here’ – I have to do something more (hence a desire to learn Permaculture design). And if my lack of veganism isn’t seen as a block – or a serious distraction – I’d be happy to supply suitable skills to the business of Plants for a Future. Kind regards C
080814
Hi C,
Thank you very much for getting in touch. Yes, we are still looking for people to ‘help both with administration and with the online plants database’. Richard Morris, who was running the website and database: www.pfaf.org, is helping with the transition via a discussion forum, and I could invite you onto that if you are interested. I have invited two other new people to draw up a proposal for that side of things, and put the gist of what I asked them to do on: http://www.plantsforafuture.org.uk/websitedatabaseproposal.htm . We are also investigating how to get our membership scheme up and running again, and maybe you could help with that. I am currently Company Secretary and Treasurer, and I have just got the accounts to October 2007 back from the auditor, and I need to get something organised for keeping the books, probably paying someone to do that because I really don’t have the time.
We are a bit stuck at present due to having only two trustees, due to two other people needing to move on, which means that we cannot do anything new. But before that happened, we commissioned a research project, which is ongoing, and for which a scoping study is being prepared. The TOR for that study is on: http://www.plantsforafuture.org.uk/researchTOR.htm .
If any of that takes your fancy and is something you feel you could contribute to, do send the brief CV, and please stay in touch.
Kind regards, Chris
I was just on the Permaculture website looking for a suitable design course when I spied your entry re Plants for a Future. Are you still looking for someone to help both with administration and with the online plants database? What would be entailed? Can you give me a rough idea of the time involved in each task and the duties, please? My background is in general management, publishing project management and editing (both traditional and electronic mediums). I’m slowly transitioning away from the ‘rat race’ and into a more fulfilling life style and looking for more part-time work to do from home. Happy to send a brief CV if the opening is still available, however I should say that, except as a keen vegetable gardener, I’m not particularly knowledgeable about plants for food and other uses.
Kind regards C
From a ‘radical vegan’, 14 September 2008 Chris, I just read that discussion, and yes, it is very interesting, and well thought out, and exactly the sort of thing we should be having more of.
As it happens, one of my friends who was vegan in an earlier life then got a job with defra (actually, an earlier incarnation of defra, but I don't remember which one) and says she saw how necessary it was to use animals to maintain soil condition, produce pasture with diverse species, and so on, and so reverted to being a responsible meat eater.
On honey - I generally avoid it because it avoids any "thin end of the wedge" accusations although in the past friends have cooked for me and included it (by accident, or because they think, that I would think, that golden syrup is unhealthy). So that doesn't bother me, although that wouldn't be true of meat or dairy! And I do think that we need more bees, what with (I just googled it) sudden colony collapse.
These two points outline the problems of absolutist vegan positions. And, although I don't buy chicken-based manure for my attempts at growing, I don't check (say) to see whether the person who made the stuff that I do buy was vegan. And so on.
As I've said in the past, my reason for being vegan now is partly because it suits my views on energy efficiency and partly to act as a "demonstration project". On that basis, I should be saying that PFAF shouldn't relax its principles because it should be demonstrating that growing is possible without a need for animal-based inputs. But equally, I can't suggest that a vegan diet is a practical proposition for much of the developing world and on that basis it would be madness to waste what appears to be a valuable resource coming from the animals that are kept for food. (this is very different from the industrial-scale farming that happens in, say, Texas, though). So, overall, I can see the wisdom in the suggestion to change to plant-organics.
Two other things - a lot of my working life is now involved in designing and building databases with web front ends. It looks like you have some people to do that already but I'd be pleased to offer any help/suggestions etc. And I think that I should put myself up for election as a trustee, too, if you think that's appropriate (although I don't have any qualifications, or even very much growing experience, to offer!).
Lastly, regarding the malnourished vegan baby thing - the media does find these occasionally and I've read in the past about "muesli belt" children who are similarly undernourished. In her sample of two J has got a convenient answer. I know of a few vegan children in Exeter who have been vegan from birth and they all appear lively and healthy, but again, the sample size is a bit low...
|