<DOC> [109th Congress House Hearings] [From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access] [DOCID: f:29331.wais] CUTTING OUT THE WASTE: AN OVERVIEW OF H.R. 5766, THE GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY ACT; AND H.R. 3282, THE ABOLISHMENT OF OBSOLETE AGENCIES AND FEDERAL SUNSET ACT OF 2005 ======================================================================= HEARING before the COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED NINTH CONGRESS SECOND SESSION ON H.R. 5766 TO PROVIDE FOR THE ESTABLISHMENT OF FEDERAL REVIEW COMMISSIONS TO REVIEW AND MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS ON IMPROVING THE OPERATIONS, EFFECTIVENESS, AND EFFICIENCY OF FEDERAL PROGRAMS AND AGENCIES, AND TO REQUIRE A SCHEDLE FOR SUCH REVIEWS OF ALL FEDERAL AGENCIES AND PROGRAMS AND ON H.R. 3282 TO PROVIDE FOR THE PERIODIC REVIEW OF THE EFFICIECY AND PUBLIC NEED FOR FEDERAL AGENCIES, TO ESTABLISH A COMMISSION FOR THE PURPOSE OF REVIEWING THE EFFICIENCY AND PUBLIC NEED OF SUCH AGENCIES, AND TO PROVIDE FOR THE ABOLISHMENT OF AGENCIES FOR WHICH A PUBLIC NEED DOES NOT EXIST __________ JULY 19, 2006 __________ Serial No. 109-165 __________ Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Reform Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.gpoaccess.gov/congress/ index.html http://www.house.gov/reform ______ U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 29-331 WASHINGTON : 2006 _____________________________________________________________________________ For Sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512-1800; (202) 512ÿ091800 Fax: (202) 512ÿ092250 Mail: Stop SSOP, Washington, DC 20402ÿ090001 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM TOM DAVIS, Virginia, Chairman CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Connecticut HENRY A. WAXMAN, California DAN BURTON, Indiana TOM LANTOS, California ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida MAJOR R. OWENS, New York JOHN M. McHUGH, New York EDOLPHUS TOWNS, New York JOHN L. MICA, Florida PAUL E. KANJORSKI, Pennsylvania GIL GUTKNECHT, Minnesota CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland STEVEN C. LaTOURETTE, Ohio DENNIS J. KUCINICH, Ohio TODD RUSSELL PLATTS, Pennsylvania DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois CHRIS CANNON, Utah WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri JOHN J. DUNCAN, Jr., Tennessee DIANE E. WATSON, California CANDICE S. MILLER, Michigan STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts MICHAEL R. TURNER, Ohio CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, Maryland DARRELL E. ISSA, California LINDA T. SANCHEZ, California JON C. PORTER, Nevada C.A. DUTCH RUPPERSBERGER, Maryland KENNY MARCHANT, Texas BRIAN HIGGINS, New York LYNN A. WESTMORELAND, Georgia ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of PATRICK T. McHENRY, North Carolina Columbia CHARLES W. DENT, Pennsylvania ------ VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont JEAN SCHMIDT, Ohio (Independent) BRIAN P. BILBRAY, California David Marin, Staff Director Lawrence Halloran, Deputy Staff Director Teresa Austin, Chief Clerk Phil Barnett, Minority Chief of Staff/Chief Counsel C O N T E N T S ---------- Page Hearing held on July 19, 2006.................................... 1 Text of H.R. 5766................................................ 2 Text of H.R. 3282................................................ 21 Statement of: Brady, Hon. Kevin, a Representative in Congress from the State of Texas............................................. 70 Horney, James R., senior fellow, Center on Budget and Policy Priorities; and Charles M. Loveless, director of legislation, American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees [AFSCME]............................... 99 Horney, James R.......................................... 99 Loveless, Charles M...................................... 105 Tiahrt, Hon. Todd, a Representative in Congress from the State of Kansas............................................ 56 Letters, statements, etc., submitted for the record by: Brady, Hon. Kevin, a Representative in Congress from the State of Texas, prepared statement of...................... 72 Cummings, Hon. Elijah E., a Representative in Congress from the State of Maryland, prepared statement of............... 113 Davis, Chairman Tom, a Representative in Congress from the State of Virginia, prepared statement of................... 42 Horney, James R., senior fellow, Center on Budget and Policy Priorities: Prepared statement of.................................... 102 Written paper on sunset commission proposals............. 91 Lantos, Hon. Tom, a Representative in Congress from the State of California, prepared statement of....................... 54 Loveless, Charles M., director of legislation, American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees [AFSCME], prepared statement of............................ 107 Porter, Hon. Jon C., a Representative in Congress from the State of Nevada, prepared statement of..................... 45 Tiahrt, Hon. Todd, a Representative in Congress from the State of Kansas, prepared statement of..................... 59 Watson, Hon. Diane E., a Representative in Congress from the State of California, prepared statement of................. 85 Waxman, Hon. Henry A., a Representative in Congress from the State of California, prepared statement of................. 48 CUTTING OUT THE WASTE: AN OVERVIEW OF H.R. 5766, THE GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY ACT; AND H.R. 3282, THE ABOLISHMENT OF OBSOLETE AGENCIES AND FEDERAL SUNSET ACT OF 2005 ---------- WEDNESDAY, JULY 19, 2006 House of Representatives, Committee on Government Reform, Washington, DC. The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:03 a.m., in room 2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Tom Davis (chairman of the committee) presiding. Present: Representatives Tom Davis, Gutknecht, Porter, Dent, Foxx, Schmidt, Waxman, Lantos, Maloney, Cummings, Kucinich, Watson, Lynch, Ruppersberger, and Higgins. Staff present: Ellen Brown, legislative director and senior policy counsel; Mason Alinger, deputy legislative director; Rob White, communications director; Teresa Austin, chief clerk; Michael Galindo, deputy clerk; Kristin Amerling, minority general counsel; Michelle Ash, minority chief legislative counsel; Krista Boyd, minority counsel; Mark Stephenson, minority professional staff member; Earley Green, minority chief clerk; and Jean Gosa, minority assistant clerk. Chairman Tom Davis. The committee will come to order. Good morning. I want to thank everybody for coming. The purpose of today's hearing is to discuss two specific legislative proposals that have been introduced to this Congress to improve the operation and effectiveness of programs and agencies in the Federal Government. The first bill H.R. 5766, the Government Efficiency Act, which was introduced by Representative Tiahrt earlier this month, the legislation would authorize the establishment of a bipartisan Federal Review Commission to study whether a specific aspect of Federal Government operations would function more efficiently and effectively if some or all of the relevant Federal programs and agencies were reorganized, consolidated, abolished, expanded or transferred. Legislative proposals drafted by the bipartisan commissions would then be considered in Congress pursuant to expedited procedures. [The text of H.R. 5766 follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.001 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.002 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.003 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.004 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.005 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.006 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.007 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.008 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.009 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.010 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.011 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.012 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.013 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.014 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.015 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.016 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.017 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.018 Chairman Tom Davis. The second bill, H.R. 3282, the Abolishment of Obsolete Agencies and Federal Sunset Act of 2005, introduced by Representative Kevin Brady, this legislation would establish a bipartisan Federal agency sunset commission to review and evaluate the efficiency and public need for every Federal agency on a periodic basis and report its recommendations to Congress. The legislation would require the Federal agency to be abolished within 1 year of the commission's review unless Congress either reauthorized the agency or extended the deadline for abolishment. [The text of H.R. 3282 follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.019 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.020 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.021 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.022 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.023 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.024 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.025 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.026 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.027 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.028 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.029 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.030 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.031 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.032 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.033 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.034 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.035 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.036 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.037 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.038 Chairman Tom Davis. This will be the eighth hearing conducted in the committee in recent years to discuss the need for a legislative tool that would authorize limited reorganizations of the executive branch intended to improve the operations and effectiveness of the Federal Government. Three hearings having been held to discuss the need to develop legislation to address overlap and duplication governmentwide; four case study hearings have been held to assess the extent of overlap and duplication in specific areas of Federal operations. After spending the last 3.5 years exploring various approaches to eliminating the overlapping duplication, we are here today to discuss the merits of two particular proposals aimed at addressing the specific issues and to pose questions to the bill sponsors about the specifics of their proposals. The purpose is to give members in this committee an opportunity to ask their questions and raise their concerns before we reconvene tomorrow morning to conduct a business meeting to consider these two proposals. I would now like to introduce our witnesses. Our first panel, Representative Todd Tiahrt and Representative Kevin Brady, have long championed the need to reduce waste, fraud and mismanagement in the Federal Government, and I applaud the witnesses. The second panel of witnesses includes James Horney, senior fellow from the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities; and Charles Loveless, legislative director for the American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees. I want to just welcome all of the witnesses to today's hearing, and I look forward to hearing their testimony. Any other Members who wish to speak. Mr. Ruppersberger. [The prepared statement of Chairman Tom Davis follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.039 Mr. Ruppersberger. First, I want to acknowledge Mr. Tiahrt and Mr. Brady. You are focussing on issues of fiscal responsibility and accountability. I might not agree exactly with your bill, but I applaud you for moving ahead. Mr. Chairman, let me first thank you for having the hearing. I support efforts to seek to evaluate programs on their merits and increase government efficiencies. However, I have concerns about the two bills before us today. The lack of a truly nonpartisan commission leads me to believe that recommendations made by the commission could be politically biased and therefore result in program determinations that are not based on necessity or merit. Some supporters argue that these sunset commissions would operate like the BRAC commission which has been successful in consolidating our military bases. However, BRAC commissioners, while appointed by the President, must be confirmed by the President--or by the Senate. This is a congressional check that is lacking in these two bills before us. In addition, I have concerns about who is the most appropriate person or group of people who set policy and evaluate some very highly technical and sensitive Federal programs. While commissioners might have some expertise, they would certainly not be experts in all Federal programs. This is why we have a committee system here in Congress. Committees allow Members to develop expertise in issues and programs that fall within their committee's jurisdiction. The question becomes, do we want people who may not have any expertise in any particular issue evaluate the usefulness of a certain Federal program? And whose role should it be to do oversight of Homeland Security and intelligence programs in the agencies? And I know Mr. Tiahrt is on the Intelligence Committee. I believe the answer to both is, Congress. I am looking forward to hearing your discussions, but unfortunately, I have to go to an Intelligence hearing. Thank you. Chairman Tom Davis. Any other Members wish to make opening statements? Mr. Porter. Mr. Porter. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, appreciate you having the hearing today. And to our colleagues that are here sponsoring the bills, as you know, as subcommittee chairman, I have had a number of hearings myself on some duplicate programs, and I don't remember the exact details, but it seems to me there are six or seven different agencies looking at frozen pizzas across the country. One looks at pepperoni. One looks at cheese. One looks at hamburger. And as we had these hearings, these different agencies would defend their right to inspect those pizzas, and it really amazes me that we have so many duplicate programs. And I believe a lot of our Federal agencies are convinced, in fact, that we need duplications. And maybe there are times when that should happen, but after numerous hearings, listening to the arguments for and against, time and time again, there would be examples of programs that are duplicate and should not be removed entirely from our system, but those that are duplicated should be consolidated and certainly will do a better job serving the public. One of the areas, if I recall, is 70 or 80 programs in our school system that are administered by three or four different agencies that are duplications across the country. So I could go on and on and on and on, and I just appreciate having this opportunity, and I would hope that this Congress would not let the perfect get in the way of legislation. There are those that agree and disagree with some of the process and procedures, but we owe it to the taxpayers of this country to make sure that we run our government as efficiently as possible. So I thank you for this hearing, and look forward to the testimony. Thank you. [The prepared statement of Hon. Jon C. Porter follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.040 Chairman Tom Davis. Thank you. Our distinguished ranking member has arrived. Mr. Waxman. Mr. Waxman. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. This hearing is on two legislative proposals that have back door assaults on the laws that protect the health, safety and security of American families. The first bill introduced by Representative Brady, H.R. 3282, would automatically abolish every Federal agency within 12 years. It would--it just would-- it is so amazing, it is worth repeating: It would automatically abolish every single Federal agency. The title of the bill is, Abolishment of Obsolete Agencies Act, but it doesn't identify obsolete agencies for abolition. It sets an extermination schedule for every Federal agency. Is the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, which runs the Medicare and Medicaid programs that provide healthcare to millions of seniors, children and the disabled, obsolete? Is the Environmental Protection agency, which protects Americans from air and water pollution, obsolete? Is the Social Security Administration obsolete? Or the Occupational Health and Safety Administration, the Department of Veterans Affairs or the Department of Education? The answer is obvious. These Federal agencies aren't obsolete. They play a vital role in protecting the welfare of all Americans, yet all of them would be eliminated under the Brady bill. I know there are Republicans who want to eliminate the EPA. The House Speaker, Newt Gingrich, said he wanted Medicare to shrivel on the vine. President Bush proposed cutting Social Security and eliminating important veterans' benefits, but none of these proposals could ever pass Congress. The public support for the programs is simply too strong, and you simply need to look at the Department of Education. I think the Contract for America--or as we call it, the Contract on America--called for the abolition of the Department of Education, and yet now that the Republicans have the majority and control over all the branches of government, I haven't seen any proposals to abolish that department. So the Brady bill is a clever effort to achieve the same results through the back door. Today we are going to hear a lot of rhetoric about streamlining government and reducing waste, and we are going to be told that passing this bill is part of a Republican effort to make government more efficient. No one in Congress has done more than I have to rout out waste, fraud and abuse. Just last month I released a report identifying 118 Federal contracts with over $750 billion that are rife with waste, fraud, abuse and mismanagement, but not a single Republican has approached me about the study or suggested working together to eliminate this pervasive squandering of taxpayer dollars. The real agenda here isn't wasteful spending. It is an effort to hold a legislative gun to the head of a number of important government priorities. If that bill passes, Republicans will say to Democrats, either you agree to weaken the environmental protections or privatize medical--Medicare and Social Security or slash veterans' benefits or we will sit back and allow the agencies that run these programs to expire. It is harder when you have a bicameral legislature to get a bill passed, which is what would have to happen to keep these agencies alive. A minority of a minority can often threaten a filibuster, block action, and that would mean that there would be an automatic expiration of these agencies. The Tiahrt bill, H.R. 5766, is less extreme, but its objectives are the same. Under this bill, there is no sunset. Instead, unelected commissions are created that can recommend abolishing or changing the function of Federal agencies. Then the recommendations must be voted on by Congress under fast- track procedures. The tiered bill is a massive transfer of power from the legislative body to the executive branch, and like the Brady bill, it puts key health and safety programs in constant jeopardy. Mr. Chairman, I believe these bills are badly flawed, but I am glad we are having this opportunity to explore their consequences. While the bills are flawed, the two gentlemen who offered them are very fine gentlemen, and I have a high regard for them, so I wouldn't want them to take my comments in any way personally, but I do disagree with them on this legislation. And I am especially grateful that you accommodated our suggestion about the witnesses for the second panel, and I do want to correct--because I think credibility's important--I am not sure that abolishing the Department of Education was a contract, but it might have been one of the priorities for Speaker Gingrich and other---- Chairman Tom Davis. It was a subcontract for some people. Mr. Waxman. Subcontract. It was a contract out, a contract on the Department of Education. But, Mr. Chairman, that outlines why we feel as strongly as we do on this issue. [The prepared statement of Hon. Henry A. Waxman follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.041 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.042 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.043 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.044 Chairman Tom Davis. Mr. Waxman, you have been consistent in that, and we appreciate all your support on both pieces of legislation. I think we could have a spirited debate. I would say to Todd and Kevin, you have a lot of convincing to do in your opening testimony to bring Mr. Waxman over. We are trying to build this by consensus. I am not sure we will be able to do it on this issue, but I look forward to working with you on the other matters that you brought up. Do you want to say anything, Tom? We will introduce Mr. Lantos very quickly for an opening statement. Mr. Lantos. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Today this committee is going to hear from some of our colleagues about legislation that would create commissions to abolish or reorganize Federal agencies and programs. And there is no Member of Congress for whom I have higher regard and more personal affection than my friend Kevin Brady. Opening statements will be made about trimming fat from the Federal budget, but the sad truth is that these bills are nothing more than the outsourcing of the work of the Congress, and it will deprive this body of its constitutional role as lawmaker and the check on the executive branch. Instead of zealous oversight by Congress, the two pieces of legislation before us aim to create an unelected board to decide which agencies or programs within agencies are to be terminated. The system our Founding Fathers created over two centuries ago would give way to something that Kafka would like, a faceless body of unelected and unaccountable hatchet men working under the cloak of darkness. I recognize, Mr. Chairman, that we in Congress have many obligations and never seem to have enough time to do all the people's work. After all, today is the 200th day of the calendar year, and despite that, under the present management, we have been in session only 62 days. Mr. Chairman, I am a professional economist, and I am sure that you will agree that a schedule that has us out of Washington so much of the time is not very efficient or economical in terms of the use of our resources. But I do not believe that a potentially unconstitutional delegation of our jobs is necessary to fix this inefficiency. I believe it is absurd to assume that a short-lived commission charged with reviewing multiple programs will have either the reach or the expertise of a standing congressional committee and its staff. After reviewing this legislation, I was disturbed to think about the programs that have had such a profound impact on my constituents and yours could be cut in secret by an unelected and unresponsive board. For example, Head Start education program could be terminated, and not by the Education and Workforce Committee but by an unelected commission without public input and bypassing regular order. Supporters of these commissions often liken them to the Base Realignment and Closure Commission or the Greenspan Social Security Commission of the 1980's. Unfortunately, there is no resemblance between these important and necessary commissions and this unnecessary and probably unconstitutional usurpation of congressional oversight which we are hearing about today. This proposal may create a sunset commission, but it should really be called a midnight commission because it would work in the dark of night to eliminate programs which some Members of Congress despise but lack the political will to change. This legislation is nothing more than the outsourcing of congressional oversight, and I hope my colleagues will see through this charade and turn the lights out on these proposals. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [The prepared statement of Hon. Tom Lantos follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.045 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.046 Chairman Tom Davis. Thank you for your statement. I will just note, Congressman, that the Congress did outsource the 9/ 11 Commission, which came back with a number of recommendations that were then enacted, and on Katrina, the other side wanted to outsource that. We felt that was congressional. I guess it depends on the issue and where you stand on this. We will have a very spirited debate on this. Mr. Gutknecht. Mr. Gutknecht. Mr. Chairman, thank you. Where you stand depends largely on where you sit. And let me just say--and I suspect I may be stealing some of their thunder--I believe it was Mark Twain who once observed that the closest thing to eternal life is a government program, and we have tried a number of occasions to try to figure out how we can eliminate some of these unnecessary and duplicative programs, programs that have do have a constituency but, in the broader picture, really serve very little in terms of public purpose. And so I want to congratulate both my colleagues for being here today. I think these are issues that deserve serious consideration, and I certainly do not agree with my colleague from California that this is going to be done in the dead of night. This is going to be done with plenty of input from lots of people. But by going outside the political arena only slightly, it gives us an opportunity to succeed where heretofore, since 1995, 1996, we really haven't had a whole lot in terms of victories in the way of eliminating some of these programs that have probably outlived their usefulness. So I congratulate my colleagues for bringing this forward, and I thank you, Mr. Chairman, for having this hearing. Chairman Tom Davis. Thank you very much. Mr. Tiahrt, we will start with you. At least you can convince me and Mr. Gutknecht. We are here. STATEMENT OF HON. TODD TIAHRT, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF KANSAS Mr. Tiahrt. I am looking forward to the opportunity to convince not only Mr. Waxman and Mr. Lantos but other members of--those who are in adversary to this concept. I would like unanimous consent to submit testimony for the record. Chairman Tom Davis. Without objection, so ordered. Mr. Tiahrt. Mr. Chairman, over the past 12 years, my time in Congress, I have looked at several different methods of trying to gain supplemental help for Congress to do its job of oversight. When I review my schedule on an annual basis, I realize that I have a very full schedule, and I know that it is true for each and every Member of Congress. We have trips to our home districts. We have instances that arise unannounced. We have legislation that carries us well into the night. We have opportunities to run for re-election or get rehired every 2 years, and it keeps our schedule very full. And what is sacrificed with this busy-ness that goes on in our daily schedules is the ability to do proper oversight. There are many examples within the Federal Government of why there is a need for supplemental help in the oversight process. We heard earlier the gentleman from Nevada, Mr. Porter, talk about how many different people inspect pizzas across the United States. We had for over a century somebody who was assigned to the Federal Government to do nothing but taste tea, and certainly as the chairman has pointed out, we have had, since Katrina, attempts for oversight of FEMA that have yet to be I think as productive as we would like. Certainly, if you look at FEMA and all of the problems that were addressed that came out of that event, we realize that FEMA had no idea where all their supplies were or what procedures were in place or what was needed at the time, and there are materials that they purchased to date that are still unused because of one reason or another. When I think of how the private sector has advanced, FedEx and UPS. If you send a parcel with them, you can go online and check to see the position of that parcel any moment in time and know whether it has been delivered or whether it is en route and where it is en route. FEMA couldn't even find out how many bottles of water they had. If you look at Ocean Spray, they can track a bottle of cranberry juice across the Nation. They know how many are in stores, what stores they are. They know when it is time to refill an order. FEMA hasn't kept track of all the trailer houses they have purchased yet. There is a need for oversight. Congress simply doesn't have the time to do it. So the need is very real. This is a structure. This bill is a structure to set up the ability for us to have supplemental oversight. It consists of three members appointed by the President, four members that are taken after consultation with the majority--the Speaker of the House, the minority leader in the House, and the majority leader of the Senate and minority leader in the Senate. So there is congressional input on the selection of the committee. In addition to that, there is an opportunity for four ex officio members to attend the hearings, be part of the process, that are Members of Congress. For example, if it had to do with government oversight, the two ex officio members from the House could be Chairman Davis and Ranking Member Waxman who could be part of the process. Again, congressional input in the process. Chairman Tom Davis. Does it pay anything? Mr. Tiahrt. No. These are not--but you could put in for overtime as we do when we vote late. This committee would exist for up to a year, depending on the time necessary. They would be awarded staff, but these are voluntary positions. These are nonpaid positions. The staff, of course, would be paid, but extensions would be picked up for those members who are serving on this commission. It would be given the time and the authority to investigate properly any of the agencies or programs that they are looking at. These programs, by the way, are selected by either an Executive order from the President or they can be selected by a resolution from either the House or the Senate. Once that is put into place, the commission is formed. They are selected. They spend a period of time investigating the program, and then they would return to Congress with a recommendation. This recommendation would then go back through the congressional process of going through a committee for a specific amount of time. It could be amended, or it could not be amended. It will come to the House either with a recommendation or without a recommendation from the committee. But, again, Congress is involved in this process. Some of the criticism I heard this morning is outsourcing Congress. This is not outsourcing Congress. This is entwining Congress in the supplemental effort to have oversight of Congress. Another comment I heard was massive transfer of power. This is not a massive transfer of power. Nothing gets off the floor of the House unless it receives a majority vote. Nothing gets out of committee either with or without a recommendation or with or without amendments unless it has a majority vote in the committee. So it very much inserts Congress in this process from the time it is formed until the time it is passed onto both houses and to the President's desk. So I think what we have--and again, this is a structure. It is something that can be applied for different ideas or different problems that Congress faces over the next period of time. It is a framework. It is an ability for us to assist our job in oversight. It gives us necessary tools, and I would hope that the committee can successfully pass it onto the floor. [The prepared statement of Hon. Todd Tiahrt follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.047 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.048 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.049 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.050 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.051 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.052 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.053 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.054 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.055 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.056 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.057 Chairman Tom Davis. Thank you very much, Mr. Tiahrt. Mr. Brady. STATEMENT OF HON. KEVIN BRADY, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF TEXAS Mr. Brady. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Cummings, Mr. Gutknecht, for the opportunity to testify today. I think this is the third opportunity I have had to testify before this committee over the past 10 years. I spent a considerable amount of time visiting with Members about the sunset commission, educating about how it works in the 24 States that use it, and we are always looking for opportunities to improve it, and I, too, would like to have consent to submit my written testimony. Chairman Tom Davis. Without objection. Mr. Brady. So I can be a little more brief. If there is an area where both parties can agree on, it ought to be that we can make this government run more efficiently. The programs ought not duplicate themselves. Our taxpayers ought to get the best bang for the buck, and it is not a Republican issue or a Democrat issue but a bipartisan issue to try to get the most out of our precious tax dollars. The sunset commission is a bipartisan approach that seeks to do that year after year to trim this government, to streamline it, to make it work better for the taxpayers. This is not a crash diet. It is, take off pounds sensibly month after month, year after year, until we make this government run; make it just as healthy and just as fit and just as efficient as we in a bipartisan way can do it. Sunset commission is proven. It is thoughtful, and here is how it works. Sunset commission is comprised of 12 members appointed by the majority, the Speaker and the majority leader of the Senate and equally divided with the consent of the minority. These 12 members must be equally bipartisan, not with the recommendation of the minority; the consent, the agreement of the minority. And that is because when Congressman Jim Turner and I, and Congressman Lloyd Doggett and I, and a number of us worked on sunset issues in the State legislature and in looking at the 24 States that already do it, creating a truly bipartisan commission made up not just of outside members, but in this case, 8 of the 12 will be legislators themselves, Congressmen themselves, we know that is the best way long term. We want the sunset commission to work, regardless of who is in charge around here, regardless of who is in the White House. The commission sets a schedule with the consent of Congress, puts a sunset date on every Federal agency that we deem. Our belief is that there ought not be any sacred cows. No agency runs as efficiently as it ought to. We want a model to justify its operations, its programs and how it serves the people. There ought not be sacred cows. And that is in truth how it has worked on the State level as well as very effectively. For the period that the agency is up for sunset review, the commission examines it. It looks at key issues: How efficient is it? What is the public need today, not the need 80 or 100 years ago? What type of public service are we providing? What type of customer service are we providing? What type of public input do they regularly bring to their operations? Let's examine and measure how effective they are in responding to the Freedom of Information Act; how effective they are in providing equal opportunities to its workers; what type of programs they have that they duplicate for themselves; all of these, again, looking to a means to streamline, to identify duplication to make things run better. I keep saying this is a proven method because it has worked in 24 States for more than three decades. States like California, like Texas, and it is sort of hard to describe as extreme or radical a program that has worked for more than three decades in governments, Republican and Democrat State governments across this country, and it has proven its value. Texas, what I saw firsthand, Texas runs a good sunset commission. Over the years, it has abolished 52 State agencies, saved a little less than $1 billion and is strongly bipartisan. In fact, before this committee, Mr. Chairman, we have had both Democrat and Republican leaders of that sunset commission come here to testify as to its value. And at the Federal level, where on average every Federal program duplicates five others, we are simply at the time with this deficit and with this war, with the need to reduce the tax burden on American families, we just may need to make sure that we are running as efficiently as possible. And so I will conclude with this: Some people say we ought not make agencies justify their existence, but the truth of the matter is that every Member of Congress on this dais is sunset every 2 years. The President is sunset every 4; the Senate every 6. As we speak, there are hundreds of State agencies across the country justifying their existence, and each day in America, thousands of small businesses go out of existence because they did not serve those that they sought to serve and have a need for it. I believe this will be the first time that, in a bipartisan way, we can say to ourselves, let's put up or shut up; produce or leave; let's put money toward the programs that truly serve the taxpayers and then not a dime to the programs that don't. The sunset commission is proven. I would urge support, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. [The prepared statement of Hon. Kevin Brady follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.058 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.059 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.060 Chairman Tom Davis. Thank you. Kevin, let me just start out by asking you, Mr. Waxman's assertion that, in 12 years, all these programs get abolished. Can you explain that? Mr. Brady. Yes, well, in truth, it doesn't work that way at all. What you want to do is set up a thoughtful schedule where you can look at each agency and not just by itself, which Congress tends to do, but grouping agencies by function so that you can group agencies across a broader field. That is what really that schedule drives at. The reason for a sunset date isn't so Congress will act. The truth of the matter is, we have had a lot of different studies both by Members and by agencies, but what do we do with those studies that help identify efficiencies? Rarely do we pick them off the shelf. The sunset date forces Congress in a sense to make sure we are looking at these key issues; that is all. Chairman Tom Davis. To both of you, I mean, these ideas--to give Mr. Waxman's arguments some credence--I mean, these are really born out of frustration of Congress's inability and the administration's to work regular order to try to cull out ineffective programs; isn't that correct? So we look at extraordinary circumstances that maybe will work because we haven't been able to do the job. Mr. Tiahrt. Well, the ship of state is a very large vessel. It is like an aircraft carrier. Members of Congress are like people in rowboats. And to get it to change direction means an awful lot of rowboats. This is a way for us to sort of increase the size of our vessel and get a little more help in trying to change the government to be a little more efficient. If you look at our track record over the last generation, Congress has done very poorly at oversight, and it is just a simple fact that we don't have the time to do the oversight we need to do. These are supplemental tools that will help us with that, and I think it has risen out of a sense of frustration because many efforts have gone forward. We have had the Grace Commission; we have had other commissions that haven't had the ability to get things done. Both these proposals have some ability to get things done by imposing some form of milestone to accomplish that task. So I think there--a good step in the right direction. I think they will be used by both sides regardless of who is in power to help this government save money and use it where it has a higher priority. Mr. Brady. To mix metaphors, Mr. Chairman, I am convinced that, if Congress were a manufacturing plant, we would manufacture spending; that is what we are designed to do. If we want to manufacture savings and efficiency, we have to retool the plant a bit, and I keep stressing this. We have to do it in a bipartisan way, long term, over the years. We just can't be building mini vans and then hope that we can build a more energy-efficient car. You actually have to take steps, and in the design of Congress, we tend to look, as you know on this committee, we tend to look at the trees because that is our jurisdiction. Sunset gives an opportunity to look at the forest as well. Chairman Tom Davis. Now, to be candid, only 39 percent of Federal spending is in the area that would be looked at. Is that correct? You have another 61 percent, at least under today's budget, interest on the debt and entitlement programs that we don't look at here. Is that---- Mr. Brady. Yes. And one thing about the sunset commission is that, again, I would encourage to hold all agencies under sunset review because you also look at how those services deliver. Are we delivering them to the people when they need them on time, efficiently, and that is key. Chairman Tom Davis. Just to try to get a scope. We are not after entitlements here. That is another problem and issue that is going to have to be faced. Mr. Brady. Exactly. This is not the services. This is how well we provide these services. Chairman Tom Davis. Mr. Tiahrt. Mr. Tiahrt. The Government Efficiency Act that I am proposing here does have the ability to look at some areas of government that are mandatory that are not doing well. For example, in the State of Kansas today, one out of four Medicaid payments goes to the wrong address. It is in some fashion incorrect. Many aren't getting to the people that need to be paid. So that is something I believe we should be looking at. Why is the State of Kansas or other States so inefficient in distributing Medicaid funding? It should be, if we have somebody who qualifies, they should receive payment, and it is not happening today in my State, and so I think that would be one area where we could move forward in an area that quite often is protected by parochial interest, but this would allow us to be more efficient even in areas that are considered mandatory. Chairman Tom Davis. Mr. Cummings. Mr. Cummings. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I will read my statement, and then ask questions if I have time. I want to thank you for holding this important hearing on these two legislative proposals. The Government Efficiency Act and the Abolishment of Obsolete Agencies and Federal Sunset Act, and I am going to ask Mr. Tiahrt and Mr. Brady to comment on one of my comments. They have been touted by the office as a way to oversee the work of the executive branch. I thought that was our job. Supporters of these so-called sunset bills present this as a good government issue. Pointing to jurisdictional overlaps in the Federal Government, they claim that commissions could be used to inform Members of Congress of the inefficiencies that exist. As a member of this committee, I have consistently supported efforts to make sure government runs as effectively and efficiently as possible, but I am not in the dark when it comes to the true intent behind the sunset legislation. Under both proposals, no Federal program or agency is exempt from investigation. That means programs that have consistently been the targets of overzealous reforms, programs such as TANF, Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, are incredibly vulnerable. I think that there is no coincidence in the fact that the same Members who support sunset legislation are the ones who have consistently worked to gut or completely obliterate these programs through reorganization, underfunding and privatization efforts. The reality is clear, sunset legislation is just another way for a group of determined lawmakers to black out our Nation's great social programs. Efforts to do so through traditional legislative means have sometimes failed. So we are now seeing an attempt to bypass the democratic process by ramming these bills through Congress. For the record, I am not opposed to setting up independent commissions that advise the work of the Congress, but the commissions that are being proposed here would not be independent and not really advisory. To the contrary, under H.R. 5766, commission members would be appointed by the President, and under H.R. 3282, they would be appointed by the majority party. If either bill passes in this session, the commission obviously would lean heavily Republican, likely creating a built-in partisanship and bias. Even more troubling though, however, is the power that these commissions would have to fundamentally change Federal agencies and programs. Under H.R. 5766, commission proposals would be fast-tracked to the floor, bypassing the traditional legislative process. We do enough of that now. And under H.R. 3282, agencies would be abolished 1 year after being reviewed unless they were specifically reauthorized by Congress. These bills go far beyond an advisory capacity, cutting into the constitutionally mandated responsibilities of Congress. My 674,000 constituents gave me a certain level of power, and I don't want to lose one single bit of it. The work of Congress falls into three basic categories: making laws, conducting oversight and levying taxes. As an oversight committee, the Government Reform Committee is charged with identifying and addressing the areas where government is not running as effectively and efficiently as it should. For the most part, I think we have done a good job so far of putting partisan politics aside and evaluating Federal agencies and programs in a fair way. We may not always agree in our assessments, but dissent is a natural part of the democratic process. There are no compelling reasons for why we would hand over our oversight responsibility to a handful of partisan lawmakers or a Presidentially appointed commission. I hope that my colleagues who I know are well intentioned and who are supporting these bills would rethink their positions and listen to what the American people and their representatives are saying. Let's cut the waste, but let's not pretend that we are doing so by allowing allegedly independent sunset commissions to eliminate the vital programs which serve the neediest Americans. And let me--and only just one question. Mr. Brady, you said something that I found very interesting when we talked about how effectively the State folks were working with sunsets; 36 States implemented sunset measures, for instance, in the 1970's and 1980's, but by 2002, almost half of those abandoned the concept and no longer have active laws. How would your bills differ from the failed sunset initiatives we have seen across the country? Mr. Brady. Mr. Chairman, if I may? Chairman Tom Davis. Go ahead. Mr. Brady. A couple of things. For one thing, I think you have gotten some bad information. The sunset commission is not an independent commission. It is made up of 12 members, 8 of whom are lawmakers or Congressmen or women themselves. It is not merely appointed by the majority. It is appointed by the majority with the consent of the minority. It is an exactly equally bipartisan commission for a reason, because the States that have committed to be more efficient and to streamline have discovered the only way to do it is to walk hand in hand in a bipartisan way and to do it over the years. It is true; 36 States have used sunset; 24 still do today. In examining those, what I discovered was, some say governments simply weren't committed to trying to streamline their government effectively over the years. They did it one time and said, this is too hard or we don't like this. It is too hard to work. And so they abandoned them. This is a budget tool that doesn't happen by itself. We actually have to decide to do more than talk the talk about efficiency. Everyone around here, as you know--you have seen them--they like to talk about efficiency and waste and fraud and abuse, but the truth of the matter is, we do a miserable job in a bipartisan way trying to make this government run more efficiently. We have 350 different economic development programs. I confess, I don't know what they all are or how effective they all are. We have almost 500 different urban aid programs. I bet we can probably help inner cities better if we tried to look at how efficiently they are doing. For early development, which is a key I know for you, helping children get up to the right level before they start their school years, we have in early development 50 programs spread out over eight different agencies. I am not convinced we can't deliver those services better to those kids, and the only way we could in my view and the way this commission was designed was that if Republicans and Democrats have to work together over a long period of time regardless of who is in charge around here and regardless of who is in the White House, if we want this to be an effective budget tool, we are going to have to commit to it ourselves, and we always talk about, some day we are going to do it, but why not do it now? Chairman Tom Davis. OK. Thank you very much. Mr. Gutknecht. Mr. Gutknecht. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And again, I want to congratulate both of you because I have sort of been involved in this battle before. When I was in the State legislature, I took it upon myself to eliminate a number of State programs, and I found out how difficult that really, really is. And I just want to remind our colleagues of something: When this country was founded, the President of the United States, the government was so small, the Supreme Court only met about 2 weeks a year. The President of the United States was given the responsibility of also being the superintendent of the schools here in Washington, DC. The government and the country have grown enormously in the last 200 and some years. As a result, it isn't just that we don't have time; it is just that the government has become so big that there is no way we can give adequate oversight to every single agency. And we have seen, as in the IBM ad that they ran for a number of months, where they had King Arthur and he was sitting around with some of his advisors, and they had hired this consultant, and the consultant throws a big bag into the center of the table, and King Arthur says, are you saying we should throw money at the problem? And the consultant says, precisely. And if you look at what we do, and I think Mr. Brady said it---- Chairman Tom Davis. I think that consultant is still alive in Washington. Mr. Gutknecht. In fact, he has multiplied. There is a number of them out here. And that is basically the advice we get, whether we are dealing with the scourge of drugs or whether we are dealing with poverty programs or whether we are dealing with VA benefits or FEMA, all that, and so I know that this concept will have its critics, but I hope people will at least take a little bit of time and step back and say, look, the government has grown enormously in the last 200 years, and the idea that Congress has the time or the focus to really look at all of these programs objectively I think is hopelessly optimistic. And we have been throwing money at problems for a very long time, and some of those problems have actually gotten worse. And so I just congratulate you, and I don't particularly have a question. I mean, I understand what you are trying to do. I support what you are trying to do. I understand there will be lots and lots of critics, but I hope you will persist because I think, in the end, once the American people understand this debate, and understand this argument, I have to believe that the overwhelming number of Americans, even recipients of these programs, can perhaps be our best source of information in terms of the enormous inefficiencies that you see in the delivery of the services that many Americans do desperately need. So my hats are off to you, and I will help in any way I can to advance the cause. Mr. Tiahrt. Mr. Chairman. Chairman Tom Davis. Yes, Mr. Tiahrt. Mr. Tiahrt. I want to thank the gentleman from Minnesota, Mr. Gutknecht, for his comments, but I would also want to address some of the things Mr. Cummings brought up if I could take some time. There is one area that I want to bring up, but I think it is being overlooked in the Government Efficiency Act, and that is the congressional involvement in the process. All the critics seem to think we are avoiding our responsibility or usurping our responsibility to oversight. But in this process, from the very beginning, the selection of the issue or oversight program comes from either Congress or the President. Congress has the opportunity through a resolution of either the House or the Senate to have something presented to this framework, this efficiency commission. There is also a congressional involvement in the appointment process, three appointed by the President, two with consultation of the House, ranking--or minority/majority, two from the Senate majority/ minority. There is also the opportunity for ex officio congressional members to be a part of the commission. Four positions, two from the House, two from the Senate, and again, as I said earlier, if it was oversight, it could be Chairman Davis and Ranking Member Waxman. There is also--after the study is done by the commission, it then goes back to the Congress through the committee process. There is an amendment process; there is a recommendation process. Then it goes to floor vote of both the House and the Senate. There is deep involvement by elected Members of Congress in this process of oversight that is laid out by the Government Efficiency Act. And I just want to make that point for the critics. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Tom Davis. Thank you very much. We will move to Mr. Lynch. Mr. Lynch. Thank you Mr. Chairman. I want to thank the members for coming before us with this initiative. I understand some of what you are trying to do, and I agree with some of it, but there are some serious questions here that I have. This looks a lot like the old Grace Commission, the Grace Commission was established by President Reagan basically to improve government efficiency, and it is funny how that worked out because the Grace Commission itself instead became a model of inefficiency, waste and corporate corruption. The commission had 2,000 staff members and cost the taxpayers about $75 million, and you know, it was laughable actually. The commission recommended cutting military retirement benefits, similar to what the President has proposed, eliminating wage fairness protections and also a lot of regulatory protections for the environment. And as it turned out, the chairman of the commission, Peter Grace was later indicted, and his company WR Grace was found guilty of violating the very regulations that he was trying to dismantle. And so that is clear in my mind, and I am very concerned about this. It appears at least--the way these bills would work--and there are several versions, and I am going to talk about that in a minute--we would have to basically reconstitute government on a continual basis. We would have to revisit every single decision we have made and pull it up before Congress and both the House and the Senate and then give the President another chance to veto every prior decision of every prior Congress, and that just seems to me to create a tremendous burden on us, and I think it will really slow down the efficiency of government rather than enhance it. And I have enormous respect for both of the gentlemen that are here today testifying. I really do. I know you, and I know your work, and I appreciate what you are trying to do. But I am very concerned about--the President has suggested cutting veterans' benefits and eliminating COPS grants, and much of the work that we used to do in Congress we now dole out in community development block grants to the cities and States, and we ask them to do it. Now after we have given them the responsibility for doing the work we used to do, now we are suggesting cutting the money that we normally used to give them. And so it is just--I just think that it is a good idea to, you know, to get rid of waste, fraud and abuse. I don't think these bills necessarily have focused on that. I do notice that, on a couple of earlier instances, both of the gentlemen, Mr. Brady and Mr. Tiahrt, before us have suggested similar bills but with some exemptions for certain programs that were deemed to be too important to subject to this process. And I am just wondering, for instance, Representative Brady, in addition to the bill before us today, H.R. 3282, you also introduced H.R. 3277, except in that case, it exempts certain regulations from abolishment regarding environmental health, basic health and safety, civil rights protections and those regulations that enforce those activities. Am I to assume that because the current bill before us doesn't have any exemptions that you no longer support those type of exemptions? Mr. Brady. No, I do. I think those are very important. Those came about because of discussions we have had with members over the years, and should this committee choose to mark the sunset commission up, we will ask Mr. Porter to offer an amendment, who has worked with us as well, to insert those because the goal of the sunset commission is not to boss regulations on environment, education, civil rights, all that, that is not it. It is a way for you and me to, over time, over the years, very thoughtfully, Republican and Democrat, try to make this run more efficiently. And one of the reasons, again, Congressman Jim Turner and I, who served together in the Texas Legislature; Lloyd Doggett, who created our sunset commission; the wide range of philosophies that believe in accountability. Here is my other key point. We live in a time where we don't really trust each other up here, and so everything is seen as a partisan bill. Mr. Lynch. That doesn't apply to me. And I don't think it applies to you either. But---- Mr. Brady. But it is a fair question. We have tried painfully to create a commission that will work regardless of who is in charge here, regardless who is running the House, Senate or the White House, so it will work over time because, in looking at the States that have used this, some not very well, some very well, it is that bipartisan approach that works. Mr. Lynch. Fair enough. If I could just, just reclaiming my time. Also Representative Tiahrt, you also, at one point, you introduced a bill, H.R. 2470, similar to the one we are considering today. However, H.R. 2470 expressly exempted entitlements, certain entitlements, and focused on nondefense discretionary spending. Now, I understand that Medicaid, Medicare and Social Security would have been exempted in the earlier version as well as, I guess, Defense. Now, given the fact, you know, the other subcommittee that I serve on here proudly is investigating Halliburton, we have about $9 billion missing over in Iraq, No. 1, do you still think that, you know, in light of all the waste, fraud and abuse that is going on in the Middle East and the huge numbers we are talking, should we still exempt the military? And do you think that Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security should be similarly protected? Mr. Tiahrt. Thank you for the question, Mr. Lynch. And CARFA was designed--the first one you referred to was the Commission on Accountability and Review of Federal agencies, CARFA. It did set aside Defense because it was a BRAC-like process, a Base Realignment Commission process, that was being done in the Department of Defense. I set it aside. I didn't think we had time to look at other mandatory spending. But in talking with others about what is going on, certainly we need to look at what is going on with Halliburton and other contractors in Iraq and see if there is justification for how the money was spent or if it was--what happened to the money. I think that is a valid thing to look at. What made me open my eyes to other entitlements was the State of Kansas where I am from. I represent the Fourth District of Kansas, and I found out that in Medicaid payments, one out of every four Medicaid payments done by the State of Kansas is incorrect. It either goes to the wrong address, it has the wrong amount, or it doesn't get there at all. And I talked to Ways and Means about this. Ways and Means doesn't have time to do it. Somebody has to be able to go look at these issues that pop up where there is a problem, where people are not properly being served, and this is an issue that could have been generated by me through a resolution on the House, and I think you would have supported me on trying to straighten out this process because people of need are not being served properly. So this is just a framework to address defense, mandatory spending and discretionary spending that says, if an issue pops up that we believe needs to be looked at with some leverage and with some additional tools, here is a framework to do it, and that is what the Government Efficiency Act is about. It involves Congress along the process. We can even initiate the issues like I would like to do with the State of Kansas, and I think you would join with me, and that is why I am trying to set up this framework for us to reach out and make this more efficient. Mr. Lynch. Well, I appreciate that, and I appreciate the spirit in which it is offered, but looking at this, you know, it seems to me that--and I will conclude my remarks--it just seems to set up a conveyor belt that every single regulation that we visit and settle on is going to be continually sent back to us, and we are going to have to revisit all of these on a continual basis. I think it is going to cause a tremendous amount of work here, and it is actually going to hurt the efficiency of government if we are reviewing programs that we are all in agreement that work. I would rather just focus on those problem areas, as you suggested. So it is not a question of what you would like to do. It is really a question of how best to do that. Thank you. I yield back. Chairman Tom Davis. Thank you. Ms. Schmidt. Mrs. Schmidt. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you Congressman Brady and Congressman Tiahrt for this legislation. When I was in the State legislature, we had situations where we really had duplicative agencies, and it was very difficult to get one of them removed because the bureaucracies that were created with those agencies didn't quite frankly want to lose their job, and I wish we had a provision that would automatically review the necessity of all of those agencies on a timely basis so that we could have better utilized the money that we were spending from our citizens in Ohio. It appears to me that this is what you are really looking at doing in this legislation; am I correct in assuming that? Mr. Tiahrt. I think Kevin probably would want to address it. Periodically, the Government Efficiency Act was designed to set the framework that we could look at anything. There are three ways that an issue or a program or an agency could be looked at. One would be an Executive order from the President. The other one would be a resolution that was generated in the Senate. Another one, resolution generated in the House. Those things all would have to have congressional approval before anything was done, but it is a way for us or each Member to have the opportunity to bring forward some agency program or issue that needs to look--be looked at with more detail and more leverage. Mr. Brady. Congresswoman, tell me again the question on the regular---- Ms. Schmidt. The question was, on a regular basis, would this set up a mechanism that these agencies, these programs would be reviewed in sunset--there would be a sunset provision to see the necessity for these programs and the agencies that provide the framework for the program? Mr. Brady. Your examining on a regular basis is really key to identifying efficiencies. If agencies know that they are going to be examined on a regular basis, if Congress knows that they will be examining on a regular basis, and you continue to do it so that you never allow them to drift out, that we are always looking at better ways to deliver our government services, in the States that have really had success, that has been a key part of it. Those who stop--some States have stopped after one round of sunset, and then the efficiencies just sort of grow back. They trim the tree; they get it down a little healthier, and it goes away. The States that have continued to do this have the best results. And I will tell you, Congresswoman, I believe in sunset so much that agencies ought to justify their existence just like you do every 2 years that I sunset the sunset commission so if this thing doesn't work, we will send it back in 2. Mrs. Schmidt. And the followup, sir. There is--what would the cost for this commission, and would we just be creating another unnecessary bureaucracy but albeit with a sunset just in case it didn't work to be eliminated? Mr. Brady. Thank you. The sunset commission, because it is made up of 12 members, equally divided Republican/Democrat, 8 of them Members of Congress, so that we have impetus within our ranks to continue this savings and efficiency. I don't have an estimate for the cost. At the State level, they are not huge commissions at all. And I know that, in Texas, we have this fairly sophisticated--does a good job I think, but for every dollar that they have spent in the commission, they have saved about $36 for taxpayers. So their return on investment is pretty solid. But even dollars aside, I actually think the best benefit of it, it has forced Republicans and Democrats throughout decades to work together on how we can make things run better; that to me has been even the greater benefit. Chairman Tom Davis. Thank you. Ms. Watson. Mr. Watson. Yes, I would like to read my statement because it contains the concerns that I have and questions, too. And I am very concerned. And thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding this hearing and for the two witnesses who have come forward with their own proposals. But I am very concerned about ensuring our constituents that our government indeed is free of waste, fraud and abuse. And I don't think it really gets to it because I see that we spend $8 billion per month in Iraq, and there is $9 billion, as has been mentioned, is missing, and we haven't had the kind of in-depth oversight hearings that we should. The Federal Government has a very important role to play in meeting the public's needs, and I want to make sure that our resources are serving those goals. I am troubled by the sunset commission bills because I fear they will end up stripping away the programs we need to adequately serve the public. Since I myself was a State Senator, I have always been concerned about important public health issues, such as cardiovascular health, diabetes, obesity, and how these health issues lead to community health disparities. Our State and local governments, and our nonprofit allies, are all doing good work to meet these needs, but they need help. There is too much work for them to be going and doing it alone. That is why we need Federal programs to help them out and put national resources into these national health issues. Programs that could help meet these needs have been put on the chopping block. For example, the Rural and Community Access to Emergency Devices Program is a program to make grants available to areas that cannot otherwise afford the technology that can bring life or death for people experiencing sudden cardiac arrest. Rural areas and low-income communities need to close this gap in their public health resources. The demand is great, but the resources are now insufficient: Between 2002 and 2004, less than half of the grant dollars requested by the States for this program were awarded. The White House tried to eliminate this program entirely in the last budget, and Congress has been able to save this program from the chopping block. But if these sunset commission bills pass, Congress will have its hands tied. So, Mr. Chairman, these bills do not represent what I feel the authors' intention might be; and I feel they would have significant impact on the poor and disadvantaged communities, who already suffer intense disparities. Neither of these bills has any exception--and if I am wrong, please correct me--and no program or agency is off limits from scrutiny; and I feel, from a national perspective, this is unacceptable. So I urge my colleagues to take a deep look. I don't think these bills are ready to go forward, and I would like the two authors to come together with their bills and make it real clear what the exceptions and the exemptions are, what would be protected. I think we ought to look at the military programs as well, because I feel that is where a lot of the waste and probably fraud and abuse might rest, and I think just the social programs and environmental programs could come under the knife. [The prepared statement of Hon. Diane E. Watson follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.061 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.062 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.063 Ms. Watson. So my question to the two of you, do your bills currently have exemptions and exceptions for health safety, civil rights and environmental protections. Mr. Brady. Let me tackle that. Because I agree with you. Those are important regulations. Those are important to be protected. In one of our previous bills we intend to add that language that has come from discussions with Members of both parties. Let me make one point very clear. The sunset bill in my view should not decide which agencies are exempted. Congress should decide that. The first order of business for the bipartisan sunset commission is to submit back to you and me, Ms. Watson, the schedule of the agencies when they come under review. If we feel some agency shouldn't or the timing is wrong or there is some motive we don't like, then we ought to move to exempt them and change that schedule. Now I will tell you my view. I don't think we should exempt any agency. I think they should be held equally accountable. Because whether they are the Pentagon or Health and Human Services or whomever, I think we ought to be examining, as Republicans and Democrats, how well they do their job. And I don't believe looking at the State level, as you have in California with your sunset commission, what you are really looking to do is identify efficiencies, do it in a bipartisan way and deliver those services better. And the Department of Education has been raised by Mr. Waxman, a great issue or agency to raise. At the State level, no major agencies have been abolished, but they've always examined how well they delivered their services. This is an opportunity whether it's the Pentagon, whatever agency it is, for us as lawmakers to look across a broader range of services, their public service, their programs, to find ways where we can do--where we can deliver those services better. So the answer is, yes we are going to add those provisions. I think we will give you comfort. Second, I think Congress will, in the separate legislation, approve the schedule so that you and I and Stephen and whoever else wants to have a say in what agencies are reviewing and what time table will have that final say. Ms. Watson. If we still have time, I'd like Mr. Tiahrt to respond. Mr. Tiahrt. Ms. Watson, thank you for the question. I think it is important to note that the Government Efficiency Act is not a policy driven act. It would not abolish any of our policies set forward like civil rights or health care. Health care, though it would allow us, if we choose or if the President thinks it needs to be looked at for efficiency reasons, we could look at how Medicare is being delivered in Kansas. Now it doesn't eliminate Medicare by any means, but it could give them a more efficient way to present or to pay for and to provide health care to people who are poor in Kansas. Something that I would like to do but I cannot get the help from the Ways and Means Committee, I don't have time myself to go back to the State and go through all of the system and try to get a more efficient delivery method, but if I could get a regulation through the House as an example and a commission was set up with congressional input, I would like to be one of the ex-officio members so I could see how health care is being delivered to those who are living--who qualified for Medicaid in the State of Kansas; and I would like to help improve that process. This would give me a means to do that in leverage, also. I could use the commission to help me find efficient ways of making sure that health care is properly delivered in Kansas. Right now, today, only three out of four attempts of getting a payment made properly in Kansas occurs. One out of four is incorrect or doesn't reach the proper person. So I think we need some help. I think, if we admit it, we do need some help with oversight. This is a way of allowing Congress' input in this process to leverage on or process in oversight. You also mentioned defense. Defense should be included. It is included in the Government Efficiency Act. Chairman Tom Davis. I think what we need to do is move to the next panel. If you have one more question, I'll let you go ahead. Ms. Watson. My question is, is there a possibility that we can merge these two bills and, Mr. Chairman, bring a singular bill back that addresses the concerns that we have stated today and then go through it? Is that possible? Chairman Tom Davis. I think we are on a time line where this comes next week. Mr. Tiahrt, go ahead. Mr. Tiahrt. We tried to merge the two bills for a long time. Stephen and I worked together for a long time to do it. I think it was a collective decision that we were supposed to merge them together. We wanted to merge them together. It was a collective decision not to. It was based on timing, and at some point I hope that we do have the ability to merge them because I think that the Government Efficiency Act provides the framework to carry out a sunset commission if it's chosen, and I think it should be. So we do try to merge them and thanks for the idea. It was a good idea. Chairman Tom Davis. It is a long process here as we go through here and get to rules and the floor and who knows. But I appreciate your comments. Thank you. We will take a 2-minute recess before we move to our next distinguished panel. [Recess.] Chairman Tom Davis. We have our next panel: James Horney, senior fellow, Center on Budget and Policy Priorities; and Charles Loveless, the legislative director, American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees. Thank you both for being here. I look forward to your testimony. Raise your right hands. [Witnesses sworn.] Chairman Tom Davis. As with our previous speakers, the entire testimony is in the record. If you can keep it to 5 minutes, the green light will go on, then the orange after 4, right after 5. We are having a vote sometime. Let's get through testimony, and we might get through questions. Thank you. Mr. Horney, we will start with you. Mr. Horney. In addition to my written statement, I would like to submit for the record a paper that I have written that goes into some more detail about. Chairman Tom Davis. That would be great. Without objection, be so ordered. [The information referred to follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.064 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.065 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.066 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.067 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.068 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.069 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.070 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.071 STATEMENTS OF JAMES R. HORNEY, SENIOR FELLOW, CENTER ON BUDGET AND POLICY PRIORITIES; AND CHARLES M. LOVELESS, DIRECTOR OF LEGISLATION, AMERICAN FEDERATION OF STATE, COUNTY AND MUNICIPAL EMPLOYEES [AFSCME] STATEMENT OF JAMES R. HORNEY Mr. Horney. Thank you very much for having me, allowing me to testify today. I want to start off by saying that I agree completely with Mr. Brady's main point, which is there are improvements in the government operation, greater efficiencies that be can be achieved that should be able to--and I think would--gain broad support from the public and broad bipartisan support in the Congress. In fact, I think he's correct, that the only way you are really going to deal with these reorganization issues and Government Efficiency Acts is through long-term, bipartisan cooperation in the Congress. Unfortunately, I don't think the commission procedures that are in this two bills that are before you today are likely to lead to that result. Let me explain why. The combination of the composition of the commission, the rules governing how the commission can report out recommendations and then the special procedures that allow either the elimination of the program or changes in the program or agency without legislation going through the regular legislative process is more likely to lead to partisan kinds of efforts that in the long run are not going to be successful. First of all, the commissions established would have strong partisan majority case of 57-66. It would be 5-2 partisan, depending on who is the President at the time. In the case of Mr. Brady's bill, he's absolutely correct, that the way the bill was introduced there would be eight Members of Congress and they would be four Democrat, four Republicans. But the way I read the bill as it was introduced, there is no requirement that the other four members who are not Members of Congress be from different parties; and it would allow the Speaker and the Majority Leader of the Senate, I believe, to appoint members that are all from the same party. It's possible that there would be an understanding now that is not how it worked, but since this is an ongoing process that would not necessarily keep. So I believe in fact you would be likely to end up, if not now, at some point with an eight to four partisan majority split in that commission that would be established under H.R. 3282. Second, the commissions that would be established can report recommendations with a simple majority vote. There is no requirement for having super majority, which means there is no requirement to get any support from the minority party members of the commission, no incentive for the members of the commission to search for a broad consensus on the commission. I also need to point out here I think that in fact the legislation, both bills as drafted, really do not limit what the commission can recommend except in the case of H.R. 3282 which says specifically they can't recommend levels of appropriations. But in fact I believe, both bills, the commissions would be within the light set forward in the legislation to report--recommend changes in entitlement programs and how they operate programs such as Medicare, farm programs and so on. That may be not the intention of Mr. Brady, although Mr. Tiahrt said he thinks they should look at entitlement programs, but I think in both cases they could do that. Then, under H.R. 5766, the legislation comes up and it could be considered under procedures that would be fast- tracked, allow very limited debate, no more than 10 hours on the House floor and no amendments on the House floor. As written, if the committee of jurisdiction over the particular proposal were to reject the proposal or report it with an amendment, then it is considered under regular rules of the House. But if it doesn't take either of those two steps, then the bill goes directly to the House floor for only 10-hour debates, no amendments. If the chairman of the committee of jurisdiction over the proposal declines to have a committee mark-up on the proposal, there wouldn't be any chance to have amendments in committee. This does not seem like a process, it seems, designed to encourage broad bipartisan support. H.R. 3282 does include those fast-track procedures, but it does call for automatic sunset programs. The problem there, of course, is that a minority in Congress could block the reauthorization. In fact, if they have the support of the President, it would take just over one-third of either of the House or the Senate to prevent that legislation from going through. Given the makeup of the committees, the way the commission would operate and the procedures that happen, I think it's more likely these procedures would encourage a partisan approach. I think that the leaders who would appoint the members of the commission and the members of the commission themselves would be under tremendous pressure from the most partisan members of their party to use this process to try to get things through that those members, both parties members, have been unable to achieve by convincing Congress that this is something that should be done through the regular process. It's in stark contrast to the Greenspan Commission, people who have talked about as an example of a commission that worked that had an eight to seven split and no fast-track procedures, and it did encourage--brought bipartisan support. They had brought support across the commission and in Congress. One last thing I would like to just note is it's not clear to me from H.R. 3282 what happens if an agency is abolished. Unlike the President's proposal, which says that agencies in the programs within the agency are abolished, it simply says programs, but it doesn't say what does that mean. What does it mean if the tests for Medicare-Medicaid services are abolished and no provisions are made in legislature for Medicare to be operated by another agency? A similar proposal was offered on the House floor in 2004. One of the cosponsors, then Congressman Jim Turner of Texas, offered assurances to Members that no programs would be abolished; and he said there was specific language. But I can't identify any language in either that amendment or H.R. 3282 that makes that clear. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [The prepared statement of Mr. Horney follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.072 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.073 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.074 Chairman Tom Davis. Mr. Loveless, thank you. STATEMENT OF CHARLES M. LOVELESS Mr. Loveless. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Gutknecht. It's a pleasure again to see you again. I am testifying this morning not only on behalf of my unit but on behalf of the 14 million men and women who come from the AFL/CIO, and I want to make it very clear that we are fundamentally opposed to both of these bills. We are strong advocates of improving government accountability to the public. If we have time later, we can talk about some of our ideas in that regard, but we do not think that either of these bills is going in that direction. In fact, in the name of improving government efficiency, we think these bills are going to trample basic democratic processes and principles. At its essence, sunset commissions--that sunset commission process is designed to further enhance the power of the executive branch, we think, over the legislative branch and to further exclude the public from decisionmaking. And this is because of the way that the commissions are composed under both of these bills, how they are to conduct their business and how the legislative process will unfold once a commission issues its recommendations. Under the bill that's been introduced by Mr. Tiahrt, commissions would be established through appointments which are made by the President. Certainly the views of the executive branch are going to dominate commission recommendations, and the fast-track procedures that have been set forth for congressional consideration under his bill give precious little time for Congress to evaluate the recommendations of the commission. We also think that executive authority significantly strengthens under the bill that is introduced by Mr. Brady. Because of the President's veto authority, agencies could be abolished even when you have a solid majority of both Houses of Congress who have acted to reauthorize an agency; and because a failure to reauthorize an important agency would really be a catastrophic outcome, we think that the leverage of the President is going to be really major and massive in that process. There has been a recent disturbing trend noted by a number of observers of Congress that Congress has failed recently to live up to its oversight responsibilities, and these bills we think are going to codify a secondary role for Congress if the over--it is reached. We think it resolved for itself. I have never quoted this man, but I am going to do it today. Former Speaker Gingrich I think said it well. He was at a--participated in a program I think during the last week, and he said clearly that Congress has failed effectively to respond to crises at home and abroad. He said--and I am quoting him--it is important to have an informed, independent legislative branch coming to grips with this reality and not sitting around waiting for Presidential leadership. We do not need a new rigid, automatic process as imposed by these bills for Congress to meet its basic constitutional responsibilities. We have the budget, the appropriations and the authorization processes whereby Congress can make any changes that it deems appropriate in programs and agencies. The key point that I want to make this morning is that, in our view, these bills inevitably are going to be used to hurt programs that benefit working families. To get an insight into this, just look at the President's most recent budget submission where he targeted a number of education, social service, law enforcement and other programs and agencies that we think that benefit working families; and, of course, tax cuts that in recent years have overwhelmingly benefited the high-speed people in our country have been totally taken off the table. But a substantial harm we think could also be caused by recommendations to change programs and agencies, including programs that eliminate worker productions, weaken enforcement, undermine the missions of programs and agencies through consolidation. One example is a commission calling for the abolishing of the OSHA, our safety and health administration, but it could weaken its enforcement capacity and, therefore, it would be incapable of enforcing the regulations that have been set out for its responsibility to enforce. I agree with Jim we have no doubt that the commissions established by either bill are going to be used to advance an agenda to severely cut back on Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security. We definitely think entitlements are covered in one way or another under these two bills. Let me just conclude, Mr. Chairman, by saying that we believe that both bills are essentially undemocratic. They do not serve the public interest, and we think they should be rejected by this committee. Thank you. Chairman Tom Davis. Thank you very much. [The prepared statement of Mr. Loveless follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.075 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.076 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.077 Chairman Tom Davis. Let me start, Mr. Horney, with you. If we were to make the procedural changes that you suggested, which I think are very constructive, by the way, we still wouldn't be convinced that this is probably the way to go. Mr. Horney. My gut reaction, it is better for the Congress to do its own work. But I have to say there have been times when a properly constructed commission has helped. I think the 1983 Greenspan Social Security Commission is a good example, where you had a problem that everybody agreed had been solved. It was political and difficult. You had brought support. You had the President, you had the Speaker of the House, you had Republican and Democrat leaders who all got on board and said, let's do it, put a commission together to help us come up with something and generate public support and support in Congress. So my first instinct would be I don't think it is time to do that here. I think that Congress can address these issues. It has done some, not enough. It was interesting Mr. Tiahrt mentioned the tea tasting that has been eliminated. Congress has responded when it was identified---- Chairman Tom Davis. We bagged it. Mr. Horney. Exactly. So when an egregious example was identified, Congress got rid of it. So my preference would be to do it through the regular process. If you need a commission I think with some changes, significant changes be both on the commission and not having the fast-track procedures, it could be useful. Chairman Tom Davis. I mean, I think, Mr. Loveless, you put it well. You are skeptical of the whole agenda at this point. Mr. Loveless. I think so. And I just--you know, we heard a lot about the experience of States--varying States are used to these commissions, but in fact it's been a very mixed record at the State level. A number of States have eliminated their commissions in this area. Even in the State of Texas, it's been a subject of some controversy. But the fundamental difference between the States and the Congress is you are in year round. You are paid on a yearly basis. We are in all the time now. It seems like the Congress never goes home. You can't even take a vacation any more--let's be blunt about the whole thing--except for an August recess. Most State legislatures are in for a very small amount of time, and they operate every other year, what have you. So we can even argue the need for these commissions at the State level. I think it is a very different situation when you talk about the Federal Government and the role of Congress. Chairman Tom Davis. Let me ask you, it seems to me, as you take a look at trying to get spending under control, I think that is something everything should agree on. We can argue whether you have enough revenue and does it reduce economy. Everybody understands we want to operate and try to get spending under control and all have different priorities. But it seems to me when government needs to lose weight, the tendency is to chop off fingers and toes. When in fact the fat, if you will, is layered just throughout the way government does business and the way we procure goods. It is the way we react to things. If we would settle more on some of the business process-- the GAO has a lot of reports just showing programs that are not getting--you know, people that are getting mispaid, the systems that aren't working, that there is probably more money in that and are knocking out a few programs that you could reach a consensus on or consolidating programs. Mr. Loveless. I don't disagree with that. I mean--and there are a number of what I think are very positive, constructive suggestions that are out there. I know that Congressman Tanner has recently introduced a resolution that would require committees of jurisdiction to hold hearings, at the minimum, when the Inspector General or the GAO issues a report critical to the way programs are being administered by agencies. That seems to me to be a very sensible thing. We have another proposal--maybe I think this is too extreme--by Congressman Cardoza that would require reconfirmation of agency heads when agencies fail basic audits 2 years in a row. There are a number of things that can be done, but what I object to is this automatic mechanical process that is fast- tracked that I do not believe is going to give you, the authorizing committees who should know the most about the programs under their jurisdiction, the kind of time that they need to make the kinds of assessments that need to be made. Mr. Horney. If I could, one thing you noted, GAO, I think that in fact illustrates one important difference between the Federal Government and State governments. I think in some instances States may think that the commissions are useful because they need to get together people who can look at this and come up with ideas. They don't have the Office of Management and Budget that is running the part assessment program. They don't have the Government Accountability Office which, as you said, has enormous numbers of suggestions. They don't have a Congressional Budget Office that every other year publishes a budget options book with a lot of options. So there is a lot of information that is currently available about things that can be done to improve the operation. Chairman Tom Davis. A lot of this is also congressionally driven. When you get right down do it, jurisdiction drives this place and you get programs under different agencies duplicating everything else and you are asking for help. Look, I think you have given this a lot of thought. You give us some room on this. I am not sure we are going to get it worked out tomorrow. I think over the long term, as we get real on this, your comments are appropriate and I think give us a lot of food for thought when we get down to if this thing is going to happen or we get into conference. I appreciate you being here. I want you at the table should this come about. I think you represent a point of view and a constituent that needs to be there as well. I thank you for being here. Mr. Gutknecht. Mr. Gutknecht. I want to thank the witnesses and for the record to note that two Republicans were here to listen to your testimony. I think that should be noted. And I want to thank you for your testimony. I think there are philosophical differences we might not be able to bridge, but I do agree that we have fallen down on congressional oversight. But I do hope you understand there are limits to how much we can do, and there are all kinds of problems out there, and we don't pay enough attention to GAO and some of the agencies. Mr. Chairman, I do want to make this statement publicly. Having just come back from Iraq, I think there is one area that is absolutely crying out for congressional oversight hearings and that is that these contractors that we have hired for reconstruction and other efforts in Iraq--we have spent hundreds of millions, if not billions, of dollars, taxpayer dollars; and the results I saw were not what I expected to see. And it seems to me we have an obligation to the American taxpayers and to the Iraqi people to have some oversight hearings in terms of the contractors. Incidentally, just for the record, I was told by some of the people on the ground over there that, actually, Halliburton has been one of the good actors. They've actually done most of what they said they were going to do. It may have been at inflated costs, but some of the other contractors have taken a lot of money and we see almost no results. If there is one area where Congress should take very swift action and that is to have some oversight hearings on the contractors that have received enormous amounts. Chairman Tom Davis. We have done four, and we are going to do more this year; and we can do 30, and it probably wouldn't be enough. Mr. Gutknecht. I am much more interested in that particular issue. But I am not sure we will bridge this philosophical divide. Some of us believe--here's what I believe. If you see what is happening in the private sector today, every single company that I deal with in my district every day is trying to become more and more efficient. Why? Because the marketplace demands it, the pressure of the marketplace. They have competition. In fact, a classic story there is a little company in Redwing, MN. It makes boots. And the president of Redwing tells me--he said, every day I spend part of my day trying to figure out how to put more value in every boot we make here in Redwing, would be minimum at less cost. He said, do you know why I do that? I said, no, I don't. He said, because if I don't, my competitor will. The difference between us and the private sector is we have no competition, and there isn't that tension and that pressure every day. I think these two bills are an attempt to bring some of those outside tensions or pressures to force the Congress to do what it should be doing every day. So I thank you for your testimony. We have a slightly different philosophical viewpoint of this, but we would welcome any of your help in trying to make us more accountable to the taxpayers who pay the bills. Chairman Tom Davis. Thank you. Mr. Horney, I'll read what you have put in the record in addition, which--you didn't have to give this. But I appreciate both of you being here and look forward to hearing from you again. [Whereupon, at 11:35 a.m., the committee was adjourned.] [The prepared statement of Hon. Elijah E. Cummings follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.078 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.079 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.080 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.081 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9331.082 <all>