<DOC> [108 Senate Hearings] [From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access] [DOCID: f:96107.wais] S. Hrg. 108-624 TOOLS TO FIGHT TERRORISM: SUBPOENA AUTHORITY AND PRETRIAL DETENTION OF TERRORISTS ======================================================================= HEARING before the SUBCOMMITTEE ON TERRORISM, TECHNOLOGY AND HOMELAND SECURITY of the COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY UNITED STATES SENATE ONE HUNDRED EIGHTH CONGRESS SECOND SESSION __________ JUNE 22, 2004 __________ Serial No. J-108-83 __________ Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 96-107 WASHINGTON : DC ____________________________________________________________________________ For Sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512-1800; (202) 512ÿ091800 Fax: (202) 512ÿ092250 Mail: Stop SSOP, Washington, DC 20402ÿ090001 COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY ORRIN G. HATCH, Utah, Chairman CHARLES E. GRASSLEY, Iowa PATRICK J. LEAHY, Vermont ARLEN SPECTER, Pennsylvania EDWARD M. KENNEDY, Massachusetts JON KYL, Arizona JOSEPH R. BIDEN, Jr., Delaware MIKE DeWINE, Ohio HERBERT KOHL, Wisconsin JEFF SESSIONS, Alabama DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina RUSSELL D. FEINGOLD, Wisconsin LARRY E. CRAIG, Idaho CHARLES E. SCHUMER, New York SAXBY CHAMBLISS, Georgia RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois JOHN CORNYN, Texas JOHN EDWARDS, North Carolina Bruce Artim, Chief Counsel and Staff Director Bruce A. Cohen, Democratic Chief Counsel and Staff Director ------ Subcommittee on Terrorism, Technology and Homeland Security JON KYL, Arizona, Chairman ORRIN G. HATCH, Utah DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California ARLEN SPECTER, Pennsylvania EDWARD M. KENNEDY, Massachusetts MIKE DeWINE, Ohio JOSEPH R. BIDEN, Jr., Delaware JEFF SESSIONS, Alabama HERBERT KOHL, Wisconsin SAXBY CHAMBLISS, Georgia JOHN EDWARDS, North Carolina Stephen Higgins, Majority Chief Counsel David Hantman, Democratic Chief Counsel C O N T E N T S ---------- STATEMENTS OF COMMITTEE MEMBERS Page Feingold, Hon. Russell D., a U.S. Senator from the State of Wisconsin...................................................... 3 prepared statement........................................... 47 Hatch, Hon. Orrin G., a U.S. Senator from the State of Utah, prepared statement............................................. 50 Kyl, Hon. Jon, a U.S. Senator from the State of Arizona.......... 1 prepared statement and attachments........................... 51 Leahy, Hon. Patrick J., a U.S. Senator from the State of Vermont, prepared statement............................................. 73 WITNESSES Battle, Michael, U.S. Attorney, Western District of New York, Buffalo, New York.............................................. 7 Brand, Rachel, Principal Deputy Assistant Attorney General, Office of Legal Policy, U.S. Department of Justice, Washington, D.C............................................................ 5 Robinson, James K., Former Assistant Attorney General, Criminal Division, Department of Justice, Washington, D.C............... 10 SUBMISSIONS FOR THE RECORD American Civil Liberties Union, Timothy H. Edgar, Legislative Counsel, prepared statement.................................... 29 Battle, Michael, U.S. Attorney, Western District of New York, Buffalo, New York, prepared statement.......................... 35 Brand, Rachel, Principal Deputy Assistant Attorney General, Office of Legal Policy, U.S. Department of Justice, Washington, D.C., prepared statement....................................... 41 Robinson, James K., Former Assistant Attorney General, Criminal Division, Department of Justice, Washington, D.C., prepared statement...................................................... 76 TOOLS TO FIGHT TERRORISM: SUBPOENA AUTHORITY AND PRETRIAL DETENTION OF TERRORISTS ---------- TUESDAY, JUNE 22, 2004 United States Senate, Subcommittee on Terrorism, Technology and Homeland Security, of the Committee on the Judiciary, Washington, DC. The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:42 p.m., in room SD-226, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Jon Kyl, Chairman of the Subcommittee, presiding. Present: Senators Kyl and Feingold. Chairman Kyl. The Subcommittee on Terrorism, Technology and Homeland Security will come to order. I am going to filibuster for just a moment to give Senator Feingold an opportunity to arrive. It will give me a chance to apologize to everyone for our late start. Something very amazing happened today. The Senate official photograph was to be taken at 2:15, and for some reason that I can't fathom not everybody showed up at exactly 2:15 for that photograph. Senators were actually late to have their picture taken. Now, I must note that most of them were on the other side of the aisle, and maybe Senator Feingold can explain why Senators would actually be late for an opportunity for their photograph to be taken. But in any event, on behalf of both of us, I apologize for keeping you all waiting and we will be able to begin the hearing now. If you would like any rebuttal to that, Senator Feingold, you are welcome. Otherwise, I will make my opening remarks. Senator Feingold. I am non-plused by the partisan attack. [Laughter.] OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JON KYL, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF ARIZONA Chairman Kyl. Well, I appreciate our witnesses being here today and we do have a very important subject for discussion. I am going to describe our panel to those of you who are here because it is an exceptionally qualified panel of experts to talk about the problems that we are going to be talking about. We are going to be focusing today on the general question of what additional tools the Department of Justice might need in order to best prosecute this war on terror in which we are all involved and which we all want to help. In particular, today's hearing will focus on legislation that would extend direct subpoena authority to the FBI for anti-terrorism investigations and a bill that would add terrorism offenses to the list of crimes that are subject to a statutory presumption of no bail. Now, let me introduce these witnesses so you will know what kind of expertise we have. Rachel Brand is the Principal Deputy Assistant Attorney General in the Office of Legal Policy of the United States Department of Justice. Ms. Brand previously served as an associate counsel to the President in the White House, and prior to that as an associate with the law firm of Cooper, Carven and Rosenthal. She has also served as a law clerk to U.S. Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy and to Massachusetts Supreme Court Justice Charles Freed. Michael Battle is the United States Attorney for the Western District of New York. Prior to his current post, Mr. Battle served as Erie County family court judge in Buffalo, New York. He also previously has served as the assistant attorney general in charge of the Eighth Judicial Circuit with the New York Attorney General's office and as an assistant public defender in the Federal Public Defender's office for the Western District of New York. Finally, Mr. Battle also served 7 years as Assistant U.S. Attorney for the Western District of New York. James K. Robinson currently is a member of the law firm of Cadwalader, Wickersham and Taft here in Washington, D.C. From 1998 to 2001, Mr. Robinson was the Assistant Attorney General of the United States Department of Justice's Criminal Division. Mr. Robinson has also served as a dean and professor of law at Wayne State University Law School, as the United States Attorney for the Eastern District of Michigan, and as Chairman of the Michigan Supreme Court Committee on Rules of Evidence. He is a coauthor of the recently published Courtroom Handbook on Michigan Evidence. I want to thank all of you for being here today, and again we really appreciate having your expertise on these issues. Let me just make a brief comment in opening and then put the remainder of my statement in the record. I will note at this point that, without objection, any member statements will be included in the record if they would like to submit them. We all are aware of the fact that the Justice Department is in the front of this war on terror here in the United States. It deserves a lot of praise for work that has been done since September 11. Worldwide, more than half of al Qaeda's senior leadership has been captured or killed. More than 3,000 al Qaeda operatives have been incapacitated. Within the United States, four different terrorist cells have been broken up--cells in Buffalo, Detroit, Seattle and Portland. 284 individuals have been criminally charged to date, and 149 have been convicted or pleaded guilty, including shoe bomber Richard Reid, six members of a Buffalo terrorist cell, two members of a Detroit cell, Ohio truck driver Iymam Faris and U.S.-born Taliban John Walker Lindh. But we also know that despite these successes, there are additional tools that we can provide to our law enforcement and judicial officers. Just as we send our military men and women into battle with the very best training and equipment, so too must we do the same thing for those who are doing the job here on the home front. We certainly cannot ignore that the successes that we have had are only the tip of the iceberg, that we still have a huge effort in front of us in order to ensure that we don't have additional attacks here in the United States and that we can roll up those who are responsible for future attacks. That is why we have convened this hearing today to investigate some additional tools that we might be able to provide for our law enforcement community at large, and specifically for Federal law enforcement. Rather than talk about the legislation that I have introduced at this point or further describe its contents, I am going to defer to Senator Feingold for his opening remarks. And then during the questioning, I am sure we will have a lot more opportunity to get into some of those details. I have authored a couple of bills which I think would help and would provide some additional tools, and we will be very interested in getting the views of those of you who are expert in this matter as to how well you think they would work, whether they are needed and how we could implement them. Again, I thank you all for being here today. [The prepared statement of Chairman Kyl appears as a submission for the record.] Chairman Kyl. Senator Feingold. STATEMENT OF HON. RUSSELL FEINGOLD, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF WISCONSIN Senator Feingold. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First, I want to thank you for allowing me to join you here today. Senator Feinstein, who is the Ranking Member of this Subcommittee, was unable to attend today because of a previous commitment to attend an Intelligence Committee briefing with Director Tenet. I have always been impressed with the seriousness of the work done in the Subcommittee on Terrorism, Technology and Homeland Security, and today's hearing is no exception. As I have repeatedly said, protecting the country against terrorism should be our Nation's top priority. Deciding what powers we are going to grant to law enforcement in the fight against terrorism is one of the most critical issues confronting Congress, and I am glad that we are taking deliberate steps to consider this very important issue. I must also express my disappointment, however, at the narrow focus of this hearing. Many members of the Judiciary Committee, both Republicans and Democrats, have been publicly seeking a hearing on how the PATRIOT Act is being used and a real debate on whether some of the most controversial provisions of that Act could be improved to better balance the needs of law enforcement with the civil liberties and privacy of the American people. In fact, Senator Feinstein, like many of us in Congress, has still not received basic answers to her letters written to the Department of Justice about the PATRIOT Act. She has written to the Department of Justice two times this year and is yet to receive a response. And she is not alone. I have repeatedly asked for information about how some of the most controversial provisions of the PATRIOT Act like Section 215 have been used, and have not received satisfactory responses. For us to have a meaningful conversation, it needs to be a two-way conversation. Rather than convening to explore how the administration is utilizing the powers already granted to it under the original PATRIOT Act, we are here today to learn about administration requests for even more authority. While I am disappointed that the focus of this hearing is so narrow, I do hope it will help to inform us about whether we need to give the Department of Justice even more power, and if the answer is yes, then what safeguards should be built into that authority. Today, we will be hearing about proposals to create a new, broad subpoena authority that actually bypasses the grand jury system in terrorism cases, and an expanded presumptive right to pre-trial detention for people charged with any terrorism- related crime. The administration is apparently reluctant to allow these proposals to be linked to the PATRIOT Act, but a version of these proposals did appear in the draft of the so- called PATRIOT II leaked last year, entitled the Domestic Security Enhancement Act. As our Nation faces terrorist threats, we must respond to those threats without compromising the civil liberties that are the bedrock of our country. We must balance the legitimate needs of law enforcement against the privacy and freedom of all Americans, the vast majority of whom are, of course, innocent of any association with terrorists. An essential tenet of any plan to keep Americans safe must be a dedication to safeguarding the civil rights and liberties that define this great Nation. The criminal justice system has by and large served us well. Over the years, we have used our criminal justice system to successfully prosecute rapists, pedophiles, drug dealers, street gangs, murderers, organized crime and others, while respecting important civil rights. I hope the witnesses today will be able to tell us why these new powers are needed in the fight against terrorism. The burden is on the administration to show Congress and the American people why current law is inadequate, why Federal law enforcement needs even more power, and how the power it already has under the PATRIOT Act and the new powers it now seeks are consistent with the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I share the Chairman's commitment to protecting Americans from terrorism, but at the same time we cannot ignore the FBI's history of abusing its authority in launching investigations against civil rights and anti-war activists. Taking into account this history of targeting activists that challenge the Government's policies, the language of the pre-trial detention bill is particularly disturbing. In fact, the pre-trial detention bill, Senate 1606, would include traditional forms of political activism in the definition of terrorism. Mr. Chairman, we should take a considered and measured course when creating new powers, choosing to build upon the well-tested powers already contained in the Criminal Code, if necessary. For that reason, I am very pleased James K. Robinson, former Assistant Attorney General for the Department of Justice's Criminal Division, is with us today to share his wealth of knowledge and experience on these issues. I wish to extend a special welcome to Mr. Robinson and express my great appreciation for his willingness to join us on such short notice. With respect to the PATRIOT Act, I believe that Americans support common-sense proposals to protect privacy and civil liberties that would not in any way undermine the fight against terrorism. They have asked the administration and the Congress to listen. Hearing their concerns and acting on them is the right and patriotic thing to do. So as we begin the hearing today on a set of proposed new tools to fight terrorism, I urge all participants to engage in an open and honest dialogue with Congress and the American people about how to combat the very real threat of terrorism, while respecting the freedoms of all Americans. I thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I do look forward to hearing from the witnesses. [The prepared statement of Senator Feingold appears as a submission for the record.] Chairman Kyl. Thank you very much, Senator Feingold, and I should have announced earlier that we scheduled this hearing at a time when Senator Feinstein had no alternative but to be at the Intelligence Committee. I know her staff is here and I regret that we had to do that, but I do appreciate Senator Feingold being here. I certainly agree with much of the sentiment, Senator Feingold, that you expressed. I am trying to find out the exact number of hearings that have been held that have examined the use of the PATRIOT Act, because I think we have had several and I just want the record to reflect whatever that number is. I will see if I can get that, but I am perfectly willing to have more. In any event, we can delve today into some potential new tools that might be used, and I think we have three people here who are very well qualified to discuss that. I think probably the proper order would be first for Rachel Brand, then Michael Battle, and then James Robinson, the clean- up hitter who I know will have some different point of view. But let's do it in that order and start with you, Rachel Brand. Thank you very much for being here. STATEMENT OF RACHEL BRAND, PRINCIPAL DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL, OFFICE OF LEGAL POLICY, DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, WASHINGTON, D.C. Ms. Brand. Thank you, Chairman Kyl and Senator Feingold. I appreciate the opportunity to testify today. The tools that this proposal would provide counter- terrorism investigators could provide the critical difference in certain terrorism investigations. I am going to focus today on the administrative subpoena proposal. Mike Battle will focus on the presumptive pre-trial detention of terrorist suspects proposal. In terrorism investigations, prevention is the key, and for the law enforcement officers responsible for staying a step ahead of terrorists in these investigations time is of the essence. Even a brief delay in these investigations can be disastrous. Therefore, investigators need tools that allow them to obtain information and to act as quickly as necessary. Administrative subpoenas are one tool that would enable investigators to avoid costly delays. An administrative subpoena, as you know, is an order from an agency official to a third party requesting the recipient to produce certain documents. These subpoenas are a well- established investigative tool currently available in investigations of a wide variety of Federal offenses, including health care fraud and sexual abuse of children. In fact, my office has identified approximately 335 existing administrative subpoena authorities for use in civil and criminal investigations. Administrative subpoenas are not, however, currently available in criminal terrorism investigations. This disparity in the law is illogical, especially considering the particular need for quick action in a terrorism investigation and the potentially catastrophic consequences of a terrorist attack. The legislation introduced by Chairman Kyl would fix this anomaly in the law by giving the FBI authority to use administrative subpoenas in investigations of Federal crimes of terrorism. Grand jury subpoenas which are issued by Federal prosecutors are a useful tool in all criminal investigations and are available to obtain the same types of records that could be requested with an administrative subpoena. However, there are circumstances in which the FBI's ability to directly issue an administrative subpoena would save precious time in a terrorism investigation. For example, using an administrative subpoena would eliminate delays caused by the potential unavailability of an Assistant U.S. Attorney, the lack of a grand jury sitting at the moment the documents are needed, or the absence of an empaneled grand jury in the judicial district where the investigation is taking place. Some of these circumstances occur only rarely, but in terrorism investigations, in particular, investigators need the tools to act as quickly as necessary when these circumstances do occur. And these same considerations have led Congress to create other administrative subpoena authorities that already exist. The Department has previously provided Congress with examples of when administrative subpoenas would prove useful, but I will recap these briefly now. In the first example, on a Friday afternoon investigators learn that members of an al Qaeda cell have purchased bomb- making materials. They want to obtain purchase records that may reveal what chemicals the terrorists purchased and delivery records that might reveal the terrorists' location. Investigators can reach a prosecutor, who issues a grand jury subpoena. But because the grand jury is not scheduled to meet again until Monday, the return date of the subpoena must be Monday, as well, and investigators may not obtain the information for 3 days, by which time the al Qaeda cell may have executed its plan. The return date of an administrative subpoena, by contrast, does not have to be a date the grand jury is sitting, which will potentially allow investigators to obtain information more quickly. In the second scenario, investigators learn that members of an al Qaeda cell recently stayed at a particular hotel. Investigators want to obtain information about the credit card numbers used to pay for the hotel room, but the hotel manager declines to produce the records without a subpoena for fear of incurring civil liability. If investigators were able to issue the administrative subpoena immediately, the hotel manager could comply immediately, as well, without fear of incurring liability. Without this authority, however, investigators would have to wait to contact an Assistant U.S. Attorney to assure a grand jury subpoena, which potentially would lose valuable time in a terrorism investigation where speed is of the essence. In addition to providing an important new law enforcement authority, Chairman Kyl's bill contains important protections. For example, it would not give the Justice Department unilateral authority to compel the production of documents. If a recipient refuses to comply with a subpoena, the Justice Department must go to court to enforce it, and the recipient would have the ability to ask the court to quash the subpoena, as with other subpoena authorities. Because the bill would only apply to terrorism investigations, in which confidentiality is often critical to success, it would prohibit a subpoena recipient from disclosing the subpoena in cases where the Attorney General certifies that disclosure would endanger national security. The bill, however, would impose several safeguards on the use of this non-disclosure provision. For instance, the requirement would last only until the Attorney General determines that the requirement is no longer justified by a danger to the national security. At that time, the recipient of the subpoena would be notified that the non-disclosure application had expired. In addition, the recipient would be explicitly allowed to discuss the subpoena with his or her attorney, and the recipient could challenge a non-disclosure obligation in Federal court and the court could set it aside if it determined that doing so would not endanger the national security. The bill also would immunize against civil liability individuals who comply with an administrative subpoena. These subpoenas thus protect third parties who are willing to comply with a subpoena, but fear incurring civil liability if they do so. In short, this bill would advance law enforcement's proactive approach to preventing terrorism by giving officers the tools they need to conduct time-sensitive investigations without unnecessary delay, all while providing appropriate safeguards. Mr. Chairman, thank you again for allowing me to testify and I will look forward to your questions. [The prepared statement of Ms. Brand appears as a submission for the record.] Chairman Kyl. Thank you for that statement. Mr. Battle. STATEMENT OF MICHAEL BATTLE, UNITED STATES ATTORNEY, WESTERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK, BUFFALO, NEW YORK Mr. Battle. Thank you, Chairman Kyl. Good afternoon, Ranking Member Feingold. I thank each of you for the opportunity to testify before you today. As United States Attorney for the Western District of New York, I have had firsthand experience with terrorism investigations and prosecutions. As a result of that experience, I can tell you that the safety of our fellow citizens would be significantly enhanced if Federal law enforcement provided for the presumptive pre-trial detention of terrorists. Mr. Chairman, the Pre-Trail Detention and Lifetime Supervision of Terrorists Act of 2003 is an important and much- needed piece of legislation, and the Department of Justice strongly urges the Congress to pass it as soon as possible. Let me begin by explaining the nature of the problem that this bill is intended to fix. While it may seem intuitive that those charged with the most serious crimes and who may pose a flight risk or danger to the community should be detained before trail, under current law that is not always the case. Although defendants in Federal cases who are accused of certain crimes are presumptively denied pre-trial release, under Title 18, United States Code, Section 3142(e), the specific enumerated list of such crimes contained in that statute does not include most terrorism offenses. The consequences of this gap in the law were noted by President Bush, who, on September 10, 2003, in a speech at the FBI Academy, said, quote, ``Suspected terrorists could be released, free to leave the country, or, worse, before trial. This disparity in the law makes no sense. If dangerous drug dealers can be held without bail in this way, Congress should allow for the same treatment of accused terrorists.'' Mr. Chairman, your bill would answer the President's call to action and close this loophole. The bill would amend Title 18, U.S. Code, Section 3142(e), to presumptively deny release to persons charged with an offense involved in or related to domestic or international terrorism or with the Federal crime of terrorism as defined in U.S. Code 2332b(g)(5). This change in the law would not result in the automatic detention of individuals charged with those offenses, but merely a rebuttable presumption in favor of detention, a presumption that could be overcome with evidence from the accused that would favor release. Adding all terrorism offenses to the list of crimes for which there is a presumption in favor of detention is warranted because of the unparalleled magnitude of the potential danger posed to our fellow citizens by acts of terrorism. These acts, moreover, are many times committed by individuals who are part of a larger group, many with international connections that are often in a position to help their members flee or go into hiding if released before trial. It is important to emphasize that this proposed legislation does not represent a solution in search of a problem. This problem is a very real one and, unless fixed, the threat posed by this problem will remain clear and present. I want to share with the Subcommittee one real-life example of how the current statutory scheme can impede terrorism investigations and prosecutions, and why a legislative solution is necessary. In a recent terrorism case in the Western District of New York involving several defendants collectively known as the Lackawanna Six, the Government sought an order for pre-trial detention of each defendant. The defendants, of course, opposed this motion. Because Section 3142 did not presently include a presumption for pre-trial detention in terrorism cases, a nearly three-week hearing on the issue of detention followed. In the course of that hearing, we, the Government, were forced to disclose a substantial amount of our evidence against the defendants. In fact, the magistrate presiding over the hearing went so far as to consider a request by defense counsel to require us to put an FBI agent on the stand so that he could be cross-examined by defense counsel, which is very unusual. Fortunately, the magistrate judge denied this request by the defense, thus avoiding what was already turning into a miniature trial which would have put the government at a significant tactical disadvantage due to what would have been a premature disclosure of even more of our trial evidence. Moreover, without the presumption of detention in this case, the magistrate judge did authorize the release of one defendant. Although that defendant failed to post bail and therefore was not released, it was later revealed that this defendant had been the least candid of the six and had, in fact, lied to the FBI about the fact that he had met with Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan. If the law had contained a presumption in favor of pre- trial detention applicable to the charges of these defendants, it is unlikely that the Government would have been required to prematurely disclose so much of its evidence, and virtually certain that the hearing would not have lasted almost three weeks. However, let me remind you that even with a presumption of detention in this case, defense counsel would have had the opportunity to argue and present evidence against detention. In addition to tactical concerns, the absence of a presumption of detention could permit terrorist suspects to go free altogether without facing justice. In another case, for example, a Hezbollah supporter was charged with providing material support to a terrorist organization. He fled the country after being released on bail. After living overseas as a fugitive for 6 years, he surrendered to the FBI and now is in U.S. custody. These examples illustrate the dangerous loophole that exists in current law. Clearly, we are not talking about a purely theoretical problem that may or may not come up in the future. We are talking about real obstacles the Government has faced in prosecuting the war on terrorism. Mr. Chairman, the passage of this bill will go a long way toward ensuring that such situations cannot occur again. Once again, thank you for allowing me to testify and present my perspective as a prosecutor in the field on this very important issue, and I look forward to answering any questions that you may have. [The prepared statement of Mr. Battle appears as a submission for the record.] Chairman Kyl. Thank you very much for your testimony, and I note that both of you conformed to our five-minute rule. Your full texts, of course, will be made part of our record and I do appreciate your keeping to our time constraints. We should have plenty of time to have several different rounds of questions. Our final witness is James Robinson. Mr. Robinson, the floor is yours. STATEMENT OF JAMES K. ROBINSON, FORMER ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL, CRIMINAL DIVISION, DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, WASHINGTON, D.C. Mr. Robinson. Thank you, Chairman Kyl and Senator Feingold. I am pleased to appear before the Subcommittee to offer my views on Senator Kyl's proposed Judicially Enforceable Terrorism Subpoena Act. The issues before the Subcommittee today are of critical importance to the country and I commend the Subcommittee for holding this hearing. I want to personally thank the Chairman and Senator Feingold for your serious attention to the terrorism threat posed today to the United States and to the world. While working as the Assistant Attorney General for the Criminal Division, it was my honor to appear before this Committee and subcommittees of the Congress dealing with criminal justice issues, and I am pleased to be here today to discuss these important issues dealing with measures designed to help law enforcement in waging the war against terrorism. As September 11 taught us all too well, terrorism does present a grave danger to our National security and to the safety of American citizens throughout the world. America must bring all of the appropriate resources to bear in the fight for freedom and against terrorism. I have no doubt that this bill and Representative Feeney's bill in the House--that is, the Anti-Terrorism Tools Enhancement Act of 2003--are offered with America's best interests in mind. However, I think some of their provisions merit very careful consideration both from a law enforcement and from a civil liberties perspective. As the Subcommittee, I am sure, already appreciates, as currently proposed, these two proposals would fundamentally change in many ways the traditional limits on the power of law enforcement to interfere with the liberty rights of American citizens in dealing with their Government. More specifically, I encourage the Subcommittee to carefully scrutinize how these new devices contained in these proposals have the potential for curtailing important checks and balances that could well create legal and constitutional challenges, and could in the end cause the war on terrorism more harm than good. Over the years, Congress has appropriately, I think, been reluctant to expand the powers of criminal law enforcement agents to have direct access to administrative subpoenas to conduct criminal investigations. Such subpoenas interfere with the liberty and privacy rights of American citizens. While Congress has authorized administrative subpoenas in a variety of civil contexts and in some criminal contexts, the use of the subpoenas for exclusively criminal investigations raises a host of constitutional and due process issues not present in the civil context. To my knowledge, Congress has never authorized the creation of a potentially secret executive branch police proceeding of the type that could be contemplated by these proposals. I think it is important to weigh the benefit to law enforcement of granting this power to FBI agents or other Federal agents carefully against the potential loss of liberty, and more important from a law enforcement perspective the loss of the ability for the skilled prosecutors in the Justice Department to work hand in hand with case agents in conducting these very sensitive investigations. The administrative subpoenas for terrorism cases contemplated by the proposals under review in today's hearing would compel American citizens to appear for compelled questioning, potentially in secret on certification by the Attorney General, before the executive branch of their Government without the participation or protection of the grand jury or of a pending judicial proceeding to answer questions and produce documents. No showing of reasonable suspicion or probable cause, or even imminent need or exigent circumstances, would be required to authorize such subpoenas. The United States Supreme Court has held that witnesses appearing before Federal grand juries need not be given the Miranda warnings, for example, in these kinds of proceedings because they are very different than the type of proceedings envisioned by the administrative subpoena proposals that are under consideration here today. The Supreme Court has said that this is entirely different than custodial interrogation, that there are marked contrasts between grand jury investigations and custodial interrogations. And the Supreme Court has indicated that the powerful coercive powers of a grand jury are justified because they are in contrast to police interrogation. It is certainly my experience that case agents exercise good faith in conducting their investigations. They do so vigorously and in the best interest of the country. I think it works best when they work hand in hand with skilled prosecutors in making these delicate decisions. The Justice Department has a series of carefully crafted guidelines developed over many years in dealing with the issuance of grand jury subpoenas. And I think it is well to keep in mind that as diligent and fair-minded as case agents are, it is worth keeping in mind a comment that has been attributed to Mark Twain that, ``to a man with a hammer, a lot of things look like nails.'' To an agent with a subpoena, a lot of things will look like subpoenable material. Under this proposal there is no requirement, as there is under other provisions where administrative subpoenas have been allowed--and I refer the Subcommittee, for example, to the situation in which in situations where the Department of the Treasury feels that there is an imminent threat to a protected Secret Service person, someone protected by the Secret Service, administrative subpoenas are allowed under circumstances where the Director of the Secret Service certifies that there is an imminent threat of injury to a protected party. That would address, it would seems to me, some of the justifications that Ms. Brand, for example, offered about the, I think, very rare situations in which there might be this exigent circumstances need. I think that the proceedings that might be contemplated by these administrative proceedings are quite unprecedented in the sense that they are secret proceedings. I think the legislation contemplates the creation of guidelines, but it is unclear what those guidelines would be, where the approval level would be. And I might point out to the Subcommittee that, for example, even Assistant United States Attorneys in this country do not have a right on their own to issue forthwith subpoenas. It requires the personal approval of the United States Attorney, and that is because I think the Department and Congress have been careful to not create a situation that in my written testimony Justice Black once referred to as reminiscent of a star chamber in which you give a blank set of subpoenas to case agents who are under a lot of pressure in these cases to do an effective job, carte blanche, in effect, to give subpoenas to people who have to then, if they want to resist it, hire a lawyer, go to court. If they do any of that, you have lost the advantage of the exigent circumstances. I think we have developed over many years in the Federal grand jury system a carefully crafted investigative tool that has served the country well over 200 years. I think Congress has been wise to be resistant to the grant of these administrative subpoenas. I was the United States Attorney in Detroit in the 1970's. This issue of administrative subpoenas for Federal agents has been kicked around for a very long time. I frankly think Congress has been wise to be careful about authorizing and granting this authority, and I think it would be well for the Subcommittee to look at this issue very carefully before making a decision to move in this area. And if it were to do so, once a showing would have to be made--and I suggest more than a hypothetical showing, but some real instances of situations in which there has been real harm in these cases. And I hate to raise the slippery slope argument, but it seems to me that the notion here is if it is good enough for terrorism cases, why isn't it good enough for kidnapping cases. The agents would love to have it, but I think it is a great advantage to require Federal investigative agents to have to go--it isn't just a speed bump to go to an Assistant United States Attorney trained and familiar with Federal criminal law and worried about what is going to happen down the road. Are we going to create a problem that is going to create a motion to suppress evidence or otherwise interfere with the successful prosecution of the case? These are all, I think, important issues from a law enforcement perspective, not just a civil liberties perspective, although I think as we think of this--and I agree with Senator Feingold that as we develop these tools and examine them in our important fight against terrorism, we need to make sure that we reserve to American citizens as much freedom and liberty that we have, particularly if at the end of the day we have created a new device, an untested device to give case agents this very awesome power to interfere with people's lives even in situations where there isn't imminent danger. I have submitted a lengthy piece of written testimony and I would request that the Subcommittee accept that. I share the Subcommittee's view that the fight against terrorism and for freedom must be fought with all appropriate resources. As we fight for freedom, however, we must continue to live freely and in a way that shows the world that we respect and honor and cherish our individual liberties. With that, I will submit my written submission and be happy to answer any questions that the Subcommittee might have. [The prepared statement of Mr. Robinson appears as a submission for the record.] Chairman Kyl. Thank you, Mr. Robinson. All three of you have presented very thoughtful testimony and I very much appreciate it. What I would like to do is I would just ask Senator Feingold if it would be all right with him, since we don't have other members here--incidentally, as you all know--you are experienced--this does not reflect any disinterest in this subject. We are all supposed to be at about four different places right now, and if more than two bells ring, we will have to leave to go to the floor. It is important to make a record and you all are making a record by your statements, both the written and oral statements, and by questions that we have. Those, of course, are shared with our colleagues and we appreciate it. Let me begin by getting to one of the last points, Mr. Robinson, that you made. I will ask Ms. Brand a question and if you would like to respond, please do so. The question concerns whether or not this would be something new--these administrative subpoenas would be something new or unprecedented. You testified, Ms. Brand, that the Office of Legal Policy identified approximately 335 administrative subpoena authorities already existing in current law, and you noted just two examples in health care fraud and sexual abuse. As I understand it, not all of those are required to be sought by the Assistant U.S. Attorney. First of all, is that latter assumption correct? Ms. Brand. The administrative subpoena authority that allows subpoenas to be issued in health care fraud cases and cases involving sexual abuse of minors is given to the Attorney General by the statute. That has been delegated down to Assistant U.S. Attorneys and to any trial attorney in the Criminal Division. Another very frequently used administrative subpoena authority is 21 U.S.C. 876, which has been delegated from the AG to the FBI. Any special agent can authorize the issuance of a subpoena for Controlled Substances Act criminal investigation, any drug investigation. Chairman Kyl. So it seems to me that it is neither a precedent-creating situation here nor one which hasn't been used a lot, nor one which is only used by U.S. Attorneys. Mr. Robinson, I would like to get your response to that. Mr. Robinson. Thank you, Senator. There is a report to the Congress on the use of administrative subpoena authorities by the executive branch which I am sure the Senator is familiar with, and it is worth looking at because each of these subpoenas must be reviewed in their context. My point about this being unprecedented is it is unprecedented in this sense: As I understand, its purpose is to arm line agents, FBI agents, with the ability to serve the equivalent of forthwith subpoenas, which is give a subpoena to somebody that says you come to the FBI office now or tomorrow morning or in 5 minutes from now and bring your documents. So it is a forthwith subpoena that does not have any Assistant U.S. Attorney or Federal prosecutor involvement in its decisionmaking. It also is secret. It is secret in the sense that the individual involved can't tell anyone but his or her lawyer, presumably, or somebody that they need to go to get documents that they have been subpoenaed. And if they tell the press or anyone else that they have been subject to such a subpoena, as I understand the proposal, they are committing a crime for which they can go to jail for a year. And if they have a certain intent, it can be a 5-year felony. So in that sense, I am not aware--and perhaps Ms. Brand can enlighten me on this--I am not aware of any administrative procedure subpoena regime that has anything like a secret proceeding in which agents, not lawyers, can give subpoenas to individuals to compel them, on pain of contempt of court or incarceration until they talk, in secret, under these circumstances. So that is what is unprecedented about it. I think the others are often in the context of a regulatory scheme, for example, in the drug area for controlled substances where we have--it is in the health care area; it is where people who are health care providers, et cetera. I am not saying there is no room for it at all under any circumstances. I just think that because this is new and because, it seems to me, it is unprecedented in the sense of who is going to use it, when it is going to be used and what the checks and balances are, it requires a little different attention than--and I use these administrative proceedings in my practice in a variety of these settings because I do this kind of work and I am familiar with it. Chairman Kyl. First of all, you cited in your testimony as an example of how we can already obtain certain kinds of documents the national security letters. But as I understand it, they have an automatic non-disclosure requirement. So here again, it is not unprecedented. We already have a precedent of something that isn't optional, but is required, and further has no provision for judicial review. So if national security letters are fine, then why would something that is less than that create some precedent? Mr. Robinson. I think that is another topic and I think that that is an example of a very targeted, narrow area requiring a high level of approval. We are now talking about, as I understand it, unless there are provisions that I haven't been carefully looking at, basically giving subpoena power to case agents who need not talk to Assistant U.S. Attorneys necessarily and who can make a decision to require a forthwith subpoena to be answered, and not just to deliver documents, as I understand to be the national security letters, but to also, at least in the Feeney proposal but not--and I compliment you, Senator, in yours--these full-scale interrogations. That could be very troubling, and I think that is a particularly troubling approach. Chairman Kyl. Of course, we do not include that in ours. It is only the custodian of the document kind of appearance that is required. Mr. Robinson. I compliment you for that change. I did say in my testimony I was a little uncertain as to the language that appears to come from the Feeney proposal that deals with the broader-- Chairman Kyl. I noted your question in that regard and because clearly my intent is the same as yours here, perhaps we can collaborate on language to reflect the point of view you have there. We need to get into the other subject, too, and I don't mean to ignore you, Mr. Battle. But since we are on the subject of administrative subpoenas, Rachel Brand, can you comment a little bit on some of the points that have been made here with respect to the need for secrecy? In fact, before I ask you to do that, I presume, Mr. Robinson, that in terrorism cases you would acknowledge that there certainly are some cases where there is a need for quick action and secrecy. The question is how do we deal with that. Mr. Robinson. I certainly agree there is a need for quick action and for secrecy, and I think there are a lot of tools to get at that. I commend the Senator for looking at other ways to do it as long as we do this careful balance that we are all concerned about. Chairman Kyl. Right. Ms. Brand. Ms. Brand. Thank you. A couple of points. I would just like to clarify first of all that nothing in the bill gives line agents the authority to do anything. The authority is given to the Attorney General, which is typical in administrative subpoena authorities. In other contexts, such as in the drug administrative subpoena context, that authority has been delegated down to the level of supervisory special agent, but it has not been delegated down to the level of line agent. So I just wanted to clarify that. Presumably, the delegation level for this proposal would be taken care of in AG guidelines which would be issued after the bill was passed, if it were. In terms of the forthwith subpoena point, the bill provides that a reasonable time shall be given to respond. And it is important to remember that the usefulness of administrative subpoenas, which is speed, pertains mostly when the recipient is willing to comply. Obviously, if the recipient is not willing to comply, he can refuse to comply and no sanction whatsoever attaches to the mere refusal to comply with the subpoena. Or he can file a motion to quash, in which case the speed would go out the window. But in most cases where recipients are willing to comply, the ability to issue a subpoena is very useful. In terms of the need for secrecy, first of all, it is not unprecedented. One type of grand jury subpoena, for example, under the Bank Secrecy Act contains or carries a non-disclosure obligation. There are other administrative subpoena authorities that have other types of non-disclosure obligations that attach to them. But in terrorism investigations, or really in any investigation, disclosure of the facts of the investigation can cause flight from prosecution, intimidation of witnesses, destruction of evidence, and so forth. That is especially true in terrorism investigations. I know that Mr. Battle has faced issues like that, especially in his Lackawanna Six prosecution. And as you pointed out, the secrecy obligation is not automatic. It only is triggered if the AG certifies that disclosure would endanger the national security. Chairman Kyl. I need to go back and review what we did with respect to guidelines. I certainly agree that guidelines are required here. The question is how they would be done and if we haven't made it clear enough how guidelines would be produced, again I would appreciate any suggestions on how that would be done. Mr. Robinson. I think it would be helpful to have some guidance with regard to how far down this actually would go in terms of authority. I certainly agree with Rachel that the Department has, I think, over the years done a very good job of making sure that the power that it has been given has been carefully utilized. Indeed, I testified on proposals to amend the grand jury system and to reform it, and I opposed that because I think the Department has done a good job internally. But I worried a little and I may have misunderstood, but I understood, for example, in Ms. Brand's testimony that there was a contemplation that this would be available to case agents under difficult, exigent circumstances. And if that is not intended, then-- Chairman Kyl. But if I understand it, the authority is to given to the Attorney General, who presumably would develop the guidelines under which the authority would be given. Is that correct or is that incorrect? Ms. Brand. That is correct, as in the drug context, those who are in the field with the case agents, but who are at a higher level of supervisory authority. Chairman Kyl. Let me ask one last question and then the next round I will go into other legislation. We talk about grand jury, but, Mr. Robinson, I did want to at least ask if you would concede that when we talk about a grand jury subpoena, that is a subpoena issued by a Federal prosecutor. It is not issued by the judge or by the grand jury; it is just issued by the prosecutor pursuant to the proceedings that are then pending. Mr. Robinson. Well, actually, no. The grand jury does issue the subpoena. The prosecutor asks for it, but the grand jury has to give it, and we like to think it isn't just a lip- service process. But I think you are right. There is a very close involvement by prosecutors. Chairman Kyl. Right. Mr. Robinson. But they can't issue them on their own. Chairman Kyl. No, but I guess the point is if the grand jury isn't around, he doesn't get to issue the subpoena and therein one of the concerns we have about the timing issue here. My time is up, but I will come back to a second round. Let me turn to Senator Feingold. Senator Feingold. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This has already been alluded to, but Ms. Brand, the Kyl and Feeney bills for administrative subpoenas differ in at least one important way. Representative Feeney seeks to allow the use of administrative subpoenas for both the production of documents and for acquiring the testimony of possible witnesses. Now, Senator Kyl's bill seeks to extend the power to cover only the production of documents. Which of these bills, if either, accurately reflects the administration's position on what administrative subpoena power is necessary in terrorism cases? Ms. Brand. We support the bill that Senator Kyl has introduced that does not contain the broad witness testimony provision. The authority that we are after that we really think is necessary is the authority to subpoena documents. My understanding is that other subpoena authorities that allow for the subpoenaing of testimony of witnesses are used in a civil context. Even though by the statute's terms they appear to be available in the criminal context, they are not used in the criminal context, and we don't feel that authority is necessary. Senator Feingold. Thank you for that answer. Ms. Brand, time and time again administration officials offer a similar scenario to explain why the power of administrative subpoenas should be extended to anti-terrorism investigations. Late at night, in the middle of nowhere, with no Assistant U.S. Attorney available, the FBI wants to get records from a business about purchase of bomb-making materials. So it appears that the need to obtain records immediately is the main reason for seeking administrative subpoena power. If immediacy is truly the reason for bypassing the grand jury process, then why is there no language included in either the House or Senate legislation that limits the exercise of the power to exigent situations instead of granting this broad and unchecked power to Federal law enforcement effectively 24 hours a day, 7 days a week? Ms. Brand. Most other administrative subpoena authorities-- in fact, I only know of one that contains such a limitation, the one that Mr. Robinson alluded to earlier. Most other subpoena authorities, such as the ones available in health care fraud investigations and sexual abuse investigations and drug investigations, do not contain that limitation. Terrorism investigations are much more likely--really, every terrorism investigation involves some exigent circumstance. I don't think that kind of limitation is necessary. Senator Feingold. In light of the fact that this has to do with a situation where immediacy is required, what would be the harm of having some kind of an intermittent review instead of this kind of open-ended--in the spirit of Senator Kyl's attempt to get this language right? Ms. Brand. I am not sure why the provision in 18 U.S.C. 3486 dealing with Secret Service protectees contains the immediacy limitation that Mr. Robinson alluded to. But when you think about exigent circumstances, putting into the law additional approval requirements only slows things down. So an immediacy requirement would have the perverse effect, I think, of slowing things down in a case in which immediacy is the rule. Senator Feingold. Mr. Robinson, would you like to respond to that? Mr. Robinson. Well, on the subject of slowing things down, I suppose one could say that the Bill of Rights sort of slowed things down, and does occasionally, but it was intended to do that. And it seems to me that if indeed the real motivation for the administrative subpoenas is that there is some kind of exigent circumstance, immediacy--that is what has been offered up as the reason for it--then I am not sure I understand why requiring such a certification as exists with regard to the Director of Secret Service in their administrative subpoenas wouldn't make sense. The thing that I would worry about, frankly, and I would worry about it as a prosecutor, is that these administrative subpoenas would be utilized in lieu of a grand jury because it is easier because you don't have to go both an Assistant U.S. Attorney who might be troublesome about things like the guidelines and whether you are following the rules. There is this tension that exists, as all the prosecutors in the room will know, between agents and prosecutors in this area. It is a healthy tension, it seems to me. It makes Federal criminal investigations much more credible and effective, and in the end it makes sense. I think we have seen examples of situations in which, when that close working relationship has broken down, we have had problems. I think most recently the wall that was, I think, broken down in the FISA area between prosecutors and investigators in national security cases is a good example. When I was Assistant Attorney General, this was a battle. Those of us in the Criminal Division wanted access to that information, though we could be helpful in conducting those investigations without violating the FISA statute. And I think ultimately it was determined that that barrier was a good thing to kind of lower. I think the danger that I would worry about with a widespread administrative subpoena process where the agents don't have to go to the prosecutors and deal with this is that even in non-exigent circumstance cases, you would have this being used in lieu of going through the grand jury process that has a lot of checks and balances associated with it and where the courts have understood that, for example, you have a lot of protections that come from a grand jury system. That is what worries me a little bit. Senator Feingold. Well, I appreciate that answer because, as I indicated in my question to Ms. Brand, the whole basis for this is the need for an immediate opportunity to get at some information, and I understand that. But then the failure to have some kind of limitation on it after the fact sort of undercuts the credibility of the notion that this is only based on the need for immediate information, and it confuses me. In fact, it reminds me of the same problem under the sneak- and-peek provisions of the USA PATRIOT Act. Most of us don't want to get rid of the sneak-and-peek provisions completely, but the resistance to having a renewal every 7 days by a judge of the authority to be able to do something so extraordinary in light of the Fourth Amendment puzzles me. Why can't we have that kind of review once the urgency of the situation dissipates so that the case can be made again? Frankly, Mr. Chairman, this is a big part of the problem in dealing with this issue. I think you, in good faith, are trying to get this right, but it undercuts the credibility of those who want the broader provisions if they won't listen to common- sense ways in which this can be tailored to meet the problem that has been the basis for why they seek the greater powers. I think this is an important thing so that, frankly, we can make joint progress on getting this right, which is exactly what I want to do. Mr. Robinson, you mention in your statement that the Supreme Court has previously noted that there are important safeguards present in the grand jury system. These safeguards would not be present when using tools like administrative subpoenas. Would you expand on the safeguards in the current grand jury system and why they are so important? Mr. Robinson. Well, a couple of things. Some of my written testimony was directed to Representative Feeney's proposal, which I think was very troublesome, and I am delighted that Senator Kyl has seen the wisdom of not going that far. For example, I have pointed out that it has not been found by the Supreme Court necessary to give the Miranda warnings in a grand jury setting, even though the witnesses there are under compulsion with a subpoena. If you don't talk, you can be held in contempt of court unless you assert your Fifth Amendment privilege. But, nevertheless, the Supreme Court says that is a setting in which we have an independent citizen grand jury present; we have a transcript, we have a record; we don't think you need to give the Miranda warnings there. In the proposal by Congressman Feeney, if you were to allow secret interrogations pursuant to administrative subpoenas, I think you would have a serious constitutional issue there, and the Supreme Court has commented on that. I would also say that my comments are directed toward the fact that the Department of Justice has a chapter in the U.S. Attorneys Manual dealing with grand jury process and guidelines and who you subpoena, when you subpoena, the appropriateness of subpoenaing people. There is a policy on forthwith subpoenas that requires the approval of the United States Attorney before an Assistant U.S. Attorney can issue a forthwith subpoena. The Federal courts have expressed serious criticism and concern about the issuance of forthwith subpoenas. And as I understand the principal motivation for this proposal, it is to allow agents to issue forthwith subpoenas. And so this is an area that just needs some care, it seems to me. I think the seasoned judgment of skilled Federal prosecutors, people like United States Attorney Battle and others, is important in this process. I worry that the proposal is going to create an end-around this system of careful checks and balances and it won't be limited to these exigent circumstances. I mean, case agents want to get the job done and if they don't have to walk across the street and talk an Assistant U.S. Attorney into something, they are going to go and do it themselves. And I don't criticize them for it. That is their job, that is what they are supposed to do. But I think we have a system that says you talk to the AUSA, you deal with the policies that are involved, you work together on these investigations. I am sure Mr. Battle has duty assistants who are available 24/7, who have beepers on. You know, they are available, they are in the trenches fighting the war on terrorism. They should be there helping to make these critical decisions so that when they get a good case, they do the kind of job they did and I compliment them for in the Lackawanna case and others, and get an effective prosecution, one that is going to stand up and stand the scrutiny of appellate review. Senator Feingold. Mr. Chairman, I think my time may be up. Chairman Kyl. Let's go to 5 minutes now, so we will just go back and forth, if you want to do that. Senator Feingold. Sure. Chairman Kyl. We will just do five-minute rounds. I promised, Mr. Battle, I would get to you next. I just find it incredible that the statutes list a series of alleged criminals for which there is a presumption for detention because of the probability of flight or of some other problem, and yet terrorists are not on that list. I mean, that is such an incredible--well, presumably the statutes were written way back before we were concerned with terrorists, or I am sure that terrorists would have been number one on that list. This disparity makes absolutely no sense to me, and you made the point that it could be very important in certain kinds of cases for terrorists to be added to that list. Mr. Robinson, I don't recall reading in your testimony specific objections to this, but I honestly am not certain whether you had objections so let me just ask you straight out whether you do. Mr. Robinson. I prepared my testimony starting last Friday and I have looked at this provision as well. I just didn't feel sufficiently comfortable to express a strong opinion on the subject of the proposal. I haven't had a chance to study it with great care. Chairman Kyl. Okay. Mr. Robinson. I mean, I-- Chairman Kyl. If you--I am sorry. Go ahead. Mr. Robinson. My only point would be that I was pleased to see that Mr. Battle, notwithstanding the absence of these provisions, did an effective job of making sure that the people who were accused in his district stayed in custody during those proceedings. But I am just not in a position, I think, to have a careful view of it. I think there are some issues that are worth exploring, and I would be happy to mention a couple of those if you would like,. Chairman Kyl. Well, I think it would be worthwhile if you have a chance. I don't want to make any more work for you, but we can leave the record open and any views that you have that you would like to express to us, I am sure we would both like to receive them. You might respond to the specific--and I noted the same thing; in the first example Mr. Battle gave, he said, yes, we got it eventually, but it took three weeks of hearing where we had to disclose a lot of information that we would have much preferred not to have disclosed. If you want to expand on that, Mr. Battle, perhaps that would help lay a greater foundation for this discussion. Mr. Battle. Thank you, Senator. Senator, you mentioned in introducing me that in a prior life I was an Assistant U.S. Attorney. And in that prior life, I prosecuted drug defendants and we had the presumption and it worked very well. It was clear there was a recognition by Congress that at that time those types of defendants presented the kind of problem in our country and in our communities that it was necessary for us to have that type of tool. Obviously, you have alluded to the fact that no less such a tool should be necessary in the context of fighting terrorism. But the point is in the Second Circuit, we are allowed to proceed by proffer in detention hearings, and in that context the focus of the hearing is really on pre-trial release or detention. In our case, two things happened to us that caught us completely by surprise. One, the attention of the issues shifted to the question of whether or not the statute that we were prosecuting these defendants under was constitutional, which we should never have had to deal with at that point in the proceedings. In some sense, while I won't minimize the need for discussions about the strength of the Government's case, we had to go well beyond what I had ever experienced in presenting to the court that which we knew about our case, much of which we wanted to hold close to the vest because the Lackawanna Six case was actually the Lackawanna Eight and we had two defendants who had already fled the country. So we were put in a real position of jeopardy of having to continue to disclose. And because the court could not start with a presumption that then would shift the burden to defendants to come forward and discuss matters related strictly to the matter of release or detention, but we got into all these other focuses, it put our case in jeopardy and it put our agents in jeopardy. Chairman Kyl. I appreciate that. Let me go back to the question of constitutional issues that have been raised to ask both Ms. Brand and Mr. Robinson, are either of you aware of any case in which the use of administrative subpoenas has been found a violation of the Fourth Amendment? Does the court uphold the existence of that authority? Ms. Brand. Thank you. The Supreme Court has held--I am forgetting the year of this decision--that administrative subpoena authorities do not require a probable cause standard, that a relevance standard is sufficient under the Fourth Amendment. So, no, the Supreme Court has never held that an administrative subpoena authority like the one here violates the Fourth Amendment. The Sixth Circuit in an opinion specifically discussing 18 U.S.C. 3486, which is the health care fraud/sexual abuse of children provision, took Supreme Court precedents to hold that that provision also did not violate the Fourth Amendment with its relevance standard. Chairman Kyl. Thank you. Mr. Robinson, are you aware of any other different case? Mr. Robinson. No. I think that is right. I am not so sure you could predict the same result under Congressman Feeney's proposal necessarily, but it may not get tested in light of your proposal. Chairman Kyl. We will hope to make ours the one that works and then we won't have that constitutional issue to worry about. Senator Feingold. Senator Feingold. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Let me just say to Mr. Battle I was going to ask you a question along those same lines about the Lackawanna Six. You know, I am listening carefully about the claims you are making about the problems that this caused for the Government in the disclosing of information, and so on. But I would simply note for the record that this proceeding, in part to your skills and others', was very successful. All the defendants pled guilty and as a part of the plea agreements, all the defendants agreed to fully cooperate with the Government. So I can't help but at least note for the record that the current system seemed to perform pretty darned well in this circumstance. But I do take seriously the specific points you made. Now, let me ask you something different. In both the Senate and the House legislation on pre-trial detention, the definition of terrorism includes an offense that, quote, ``appears by its nature or context to be intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion, or to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction,'' unquote. These definitions seem to be broad enough to include the types of protests that regularly occur in cities across this country. For example, many types of loud and angry protests like those that sometimes occur surrounding WTO meetings, property damage protests such as those committed by members of animal rights groups, and right-to-life protests where members make a human barricade between the street and the abortion clinic might conceivably be covered by this definition. The Attorney General would have the final word on which participants of which political protests could be detained under this proposal. Does the Justice Department really intend to cover political protests in this legislation? Do you see any First Amendment problems with this definition? Mr. Battle. Thank you, Senator. Senator, in our district there is a line of cases that we deal with under a project called EXILE, and that deals with gun prosecutions where we partner with local law enforcement when we bring cases in the Federal context to get sort of more bang for our buck because the statutory scheme allows us to put criminals in jail for longer periods of time for more serious crimes than some of the State statutory schemes allow. In that context, one of the hammers that we have in the Federal system is that we have a better shot at pre-trial detention of those defendants than they have had success with at the State level. But the policy that we have in our office is never to seek pre-trial detention except in the most appropriate cases, and what that means is we don't ask for it in the cases unless, from a factual standpoint, they fit within what the statute requires in a request for pre-trial detention. So in response to your question, what I would say is this: We would ask for pre-trial detention in the appropriate cases depending on the defendant. The focus in pre-trial detention is on the defendant and the facts and circumstances that support such. You may have a defendant that you have described that falls under the definition of international terrorist for which we may move the court for pre-trial detention. We want the ability to do so because in certain circumstances there may be a risk of flight and certainly very much a danger to the community. Senator Feingold. I appreciate the answer, but it struck me that you seem to be suggesting how you would use the powers that are given. What I was more getting at is the language itself and the potential scope of the language in the hands of those who may not be as responsible. Doesn't that give you some concern? Mr. Battle. Well, if I understand your question, I thought you said that the power would lie in the hands of the Attorney General. But actually the power to detain would lie in the hands of the court and the recommendation of whether or not someone is detained would happen at the earliest stages of a proceeding when a defendant is charged. The issue of pre-trial detention is not visited until some time after the arraignment or the initial appearance. Senator Feingold. Wouldn't you concede that this is something of a broadening of the flexibility here, that the AG would only certify this? Mr. Battle. I am not sure I understand your question, Senator. Senator Feingold. The Attorney General certifies that the crime is the type for which the presumption is appropriate, but isn't it somebody else who makes the specific decision about who could be detained? Mr. Battle. The specific decision about detention, from my experience in the field, lies with the magistrate judges and the judicial officers in the Federal system. The statutory scheme that covers pre-trial detention covers a broad range of criminal activity, which we hope will now include statutes that involve terrorism. We use it for drug dealers, we use it in gun cases, we use it in violence cases, we use it in child pornography cases and others of the most serious nature. Senator Feingold. Mr. Battle, you also cited the case of Mr. Asi, who was originally arraigned in 1998. I understand that Mr. Asi turned himself in to Federal authorities last month. At the more recent 2004 bail hearing when the Government argued that Mr. Asi should be detained, Mr. Asi agreed. Are you suggesting that Magistrate Morgan made the wrong decision in 1998? Do you know if the Government appealed the detention ruling, and have you personally reviewed the transcript of the proceeding? Mr. Battle. Senator, apologetically, I do not have as much detailed information as it seems you have about that case. I don't really wish to comment about it at this time. Senator Feingold. Well, do you have any instances where the system has failed us involving a pre-trial detention hearing since Mr. Asi's original pre-trial detention decision in 1998? Mr. Battle. Was your question do I have any-- Senator Feingold. Do you have any instances where the system has failed us? Mr. Battle. None that I am aware of. Senator Feingold. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Kyl. Mr. Robinson might want to add something. Senator Feingold. Mr. Robinson? Mr. Robinson. I was just going to offer a point of very modest personal privilege that Magistrate Morgan was an Assistant U.S. Attorney of mine when I was U.S. Attorney and I just vouch for her. I think she is an outstanding Federal magistrate judge. I haven't read the transcript of that proceeding, but I know she is diligent and does an effective job. I was going to just offer one point. I have read the bail decision in Mr. Battle's case and I think it looks to me to be very carefully and thoughtfully done. I think the one incidental benefit that is worth keeping in mind in terms of the integrity of our criminal justice system is for neutral magistrates to be making decisions in this area. I don't weigh in on this presumption issue yet and I will be happy to get back to it, but I do think the fact that our criminal justice system gives the power to an independent judiciary to make the bail decision, which is after all a constitutional right in this country, is worthwhile as we look around the world. And we can proud of the fact that when we incarcerate people who are presumed innocent in our system, we do it through a process. Sometimes, it takes longer than we might like, and I know the bail process Mr. Battle referred to was lengthy. But nevertheless I think it is something that we can point to with pride and we should be mindful of that. I would also just offer again the notion that in some of these terrorism cases, there is a problem--and I am sure Mr. Battle from his former life as a defender will appreciate it-- that much of the evidence in these cases is derived and procured by the Government. It is classified, and therefore the Government has most of the information in many of these cases, which would make it difficult sometimes for lawyers representing people accused in some of these cases to do an effective job of dealing with the presumption. It is just a factor. As I say, I haven't decided myself because I haven't studied it carefully enough, but these are just a couple of thoughts that occurred to me in response to your question, Senator Kyl. Chairman Kyl. I just want to reiterate what we are talking about here in case anybody has missed it. There is a whole list of crimes in which, when a judge or magistrate makes the decision of whether to hold the person without bail because the person is likely to flee, for example, or could pose a danger to people--there is a whole list of provisions in the Code today that say the presumption is that because of the nature of that crime, is the defendant that, in effect, has the burden of proof that he is not going to flee and therefore shouldn't be held. In most cases, it is the Government's burden of proof that he is more likely to flee, and therefore the bail should be set very high or shouldn't be granted. All we are doing is adding terrorism to that list in which the burden shifts. The arguments are still made by lawyers to a judge, who makes the decision based upon constitutional principles. And all we are doing is saying that of all crimes in the world in which there ought to be a presumption that you might have a problem with this person fleeing or causing a problem, it is in a terrorist case. That is all this legislation seeks to do. So I just wanted to make that clear. I wanted to ask Rachel Brand about the substantive differences, really, if there are any, between grand jury subpoenas and administrative subpoenas. In other words, assuming that the Attorney General develops good guidelines that apply to the FBI, why should we fear more about an administrative subpoena issued here than a grand jury subpoena, which, of course, are issued all the time--I shouldn't say all the time, but are a frequently issued subpoena. Ms. Brand. Thank you. The standards are essentially the same. So, substantively, the two are essentially the same. They both are based on a relevance standard, both grand jury subpoenas and almost all administrative subpoenas. Mr. Robinson suggests that the FBI agents are more suspect, essentially, than Assistant U.S. Attorneys. I would welcome Mr. Battle's comments on the relationship between most U.S. Attorneys' offices and most FBI field offices, but I don't think most prosecutors hold the view that the FBI lacks the professionalism required to utilize this authority responsibly. Like the U.S. Attorney Manual provisions that Mr. Robinson alludes to, the FBI also has its own internal guidelines for the use of the existing administrative subpoena authorities which point out that they should be used sparingly and give other types of guidance about the legality of their use. So I don't think there is any substantive difference between the two. Chairman Kyl. And the person to whom the subpoena is issued can hire counsel? Mr. Brand. The recipient can move to quash or can simply refuse to comply, right. Chairman Kyl. Exactly. Mr. Battle, would you like to comment on this? Mr. Battle. Senator, if I could just interject, I don't want to leave this hearing today with the thought that U.S. Attorneys or Assistant U.S. Attorneys are in any way opposed to the FBI agents having this subpoena authority that we are discussing in great detail today. I can tell you that at one point in the Lackawanna Six case, as I said, we started out with eight and it was a weekend when we obtained the complaint from the Federal judge to arrest them on a Friday evening. On Saturday morning, I was en route to Washington to engage in some matters related to the case and I was traveling with the FBI agent in charge of the Buffalo office. The agents were back in Buffalo attempting to round up the six that we knew were in the Buffalo area, and we learned as we boarded the plane that they had five of the six in custody. Two, we think, were abroad, and one was somewhere; we didn't know where that person was. The agents were in the field. It was a Saturday morning. My office was closed, the courts were closed, and I would like to think that an FBI agent in the field would have had the authority, if necessary, to exercise the appropriate power and, if necessary, have the power to get an administrative subpoena to gather evidence to find the individual that we could not find that we believed was still in the States and in our community. Ultimately, we did find that person because of good police work, but that is something that could have presented a problem for us. So I just don't want that to get lost at this time. Chairman Kyl. I appreciate it. Senator Feingold. Senator Feingold. Mr. Chairman, I just have one more question today. Mr. Robinson, the proposals for a new administrative subpoena and for new pre-trial detention rules would vest more powers in the hands of the administration and take power from the courts and grand juries. This seems to be part of a pattern for this administration. Do you think that giving the Attorney General and law enforcement more and more authority at the expense of the courts is a positive trend and bodes well for the fight against terrorism and for constitutional protections? Mr. Robinson. I think I would have to say not necessarily, and you have to look specifically at the provisions. But let me take this opportunity to say that I have nothing myself but the highest regard for FBI agents and have worked closely with them. Director Mueller was a colleague of mine at the Justice Department. I have high regard. He held the job that I held there. One of my colleagues in my current law firm is the former Deputy General Counsel of the FBI. It is important to recognize that the roles of FBI agents and Federal prosecutors are different, and I think the system recognizes that. I am talking about a cooperative relationship that is important. Many FBI agents are lawyers; they are skilled lawyers. Many are not. Many of them are familiar with Federal criminal law and the provisions of the United States Attorneys Manual. As we go forward with looking at these proposals, I think it is important to have these guidelines in place to make sure that we don't create a parallel system that doesn't end-around this process. I don't think it will help law enforcement in the end. This is an honest disagreement, but I think it is a factor to be taken into consideration as we move forward in creating something that could be a very different method of operation than we have been familiar with. I know 9/11 has changed everything and it certainly requires us to consider ideas like this, and I think it is appropriate. I congratulate the Chairman for making this kind of a proposal and for the willingness to consider these competing ideas and coming up with the kind of legislation that will be a real aid to law enforcement in the fight on terrorism, which is something that we certainly all share as a goal. Senator Feingold. Thank you. Chairman Kyl. Thank you, and I want to thank all of you. Would either of the other two witnesses like to make any comments in closing? I want to express my appreciation to you for supporting my legislation, by the way, and expressing that. Mr. Battle, did you have anything else that you wanted to add? Mr. Battle. Mr. Chairman, I would just like to say thank you for allowing me to testify. Chairman Kyl. I just want to conclude by making this point. Senator Feingold and I are in complete agreement on two things; they are very general propositions. The first is that we have got to do our best in this war on terror, as well as fighting other criminals. And we also have to adhere to our Constitution and ensure that everyone is treated with the utmost of fairness. Within those two broad agreements, there will necessarily be some disagreements. We aren't good lawyers if we wouldn't find some way of disagreeing with each other about precisely how to go about doing this. It is my intention in pursuing both of these pieces of legislation to get it right, but to get it; in other words, to ensure that we have given every tool that can be given to our law enforcement authorities, not in any way that it can be abused, but because of the nature of our enemy. It just seems to me that when you can get records with an administrative subpoena in a health fraud case, you ought to be able to do that in a terrorism case. If you can hold a drug dealer, you ought to be able to hold a terrorist. So these seem to me to be pretty minimal approaches that nevertheless could be helpful. I think the point was made that it might be relatively rare, but I remember another case that was rare when Agent Rowley complained about the fact that she couldn't get the lawyers back at headquarters to issue a subpoena to go into Zacarias Moussaoui's computers. I actually had to agree with those who defended the decision that they didn't want to seek the FISA warrant because I didn't think they could get it because he didn't technically meet the definition of a person against whom such a warrant could be issued. Now, some people thought otherwise, but I think the law was clear enough that that would not have been granted, which is why we here in the Senate passed a fix to that that would have covered a case like Moussaoui as well. That bill unfortunately languishes in the House of Representatives right now. It just seems to me that, therefore, there are consequences to our actions if we don't use every tool that is available. And as long as they are constitutional--the courts have declared these kinds of procedures constitutional--we ought to be as aggressive as we can in dealing with this particular kind of enemy, while always asking the tough questions, the double and triple checking that people like Senator Feingold will always do to ensure that we do it right. We are going to hold the record open for questions until next Tuesday at 5:00 p.m. I would also invite the witnesses, if they would like to add anything to their testimony, they are certainly welcome to do that. Senator Feingold, I really express my appreciation to you for being able to be here today. Senator Feingold. Thank you. Chairman Kyl. Let me just say one other thing. I will make available for the record, and to give to you, Senator Feingold, right now, at least 12 hearings covering the PATRIOT Act. We have tried to hold oversight over that PATRIOT Act, some of which has been very explicit and thorough. Others have touched on it in one way or another. Senator Feingold. Well, Mr. Chairman, let me just say that I let it go the first time you said it, but I don't believe my comments had to do with the Committee not holding hearings. Chairman Kyl. I misunderstood that. Senator Feingold. My comments had to do with the fact that the administration has not responded to Senators' letters requesting information, which I find deeply disturbing. Chairman Kyl. I apologize. I misunderstood. Senator Feingold. I am aware of this list and I have probably been at almost every one of those. Chairman Kyl. Yes. I misunderstood. Senator Feingold. I appreciate your efforts and my point was not directed at you at all. Chairman Kyl. We will keep holding oversight hearings. Again, I thank all of the witnesses. This was a very good hearing because we had very good witnesses, and we appreciate the interest of all of you in the audience. The hearing will be adjourned. 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