Transcript from November 8, 2007
Ask EPA is an online interactive forum where you can discuss a wide range of environmental and human health issues with EPA's senior officials.
Today's Session
Join Deputy Administrator Marcus Peacock to discuss how EPA measures the agency's performance and finds new ways to deliver environmental results, and his new blog "Flow of the River."
Marcus Peacock: Welcome, and thank you for joining me for the second session of “Ask EPA.” As you would likely expect, I really am energized by exchanging information in this forum. I have been very pleased with the reception my blog has received - looking forward to your thoughts on that - and so I know that great things can be born of the electronic environment.
As stated, today’s discussion will focus on how EPA measures the agency's performance and finds new ways to deliver environmental results, and my new blog "Flow of the River."
Why don’t we get started – let’s get to your questions.
From: Leo Byford
In: Tulsa, OK
Question: I DID NOT GET ANY ANSWERS TO MY QUESTIONS
LAST TIME IS THERE A REASON THAT I SHOULD ASK QUESTIONS THIS TIME?
Marcus Peacock: Yup, there is. The Administrator got over 120 questions last time. He answered a lot of them (23 I think) but there was no way he was going to get to them all. I won't get through all the ones I'm getting either, although I'd like to beat the number the Administrator answered (and keep up the quality of the answers). At any rate, it is testing my 30 wpm typing skills.
Regardless, we are going to continue to do these "Ask EPA" sessions given their popularity. There are also other ways to contact the agency and ask questions. Let me immodestly point out, for instance, that I have a blog where you can post comments and questions. That may be another avenue you may want to consider. It's called "The Flow of the River" and you can link to it off of the main EPA web page or just go to http://flowoftheriver.epa.gov/
From: Mike
In: Dallas, TX
Question: Thanks for having this discussion. Are you
concerned that increasing the focus on metrics may actually impair performance?
Some kinds of measurements are useful, but whenever there is a quantitative
target for measuring performance, actions are inevitably skewed toward
meeting those quantitative measures. Plus, the measurement and related
documentation consume time that could otherwise be used on the actual
work of the agency. How do you address these issues in your efforts to
improve the way EPA measures its performance?
Marcus Peacock:I am concerned about relying too much
on quantitative measures. There has to be a balance. In particular, when
I meet with managers here, we
keep in mind that no measure is perfect, they are usually a proxy for something
else we can't easily measure. So what are we really trying to get at? What
is the result we are trying to achieve, and, regardless of what we are
measuring, do we think we are getting the result? It's good to also ask
are we seeing perverse effects from our measurement system? Because we
measure 'Superfund site cleanups completed' are people working on easier
lower risk sites they can clean up quickly rather than focusing on higher
risk sites that may take longer to complete, but may make more sense to
work on from a health protection standpoint?
Finally we have to constantly question the value of the administrative costs of measurement systems. It's a question of value. Is it worth the time and effort to get the information? If we aren't using measurement to improve what we are doing, if we are just using measures to monitor and track things, then we should really question if it is worth the time to collect the information.
Thanks for the question.
From: Scott
In: New Orleans, LA
Question: Greetings. My name is Scott, and I'm a grad
student of Environmental Science in the Nekton Lab at the University
of New Orleans and president of the local chapter of the Society for
Conservation Biology.
I was curious to hear your response to the National Academy of Sciences' recent statement that EPA has failed to lead the way to water quality standards for the Mississippi river.
I was wondering what actions EPA is planning to take, in particular towards the monitoring and reduction of the nitrogen and phosphorus loads linked to the growing dead zone in the northern Gulf of Mexico.
When can those of us down in the mouth expect EPA to move on this issue?
Marcus Peacock: I meet with all the managers in the Mississippi watershed once every three months to discuss what we are doing to reduce the hypoxia problem we have in the Gulf. It is a huge problem that is going to take years to tackle. But I think we are going in the right direction. Currently we track four measures and you can find some of them by looking at the "Water Quality" measures on pages 2 and 3 of our most recent Quarterly Management Report (http://www.epa.gov/ocfo/qmr/pdfs/fy07_q3_qmr.pdf)
From: Jennifer Strickland
In: Enid, OK
Question: When will the EPA begin recognizing antimicrobial
disinfectants as "green" or "less-toxic". There are
some great chemistries out there that are better for the environmant
than standard technologies but there is no legal way to promote them.
Marcus Peacock:EPA does, in fact, have a number of programs to promote 'green' chemicals including the "Design for the Environment" program. You can find out more about this program at http://www.epa.gov/dfe. We also track, for instance, the amount of 'greener' chemicals being used on cropland on a quarterly basis.
From: Scott
In: Washington, DC
Question: We all know that positive incentives can enhance
performance in the workplace. Usually these come in the form of recognition
awards and monetary benefits. However, negative incentives - or more
appropriately developmental improvements - also come into play. Obviously
the private sector has keyed into this with performance evaluations:
do well you get a bonus, mess up or don't improve and you get fired.
My question is: with the civil protection that federal employees possess where essentially they can only get fired if they do something criminal, how is it you can accurately measure employee performance in the federal workplace?
Marcus Peacock: There is an extensive performance-based personnel system in the federal government. For instance, employees are rated every year on their performance and I can tell you from personal experience they are very sensitive to this rating. I recently noted that EPA senior managers tend to be rated under a tougher standard than other federal agencies. For more information on that see my blog entry " Anything I Can Do, I Can Do Better" at http://flowoftheriver.epa.gov/my_weblog/2007/10/anything-i-can-.html
From: Dan
In: Vienna, VA
Question: As I understand it, the EPA is one of the
least funded agencies in the government. However, media outlets are putting
more and more focus on environmental issues ranging from climate change,
to alternative fuel sources, to shrinking farm lands. How is the EPA
meeting the public's increased demand for environmental results while
the EPA's budget is only a fraction of what is delegated to other agencies?
Marcus Peacock: I guess I've got a few things to say about this.
First, I don't think our budget is that small. Over the past ten years it has stayed between $7.5 and $8.5 billion. That's million with a 'b.' That may be small compared to someone like the Department of Health and Human Services, but it is also roughly equal to the GDP of a small country.
Second, we are a regulatory agency so most of our results do not come through money we directly spend but, rather action we take that make (or cajole) other people to put resources toward environmental protection. Our budget pales in comparison to the costs our regulations impose. I would also point out those costs pale in comparison to the benefits of those regulations.
Finally, EPA is just one piece of a big pie working toward protecting our environment. The Departments of the Interior, Energy and Commerce are just some of the other Agencies that we collaborate with in many ways to protect the environment. For instance, all together, since 2001 the Bush Administration has invested over $29 billion to climate change science, technology and tax incentive programs- far more than any other country in the world.
With regards to results you may want to see how we are performing against our long-term and short-term targets by going to http://www.epa.gov/performance/ and viewing the reports offered there. Overall, I'd say we're doing pretty darn fine.
From: Christopher V.
In: Sarasota, FL
Question: It appears that the EPA has evolved with science
through research and education programs, and with good accountability,
communication and dissemination of information. Is there a public or
private entity charged with or accepting rulemaking (and enforcement)
duties, responsibilities, and jurisdiction concerning the environment,
health and public welfare involved with any aspects of current, planned
or foreseeable "space" ventures? Then also, what constitutes "public" in
a defined space environment?
Marcus Peacock: Far out. I am not aware of anything we are doing to address issues in space.
From: Norris
In: Washington, DC
Question: Has EPA calculated its carbon dioxide footprint?
If EPA were to purchase offsets for this footprint, have you estimated
how much that would cost using the current voluntary price of carbon
dioxide offsets?
Marcus Peacock: We haven't calculated our footprint. That may be a good idea but I think there are a couple reasons we haven't done that yet. First, we are very focused on reducing our energy use in the first place. We track this on a quarterly basis and I'm happy to say we are reducing energy use at a pace of about 5% a year. Second, we purchase renewable energy, or "green power," equivalent to 100% of the power we use.
As for the second question, since we don't have the footprint, I don't know how much it would cost.
I would encourage everyone to look at their own carbon footprint and reduce it. I've done that and it's pretty easy. For more see my blog entry " Cool It" at http://flowoftheriver.epa.gov/my_weblog/2007/08/cool-it.html
From: Chris
In: Rockville, MD
Question: I understand that the US has very large coal
reserves which could be used to offset our dependence on foreign oil.
However, burning coal for energy has been reported as very harmful to
the environment. Does the EPA currently research and/or support environmentally
friendly methods for using our vast coal reserves in order to reduce
our dependence on foreign energy supplies?
Marcus Peacock:Chris you are correct that the US has very large coal reserves and in many cases, that coal can be used to help offset our dependence on foreign oil. Coal comes with challenges but the Bush Administration is committed to working to develop clean coal technologies that can eliminate any harmful effects of coal. We've made progress on this already.
In fact Department of Energy has been successful in developing what is known as "FutureGen" http://www.fossil.energy.gov/programs/powersystems/futuregen/ . This is a project announced by President Bush that would create the first zero emission coal based power plant.
From: Tony
In: Alexandria, VA
Question: Do you assess performance on a program-by-program
basis, or do you rate each EPA organization ( e.g. office or region)
as a whole? Or both?
Marcus Peacock: Both.
From: Paul
In: MD
Question: There has been recent criticism about the
level of criminal enforcement by the EPA. But it is my understanding
that several years ago, EPA did a management review of the criminal enforcement
office that revealed dissatisfaction with using traditional enforcement
measures, namely, number of investigations, referrals, convictions, fines,
etc. Instead of "bean counting", the report said the focus
should be a better measurement of results in environmental protection,
reduced pollution, etc. Has the EPA developed this kind of meaningful
measurement, and if so, is this information available to the public?
In that vein, shouldn't EPA be using non-criminal remedies more often
to get quicker cleanup and compliance?
Marcus Peacock: You're right. I think we used to 'bean count' more in the enforcement office. They've improved on that by measuring things that are much closer to environmental outcomes such as the reduction in the number of pounds of pollution due to their actions and increased resources people are putting into pollution control technology. We still measure some of the beans, but we recognize them for what they are and don't try and read too much in to them. For instance, we have looked at the number of civil referrals from a workload standpoint.
This is a good example of how good measures reduce the need to micromanage an office. In this case, the goal is to reduce pollution and that is what we are measuring. Depending on circumstances the office will use their expertise to decide what the right balance between tough cop and compliance assistance is in each situation in order to maximize pollution reduction.
You should know this is not an uncontroversial area and some people like counting the 'beans' a lot and think that is important. I have addressed this in my blog "The Flow of the River" in an entry called "Yesterday's News" on October 1, 2007 if you want more information (http://flowoftheriver.epa.gov/my_weblog/2007/10/yesterdays-news.html ). I have also addressed some of the workload issues the 'beans' revealed in an entry on July 31, 2007.
You can look at the most recent (2006) results for yourself at http://www.epa.gov/compliance/data/results/annual/index.html . We also track some measures quarterly and you can find those on page 7 of our Quarterly Management Report at http://www.epa.gov/ocfo/qmr/pdfs/fy07_q3_qmr.pdf
From: Paul
In: Arlington, VA
Question: California just filed a lawsuit against the
EPA in the DC District Court, stating that the EPA was simply "sitting
on its hands." This request from California was submitted nearly
2 years ago in December 2005. Only after the Supreme Court ruled that
EPA had the right to regulate greenhouse gases as a pollutant. As far
as I understand it, the EPA's mission is to protect human health and
environment. So my question is why did take an unreasonably long amount
of time and only after an order by the Supreme Court to compel the Administrator
to state that "he will have an answer by the end of the year"?
What steps are being taken by EPA to regulate greenhouse gases as a pollutants?
Marcus Peacock: Administrator Johnson responded to a similar question from Leetie in his Ask EPA session last week. Please see the transcript at http://www.epa.gov/askepa/transcripts/askepa110107.html
From: Patrick
In: Washington
Question: I have heard that there is a large number
of EPA employees who are eligible to retire in the next 5 years. What
steps are the EPA taking to prevent a "brain drain"?
Marcus Peacock: Good question. Almost 50% of our senior managers are eligible for retirement already. The Administrator has identified strengthening of the workforce as one of his four main priorities. We have put in place a Human Capital Plan that includes identifying what skills and knowledge the Agency will need in the future and how we will then make sure we fill these gaps. That said, the market for many skills EPA needs, particularly technical skills, is very competitive. We are working on doing a better job of reaching out to schools and other sources of technical expertise.
From: Autumn
In: Manhattan, KS
Question: How do you judge if delivery of new information
to the public is successful? Also, what standards do you measure the
agency's performance against? -What/who are the most common challenges
you face in trying to depart information to the public?
Marcus Peacock: I once had a roommate from Manhattan, KS. Nice town, and a good question.
In some cases we don't measure this, as much as we would like to. It's just too hard to figure out. For instance, we handed out millions of handbills to people in the wake of hurricane Katrina informing them of hazards they may face. We had no way of figuring out how effective those handbills were although we believe they were critical in informing people who otherwise had little or no ability to be reached by internet, TV or even radio.
In other places we do attempt to measure how effective we are. For instance, we have a huge compliance assistance initiative with farmers to educate them on how to change their practices to avoid adverse effects on water and air quality. We have a program that follows up with farmers to see, if, in fact, they change their behavior – whether they not only heard but change what the do.
So I guess I'd say it's a mixed bag. But if we can get data on what the results of providing information is, we will try and do that. If it is impractical, we don't let that stop us from providing the information. Indeed, I'd say our goal is to get more information to more people more quickly. I know, for instance, EPA's Chief Information Officer, Molly O'Neill, is very focused on enhancing access to environmental information- both by the public and within EPA-and she is holding a national meeting next week in St. Louis to focus on how information can be accessed for a real-world need, the protection of the Puget Sound in the upper northwest part of this country. Based on the results of that challenge, Molly will be refining an Access Strategy for EPA to enhance access to environmental information.
To answer the last question you have, the most common challenges we face in trying to give information to the public is the information itself. We deal with very complex issues which too many people see as black and white, or don't necessarily have the technical background to understand quickly. EPA often must work with other experts to find the answers to environmental problems and that takes time. Also, complex environmental topics often need to be communicated in a clear, useful way for the public, and we're always trying to make it easier for the public to find information to ensure access to the information they need.
From: N.
In: Washington, DC
Question: Performance evaluation and reporting is important,
but when there are multiple overlapping processes, with similar yet different
measures, the result is an undue burden for staff working on providing
this information and less valuable information for the public. What are
you doing to stream-line the different reporting processes?
Marcus Peacock: This is a problem we have had for some time, but we're fixing it. This year we are focusing on combining a number of measures into the Annual Commitment System and renaming it "Measures Central." This will make it a lot easier to reduce the total number of measures and align the various processes. We started this last year and reduced the number of measures in the Annual Commitment System by 15%. I expect we will be able to reduce this more this year, and in the future.
The most important thing is that we use the measures we have to learn how to do our job better. If we aren't using a measure, we should lose it.
From: Robert
In: Tahlequah
Question: Does the EPA plan to integrate GPS/GIS technology
into a web based tool which will allow everyone to see how their area
is faring as far as air contamination, ground and surface water contamination,
soil contamination and other pollution is affecting them?
Marcus Peacock: Yup. Geospatial Information Systems (GIS) is a neat tool to understand and convey environmental information. (And I've always wanted one for hiking - I've asked for a GPS from my wife for Christmas!) EPA already uses GIS technologies to display cross-media information but we are deploying more tools as part of a strategy to better use new technologies to deliver information to the public. Several of these are available on our website such as the Facility Registry System (FRS). This is an excellent example of a GIS application that the Agency uses to convey information about the state of the environment in neighborhoods, towns, and cities to the public. You can link to FRS here: http://www.epa.gov/enviro/html/facility.html
For an old-timer like me, it's pretty darn cool.
Marcus Peacock: Thank you to all who have sent in such great questions and thank you to all of you who are participating by reading our exchange. Sadly, I didn't come close to answering as many questions as the Administrator did last week. That's why he's #1.
I want to invite you to join us again next Thursday (November 15th) at 2 pm. Susan Bodine, Assistant Administrator for Solid Waste and Emergency Response, will discuss recycling and America Recycles Day.
Thanks again, and I hope you all have a great day.