Leadership Journal

July 11, 2008

Exactly What Do They Want?

I’ve been in Washington a while, and I thought I’d seen everything. But the Society for Human Resource Management (SHRM) has taught me a new trick.

SHRM lobbies for the HR execs who do corporate hiring. It also opposes E-Verify. I suppose corporate hiring is easier if you can hire illegal workers, so perhaps I shouldn’t be surprised that SHRM wants to kill a program that makes it harder to hire illegal workers.

But SHRM has taken Washington arts to a new level. SHRM says it doesn’t want to kill E-Verify. SHRM says it wants to replace E-Verify with a new, better program to prevent illegal hiring. A closer look shows that the SHRM alternative is doomed to fail – and will take years to do so. So for a decade, while the SHRM alternative is failing, no one will have a good tool to actually prevent illegal hires. Which may be precisely what SHRM wants.

Why do I think that’s the name of this game? For starters, because SHRM proposes to turn immigration enforcement over to an agency that has no immigration enforcement mission. SHRM wants a verification tool that is run by the Social Security Administration (SSA), with no role for DHS, the department that funds and runs E-Verify today. Under the SHRM proposal, SSA would be responsible for making sure that everyone in the U.S. is eligible to work. But SSA and its data systems are set up to administer a vast benefit trust fund, not to enforce the immigration laws. It is hard for SSA to justify using its trust fund dollars for missions that don’t directly benefit the fund and its beneficiaries, and aggressive enforcement of the immigration laws certainly doesn’t fit that description. So any enforcement system run by Social Security would be underfunded and run by people who are not experienced in enforcing the laws against hiring illegal immigrants. Which may be exactly what SHRM wants.

In fact, SSA’s inability to adapt its database for immigration enforcement was the source of some of the problems E-Verify has been criticized for. The difficulty that naturalized citizens sometimes encountered in correcting their SSA records was finally resolved after DHS redesigned its systems to act as a backstop to SSA’s records. If E-Verify were turned over to SSA and DHS’s backstop systems were scrapped, far more Americans would have to trek to a Social Security office to prove they are entitled to work. That of course would undermine both the program’s effectiveness and its popularity. But that may be exactly what SHRM wants.

SHRM’s other solution after scrapping E-Verify is to use a Database of New Hires. That database is run by Health and Human Services (HHS) to catch workers who don’t pay child support. It doesn’t check for employment eligibility (and why would it? That’s not what it’s built to do) and it has no uniform process to resolve a mismatch. Not only would the HHS system be ineffective at employment verification, it would be far too slow. Today, E-Verify provides automatic feedback, on line, 99.5% of the time for authorized workers. Could the HHS system match this performance? No. The HHS system is the reverse of instantaneous. Here’s how it works. First, employers send in a list of the workers they’ve hired. Not to the Federal government. To fifty state agencies. Then the state agencies send the information to HHS. The Federal government never communicates with employers at all. It tells the states about any problems it finds in the records and relies on the states to contact the employer. Imagine how popular employment verification would be if no one in America could get a job until the employer had mailed in the employee’s data, and the state government mailed it to the Federal government, and the Federal government mailed a reply to the state, and the state had then contacted the employer to say everything was fine. A system like that would be repealed before the first reply was delivered. Which, come to think of it, may be exactly what SHRM wants.

SHRM also claims that their proposal combats identity theft and document fraud more effectively than E-Verify. We’re always glad to hear good ideas for reducing identity theft. But SHRM’s proposal doesn’t qualify. It relies heavily on matching Social Security Numbers and names, as does E-Verify. But it does away with E-Verify’s tool for displaying the picture that ought to be on the ID the worker presents – a proven deterrent to document fraud. SHRM’s other, vague proposal is to have private companies investigate workers and then issue special IDs. But if the private investigators are hired by SHRM’s members, what incentive do they have to find that a prospective worker is actually using a stolen identity? A skeptic might conclude that the investigators are paid to qualify workers, not to disqualify them. And the investigators won’t work for free. What’s to stop the companies from passing the cost of these investigations on to workers desperate to get hired? Such a system could turn out to be an expensive and much-abused failure, discrediting employer verification for years. Or is that too exactly what SHRM wants?

Lots of people in Washington know that the first rule of government is “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.” But the first rule of lobbying in SHRM’s book seems to be, “call it broke and fix it bad.” In fact, E-Verify isn’t broken. It’s the best available tool to verify employment eligibility.

Stewart Baker
Assistant Secretary for Policy

Labels: ,

46 Comments:

  • If this Aministration had any idea of civil liberties, the DHS would not be tracking the work histories of American citizens as part of the E-Verify program. Get a warrant if the DHS wants that information about me!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, At July 11, 2008 10:32 PM  

  • It's hilarious that DHS doesn't even try to justify E-Verify's reliance on the SSA's database anymore and is now repositioning itself as the "backstop" in this fatally flawed program. Excuse me? Is this the same DHS that failed to prepare for the influx of naturalization applications that would be filed prior to their fee hike resulting in unconscionable delays for all immigration applications last year? I had an asylum applicant who filed her application last spring and had to wait 8 months for DHS to even confirm receiving it.

    I'm sorry. Your database may be marginally better than SSA's but that's hardly something to brag about. A pair of dirty gym socks may smell better than a sewage processing plant but they both stink.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, At July 12, 2008 1:30 PM  

  • Interesting post. Thanks for sharing! I've subscribed to the RSS feeds. :)

    By Anonymous iPod Touch 2.0, At July 13, 2008 7:31 AM  

  • Does this make any sense really?

    By Anonymous vietnamese translator, At July 14, 2008 11:05 AM  

  • PLEASE FIGHT TO KEEP THE E-VERIFY SYSTEM! MOST "REAL CITIZENS" WANT IT! MOST "LEGITAMATE" COMPANIES WANT IT TOO.

    The only people who don't like E-verify are illegal aliens and illegal employers who want to break our laws.........DUH!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, At July 14, 2008 12:18 PM  

  • I would wager to say the first two posters are NOT actual citizens of the United States! That's easy to tell by their remarks.

    Enforce the law! We do not want to give away our American jobs to illegal aliens who are not supposed to be here!

    We need the e-verify system! We want the e-verify system. It also provides U.S. citizens with a positive service; it lets you know if there is anything wrong with your SS information so you can clear it up before your retirement! Before you need it and before it's too late!

    E-verify is a good public service for CITIZENS!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, At July 14, 2008 12:26 PM  

  • Many; many of our states now use the e-verify system to help enforce the laws against illegal immigration and illegal employers.

    Arizona; Oklahoma, Missouri, etc, etc......the list is growing continuously. You need to KEEP e-verify because all theses states are relying on it, AND IT IS PROVING TO WORK! That is making the citizens living in those states very happy.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, At July 14, 2008 12:42 PM  

  • I couldn't pass up the opportunity to respond to the anonymous poster above. He or she just so perfectly epitomizes the muddled thinking that makes reasonable discussion about immigration impossible that I think it could be a good learning moment. This person appears to believe that you can tell someone else's immigration status by what they post in the comment section of a blog.
    First of all, whether a person is or is not a citizen has absolutely NO bearing on their right to speak their mind about immigration or any other matter. The first amendment applies to everyone, citizen and immigrant alike. That's just how we do it in this country.
    Second, many people believe that it's always easy to tell if someone is "legal" or "illegal."
    That's just not true. US immigration law is incredibly complicated (which is another reason we need comprehensive immigration reform by the way) and people may have a right to stay in this country that they don't even know about. It's not uncommon to find people with a claim to US citizenship that they don't know about. The idea that you can just punch some buttons on a computer and tell who's legal and not is absurd. It's this kind of thinking that will end up costing innocent people their jobs.
    And by the way, ending a poorly reasoned sentence with an exclamation point doesn't make it sound any smarter.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, At July 14, 2008 11:20 PM  

  • This attack on SHRM is disturbing from an official serving the American people as Assistant Secretary. I note that just because E-Verify is the ONLY tool available does not make it the BEST tool available.

    Furthermore, I note that like SHRM's criticized proposal, E-Verify relies on the SSA -- a purpose that it was never intended for. In fact this is a MAJOR problem with E-Verfy, noted by among others the Committee to Protect Social Security and Medicare. The American people would be better served understanding why it is OK for E-Verify to use government databases in a manner not intended when sought after by DHS but not by SHRM instead of having pithy aphorisms tossed about to criticize DHS program opponents.

    By Anonymous Adam Rosen, At July 15, 2008 3:24 AM  

  • I am glad to see a DHS official defending E-Verify; that is what DHS should do. E-Verify is a wonderful program that is a great, welcome help to honest employers wanting to hire legal workers only. There are several fine explanations of the program on the DHS website. Kris W. Kobach has written a great appraisal of the program, "The Immigration Answer," published in The New York Post, 2/13/08. It's available on the internet.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, At July 17, 2008 2:23 PM  

  • DRAFT 1
    What Employers Want

    In your blog entry of July 11, “Exactly What Do They Want” your remarks impugning our organization demonstrate a lack of understanding of the political process, SHRM’s position on the employment verification issue, and SHRM’s record as a respected, independent professional association. Most important, your comments are demeaning to the Society’s more than 240,000 members.

    The fact is that SHRM and hundreds of thousands of U.S. employers across all sectors of the economy want to be able to accurately verify that the people they hire are authorized to work. For that reason, we have endorsed the New Employee Verification Act (NEVA), a bill designed to create a more accurate and efficient employment verification system for mandatory use by all U.S. employers.

    Here are some other facts about SHRM and its advocacy efforts to promote NEVA that debunk the myths in this blog.

    DHS Myth #1

    The SHRM alternative is doomed to fail – and will take years to do so. So for a decade, while the SHRM alternative is failing, no one will have a good tool to actually prevent illegal hires.

    FACT

    • First, this statement presupposes that E-Verify will be eliminated and that no verification system will be in place for 10 years. This is simply untrue. Under H.R.5515, E-Verify would continue to operate until the verification system proposed under NEVA was operational.

    • Second, E-Verify is decades away from full use, even thought it has already been in existence for over 10 years. Until recently the program floundered with virtually no takers, as less than 10,000 U.S. employers (out of over 6 million) saw the program as worthwhile – often citing inaccuracies in the system and inefficient government administration as reasons for not participating. Most of the recent growth in E-Verify participation has come from participation mandates in Arizona and other states – yet it still has only 69,000 participants, a tiny fraction of U.S. employers. DHS itself has projected E-Verify growth at 1,000 to 2,000 companies per week – which would require at least 70 years to reach full penetration.

    • Third, as the nation’s leading representative of human resource professionals – the people on the front lines of employment verification – SHRM is seeking an alternative to E-Verify that will provide employers the tools they need for effective, efficient employment verification. SHRM has endorsed NEVA because it would utilize the New Hires platform that is already used by 90 percent of U.S. employers. Rather than taking 10 years to implement, the program could begin functioning at meaningful levels long before E-Verify is ever really off the ground.


    DHS Myth #2

    SHRM wants a verification tool that is run by the Social Security Administration (SSA), with no role for DHS, the department that funds and runs E-Verify today.

    FACT:

    • SSA and DHS will continue to share responsibility as they do today. SSA would take the lead on this system, as it should since over 90% of the people run through the system will be American citizens.

    • DHS would continue to enforce participation in and compliance with the system. SSA will oversee the electronic system using DHS to verify foreign nationals while use of the SSA database will remain under SSA control with dedicated funding. NEVA would enable SSA to clean up its database, which has an estimated 4.1 percent error rate, resulting in significant accuracy problems for E-Verify.

    DHS Myth #3

    It is hard for SSA to justify using its trust fund dollars for missions that don’t directly benefit the fund and its beneficiaries, and aggressive enforcement of the immigration laws certainly doesn’t fit that description.

    FACT:

    • The DHS claim that the Social Security Trust Fund would be endangered is either a misrepresentation of NEVA or a complete misunderstanding of the bill. SSA currently spends money on E-Verify but NEVA provides advance funds to SSA prior to implementation. Under the NEVA proposal, there is absolutely no risk that Trust Funds would be used for employment verification purposes.

    DHS Myth #4

    SSA’s inability to adapt its database for immigration enforcement was the source of some of the problems E-Verify has been criticized for. The difficulty that naturalized citizens sometimes encountered in correcting their SSA records was finally resolved after DHS redesigned its systems to act as a backstop to SSA’s records. If E-Verify were turned over to SSA and DHS’s backstop systems were scrapped, far more Americans would have to trek to a Social Security office to prove they are entitled to work. That of course would undermine both the program’s effectiveness and its popularity. But that may be exactly what SHRM wants.

    FACT:
    • The problems encountered by naturalized citizens were not an SSA failing, as they had no need for the data. It was DHS that failed to upload the naturalization data into the SSA database. NEVA doesn’t scrap the DHS “backstop,” it improves it. DHS would continue to be responsible for updating the SSA records with immigration status and SSA would be required to ensure that its database can accept the updates. Contrary to the DHS model, NEVA doesn’t leave it to chance that the two agencies will work together.

    DHS Myth #5

    SHRM’s other solution after scrapping E-Verify is to use a Database of New Hires. That database is run by Health and Human Services (HHS) to catch workers who don’t pay child support… Not only would the HHS system be ineffective at employment verification, it would be far too slow.

    FACT:

    • As mentioned previously, the New Hires database is simply the portal, one already used by 90 percent of U.S. employers to access the verification system. The response system would be just as rapid as E-Verify. The challenge for DHS today is to build out an already outdated E-Verify system (at significant taxpayer expense) to enable all U.S. employers to use the system. Isn’t it better to upgrade the New Hire system used by 90 percent of employers rather than try to build the E-Verify system used by less than one percent?

    DHS Myth #6:

    SHRM also claims that their proposal combats identity theft and document fraud more effectively than E-Verify. We’re always glad to hear good ideas for reducing identity theft. But SHRM’s proposal doesn’t qualify. It relies heavily on matching Social Security Numbers and names, as does E-Verify. But it does away with E-Verify’s tool for displaying the picture that ought to be on the ID the worker presents – a proven deterrent to document fraud.

    FACT:

    • The E-Verify “Phototool” has limited value in fighting identity theft. It is only able to catch fraud where a fake photo has been substituted for a real photo on a document.

    • Phototool will not catch more sophisticated forms of identity theft, such as when an individual steals someone else’s identity to obtain a legitimate state driver’s license.

    • Phototool can currently be utilized with only a small number of workers – those who present documents with a photo that is already in the DHS database. Granted that DHS has plans to include passport photos and state departments of motor vehicle databases down the road, but this will take some time to implement.

    DHS Myth #7

    SHRM’s other, vague proposal is to have private companies investigate workers and then issue special IDs. But if the private investigators are hired by SHRM’s members, what incentive do they have to find that a prospective worker is actually using a stolen identity? A skeptic might conclude that the investigators are paid to qualify workers, not to disqualify them.

    FACT:

    • No special ID’s would be created. In fact, NEVA’s goal is to move to a completely paperless system.

    • DHS already authorizes outside vendors to assist employers in completing the form I-9 and E-Verify. NEVA would expand this to enable employers to use approved vendors to authenticate and secure through biometrics the identity of their employees. The allegation that employers would hire third parties to help them engage in fraud disrespects the hundreds of thousands of human resource professionals on the front lines of employment verification.

    • A biometric verification system is far superior to the inherently insecure current paper-based E-verify system. Biometrics or another state-of the art approach would make false documents and identity theft ineffective so that employers can be assured of a legal workforce.

    • Use of biometrics in employment verification is supported by 79% of Americans.

    • What’s more, NEVA allows individuals to check their own SSA records and to lock their SSN for employment verification purposes, preventing others from using their SSN to gain employment.

    By Anonymous Mike Aitken, SHRM, At July 18, 2008 12:05 PM  

  • It's a sad day when a DHS official has to resort to misinformation and self-interest to defend the unworkable beauracracy created by a broken system and a power-hungry agency.

    An additional note to one of the other anonymous posters: If your rhetoric hinges on the phrase "duh," you probably need to re-think your argument. Knee-jerk, love-my-country reactions are not the same as informed, well-reasoned decisions. Immigration is clearly an issue to contend with in our nation, but the way to do so isn't to dig trenches and defend our positions; the way through is to engage with each other with intelligence, respect, and mutual committment to the highest common good.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, At July 18, 2008 1:07 PM  

  • I have been using e-verify for the past 7 years as part of a company mandate and find the system to have a 95% accuracy rate. Most of the time a mismatch occurs due to marriage or divorce and the applicant did not have a ss card that matched the name on their application documents. The other times, it was because they were not authorized to work in the United States. A system can always be improved for efficiency however I do not see a need to move to a new system. I am a HR professional but do not support SHRM on this initiative. However, I do take offense with the DHS stating that SHRM and its membership would like to hire unauthorized workers because it is calling for a replacement to the e-verify system. As a professional organization,we should have the ability to debate and disagree without defamation to our character. The organization has presented a compelling case for improving the verification system regardless of whether it remains under the ownership of DHS or moves to SSA.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, At July 18, 2008 1:25 PM  

  • As an HR professional, I currently use the e-verify system. I find it quick and easy to use and have discovered several new hires who were not work eligible. I am a big supporter of the system and disagree with SHRM. I have let my SHRM membership lapse and will not be a member again any time soon. They do not speak for all HR professionals, but they certainly can give us all a bad name by not supporting a system that has been proven effective and easy to use.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, At July 18, 2008 1:27 PM  

  • As a new member of SHRM I have would like to comment on what I see. First of all I read the letter from Homeland Security as informational, not as demeaning but as challenging. I believe there are two totally different approaches to what might be the same goal. As is other issues, this has become political in nature with one side calling the other side names. What say we try to work together to fix the problem. I do not believe that illegal immigrants have the rights that we as legal immigrants have. I believe that DHS is trying to defend E-Verify and must believe in the system they are presently using. The only demeaning comments I see here seem to be from the elite who cannot think outside their own box. We must first understand to be understood.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, At July 18, 2008 1:37 PM  

  • The portrayal of NEVA and SHRM's intent is inaccurate and insulting. To assume that SHRM seeks to assist US employers in hiring illegal aliens is completely contrary to the efforts of SHRM devoted to training HR professionals to assure their employers conform with the law. How is it that a senior government official can use a government web site supported by tax dollars to libel a respected professional association with impunity? That entry should be retracted and the author resign. Let him create his own blog.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, At July 18, 2008 1:37 PM  

  • As one of the 240,000 professionals represented by SHRM, I am completely offended by the disrespect shown in Secretary Baker's blog.

    "I suppose corporate hiring is easier if you can hire illegal workers, so perhaps I shouldn’t be surprised that SHRM wants to kill a program that makes it harder to hire illegal workers.”

    SHRM represents me - a solo HR Generalist in a small business of 75 union and non-union employees. And I, along with the other 5.7 million small businesses with employees (02 Census data), care very much about immigration and hiring practices.

    We are the front lines. We use the paper I-9 forms and hope that someone hasn't shown us a really good fake document because we're responsible even though there is no training to ID fake documents.

    We use the New Hires system because as much as we're concerned about illegal hires, we're also concerned about kids and families and helping our employees meet their obligations.

    We don't work in massive HR departments. We juggle multiple needs and priorities every day and we need systems that are quick, efficient and do not return false or delayed results.

    Hiring illegal workers is not easier - it's bad for business. SHRM members and small business HR practitioners are business partners - advocates for strategic growth in our companies. Our companies grow when we hire and support the best employees.

    Checking work eligibility is one of many important tasks we do to ensure we are making the right hiring decision. We want to use a system that is accurate, reliable and timely.

    The NEVA system is good for businesses. Perhaps Mr. Baker, if your department learned to play better with other government silos, you would not be so threatened by a new proposal whose sole intent is to ensure legal hiring.

    By Anonymous Dana M., Washington State, At July 18, 2008 1:47 PM  

  • Obviously many of the people giving their opinions are not in the HR profession. We need comprehensive immigration legislation. I’m tired of hearing “immigrants are taking jobs away” – from who? We advertise, and advertise – good paying jobs by the way, and guess what – we don’t have many Americans apply – they don’t want to do the job – again, not because it doesn’t pay good, but because they don’t want to work in certain industries - there are jobs they just don't want to do. Our average employees make 35-40 per year – we pay overtime, have great benefits, and still the only people who come and apply at our company are immigrants. We don’t have enough people. We had to cut production because DHS and Congress are so detached from the realities of immigration. Some day we will be forced to take our business elsewhere because we don’t have enough people to do the job. By the way, I am a US Citizen before someone accuses me of something I am not, like Anti-American.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, At July 18, 2008 1:54 PM  

  • Thank you for finally exposing some of what the SHRM is to corporate CEO's!

    There is likely to be many more issues under this rock.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, At July 18, 2008 2:01 PM  

  • Perhaps Mr. Baker has never met someone who works in the Human Resources profession. We are the ones that protect the company's assets, and employee's rights. If anyone is busted with illegal employees, they get fined. Now how does that protect any company's assets?

    We have been responsible for verifying a person's "legal right to work in the United States" way before any kind of electronic system came about. Were we cheating all these years? Of course not. We are just looking for a system that can be trusted to be right, and that doesn't cause us extra work, as there is no such thing as an HR Manager or above who just processes new hires.

    Ignorance has been at the base of most prejudice. Mr. Baker, your ignorance is highly offensive to the professional organization you have blindly swung at. Shame on you.

    By Anonymous Julie Via, SPHR, At July 18, 2008 2:03 PM  

  • I am utterly disturbed by Stewart Baker’s statement. He has relied on very irresponsible, bully-like tactics to denounce what he thinks is the position of SHRM and thousand of members on the identity verification issue.
    As an HR professional and as a responsible citizen following the immigration reform very closely I cannot help but wonder what kind of response Baker wants to incite from us. Well, we have responded and it is insulting to us for you to say (not just assume!) that we want rules bended our way so we can go ahead and hired illegal workers.
    As an HR professional that happens also to be Latina, I have encountered numerous job applicants that simply thought that I would favor then and perhaps would disregard the law during the hiring process. HUGE mistake! While this issue hits home very close, I can proudly say that I have done my job and complied with the law in an unwavering and uncompromising manner. I know that this characterizes the professional demeanor of many if not all of my SHRM colleagues and we raise our voices to deplore this unjust accusation. You are dealing with highly regarded professionals Mr. Baker; perhaps you should be surrounded by more of these!

    By Anonymous Zee, At July 18, 2008 2:07 PM  

  • I am sick to death of the prevailing climate in our government, in which disagreement is considered unpatriotic, subversive, or worse. Reasonable people can disagree about methods without branding those with other ideas as scofflaws. It is outrageous that our tax dollars are used to promote name-calling.

    By Blogger Martha, At July 18, 2008 2:12 PM  

  • Could it be that DHS spent a fair amount of time and money developing a system that fundamentally doesn't address the needs of its users? Why is e-Verify voluntary? Is it because it is a project that never made it past the pilot phase? I have not yet seen the information for why e-Verify is not successful and that should be crystal clear before making a decision to replace it, particularly since the premise of these two systems appears to be the same (use SSA records supported by DHS immigration records to validate who a person actually is and whether they are authorized to work in the US).

    The feature set between the solutions appears to be the primary difference(i.e. biometrics vs. photo verification, response time and uptime) and I'm certainly not convinced that one is better than the other. It sounds like we'd be better off spending money to address the SSA/DHS data quality issues first, then make the system mandatory. Feature set alone doesn't seem to make the case for the complexity of this solution alone.

    Who is putting together the business case (which is an artifact that is very common in the private sector, but apparently unheard of in government) for selecting a new solution? It should call out the required features (gathered by talking to the actual users) and the minimum success criteria. Guys, this stuff isn't brain surgery. THEN share it and start having some productive dialog...Personal attacks and accusations of unethical behavior against a party simply because they have dissenting views is unprofessional. Business school 101

    That the DHS chose to engage in that behavior undermines their credibility in my book.

    By Anonymous Kristin Lundin, SPHR, At July 18, 2008 2:19 PM  

  • According to the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), no federal law prohibits an employer from hiring a candidate without a Social Security Number (SSN), assuming the required I-9 documentation has been provided. Further, the new form I-9 only requires an employee to provide a SSN on a voluntary basis. Similarly, there is no federal law which prohibits the making of a payment to a person based solely on the fact that the person does not have an SSN."

    According to the Social Security Administrtion, employers are to advise workers that they are required to apply for a Social Security number and card.

    Shouldn't a DHS system that is based on an employee's SSN first and foremost work on making it Federal Law to require an SSN for employment??

    While DHS touts E-Verify, it issues a new I-9 form that says providing an SSN is voluntary??

    "Providing the Social Security number is voluntary, except for employees hired by employers participating in the USCIS Electronic Employment Eligibility Verification Program (E-Verify)."

    However, the E-Verify MOU section 5 states "Note that employees retain the right to present any List A, or List B and List C, documentation to complete the Form I-9."

    All of the above government agency stupidity is the reason SHRM even exists!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, At July 18, 2008 2:22 PM  

  • Mr. Baker, I hope you were just having a bad day when you wrote this; assuming the worst about people or organizations doesn't seem to solve the problem.

    As an HR person for 22 years, what do I want? First, I'd rather not be an immigration officer. That is the job of your agency. However, since that ship sailed long ago, then what I want is to not be personally liable if I'm fooled by a high quality fake ID. Shifting the work to me and my organization (through an unfunded mandate, I must add) was bad enough. Shifting the liability to me was wrong.

    No organization I have worked for has wanted to hire illegal aliens. Please don't assume the worst about the vast majority of employers.

    Solve the problem. That's what I want my tax dollars spent on, not name-calling. After all, this is the DHS LEADERSHIP webpage.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, At July 18, 2008 2:35 PM  

  • By reading Asst. Secretary Baker's comments, I can assume he is a typical bureaucrat who is protecting territory by attempting to control another function of our nation's security. It's regrettable DHS has been allowed to increase its scope as rapidly as it has through crisis and fear rather than informed legislation.

    This seems like a typical response of one person wanting it done "his way with his people," when SHRM has proposed a more practical system.

    The goal of this system should be to simply ensure that all workers are documented and eligible to work in the United States, something the former system of paper I-9s attempted but never succeeded in. If Baker spent his energy perfecting his agency's system of verification instead of criticizing those who propose alternative solutions, he would have much more support.

    By Anonymous Jeremy D. Minneapolis, MN, At July 18, 2008 3:04 PM  

  • Maybe if the DHS spent more time doing their job instead of blogging there wouldn't be an illegals to hire.

    By Anonymous Betty Feltersnatch, At July 18, 2008 3:47 PM  

  • I am not a person who is easily offended but Mr. Bakers accusations that myself and any of my fellow SHRM members or human resources professionals would desire to hire illegal workers or would knowingly and voluntarily make an effort to do so is highly offensive to me.

    I have been using the voluntary E-Verify program and have not experienced problems with it myself, however, what happens on November 30, when the E-Verify program is set to expire? The last I heard was that funding to expand the program had been denied.

    I applaud SHRM for supporting legislation that may offer human resources another alternative and maybe even a better system than E-verify.

    By Anonymous Kaye, MD, At July 18, 2008 4:23 PM  

  • What I find particularly bothersome is that journals and blogs of this type aren't posted to by the like or Mr. Baker without first being vetted and approved. Mr. Baker may be the lightning rod, but this sentiment must be that of DHS superiors to be allowed to be posted.

    As a volunteer member of a CERT Team, as well as an HR professional for close to 30 years, this is exactly the kind of attitude that has spoiled relationships with other law enforcement and public agencies and the DHS. They consider themselves above us, and even above our laws, as certainly is evidenced here and in Northern Minnesota.

    Note also that all comments here are moderated by the DHS . . .

    By Anonymous CT in Minnesota, At July 18, 2008 4:36 PM  

  • I have been a Human Resources professional for over 17 years, and I am extremely offended by the INSINUATIONS made by an employee of MY government. Don't these comments border on Defamation of Character?

    Our profession has worked very hard, and continues to do so, to build respect and create a partnership with the leaders of our organizations. We have helped to ensure compliance with our country's laws and to promote ethical behavior from all of our organizations' employees.

    To imply that HR professionals and/or the organization we are very proud to be a part of, would engage in such behavior, is to stoop to a level which is unacceptable from a government official.

    I am, once again, deeply disappointed in my government.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, At July 18, 2008 4:51 PM  

  • What I found most disturbing was the repeated inference that SHRM and thereby its membership are HR professionals who would therefore be desirous of hiring illegal workers. In truth, HR professionals as a group do not seek to undermine the laws of this country and do not view supposedly cheap labor of illegal aliens as a positive. In fact, hiring someone who turns out to be illegal only means time and money lost in training an individual you will not be keeping on the payroll.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, At July 18, 2008 5:13 PM  

  • I find it interesting that Mr. Baker repeatedly writes, "...that may be what SHRM wants." His entire blog post is based on an assumption of which he knows nothing about. (Including the two attempts SHRM made to partner on a new, more effective E-Verify system with DHS.) Obviously a trusted organization of more than 240k HR professionals would not condone the hiring of illegal immigrants. I suggest that Mr. Baker spend more time gathering his facts rather than slinging accusations and offending an entire organization dedicated to (among other things) developing and implementing sound hiring practices.

    By Anonymous Shannon Lathrop, PHR, At July 18, 2008 5:21 PM  

  • Dear Mr. Baker,

    For over a year SHRM has sought a meeting to communicate with DHS regarding how best to approach improving the employment verification system. Their requests have fallen on deaf ears. This has led me and perhaps many within SHRM to conclude that DHS was not open to process improvement feedback.

    It is only now after the die has been cast that DHS chooses to enter a dialog (albeit disfunctionally) with SHRM on this topic. You are an intelligent man capable of better than poisoning the well with regard to SHRMs motives. Please take the opportunity to reach out and understand the front-line issues surrounding e-Verify that HR practitioners and SHRM have been voicing.

    Most HR professionals are civic-minded, good citizens who are NOT trying to find ways to "get around" legal compliance. To assume that we are less than this is not helpful.

    From an ethical perspective, we must ask what harm e-Verify brings upon legal US workers as it currently exists. We must also ask how this concept might be modified in practice to reduce these harms.

    Although it is true that many of us in the HR community are concerned with the administrative demands of a less than optimal system, we are more concerned with creating an effective long term solution that actually does what it sets out to do without punishing those legal workers who are most vulnerable.

    Benjamin Franklin reminded the bureaucrats of his age that those who would give up essential liberties to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither. A popular paraphrase adds that they will ultimately lose both.

    I do not envy Mr. Baker's position. I have lived in DC just long enough to know that it's impossible to please even most of the people. This is a critical long term issue that needs to be addressed. It is possible that the ship has sailed for e-Verify as you hoped it might become. That does not mean that you cannot participate productively in other efforts to create an even better long term solution.

    Please, apologize to SHRM before your superiors have to do it for you. Reach out and cooperate. Build the bridges necessary to tap the vast energy and knowledge of nearly a quarter million HR professionals who associate with the Society for Human Resource Management.

    By Anonymous Professor Marty Val Hill, SPHR, At July 19, 2008 3:29 AM  

  • Let's see -- using a flawed database to preclude citizens from getting jobs = doing illegal hiring? Where's the logic?

    Perhaps, DHS doesn't realize that people are on the no fly list in error; millions of eligible voters were denied the vote due to erroneous government databases; dead people get Social Security benefits -- all due to flawed databases.

    Mr. Secretary -- all SHRM and it's members want is to work with a system that is correct, accurate and user friendly.

    Hmmm...would you accept any less from your bank, credit card company, food supplier -- or any other agency/company that has your health (financial and physical) in your hands?

    How dare you throw insults while ignoring the message of data integrity?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, At July 19, 2008 11:12 AM  

  • Why is a disagreement between entities who are both "trying to get it right" ending up like this? Is this another symptom that if you don't agree with this administration, you must be anti-American? Divisionary tactics like this caused revolutions. Please reference Orwell's "1984", Mr. Secretary -- your comments are "double plus ungood".

    By Anonymous Anonymous, At July 19, 2008 11:20 AM  

  • As an experienced HR professional and a long time member and volunteer leader of SHRM, I find Mr. Baker's comments offensive and demeaning. To broadly claim that an entire professional organization is engaging in unethical or illegal acts is no better than saying all appointed bureaucrats are political hacks.

    In my career, I have strictly followed the laws and rules regarding employment eligibility. I have cooperated on several occasions with INS on audits whenever asked.

    It is interesting that in the instructions for the comment section the phrase "Comments that make unsupported accusations will also not be posted" is used. Seems like it doesn't apply to the author of this blog.

    Mr. Baker owes at the very least a published apology to SHRM and the entire HR profession. I hope Secretary Chertoff looks long and hard at Asst. Secretary Baker's writings and the responses that follow.

    By Anonymous John Jorgensen SPHR, At July 19, 2008 12:46 PM  

  • I'm ashamed that our tax dollars pay for Mr. Baker's time if he's wasting it on catty, unprofessional public blogging. Totally unprofessional!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, At July 20, 2008 2:56 PM  

  • I am not going to comment on whether SHRM's suggested methods will work or not. I dont know enough to comment.

    However, as a SHRM member, I really take offense that SHRM's motives are to aid in hiring illegals.

    Thats downright insulting not only to SHRM but to all its members who day in and day out do their best to comply with the inconsistent and often vague laws out there that govern the HR field.

    How dare you decide what SHRM's motives are? How dare you tell me that I want to hire illegal workers. I have been part of the e-verify program since 2005. If I wanted to hire illegals, I certainly wouldnt have become part of a voluntary program to ensure that my employees were illegal.

    SHRM's mission has and continues to be making Human Resources a professional organization and just becasue they dont support your program you decide it must be becasue they want to hire illegals.
    I hope you dont jump to such conclusions in everything you do professionally.

    If SHRM is tied with large organizations and corporations, are they the ones most often being caught with illegals? The main violators often seem to be small firms with small budgets who dont even have an HR person.

    Frankly, I have no respect for you after this. Disagree but name calling and accusations are just unacceptable from a represntative of our goverment.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, At July 21, 2008 10:45 AM  

  • I am a member of SHRM and SPHR certified. I support E-Verify and am terribly troubled that my professional organization is in opposition. They are on the wrong side of this issue. If the folks at SHRM are reading this, and I hope they are, I say you need to get with the program and help all of us do the right thing by hiring ONLY legal workers.

    By Blogger Terri, At July 22, 2008 4:07 PM  

  • Of course SHRM sent an indignant e-mail to its 250,000 members (I am one) and got 30 or so comments in response. I suspect that both sides are "spinning" the information to make themselves look good. The bottom line is that we need immigration policies that are enforced, and need to deport anyone who is in the U.S. illegally, without giving them a job, medical care, or any other social services! And without giving their children citizenship, just because they happened to sneak into the U.S. without being caught! Send them home and let them apply to come here legally!!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, At July 22, 2008 6:36 PM  

  • I agree that the name calling is unnecessary from a government official.

    By Anonymous Costume Jewelry, At July 23, 2008 2:33 AM  

  • It saddens me to read the DHS letter from Assistant Secretary Baker. I find the purported "motives" listed by the Assistant Secretary to be highly unprofessional.

    There seems to be a common theme from this administration of attacking those that disagree with it, instead of forming a partnership with those that must deal with the issue on a daily basis.

    It should be an automatic consideration of any agency that is considering a major program such as this, to contact an a professional association (particularly one with 240,000 members) that is greatly affected by their program.

    We use a vendor for background checks that uses e-verify. We find it to be accurate 95% of the time, but for us that means we have to deal with 10 questionable hires a year. Multiply that by 50,000 work place our size or more, I would consider that a system that needs improvement.

    I would encourage DHS to contact and respond to SHRM. We have the same goal, why not use a process that meets the needs of all.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, At July 23, 2008 11:51 AM  

  • I am amazed that DHS would not want to communicate with SHRM to discuss the underlying issues in order to come to an agreement on which system would benefit both everyone. Shame on you Mr. Baker for your unprofessionalism. I am disappointed at the comments on here and hope that YOU read all of them completely to gain an understanding from both sides.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, At July 23, 2008 6:58 PM  

  • As the friend of a partner in an immigration law practice, I regularly hear stories of clients (individuals and corporations) who are either clearly lying to their attorneys, or basically asking them to look the other way. There are innumerable situations where compliance with the existing immigration laws are considered "too much trouble" and the people who are supposed to be complying with them ask questions like "why can't we just hire who we want to." This goes on ALL THE TIME. And the immigration bar regularly complains about the hardship these compliance issues place on the poor immigrants. Many of the folks here who identify themselves as HR professionals and members of SHRM may very well be good people and sincere administrators, but the fact remains that there is little to no interest in compliance with the laws in place. The immigration bar is even worse in this regard. The big immigration firms are just like diploma mills that churn out applications without regard to their accuracy or the validity of their clients claims. Rather than proposing something altogether new, SHRM should be making suggestions to fix the problems it perceives with E-Verify. It is clear that the strategy to propose something new and throw the other tool out is aimed at causing disarray in the system and continuing the status-quo of immigrant "don't ask-don't tell".

    By Anonymous Anonymous, At July 29, 2008 2:09 PM  

  • I am so fed up with the legislators of this country. They are so quick to institute new laws to get reelected but they don't pay any attention to how the laws will be implemented or enforced.

    I have been in the business world for over 25 years and see this idiocy all the time. There is a system already in place that reports new employees to the states for the purpose of finding deadbeat dads. The Human Resource professionals want to use this existing system to verify status of illegal workers.

    I am sick of people violating the laws of the U.S. and being given rights that should b exclusive to citizens of this country. My tax dollars that could be used to educate my children are being diverted to pay for programs that benefit people who have no right to be here.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, At July 30, 2008 12:07 PM  

  • Although keeping the E-Verify system is the most desirable
    choice to US citizens.

    Illegal immigration and illegal employing practices will
    continue to prevail.

    The bottom line is the only way to beat is to truly become
    "exactly what employers want"

    http://www.yourresumeassistant.com/

    By Anonymous Anonymous, At October 9, 2008 1:39 AM  

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