<DOC>
[105th Congress House Hearings]
[From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access]
[DOCID: f:49273.wais]
H.R. 3830, A BILL TO PROVIDE FOR THE EXCHANGE OF CERTAIN LANDS WITHIN
THE STATE OF UTAH
=======================================================================
HEARING
before the
SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL PARKS AND PUBLIC LANDS
of the
COMMITTEE ON RESOURCES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED FIFTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
on
__________
MAY 19, 1998, WASHINGTON, DC
__________
Serial No. 105-89
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Resources
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49-273 CC WASHINGTON : 1998
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COMMITTEE ON RESOURCES
DON YOUNG, Alaska, Chairman
W.J. (BILLY) TAUZIN, Louisiana GEORGE MILLER, California
JAMES V. HANSEN, Utah EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts
JIM SAXTON, New Jersey NICK J. RAHALL II, West Virginia
ELTON GALLEGLY, California BRUCE F. VENTO, Minnesota
JOHN J. DUNCAN, Jr., Tennessee DALE E. KILDEE, Michigan
JOEL HEFLEY, Colorado PETER A. DeFAZIO, Oregon
JOHN T. DOOLITTLE, California ENI F.H. FALEOMAVAEGA, American
WAYNE T. GILCHREST, Maryland Samoa
KEN CALVERT, California NEIL ABERCROMBIE, Hawaii
RICHARD W. POMBO, California SOLOMON P. ORTIZ, Texas
BARBARA CUBIN, Wyoming OWEN B. PICKETT, Virginia
HELEN CHENOWETH, Idaho FRANK PALLONE, Jr., New Jersey
LINDA SMITH, Washington CALVIN M. DOOLEY, California
GEORGE P. RADANOVICH, California CARLOS A. ROMERO-BARCELO, Puerto
WALTER B. JONES, Jr., North Rico
Carolina MAURICE D. HINCHEY, New York
WILLIAM M. (MAC) THORNBERRY, Texas ROBERT A. UNDERWOOD, Guam
JOHN SHADEGG, Arizona SAM FARR, California
JOHN E. ENSIGN, Nevada PATRICK J. KENNEDY, Rhode Island
ROBERT F. SMITH, Oregon ADAM SMITH, Washington
CHRIS CANNON, Utah WILLIAM D. DELAHUNT, Massachusetts
KEVIN BRADY, Texas CHRIS JOHN, Louisiana
JOHN PETERSON, Pennsylvania DONNA CHRISTIAN-GREEN, Virgin
RICK HILL, Montana Islands
BOB SCHAFFER, Colorado RON KIND, Wisconsin
JIM GIBBONS, Nevada LLOYD DOGGETT, Texas
MICHAEL D. CRAPO, Idaho
Lloyd A. Jones, Chief of Staff
Elizabeth Megginson, Chief Counsel
Christine Kennedy, Chief Clerk/Administrator
John Lawrence, Democratic Staff Director
------
Subcommittee on National Parks and Public Lands
JAMES V. HANSEN, Utah, Chairman
ELTON, GALLEGLY, California ENI F.H. FALEOMAVAEGA, American
JOHN J. DUNCAN, Jr., Tennessee Samoa
JOEL HEFLEY, Colorado EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts
WAYNE T. GILCHREST, Maryland NICK J. RAHALL II, West Virginia
RICHARD W. POMBO, California BRUCE F. VENTO, Minnesota
HELEN CHENOWETH, Idaho DALE E. KILDEE, Michigan
LINDA SMITH, Washington FRANK PALLONE, Jr., New Jersey
GEORGE P. RADANOVICH, California CARLOS A. ROMERO-BARCELO, Puerto
WALTER B. JONES, Jr., North Rico
Carolina MAURICE D. HINCHEY, New York
JOHN B. SHADEGG, Arizona ROBERT A. UNDERWOOD, Guam
JOHN E. ENSIGN, Nevada PATRICK J. KENNEDY, Rhode Island
ROBERT F. SMITH, Oregon WILLIAM D. DELAHUNT, Massachusetts
RICK HILL, Montana DONNA CHRISTIAN-GREEN, Virgin
JIM GIBBONS, Nevada Islands
RON KIND, Wisconsin
LLOYD DOGGETT, Texas
Allen Freemyer, Counsel
Todd Hull, Professional Staff
Liz Birnbaum, Democratic Counsel
Gary Griffith, Professional Staff
C O N T E N T S
----------
Page
Hearing held May 19, 1998........................................ 1
Statements of Members:
Cook, Hon. Merrill, a Representative in Congress from the
State of Utah.............................................. 9
Prepared statement of.................................... 9
Faleomavaega, Hon. Eni, a Delegate to Congress from American
Samoa...................................................... 10
Hansen, Hon. James V., a Representative in Congress from the
State of Utah.............................................. 1
Statements of witnesses:
Babbitt, Hon. Bruce, Secretary of the Interior............... 6
Prepared statement of.................................... 6
Bean, Scott, State Superintendent of Public Construction..... 22
Prepared statement of.................................... 31
Johnson, Randy, Chairman of the Emery County Commission...... 15
Prepared statement of.................................... 35
Judd, Joe, Kane County Commissioner.......................... 16
Prepared statement of.................................... 29
Leavitt, Hon. Micheal O., Governor, State of Utah............ 2
Prepared statement of.................................... 3
Plant, Paula, Legislative Vice President, Utah PTA........... 21
Prepared statement of.................................... 29
Terry, David, Director of Schools, Institutional Trust Land
Administration............................................. 24
Prepared statement of.................................... 32
HEARING ON H.R. 3830, A BILL TO PROVIDE FOR THE EXCHANGE OF CERTAIN
LANDS WITHIN THE STATE OF UTAH
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TUESDAY, MAY 19, 1998
House of Representatives, Subcommittee on National
Parks and Public Lands, Committee on Resources,
Washington, DC.
The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:30 a.m., in
room 1334 Longworth House Office Building, Hon. James V. Hansen
(chairman of the Subcommittee) presiding.
STATEMENT OF HON. JAMES V. HANSEN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS
FROM THE STATE OF UTAH
Mr. Hansen. The Committee will come to order.
The Subcommittee convenes to consider H.R. 3830, a bill to
provide for the exchange of certain lands within the State of
Utah. At the onset, I would like to welcome Governor Mike
Leavitt of the State of Utah, and Secretary of the Interior,
Bruce Babbitt and appreciate their willingness in joining us
today. Moreover, I welcome our County Commissioners, Randy
Johnson and Joe Judd as elective representatives from affected
counties. Last, we have a lot of folks from Utah here
representing the school and Institutional Trust Land
Administration, Education, and the Utah PTA. I welcome all of
you and appreciate you being with us.
Over 20 years ago while serving in the Utah State
legislature and as Speaker, I worked closely with then Governor
Scott Matheson to solve the problems that disturbs school trust
land in Utah and the best way to live up to the mandate of
generating revenues for the school children of Utah. Governor
Matheson came up with ``Project Bold'' wherein we would block-
up the school trust lands in exchanges with the Federal
Government. This seemed like a, somewhat, radical idea at the
time, but Governor Matheson actually had foresight that would
help bring us here today.
Finally, during the 103d Congress, we were able to pass
Public Law 103-93 that was designed to exchange these lands out
of Parks and National Forests. However, difficulties with
placing the value on these isolated tracts became impossible.
Then in September 1996, President Clinton signed the
proclamation that locked up the largest and cleanest supply of
coal left in this Nation when he created the Grand Staircase
Escalante National Monument. Unfortunately, a large share of
this coal, not to mention the oil and gas in the monument,
belonged to the school children of Utah. Thus, the pressure was
on this administration to live up to the promise made by the
President as he stood on the South Rim of the Grand Canyon to
ensure that the school children would not suffer from the
creation of the monument. Therefore on May 8, Secretary Babbitt
and Governor Leavitt signed an agreement to trade out all the
school trust lands within National Parks, national forests, and
the monument for BLM acres elsewhere in the State, for
substantial coal interests and $50 million. I commend the
Governor and the Secretary for finding a way to put all of the
difficult issues in Utah aside, and finally find a solution to
help the school children of Utah.
I've introduced this legislation at the request of Governor
Leavitt and this will be called Governor Leavitt's Bill, not
mine. And this expedited hearing is evidence of my intention to
move this legislation as quickly as possible. I understand the
difficulties of reaching this agreement, and I hope to move
this bill through this unpredictable process, and, hopefully,
we can send a bill to the President before the end of this
Congress. It will take all involved to work toward this end.
I look forward to working with the Governor and the
Secretary on this landmark agreement. I look forward to the
testimony and discussion today and I welcome our two witnesses.
And Governor Leavitt, it's always a pleasure to have you with
us. Secretary Babbitt, it's always a pleasure to be with you,
sir.
Now, Governor Leavitt, we'll turn to you and whatever time
you have for your opening statement.
STATEMENT OF HON. MICHEAL O. LEAVITT, GOVERNOR, STATE OF UTAH
Governor Leavitt. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have submitted
for the record my formal statement and I'll summarize that in
the interest of time.
Mr. Hansen. Without objection, all the statements today
will be included in the record and we hope the people somewhat
reduce them.
Governor Leavitt. Well, I'd like to thank you for this
expedited hearing and recognize, Mr. Chairman, that the
difficult and protracted nature of this debate makes this kind
of expedited process both necessary and prudent, and we want to
thank you. I recognize the difficulty of it. I acknowledge the
fact that it would require unprecedented action and I want to
thank you, personally, for your willingness to make this effort
with the other members of our Congressional Delegation. I'd
like to also mention the Secretary and for the long
negotiations that have occurred between us and our staff and
acknowledge the fact that there have been many in this process,
including Governor Matheson who you've spoken of, other
Governors, and other members of our community and State.
The problem is well-defined. Obviously, we have had since
statehood, literally, million of acres that have been deeded to
our school trust lands for the benefit of our children. As many
as 377,000 of them are locked up in areas that bring it
conflict because they are under the jurisdiction of either the
National Parks or some other Federal agency. This is a purpose
of being able to exchange them or what we believe to be fair
value. There will, obviously, be those that will dispute the
values on both sides. If this has critics, they will be on two
sides. One that thinks that the Federal Government did not give
us enough, and those who think the Federal Government gave us
too much. The balance of those, obviously, creates a fair deal
and this is, in fact, a fair deal. It represents benefits to
the children of our State because they will, ultimately, be
able to receive value in those lands that was designed for
them. It will be a benefit to those who live in the areas, and
counties because it will produce employment in areas where
there have not been employment before and it will produce a big
win for the environment for protecting these lands in a very
important way.
As has been mentioned, this will provide as well for the
efficient management of the lands having them in a checkerboard
fashion. The way they are currently is not efficient and not a
good stewardship on the land.
In conclusion, may I say, Mr. Chairman, that for 70 years
and through the administration of 12 presidents and nine
Governors, the Federal Government and the State of Utah have
struggled with the management of these lands. It's during this
administration that 177,000 more acres were locked up within a
national monument. Seventy years and 377,000 acres is too long
and too much. The legislation presents a rare opportunity to
resolve this struggle.
I'd liked to ask for your support in consummating this
agreement. The agreement is a fair and equitable one. It helps
reduce the tensions that have been longstanding over,
literally, decades and generations between Utah and the Federal
Government. It will provide the American people with priceless
land assets that can be managed for national purposes, and it
will enable a logical and efficient management of national
parks, monuments, and recreation areas, and forests within
Utah. This is the time to look forward. It's a time to look
across the table and agree on a fair and equitable value of
exchange that meets the scrutiny of the Department of the
Interior and the State of Utah. It's a very sound policy that
benefits all Americans.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
[The prepared statement of Governor Leavitt follows:]
Statement of Governor Michael O. Leavitt, State of Utah
Good morning Mr. Chairman, thank you for allowing me the
opportunity to speak to you today about the exchange of Utah
School Trust Lands located within national parks, monuments,
recreation areas and forests. This exchange is the single most
significant land swap in Utah since the Utah Enabling Act was
passed in 1894. Like our enabling legislation, the current
agreement was consummated because it brings enormous benefits
to the Federal Government and the State of Utah. I will frame
my remarks in terms of these benefits, trying carefully to help
you understand why this legislation is good state and Federal
public policy.
The Problem
First you must understand the problem. Our enabling
legislation granted sections 2, 16, 32, and 36 of each 36-
square-mile township to the state upon statehood. This means
that there are thousands of 640 acre blocks of school trust
lands distributed all around Utah. These lands were
specifically granted to Utah for the support of the common
schools. By law, these lands must be managed to generate
revenue for Utah's school children. While the measleslike
pattern created one problem for state land managers, other
Federal designations created another difficulty.
Three and a half decades after Utah became a state, the
Federal Government created Arches National Monument, which
later became Arches National Park. The boundaries of the
monument surrounded approximately 6000 acres of Utah's school
trust land. This created two competing management missions; the
National Park Service is charged with preserving these lands,
while Utah's trust land managers are charged with maximizing
their profit potential. Because these school trust lands are
scattered in a checkerboard pattern, neither the Federal
Government nor state land managers could accomplish these
missions effectively. The problem intensified with the creation
of each new national park, national forest, Native American
reservation, recreation area, and monument, finally resulting
by 1990 in over 200,000 acres of school trust land embedded in
an isolated pattern throughout these Federal reserves.
The result has been nearly 70 years of frustration,
distrust, and inefficiencies. Millions of dollars have been
spent on legal battles. The Utah Schools and Lands Improvement
Act of 1993, Public Law 103-93, was passed to help with this
problem, but it too resulted in endless arguments over
appraisals and tallied up large mediation, appraisal, research
and legal costs. The acrimony and frustration reached a peak on
September 18, 1996 when President Clinton set aside 1.7 million
acres in southern Utah as the Grand Staircase-Escalante
National Monument, locking up an additional 177,000 school
trust land acres within a national monument. With a stroke of a
pen the administration declared a national monument the size of
Rhode Island, Delaware and Washington, DC. It should be of no
surprise that lawsuits followed.
As a consolation to the State of Utah, the President agreed
that Utah's school children should not suffer because of the
creation of the new monument. He promised to use the power of
his office to accelerate the exchange process. I am happy to
report to you today that the Department of Interior has worked
fairly, constructively, and responsibly with the State of Utah
to make an exchange of these lands happen. With the signing on
May 8, 1998 of the agreement to exchange school trust lands, we
have made a major step towards keeping the President's promise.
Today I am asking you to support this agreement because it
benefits both the Federal Government and the State of Utah. Let
me now outline the agreement and the benefits.
The Agreement
The entire exchange is of approximately equal value. The
Federal Government receives all state lands within Utah's
national parks, monuments and recreation areas. This tallies
nearly 270,000 acres. The Federal Government also receives all
state lands within the Navajo and Goshute Reservations (47,480
acres) and nearly all state lands within the national forests
(70,000 acres). In total the Federal Government receives nearly
377,000 surface acres and 66,000 acres of mineral-rights-only
acreage.
You should know that since these lands are within national
parks, monuments, recreation areas, and forests they are
similar to the adjacent lands; they are precious lands that are
deserving of special management considerations. Once exchanged,
these lands will be a tremendous asset to the American people.
They will be able to be managed like the adjacent lands without
a competing management objective. The exchange also includes a
provision for 47,000 acres of land with the Navajo and Goshute
Indian Reservations to be managed in a contiguous block for
tribal use.
The State of Utah receives $50 million in cash previously
set aside during the 103d Congress for the Utah Schools and
Lands Improvement Act of 1993 (Public Law 103-93). Since this
money has already been appropriated, H.R. 3830 is revenue
neutral. The State of Utah also receives 160 million tons of
coal, 185 billion cubic feet of coal bed methane resources,
approximately 139,000 acres of land and minerals, and $13
million to be generated from the sale of unleased coal.
Utah's school children will benefit tremendously from an
endowment for future education and a diversified portfolio.
The Benefits
The State of Utah and Secretary of Interior entered into
these negotiations with a desire to (1) consummate a fair and
equitable exchange; (2) help resolve longstanding disputes; (3)
protect the land and the environment where appropriate; and,
(4) improve the efficient management of the land. H.R. 3830
accomplishes all of these.
The exchange is fair and equitable. The State of Utah and
the Federal Government receive approximately equal value from
the exchange. No single individual, corporation, or geographic
area is unduly harmed or benefited. The agreement protects
existing stakeholders by making sure that local governments
continue to receive mineral lease revenues, payments in lieu of
taxes (PILTS) the Federal budget has no fiscal impact, and the
valid existing rights of permittees such as ranchers with
grazing rights are protected. The primary benefactor is the
public--both nationally and locally.
The exchange helps resolve longstanding disputes. Utah's
school trust land managers have agreed to drop their current
lawsuit over the creation of the Grand Stair-
case-Escalante National Monument if this legislation is passed.
The Federal Government and the State Trust Lands Administration
will save millions of dollars in continuing legal battles if
this exchange is consummated. And, President Clinton's promise
to make sure that the school children of Utah are not hurt by
the creation of a national monument will be fulfilled.
The exchange protects the land and the environment where it
is appropriate. This exchange assures the American public that
over 257,000 acres of land that are now owned by the people of
Utah in some of America's greatest treasures will be entirely
managed for park and monument purposes. No longer will there be
the threat of a development within a national park, monument,
or recreation area that is not consistent with the larger areas
management directive. Moreover, an additional 70,000 acres of
state lands within the national forests in Utah will now be
managed the same as other national forest lands. The American
public will be assured of access to and protection of these
prime recreation and preservation lands.
These aren't just ordinary lands. Let me give you an
example of some of the lands the American Public will receive
in this exchange:
<bullet> Eye of the Whale Arch within Arches National Park
<bullet> The Perfect Ruin-An Ancient Anazasi ruin with
artifacts including intact thousand year old corn cobs within
the Glen Canyon NRA
<bullet> Several hundred foot red rock cliffs overlooking the
Escalante River within the Grand Staircase-Escalante National
Monument
<bullet> Jacob Hamblin Arch--within The Glen Canyon NRA
<bullet> The Franklin Basin--a spectacular high mountain alpine
area within the Wasatch-Cache National Forest
<bullet> Ancient Native American rock art panels within
Dinosaur National Monument
<bullet> The unique geologic formations of the Waterpocket Fold
within Capitol Reef National Park
On the other hand, the lands transferred to the state were
specifically chosen with a sensitivity to environmental concerns. State
and Federal negotiators did not include lands that would be mined by
surface mining techniques or that are areas of critical environmental
concern, potential wilderness or habitat for endangered species. All of
the lands exchanged to the state will still be fully subject to all
environmental laws applicable to resource development.
The exchange improves the efficient management of the lands.
Consolidation of these lands for management purposes has been a
longstanding goal for public land managers. The checkerboard pattern
may have made sense in the 1800s when it was believed that virtually
all Federal and state lands would eventually be sold to private
interests providing revenues to support the common schools and a tax
base for state and local government.
The Federal Homesteading Act of 1864 and Desert Land Entry Act of
1877 were indicative of this thinking. But over the years Federal land
policies have changed from disposition to retention, leaving the
checkerboard pattern largely in place. As a result, a logical state and
Federal management policy cannot exist. This exchange consolidates
these assets both nationally and locally, providing both entities with
a more sensible management task.
Conclusion
For nearly 70 years and through the administrations of twelve
presidents and nine governors, the Federal Government and the State of
Utah have struggled with the management of these lands. It was during
my administration that 177,000 more acres were locked within a national
monument. Seventy years and 377,000 acres is too long and too much.
This legislation presents a rare opportunity to resolve this struggle.
I ask for your support in consummating this agreement. The agreement is
fair and equitable; helps reduce tensions from longstanding disputes
between Utah and the Federal Government; provides the American people
with priceless land assets that can be managed for national purposes;
and will enable logical and efficient management of national parks,
monuments, recreation areas, and forests within Utah. Now is the time
to look across the table and agree that a fair and equal value exchange
that meets the scrutiny of the Department of Interior and the State of
Utah is sound policy for all Americans.
Mr. Hansen. Thank you, Governor. Mr. Secretary, it's a
honor to have you with us. Turn the time to you.
STATEMENT OF HON. BRUCE BABBITT, SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR
Secretary Babbitt. Mr. Chairman, I, on behalf of the
Department and the administration, first, want to thank you for
having this expedited hearing and for your leadership role in
moving this agreement through the legislative process. This
agreement has been a long time in gestation, and I do hope that
we can--together take advantage of this moment and seal this
agreement in Federal legislation. I don't know whether the
opportunity would ever come again in exactly this form, whether
it would come in this generation if at all. So, I'm most
grateful for your efforts.
Mr. Chairman, as you have already mentioned in your opening
statement, this Land Exchange Agreement didn't just occur. It
has roots that extend way back to the efforts of Governor
Matheson with Project Bold, to your own leadership in pushing
Public Law 103-93, providing a framework which actually made
possible an exchange of this size and complexity. And, of
course, President Clinton instructed me very directly at the
time of the Monument Proclamation that he expected me,
personally, to deliver on his promise that we would get these
exchange issues resolved; that this administration recognized
the obligation to the school children of Utah; and that in
close cases we should resolve issues thoughtfully with an eye
toward the fact that the proceeds and the values of this
exchange going to benefit the Utah school children of that
State.
I think I should say once again how important the
leadership efforts of Governor Leavitt have been to this. It
simply would not have happened without the Governor's
willingness to step forward, to take some risks. I remember
well when he came to my office on a Sunday in February of the
National Governor's Conference. We sat and talked for,
probably, an hour one-on-one, and he said to me then. He said
there are--not often are there these moments when we can step
forward and transcend the day-to-day issues and implement a
larger vision. And I think he very accurately characterized
this as the Leavitt bill which in the spirit and impetus in
leadership it most certainly is.
Last, a word about the importance, once again, of moving
this legislation. I know it's late in the session. It's late in
a very short session, but this issue has been thoroughly
addressed. It's been negotiated with extraordinary vigor on
both sides, and I believe that the time to strike is now, and I
would simply say, Mr. Chairman, I am here in support of
Governor Leavitt, my many new friends in the State of Utah, and
will do anything I possibly can to help, including if
necessary, remaining silent starting right now.
[Laughter.]
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Secretary Babbitt follows:]
Statement of Hon. Bruce Babbitt, Secretary, U.S. Department of the
Interior
Good morning, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for this
opportunity to appear before you today concerning H.R. 3830,
the Utah Schools and Lands Exchange Act of 1998. It is my
pleasure to join with Governor Mike Leavitt and the entire Utah
delegation to testify on behalf of this recently negotiated,
comprehensive land exchange agreement between the Interior
Department and the State of Utah.
More than a decade ago, a great Utah governor had a vision
of sweeping realignment of publicly owned land in Utah. Scott
Matheson told anyone who would listen of the great benefits of
this realignment for the State, its public schools, and for the
United States as well. His vision, appropriately named Project
BOLD, was ahead of its time. But it planted a seed that has
today burst into flower.
Less than two years ago, Governor Matheson's widow looked
on as the President of the United States proclaimed the Grand
Staircase-Escalante National Monument. She heard the President
acknowledge that within the borders of the Monument were
176,000 acres of State land, and heard his promise to work with
the State to trade out those lands, to ensure that the school
children of Utah will benefit from, and not be burdened by, the
Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument. Less than two
weeks ago, it was my pleasure to stand with Norma Matheson and
Mike Leavitt to celebrate the fulfillment of President
Clinton's promise and the realization of Scott Matheson's
dream. Many have sought this elusive goal, Mr. Chairman, but it
took this Governor to make it happen.
After long controversy and stalemate, Governor Leavitt and
I agreed that the two of us should work together to break the
deadlock and find solutions to Utah's inholdings problem. We
agreed that both of us stood to gain by consolidating our lands
for better management, and that both of us would be better off
it we spent our time and money investing in the lands and the
people instead of litigation and lawyers. We pledged to each
other that in negotiating this deal, we would protect the
environment, protect the taxpayers, and make the state school
trust whole.
I am pleased to appear before you today, Mr. Chairman, to
report that we have met those goals. The President's promise
has been kept, and sooner than most would have expected. In
fact, the Governor and I have gone well beyond that promise to
negotiate the resolution of the difficult state trust land
issues beyond the borders of the Grand Staircase-Escalante
National Monument.
Many have noted the historic dimensions associated with
reaching this agreement. As Governor of Arizona, I helped
engineer some big, mutually beneficial state-Federal land
trades. But I've never done anything on this scale before. And
as far as I know, no one else has either, at least in the lower
48 states. Passage and enactment of this legislation would mark
the end of six decades of controversy over the issue of Utah's
trust land inholdings within national parks, forests,
monuments, and reservations.
If not historic, Mr. Chairman, I think it is at least
notable that you and I, together with Governor Leavitt and the
rest of the Utah Congressional delegation, joined by trust land
administrators and environmentalists, are all in agreement on
the resolution of a major public lands issue in your state.
With this settlement, perhaps we have opened a positive new
chapter in the Federal-state relationship concerning public
land management in Utah. The scope and complexity of the
negotiations and the agreement itself were and are enormous.
The fact that so many had tried for so long to no avail was a
signal to both of us that the idea of going through the
standard administrative channels, tract by tract, was going to
be a prescription for further delay, litigation, and expense to
both Federal and state taxpayers.
As a result, Governor Leavitt and I agreed that all issues
would be on the table, and that the two of us would commit to
negotiating a single, comprehensive, non-segmentable agreement.
We understood that while it would be possible to argue over the
value of individual tracts, or whether one of us got a better
deal on one small part of the exchange, it was critically
important that both of us be able to agree at the conclusion of
the negotiations that both parties were treated fairly and that
we had in fact, to the satisfaction of both, arrived at an
equal value exchange. The negotiations were spirited, and both
sides fought hard for their interests. In my judgment, we
succeeded. This is a fair deal, for both sides.
I believe that the Governor will speak to the important
benefits in this agreement for the state trust lands
administration and the school children of Utah. I would like to
take a few moments to address the other two components of our
concern, the environment and the taxpayers.
I have three observations to make concerning the very
important environmental considerations and understandings that
are part of this agreement. First, the Utah State school trust
lands in this deal include properties within the National Park
System, the National Forest System, and the Grand Staircase-
Escalante National Monument. Because these are some of the most
renowned lands in the United States, and because a mission of
the state trust lands administration is to produce revenues for
Utah's public schools, we knew that an exchange of this kind
would resolve many of the longstanding and inherent
environmental conflicts occurring on these public lands.
Second, the Federal assets we made available for exchange
with the state were selected with a great sensitivity to
environmental concerns and a belief and expecta-
tion by both parties that the Federal assets conveyed to the
state would be highly unlikely to trigger significant
environmental controversy. We both agreed at the outset of
negotiations to avoid lands where we knew of any of the
following existed or could be reasonably foreseen: significant
wildlife resources, endangered species habitats, significant
archeological resources, areas of critical environmental
concern, coal requiring surface mining, wilderness study areas,
significant recreational areas, scenic areas, or any other
lands known to raise significant environmental concerns of any
kind.
And third, we agreed that where the state obtains mineral
interests as part of this agreement and the Federal Government
retains the surface or other interest, any development that
takes place will not conflict with established Federal land and
environmental management objectives. We further agreed that any
such development will be fully subject to all of the
environmental regulations applying to development of non-
Federal minerals on Federal lands.
Mr. Chairman, Governor Leavitt and I also agreed that the
interest of the American taxpayer must be protected, and I am
pleased to report that we have done so. This agreement was
negotiated with the goal of producing a budget-neutral
document, so that we could assure all Members of Congress that
the budgets we have all worked so hard to contain would not be
affected.
I repeat, when all of the lands, interests, and money in
the deal are taken into account, we have negotiated an
approximately equal value exchange. Except for the $50 million
cash payment, already authorized and scored under Public Law
103-93, the remainder of the properties comprise an asset
exchange of speculative, commercial, and conservation lands.
Both sides fought hard for the interests of their
constituencies, and considerable energy went into guaranteeing
that neither side was taking advantage of the other, that each
felt they received a fair and equal deal when negotiations had
concluded.
Governor Leavitt and I were not working in a vacuum.
Through your personal leadership, and that of your predecessor,
Mr. Vento, former Chairman Miller, and other members of this
Committee working directly with the Utah delegation, the
Governor and I already had the template to work from for
dealing with the lands outside the Monument. This was Public
Law 103-93, which had already identified many of the properties
and the framework for carrying out such an exchange. Like
Governor Matheson's Project BOLD, Public Law 103-93 helped
chart the course that the two of us followed.
I would like to similarly salute the School and
Institutional Trust Lands Administration for developing the
concept of a like-for-like exchange with the Federal
Government, which helped reframe the debate over the Monument
lands. Members of this Committee encouraged SITLA in the
formulation of its proposal, which was widely circulated around
the Congress, the environmental community, and the State of
Utah. The essential elements of this agreement are contained in
proposals and legislation that has been drafted for years;
there is little, if anything new in the agreement.
Building on these ideas, the Governor and I were able to
establish a connection of mutual trust and commitment to see
this process through and conclude the long, difficult years of
conflict and controversy in a way that protected the interests
of both sides and will in fact benefit both parties.
I want you to know, Mr. Chairman, that I will stand by this
deal. However, I must also make it clear, as I have to the
Governor already, that Administration support is contingent on
the passage of a clean bill, with no amendments, riders, or
other objectionable legislation attached. While I believe this
is a good deal for the environment, the taxpayers, and the
school trust of Utah, I will have no hesitation about
recommending a veto if any objectionable provisions are
attached in this Congress.
We negotiated to the limit of what we believe is
acceptable, and any attempt to turn this vehicle into a
Christmas tree for other legislation opposed by the
Administration will result in killing this agreement. With that
understanding, I stand ready to help however I can, Mr.
Chairman. The President's promise to negotiate in good faith
has been kept. It is now up to Congress to deliver the
legislation without substantive change to the President's desk.
This concludes my prepared statement. I would be happy to
answer any questions the Committee may have.
Mr. Hansen. Thank you, Mr. Secretary. What a refreshing
statement.
[Laughter.]
We're happy to have with us our colleague from the Second
District in Utah, Merrill Cook. Merrill, I'll turn the time to
you. Pull that mike over.
STATEMENT OF HON. MERRILL COOK, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS
FROM THE STATE OF UTAH
Mr. Cook. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I, too,
want to commend you for your expedited hearing on this very
important agreement, and I wish to add my voice to those of
yours in complimenting Governor Leavitt and Secretary Babbitt
on a very historic and, I think, very, very important
agreement. I think this land swap is particularly a wonderful
thing for the Utah school children, both the children of today
and the children of tomorrow.
It was a just a year ago a rather frustrated Utah
delegation held a press conference here in Washington to
publicly call on President Clinton to honor the promise he made
to exchange school trust lands inside the Escalante Staircase
Monument with lands of equal value. I joined in that press
conference and I honestly believed it would take many years and
much pressure before the exchange took place, but now we have a
land swap that could over the lifetime of the deal bring a
billion dollars to Utah's schools and school children.
The impact of this land swap will be seen in our schools
for decades to come. Just with the $61 million in cash alone,
we could immediately decrease our average class size by about
two students. And Utah, as you know, has the--currently, the
largest class size in the country.
This land exchange talks a lot about leases, lands, and
mineral rights, but it's not really about those things. It's
about quality education. It's about more teachers, smaller
class size, more books in our library, more up-to-date
computers. Ultimately, it's about whatever the people and the
educators of Utah want it to be about. That's the beauty of the
money from the school trust lands. It's our money for our
children and we decide where to spend it, not faceless
bureaucrats 2,000 miles away in Washington, DC.
President Clinton grabbed national headlines earlier this
year with his proposal for a Nationwide Class Size Reduction
Program. The program, unfortunately for Utah, mostly favored
northeastern cities and, ultimately, would have brought so
little money to Utah that we couldn't even reduce our class
size by a half a child. The funding for the program did fall
apart it looks like with the tobacco deal, but, inadvertently,
President Clinton through this land swap. It's helping to make
a dramatic difference in the educational quality of our State.
This really is our children's land. The money from this land
blesses them in one of the most profound ways the government
can bless children through better education.
In closing, I just want to state in the strongest terms
possible my hearty support for this land exchange.
Thank you very much.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Cook follows:]
Statement of Hon. Merrill Cook, a Representative in Congress from the
State of Utah
Mr. Chairman, thank you for this opportunity to say a few
words about this historic land swap between the Federal
Government and Utah. I think this land swap is a particularly
wonderful thing for Utah school children; both the children of
today and the children of tomorrow.
A year ago, a rather frustrated Utah delegation held a
press conference here in Washington to publicly call on
President Clinton to honor the promise he made to exchange
school trust lands inside the Escalante Staircase Monument with
lands of equal value. I joined in that press conference. I
honestly believed it would take many years and more pressure
before the exchange took place.
But, now we have a land swap that could, over the lifetime
of the deal, bring $1 billion to Utah's schools and school
children.
The impact of this land swap will be seen in our schools
for decades to come. Just with the $61 million in cash, alone,
we could immediately decrease our average class size by two
students. Utah, as you know, currently has the largest class
size in the country.
This land exchange isn't really about leases, land and
mineral rights. This is about quality education. It's about
more teachers, smaller class size, more books in our libraries,
more up-to-date computers. Ultimately, it's about whatever the
people and educators of Utah want it to be about. That's the
beauty of the money from the school trust lands. It's our
money. For our children. And we decide where to spend it, not
some faceless bureaucrats 2,000 miles away in Washington, DC.
President Clinton grabbed national headlines earlier this
year with his proposal for a nationwide class size reduction
program. The program mostly favored northestern cities and
ultimately would have brought so little money to Utah that we
couldn't even reduce our class size by half a child.
The funding for the program collapsed with the tobacco
deal. But, inadvertently, President Clinton, through this land
swap, is helping to make a dramatic difference in the
educational quality of our state. This really is our children's
land. The money from this land blesses them in one of the most
profound ways a government can bless children: Through better
education.
In closing, I want to state in the strongest terms possible
my hearty support for this land exchange. Thank you.
Mr. Hansen. Thank you, Congressman Cook.
Congressman Cannon, I guess, should be walking in and we'll
take him when he comes.
Our good friend and Ranking Member from America Samoa, Mr.
Faleomavaego, is here, a misplaced Utahn anyway.
[Laughter.]
So we will turn to you now for any statement you may have.
STATEMENT OF HON. ENI FALEOMAVAEGA, A DELEGATE TO CONGRESS FROM
AMERICAN SAMOA
Mr. Faleomavaega. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you
for calling this hearing for this very important occasion and
certainly want to welcome our good Secretary of the Interior,
Secretary Babbitt, and Governor Leavitt. It's always a pleasure
to have you join our Subcommittee and our colleague, Merrill
Cook.
Mr. Chairman, I was very pleased to hear recently that
Governor Leavitt and Secretary Babbitt signed an agreement on
May 8th to provide for an exchange of lands between the State
of Utah and the Federal Government. I know the lands involved
have been a major source of contention for both parties. We
have spent many hours in the Subcommittee dealing with issues
associated with lands covered by the agreement. If this
agreement can put the land exchange issue to rest in a fair and
equitable manner, I'm certainly all for it.
With the agreement only being publicly announced a little
over a week ago, there has not been much time to study the
agreement. I hope today's hearing can fill in the details of
the agreement and its impact. And I certainly want to commend
Governor Leavitt and Secretary Babbitt for their outstanding
work and leadership in bringing this legislation to the
forefront. For far too long, this issue has frustrated
efficient land management, sapped the people's energy, and
denied benefits to the Utah School Trust and our country.
These two gentlemen, with the support of many others,
recognize the current situation was doing nothing for the
people or the resources. In paraphrasing former Governor
Matheson, they have taken a bold step in resolving this long-
festering issue. I certainly want to thank both gentlemen for
their testimony this morning and I sincerely hope that we will
definitely expedite this piece of legislation.
Mr. Hansen. Does the gentleman have any questions at this
time?
Mr. Faleomavaega. Mr. Chairman, I do. Mr. Hinchey would
like to be here, but because of his other commitments he has to
attend, I would like to ask unanimous consent for his statement
from the gentleman be made a part of the record.
Mr. Hansen. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Faleomavaega. Governor, if I may ask you--why have the
questions of value been so difficult in the past and how are
you and Secretary able to overcome these horrendous problems?
Governor Leavitt. The question of what value land holds,
obviously, is a tricky one under any circumstance. We've been
able to overcome it in this case because we've, basically, been
able to trade land for land and resource for resource. The
cash, obviously, has become part of the deal, but by going to
land for land, mineral for mineral it's made it easier. And I
think the other thing is that we decided it's time to agree, to
come to a conclusion. There's been lots of dynamics that have
encompassed this process for the last seventy years. The time
is now to resolve it and we've been able to meet what I think
to be a very fair and equitable settlement.
Mr. Hansen. One of the biggest problems we've ever had on
this Committee the whole 18 years I've been on it is land
values. It's just so difficult to determine what values are,
and I commend both you and the Secretary for doing this. How's
this been accepted by other elected officials in the State of
Utah?
Governor Leavitt. I think you will find today that the
Association of Counties will speak for themselves, but they
have passed resolutions in support of this. There has been a
strong support by our school community and by those in our
State legislature. There will be others who will be able to
speak on that today, but I think you will find there is very
strong support for this agreement throughout our State.
Mr. Hansen. How about your elected legislative leaders,
your Speaker and your President of the Senate? How are they
looking at this or have they made a determination of it yet?
Governor Leavitt. The President of the Senate has spoken to
me on his support. I've not had a chance to speak with the
Speaker about it. I've seen him publicly indicating he's
anxious to have more details, but optimistic about the fact
that it's been resolved.
Mr. Hansen. You know around here we're very skeptical. We
always see a good deal start out and then we get blindsided
somewhere. I have great feelings for Steve Young as I watch him
play football because he just has a great pass and he gets
blindsided and smeared. And when I was first here, I didn't
believe that happened, but it happens on a regular basis as
you've seen.
Mr. Secretary where will the $50 million come from? Will
OMB go along with this payment?
Secretary Babbitt. Mr. Chairman, the answer is yes. The
origins of the $50 million are, of course, in Public Law 103-93
where the legislation itself contemplated $50 million in a form
of a royalty stream, and it was scored at that time. So, it is
our judgment that this will be pay-go neutral, and I believe
that with a little pushing and shoving, and tugging and
hauling, that OMB will support this legislation and render that
opinion.
Mr. Hansen. I'm looking forward to the pushing and shoving
part, Mr. Secretary, that I'm sure you're very able at doing,
as I've seen you in the past.
Mr. Secretary, in all, this is a landmark piece of
legislation, and we, of course, commend both you and the
Governor for the excellent work that you've done, but there are
other people in Utah that have done some awfully good work down
in the San Rafael Swell area. I think that the county
commissioners and many, many people for many years in that area
have worked very diligently to come up with really an excellent
piece of legislation which would again resolve another part of
the puzzle that we have with problems between the Federal and
the State, and the State of Utah.
In markup in that bill, we took out, in my mind, most of
the objectionable parts that the Department of Interior came up
to testify on. Mr. Pat Shea came up and made some objections
which I think we able to overcome. And then also Mr. Hinchey
came up with four amendments, and other than the Utah water
law, I think we resolved all those. And I'm sure that they
would not expect us to change Utah water law around. You know
the problem we get in there wouldn't be a lot bigger than
anything we're looking at here. So, I would really appreciate
it if you'd give some thought to that bill. Another good step
forward, another well-thought-out piece of legislation and help
us out if you could.
And also within the monument, there's the little towns of
Tropic and Cannonville who have got some horrendous problems
just on very minor things, 12 acres here, 13 acres there. That
bill will be introduced, I hope by one of my colleagues, by the
end of this week. If they don't get it introduced by the end of
this week, I don't think it's got a chance, but time is running
out fast on us. I would hope you would give some thought to
looking at those two pieces of legislation and give it the same
thoughtful consideration you've given this one. I'd be very
appreciative if you would.
Secretary Babbitt. Mr. Chairman, just briefly a couple of
thoughts.
We're certainly prepared on this Escalante Boundary issues
to get down and see if we can work those out. The
administration at this point does not support the San Rafael
legislation. If there's one thing I've learned in this process,
it is that if we keep talking, you know, there are ways to find
common ground.
The Governor and I have been talking, talking, talking for
6 years about exchanges, about wilderness and I think that this
product today is largely a result of our ability to
communicate, and I'm certainly pledged to do that because I
recognize from the Fed-
eral perspective the benefits that these agreements can bring.
We've talked about the benefits to Utah. I would simply
reiterate that we are clearing out with this deal in holdings
in two national parks, Arches and Capital Reef, Dinosaur
National Monument, Glen Canyon National Recreation Area,
Flaming Gorge, a whole flock of national forests, Wasatch,
Sawtooth, Ashley, Caribou, Uintah, Manti-La Sal, Fishlake, and
Dixie. So, there are manifest benefits on both sides and I say
that by way of underlining my willingness to continue working
these issues. If we don't succeed at first, that's all the more
reason to keep trying.
Mr. Hansen. And I couldn't agree more. I think that's very
important. You may recall when the two of us were in the Oval
Office a year or so ago, and the President signed the bill. It
had over 110 titles in it. Most of those, the administration
opposed before this Committee, and we did work most of those
out.
Secretary Babbitt. Mr. Chairman, I would only add that my
participation in this dialogue is contingent upon your leading
me in Utah in search of the Bonneville cutthroat trout this
summer.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Hansen. Mr. Secretary, I was going to comment on that,
and I was going to take you to a place where there's so many
Bonneville Cutthroat you would wonder why you even considered
it endangered and I'm sure you would enjoy some very great
times flyfishing up there. In fact, the fishing is so good that
you have to stand behind a tree to tie on your fly.
[Laughter.]
Secretary Babbitt. I'm coming to see it.
Mr. Hansen. I'm looking forward to taking you there.
The gentleman from American Samoa.
Mr. Faleomavaega. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
As a matter of observation, Secretary Babbitt and Governor
Leavitt, how is it that after some 20 years that both of you
gentlemen are able to resolve one of the most contentious
issues that Utah has faced? Is it because you have some
fraternal brotherhood of being former Governor and Governor
Leavitt?
Secretary Babbitt. Congressman, I don't want to compromise
his reputation by acknowledging such a relationship, but it's
true.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Faleomavaega. Is there any particular area or provision
of the bill, both Secretary Babbitt, Governor Leavitt, and
Congressman Cook that you feel that we ought to look at it
closely? Some objections from anybody on this Subcommittee that
we ought to look into or do you feel very comfortable that the
provisions of the bill are quite well in compliance with NEPA
and other Federal acts?
Governor Leavitt. Congressman, this bill was hard
negotiated over several months. It became clear to both of us
that the first and most important requirement to coming to an
agreement was to agree that we were going to find a solution to
push beyond the boundaries of what had been previously been an
obstacle. You will find here compromises on both sides. You
will hear this bill, I suspect before it's over and as the
Congressman suggested, criticized from both sides. There will
be those who say it was unfair on the part of the Federal
Government and unfair on the part of local gov-
ernment. That is the makings, I think, of a fair exchange. We
have approached it on a land-for-land, mineral-for-mineral
basis. For the most part, I think that was the key and I do
believe that there has been the fact that we have worked over a
period of time to establish an atmosphere for decisionmaking
that has been successful.
Mr. Faleomavaega. Has the----
Secretary Babbitt. Congressman, if I may? I would add only
two things. I think there's a danger here of beginning--of
stepping into the bill to kind of pick at specific provisions
and say that ``X'' is not exactly equal to ``Y,'' because as
the Governor explained the valuation approach in this really
integrates upward to the total benefits on both sides.
The second, if I may--danger here is that there will be
riders offered throughout the process, and this bill will
emerge draped with provisions designed to provoke a
Presidential veto which would be a great tragedy. And my only
hope would be that we can keep this package together, keep it
clean free of riders, and get it done.
Mr. Faleomavaega. Mr. Secretary, you certainly make a very
keen observation about the realities of the politics here. When
a member sees a bill that is almost for sure that it's going to
be signed by the President, not necessarily by this side, the
other body also has those temptations, and putting riders on
things that are totally unrelated to the bill at hand. So, I do
appreciate your observation.
Governor Leavitt has the State legislature of Utah passed
any resolution or petition or anything in support of this
legislation?
Governor Leavitt. Our State legislature is not currently in
session, therefore would not be able to--there have been many
calls on behalf of our legislature and other bodies in our
State for this transaction to occur, but there is no means nor
is it necessary for our legislature to bless this directly. We
formed with our School Institutional and Trust Lands a Board
that has been delegated full responsibility to optimize the use
of the lands for the benefit of school children. They passed
support. They have approved it five-to-one with great
enthusiasm and a meeting on the 14th. That's the only formal
approval that's necessary.
Mr. Faleomavaega. It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that on
contentious issues that the Honorable Secretary has personally
taken a hand in negotiating issues of this nature that maybe we
ought to have him negotiate all other contentious issues that
come before this Subcommittee and maybe we could on a very
good, strong bipartisan basis resolve some of these
objectionable stuff that comes before the Subcommittee. But, I
certainly want to commend both the Governor and the Secretary,
and Merrill, it's always a welcome sight to have you also
testify in the Committee.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Hansen. Thank you.
The gentlelady from the Virgin Islands.
Ms. Christian-Green. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd just like to
welcome our distinguished panel, but I have no questions.
Mr. Hansen. Thank you very much. We appreciate the
Secretary, the Governor. Thanks for being here.
Congressman Cook you're welcome to join us on the dais if
you're so inclined. I appreciate your presence with us.
Thanks so much.
Our next panel will be Randy Johnson, Chairman of the Emery
County Commission, and Joe Judd, Kane County Commissioner. If
these two commissioners, would come up we'd appreciate it.
Commissioner Johnson, we'll start with you, sir.
STATEMENT OF RANDY JOHNSON, CHAIRMAN OF THE EMERY COUNTY
COMMISSION
Mr. Johnson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's so nice to be
back again so quickly. I appreciate the opportunity to testify
today. I speak on behalf of the Utah Association of Counties as
Chair of the Utah Association of Counties Public Land Oversight
Committee.
I'd like to commend Governor Leavitt and congratulate all
of those who have worked so hard for so long to remain focused
on resolution of this longstanding problem. I would like also
to emphasize to you that this is truly a great thing for the
school children of Utah, especially in light of the fact that
we have been trying to get some value out of these captured
land sections for over 60 years.
The counties of Utah are pleased to have played a role this
exchange process. Utah Association of Counties involvement in
these tradeout efforts has been as a result of our constant
exposure to public lands' issues which impact our lives. In
combination with our desire to cooperate with State
Institutional Trust Lands in bringing about what is in the best
interest of the children that they represent.
All too often environmental issues override the day-to-day
human aspect of our public lands and cause us to disregard the
fact that everything we need to survive and prosper as a human
family comes from the land. To finally have some ability to
enhance the education and, thus, the future of the children of
Utah through the proper use of some of these lands is truly
significant. It's also very significant that a cooperative
effort has led to resolution of a longstanding problem. This is
something which is very difficult to achieve in public lands
matters today.
UAC's involvement with this particular exchange is a result
of our partnership with SITLA in opposing, in the courts, the
creation of the Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument. It
is from that perspective that I both support this legislation
and also voice my concern regarding the issues surrounding this
exchange.
UAC joined SITLA in filing suit on the monument based on
what we believe was an improper lack of process and public
involvement as required by law. It is important to note that
nothing in this exchange addresses the points of law over which
UAC filed suit. It does, however, address the concerns over
which SITLA joined our efforts and we are happy that SITLA has
succeeded in gaining some compensation for their losses. We
support this exchange for that reason, but while the exchange
benefits SITLA substantially, it in no way compensates for the
huge loss in future revenues which exist from existing mineral
leases within the monument.
Further, the county's impacted most directly by the
monument's creation, Garfield and Kane, gained very little
benefit from this tradeout. UAC has expressed concern over a
number of issues which we have noted in my written testimony
and I will draw your attention to those. While concerns over
these matters will, certainly, not cause us to oppose this
proposal, we do want these issues in the record and part of the
process that implements the provisions of this legislation.
We would like to emphasize at this point that SITLA has
worked very hard to address to our satisfaction any concerns we
have raised with them and we ask that you would work to
maintain the protections in the legislative process. It is
important to note here that the public mandates, and therefore
the priorities, of Utah's counties and SITLA are different in
many ways. Consequently, this exchange must be viewed as a
substantial success as it relates to SITLA's prescribed
priority as trustees of those lands set aside that assist in
the education of Utah's school children. With these concerns so
addressed, we support legislation which would allow this
exchange to succeed. We cannot emphasize enough the benefit it
would provide for the school children of Utah.
In conclusion, Mr. Babbitt has said in his testimony and in
his written testimony I quote ``with this settlement, perhaps
we have opened a positive new chapter in the Federal-State
relationship concerning public land management in Utah.'' Utah
Association of Counties would be even more enthusiastic in our
support if we knew that this exchange would indeed set the
stage for a more cooperative atmosphere in public lands
matters; that it would set a precedent for future successful
tradeouts of captured State trust lands in other areas; and
that it would open the door to resolution-oriented negotiations
on all contentious public lands' issues in the future. We hope
that it does exactly that.
Thank you very much.
Mr. Hansen. Thank you, Commissioner.
Commissioner Judd.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Johnson may be found at end
of hearing.]
STATEMENT OF JOE JUDD, KANE COUNTY COMMISSIONER
Mr. Judd. Good morning, Mr. Chairman, and members of the
Subcommittee. I'd like to express my great appreciation to you
and, especially, to the staff that has been so cooperative in
making this opportunity to approach you in an otherwise
difficult situation almost pleasurable.
I wish to address you on behalf of the Commissioner of Kane
County for allowing me to testify and the bill will provide an
Exchange Lands within the State of Utah. Let me begin by saying
that we had some reservations when we heard that this had
occurred. We had concerns about mineral interests, grazing
rights, access, water, and PILT payments. All of those,
apparently, have been addressed successfully within the
compromise of the bill. We would like to also tell you that the
exchange in effect will allow the transfer of mineral rights.
Let me begin by saying that we in no way wish to interfere
with the agreement that has been negotiated between the State
of Utah and the Department of Interior, but at the same time we
would like to address what we believe is an omission of Kane
County and positive consequences of the exchange.
The exchange, in effect, transfers the value of mineral and
energy resources out of Kane County into other areas of the
State. These are values that were critical to the future
development of the economy, the communities, especially Kane
County. In return, we are faced with costs and responsibilities
related to Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument.
Although we have an interest in tourism, we are being asked to
trade high income, primary income jobs, wage earners into a
low-paying second income job and end the tourist industry. And
still we have been looking forward with resignation trying to
do the best we can with the cards we've been dealt.
Mr. Chairman, I think the disparity should be more than
obvious to everyone. It is our understanding that there will be
royalties paid from resources of the development on BLM lands
in some of the exchange areas. One-half of that royalty will be
going to the State of Utah. The other half going to the Federal
Treasury. It is our proposal that a significant portion of the
Federal share go to the protection of monument resources and
the mitigation of monument impacts on Kane County and local
governments.
We believe that this can be implemented legislatively and
not affect the negotiated agreement. The Federal royalties
could be deposited in a fund for the county. A mechanism could
be developed for the release of these funds based on criteria
and factors spelled out in a bill or developed within the
Department of Interior.
The Secretary has recognized the appropriateness of the
utility of the county's role as has the Congress through
appropriations. The fund would decrease the dependency for
annual appropriations. Incidentally, I'm not here today
representing Garfield County, but they may have a similar
concern and may wish to participate in share of the fund. If
that's the case, I'm sure that some fair and proportional
formula can be devised.
We do not have specific language to offer at this time, but
if the Committee is receptive to the general proposal, we'd be
happy to develop language with the Committee.
Thank you again very much for allowing me to come and to
represent my county, and I'll answer questions if I may?
Thank you Mr. Chairman.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Judd may be found at end of
hearing.]
Mr. Hansen. Thank you, Commissioner Judd.
The gentleman from American Samoa.
Mr. Faleomavaega. Mr. Chairman, I want to thank both
gentlemen for their testimonies. I have no questions.
Mr. Hansen. The gentlelady from the Virgin Islands.
Ms. Christian-Green. Same. I just want to thank you for
coming and giving your testimony. I have no questions, either,
Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Hansen. I recognize our colleague from the Second
District of Utah.
Mr. Cook. Thank you. I certainly appreciate the testimony.
I would just like to ask the commissioners what they could
identify in this bill, or in the process leading up to it, that
might be useful for the Resources Committee and those of us in
Congress and the administration in trying to achieve closure on
one of the most difficult question and that's the overall
wilderness issue in the State of Utah? Is this a potential
opening to finding a formula that might be satisfactory both in
terms of a reasonable setaside and preservation of jobs and
economic development? Do you see anything in here that might--
--
Mr. Johnson. Well, Congressman, as you are aware, Emery
County has a bill that is now in committee. It has been passed
out of the subcommittee, that we feel is a bill that addresses
all concerns of all interested parties on public lands' issues
which include wilderness and everything from that point outward
that we think has a very good chance of bringing people to a
different perspective on the public lands' management issues.
And I think that something that Mr. Babbitt said here today
is the bottom line of how that may be achieved. He said we
simply decided to agree to agree, and I think that's what
happened in this exchange. They decided to agree to agree, and
I think that if we could have that attitude between the State
and Federal Government as we perceive now along some hybrid
forms of management that perhaps take in all the interests of
all different stakeholders in a better way than we've done in
the past, we could succeed in bringing to resolution many of
these longstanding and contentious issues. And I hope it does
set a precedent if that's--you know, that's the second part of
your question. I certainly do hope it sets a precedent for
that.
Mr. Judd. Congressman, if I might address this--we in Kane
County have tried as best we can. We're a small, ineffective
county. We don't have a lot of resources and so we have to do
the best we can with what we've got. We've tried as best we can
to become a real true partner in every sense of the word with
the Department of Interior. We've had great treatment working
with Jerry Meredith and Susan Reef, and now Monica Makusic and
her staff; Albert Worth, and Williams, and Jeff Webb, and all
the people that are over there to Secretary Babbitt himself.
We've tried as a partner to arrive at agreements that might
be advantageous to both. I think that what has been tried in
the past, obviously, has not worked. We need to be a little
more creative. We need to drop the barriers that have always
been there, that have apparently satisfied constituents on both
sides of the House. And get away from that and try to approach
the problem, much as Commissioner Johnson has done here in his
testimony this morning, talking to his bill that's there before
the House. I think that's a very creative attitude and really
needs to be lauded.
There are many ways to do this, but they're not going to
happen unless we--as Secretary Babbitt said this morning, and
he and Governor Leavitt--at least they talked. And, I believe
if we could drop our animosities and look forward to solving
the problem, there's a lot of things that can occur.
Thank you.
Mr. Hansen. Commissioner Judd, what would it have meant to
Kane County if Smoky Hollow had been developed?
Mr. Judd. Oh, Congressman, how much time do we have?
Mr. Hansen. Not very much.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Judd. Not very much. I know that. If you can picture
when they closed the saw mill, 700 jobs went away. When they
closed the uranium mines down in the strip, 250 jobs went away.
And in our little county, it isn't like Hill Air Force Base
where you've got thousands of employment, but this would have
provided 900 jobs at least. And all the fallout goodies that
would have come from it; people who work on the truck; and
people who supply the pancakes on Saturday morning; and all
those goodies, and I'd look forward to the opportunity to
follow behind a shopping cart with a housewife and watch her
fill the cart with food for her family. Now I know that sounds
kind of schmaltzy, but, as a Commissioner, that's what I was
really looking forward to, and I was not going to address her
or anybody else.
I was just going to take great pride and watch that cart
begin to fill up and feed kids. That's really what it's about.
The things that would've occurred for our county, at least I
feel in my opinion, would have been a great advantage with very
little risks.
Mr. Hansen. Do you think it could have been done in an
environmentally sound way?
Mr. Judd. I believe, if the Environmental Impact Statement
that the Department of Interior had been working on for a long
time would had been allowed to reach the light to day, it would
have said just that. Yes, I do.
Mr. Hansen. So, in your opinion--what would you say, 900
jobs?
Mr. Judd. Nine hundred jobs at least. That's for the first
phase, Congressman, just the first phase.
Mr. Hansen. How long do you think that would have
continued?
Mr. Judd. Well, long beyond our lifetimes. I'm sure. When I
talked to Dave Shaver and those who were working on providing
the Mining Statement, they've talked about a hundred years.
Mr. Hansen. Commissioner Johnson, I hope everybody realizes
support of local government is critical in the passage of this
legislation and this Committee puts great precedence and
feelings, and we have--as long as I've been here, on how local
government looks as this.
By your statement, apparently they felt pretty good about
it. Do you see a lot of--any dissenting feelings in here or do
you feel this is smooth sailing? Give me your assessment of
that.
Mr. Johnson. Congressman, as I said, I think that
dissention opinions would come from any feeling that we were
not protecting those issues such as mineral lease payments,
PILT payments, and so forth in the manner in which SITLA has
agreed to pay them that holds the counties harmless as these
things are exchanged. In other words, mineral leases that we
are now receiving or that we may receive in the future need to
remain the same after these tradeouts as they would have been,
you know, without the tradeouts. If these things are
consistently addressed in the legislation and hailed in that
form, I think the support would remain and would be consistent
there. If we see that changing to where we lose mineral lease;
we lose PILT, we lose some of these other things that we so
rely on, then we would have deep concerns about this exchange.
Mr. Hansen. Well, let's get into the problem. Some people
benefit, as your county will. Some people get hurt, as
apparently Gar-
field County will, maybe Kane County and others. It's hard to
come at an equity in these things. It's very difficult.
Mr. Johnson. It is. Now, I have to say that I think,
probably, no body is hurt. I wouldn't address it that way. Some
don't gain, and like Kane and Garfield, you have by virtue of
the monument resources that are locked in there. But, they're
locked in there by the monument itself, you know, at this
point. So, to say that they're hurt by this process, I don't
think would be appropriate. I think some don't gain, and others
do.
But, I'd also would like to point out to you the other side
of the gain issue. In Emery County, for example, where we
frequently are looked upon as the place to jump with leases
because of environmental problems in other areas, our what--
when I started as the commissioner, there was a 100 years'
supply of coal. There's now a 20 years' supply of coal. Now
what does Emery County do in 20 years when those coal reserves
that are now being actively pursued by all of this action are
gone, and we have to completely change the economy that we now
depend upon? So there are other, you know, outside issues that
you don't even recognize, but in general, I would tell you that
our support is there for this exchange on behalf of SITLA.
Mr. Hansen. You may have noticed that I mentioned to
Secretary Babbitt about the bill that Emery County has been
pushing and has now been passed by the Subcommittee and it's on
its way to Full Committee. We had asked the Secretary to supply
us with some folks to come up and discuss it. At the hearing,
we thought that was going to happen, but apparently they
decided not to.
As you know, we have substantially watered down that bill,
and in my mind, removed the objections that the administration
really should have. Also, Mr. Hinchey, who had four amendments,
I think basically, three of those were pretty well resolved.
The only thing that, of course, we would lock into would be
that we're not going to try messing around with the Law of the
River and State Water law, and the upper and lower basin
compact in a bill of this nature.
I would ask you if you could feel it in your--had the time
to do it, that you talk to the administration. Explain to them
these things as we're trying to do also, so that they
understand the value in this piece of legislation which to me
has turned into pretty innocuous, but a good piece of
legislation for the State of Utah and should be on a fast track
also.
Mr. Johnson. I agree, sir, and we've certainly would make
every effort to do that. Emery County has tried to address all
the concerns that have been raised since this bill has moved
along, and I think we've done that to a very large degree. And
I think again, here it's just a matter of sitting across the
table and looking at these things. Some of the concerns raised
over roads and Heritage Area management are really non-issues
when we get--sit down at the table and see what Emery County is
already done to address these things. So, I----
Mr. Hansen. Like the Secretary said, you've got to keep
talking.
Mr. Johnson. Yes.
Mr. Hansen. We'll try to do the same thing, but we have a
rather full platter at this time.
The gentleman from Michigan. We have two commissioners from
Utah here on this Land Exchange bill. We also appreciate our
friend from Michigan, Mr. Kildee. Any statement?
Mr. Kildee. I have no statement at this time, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you very much for having the hearing.
Mr. Hansen. The gentleman from California, any questions?
[Laughter.]
Mr. Gallegly. Mr. Chairman, thanks for calling the meeting.
I have no opening statement.
Mr. Hansen. Thank you. I appreciate the commissioner being
here and will excuse you from the table at this time.
We'll turn to our next panel. Mr. David Terry, Director of
Schools in the Institutional Trust Land Administration, Dr.
Scott Bean, State Superintendent of Public Construction, and
Paula Williams-Plant, Legislative Vice President, Utah PTA.
We'll start on this end. Paula Williams-Plant, we'll here
from you.
STATEMENT OF PAULA PLANT, LEGISLATIVE VICE PRESIDENT, UTAH PTA
Ms. Williams-Plant. My name is Paula Plant. Thank you,
Chairman and the Committee, for the opportunity of being here
with you today and to be able to speak on behalf of Utah's
school children. I am the legislative vice president for Utah
PTA, and I have been involved with trust land issues for about
7 years.
Education is one of the highest priorities for Utahns. We
tend to be leaders in performance in education; yet, we spend
less per pupil to educate our children than any other State in
the Nation. Our dedication to education is demonstrated by the
State budget. We spend more percentage-wise to educate our
children than any other State. Half of the annual budget goes
to support public education. It is, however, difficult in our
State to generate adequate revenues from property taxes because
only 21 percent of the State is privately held; 68 percent of
the State belongs to the Federal Government; 7 percent is held
in a trust for the school children.
We experience the same difficulties in our State that many
of you do. We have large class sizes. They are the largest in
the Nation. We have children who attend class in trailers and
on all kinds of rotating schedules, to be able to accommodate
growing populations of children that are larger than the
schools were built to hold. In every secondary school in our
State, fees for textbooks and classroom supplies are passed on
to parents for their responsibility.
Our difficulties are magnified because of the inadequate
revenues that property taxes are able to provide. In Utah we
have to stretch dollars to meet the needs of our school
children.
Utah PTA became involved in reforming the management of the
trust lands about a decade ago. We lobbied for the Act of 1994
which created the School and Institutional Trust Lands
Administration. It's a new independent agency, with the
responsibility of managing the trust solely for the benefit of
the beneficiaries. The primary beneficiaries are the school
children of our State. We are immensely pleased with the
progress that has been made over the past 4 years. We believe
that they are doing a great job, and we believe that their
independence is a key factor in that progress.
We have been able to watch the revenues increase every
single year. The lands are now managed effectively and
efficiently, and for the sole benefit of the beneficiaries.
Utah PTA has been, and continues to be, the watchdog over
the children's trust. We watch closely the activities of the
new agency and the board of trustees, and we are in close
communication with other education groups in our State through
the Utah Public Education Coalition. We have worked together in
the past on education issues and on trust lands issues.
The announcement of the signing between Secretary Babbitt
and the Governor met with enthusiasm at our meeting last week.
It is important to every group in that coalition that everyone
who is associated with the trust meets their fiduciary
responsibility to the children.
Over the past couple of years we have worked very
diligently to try to see that the children in our State are
fairly compensated for the land in the National Monument and
have worked for many years toward a trade out of other Federal
designations. We understand the value of the lands that are to
be traded. We also understand that much of it is speculative so
far as the mineral estate is concerned.
We recognize that this is just a first step and urge you to
do what you can to see that this legislation passes. We also
recognize that there is a social value associated with solitude
and parks, and we are most pleased to be able to offer this
treasure to the United States. This bill will protect both
treasures--our school children and our parks.
We have worked with our State to see that they fill their
fiduciary responsibility to the children. This is the
opportunity for the Federal Government to fulfill theirs. It
was, after all, the Federal Government that granted the trust
lands in the first place, and as grantor of the trust, they
have a responsibility to see that the school trust lands are
used to support public schools. This legislation will allow the
trust to accomplish that purpose.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Plant may be found at end of
hearing.]
Mr. Gallegly. [presiding] Thank you very much, Dr. Plant.
At this time we will yield to Dr. Scott Bean, the State
superintendent of public education. Dr. Bean.
STATEMENT OF SCOTT BEAN, STATE SUPERINTENDENT OF PUBLIC
CONSTRUCTION
Mr. Bean. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Members of the
Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to speak today in
favor of the exchange of school and Federal assets, as provided
in H.R. 3830. Under the agreement signed by Governor Leavitt
and Secretary Babbitt, clear benefits accrue to both the school
children of Utah and the American people, as provisions of this
bill are enacted.
During most of the years since statehood, some Utah school
lands have been captured within national parks, Native American
reservations, and national forests without compensation. They
have provided no support for our schools and our children. For
three generations this abuse of trust has prevailed. There has
been neither political will to exchange the lands nor
compensation for their use.
These captured lands have pitted education against the
environmental community and Federal employees against State
employees, while still leaving the issue of compensation to our
schools unresolved. Utah schools have been placed in the
untenable and unpopular position of developing within national
parks or remaining uncompensated. We chose the higher ground.
Utah school children have gone without some needed books and
other items while supporting national parks for the enjoyment
of the Nation.
Before you today is a proposal to resolve these contentious
land issues satisfactorily for both Utah schools and the
Nation. Now is the time for resolution. This bill will
relinquish surface and mineral title to almost 376,000 acres of
school lands captured within various Federal designations. Our
schools will receive approximately 130,000 acres. We
acknowledge that the Federal Government will have a net gain of
approximately .25 million acres. We recognize the concern that
some may have over this significant increase in Federal
ownership in a State where the Federal Government controls over
two-thirds of the land.
To modify this exchange in any way will disturb the balance
that has been negotiated. We believe that the Utah School and
Institutional Trust Lands Administration, acting on behalf of
the children, has developed a proposal that will compensate us
at an acceptable level. We believe that the Department of
Interior has negotiated a proposal that is fair to the Federal
Treasury and Federal lands.
Therefore, speaking for Utah schools, I assert that now is
the time for resolution, using the presently negotiated
agreement. As State Superintendent of Public Instruction, I
would like to emphasize the following aspects of the proposed
exchange:
First, Utah schools are relinquishing to the Federal
Government all rights to the Nation's largest untapped
energy resource in the Kaipairowits Coal Basin.
Second, the proposed exchange is beneficial to the
Federal Government, especially as compared to other
recently proposed exchanges involving sensitive natural
resources desired for protection by the Federal
Government.
Third, following this exchange, the Federal
Government will have the opportunity to comprehensively
manage national parks and monuments in Utah.
Fourth, all of the school lands proposed for
acquisition are in areas designated for surface and
mineral development, thus avoiding environmentally
protected areas.
Fifth, the education community, as the beneficiary of
the school trust lands, offers its firm support for
this agreement.
And, finally, our support for this proposal is
predicated upon the Federal Government's and the
environmental community's assurance that all mineral
and surface resources acquired in this exchange can be
fully and expeditiously developed with governmental and
environmental support. We will follow the details of
this exchange.
Education would like to commend the entire Utah delegation,
and especially you, Mr. Chairman; also, the Utah School and
Insti-
tutional Trust Lands Administration, and, finally, Governor
Leavitt and Secretary Babbitt for their leadership and courage
in developing this exchange and in resolving these
controversial issues.
We strongly support the finality of the proposed exchange.
The Utah education community has not been well-served by the
expectation of past exchanges that have been frustrated by
politics and disagreement over valuation. If this exchange
takes place as proposed, it will resolve the longstanding
tension among educators, State and Federal agencies,
environmental interests, and will allow Utahns to work together
toward prosperity, economic health, and adequate funding for
education in the next century.
Furthermore, this proposed exchange will allow all
Americans to appreciate and enjoy the beauties of our State
without compromising the education of Utah's children.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Bean may be found at end of
hearing.]
Mr. Hansen. [presiding] Thank you, Dr. Bean.
I'd like to point out for the members of the Committee that
we have with us Andy Mitchell, Canadian Secretary of State for
National Parks. We're grateful that you could be with us, and
we welcome you to join us, if you would like to sit upon the
dais, or whatever you would like to do. We appreciate your
being with us.
I will now turn to Mr. David Terry.
STATEMENT OF DAVID TERRY, DIRECTOR OF SCHOOLS, INSTITUTIONAL
TRUST LAND ADMINISTRATION
Mr. Terry. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the opportunity to
testify today. I am David Terry. I'm the director of the School
and Institutional Trust Lands Administration for the State of
Utah.
As Ms. Plant referred to us, we were created in 1994 as an
independent agency of the Utah State government for the purpose
of managing trust lands for the benefit of education and other
public institutions. These lands were granted to us at
statehood, similar to grants made to other States for
educational trusts.
I'm pleased to express my unconditional support for H.R.
3830. The May 8th, 1998 agreement between the Secretary and the
Governor is truly historic. Many of our predecessors had worked
on this problem.
Before you I believe you have three maps, letter-size maps.
The top map illustrates the situation of the trust lands within
Utah at the time of the grant at statehood, but Congress had no
idea of the value or potential for value of lands within the
State of Utah, and they made the grant in a four-section-per-
township grant across the entire State. That accounts for the
scattered nature of our ownership, which is all of the blue
lands. The yellow lands are Bureau of Land Management-
controlled lands. So you can see that we are partners with the
United States in the management of the lands within our State.
The second map that you have--or I should say, on that
first map as well, you'll notice some darker magenta colors.
Those are the national parks. Arches National Park and Capital
Reef National Park have trust lands within those two national
parks, and that's the issue that's been going on for some 50 or
60 years--as to how to manage those lands within the national
treasures.
On the second map, you'll see enumerated the description of
the lands that are involved within H.R. 3830. At the north end
of the map, the Beaver Mountain Ski Resort is land that would
come to the State of Utah from the United States. Immediately
adjacent to that is some State land that would go to the
national forests. But we'll also pick up Uintah County, the
Blue Mountain telecommunications site, some tarsands properties
along Asphalt Ridge, some oil and gas properties in Duchesne
County, and additional tarsands properties in Uintah County;
coal properties in the Westridge Coal Tract. All of the
magenta-colored tracts, we will acquire surface and mineral
estate. On the dark blue tracts, the Dugout Canyon, Mill Fork,
Cottonwood, North Horn, and Muddy Track, we will only acquire
the minerals estate, and we will be able to mine the coal. In
Millard County, we'll acquire a limestone property, and then
we'll acquire surface tracts at Hatch and Garfield County, at
Warner Valley and Washington County, and the Big Water Tract,
about 35,000 acres, in Kane County.
The lands that we're giving up are also illustrated here.
Within the National Monument, the school sections have been
changed from blue to more of a red color, and all of those
lands will be deeded to the United States, along with the lands
in the Navajo Reservation, the Glen Canyon National Recreation
Area, Capital Reef National Park, Arches National Park,
Dinosaur National Monument, Flaming Gorge Recreation Area,
national forest lands, and the Goshute Reservation.
Then, finally, the third map you have illustrates the
condition of land status following the conclusion of Public Law
103 land exchange as amended to include the Grand Staircase,
that agreement signed on May the 8th. So, as you can see on
this map, there will be no trust lands within any of the
national parks or national monuments or Native American
reservations within the State of Utah, and we will acquire the
large blocks that are referred to on the other map.
I would also like to just briefly mention the methodology.
As Secretary Babbitt explained more articulately than I can,
the methodology was to take similar assets on Federal land and
compare those with similar assets on State land, coal for coal,
and then take the sum of the single parts and negotiate a total
value. So the negotiators worked very hard to understand the
values of our lands as well as the values of the Federal lands
that we're acquiring.
The last thing that I'd like to say is I would like to
thank Commissioner Ray Powell from New Mexico, who is the
president of the Western States Land Commissioners Association,
and Commissioner Powell has submitted written testimony as well
supporting this exchange, and we believe it is a first step to
solving public land issues in Utah, as well as other western
States.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Terry may be found at end of
hearing.]
Mr. Hansen. Thank you very much, Mr. Terry. We appreciate
your comments.
This is really kind of disappointing to me. I haven't had
anybody oppose this. This kind of takes the fun out of this
whole meeting, if I may say so.
[Laughter.]
The gentleman from American Samoa.
Mr. Faleomavaega. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The testimonies that were borne this morning from Ms. Plant
and Mr. Bean, it sounded like you were giving a lukewarm
support for this legislation. Am I wrong in hearing your
testimony--or maybe, maybe not? Maybe there's still some faulty
areas in this proposed bill?
Mr. Bean. Well, no, Representative. What you hear is years
of frustration, but I really do think that this proposal,
negotiated by Secretary Babbitt and Governor Leavitt, is really
a positive proposal. It ends the controversy, and it will
definitely be of benefit financially for the school children in
Utah. There is no question about that.
But I think you do--in the testimony that I did give, it
does reflect some frustration with probably 40 or 50 years when
we received no compensation whatever for all of those hundreds
of thousands of acres that were contained within those parks
and monuments, and really a great reluctance on the part of the
bureaucracy here to do anything about that.
I've had people--I should say this is secondhand, but
Federal employees express the idea that it didn't make any
difference if the lands were in parks and monuments, you know;
we couldn't do anything with them anyway. Well, we really could
have done something with it, and we could have developed lands
within parks and monuments, but I don't think that would have
been of benefit to the American people. That's why I say I
think that the State has chosen the higher ground in those
situations.
Mr. Faleomavaega. So I guess it comes down to the fact that
from both previous Democratic and Republican administrations
the matter has still not been resolved until this
administration. I think Secretary Babbitt could not have stated
it better when he was specifically instructed by President
Clinton to see to it that this matter be resolved, and I am
very happy that Governor Leavitt's presence verified that
commitment to see that the problem now has finally been
resolved.
And this does not take away the commitment as well that the
chairman has made for all these years in trying to resolve it,
and that's why I suggested, Mr. Chairman, that we ought to have
the Secretary of the Interior do these negotiations from now
on, and not leave it to his subordinates, because that seems to
be the problem that we have every time we have hearings here.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Hansen. Thank you.
The gentleman from Utah, Mr. Cook.
Mr. Cook. Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I certainly want to commend the panel on a very excellent
presentation on the effects of this agreement on education. Of
course, one of the biggest issues in Utah education, and I
think something that has broad and deep support from all
segments of Utah, is the need to reduce class size.
Perhaps, Dr. Bean, maybe you could give us some assessment.
This agreement, I think one of the reasons it's supported so
strongly is there's real hard dollars presented that would come
very early. We've talked about up to a billion dollars, and we
don't know how accurate that may be, but we certainly know that
at least $50 to $60 million should come into Utah's school
system very quickly upon ratification of this agreement.
Could you give us some indication of what that would mean
in terms of reduction of class size in the State of Utah?
Mr. Bean. Well, Representative, I really appreciate the
question. The money will go into the permanent trust fund, and
so the potential for funding Utah schools comes not necessarily
from the initial investment, which will yield on the interest
basis, and the interest is what we can use. We'll probably get
from that maybe $5 or $6 million a year, and I think we'll get
somewhere in that vicinity. But the potential on the mineral
part of this and the other exchanges for the value of the land
that is being exchanged has much, much higher potential.
I think David Terry might be able to comment on that, too,
because they've looked at this, and we've looked at this, too,
with the Governor's staff, and we feel like it really does have
huge potential for bringing funds in--not next year, but in a
10-to-15-year period it has huge potential.
Mr. Cook. I know that the President, in his State of the
Union address this year, also in his budget proposals in front
of Congress, has talked about something over $1 billion
nationwide program that I think would translate to about $4.5
or $5 million for Utah. I have actually sent communication to
the administration that I don't think Utah is getting its fair
share of that whole thing.
But how would you compare this agreement, for example, on
exchange of trust lands with the President's proposal that he
outlined generally for all States?
Mr. Bean. Well, in the President's proposal we could reduce
class size in Utah by fewer than one-third student per
classroom on the average. So it doesn't have much effect, and
you're right, on the formula used on that, it still, in our
view, while we have 1 percent of the school children in the
Nation, we get about half a percent or less under that
proposal. So does that have much impact? No, it doesn't in
Utah.
In a comparative sense, this proposal could probably reduce
class size in Utah over the years. If we take it 30 years down
the road, and we used it for class size reduction only, I would
estimate that we could probably reduce class size in the State
maybe five to six students per classroom. So this has a much
more--well, it's a huge impact on the State.
Mr. Cook. Your estimate would indicate 15 to 18 times over
the other program.
Mr. Bean. Well, I don't think there's any question--or
more.
Mr. Cook. Thank you.
Mr. Hansen. I thank the gentleman.
I think this is something that Congress can do for
education in Utah. Contrary to popular belief, Congress doesn't
have as much to do with education as the State legislature has.
I know when I was speaker of the house, 92 percent of all the
money came from local areas, and we get involved in Title 9 and
a few other things, and here's a chance to help out in a very
worthy cause.
I want to thank the three members of the panel who are
before us for your excellent testimony. I am glad to see that
there's no objection. This is the first bill that we have
looked at for years and years that someone hasn't come on the
other side and given us a lot of reasons why we should not pass
it. So while I'm still in shock, let's end this meeting, OK?
Thank you for coming.
[Whereupon, at 10:44 a.m., the Subcommittee adjourned
subject to the call of the Chair.]
[Additional material submitted for the record follows.]
Statement of Joe Judd on behalf of Kane County, Utah
Mr. Chairman, and members of the Subcommittee, I would like
to express my great appreciation to you, on behalf of the
Commissioners and people of Kane County, for allowing me to
testify regarding H.R. 3830--a bill to provide for the exchange
of lands within the State of Utah.
Let me begin by saying that we in no way wish to interfere
with the agreement that has been negotiated between the State
of Utah and Department of Interior. But at the same time, we
would like to address what we believe is the omission of Kane
County in the positive consequences of the exchange.
The exchange, in effect, transfers the value of mineral and
energy resources out of Kane County to other areas of the
state. These are values that were critical to the future
development of the economy and communities of Kane County. In
return, we are faced with costs and responsibilities related to
the Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument. Although we
may have an increase in tourism, we are being asked to trade
high income primary wage-eamer jobs for lower paying second-
income jobs in the tourist industry. And still, we have been
going forward with resignation, trying to do the best we can
with the cards we have been dealt. But, Mr. Chairman, I think
the disparity should be more than obvious to everyone.
It is our understanding that there will be royalties paid
from resource development on BLM lands in some of these
exchange areas. One-half of the royalty will be going to the
State of Utah and the other half going to the Federal Treasury.
It is our proposal that a significant portion of the Federal
share go to the protection of monument resources and the
mitigation of monument impacts on Kane County and local
governments.
We believe this could be implemented legislatively and not
affect the negotiated agreement. The Federal royalties could be
deposited in a fund for the county; a mechanism could be
developed for the release of those funds based on criteria and
factors to be spelled out in the bill or developed with the
Department of Interior. The Secretary has recognized the
appropriateness and the utility of the county role, as has the
Congress through appropriations. This fund would decrease the
dependency on annual appropriations.
I am not here today representing Garfield County, but they
may have similar concerns and may wish to participate or share
in a fund. If that is the case, I am sure that some fair and
proportional formula could be devised. We do not have specific
language to offer at this time, but if the Committee is
receptive to the general proposal, we would be happy to develop
language with the Committee.
Thank you again for the opportunity to testify on behalf of
Kane County.
------
Statement of Paula M. Plant, Legislative Vice-President, Utah State PTA
I am Paula M. Plant, Legislative Vice-President of Utah
PTA. I have been involved in trust lands issues for seven
years.
Education is one of the highest priorities for Utahns. We
are among the leaders in performance in education, but we are
among the lowest in per-pupil expenditures in the nation. We
spend a greater percentage of the total state budget on
education than any other state. Half of the annual budget goes
to support public education. It is difficult to generate
revenue for schools from property tax because only 21 percent
of the state is privately held. The Federal Government owns 68
percent of the lands, and 7 percent belongs to the school
trust. These trust lands were given to the state at Statehood,
as the Governor has stated, for the benefit of the
schoolchildren.
We experience the same difficulties as other states across
the country. We have large classes, with growing populations of
students attending school in trailers and on rotating schedules
to accommodate larger enrollments than schools were built to
hold. Classroom supply expenses and textbook fees are passed
along to parents in every secondary school in the state. Our
difficulties are magnified because of the inadequate revenue
stream property taxes provide. In Utah, we stretch dollars to
meet the needs of our children. Every nickel counts!
Utah PTA became involved in reforming the management of the
school trust lands about a decade ago. Utah PTA lobbied for the
Act of 1994 which created the School and Institutional Trust
Lands Administration, a new independent state agency with the
responsibility of managing the trust solely for the benefit of
the beneficiaries. The primary beneficiaries are Utah's
schoolchildren.
We are immensely pleased about the progress the trust lands
agency has made and believe the independence of the agency has
been a key factor in the positive results over the past four
years. They are doing a great job. The total asset values of
the trust have increased more than 10 times since 1983. Utah's
trust lands are now managed efficiently and effectively for the
benefit of our school. We believe these results speak for
themselves.
Utah PTA has been and continues to be the watchdog over our
children's trust. We watch closely the activities of the agency
and the Board of Trustees. We are in constant communication
with the other education groups in Utah through the Utah State
Public Education Coalition. We have worked together in the past
on school trust issues. The initial announcement of the
agreement between Governor Leavitt and Secretary Babbitt met
with enthusiasm in our meeting last week. It is important to us
that the fiduciary duties of all involved with the trust are
met. We have been involved with the effort to trade the land
out of Federal reservations in our state and have worked over
the past two years toward fair compensation for our
schoolchildren for the trust lands captured within the
monument. We understand the value of the land in this proposed
land trade. We also understand that much of the trade is
speculative where the mineral estate is concerned.
Recognizing that the agreement signed by Governor Leavitt
and Secretary Babbitt is only a first step in the process of
this kind of exchange, we are enthusiastic and optimistic about
the benefit this exchange could have for the schoolchildren of
our state. We also recognize the social value of solitude and
parks and are pleased that Utah has the opportunity to offer
these treasures to the United States. This bill will protect
both treasures--our school and our parks.
We have worked with our own state to see they fulfill their
fiduciary responsibility to the schoolchildren. This is the
opportunity for the Federal Government to fulfill theirs. The
trust was established originally by the Federal Government to
provide education to our children. As grantor of this trust in
a solemn compact, the United States is also bound by a duty to
ensure the school trust lands are used to support the public
schools. This historic trade will allow the trust to accomplish
that purpose.
Thank you.
WHEREAS, At statehood the Federal Government owned well over 80
percent of the land in the new State of Utah; and
WHEREAS, The State agreed not to tax Federal land; and
WHEREAS, Primary support for the schools at that time came
through the property tax; and
WHEREAS, The Federal Government then granted four, one square
mile sections in every thirty-six square mile township, to be
held in trust for the support of the public schools; and
WHEREAS, The School Land Trust retains some 3.6 million acres
of surface land and 4.4 million acres of underground mineral
rights; and
WHEREAS, The Utah Legislature has created the School and
Institutional Trust Land Administration, an independent agency,
to manage these school lands for the sole benefit of Utah
public schools, with strict adherence to their trust
obligations; and
WHEREAS, Utah PTA and its constituent organizations have been
involved in educating elected officials in Utah and nationally
about school trust lands and their fiduciary responsibility to
the trust. They have advocated for recent changes in the
management and operation of the trust which has resulted in
increased revenues. They continue to be an important voice in
ensuring that the school children of Utah are fairly dealt with
in relation to the trust; therefore be it
Resolved, That the Utah PTA encourage the Governor,
Legislature, the State Treasurer, the Attomey General, the
School and Institutional Trust Land Administration and other
State officials to take all necessary steps to manage the
School Trust Lands in accordance with Trust duties and
principles, including undivided loyalty to the beneficiaries, a
duty to make trust property productive, a duty to keep and
render accounts, and a duty to exercise prudence and skill in
administering the trust, thereby obtaining much-needed revenue
for Utah's schools; and be it further
Resolved, That the Utah PTA work to encourage Federal and State
officials to fulfill their responsibilities under the Enabling
Act by assisting the State in proper management of school trust
lands for their intended purpose, to support schools. In cases
where management for Trust purposes would conflict with other
important purposes, such as protection of archaeological,
aesthetic, or other environmental or cultural resources, that
the Federal Government purchase, or trade the affected lands
for other lands of comparable value; and be it further
Resolved, That any such trade or purchase be for the full value
of the Trust Lands, with an appropriate additional amount to
compensate the School Trust for losses incurred due to failure
by the Federal Government to permit reasonable development of
the Trust Lands in question; and be it further
Resolved, That the leadership of the Utah PTA be directed to
inform appropriate State and Federal officials of this
resolution and work to accomplish its objectives.
------
Statement of Dr. Scott W. Bean, State of Utah
Thank you for the opportunity to speak today in favor of
the exchange of school and Federal assets as provided in H.R.
3830. Under the Agreement signed by Governor Leavitt and
Secretary Babbitt, clear benefits will accrue to both the
schools of Utah and the American people as the provisions of
this bill are enacted.
During most of the years since statehood, Utah school lands
have been captured within National Parks, Native American
reservations, and National Forests without compensation. They
have provided no support for our schools and our children. For
three generations this abuse of trust has prevailed. There has
been neither political will to exchange the lands nor
compensation for their use. These captured school lands have
pitted education against the environment, Federal employees
against state employees, while still leaving the issue of
compensation to our schools unresolved. Utah schools have been
placed in the untenable and unpopular position of developing
within the National Parks or remaining uncompensated. We chose
the higher ground. Utah school children have gone without books
while supporting National Parks for the enjoyment of the
nation. Before you today, is a proposal to resolve these
contentious land issues satisfactorily for both the schools and
the nation. Now is the time for resolution.
This bill will relinquish surface and mineral title to
almost 376,000 acres of school lands captured within various
Federal designations. Our schools will receive approximately
130,000 acres. We acknowledge that the Federal Government will
have a net gain of approximately one-quarter of a million
acres. We recognize the concern that some may have over this
significant increase in Federal ownership in a state where the
Federal Government controls over two-thirds of the land.
To modify this exchange in any way will disturb the
delicate balance that has been negotiated. We believe that the
School and Institutional Trust Lands Administration, acting on
behalf of the children, has developed a proposal that will
compensate us at an acceptable level. We believe that the
Department of Interior has negotiated a proposal that is fair
to the Federal Treasury and Federal lands. Therefore, speaking
for Utah schools, I assert that now is the time for resolution
using the presently negotiated agreement.
As the State Superintendent of Public Instruction, I would
like to emphasize the following aspects of the proposed
exchange:
<bullet> Utah schools are relinquishing to the Federal
Government all rights to the nation's largest untapped energy
resource in the Kaipairowits Coal Basin.
<bullet> This proposed exchange is beneficial to the Federal
Government especially as compared to other recently proposed
exchanges involving sensitive natural resources desired for
protection by the Federal Government. Other exchanges have
offered compensation at multiples of this level for less than 1
percent of the lands identified in this exchange. These other
exchanges would benefit private interests while this exchange
benefits the public schools.
<bullet> Following this exchange, the Federal Government will
have the opportunity to comprehensively manage our National
Parks and Monuments.
<bullet> All of the school lands proposed for acquisition are
in areas designated for surface and mineral development, thus
avoiding environmentally protected areas.
<bullet> The education community, as the beneficiary of the
school trust lands, offers its firm support to this Agreement
as long as our representatives are included in all discussions
and negotiations leading to a successful conclusion to this
advantageous exchange.
<bullet> Our support for this proposal is conditioned upon the
Federal Government's and the environmental community's
assurances that all mineral and surface resources acquired in
this exchange can be fully and expeditiously developed with
governmental and environmental support.
We will follow the tedious details of this exchange. It is
significant to note where the schools receive surface and mineral
interests as opposed to only a determinable fee interest in speculative
coal.
Education would like to commend the entire Utah delegation, the
School and Institutional Trust Lands Administration, our governor and
his staff, and Secretary Babbitt for the leadership and courage they
have shown in developing this exchange and in resolving these
controversial issues.
We strongly applaud the finality of this proposed exchange. The
Utah education community has not been well served by the expectation of
past exchanges that have been frustrated by politics and disagreement
over valuation. If this exchange takes place as proposed, it will
resolve the long standing tension among educators, state and Federal
agencies, and environmental interests and allow Utahns to work together
toward prosperity, economic health and adequate funding for education
in the next century.
Furthermore, this proposed exchange will allow all Americans to
appreciate and enjoy the beauties of our great state without
compromising the education of Utah's children.
______
Statement of David T. Terry, Director, Utah School and Institutional
Trust Lands Administration
Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. My name is
David T. Terry, and I am the director of the Utah School and
Institutional Trust Lands Administration (the ``Trust Lands
Administration''). The Trust Lands Administration is an
independent state agency that manages more than 3.7 million
acres of land within Utah dedicated to the financial support of
public education.
It is my pleasure today to express my unconditional support
for H.R. 3830. The May 8, 1998 Agreement between Utah Governor
Michael O. Leavitt and Secretary of the Interior Bruce Babbitt,
which H.R. 3830 would implement, is truly historic. My
predecessors have been grappling with the issue of state
inholdings in Utah's national parks, monuments, forests and
Indian reservations for many decades. Some of you on the
Committee will remember former Utah Governor Scott Matheson's
efforts in the 1980s to solve the state inholdings issue once
and for all with a statewide exchange known as Project BOLD.
Many others have tried as well. Until May 8, all of these
efforts had failed.
If enacted, H.R. 3830 will resolve--fully, fairly, and
finally)--the problem created by over 375,000 acres of school
trust lands within such nationally-recognized areas as Arches
National Park, Dinosaur National Monument, the Glen Canyon
National Recreation Area, and of course the Grand Staircase-
Escalante National Monument. The inholdings problem has been a
real one for both the State of Utah and the United States. Our
agency has been charged--by Congress--with managing state
school trust lands for the financial benefit of Utah's public
education system. Yet the development of school trust lands
within our national parks and forests is directly at odds with
the conservation purposes for which the surrounding Federal
lands were set aside. The May 8 agreement will allow our agency
to do what it does best--make money for our public schools--
while eliminating this substantial source of development
pressure from the parks.
It is appropriate to focus in more detail on the benefits
of H.R. 3830, both for the United States and the State of Utah:
1. The Negotiated Agreement Will Save Millions in Transaction
Costs and Litigation Risk
When Congress passed Public Law 103-93 in 1993, it provided
for an appraisal-based process for valuing the state trust
inholdings within the parks and forests. This process quickly
broke down, for several reasons. First, the sheer magnitude of
the lands involved made appraisals, cultural resources reviews,
and mineral evaluations expensive and time-consuming for both
parties. Second, the State and the United States have
profoundly disagreed on how to value lands with nationally-
significant natural characteristics, such as natural arches or
ancient Indian ruins. These disagreements resulted in
litigation filed last year by the State seeking (as authorized
by Public Law 103-93) to obtain a judicial determination of
value.
As a result of our trial preparations in the Public Law
103-93 litigation, our agency was confident that it could
obtain a judicial determination that the value of its lands was
substantially higher than the $50 million cash payment provided
by the May 8 agreement, and that there was little likelihood
that value would be determined to be less than that amount. At
the same time, litigation is expensive, time-consuming, and
risky for all involved. Since Public Law 103-93, the State has
spent over $3.5 million on consultants and lawyers, with more
expenses to come. We estimate that the costs to the United
States in out-of-pocket costs and staff time have been and
would continue to be equally high. Governor Leavitt and
Secretary Babbitt's agreement, if ratified by Congress, will
save both the State and the United States millions of dollars
over the next several years in expenses, and will eliminate
millions more in litigation risk.
In addition, the $50 million payment will be deposited
immediately into the State's Permanent School Fund, as a
permanent endowment for Utah's schools. Since litigation over
value would take several years, the Agreement will instead
permit Utah to receive investment returns during that interval.
Those portions of the Agreement dealing with the Grand
Staircase-Escalante National Monument will also permit the
United States and the State to avoid substantial transaction
and litigation costs. My agency manages 337 tracts within the
Monument, totaling over 176,000 acres of fee lands, and an
additional 24,000 acres of mineral estate. In the absence of
agreement on values, both the State and the United States would
find themselves repeating the expenses associated with the
Public Law 103-93 process, at a cost of millions of dollars.
Litigation between my agency and the United States concerning
the creation of the Monument would continue as well; trial had
been set to begin on March 18 of next year, with intensive
discovery disputes already beginning. Instead, with the May 8
agreement, we have replaced acrimony with agreement, and
permitted both parties to put their time and resources to more
productive use.
2. The Agreement Is Fair and Provides Equal Value for Both
Sides
The Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument contains
some of the largest untapped energy and mineral resources in
the United States. The state trust lands in the Monument are
estimated by the U.S. Geologic Survey and other scientific
authorities to contain 876 million tons of recoverable coal, a
trillion cubic feet of natural gas in coal seams, and varied
other resources such as tar sands, uranium, and titanium. At
the current time, the Trust Lands Administration has over
100,000 acres in the Monument under lease for exploration/
extraction of various minerals. At the time the Monument was
created, Andalex Resources was in the final stages of
permitting its Smoky Hollow mine, and had expressed intent in
writing to acquire leases for thousands of additional acres of
trust lands, with an anticipated bonus bid to the State of more
than $4 million, plus royalties from coal production from
existing and new coal leases. A consortium of oil and gas firms
was planning for a large coalbed methane extraction project,
and had leased some 35,000 acres of trust lands for that
project. These were not hypothetical projects; reputable and
well-capitalized companies were spending dollars ``on the
ground'' to develop these resources. Interest from the mineral
industry has continued since the Monument designation; the
Trust Lands Administration has recently received lease
applications for 115,000 additional acres of oil and gas and
titanium lands. Similarly, my agency has received many
expressions of interest in purchasing or leasing school trust
lands within the Monument for recreational and commercial use,
although we have chosen not to pursue such transactions while
an exchange seemed possible.
As President Clinton stated at the time of the Monument
declaration, the Federal Government has made the determination
that mineral development of this nature is incompatible with
preservation of the scientific and cultural resources the
Monument was designed to preserve. At the same time, he
promised that Utah's schoolchildren--the beneficiaries of the
school trust lands in the Monument--would not be harmed by the
loss of their lands and resources, and that all reasonable
differences in valuation would be resolved in their favor. The
May 8 Agreement fulfils that promise in a manner that is fair
both to the school trust and the taxpayers of the United
States.
The Agreement provides that Federal lands containing
specific types of resources--coal, coalbed methane, oil and
gas, tar sands, and hard minerals--will be transferred to the
State in exchange for similar lands and resources of
substantially equivalent value found on trust lands in the
Monument. None of the lands being acquired by the State are
currently in production, and most are unleased (the United
States will be acquiring more leased lands than it is giving
up). In general, the State is giving up substantially greater
quantities of resources than it is acquiring. However, by
acquiring larger blocks of lands, the State gains from being
able to obtain more effective management control of resource
development, which has substantial, although intangible,
economic value.
The Agreement does not attempt to place a specific dollar
value on these lands and resources is our belief from long
experience that so many variable assumptions are required to
value speculative mineral properties such as those involved on
both sides of the exchange that any specific dollar number
would be no better than guesswork. The old joke that it is
possible to line up all the economists in the world and never
reach a conclusion applies to mineral valuation consultants as
well. That is not to say that both the State and the Department
of Interior did not carefully ana-
lyze voluminous resource data, market analyses, and other
pertinent information in the course of their negotiations. Both
sides did so in the course of the spirited negotiations that
led to the agreement, and there was substantial ``give and
take'' by each side's technical experts on the equivalence of
particular tracts and resources. We are confident that, as a
whole, the May 8 Agreement reflects a transaction that is fair
to both sides, and that provides each side with value
substantially equivalent to the value it is relinquishing.
3. There Are Major Intangible Benefits from Completing This
Exchange.
The Trust Lands Administration takes its fiduciary duty of
providing financial support to Utah's schools seriously. At the
same time, we are citizens as well, who enjoy and appreciate
our state's beautiful national parks, forests, and wild areas.
The existence for many years of school trust lands within these
areas has been a great frustration to us, as fulfilment of our
legal duty to provide revenue to the schools--which would
require sale or development of these lands--is in direct
opposition to preservation of the lands. We have so far taken
the high road, and for many years sought an exchange such as
the one that is now before the Committee, rather than actively
developing our sensitive lands. In future years, that might not
have proved to be the case. H.R. 3830 offers the opportunity
for the United States to end the threat of potential
development within these beautiful areas, and to have perpetual
and unified management of the lands for the purposes for which
they were set aside. If any of the Committee has any questions
about this particular issue, you need only look at the land
ownership maps that are part of the record. The archaic
checkerboard of state sections within the Monument and parks
makes effective management difficult if not impossible. H.R.
3830 offers the opportunity to solve this problem once and for
all.
In conclusion, I would suggest that one other intangible,
but hugely important, benefit can come from the implementation
of the May 8 Agreement--trust. The lingering problem of the
Public Law 103-93 lands, the surprise designation of the Grand
Staircase-Escalante National Monument, and the litigation that
has unsurprisingly followed, created an atmosphere of distrust
between the State and the Department of Interior that is
difficult to describe. In recent months, and culminating in the
Agreement, that atmosphere of distrust has been replaced with a
new spirit of communication and cooperation. A number of
members of the Committee have helped with this pleasant
change--the Trust Lands Administration would particularly thank
Representatives Cannon, Hinchey and others for their efforts
last year in requesting the Department of Interior to consider
a negotiated solution, which has now occurred. If H.R. 3830 is
passed, we will have resolved one of the thorniest western
public lands issues, and set the stage for resolving other
disputed issues through dialogue rather than public dispute.
On behalf of the Utah School and Institutional Trust Lands
Administration, I urge the Committee and Congress to enact H.R.
3830 speedily and without encumbrance. Again, thank you for the
opportunity to testify today.
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