<DOC> [109th Congress House Hearings] [From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access] [DOCID: f:23829.wais] H.R. 1054, AUTHORIZING PRESIDENTIAL VISION: MAKING PERMANENT THE EFFORTS OF THE FAITH-BASED AND COMMUNITY INITIATIVE ======================================================================= HEARING before the SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIMINAL JUSTICE, DRUG POLICY, AND HUMAN RESOURCES of the COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED NINTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION ON H.R. 1054 TO ESTABLISH THE OFFICE OF FAITH-BASED AND COMMUNITY INITIATIVES __________ JUNE 21, 2005 __________ Serial No. 109-74 __________ Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Reform Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.gpoaccess.gov/congress/ index.html http://www.house.gov/reform U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 23-829 WASHINGTON : 2005 _________________________________________________________________ For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512-1800; DC area (202) 512-1800 Fax: (202) 512-2250 Mail: Stop SSOP, Washington, DC 20402-0001 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM TOM DAVIS, Virginia, Chairman CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Connecticut HENRY A. WAXMAN, California DAN BURTON, Indiana TOM LANTOS, California ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida MAJOR R. OWENS, New York JOHN M. McHUGH, New York EDOLPHUS TOWNS, New York JOHN L. MICA, Florida PAUL E. KANJORSKI, Pennsylvania GIL GUTKNECHT, Minnesota CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland STEVEN C. LaTOURETTE, Ohio DENNIS J. KUCINICH, Ohio TODD RUSSELL PLATTS, Pennsylvania DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois CHRIS CANNON, Utah WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri JOHN J. DUNCAN, Jr., Tennessee DIANE E. WATSON, California CANDICE S. MILLER, Michigan STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts MICHAEL R. TURNER, Ohio CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, Maryland DARRELL E. ISSA, California LINDA T. SANCHEZ, California GINNY BROWN-WAITE, Florida C.A. DUTCH RUPPERSBERGER, Maryland JON C. PORTER, Nevada BRIAN HIGGINS, New York KENNY MARCHANT, Texas ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of LYNN A. WESTMORELAND, Georgia Columbia PATRICK T. McHENRY, North Carolina ------ CHARLES W. DENT, Pennsylvania BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina (Independent) ------ ------ Melissa Wojciak, Staff Director David Marin, Deputy Staff Director/Communications Director Rob Borden, Parliamentarian/Senior Counsel Teresa Austin, Chief Clerk Phil Barnett, Minority Chief of Staff/Chief Counsel Subcommittee on Criminal Justice, Drug Policy, and Human Resources MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana, Chairman PATRICK T. McHenry, North Carolina ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland DAN BURTON, Indiana BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont JOHN L. MICA, Florida DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois GIL GUTKNECHT, Minnesota DIANE E. WATSON, California STEVEN C. LaTOURETTE, Ohio LINDA T. SANCHEZ, California CHRIS CANNON, Utah C.A. DUTCH RUPPERSBERGER, Maryland CANDICE S. MILLER, Michigan MAJOR R. OWENS, New York GINNY BROWN-WAITE, Florida ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina Columbia Ex Officio TOM DAVIS, Virginia HENRY A. WAXMAN, California J. Marc Wheat, Staff Director Brandon Lerch, Professional Staff Member Malia Holst, Clerk Tony Haywood, Minority Counsel C O N T E N T S ---------- Page Hearing held on June 21, 2005.................................... 1 Text of H.R. 1054................................................ 6 Statement of: Carlson-Thies, Stanley, director of social policy studies, Center for Public Justice; David Kuo, former deputy director, White House Faith-Based and Community Initiative; and Bobby Polito, former director, Center for Faith-Based and Community Initiatives, Department of Health and Human Services................................................... 62 Carlson-Thies, Stanley................................... 62 Kuo, David............................................... 79 Polito, Bobby............................................ 82 Green, Hon. Mark, a Representative in Congress from the State of Wisconsin; and Hon. Robert C. Scott, a Representative in Congress from the State of Virginia........................ 33 Green, Hon. Mark......................................... 33 Scott, Hon. Robert C..................................... 38 Petersmeyer, Gregg, vice chairman, Board of Trustees, America's Promise; Bob Woodson, president, National Center for Neighborhood Enterprise; Dennis Griffith, director, Teen Challenge in southern California; Rabbi David Saperstein, director, Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism; and Reverend C. Welton Gaddy, president, Interfaith Alliance........................................ 336 Gaddy, Reverend C. Welton................................ 392 Griffith, Dennis......................................... 363 Petersmeyer, Gregg....................................... 336 Saperstein, Rabbi David.................................. 379 Woodson, Bob............................................. 349 Letters, statements, etc., submitted for the record by: Carlson-Thies, Stanley, director of social policy studies, Center for Public Justice, prepared statement of........... 65 Cummings, Hon. Elijah E., a Representative in Congress from the State of Maryland, prepared statement of............... 27 Gaddy, Reverend C. Welton, president, Interfaith Alliance, prepared statement of...................................... 394 Green, Hon. Mark, a Representative in Congress from the State of Wisconsin, prepared statement of........................ 36 Griffith, Dennis, director, Teen Challenge in southern California, prepared statement of.......................... 366 Owens, Hon. Major R., a Representative in Congress from the State of New York, article dated May 3, 2005............... 18 Petersmeyer, Gregg, vice chairman, Board of Trustees, America's Promise: Information concerning public papers of the President.... 422 Prepared statement of.................................... 339 Ruppersberger, Hon. C.A. Dutch, a Representative in Congress from the State of Maryland, prepared statement of.......... 429 Saperstein, Rabbi David, director, Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism, prepared statement of...................... 382 Scott, Hon. Robert C., a Representative in Congress from the State of Virginia, prepared statement of................... 41 Souder, Hon. Mark E., a Representative in Congress from the State of Indiana: Information concerning the Points of Light............... 414 Snapshots of Compassion.................................. 89 Prepared statement of.................................... 4 Woodson, Bob, president, National Center for Neighborhood Enterprise, prepared statement of.......................... 353 AUTHORIZING PRESIDENTIAL VISION: MAKING PERMANENT THE EFFORTS OF THE FAITH-BASED AND COMMUNITY INITIATIVE ---------- TUESDAY, JUNE 21, 2005 House of Representatives, Subcommittee on Criminal Justice, Drug Policy, and Human Resources, Committee on Government Reform, Washington, DC. The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:35 p.m., in room 2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Mark Souder (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding. Present: Representatives Souder, Gutknecht, Brown-Waite, Foxx, Cummings, Watson, Owens, Davis and Ruppersberger. Staff present: J. Marc Wheat, staff director and chief counsel; Brandon Lerch and Naomi Seiler, professional staff members; Michelle Gress, counsel; Malia Holst, clerk; Denise Wilson and Richard Butcher, minority professional staff members; Cecelia Morton, minority clerk; and Christopher Davis, minority professional staff member. Mr. Souder. The subcommittee will come to order. Good afternoon and thank you all for coming. In particular, I welcome two distinguished colleagues on our first panel, Congressman Mark Green of Wisconsin and Congressman Bobby Scott of Virginia. Sometimes we talk to each other on other issues other than faith-based but the three of us have been engaging in this debate for some time and welcome you to this hearing today to talk about this legislation and in general, the subject. We have two additional panels of eminent witnesses representing hundreds of years of total experience in service to others. I have no doubt the collective compassion of our witnesses generates its own electricity. We have not held a hearing on the provision of community services since April 2004, but this is the subcommittee's 11th hearing on the topic. It is also our first legislative hearing. Congressman Green's proposal to make the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives permanent, H.R. 1054, The Tools for Community Initiative Act, raises an important debate that policymakers have confronted for decades. Mr. Green's bill leads us to ask, how do we organize the executive branch to promote and extend efficient and effective care to Americans in their time of need. As for the White House, itself, it has been at least 15 years since the West Wing dedicated office space to the cause of grassroots service. President Bush's Faith-Based and Community Initiative has now been in existence for nearly 4 years. While providing for much political controversy, the Initiative has also fostered significant advances in the way government reaches Americans in their time of need. If the aim of the Federal Government is to efficiently execute Federal programs, then it follows that these programs should make great efforts to collaborate with and assist those who are already so engaged. Most fundamentally, this is the goal of the Faith-Based Community Initiative. The President's initiative began in 2001 by documenting discrimination by Federal grant programs against faith-based groups. Subsequently, President Bush issued Executive orders to ensure equal treatment of all grant applicants, regardless of their religious nature. Three additional Executive Orders No.'s 13198, 13280 and 13342, established 11 offices in the White House and 10 executive branch agencies in order to realize the intent of the equal treatment orders. Their work has focused on cooperation of the Federal bureaucracy, the grant programs themselves and on communicating these efforts to service organizations throughout the country. H.R. 1054 seeks to make the White House Office of Faith- Based and Community Initiative and its 10 agency offices permanent. Such a proposal, however, compels us to investigate the experience of previous White House Administrations and more simply, what other entities currently exist with similar missions. Moreover, the subcommittee will examine the successes and shortcomings of the President's faith-based and community initiatives to understand what these experiences may tell us about how far we have come and where we need to go. The efforts of past Presidents clearly illustrate the Bush administration's effort to represent a common sense addition to at least a decade and a half of Presidential vision and leadership. In 1989, President George H.W. Bush created the White House Points of Light Office. After 4 years of national leadership in support of grassroots service organizations, President Bush passed a four-pillared White House office to President Bill Clinton. From 1993 to 2001, Clinton consolidated this office and eventually added AmeriCorps, and sent forth volunteer citizens to grassroots service organizations his predecessor had sought to bolster. At the beginning of President George W. Bush's administration, establishing a new White House office appears like a reasonable next step. The White House Faith-Based and Community Initiative effort adds to previous efforts by trying to instill fairness in the Government grant system and ensure the rights of religious services groups. While this is a logical and necessary step, it has not been entirely successful. For instance, in the areas of food stamps issuance and providing drug treatment, groups intended to be treated equally have ironically been punished. More troubling perhaps is that many potential programmatic successes have been blunted because of little or no cooperation from State and local governments. As the subcommittee considers the merits of H.R. 1054, which has been assigned to this subcommittee, Members may consider additional changes to the law so that Americans in their time of need receive the greatest possible impact from the compassion of their neighbors. Already existing White House offices, the Faith-Based and Community Initiative, and State and local efforts are uncoordinated, creating confusion and frustration amongst America's grassroots services groups. Creating a comprehensive compassion strategy through executive branch reorganization may be necessary for the long-term accomplishment of reaching our fellow Americans in their time of need. I would ask if any other Members have opening statements? Congressman Owens, Congresswoman Watson. [The prepared statement of Hon. Mark E. Souder and the text of H.R. 1054 follow:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.439 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.440 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.429 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.430 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.431 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.432 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.433 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.434 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.435 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.436 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.437 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.438 Mr. Owens. I want to commend the chairman for holding this hearing and I appreciate the effort that is moving forward to codify a program that has been in existence now for more than 4 years which has attracted my attention because of the fact that I was formerly commissioner of a community development agency in New York which was responsible for the Community Action Program under the Economic Opportunity Act. The Economic Opportunity Act had at its center the community action programs which were designed to reach down into the communities and allow local community organizations to run programs for the benefit of the poor constituents. Large numbers of churches participated in that program. Large numbers of churches sponsored programs and did them very well. During the time I was commissioner, we had a program which had 26 community corporations which had big contracts with subcontracts under them to other agencies. The total number of agencies under the umbrella of my agency was about 500 agencies providing programs all the way from recreation and after school care programs to economic development programs, programs related to housing development, a whole range of programs under the Economic Opportunity Act. That knowledge and whole set-up is part of history but I assure you it is not lost. It is there in the archives for everyone to see. I applaud the effort by the Bush administration to reach down to community groups; they have been starved for a long, long time. That program was discredited because it didn't have a proper power base, in my opinion, to keep it going, but it was a good program nevertheless. For small amounts of money, we got a return on programs run by local community groups, including church groups. Now we have the same thing which has returned in another form. My great fear here is whereas the Economic Opportunity Act and all the parts under it were codified, were authorized by Congress, had a clear set of criteria, clear procedures as to how you applied, and a fair doctrine in terms of the distribution of the funds. The distribution started with identification of the areas in the country that had the highest poverty rate. So a poverty area was clearly defined, the indices of poverty were clearly laid out and within that poverty area, choices were made by local advisory groups in connection with a designated community action agency. As I said, my agency was an agency for New York City. Each one of the 26 areas had a separate advisory body, a community corporation board that made the decisions for that local area. I am saying all this because I think if you are passing out taxpayers' money, there ought to be a clear criteria, ought to be a clear set of priorities and my great concern about the present initiative, and I know there are many other concerns about the fact that you are using religious groups and giving them the privilege of selecting their personnel and a number of other issues which I don't belittle, they are important issues. I am in favor of the program going forward and letting the Supreme Court decide the nature of those other issues because I think it is long over due that we had some kind of program that returned to offering some kind of resources to local communities. Those resources ought to be distributed in a fair and open manner. There ought not be the present situation where it is generally felt in my community and large numbers of churches want to know what can they do to become a part of it and want to know, do you have to be a Republican, do you have to be one of the favored few, do you have to be smiled upon by certain political operatives. It is not clear what the answers are because the way the money has been distributed up to now, there has been no criteria. The information about the program was rather scant for the first 3 years, I think. Lots of written information is available now, you can get information on the Web site now, but 2 or 3 years ago, I couldn't get the same information. It was all passed around in sort of closed circles. Large amounts of money were distributed, $2 billion to $3 billion was distributed without codification of the kind this bill proposes. It raises many issues. There was an article in the New York Times that I think brings it home and with your permission, Mr. Chairman, I would like to enter this article in the record for all who would like to understand my concerns. This is an article that appeared in the New York Times on May 3, 2005 and talked about ``Hispanic Group Thrives on Faith and Federal Aid'' and focused on one particular group but described how the whole program works. At one point, this paragraph stuck out in my mind and I will close with this paragraph. It said, ``A few months before last November's election, Labor Secretary Elaine Chao took Mr. Cortes' advice, flying to Florida to give his organization $2.8 million for a youth employment program. In 2003, when the group began a housing initiative, a kick-off event attracted Mel Martinez, who at that time was the Federal Housing Secretary, who is running for Senator in Florida, and a $300,000 contract followed to counsel homebuyers. ``The current issue of Nueva Esperanza's newsletter shows Senator Bill Frist, a Tennessee Republican and the Majority Leader, handing over a $500,000 check from his charitable foundation for the group's work on preventing AIDS.'' That last sentence relates to a charitable contribution, it was not taxpayers' money. The other sums that were mentioned were taxpayers' money. What criteria was used? How do you qualify? Do you compete with other people and why did it all come just before the election? These are the kinds of questions I think we ought to ask and answer. As we go forward to provide a program which I think is very much needed, let us clean it up and make certain it is a program where the taxpayers' funds are made available on equal footing for everyone and that they are targeted to priority areas where you have the greatest need. I ask unanimous consent to put this article into the record, New York Times, May 3, 2005. Mr. Souder. I have unanimous consent that we will include that. [The information referred to follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.001 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.002 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.003 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.004 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.005 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.006 Mr. Souder. Mr. Cummings. Mr. Cummings. Mr. Chairman, I want to thank you for holding this hearing. I want to say from the very outset, that I am the son of two preachers, my mother and father, so these comments are made with a full appreciation for church. I am also one who, as a lawyer and before coming to the Congress, represented a lot of churches. Today we begin the second hearing on faith-based program activity, specifically on H.R. 1054, legislation introduced by Representative Green to establish the Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives in the Executive Office of the President. The first hearing on H.R. 1054 was held last Tuesday, June 14 before the Subcommittee on Federalism and the Census. H.R. 1054 would make permanent the Faith-Based Office within the White House and 10 agency offices. It would also express a sense of the Congress regarding the rules which should guide participation of faith-based organizations in Federal social service programs. Let me be very clear. I do not object to the Federal Government finding ways to strengthen ties to faith-based organizations. I get very upset when this discussion comes up and some folk try to make it appear that there are Members of Congress that actually have something against faith-based organizations doing public type work. Nothing could be further from the truth. I would imagine if you polled the Congress, probably 99 percent of us now support the work that faith-based organizations have done and support them as long as the taxpayer dollar is being spent effectively and efficiently, and that those dollars are not used to discriminate against folks. Faith-based, non-profit and community-based organizations have long been involved in addressing the needs of families, individuals and communities. Churches and other faith-based organizations in my congressional district continue to answer the call of those in distress, in need of a place to rest and a refuge away from drugs, addictions and other ills. To support such efforts, we should encourage the good works of good people to help those who cannot help themselves. While encouraging good works, we need to carefully scrutinize and review services provided by faith-based organizations. We need to know the extent of services provided; we need to know who is and who is not being served; and we need to know if the services work, again, going back to effectiveness and efficiency. Are they successful? The success of these programs remains an important issue to be determined. In September 2002, the Government Accountability Office released a report that I requested on charitable choice. The report found there is no data to support the opinion that faith-based organizations service providers perform as well as or better than others. It is 2005 and we still have no way to measure success of a faith- based program. I also have serious concerns regarding the administration's approach to faith-based initiatives. In no uncertain terms, I object to the use of Federal funds to support religious discrimination. Religious discrimination in hiring for programs funded by the Federal Government is simply wrong. It is equally objectionable for religious organizations to take Federal money, my money, my constituents' tax dollars, and turn away people because they do not subscribe to a particular religion or faith. I object to the entities receiving Federal funds if they cannot separate their religious activities from their secular activities or services. I object to the use of Federal funds to proselytize. I object to relaxing State licensing and certification standards for substance abuse counselors. The poorest and least served deserve to receive the best treatment available in their time of need. They must not be used as guinea pigs by unlicensed professionals or subject to unproven methods. That is not to say that faith-based programs do not work. It is just that they should be to standards and we must be able to measure them. Finally, I would object to diverting scarce funding from established public and non-profit organizations. Just recently, there was a conference of ministers where as we debated and were concerned, Mr. Chairman, about No Child Left Behind not having enough money, there comes a minister who was in charge of an organization telling preachers how they can get No Child Left Behind money. He has a business apparently doing that. I have said it before and I will say it again, this diversion will only serve to undermine current programs and create a smokescreen by seeming to do more with less. I am also concerned that as we take dollars and give them to faith-based organizations, are we then taking $10 or more away for things that are done the way they have been done in the past, in other words, by traditional organizations. Taking away scarce Federal resources from current providers is a very real problem that can be devastating. This was recently highlighted in an article which appeared in the May 17, 2005 edition of the Washington Post entitled, ``Two Fronts in the War on Poverty: Bush seeks more aid for church groups; others face uncertainty.'' The paper read as follows: ``Here in Baltimore,'' and by the way, in my district around the corner from my house, a city noted for its unpretentious charm but also its deep social problems, ``the Federal shift away from traditional community development programs has generated widespread uncertainty. While the anti-poverty groups are confronted with an uncertain future, church-based organizations that often provide similar services but often have less experience are flourishing.'' Mr. Chairman, I wish to thank you again for holding this hearing. We need continued examination of the President's approach to faith-based initiatives and more specifically, whether we really need to establish a permanent Faith-Based Office within the Executive Office of the President. With that said, we need to determine what works and find ways to better assess the participation of faith-based organizations in Federal social service programs. The American people have entrusted us in good faith to be responsible stewards with their hard-earned tax dollars. This demands that federally supported social programs, whether faith-based or secular in their orientation, be effective and efficient in carrying out their mission. In the midst of that examination, let us also not forget our obligation to the principles of religious tolerance and non-discrimination. The struggle against discrimination and religious intolerance unfortunately remains with us. Even in this new century so rich with opportunity to right the wrongs of our past, we must ensure that H.R. 1054 is not a step in the wrong direction. I want to take a moment to thank Mr. Scott for addressing this issue so many times all over the country and just trying to make sure that all are clear as to what these faith-based initiatives really mean. With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back. [The prepared statement of Hon. Elijah E. Cummings follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.007 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.008 Mr. Souder. Any other Member wishing to make an opening statement? Congresswoman Watson. Ms. Watson. I want to add my thanks to those of the others for the Chair bringing this most timely issue up for a committee hearing. I, like my colleagues, think that services in the community ought to be provided through those who provide them best and who show results. Believe me, in a district like mine, I have thousands of churches that do have programs, Head Start programs, after school programs, rehab programs, etc. I think they are entitled to Federal funds as well. Here is where I draw the line. I feel that unless we very clearly state in the provisions and the regulations state that any group receiving Federal funds through a faith-based and community initiative cannot discriminate as far as color, creed, religion or sexuality. I believe if we are using public dollars, those are dollars from taxpayers, that we have to make it very clear because why should not someone who does not believe in religion but has a tremendous need be restricted from going in to a program if it is funded by Federal dollars. These are issues we have to think about, reflect on and come up with a fair policy. I have another concern too. That is, I know that there is going to be proselytizing on the side. You walk into a facility and it is a Southern Baptist, so on and so forth, why would they not want to encourage the young people to take a serious look at their preachings? I am a Catholic. I am the granddaughter of someone who was in the convent for 13 years. Obviously, she came out. [Laughter.] They do an excellent job of educating children. My grandmother did that in the home. There is never a time there is not a relationship to their religious principles, dogmas and beliefs. So we have to analyze, we have to take an in-depth look at what we put into law, what policies we make when it comes to faith-based funding for those programs out there that are so direly needed. I am very appreciative, Mr. Chair, that we have this opportunity to hear from our presenters, to raise the questions and to discuss this program. Thank you, so much. Mr. Souder. Mr. Gutknecht. Mr. Gutknecht. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I apologize, I was not going to say anything but I want to attach myself to remarks that were just made at least in part because the point was made that really needs to be reminded here and that is, this is not so much a debate about how much is going to be spent; it is a debate about who gets to do the spending and who can do it the most efficiently. I think we can have this discussion about discrimination, what level of discrimination is acceptable but I think we also have to understand there is going to be a certain level of discrimination. We discriminate every day and I don't think we should force organizations, let me say in my case, I don't think we should force Catholic schools to hire people who are anti-Catholic. At some point there is some level of common sense that we have to use and that could be true of any organization. I also want to share a quick story that I heard from John Fund who is an editorial writer for the Wall Street Journal. He used this analogy in front of an audience once and I have stolen this, and I try to give him credit for it. He asked people to visualize that you go home from this meeting today and you open your mail and there is a letter there from an attorney's office from a long way away. You open up that letter and realize you have been named an heir to an enormous fortune, that you didn't even know existed. All of a sudden you are wealthy beyond your wildest dreams and you think about that and think, I would like to do something to help people less well off than I, I would like to do something to help my fellow human beings. You think about that because this is a windfall and you would like to donate a significant portion of this. You think about that for a while and then he asked the audience, how many of you, the first thing you thought was, I know, I will give the money to a Federal program and you can almost hear snickers in the audience because we all know that if you really want to help people who are down and out, probably the least efficient thing you can do is run it through a Federal bureaucracy. So the idea here, is there a way that we can use some of those institutions that are in the neighborhoods, that are in the communities, that are doing good things every day and they are doing it with very little overhead. They are doing it not because it is a job, but because it is a mission. I don't know whether this can succeed. To be really blunt, I am not sure you can co-mingle Federal programs and the charitable instincts that most Americans have, but I think it is worth a try. I hope we don't all find our own little petty reasons to make certain that it doesn't succeed. Whether we know it or not, there are literally millions of Americans out there in all kinds of cities, towns and communities all around who are counting on these kinds of programs, and counting on religious leaders to help change their lives and change their futures. This is a great experiment. We are going to find out if it can work. Mr. Souder. Mr. Davis. Mr. Davis. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I will be brief and associate myself with some of the remarks already made by other members of the subcommittee. Let me commend and congratulate both you and Mr. Cummings for the tremendous work that this subcommittee does. I know you have been all over the country holding hearings. I don't know any other subcommittee that has as much work activity as I have seen generated in this one. I simply want to appreciate the leadership that both of you have displayed as we wrestle with some of the toughest issues, questions and problems facing our country. I come from a strong faith tradition like many other Members of the Congress. As a matter of fact, the church in my community is the primary provider of services, Catholic Charities, Catholic hospitals, Lutheran Family Services, Baptist College, Methodists for Church Renewal. You could go on and on and on. That has been tradition in many communities throughout the country. It is somewhat difficult to see what it is we are talking about changing. Most of those institutions apply for a not-for- profit chart, get themselves a 501(c)(3) tax exemption and they go ahead and run programs. There are some who argue about the provision of services and whether or not certain activities ought to be licensed or codified and even though I am a psychologist, I can attest to the fact that I have seen faith activities that I thought were more successful in helping people rid themselves of substance abuse or alcoholism, so I have no problem whatsoever with the methodology, with the concept or the structure. I do believe that we are walking on shaky ground when we create opportunities and encourage institutions that are supposed to be the best in our land to discriminate against other people because they may not be the same in terms of their affirmation of faith. As a matter of fact, I recall one of the hearings suggesting if there was an institution that had some services to provide, that I could not work at because I did not profess that same kind of religious faith, then I don't want the service either. I would rather that it go somewhere else. In the street, we call that help the bear. If I can't work there and I have all the credential, I meet all the requirements other than the fact that I don't express the same faith, to be denied that opportunity, then I would just as soon be denied the service. I hope as we move this discussion and as we codify our institutionalize the concept of faith-based realities, that we not create a structure that encourages what should be the best institutions amongst us to become the worst institutions amongst us. I thank the witnesses for coming to testify and certainly for the work they have done on this initiative. I applaud Representative Scott who has been passionate relative to the position that I hold. I thank you, Mr. Chairman, and yield back the balance of my time. Mr. Souder. Congresswoman Brown-Waite. Ms. Brown-Waite. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to express my appreciation for your holding this hearing to bring our attention to the current state of and some of the obstacles before the President's Faith-Based Initiative. As you know, our country has a long tradition of assisting individuals, families and communities that have not fully shared in America's prosperity. I am very proud of this heritage as are so many Members of Congress and feel the burden of carrying on the noble tradition. However, the Federal Government has the ability to better utilize its country's resources through hundreds of faith-based and community organizations to deliver effective care and assistance to those in dire need. In the past, the Federal Government has too often ignored or impeded the efforts of faith-based and community organizations through bureaucratic red tape and superficial obstacles, the Federal Government has hindered the delivery of services very often to communities in need. I applaud the efforts of the White House Office and the Centers for Faith-Based Initiatives that are working to support these essential organizations. Let me tell you about a faith-based organization back home in my district. It is known as Jericho Road Ministries. I have been there, I have talked with the individuals who are served by this wonderful organization. It is a rescue mission designed to provide up to 3 nights monthly, emergency shelter to homeless men and women in central Florida. Jericho Ministries also provides a 36-week rehabilitation program designed to help men reclaim their lives from the despair of homelessness and/or drug or alcohol addiction. This single organization has succeeded where government previously has failed by reforming drug addicts and transforming them into productive citizens. Let me tell you a brief story about a young man I met there. His name is Keith. Keith came to Jericho Road Ministries as a drug abuser without a job or a home, and certainly without hope. Today, after completing their rehabilitation program, he has worked his way up in just 3 short years to be the area manager of a major retail store. Guess what? On his days off, he comes back to Jericho Road Ministries and actually helps to counsel and inspire men seeking to reclaim their lives. I represent this wonderful organization and could tell you about so many others in the community that the community supports. I agree with Mr. Gutknecht, when you think about helping an organization that is worthwhile in your area, you don't say, I am going to strike a check to the Federal or State Government but rather to one of those organizations out there that you know and trust, and that has proven itself in the community. I certainly look forward to hearing the testimony of the distinguished panelists today so that we can join in our efforts in helping to continue the process of the faith-based and community organizations. I yield back the balance of my time, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Souder. I thank everybody for their statements. It is good to know we all agree. First, I want to ask unanimous consent that all Members have 5 legislative days to submit written statements and questions for the hearing record and that any answers to written questions provided by the witnesses will also be included in the record. Without objection, so ordered. I also ask unanimous consent that all exhibits, documents and other materials referred to by Members such as Mr. Owens did earlier may be included in the hearing record and that all Members be permitted to revise and extend their remarks. Without objection, so ordered. Before we hear the first panel, I would like to ask unanimous consent that we also have some additional materials to insert that staff has prepared. Our first panel consists of the Honorable Mark Green, a Member of the Congress from Wisconsin and the Honorable Robert Scott, a Member of Congress from Virginia. It is our standard practice to ask witnesses to testify under oath. However, because Members of Congress have already taken an oath upon entering the House of Representatives, it is not necessary to repeat that here. First, we would like to welcome Congressman Green. Thank you for joining us. You are recognized for 5 minutes to talk about the general subject of faith-based and also your particular bill that you have introduced. STATEMENTS OF HON. MARK GREEN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF WISCONSIN; AND HON. ROBERT C. SCOTT, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF VIRGINIA STATEMENT OF HON. MARK GREEN Mr. Green. Thank you for the opportunity to testify here today. The opening statements have all been very eloquent and I think in many ways laid out the issues that all of us must explore. I would like to talk briefly about the implementation of the Faith-Based Initiative and our plans to make its principles permanent. When President Bush issued his Executive orders to establish the Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives, he said ``Faith-based and other community organizations are indispensable in meeting the needs of poor Americans and distressed neighborhoods. Government cannot be replaced by such organizations, but it can and should welcome them as partners.'' I agree and I believe most Americans do as well. This community-governmental-organizational partnership is a critical part of helping our communities find tools to deal with the problems that society faces. While in some ways this partnership has not developed as quickly as it could or should, great progress has been made on a number of fronts. In order to build on this success, we need to continue reaching out to community groups trying to help our citizens who need it the most. Throughout history, faith-based organizations have shown that they understand the problems their communities are facing. After all, of course, they have relationships with the people they serve. They view those in need not as clients, but as neighbors. There are programs like Rawhide Boys Ranch in Waupaca County, WI, an organization that helps troubled boys straighten out their lives or Holy Redeemer in Milwaukee, WI, a church that helps feed the hungry and find shelter for the homeless. These are organizations that reach out to those in need, not in order to further a religious ideology but because their mission, quite simply, is to help their neighbors. Unfortunately, faith-based groups have been unnecessarily restricted from serving the public as well as they could because of the beliefs that they hold. I say unnecessarily because as long as these organizations open their doors to everyone and do not require participation in their religious operations, they can and should be allowed to participate in Federal grant programs. Instead of closing doors to these groups, we should open them wider so that more people have additional opportunities to receive services and improve their lives. We must honor and follow the first amendment to the Constitution when it says, ``Government shall not establish a religion,'' but that same amendment also requires us to honor ``religious liberty'' and that means allowing these groups to both practice their faith and serve their fellow Americans. The Bush administration has tried to accomplish this through its Executive orders creating the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives. The office and its liaisons and various agencies have the tools and relationships to break down barriers that hold these groups back unnecessarily. While more needs to be done, this Initiative has already helped people fight addiction, stop youth violence, find a home, stay out of prison and manage diseases like AIDS. Another way the administration has helped is by creating the Compassionate Capital Fund. Since its launch 3 years ago, it has provided $99.5 million in grants to 197 organizations and sub-grants to over 1,700 grassroots organizations; provided nearly $100 million for the Access to Recovery Program; provided new grant money to increase mentors for children of prisoners by 33,000 people. Overall, the office has increased grants to faith-based organizations by 20 percent. This is excellent work that we must continue to buildupon. Most importantly, we need to ensure stability within the program from one administration to the next. Furthermore, we must make sure that our offices are coordinating with their State liaisons to ensure that every State understands the opportunities that are available to them. Incidentally, many States are beginning to recognize the value of State faith-based offices. Michigan Governor Jennifer Granholm, a Democrat, created a State Office of Community and Faith-Based Initiatives recently that will enlist religious organizations to recruit mentors for foster children, provide lower cost prescription drugs and fight substance abuse. Unfortunately, many States haven't followed Michigan's example. Just over 25 States have created offices or established State liaisons to work with the White House Office of Faith-Based Initiatives. With increasing needs and budget concerns, States need these partnerships to help them maximize our communities to meet community needs. There is little doubt that some groups will continue to attack faith-based partnerships and fight any Government partnership with any group that has religious connections. Governor Granholm responded to such criticism when she said, ``This is not about a particular faith; this is about serving the citizens in the most effective way.'' Well said. This initiative is about serving people in the most effective way. We must embrace the work these organizations can do and work with them and the States to help meet our community and social challenges. With this initiative, we are finding mentors of kids in need, homes for the homeless, help for those with AIDS and alternatives to gains. No one should stand in the way of organizations that are responsibly trying to help these kids just because they happen to be faith-based. I am currently developing legislation that guarantees the Faith-Based Initiative will continue in the years ahead and that every organization that wants to help is able to. I believe we must show that government is committed to helping our citizens by making the Faith-Based Initiative a statutory feature to ensure equal treatment for all. This long term commitment provides critical stability to community groups and lets them know this is not just a passing government enterprise that will abruptly end with a new President. It also shows in statute what they can do consistent with the law and what they cannot do. There is more that the leaders of the Faith-Based Initiative have to do to better help those in need but they have done some great work to date. It is my hope this legislation will begin a larger debate about what new steps should be taken to help facilitate and foster the efforts of the Government and our Nation's benevolent service organizations. Again, I appreciate your holding this hearing and for your time and consideration. [The prepared statement of Hon. Mark Green follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.009 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.010 Mr. Souder. Mr. Scott. STATEMENT OF HON. ROBERT C. SCOTT Mr. Scott. Thank you for allowing me to testify today. I believe strongly that religious organizations can, they do and they should play an important and positive role in meeting our Nation's social welfare needs. It has already been pointed out that many faith-based organizations participate in Government contracts. The Catholic Charities gets about $1 billion a year and has way before any faith-based initiative, so we are not talking about allowing faith-based organizations to participate; they already do. There is a right and wrong way for Government to partner with religious organizations. So before we pass any legislation making permanent a faith-based and community initiative, we must ask and receive clear answers to the question of how does this initiative change present law. It is one thing to just recite the good parts of the present law, but we should not camouflage what the changes are. And we are not fighting faith-based participation; we are talking about the changes that are being proposed. To begin with, there are four issues we have to directly address and we need some straight answers to. First, does this initiative allow Government to directly fund a house of worship? Two, does the initiative permit a program using Federal funds to proselytize during the Government-funded program? Three, does the initiative change the law to permit discrimination in employment with Federal funds? Four, does the initiative change present law to permit the Government to award funds in a manner that displays favoritism to one particular religion over another religion or secular organization objectively more qualified to do the job? Until we get answers to those questions, we shouldn't be making anything permanent. Let me go into those in more detail. First, the direct funding of a house of worship. Directly funding religious organizations is a Constitutional quagmire. My full remarks go into that in detail. But also, not only from a Constitutional point of view but a policy perspective, it has problems because direct funding indicates we might be regulating the churches, we might be subjecting the churches to Government scrutiny and audits, and we may undermine the vitality of churches and the community members who may be less inclined to dig a little deeper to pay for the services. Finally, it threatens interfaith peace by pitting one group against another. What happens when one faith beats out another on a 4-3 vote? Just how ugly is the next political campaign going to look? Second, on proselytization, I think there is a clear consensus that you should not proselytize during the Government-funded program whether that proselytization is paid for or not with Government funds. We ought to make it clear that you can get the full benefit of the Government program without being proselytized and we should make that clear. On employment discrimination, we have to be clear as to how the faith-based initiative changes present law. Since 1941, we have had a policy of no discrimination with Federal money. That was made clear 40 years ago in the 1960's, no discrimination with Federal money. We have to also be clear that when you talk about religious discrimination, if you get a pass on religious discrimination, racial discrimination is essentially unenforceable. Finally, we are suggesting a profound change in civil rights law. For the last 40 years, when an employer has a problem hiring the best person because of race or religion, the employer had a problem because the weight of the Federal Government is on the side of the victim of discrimination trying to get a job. Here we have a change in Government posture where they are now protecting not the victim of discrimination but trying to protect some right to discriminate. We prohibit discrimination in employment because we have found that it is morally reprehensible to have someone apply for a job and be turned down just because of race or religion. If we allow discrimination in Federal contracts, we certainly lose our moral authority to impose racial and religious discrimination laws on individuals. I take this personally because anybody my age who has been discriminated against, not being able to eat at the lunch counter, not being able to go to certain movies, getting stuck in the back of the bus, so when somebody suggests what is the problem with Catholics hiring Catholics or Whites hiring Whites or anything like that, I take it personally. If someone is going to change the law and allow this discrimination, I just want to let them know that we are not going to be silent as they try to change those laws. On the issue of favoritism and objective merit, right now faith-based organizations have the right to apply and compete. Does this or does it not allow favoritism for one religion over another? If you have another religious group and a secular group with objectively more qualified proposals, can you give favoritism to another organization or not? Finally, let me say a quick word about vouchers. Many of the Constitutional issues that apply to direct funding do not apply to vouchers but you do have governance problems, one of which is it is virtually impossible to guarantee the availability of services where people with vouchers are coming and going and quality control is virtually impossible to apply. Whatever the problems churches may have in getting Federal grants, all small organizations have so there may be some common ground on providing technical assistance, community action agencies or other ways to provide assistance to small groups trying to get Federal contracts, but they should not be able to discriminate as they do it. We are not talking about expanding the number of people that can get contracts. Any organization that can sponsor a program under this faith-based initiative could do it anyway if it agreed not to discriminate in employment. Again, I want to focus the attention on the four questions I asked: can you directly fund a church; can you proselytize during a program; what is the deal on discrimination; and favoritism. And how does this change present law because right now, faith-based organizations can and do apply for Federal grants and sponsor Federal programs and they do it like everyone else--they use the money for which it was appropriated and don't discriminate in employment. [The prepared statement of Hon. Robert C. Scott follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.011 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.012 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.013 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.014 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.015 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.016 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.017 Mr. Souder. Thank you for your testimony. If we can agree to disagree on some of fundamental characterizations, I believe that your statement proposes to discriminate against those who would practice a consistent faith and whether they should be eligible for Government grants may be another question. We will debate that. I believe for you to say a church must hire somebody who disagrees with that church in effect says a church that applies a consistent philosophy through their organization is not eligible, is not welcome to participate in antipoverty programs. I understand that position; we have argued that many times on the House floor, many times in the Education Committee, you guys argue in the Judiciary Committee, but I wanted to focus very particularly on the legislation today and first ask Mr. Green a technical question. It looks to me like in the Sense of Congress Section, Section 7, you would address some of the questions that Mr. Scott raised, but fundamentally your bill tries to put this in as a directorate. It would have to be debated as we went through the legislative process. Is that correct? Mr. Green. You are correct. In the opening remarks of my esteemed colleague and some of the opening statement, references were made to profound changes in current law. That is not what we are doing here. We have the advantage of having had the Executive orders in place now for several years as the gentleman mentioned, and we have a history or track record. My goal with this legislation is largely to make sure it does not expire. A lot of these organizations that are hoping to be able to utilize Federal funds to help lift lives and heal communities are now looking at the possibility that it may all go away in 3 to 3\1/2\ years' time. I hope to provide some stability and predictability. Second, the other important reason for putting this into statute and codifying it is to create clear guidelines on what they cannot do, which I think is as important as anything. A number of Members have rightly raised concerns. I think the best way to address those concerns is to spell them out, as has been done in the Executive order but now give it the force of statute so it is there for everyone to see what an organization can do and more importantly, what it cannot and should not do. Mr. Souder. In your opinion, in the Sense of Congress Section of this bill, Section 7, does this freeze the Executive orders or would a new President be able to issue other Executive orders within this framework? Mr. Green. I don't know the answer to that, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Souder. Because in many of these, we deal with it bill by bill. For example, it may come up in the Head Start bill, it is part of welfare reform and the question is whether that will be continued. I think one of the fundamental questions we need to work through in your bill, because I see the arguments for both from our perspective codifying in the law more generally and on the other hand, would this apply to programs we have never legislated on? How do we work through the actual implementation? I wanted to ask this of Mr. Scott. Ironically, one of the problems we have right now is it is fine to say we can't move this bill until we get some answers from the administration. The administration refuses to testify. The reason they refuse to testify is because they say right now the office is under the White House directly, therefore, it is pre-decisional information. They are not subject to the Congress, that we can bring people forward from the different agencies but the different agencies with pressures from OMB and from the White House directly in many cases don't actually control the programs. I find myself in a very ironic position. Personal friends with people who are administering the program, supportive of a particular program, but basically I have a Constitutional question right now. If programs are going to be directed directly out of the White House and by OMB, should there not be congressional oversight even if I happen to agree with them? Certainly I believe there should be congressional oversight should the White House change parties and then we are doing oversight but I am trying to be consistent enough to say I believe it ought to happen regardless of who is in charge, even if I like what is going on. Do you have a fundamental opposition to what Mr. Green is trying to do by codifying this so we can actually get oversight? Mr. Scott. You have asked a lot of different questions. One is how you get the prohibition against discrimination, where that came from, particularly in light of the exemption under Title 7. The prohibition against discrimination has been kind of a compilation of things but the most direct prohibition against discrimination has been in President Johnson's 1965 Executive order which expanded Executive orders going back since 1941. Mr. Souder. Can I clarify what my comment was? In Congressman Green's bill in Title 7 under ``Sense of Congress,'' things related to discrimination. The question is, this bill could theoretically be done two different ways. It could have the first six sections which look to me like they are mostly making the office permanent and then Section 7 which may or may not since it is the sense of Congress, have the effect of codifying the Executive orders. If we did that, you would have a problem with the bill? Mr. Scott. Yes, I would have a real problem because it depends on which Executive order you codify. If you codify Johnson's Executive order, then that would be fine. President Bush, as you indicated, signed another Executive order which allowed discrimination. Some bills have specific prohibitions against discrimination. You mentioned Head Start and some others which have specific prohibitions against discrimination. You can't change statute with an Executive order. So if you allow discrimination in all programs, by statute, then you are right. You could not change that by Executive order. It is interesting you mentioned it was under the White House and not under anybody's authority. It asks the question: why are these programs in the White House and not in the various agencies if you are funding certain programs? The agencies fund programs the old-fashioned way. You fund the best program by objective standards. If that is not what you are doing, what are you doing? Is it religious discrimination, is it favoritism, is it politics or what? Why is this thing run out of the White House? If it is a health program, why isn't it run out of Health? If it is a housing program, why isn't it run out of Housing? Those are the real questions. In response to another question you asked, why should someone of one religion have to work with somebody of another religion, whatever you think about it, I thought we had decided that in the 1960's where whether you like to or not, whether you are devoutly religious or not, even with your own private money, we have decided that religious discrimination was so odious that we decided it ought to be illegal. In the 1960's, we had the votes. There is obviously a reconsideration of whether or not people ought to have to work with people of different religions and we are revisiting the question. Mr. Souder. I was trying to avoid the argument but as you know full well, we have a difference of opinion on the interpretation of the 1964 Civil Rights Act as it relates to religious discrimination, the courts have not been consistent in how they have interpreted this and that is why we have had to do all sorts of things. Mr. Scott. The courts have been consistent. Mr. Souder. Oh, no. They have said that Catholic schools can get money for buses; they said Catholic schools can get money for computers even if they hire only Catholics. As you correctly pointed out in the vouchers, in the vouchers it is even more confusing. There it is more of a management question, they allow the vouchers but even in some direct funding, they allow discrimination to occur. Mr. Scott. You mentioned discrimination. Title 7 gives them the right to discriminate. The Free Exercise Clause gives them the right to discriminate. When you are dealing with Federal money and the right to discriminate, President Johnson's Executive order has been the law of the land since 1965. If you are selling rifles to the Defense Department, if you discriminate in your manufacturing process, whether or not they are the best and cheapest rifles, the Defense Department won't buy them from you. Mr. Souder. I am sure we will hear more and we will continue to argue that question. Let me clarify because I don't agree with your interpretation. We have argued this on the floor and will continue to argue but the way I understood what you said was in effect, even if it wasn't codified in this bill, even if our view was not put in, you would have a philosophical problem with a codified White House, Office of Faith-Based Initiative because you think it ought to be run inside each agency as a health program and so on? Mr. Scott. I think you ought to answer some questions so everybody knows what is going on. I have asked four questions and you can't get an answer to those questions. Mr. Souder. Because it isn't codified? Mr. Scott. I don't know why you can't get an answer. We have been struggling and it took us about 3 years to get an answer to the question, can you discriminate and you got all kinds of confusing, contradictory, evasive kinds of answers and finally after we had some rifle shot amendments that said no, you can't discriminate, then people had to kind of acknowledge I guess that is what is going on. You finally got an answer to that question but are there favorites? Can you practice favoritism of one religion over another? If not, what are we talking about? Mr. Souder. Whether this committee moves ahead with the bill or not and this is a challenge because we are having this with ONDCP too because in our ONDCP reauthorization, we had some similar debates because technically the Drug Czar is under the Office of the White House but it has been a codified office, so they have to respond. Can this bill be drafted where we could either put in certain things or can the bill be drafted such that there is an office that as a practical matter, yes, the Health, Education, Housing, all the different departments have an office of Faith-Based and the funding runs through that. Everybody knows under every modern President, it doesn't matter whether it is a Democrat or Republican, that OMB is making a lot of the day-to-day decision type of input or you can lose your position, which is hard enough to oversee but we also know that in every White House, you have advisors to the President. The question is how much do those advisors to the President work as advisors to the President versus management, kind of line function? Is it a dotted line or a direct line that goes over to the different agencies? To the degree that this office works as a more filled in direct line as opposed to a dotted line, it ought to have more congressional oversight. The question is, should we be moving a bill that tries to move it in that direction regardless of how the wording is? Mr. Green and then I will yield. Mr. Green. Mr. Chairman, with this legislation, we simply took what we thought was the path of least resistance in terms of drafting it. We are open to changes. There is nothing magic about the terminology, the actual language. The goal here is to ensure the Faith-Based Initiative, forget the office, I view it as something separate, the Faith-Based Initiative continues on. I recognize that Presidents are going to always want to implement and put things into practice in their own way in terms of where they put the offices and such. What we wish to codify are the principles of the Faith-Based Initiative. That, to me, is more important than the office and where that office is located, whether it is in the White House or in individual agencies. It is principles we hope to codify and certainly we are open to changes in this legislation and modifications. Mr. Scott. Let me say briefly that is what we are trying to figure out, what principles we are trying to codify, the four questions, and we ought to talk about how this changes present law. Reciting the good parts of present law, that is nice but how will this bill change present law by instituting some policy, and then can you directly fund a church, can you proselytize during the program, can you discriminate and are we talking about favoritism? Get a straight answer to those questions, then we will know what we are talking about. Mr. Souder. Thank you. Mr. Cummings. Mr. Cummings. I want to start with the last question Mr. Scott asked, the question of favoritism. Mr. Green, do you think faith-based organizations have been discriminated against in the past? Mr. Scott says these organizations like Catholic Charities and some others have gotten all kinds of money. I am trying to figure out whether it is your belief that the system that has been used, however Catholic Charities and others get their moneys, is there something wrong with that system? Mr. Green. First off, I guess I would disagree with the characterization that these organizations are getting money. Under the Faith-Based Initiative, there are pretty strict standards and accountability for how that money is spent. This is money that doesn't belong to an organization, nor does it belong to a Federal agency. This is money obviously that belongs to those in need, those who are being served. Second, I think the problem has been not so much with the Catholic Charities and Lutheran Social Services of the world, those are large organizations, they have substantial staff to help them wade through the myriad of regulations and paperwork, bureaucracy and red tape that any organization has to go through. The real target for the Faith-Based Initiative has been those smaller organizations that don't have those kinds of resources or the same ability to wade through the regulations and barriers. That is what we are hoping the Faith-Based Initiative will help, that we will cause small community and faith-based organizations around the country to take a look at what is being done, what Catholic Charities may be doing, a Rawhide or an Urban Help and say to themselves, that need exists in my community and we can do that. We don't know how to, where can we turn to for help and guidance? Who can assist us through this process? Who can help us out? That is the idea to me behind the Faith-Based Initiative, creating a resource that these organizations can go to. Just as importantly as helping them affirmatively be able to serve those in need, it is absolutely as important to let them know what it is they cannot do, what those rules and restrictions are so they don't cross the lines that many have raised and should be raised. That is part of what the Faith-Based Initiative will do as well, show them what they cannot do. Mr. Cummings. So one aspect of it would be more or less counseling, is that what you are saying? Mr. Green. Counseling, predictability, something that is there for them to be able to take a look so they understand. Mr. Cummings. I didn't mean to imply in any way they were getting money for themselves. I know the money is being used to carry out wonderful purposes. On one hand, there are those who really want to see these organizations do their thing and do these wonderful things but at the same time, can you understand the sensitivity with regard to discrimination. I forget how Mr. Scott said it but there are many people, and our country is becoming more and more diverse every second, who have been discriminated against and who have been held back big time. Not only were they held back but their mothers, grandmothers, grandfathers, great grandfathers were held back because of discrimination. Can you understand that whenever discrimination raises its head, there are a lot of people who will get upset about it because they know what it feels like. I am just curious. Mr. Green. Absolutely. First, let me say that I think part of reaching out to the community of faith, many of these organizations in neighborhoods that have specific needs and very special needs reaching out to them I think will ensure the services we deliver to these neighborhoods will be as effective as possible. I think we will do a better job in reaching out to heal neighborhoods and to work with those in need. Second, again I come back to it, that is why I think it is so very important for us to spell out the rules for what cannot be done, so there isn't discrimination. I think that is very important indeed. Third, I think an important point, there is also the concept of religious freedom and freedom of expression, and I am Catholic. To say that my church, the Catholic church, and I am not suggesting you are saying this, but is not able to participate in the wonderful work that Catholic Charities does because it is a male-only priesthood, none of us are suggesting that obviously. We recognize that there are concepts of religious freedom here, that the Constitution provides we must not discriminate on religious grounds. It also provides freedom of religious expression. It is a sensitive area and an area where we have to tread carefully and it is an area where I think we have an obligation to all Americans to make sure we are very specific in those guidelines so that we don't creep into what you have rightly pointed out is a fear in this country, a well founded fear in too many places. Mr. Cummings. Mr. Scott. Mr. Scott. Very briefly. When you suggest there is no suggestion that any of this discussion has anything to do with what religious organizations do with their own money, the Catholic Church can do what it wants to, hire who it wants for a priest. That is not on the table for discussion. The question is whether or not they can participate in a federally funded program and take the Federal money and only hire men or only hire Catholics and deny employment opportunities with the Federal money, not with the church money, continue doing what they want with the church money, can they deny employment opportunities to people because of religion? As I indicated, if you have to pass on religion, you cannot enforce racial discrimination laws. When you talk about the small organizations, the small churches, those problems in dealing with Federal contracts apply to small churches, apply to small organizations, the crime watch organization, all these other unincorporated associations, they are going to have problems dealing with the paperwork of a Federal grant. Maybe we need some technical assistance or maybe we need to use the CAP agencies, community action agencies, to help administer the money so they can perform their good work but not have to do all of the paperwork. Again, I go back to the point on favoritism. How does this change present law? Are we going to allow organizations to be favored over more qualified organizations because we favor that religion or not? How does it change present law and the question of favoritism? Remember, any program that can get funded under the Faith-Based Initiative could be funded anyway if you agree not to discriminate in employment. Mr. Cummings. Mr. Scott, on the culture, President Bush in his State of the Union, I can't remember his exact words but basically he implied that if you are not allowed to discriminate, and I have heard it somewhat here today, if you are not allowed to discriminate, a religious organization, then it may affect the culture of the religious organization and what they are trying to do? I can't remember the exact words but I remember the impression. Mr. Scott. We went through that in the 1960's in past legislation that no matter how religious or devout you may be, in your own business, you cannot discriminate against people because of their race or religion. That was controversial but we decided it was so invidious we were going to make it illegal. If you were devout, whatever your devotion is, you are hiring people with your own money, you cannot discriminate in employment. Mr. Cummings. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Souder. Mr. Gutknecht. Mr. Gutknecht. I don't want to wear this thing out but I think this is the crux of the problem. It seems to me we all have to come up with a way to define this because so far, we have been fortunate. It strikes me that we haven't had more lawsuits than we have. I think we all share the notion that nobody in America should discriminate. I think we all agree on that but where it becomes problematic is when you start to define this in the statute, what is discrimination, what is not discrimination. Then it becomes incredibly complicated. We can all come up with examples whether it is this particular religion being forced to hire people to be part of this program who are very much opposed to the basic tenets of that religion. It is a very sticky wicket. Maybe we can't do that. Maybe it can't be done but I think you are imposing something on an organization if you force a black Baptist church to hire people who are clearly opposed and have real strong feelings about whatever that the tenets of that church are or in any of these circumstances, I am not sure how we define this. I think as has been indicated for the most part and there are some churches who have just said we are not going to play because if we go down this path, sooner or later we are going to be drawn into this web and we are going to be forced to play by a set of rules that begin to compromise the basic tenets of this faith. Maybe you can elaborate on that. Are you saying that a church should be forced to hire people who strongly disagree with certain teachings of that church? Mr. Scott. Not with the church money, no. With the Federal money or for the Federal purpose, which I think people have agreed pretty much it is a secular purpose--yes, you have to play by the same rules as everyone else. I guess the question of the employer just doesn't want to hire the person because of their religion, whose problem is that? You could be a devout whatever and you just don't like people of another religion and you are hiring people. Whose problem is that? Is that yours or is that the employee's problem? We decided in the 1960's, that is your problem. If you can't hire people of a different religion, then you are looking down the barrel end of a lawsuit. That is the way it has been since the 1960's. If you can't hire people, either you don't do business in the United States, you can't hire Title 7, I forget what the threshold number is, but if you hire more people than that, then you are looking at the barrel end of a lawsuit. I don't care how devout you are, how much you hate somebody's religion, you have to hire the best qualified or you are looking at a lawsuit. That is what we decided in the 1960's. You are right, it was a sticky wicket. Some White people don't like Black people, why should they have to hire them, why should they have to work with them? We decided in that in the 1960's and I am glad they did. I don't want to go back to where they can say I don't want to work with those people. Maybe we need to revisit it. Maybe it is a sticky wicket but that is the way it has been and that is the way I like it. Maybe others want to revisit it but you are right, it is sticky. That is the way it is, you hire the best qualified regardless of race or religion in the United States. Mr. Gutknecht. But in terms of qualifications, if somebody clearly doesn't agree with the basic tenets of a particular religion, then you say they still could be the best qualified person for that job? Mr. Scott. You are doing a Federal job; you are not doing a church job. You are being hired with Federal money. We are not even discussing what you do with the church money. We are talking about a Federal contract with the money, like the Head Start Program. You are providing an educational service, you are not providing religious education. It is Head Start education and with the Federal money, so no, you shouldn't be able to discriminate. If you can't work with people of different religions, I believe if the sponsor of the program can't work with people of different religions in the Head Start Program, then yes, I think the employer has a problem. If you have problems or you can't work with the people of different races and religions, maybe you ought not to be able to sponsor federally funded programs. This was debated. I was reading the Congressional Record and one of the Representatives from New York said, this is simple, stop the discrimination, get the money. Continue the discrimination, don't get the money. Mr. Gutknecht. Mr. Green. Mr. Green. It is an important discussion we are having but let me return us to where we are. We have now had an Executive order on the books for 3 years. It is being implemented and here aren't all the allegations that have been suggested by Mr. Scott. I am not aware of them having taken place. This is something we need to debate. On the other hand, it seems to be working quite well. Common sense is being applied. There are guidelines to what you can and cannot do, there are guides put out for faith-based organizations, particularly smaller organizations which might not always have the same level of sophistication and it is working. So we are not talking about dramatic changes in law. We are talking about what is working right now and trying to ensure that it continues to work into the future. This debate is an important one but many of these issues are being addressed quite effectively in the working world, the implementation of the Executive order. So that should give us some comfort here as we go forward. Mr. Scott. May I make a quick comment on that? Mr. Souder. Sure. Mr. Scott. Some of this hasn't happened because State laws prohibit discrimination. Although it may not be prohibited under Federal law, there may be State laws that prohibit discrimination. There is a serious question on whether or not a pervasively sectarian organization can get direct funding anyway. When President Clinton signed some of these bills--and his name is always thrown around as supporting this--in his signing statement, he made it clear there was kind of a catch 22. If you are a pervasively sectarian organization, he doesn't think you can get funding. If you are not a pervasively sectarian organization, you don't have an exemption under Title 7. So anyone who ended up with the money couldn't discriminate. I question whether or not people really think they have the right to discriminate and that is why we haven't seen the problems. Mr. Souder. The question goes in order of seniority in the subcommittee. Mr. Davis has left, so it is Ms. Watson. Ms. Watson. Thank you very much. I am reading the bill and apparently this is an attempt to make this a permanent program to establish an office and make it a permanent program. For the benefit of the audience, if passed and signed by the President, this becomes law and whenever you use the word shall it is a mandate and so I want to address this to Representative Green. I am looking at page 3, line 13, subsection 5, ``The Director shall help to integrate policies affecting faith-based and other community organizations across the Federal Government; shall coordinate public education activities designed to mobilize public support for faith-based and community initiatives.'' I really don't know what that really means and possibly it could be interpreted in a court of law. I go on to on that same page, line 24, it says ``Advise the President,'' this brings the President into the implementation of this program. It says, ``Advise the President on options and ideas to assist, strengthen and replicate successful faith- based and community initiatives.'' It goes on to say on page 4, ``to support and encourage faith-based and community initiatives.'' My interpretation would be to support the faith- based, faith-based initiatives rather than other kinds of community service programs. It goes on to say, ``Work to eliminate unnecessary legislative and regulatory barriers which impeded the efforts of faith-based.'' That means ease up the oversight and the responsibility we as selected officials have over the use of Federal programs. I have questions on almost every page and every line but the ones that popped out at me, it says under Sense of Congress, ``In the administration or distribution of Federal financial assistance, no organization shall be discriminated against on the basis of religion or religious belief.'' I didn't hear that in the debate. It is in this bill. So you can challenge if there is discrimination against someone who then would go into a program and ask to be hired because they were real qualified. I didn't hear that argument brought out. Mr. Green. If I can respond to that, that is not the discrimination you are referring to. It is referring to discrimination against organizations which happen to be faith- based, saying those organizations may not participate in Federal grant programs because they are faith-based. Ms. Watson. I am going to go through all these concerns and then you can respond. Then on page 9, lines 11 and 12, ``Any organization that receives Federal financial assistance to provide social services shall be prohibited from discriminating against beneficiaries or potential beneficiaries of the service it provides.'' You need to know that piece is in there. On page 10, line 4, ``Any faith-based organization that receives Federal financial assistance should be able to retain its independence and to continue to carry out its mission including the definition, development, practice and expression of religious beliefs,'' that worries me, ``provided that it does not use Federal financial assistance to support any inherently religious activities such as worship, religious instruction,'' and this says you can indoctrinate. We really have to look at the wording here. On the same page, line 19, ``Any faith-based organization that receives Federal financial assistance should be able to retain any religious terms in the organization's name, take religion into account in selecting board members and include religious references in any organization mission, statements or other chartering or governing documents.'' This is a Federal policy that you want to codify on a permanent basis. This Federal money is derived from tax moneys, my tax moneys, yours and everyone in this room who pays taxes. I cannot support a faith-based program that would take a look at me, a Catholic and say you cannot work here regardless of how qualified I am. I would like to see something in this bill that prohibits discrimination based on a whole series of things. I think it is unfinished and this is my point. Because you do not deserve my tax dollars if I am qualified and cannot work in your institution, I being a recipient and being a victim of discrimination over the years feel this very deeply, emotionally and passionately and anything that I have to do or vote on, I want to be sure there are protections so people like myself will not continue to be victimized only because we did not debate, discuss and think it through. Thank you for giving us something we can look at and we can analyze and we can suggest. Maybe we can come up with some amendments that will address my concerns. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Green. I appreciate what the lady said. I think the lady should take comfort from one of the provisions she read. The provision you read says, ``Any organization that receives Federal financial assistance, provides social services should be prohibited from discriminating against beneficiaries or potential beneficiaries on the basis of religion.'' That is what you have asked for. Ms. Watson. Exactly. I wanted to point that out. That gave me comfort but then as I read we are asking for a promotion of these faith-based programs, so I would like to see a provision in there. Mr. Green. If that provision is in there, it would have the force of law which should give you comfort. The promotion we are talking about is letting organizations know that they have the opportunity to participate because for years they have been told they need not apply. These organizations for years have been pushed away from being involved in delivery of Federal services. They have not had the ability, at least in their minds, to be able to participate in Federal grant programs. Particularly those smaller organizations that don't have the same level of sophistication or assets, resources that some of the well-known organizations have, like Habitat for Humanity. So that's the promotion that we're talking about. Many of the provisions that you have pointed to, again, are current Federal policy. And again, finally, I could not agree with you more with respect to the need for spelling out the clear policy and law that we cannot discriminate against beneficiaries on the basis of religion. That's why that provision is in there. Mr. Scott. Mr. Chairman, could I say just a word? That is, there is no prohibition against these organizations participating now. We want to know what the change in the law will be. Any program that can get funded under this faith-based initiative could be funded without the faith-based initiative, as long as they agree not to discriminate in employment. Second, there is a difference between beneficiary or potential beneficiaries and employment. Those are two different issues. I think there is a consensus that you shouldn't discriminate against beneficiaries, that is, students of the Head Start program. The question is whether you could discriminate in hiring teachers in the Head Start program. And finally, the Section 7 is a sense of Congress. Switching hats to my Judiciary Committee, I am not sure a Sense of Congress is even enforceable. I don't know what the deal is. Ms. Watson. If I might just respond. I think we need to go over line and verse and then try to clarify, so that we don't end up having suits and tying up the implementation of such a law in court. Because I would be the first one in court, if I walked in and someone said to me, well, you're Catholic. I know what it says there, but you're Black. Mr. Green. But it does say that. It does provide the protection that you've asked for. That protection is right--you just read through it. Ms. Watson. But I don't know what it means when it says, the Director shall advise the President how to promote a particular faith-based program, you see. I think we get into trouble with that. So I think what we need to do is to re-look at the provisions that are already in the bill, discuss them like we are doing here, and I appreciate this opportunity to bring out some of my concerns. Mr. Souder. Thank you. Mr. Owens. Mr. Davis. Mr. Davis of Illinois. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Representative Green, you just indicated that the organizations would be strictly prohibited from discriminating on the basis of religion. What could they discriminate on the basis of? Mr. Green. Well, it's a legal question, you would have to ask an attorney. Again, I think the legislation speaks for itself and makes it very clear that in terms of beneficiaries, that you cannot discriminate. Again, this doesn't change current law. This is an effort to codify existing policy and to make sure that what is taking place out there and is working continues beyond this administration. That's what this legislation seeks to do. It is not changing policy. Mr. Davis of Illinois. Well, perhaps you or Mr. Scott could tell me, say, the difference between, let's say that I have the Davis Temple Baptist Church. And I take myself two or three of my members, my choir director and my deacon board and the trustee board, and we decide to incorporate ourselves into the Davis Temple Foundation and go and apply for a grant, apply to the Internal Revenue Service and get ourselves a 501(c)(3) tax- exempt status and become the recipient. What is the difference between the Davis Temple Foundation and the Davis Temple Baptist Church, and they are the very same people with the same mission, with the same motivation, with the same purposes? What is the difference? Mr. Scott. If it is a separate organization, it would be looked at separately. Now, if you have a mission that is strictly religious, there would be very little difference. But usually, when you set up the separate 501(c)(3) organization, you set that up as a charitable organization, not a religious organization. When you receive money in the 501(c)(3), you are subject to the same law as everybody else is; when you receive money to perform a Government service, you have to use the money for which it was appropriated and you can't discriminate in employment. That's why I said, any program--that Davis Temple whatever, whether it is under this, under that--any program that could get funded under this bill, under the faith-based policy, could have been funded anyway if you would agree not to discriminate in employment. You may have to set up a 501(c)(3) or whatever. But if you are running a program that could have been funded anyway if you would agree not to discriminate in employment. So unless you're talking favoritism, basically in the faith-based initiative, all you're talking about is rolling back the clock on discrimination laws. Mr. Davis of Illinois. That's kind of my feeling. There has to be some underlying reason or some underlying cause. I mean, I hear that the institutions don't know that they can apply. I just don't know any that don't know that they can become a charitable organization and follow the same rules and regulations as other charitable organizations. I don't know any institutions that can get any smaller than what we call the store-front churches in the community where I live and work and have spent all of my adult life. It is difficult for me to rationalize the need to suggest that the only way these individuals are going to know that they can develop programs and apply for Federal resources is that we have a faith-based initiative operating out of the President's office. So I just have some serious difficulty understanding that, and think that there must be some reason beyond what I am hearing and what I know for us to feel the need to codify such a program as it is outlined in this bill. So I thank you gentlemen, but I just can't see the rationale. I can't see the logic. I yield back. Mr. Souder. Ms. Norton. Ms. Norton. This is testimony I would have very much liked to hear. I was ranking member on another committee. I have followed this issue very closely, because when I chaired the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, we issued religious discrimination guidelines. And they were very important to spell out broadly the protection against religious discrimination. And Title VII of the 1964 Act, which I administered and under which these guidelines were developed, of course, has very broad protection for religious organizations, essentially an exemption from the, in their activities from the discrimination laws. Not only their religious activities, but their secular activities, in their dealing with the money that is protected under the Constitution by the first amendment with their own religious-based money. Of course, whenever we deal in this sensitive area, we are bound by the first amendment's establishment of religion clause, which prohibits Government-financed or Government- sponsored indoctrination of beliefs of a religious faith. So this bill has been held up for years, because even though the House and Senate are full of people who agree and who have seen faith-based organization Constitutionally administer public funds, there seems to be something more desired. What particularly concerns me in my discussions over the years with Representative Scott is, of course, that we could see a great deal of public funds going to religious organizations which by their very nature are segregated. That is just out of tradition. Jews turn out to be mostly White. Black people go basically to churches which are mostly Black. Nobody has any criticism to be made of those. Social services have been handled across these religious lines. So the notion of saying, you can handle my funds and hire only people of your religion, to handle my funds, to handle my taxpayers' funds, seems to me to be a slam dunk unconstitutional matter. I would just like to ask this question. If we could get over the other issues that have been discussed here, would you agree that any such bill should clarify this matter right up front and say, any organization, any religious organization which in fact accepts public funds must not discriminate in the employment of people who are employed to distribute the services with public funds? That is my straight-out question. Would you be willing to have any such legislation clarify that if a religious organization accepts public funds, it agrees not to discriminate on the basis of race and religion in its employment practices only in the distribution, only in administering services using these public taxpayer funds? Mr. Souder. A brief answer by each one of you. We have 8 minutes left to vote. Mr. Green. I am not sure it is possible to give a brief answer. The first important point, this legislation has not been held up for years. I drafted it for the first time last fall. Ms. Norton. I meant the legislation of this kind. I didn't mean to refer to your bill. Mr. Green. This is different. And it is an important part of the response here. This is not a clean slate. This takes what is working well right now, and for which I have not heard allegations made, we have not seen lawsuits made, and would seek to codify them and to make sure that it exists beyond the expiration of this administration. So that should give us all some reassurance here. We do have protections spelled out, we do have laws on the books---- Ms. Norton. Would you agree that---- Mr. Green [continuing]. And so this---- Ms. Norton [continuing]. To such language in your bill? Mr. Green. I would be happy to work with the lady to look at what language is most appropriate. But I will not allow or I would not support language that forces faiths or religions to entirely surrender their religious independence and their religious expression. It is a fine line, and in my opening remarks we talked about how it is a sensitive area. We have a tightrope here that we have to walk. This goes back to the Clinton administration. They tried to draw a fine line. I think it is something that isn't easy that we need to do. But again, there is not a clean slate here. We have something now in place that is working. So that should be a reassurance to yourself and to many of the Members here who have expressed concerns. We can take a look at how the current Executive order is being implemented and how it is working, and we can take a look at allegations, if there are indeed allegations of discrimination in hiring and those are things I think are appropriate to look at. But again, this is not something new that we are creating here. Mr. Scott. Just very briefly, you don't have to surrender anything if you sponsor a federally funded program. You can do what you want with your church funds. With the Federal funds, any program that can get funded with Federal funds could be funded anyway if the sponsoring organization would agree not to discriminate. So that begs the question of, if that is all you are talking about. So there is no faith-based initiative without discrimination unless you are talking about favoritism, that is, that you could favor one religious organization over an objectively more qualified program sponsored by another religion or a secular organization. So unless you are talking favoritism, all you are talking about is discrimination. Furthermore, you know from your work on the EEOC that if you can't, if you have a pass on religious discrimination, racial discrimination is essentially unenforceable. Mr. Souder. I thank the gentlelady. I thank both of the gentlemen from Wisconsin and Virginia. We have five votes, it will be approximately 45 minutes and we will reconvene with the second panel. The subcommittee stands in recess. [Recess.] Mr. Souder. The subcommittee is reconvened. Our second panel is composed of Stanley Carlson-Thies, Director of Social Policy Studies at the Center for Public Justice; Mr. David Kuo, former Deputy Director of the White House Faith-Based and Community Initiatives; and Bobby Polito, former Director of the Center for Faith-Based and Community Initiatives at the Department of Health and Human Services. Since you are already here, if you will each stand and raise your right hands. [Witnesses sworn.] Mr. Souder. Let the record show that each of the witnesses responded in the affirmative. Thank you for your patience. That was--the last vote did not even occur, it was a frustrating process over there. The clock was moving pretty slowly. But now we don't plan to have any more votes the rest of this evening, so we should be able to get through the rest of the next few panels in an orderly manner. Thank you each for coming, for being willing to testify at this hearing, and we will start with Dr. Carlson-Thies. STATEMENTS OF STANLEY CARLSON-THIES, DIRECTOR OF SOCIAL POLICY STUDIES, CENTER FOR PUBLIC JUSTICE; DAVID KUO, FORMER DEPUTY DIRECTOR, WHITE HOUSE FAITH-BASED AND COMMUNITY INITIATIVE; AND BOBBY POLITO, FORMER DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR FAITH-BASED AND COMMUNITY INITIATIVES, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES STATEMENT OF STANLEY CARLSON-THIES Mr. Carlson-Thies. Thank you, Chairman Souder, and the subcommittee, for the opportunity to comment on H.R. 1054. I was on the original staff at the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives, serving until May 2002, and I worked particularly with the Centers for Faith-Based and Community Initiatives. I am now with the Center for Public Justice. We subcontract with the HHS Center for Faith-Based and Community Initiatives and the Corporation for National Community Service. I also consult with State governments. I am glad to support this bill to codify the structure and principles of the faith-based initiative. I will suggest some changes. I think the faith-based initiative is very important for revitalizing our society's help for the needy. Its importance cannot be measured by the relatively slow pace of change in the delivery of social services, a slow pace that we ought to expect, given the institutions and interests involved. The faith-based initiative is a lever, decisively bending the Federal system so that faith-based providers have an equal opportunity to partner with the Government without suppressing their religious character. Of course, Government collaboration with religious organizations is not new, but I think the critics are wrong to say that the partnership needed no reform. One Constitutional scholar, reflecting on the restrictive conditions that often accompany Federal funds, called Federal grant programs ``relentless engines of secularization.'' Of course, the White House Report on unlevel playing fields documented a series of barriers and said that the chief problem was ``an overriding perception by Federal officials that close collaboration with religious organizations is legally suspect.'' In the meantime, of course, the courts have shifted direction. In decisions that culminated with Mitchell v. Helms in 2002, the U.S. Supreme Court has shifted from the old ``no aid to religion doctrine'' to the concept of equal treatment which requires officials not to be biased against an applicant merely because of its religious character. The question is whether the applicant can provide the services while respecting the law. Congress responded to that legal development by adopting charitable choice four times, and President Clinton signed the bills into law. But I think his administration did not decisively level the playing field for explicitly religious organizations. By contrast, President Bush has made reforms a high priority. Most significant are three actions. One of them was the creation of the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives and the Centers for Faith-Based and Community Initiatives. The second was a promulgation of charitable choice regulations to guide State and local officials. The third I think is the President's December 2002 Executive order on equal protection for faith-based and community organizations which sets out equal treatment principles to cover Federal funds not governed by charitable choice and applies to State and local as well as Federal officials. Some have said that this Executive order improperly sidestepped Congress. I believe it was the administration's response to the Court's equal treatment requirement. Thus the Federal Government, I think, has been given a very significant reorientation. I commend Jim Towey and the Center directors for this. Yet more remains to be done. Let me note a few areas. First, the Federal Government should do more to inform State and local agencies about the equal treatment rules and to ensure their implementation. Without such leadership, it is no surprise that faith-based organizations often encounter local resistance. This problem also hampers the access to recovery program, which uses vouchers to offer a wider array of drug treatment services from a more diverse set of providers. Without sufficient Federal guidance, the pace of State innovation has been slow. Second, more guidance should be offered to faith-based organizations that collaborate with Government. Otherwise, despite their best intentions, the organizations may violate important rules and land in trouble. Third, the Federal Government should clarify whether a State or local government can restrict religious staffing, even when the Federal program rules have no such restriction. The confusion about this makes some faith-based organizations leery about collaboration. Fourth, I think the Government should more vigorously promote vouchers and social service programs. Indirect funding empowers beneficiaries and eases church-State concerns. I think these comments show the need for continued progress and not a change of direction. So I welcome this bill with its aim of further embedded institutions and principles of the faith-based initiative into the workings of the Government. But I would suggest just a few changes. First of all, the bill should require not merely departmental liaisons, but actual centers for faith-based and community initiatives. Centers have authority within their departments to investigate problems, recommend changes and gain the cooperation of program officials. A department ought to regard its center as essential to achieving the department's mission and not as an outpost to the White House. Second, I recommend modifications to the bill's equal treatment principles in Section 7. I think these principles should apply whether the Federal funds are administered by Federal, State or local officials. In paragraph 6, I think it ought to be modified so that participants in voucher-funded cannot sit out part of a social service, even if that is a religious part, because their religious liberty is protected by the choices of a voucher system itself. And the bill ought to authorize officials to use vouchers as appropriate. Finally, I think the bill should state that when a Federal program honors a faith-based organization's Title VII exemption, its freedom to staff on a religious basis, then a State and local government cannot restrict that freedom. Thank you. [The prepared statement of Mr. Carlson-Thies follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.018 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.019 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.020 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.021 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.022 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.023 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.024 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.025 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.026 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.027 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.028 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.029 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.030 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.031 Mr. Souder. Mr. Kuo. STATEMENT OF DAVID KUO Mr. Kuo. Chairman Souder, distinguished members of the subcommittee, thank you for inviting me to testify this afternoon, and thank you for your perseverance in wading through the not-so-easy areas of religion and politics. My perspective on the topics we discuss today is informed by various vantage points on faith, politics and social service I have had during the past 15 years. I was John Ashcroft's policy director in the Senate when we wrote Charitable Choice. I founded and for 3 years built a charitable organization to objectively determine the efficacy and efficiency of social service organizations. And for 2\1/2\ years, I served as special assistant to the President as Deputy Director of the Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives under President George W. Bush. But more than anything, my views are informed by a certain philosophical perspective. I believe in Government's inviolable duty to help the poor. This is not just a political philosophy for me, it is also theology. I believe that Jesus' commands to care for the least among us means that we have to bring to social problems every available resource and every best effort. No country can do that better than America, and no country needs to do it better than America. What seems like a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, a Texas Governor gave one of the great political speeches of this generation in Indianapolis, IN. In it, Governor George W. Bush talked about how the promise of America was a distant dream for too many who were addicted to drugs, dependent on alcohol and trapped in despair. He said that the answer didn't lie in trillions of new Washington dollars spent on big bureaucracy to end poverty as we know it. He also said the answer didn't lie in shrugging our collective shoulders and simply letting the private sector handle it, devoid of new resources. What America needed to do, he said was to embrace and generously fund social service organizations, faith-based and secular, to help hurting Americans. His prescriptions were straightforward. Certain laws, rules and regulations amounted to Government-sanctioned discrimination against faith-based groups. They needed to be changed. Social service groups needed to know that they were welcome to apply for funds. At the same time, he added passionately, it is not enough for conservatives like me to praise charitable efforts. Without more support and resources, both public and private, we are asking charities to make bricks without straw. On that day, he proposed $8 billion per year in new spending and charitable tax incentives and sent the unmistakable message that charity, compassion and care for the poor were to be cornerstones of his domestic policy. A great deal of what he has envisioned has come to pass. There is a White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives and there are coordinating centers in most major Federal agencies. Tens of thousands of people have been educated about how to apply for Government grants and what they can and cannot do with those funds if they receive them. Grants have been given out to scores of different organizations and small pilot projects to assist children of prisoners, mentoring programs and drug addicts. Most importantly, an irreversible message has been sent across the country. Faith-based groups are fully welcome, fully legal and absolutely necessary to America's fight against poverty. Were it not for President Bush's vision, we would not be meeting here today. At the same time, the core funding commitment he made in Indianapolis has not been fulfilled. Four years later, rather than $32 billion in new spending and tax incentives for the poor, we have seen at best a few hundred million. There is a chasm between what was promised and what has been delivered, and it cannot be glossed over by any new White House reports, initiatives, policies, conferences, speeches, pronouncements or purportedly objective data collection intended to make that failure look better. It can only be bridged by the fulfillment of the original promise. That promise must still be fulfilled. The failure to deliver the promised financial support for the poor lies equally on the executive and the legislative branches of Government. The White House could certainly have done more and hopefully will do more to push through needed funding increases to address record American poverty. But at least the White House has tried. From where I sit, I cannot say the same thing about most of Congress. I have been saddened by widespread congressional apathy and the desire for political gamesmanship rather than substantive aid. Why hasn't Congress been the compassionate advocate on behalf of charities and the poor in the midst of an economic crisis, a downturn in charitable giving and a dramatic upturn in social service needs? When the President announced the creation of the Faith- Based office in 2001, he was attacked by some Democratic Members of Congress as trying to destroy the wall of separation between church and State. Still others said he was simply trying to create a Bob Jones University America. Other said he was trying to simply discriminate against racial minorities, women or members of the GLBT community. Even when distinguished Members stood up against this bombast and sided with President Bush, they were threatened by members of their own caucus that their personal campaign funds would be cut, someone else would be supported in a primary against them and that they would have to publicly retract their support. It seemed like the President's bold support of this initiative was seen by many as simply a chance to hurt him and label him as a religious zealot, and the poor were used as pawns in a greater political game of power. At the same time, many members of the President's own party expressed equal parts apathy and antipathy toward this agenda. Money for the poor? Why, it will just get wasted, they said. We just need to cut the funds and let the private sector take over. We don't need more funds, all we really need to do is make sure that we have a huge political fight over religious charities' right to hire and fire based on their own faith. That way, as I have heard time and time again, Republicans will be seen as fighting for religions and Democrats will be seen as fighting against it. It is a good fight to have, I heard time and again, from both Democrats and Republicans. A good fight for partisanship, perhaps, but less good for the poor. Some people have said that this is just the way of modern Washington. We haven't seen the promises fulfilled, because for the White House, for Democrats, for Republicans, for liberal and conservative special interest groups, there is more to be gained by fighting than by solving. I don't believe that this is true. Everything that hasn't yet been accomplished can still be accomplished. Funding for things like CBDG can be returned to their needed levels. The Compassion Capital Fund can receive the $200 million per year that it was promised, rather than the $99.5 million over 4 years that it has received. Tax incentives to aid the poor can be put in place. There is no such thing as too late, because there are always lives that can be helped. Impossible? Hardly. The mere fact that we are meeting together today demonstrates this subcommittee's passion for the poor and willingness to stand up to opposition from those who do not want hearings like this to occur. I would like to make three specific suggestions for moving forward before I close. First, the subcommittee should seek to expand its oversight on the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives. There are important questions that need to be answered about how decisions are made there regarding funding, what relationship that office has in directly controlling the activities of other Federal agencies, as well as examining the veracity of reports claiming that a certain amount of money is going to faith-based groups. These are important matters that need to be examined. Second, I encourage the subcommittee to begin looking at information in different ways. To date, charities have been judged primarily by how well their accountants make it look like all the money is going to serve targeted populations. Why? Because that is how efficient charities are judged and ranked by media like U.S. News and World Report. Unfortunately, this mindset has prevented us from asking a more important question: how well? Efficacy is far more important and relative to gauge than efficiency. We need to begin asking charities and our Government to tangibly measure how well they are doing their jobs, not just how efficiently. Third, do not be distracted by the so-called discrimination issue. The facts are fairly simple. No one can be discriminated against when it comes to receiving services. Faith-based groups have been receiving Federal funds for years and have long ago learned how to deal with the issue on the ground. As one woman told us as we scoured the country looking for examples of groups dogged by religious discrimination issues, ``Honey, if you can't hire someone without asking them their faith, you're a fool.'' Ultimately, I think that codifying the faith-based initiative is a good idea, especially if it allows for easier oversight. But any faith-based initiative success will ultimately be determined by a White House's commitment. I want to close again by thanking you, Chairman Souder, and Representative Cummings, and the subcommittee for continuing to examine the complex issues surrounding the Faith-Based and Community Initiatives. The debates are vigorous, and that is the way it should be. Thank you. Mr. Souder. Thank you. Mr. Polito. STATEMENT OF BOBBY POLITO Mr. Polito. Thank you, Chairman Souder and Congressman Cummings, for inviting me here today. I would like to try to sum up my comments real quickly, as I look at the clock. As an Italian, the dinner bell is a loud one in my family. So I would like us all to get back at a reasonable hour. For the last 3 years, I have been the director of the Faith-Based Office at HHS. And I would like to comment quickly on process, how does it work at a Federal agency, how does it work specifically in a very large Federal agency. I want to come and agree that H.R. 1054 should be enacted for the purposes of the organizations that we are talking about. My key role as the director, my staff's key role under me was to be a beacon of hope in a bureaucracy where groups can go for questions and get real answers. I remember when I was a rescue mission director, and I called HUD, I called HHS, I called everybody to find out what was available for the people that I served, either direct funds from my organization or individual subsidies for the people that I served. And I never got my phone calls answered, I never got an agreement for a meeting down here in this wonderful city. So I think just for that purpose alone, if it was just a place where organizations can make phone calls to, can visit with, somebody in Washington is going to meet with them and help them understand hey, there is funding available for what you do, hey, the things that your drug addicts are struggling through, there are programs in your city that you can apply for for them, and help them get over their dependencies. At our center, we had a game plan. I was a former athlete in a different life, and we talked about it as an inside game and an outside game. Our inside game was to try to change the way the bureaucracy ran, that favored the people that were already there. Funding questions being answered by, well, let's just fund the folks that we have always funded, because we haven't gotten into any trouble lately. And things are going OK. Sort of status quo stuff. So we had our inside game. We had internal barriers report that we showed, some anecdotal information on why groups couldn't get in, what happened when they did get in, were they stripped of their religious character, couldn't they hire, couldn't they do the things that they needed to do. And their understanding of the problem, as we used to say, on the street. So that was our inside game, to work with the 65,000 Federal officers at our department to get them squared away on where we wanted to go with this program. Our outside game was in my opinion more important. Because it opened the Federal doors so that pastors, lay workers, social workers could come into an office, sit down, have a cup of coffee and understand what this initiative was all about, understand what the different program areas we had at HHS, we had 11 program areas and 300 grants programs. So if you were doing it, you probably could get funded out of our department. The problem was that they didn't know, they didn't know where to go, they didn't know when the RFP was coming out, they don't read Federal Registers to get information. So we acted as a beacon. And if we don't have that moving forward, the people, in my opinion, who serve the poor the best, the community folks and the religious folks on the street, I call them street saints, those folks who walk the street at 3 a.m., and pick up people and throw them over their shoulder and have a place for them to go, those folks don't read Federal Registers. And those folks don't have Government offices in Washington to lobby for them. So somebody's got to look out for them. I am afraid that if we don't have this as a practice in our Government that it would be a flash in the pan. Thank you for allowing me to share my thoughts with you today. I would love to answer any questions. Mr. Souder. Thank you. I have a series of questions. I first want to thank each of you for your long-time work in this area. I will try not to call you by your first names, because I have known most of you for so long. Let me start with Mr. Kuo. I take issue with a couple of things in your statement, and I feel compelled to point out in the record that I believe Congress and the White House both share blame, and I believe the White House has some things that are commendable. It is also true that the White House opposed the Compassion Capital Fund, that the House leadership had to jam it down their throats. And I don't know what in the world the White House was doing abandoning something internally when publicly they were speaking the other way. And the historical staff record of the people in the conference from the leadership will show that, and whether the President was being reflected correctly by his people who are doing the negotiating is another question. I am not arguing that the White House Office of Faith-Based Initiatives took that position. I am not even arguing that the President himself took that position. And as you and I both know, and all of you here know, I have multiple former staffers who are in key positions, and this is a very awkward hearing for me, because they are in key positions related to all this kind of stuff. I have tried to kind of not talk about business sometimes in a private way, because my job is oversight. But I have been very disappointed, as have some people inside the White House, including you, with some of what's happened. I think a second thing I want to say on this same part is, were you aware, because I want to establish whether you were aware of this, it is a fact, that the White House specifically asked me to hold back on my bill on the $500 tax credit and additional funding for support of the type Mr. Polito was just talking about, institutional building, that I had Bobby Scott on, Chet Edwards on, Jerry Nadler on and Barney Franks' support, that also had the support of Tom Daschle, and they asked me to hold back my bill because they wanted to go after the public funding part, because it was in effect what would be called Santorum Light, it would have been the tax credit part in the institutional building, but would have not had the direct funding? Were you aware that the White House asked me that? Mr. Kuo. Yes, Mr. Chairman, I was aware. Mr. Souder. And that doesn't mean that they wanted to try to win the public funding part, which is a battle that they have carried on valiantly and fought over. But we lost our moment on the tax part. And the truth is, we wouldn't have had this big debate up here on this panel today and wouldn't have the continuing debates on the public funding part if we would have taken that tax credit part, which I don't know if we will ever get again. Because it was time and tax relief. The reason I raise both of those, it has been very disappointing to me, because we were able to broker two-thirds of the bill. And we also heard today, Mr. Scott said he raised a different question on the vouchers, he didn't raise the legal question on the vouchers, he raised the technical follow- through question on the vouchers. So we have three prongs here they theoretically we could move forth. The question is, I think you were accurate in stating, as we heard some of the opposition to this, the criticisms which I believe are wrong, but let's not spare the administration in some of this, too. I know you said you criticized the administration, but you criticized the Congress more aggressively. I agree benign neglect on the part of the majority Congress is correct. But in fact, we had brokered a compromise that would have moved us substantially, then we could have continued to fight the public funding. But we lost the moment. Mr. Kuo. Mr. Chairman, if I cut back on my commentary on the White House, it is only because I believe that over the past several months I have made my position on the White House's not so benign neglect of this issue, of its political use of this issue. I thought I had made that clear, and I just meant in the interest of time to keep that short. But I agree, Mr. Chairman, with what you said. I was in part of the conversations in which the discussions came forward about how to politically handle the bill. Because what happened ultimately was, this was a political question. There was a political benefit to not having a bill like yours pass, because there was great political benefit to be gained by having issues, by having the religious issues, the hiring issues, the discrimination issues out there so that we could be on the right side of these issues for key constituents. Mr. Souder. And I believe strongly those issues, it is a great debate to have, and I believe it is an important debate. I am on the side of the administration on the debate. But we lost what I felt were the stronger, more winnable parts in the continuing fight that I don't even know if we can sustain after President Bush. That is part of the problem here. We have to have a longer vision than just this Presidency. Now, you also stated in your testimony, and I actually have a couple of questions I want to do, but I wanted to get a couple things on the record here as we are starting. Because I believe part of our problem, and I believe you said it eloquently in your testimony, is that we played a zero sum game with this process. And the zero sum game is a legitimate debate, who can best effectively deliver public services, and can the private sector partly do that. But we argued that we were going to increase the pool of money for the poor. And in fact, all we have done is fight over a relatively frozen pool. Mr. Kuo. A shrinking sum. Mr. Souder. Particularly in inflation adjusted dollars, in that has put those of us in an awkward position who argued this for many years, because we didn't mean it to be a zero sum game, in that we are now into that. And there, Congress deserves at least 50 percent of the blame. I am not saying we don't. Because it is very hard, quite frankly, for some Republicans to argue putting more dollars into what are Democratic districts, and then the Democratic Members opposing the money that was supposed to go to their districts. But if it is no new money, they have no incentive to come on board. And our guys didn't want to give them additional money, and we got into this political logjam that now we are trying to take apart here in this hearing that in fact has put the long term range of this program at risk. Yet a third part of this is, and Mr. Kuo was with this from early on, from Senator Ashcroft's side as I was doing the work on the House side, and has worked on this for years, and the other witnesses here have worked with this for a long time, both at the grassroots level. But was it not your understanding when we started this that a lot of the goal here was to reach the people like Mr. Polito was directly talking about, in that those were predominantly small Black and Hispanic organizations in the neighborhood, as my friend Bob Woodson has said for years, in the zip code, who lived in the zip code. And how in the world did this program turn into a program that was a mix of multiple? Mr. Kuo. A mix of what, sir? Mr. Souder. Of suburban churches going after it, I mean, the faith-based initiative is seen so broadly any more, it is like it is money for faith-based organizations rather than targeted. It was supposed to be specifically targeted as an alternative way to delivering goods to the highest risk population and to getting more dollars there. I first want to confirm that is what you thought the initiative was, and that I know this has been an internal debate in the administration. But those of us who worked for it for years, in fact, when Steve Goldsmith first sat down with Senator Santorum and Joe Pitts and I, way back when he was first committed to then-Governor Bush running for the Presidency, and said, why is this so hard, we predicted what the problem was going to be, and that is that the base we were trying to reach with a program of compassion was not historically Republican, which meant that in the approach we were using was not historically Democrat. Therefore, it was going to be a very difficult sell. I first wanted to establish on the record that you believe that is how the Office started. You were there from the beginning, as was John DeIulio. That was our goal, it was Mike Gerson's original description when he was with Senator Coates, in that how, I first want to establish that is what the thrust of the program was conceived. Mr. Kuo. My understanding of the President's compassion conservative vision as first laid out in the Duty of Hope speech, was that his fundamental approach to poverty was to embrace social service organizations, including faith-based organizations. As a fundamental part of his approach to dealing with the poor, with the addicts, with those needing welfare, needing job training and so forth and so on was to include faith-based groups. Within that was a $200 million per year commitment for the Compassion Capital Fund. The Compassion Capital Fund was to be aimed specifically at small organizations that Bobby talked about, that you just referred to, the ones on the ground, the ones like Bob Woodson has dealt with for decades. That was what it was intended for. It was never intended or designed to go to large institutions that would hold conferences and talk about this some more and fly people across the country and bring them together for roundtable discussions. This was never the idea behind the Compassion Capital Fund. Mr. Souder. I have a concern. I have worked with several Black pastors' groups in my home town who have organized around the way that we originally said, they pulled together multiple churches, they have gone to the Chicago conference, they have gone to other conferences. I have sent multiple members of my staff to the different conferences, and what Mr. Polito described of being a way like we do for small contractors to figure out Federal contracting, quite frankly, neither my staff nor the individuals who went for the conferences can figure it out. Nor can they figure out how to do it. The question is, why? And the questions we heard today about, were there inside deals, is on the street on almost every city in the country. We have done hearings across the country. There is a tremendous frustration among grassroots groups about who gets invited to what, about how decisions are made. I want to ask a couple of technical questions for the record, and I am going to ask one other thing, just so we aren't here all night, that because you all are a fount of information and we aren't allowed to have any White House witnesses. Mr. Towey was willing to come but was told he couldn't come, and others, that we may do a written form of some question and answer to try to draw out a more historic thing here than we have hours to do tonight, both on the legal questions that we heard earlier today, how the offices were structured. Because this will be a good hearing record of the process. But I raise the importance of oversight. You all addressed it. To what degree were the centers in the agency managed directly by the White House, for example, did the White House control the Compassion Capital Fund or did the agencies? Mr. Kuo. I do not think that it is possible to give a blanket answer to that. But I think that if you are going to apply a legal test, preponderance of the evidence would suggest that the bulk of the Compassion Capital Fund was either controlled by the White House Faith-Based Office or was attempted to be controlled by the White House Faith-Based Office. I think Mr. Polito would probably---- Mr. Souder. I am going to ask him the same question. Mr. Kuo. That would be my answer, that the fundamental desire from the moment--there is a history of the office that is important to bring into context here. One is, there is the office that existed from January or February 2001 basically through September 11th. That was when John DeJulio was there, Stanley was there, I was there for part of that time. Then in early 2002, when Jim Towey came on, it was a fundamentally different office. It was run differently, and it was run differently because there were different things at stake. The first stage had been a research phase, to come up with the Unlevel Playing Field report that Stanley wrote. But then when it came to implementation and there were some dollars on the table, it became a different operation. It also became a different operation because the office itself had been essentially demoted. John DeJulio had come on as an intimate of the President. He was an assistant to the President, the proximity of the Faith-Based Office, it was nicely positioned in the Old Executive Office Building. It was sent outside the White House gates to Jackson Place. So when Jim Towey came on, there was a different dynamic that I think is important to understand here. So the desire was, our desire internally was to prove the viability of the office. And one of the best ways to prove the viability of the office is to control, frankly, the only thing that existed out of the President's faith-based initiative promises, which were $10 million, $20 million, $30 million, $40 million in the Compassion Capital Fund. So in 2002, as Mr. Polito will talk about, it was run largely through the Faith-Based Office. There were grantees who were eliminated from the list, for specific reasons. So the answer is yes on that. But there was a huge back and forth fight between HHS and the White House. It was a fairly ugly thing. Mr. Souder. Mr. Polito, would you agree it was a fairly ugly thing, and this is on top of the OMB management? Mr. Polito. Well, David is right, the Compassion Fund was the first thing out of the gate. We were able to establish three new programs in 3 years. The Compassion Fund was first at about $30 million. The Mentoring Children of Prisoners was second at $10 million, I believe, and now brought up to about $50 million. Last, the Access to Recovery program. Everybody was real open to including everybody's view on how new programs should run, how they should look, who should be getting the money, how it should be structured. The Compassion Fund, for example, because of the nature of the largeness of the Federal bureaucracy, even grants go out in large sizes. So we wanted to really get to your question about how do we get to the small, and requiring these big organizations to give a sub-grant out. I believe the testimony earlier by Congressman Green was 1,700, I don't know the exact number off the top of my head. But 1,700 small, little community-based, faith-based, non-faith-based groups got 1,700 small little grants. So that was the agreed-upon way of getting to the small guy. And I think because it wasn't what everybody asked for, it became the focus, at times became the only thing the initiative had to talk about. But I think over time, including this data collection that we have now, we can see that the initiative is larger than the Compassion Fund. More religious groups are getting money out of the Community Health Center grant than the Compassion Fund Grant, for an example. So to label this the President's initiative is the Compassion Fund and that's it and if you didn't get Compassion Fund money you didn't get faith-based money and--we have been trying to dispel that in my whole tenure. If you are a faith-based group and you run a community health center, there is a grant for that, let me help you, show you where the RFP is, let me introduce you to current grantees who can help you with the process. Let me tell you about if there are any conferences coming up. Not ``you need to get into this Compassion Fund.'' So on the new programs, sure, there was a lot of discussion, too much focus on the new programs coming online, not enough focus on the established programs that are there using the faith-based representatives that are already there, Catholic Charities, the Lutheran Social Services, to teach the smaller guys on how to get into this process. So sure, there were times where it wasn't the most fun. Mr. Souder. I want to introduce into the record the Snapshots of Compassion, and also ask you two more questions. 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One, you were asked to collect data on grantmaking. Can you give us some idea of how much time you spent, whether that was useful, how we might look at fixing that. And the second is, do you work to evaluate the planned State and local government cooperation and did you do a report on that, when was it complete, and did you get any good information on that? Mr. Polito. Sure. The data collection, in my opinion, should have always been driven by OMB. They do that well on everything else. And having center directors and interns in our offices looking down sheets and saying faith-based, not faith- based, was insane. And I think there could be a better process. My opinion is it should be a directive from OMB, the way that they direct TANF on how many case loads there are, or community health centers, how many people were served. Community health centers get funded by the amount of people that they serve. So it is not new to the Federal Government to count this kind of stuff. It just was a bizarre way of doing that. The second question? Mr. Souder. State and local, did you have that analysis? Mr. Polito. State and local. We did a report on that. Stanley actually helped us on that, did a great job on helping us on that report. I believe since my departure that report has been printed and can, I'm sure you can obtain a copy of that report through the Secretary or through the mechanisms at the department. The department owns that document, and it was our department's idea for the initiative that's the next new thing that we really need to address, is how do we really get into State and local funding. We counted 80 percent of our funds go out in block grants. So to focus on a $50 million Compassion Fund or even 20 percent discretionary funding, let's look at the 80 percent of block grant funding and see what we can do to influence the process of who gets that money, how that money is disbursed, helping our small, local folks understand that process and point them in those directions, training State and local administrators, TANF officials, for example, on how they could encourage smaller players and faith-based players into that process I think is where this initiative really needs to go next. Mr. Souder. Thank you. I will have a couple more followup. I will yield to Mr. Cummings. Mr. Cummings. This is a very interesting line of questioning. I am trying to figure out, let me break it down another way. Let's say I am an African-American church, have 5,000, 6,000 members, I am not presently in the drug treatment area, but I hear about money available and I come to you. What happens there? I mean, I call there trying to figure out--what would happen? Mr. Polito. I would invite you, if you are from Baltimore, I would either invite you to come down to my office and we could have it out, talk it through, or I could send somebody to Baltimore to do a site visit. We have done that at times. Most of the time, if people are in town, we would meet with them. We pretty much help the organizations decipher what they do and who do they serve. If you can answer those two questions, I can tell you about a grant that's available. What do you do, who do you serve. Mr. Cummings. What about what will I do? Because don't forget, what I have said is, it is a person that they aren't even in it yet. They hear about this money and they know that the money is out there. So they say, well, let me see if I can get some of this flowing to my church, or---- Mr. Polito. I understand what you are saying. Most churches in that capacity, a 5,000 member African-American church does stuff other than church. And a lot of that stuff is fundable at our level. You don't have to create a new program to get funded. That would be my posture with you, what do you do already and who do you serve, do you serve TANF-eligible clients, do you serve single moms, do you serve AIDS victims, who do you serve. Because I want them to show me their experience in doing that, and then I will give them, they will leave with an understanding of how to apply, who to apply to and when to apply. Mr. Cummings. All right, now, let's take it, I want to get to the 1,700 folks, and folks that I think Mr. Souder--I don't know, I am trying to figure out, he talked about smaller. You talked about smaller, you are talking about the 1,700 smaller churches. Now, we have that one church, they are in business, they get a nice grant. And then three smaller churches, in my district there is a church on almost every corner. So they hear about the big church, they want to be like the big church. So then they get together, the four or five other churches and they say, look, we know you just gave the big church some money, how do we get money, because we want to be like the big church. What I am getting to is this subcontracting concept that you just talked about. I had never even heard of that. Explain that to me. Mr. Polito. OK. In the Compassion Fund, it was decided by lots of different folks that we would fund large, what we call intermediaries or go-betweens to then sub-grant out to the small guys. So in a sense, the large church would get the block of the money, but it was mandated that they give away half of it to smaller churches. They would run a competition program that we would approve on how they are going to disburse out that money. Because we didn't think quickly, at least in the first year, we didn't think that those small storefront churches would be successful in applying for a large Federal grant. Mr. Cummings. And who was training those small churches? Mr. Polito. That big church. That's what we paid them to do, to train them, to give them a sub-grant and then eventually help them go get the grant for themselves. Mr. Cummings. And so who would measure their progress? In other words, most Government things, there is some kind of measurement. How was their progress measured? One of the things that I have seen is people who have gotten Federal money go to prison--let me finish--when they didn't do what they were supposed to do with the money. Now, where is the accountability in that formula? Is it the big church? Is it still within the Federal Government? Where is the accountability coming in? Mr. Polito. The program sits under the administration for Children and Families. It sits in a program office, not the White House, not the Secretary's office, so that it could run like all the other programs at ACF. So Wade Horn and his staff have Federal accountability over those programs, and they run those programs the same way they run all the other programs. But they hold first the large group accountable and then the smaller group accountable, because their relationship is with the big group. Mr. Cummings. OK, now, I guess it was Mr. Kuo, when the decisions go down with regard to whether these--it seems that there has been some targeting toward Black churches, is that right, would you agree with that? Mr. Kuo. Explain what you mean. Mr. Cummings. African-American churches, in other words, trying to appeal to African-American churches, that is with these faith-based efforts. Come on, Mr. Kuo, now, please. Mr. Kuo. The answer---- Mr. Cummings. Please, sir, I have been an elected official for a long time. I see what is happening. You know what is happening. Mr. Kuo. Excuse me? Mr. Cummings. Let me tell you. I will tell you what's happening, just in case you don't know. Mr. Kuo. Why don't you let me answer the question first, sir? Mr. Cummings. OK, you acted like you didn't know what I was talking about. Mr. Kuo. No, sir, I know what you are talking about. Mr. Cummings. Oh, all right. Mr. Kuo. What you asked is, the implicit question you are asking is, did the White House hand out money to Black churches to buy votes. That is really what you are asking. The answer is, no. Mr. Cummings. That is not what I was asking. Mr. Kuo. The White House, what we set out to do in the Office, sir, was to try and educate, we tried to do whatever we could given the extraordinarily tight parameters that we had. Because the fact of the matter was, very few people in the West Wing cared a jot or tittle about this initiative. The biggest press this got was when Members of your caucus, Members of the Democratic Party, critics like Americans United for Separation of Church and State, would launch these large attacks against it saying how much was being done, how radical it was, how really crazy it all was. And we would laugh, because in the Office, we know how little was being done. We started a set of conferences around the country, because it was one way that we could go and try and fulfill the President's vision. And the President's vision, as Bobby just talked about, was to try and educate small social service organizations about how to apply for Government funds. Now, we were specifically targeting organizations that served people who were drug addicts, who were alcoholics, who needed job training, who did day care, who did mentoring for children of prisoners. Fortunately, most of the people who do that are people of faith. Because they are the ones who are motivated to do it. Most of the ones who do that well happen to be African-American churches and Hispanic churches. That just happens to be the demographic. This was not done intentionally to reach out to African-American or Hispanic churches. It was done because those are the organizations that serve those populations. Mr. Cummings. Well, did it make, was it a big deal when suddenly an African-American pastor of a large church, just before the election, comes around who used to be a head Democrat, now decides to, he just so happened to get a substantial grant, by the way, so now he decides that he is going to be, have a conversion and become the No. 1 person for the President? Mr. Kuo. Of course that has political appeal. We live in Washington, right? Pure motives are really hard to find. Every politician that I know of does something that they think is right, but they are happy that there are political benefits that happen because of it. Mr. Cummings. So you are saying that is one of the reasons for the program? Mr. Kuo. Was it one of the reasons for the program, was it for political benefit? Mr. Cummings. Yes. Mr. Souder. For the record, he already said that some people used it for political benefit. But that is different than saying why the program was created. Mr. Cummings. I understand. Mr. Kuo. I do not believe, to the core of my being, that this program was created for political benefit. Mr. Cummings. But it turned out to be, to be political benefit? Mr. Kuo. There were political benefits that were derived. Absolutely. Mr. Cummings. And what I was asking you for, what I was asking you is that you said that the White House, it didn't mean a hill of beans, whatever you said, a tick or whatever, what did you say? I had never heard that term. Mr. Kuo. Jot or tittle. Mr. Cummings. Jot or tittle. Mr. Kuo. It is technically in the Bible. Mr. Cummings. Oh, OK. All right. A jot or tittle. Mr. Kuo. King James Version. [Laughter.] Mr. Cummings. King James Version, all right. Amen. [Laughter.] Mr. Kuo. He speaketh correctly. Mr. Cummings. Anyway, what I am asking you is, then that must have meant something to somebody in the White House. You said it turned out that they had political advantage, you get this pastor, Sunday before election, who has never supported a Republican, he jumps and says, I love the President, support him, I've had this conversion. In other words, did you get any brownie points, I guess, in your Office? Mr. Kuo. I left the White House in December 2003. Mr. Cummings. Do you think you would have gotten some? Mr. Kuo. We left the White House in December 2003. I can tell you that the West Wing was more pleased with White House conferences that went out and talked to tens of--or brought in tens of thousands of people than it was with any other single thing that we did. Now, if you go and you look at where those conferences were held, I think you will get some sense of the answer, because a lot of those conferences were held in States like Ohio, Pennsylvania, Missouri, and the ones that were not held in those States were held in places like Boston, because you could hit both Maine and New Hampshire at the same time. [Laughter.] So the answer is, yes, there was a political benefit to be derived. But here is the other fact, which is, every major urban center was targeted with these conferences. It would be really easy, I think all of us want to be able to say, it is all this or it is all that. It is all good or it is all bad. I wrestled for a year and half with whether to say anything at all. I want to be able to say yes or no. I can't. Mr. Cummings. I understand. Is it Polito? Mr. Polito. Correct. Mr. Cummings. Mr. Polito, going back to what you did, what I am confused about, I am trying to figure out, so in today's world, there would be an advantage, you talked about these little organizations, small churches that may not have had the expertise to do certain things, right? You talked about that. And that is one of the reasons why you felt that you all were significant to them. Mr. Polito. Yes. Mr. Cummings. Well, I have a whole lot of organizations in my district that are not faith-based that would love to have an opportunity to get involved in some of these things. Do we have comparable programs for them? In other words, if I called you and I said, look, I am not a faith-based guy, I am an atheist, say somebody called and said, I am an atheist. But I want to do some drug counseling. What would you do then? Mr. Polito. I would honestly, sir, ask the same two questions that I ask the pastor: who do you serve and what do you do. And if you can answer those two questions, I can direct you to the Federal grant at HHS that does that. I could tell you the day and time it comes out that you have to apply to it, I could tell you the three conferences around the country that those bureaucratic career staff run those conferences to get people to come so they can learn. The problem with the atheist or the church, if they are not a player in Washington, if they do not have a Government relations office here, or if they do not read the Federal Register every day, they do not know that stuff. And the Federal Government has not been very good about announcing that stuff. So that was the value that I saw in my office, was to be a place where somebody, anybody could walk in and say, this is who I serve, this is what I do, is there any assistance for a group like that in this bureaucracy, and I would be able to answer that question for them. Mr. Cummings. And so would that person, the person who was a faith-based organization, with the faith-based organization, they would have to some degree, some advantage I guess, because there is supposedly some money set aside, is that supposed to be? Mr. Polito. No. That is the big mystery, that there has never been any money set aside---- Mr. Cummings. And that is the interesting thing, because that is what people think. Mr. Polito. Right. Mr. Cummings. That is what people think. The question becomes, who put that out there? Mr. Polito. I don't know. Mr. Cummings. Because let me tell you something. Let me tell you. Everywhere I go, people say, gee, that was really nice of the President to put all that extra money out there for faith-based. I am assuming that is not just falling from the sky. Mr. Kuo. May I respond, sir? Mr. Cummings. Yes. Mr. Kuo. The answer is, the White House has put that out there. Now, earlier, I believe it was Representative Owens who said, there's $2 billion or $3 billion now going to faith-based groups. Earlier, Representative Green said that's a 20 percent increase from year over year. The problem is, the data on which that is based would not stand up to any scrutiny. The reason that we tasked Bobby Polito and the other centers to come up with data was to cover ourselves, because the President's promise of $8 billion a year in new spending and tax incentives had not come through and because we wanted to have a figure that was out there. Now, the reason that the figure is out there now is because no one had ever asked it before. We still do not know how accurate those figures are. Those figures are not very accurate. But the point is that in talking to any number of social scientists, any number of people who have looked at the field of faith-based initiatives the last 20 years, they say, well, probably the $2 billion or $3 billion figure that they came up with this year, that is probably lower than it was 10 years ago or 15 years ago, simply because the pot of money is smaller. Mr. Souder. Let me add something to that. When I was Republican staff director of the Children and Family Committee years ago, in the early 1980's, we had a staffer, Dr. Jim Gimple, who now teaches at the University of Maryland, who went through the Hobbes Report. Everybody acts like this stuff is new. But Hobbes had looked at this under Reagan, when he was Governor of California, and when he came to Washington, he looked at the private sector groups. They put out 100 groups that were supposedly free of Government that were doing charitable work, mostly faith-based. But it is faith-based and community organizations, Congresswoman Watts had asked the question earlier, why is community in there. Well, that is why. It is a Compassion Capital Fund for faith-based and community-based organizations. It isn't just faith-based. But when he went through, he found that 33 percent of the people in Hobbes' report got more than half the funding from Government sources, Federal and State. Even back in the early 1980's. So while there are wrinkles to today, there has been so much political spinning it is hard to get down here and figure out how to do a bill, how to sustain this. Because it has actually been part of the U.S. Government for a long time. Yes, we have a battle over one sub-part of should churches that only hire inside their faith be part of this program. But that is different than whether there should be a program---- Mr. Cummings. Yes. Mr. Souder [continuing]. And how it is set up and how we reach minority groups that are too small. And I could add one more thing. One of my frustrations, and I want to make sure before we close this panel that Dr. Carlson-Thies can respond to this, about at the State and local level and the Federal level, we do this in other categories. In SBA, when I was a graduate student, through SCORE and though a program through graduate business schools, we went out, when people would apply to Small Business Administration for loans, we as graduate students would go out and do an analysis. The SCORE centers are retired executives who go out and do analyses. We have small business centers in the urban areas where they will share a phone, where they will have the information books with which to go and help small businesses seek grants, that when we do defense contracting, in my area we have set this up for defense contractors, because it is hard to figure out defense contracting. Why has there not been a sub-structure of setting up for social service agencies pooled centers, like incubation centers, where there is information, where it is free, it does not depend on who you know, it is public, it is there, anybody can have access to it. Because right now, when we were doing these field hearings, up until our second to last one in Los Angeles, we didn't even discover the main intermediary organizations that you were working through, the big one in Philadelphia, the Hispanic group there. And there was one in Colorado. It took us a year and a half with professional staff, with me knowing the subject for 20 years, to figure out the pattern. Now, how in the world is somebody on the street going to figure out this pattern unless there is a substructure that is set up that is gradual? Yes, we do not have enough money to do it rapidly. But a substructure that is set up much like we do other categories of Government to encourage, I mean, that's how we had the $1,000 toilets and the $500 hammers, because only a few people who were traditionally bidding did it. Unless you can get more people bidding to do drug treatment, unless you can get more people who are bidding to do juvenile delinquency, it is just like Reverend Rivers says, you can tell who is getting it, because they come in, into the urban center, and leave at 5:30. Because if you only have one or two people bidding, then you are not going to have this diversity. It doesn't mean that you are going to get the money. But what Mr. Polito is saying is, we need more basically bidders. The more bidders we get, the better services we will get, because you will have less overhead and less corruption. Mr. Cummings. I've got you. Mr. Kuo. Mr. Chairman, if I might? Mr. Cummings. Go ahead, please. Mr. Kuo. If I might also add, there is a need for more bidders, but there is the objective need for a significant influx of funds. Because the core argument that Governor Bush made was that this conservatism was not going to be the leave us alone coalition, we don't need a social safety net, it was not going to be the Government can solve it all. It was going to say, we need more money, but we need it to go to the best groups. Again, this 1,700 group figure, the amount of money these 1,700 groups got, what, $5,000, $10,000? We are not talking about very large sums of money here. We have very tiny sums of money. For political purposes, it sounds great for the White House to have $3 billion out there, 1,700 groups out there, it sounds good, it looks like all of this stuff is being done. And the sad part about it is that everybody who works in the Faith- Based Office is sad about it. The Faith-Based office has done an extraordinary job working against the White House. Mr. Souder. Dr. Carlton-Thies has something to say about it. Mr. Cummings. Please. Mr. Carlton-Thies. If I may just say one or two things. I believe that long before the centers and the White House started counting the number of dollars, in their inaccurate way, there was this rumor around about money floating out there. I think it is partly because, when you start talking about faith-based groups have been excluded, now there is going to be an effort to include faith-based and also community groups, then everybody says, well, what does that mean. Well, everybody thinks that must mean, you create a budget for them, to include them. But instead, this was an effort to make sure that in existing programs they would have a fair shake. But that doesn't sound very interesting to very many people. So I continually got asked by reporters about the $80 million or $50 billion or whatever that supposedly was out there. So that rumor has been around for a long time. It is because of a certain conception of what this is all about, that it is targeted money for religion, that I think is inaccurate. When it comes to counting, one of the reasons why it has been difficult, I think, is because early on, when we talked, the Faith-Based Office talked with OMB about getting some statistics, we realized that the Government does not ask organizations if they are faith-based or not. So we thought, one thing we could do is try to devise some definition, because everybody wants to know how much money goes to faith-based organizations. But any definition that anybody talked about was so legally problematic. That is to say, there was a worry on the part of OMB and I think the White House and certainly the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives, that if grant managers could identify the groups that were faith-based who were applying, they would either steer money toward them if they were favorable or steer it away if they were against them, and that would not be a good thing for the competitive process. So an effort to draw up a definition of faith-based that could be used to gather statistics was turned down in 2001. So the consequence is that interns sit around and look at the names of organizations and say, well, this one must be religious, this one isn't. And they are bogus numbers. But it is partly for Constitutional reasons, that is to say that the Government ought not to be going out there and selecting out faith-based groups to give them money. So we do not know if they are faith-based or not in any reliable way. Mr. Cummings. So therefore, making statements that we have given X amount of dollars to faith-based organizations sounds, just based on what you just said, it has to be inaccurate, because basically what you have said is it is impossible to count. Mr. Carlson-Thies. I would say it is not probably a proper question to ask in any case. Because if the faith-based applicant is a great competitor, they ought to get the money, and if they are not, they should not. Mr. Cummings. But my point is a much higher point than what you just made. What I am saying is that there is this perception out there, numbers have been thrown out, this is the first time I have ever heard of the 1,700. You could come in here and say, look, we have serviced 10,000. And if there was no way to even know that they were faith-based organizations, what my point is, how could you even make the assertion? That's all. Mr. Carlson-Thies. Although I think the 1,700 applied to the mini-grants that have been given to small organizations. Mr. Polito. We could count that. We could count that. We can count how many mini-grants went out. That is not hard to count. Mr. Cummings. What do these people do with $5,000? I'm sorry? Mr. Polito. These are small grants for capacity building, buy a computer, get some training so that you could figure out the grant system, improve your management structures. These were not operating grants, by and large, to provide services. These were to buildup the capacity of the organization. Mr. Cummings. So these were not operating grants. Some people went out and bought some computers. Mr. Polito. They increased their capacity to be able to offer services. Mr. Cummings. Say that again? Mr. Polito. They increased their capacity to be able to offer services. They could now better compete for private funds, Government funds, they could run their programs according to Federal standards because they had better accounting, things like that. Mr. Souder. One of the problems you have with a lot of street organizations is little churches and little community organizations, unlike big suburban churches, often don't have CPAs there, they do not have attorneys there, they don't even know what books are there. Part of it is just to do capacity building. Mr. Cummings. Mr. Souder didn't know this, Mr. Souder, my mother pastored a church that started off with seven people. So I know about small churches. [Laughter.] Mr. Souder. My church had 100 in it, and I thought I was a big church. Mr. Cummings. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Souder. Ms. Foxx, do you have any questions for this panel? Ms. Foxx. No, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Souder. I want to thank particularly Mr. Kuo, if your wife was watching, she might have had the baby just watching us question you. But I know she's overdue and I appreciate your-- -- Mr. Kuo. I kept the phone on. [Laughter.] Mr. Souder. Thank each of you. We will be doing some followup written questions and probably verbal questions. This has been a fascinating discussion, a very challenging question as we try to move ahead with this and make sure that the whole concept has legs. Thank you all for your years of service in this. We will go to the third panel. Thank you all for your patience. If you will all please stand and raise your right hands. [Witnesses sworn.] Mr. Souder. Let the record show that each of the witnesses responded in the affirmative. Once again, I appreciate your patience, and we are going to start with Mr. Gregg Petersmeyer, vice chairman, Board of Trustees, at America's Promise, and also served on the senior White House staff under George H.W. Bush, Bush 41, and was the founding person of the original Points of Light Office. Thank you for your years of leadership in public and community service. STATEMENTS OF GREGG PETERSMEYER, VICE CHAIRMAN, BOARD OF TRUSTEES, AMERICA'S PROMISE; BOB WOODSON, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL CENTER FOR NEIGHBORHOOD ENTERPRISE; DENNIS GRIFFITH, DIRECTOR, TEEN CHALLENGE IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA; RABBI DAVID SAPERSTEIN, DIRECTOR, RELIGIOUS ACTION CENTER OF REFORM JUDAISM; AND REVEREND C. WELTON GADDY, PRESIDENT, INTERFAITH ALLIANCE STATEMENT OF GREGG PETERSMEYER Mr. Petersmeyer. Thank you, Congressman. Thank you very much for inviting me to testify. My remarks and experience relate to the value of a permanent White House office on community initiatives, not in any way limited to faith-based initiatives. I look forward to responding to your questions, but first I would like to offer a brief opening statement framing two issues that I believe are relevant to your consideration of a permanent White House office. First, if the current President and his two immediate predecessors are guides, it is safe to say that the future Presidents will bring their own perspectives to this work. However, I believe we can frame useful principles that might underpin a permanent White House office focused on community initiative. Second, with respect to Presidential leadership in this area, I believe it is useful to think about the President more in his role as national leader than as Federal leader. By that, I mean primarily as a leader of the Nation rather than as Chief Executive of the Federal Government. When I came to Washington to join the White House staff in January 1989, I had known the President for almost 20 years and had every reason to believe that he shared several fundamental beliefs with me. One was that America is a Nation of communities. And if America is to be a great Nation, it has no choice but to be a Nation of great communities. A second belief was that within the tens of thousands of communities that make up America, very, very serious challenges exist. Last, we believe that while the ability to overcome these challenges far exceeds the capacity of Government alone, and even Government in combination with market forces, it does not exceed our national capacity, the potential energy and talent of millions upon millions of Americans of all ages, acting purposefully both as individuals and as leaders and members of organizations in every community across America. This speaks more about what kind of Nation we are and more about the quality of the American civilization than about what kind of government we have. Following his inauguration in January 1989, the only two structural changes President Bush made in the organization of the White House were to establish a White House office to strengthen the President's leadership of the civic engagement of Americans in the Nation's problemsolving, and to commission an assistant to lead that work. The objective of that new office, and my work as that assistant to the President, was to increase the volume and effectiveness of the work of citizens in helping to solve serious social problems in the tens of thousands of communities that exist across America. The actual strategy that the first Bush White House used was a classic strategy of a movement. The focus was the public beyond Washington, not office holders within the Federal Government. The strategy had five parts. First, changing attitudes in ways that would call every American to engage in helping to solve our most critical social problems and that would convince all Americans that a life which includes serving others is meaningful, adventurous and successful. Second, identifying what works and bringing that news to places everywhere. Third, discovering, encouraging and developing leaders from all walks of life who could lead by example and lead others forward. Fourth, reducing volunteer liability so that one of the key fears of engaging in voluntary activities would not have a deterrent effect on people acting on the call they heard to help others. And finally, building supporting infrastructure within every community to link people who care and their institutions to people in need. To carry out this strategy, new or reformed institutions were necessary. As you can see in my prepared statement on exhibit A, we created four institutions during that 4-year period: The White House Office of National Service in 1989; the Points of Light Foundation in 1990; the Commission on National and Community Service in 1991; and the National Center for Community Risk Management and Insurance in 1992. The four institutions were unified by a common vision, but had individual missions and distinct strategies and programs that together worked to achieve that shared vision. If the current President and his two immediate predecessors are guides, I think it is safe to assume that, as I said, they will bring their own perspectives to this work. I believe, however, that the beliefs which guided the establishment of the first White House Office on National Service and the principles which comprised the movement-based strategy we developed should be included among the underpinning principles of future initiatives. I believe a permanent White House Office should reflect the fact that the vast majority of Americans support the best contributions of each of the last three Presidents of the United States and the Congress in this area. However, most important of all, in considering a permanent White House office, I would argue, is that the President has two important domestic roles to help the Nation achieve key objectives. One role is to be the Chief Executive of the Federal Government. The other is to be the leader of the Nation. The establishment of this office would help the President fulfill this second role. Rather than being focused on the capacity of the Federal Government to create programs to assist communities, former President Bush's work in this area was focused on the capacity of individuals and organizations across the Nation to create and advance their own community-based solutions. That is what I mean by the President acting more in his capacity as the leader of the Nation, rather than as leader of the Federal Government. It was about calling everyone to think differently about themselves and one another, about making room for people to step forward, about leading one another by example, about recognizing that every problem is being solved somewhere, about honoring people in the application of their personal gifts for the benefit of others. It is part of why we used the Point of Light metaphor and instituted the first daily recognition program by a President in American history. Far from preaching to people about what they should do, which of course nobody likes or responds well to, this tactic sought to influence by example, to encourage everyday Americans to reveal to one another what is possible by the evidence of their own experience. This was the strategy because it is the only way to really build the volume of people working, to discovering and releasing the human energy required to actually solve some of the most pressing challenges facing tens of thousands of communities. At the very time when there was ever-increasing focus on credentialism and the need for more professionals, ours was a strategy that called for far more amateurs to step forward and help. There is simply no other way for us as a Nation or as a people to reach the volume of community engagement that is necessary to overcome our challenges. I believe that the power of culture has far more influence than that of politics on the behavior of individuals in communities. Every President can and should play the indispensable role of helping the culture define one of the most powerful ideas there is; namely, what it means to live a successful life. It will always be all the more powerful if that definition is framed by the President to include serving others, and if the President calls relentlessly on all people, wherever they live, to serve others to the best of their ability. That is why in the very early days of the former President's Presidency, I drafted for him a sentence that by President Bush's own admission he publicly stated more than any other during his Presidency; namely this: ``From now on in America, any definition of a successful life must include serving others.'' I would close by offering a final comment. At a time of deep partisanship in this city, with no change in sight, community initiatives is a dimension of American life that could hold the greatest promise for bringing us together. I know that the American people who live in the tens of thousands of communities of this country believe we can all do much better as a Nation and as a people in working together in our communities. I look forward to responding to your questions. [The prepared statement of Mr. Petersmeyer follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.270 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.271 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.272 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.273 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.274 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.275 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.276 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.277 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.278 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.279 Mr. Souder. Thank you. Our next witness is Mr. Bob Woodson, president of the National Center for Neighborhood Enterprise. I want to make a brief statement about him at this point, because it illustrates several things. When I first came to Washington with the Children and Family Committee and heard about some of his work, and he treated me with moderate disdain and basically said, you are not going to be another one of these guys who comes in here and pronounces on the problems of our urban centers and does not look for the good stories. You need to go out and see the success stories. I said, OK, introduce me. And I think the particular word was, don't be another White guy who sits on his duff pronouncing what's going on in our urban centers. [Laughter.] The challenge there, there are a couple of interesting things about that. That was 1985, nearly 20 years ago, meaning this stuff is not brand new, this debate, and that you have been working with it a long time. Second, even as Mr. Petersmeyer came in, this was before the Points of Light. In effect, you didn't tell Points of Light, he said, go find the Points of Light and build that. And as we look at how we are going to continue this and work through it, I first wanted to pay tribute to you and also illustrate in several ways that what we are debating today, as we heard from the first witnesses and we are about to hear again, this is kind of old news. What we are doing is packaging it in new forms. STATEMENT OF BOD WOODSON Mr. Woodson. Thank you, Congressman. Let me also say that you are a breath of fresh air in this Congress, one of the few people over here that puts principles above party and ideals above ideology. I want to applaud you for that, and I am honored to have an opportunity to present my testimony. The National Center for Neighborhood Enterprise, which I founded 23 years ago, we have served about and trained about 2,000 grassroots leaders in 39 States, dating back to 1981. We are deeply supportive of the President's faith-based initiative. You know that in the history of it, in 1994, the 104th Congress convened and asked the National Center to bring the views and opinions of grassroots leaders to the table. It was based upon this that the Community Renewal Act was signed into law by President Clinton. In June 1995, the Texas Teen Challenge chapter was attacked by the State regulators under then-Governor Bush. We were able to reach the Governor with our concerns, and as a consequence, he convened a task force to look at barriers to faith-based organizations. Within 6 months, he signed into law a rule that exempted the 200 faith-based drug and alcohol treatment programs in the State of Texas from State law. None of those groups received a dime of State money. But the State was still trying to regulate them out of business because they didn't have trained professionals as drug counselors, they were using ex-drug addicts as counselors, and they were, as one evaluator from the State said, what you're doing is better than anybody than I have seen, but you're doing it the wrong way. [Laughter.] So the deal that was cut then is that the Teen Challenge and the other groups would not compete for State funds, so they were not interested in the money, they just wanted government off their backs. So we offered this advice later on to then- candidate Bush, and as a consequence, we were there at the beginning of the Faith-Based Office. But as someone we were, however, most disappointed in, the thrust of the Office when they emphasized grants. I would cringe every time I would hear the President speak of the faith-based initiatives as an attempt to get Government money directly into faith-based organizations. This was not the reason that we came to the table. What we wanted Government to do was use the bully pulpit to end the discrimination that not only Government has toward faith-based groups but also corporations. I have spoken to about 1,000 heads of foundations and corporate giving officers in this country. When you ask them how many contribute a dime to faith- based groups, about 20 percent of them will raise their hands. And when you ask the others, well, why don't you contribute, they say, because of separation of Church and State. I say, you're not the State, you're a private entity. But that's how pervasive the discrimination is in the marketplace against supporting things of faith. So we hoped that the President would use the bully pulpit to go and speak to some of these corporate leaders and say to them, you should support faith-based groups. But let me give you some idea of what is missing in this whole dialog. Many of the groups, as I said, we support, want the discrimination against these groups. And Mr. Cummings, you know, as a veteran of the Civil Rights movement, as I am, that one of the ways that we discriminate is develop surrogate ways of discriminating, like a poll tax or literacy tax to prevent people from coming to the polls. Well, the same moral equivalent exists in many of the cities. For instance, in the whole issue, we believe that what this administration should support are tax credits, as Mr. Souder said. We were appalled that the administration did not support it, because that is what our groups want, tax credits to empower individual givers to give to people in those communities. Seventy percent of all American taxpayers have a tax liability of between $300 and $500. Low-income people give a higher proportion of their income to charity than rich people. That means that if you had tax credits, people could give directly without any church-State issues. The second point we emphasize was vouchers, like food stamps or the G.I. Bill of Rights, where the individual is empowered to select a provider, rather than the Government selecting the provider and funding it. We think the provider ought to be selected by the people suffering the problem. The customer should select the provider, not some Government or entity selecting it. But what has happened, and I just want to rattle off a few of these barriers. Food stamps. A lot of our groups don't want money, but individuals receive food stamps. Right now, under this administration, many of our groups, like Teen Challenge and others in States, have been told that because they are not sanctioned or licensed by the State, they are prohibited from continuing to receive food stamps. We are continuing to try to get clarity on that, and that makes a big difference. Another is one of the Government programs forbids the grant recipients from hiring ex-offenders who are coming out of prison. Now, on the one hand, the Government is saying to the business community, we want you to hire ex-offenders, but yet you can't hire them on Government money. So that's a barrier. The third barrier has to do with giving the choice to the drug addict and the offender. For instance, under the old administration, it is interesting, ironically, under the Clinton administration's policies, if a person came to the door of a faith-based group and said, I am an alcoholic, and I want help, and they said, well, if you want to accept help here, you've got to take the bed and the Bible. Under the old policies, that person would be given another option, saying, you can go down the street to the secular program, and that was acceptable. This administration, through Executive order, changed that to say that if a person comes to the door and says, I want the bed but not the Bible, you must offer it. And this has had a crippling effect. The other barrier is on access to recovery, they required any organizations that received access to recovery voucher, has to be licensed by the State and have certified people. This is a big barrier, and I have to take issue with Congressman Cummings, who assumes that certification is the same as qualification when it comes to treatment of people. The very fact that there are 55 public agencies that hire exclusively people with masters degrees to take care of children are facing court-ordered receivership because of incompetence. There are studies that I point to in my testimony of some of the initiatives that were developed by well-trained people, for instance, a 5-year effort to discourage kids from taking drugs that was developed by NIH's behavioral scientists, all Ph.Ds. Well, a study last year revealed that the children that were viewing these ads on television had a higher incidence of drug and alcohol abuse as a consequence. I am on the NIDA board, I can send you that study that NIDA has produced. So it seems to me that what the Faith-Based Office, if it is to truly serve the people, it should really do something about these barriers. Let me just offer some recommendations. The first is the White House Office should act as an ombudsman for faith-based and community organizations around the country, and play an active role in solving and resolving some of these regulatory barriers that prevents them from participating. Second, we should de-emphasize direct funding that gets you all mired into hiring issues and go back to the original effort of emphasizing vouchers, tax credits. The third was pass charitable tax credits legislation. That is most important. And the fourth, I suggested the subcommittee could set up an e-mail address to field complaints from groups around the Nation about the kinds of barriers that they face so that we can really move and empower our organizations. Some of these groups, Mr. Cummings, that we support in your district, in Southwestern High School, we have just started an initiative in Baltimore that has put ex-offenders in there as hall monitors under a training program. These are faith-based people, and as a consequence, Southwestern High School is turning around. I testified before your city council, Sheila Dixon's committee last week. And we are going back to expand that effort in other Baltimore schools. Because we are judged by the amount of change we produced. Outcome oriented. And so I would like to share some of that with you and discuss that with you at another time, Mr. Cummings. Thank you for your time. [The prepared statement of Mr. Woodson follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.280 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.281 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.282 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.283 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.284 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.285 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.286 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.287 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.288 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.289 Mr. Souder. Thank you. Our next witness is Mr. Dennis Griffith, director of Teen Challenge in southern California. He has been accompanied here today and I would like to recognize them, by Jerry Nance, president and CEO of Teen Challenge of Florida-Georgia; Mike Hodges, senior executive director of Teen Challenge, National Pacific Northwest; Randy Rowe, executive director, Teen Challenge Northern California-Nevada; Rodney Hart, president, Teen Challenge New England; Rev. Manuel Barega, executive director, Teen Challenge Maryland; and Phil Cookes, director of Los Angeles County Teen Challenge. We welcome the members of your organization here at our hearing to watch the lovely business of Congress conducting debates. But it is very informative, and hopefully they have learned a lot as well. Thank you for your willingness to testify. STATEMENT OF DENNIS GRIFFITH Mr. Griffith. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and distinguished members of the subcommittee. As executive director of Teen Challenge of southern California, I welcome this opportunity to discuss President George W. Bush's Faith-Based and Community Initiative and its effect on faith-based substance abuse recovery programs like Teen Challenge. Teen Challenge supports and greatly appreciates this administration's Faith-Based Initiative, but we continue to see barriers to faith-based programs such as ours. Congressman Green's legislative proposal affords an opportunity to discuss the role of the Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives. Let me start by saying that various elements of the Faith- Based Initiative have been very helpful to Teen Challenge. President Bush, in fact, has publicly recognized Teen Challenge on numerous occasions, helping to raise the visibility of the organization. Some of the Teen Challenge chapter leaders have attended conferences organized by the White House Office and have benefited from those conferences. In addition, the White House Office and some of the agency offices have provided useful introductions and networking opportunities between Teen Challenge and various departments of the Government. We have also benefited by being involved in a meaningful dialog concerning the President's access to recovery initiative with SAMHSA and the State of California and others. The mission of Teen Challenge is to provide youth, adults and family with an effective and comprehensive faith-based solution to drug and alcohol addiction. Our objectives are to enable individuals to find freedom from addictive behavior and to become socially and emotionally healthy, physically well and spiritually alive. Through committed staff and effective programs, Teen Challenge strives to produce graduates who function responsibly and productively in society and who have healthy relationships in the workplace, family, church and community. Since its founding in 1958, our faith-based network has grown into the largest of its kind in the world. Teen Challenge now operates 185 centers here in the United States, and an additional 370 in 85 countries around the world. Teen Challenge has a well established track record and is recognized as one of the largest and most effective faith-based substance abuse prevention and recovery programs in the country. More than 2,000 men and women graduate annually from our 1-year residential recovery programs just here in the United States. Anywhere from 20 percent to as much as 50 percent of the participants in the 1-year residential recovery program have been assigned to us by the courts. The fact that so many judges, probation and parole officers make referrals to Teen Challenge is just one indication of the recognized effectiveness of the Teen Challenge program. Throughout our history, Teen Challenge has contended that the fundamental reason for our success in helping people with life-controlling problems through our residential program, typically drug addiction, is because these individuals have had a spiritual transformation experience as an act of God's grace. This perspective produces a sense of dignity, self-worth, hope, and personal empowerment. This is the foundation and core of our residential program. Typically 1 year in length, it offers an environment of therapeutic support and spiritual formation. The program, into which entry has always been voluntary, requires discipline, responsible decisionmaking and accountability. Students participate in daily devotions, chapel, church services and outreach activities. These are essential elements for what we do and why we have been so successful. In addition, throughout the 1-year experience, students are equipped with functional tools, including job skills and vocational-technical training to assist them in re-entering society as productive and healthy people. As I mentioned, entrance into these programs is always voluntary, and each prospective student clearly understands the program's distinctiveness. Teen Challenge fully understands and recognizes that most of our residential programs will not be eligible for direct Government support. However, it is our understanding that the concept of indirect funding would allow individuals who qualify for certain entitlements, such as food stamps or access to recovery vouchers, to use these benefits in the institution of their choice. However, faith-based organizations like Teen Challenge are prevented from fully participating in these voucher programs because they cannot meet the State licensing or certification criteria. At present, only 5 percent of the 185 Teen Challenge centers are licensed by the State. The methods and strategies employed by Teen Challenge differ considerably from those of traditional clinical programs. As a result, Teen Challenge chapters, although effective, cannot meet licensing standards that only recognize traditional clinical programs. Because the vast majority of our chapters are not licensed, they face difficulties in qualifying for federally supported voucher programs. In addition, because these programs cannot obtain a license, they are often not recognized as a drug and alcohol program by Federal and State agencies. For example, the lack of recognition affects the ability of our program's participants to access even indirect benefits such as food stamps. For many years, Teen Challenge chapters in Texas and Massachusetts had been able to receive food stamps for their qualified participants. Recently, in Texas and Massachusetts, State agencies told Teen Challenge that the Federal Department of Agriculture required the licensing of all programs for eligibility purposes. Those Teen Challenge programs in Texas and Massachusetts were taken off the eligibility rolls to receive food stamps. In addition, licensing requirements and the resulting lack of recognition of programs like Teen Challenge have prevented us from fully participating in the access to recovery initiative. Clearly, certification standards appropriate for clinical or traditional treatment programs are not wholly adequate for their faith-based counterparts. A new category of residential recovery support programs would take into account the mission and method of faith-based recovery programs and would provide Teen Challenge equal access to recovery resources available to traditional treatment programs. Most importantly, it would offer those in need of addiction relief an equal choice between traditional approaches and faith-based recovery programs. In conclusion, I want to stress that we support the President's Faith-Based Initiative and desire that efforts related to the Initiative continue. Significant progress can still be made to help level the playing field and remove barriers. As you will be able to see, on an attached DVD, I enclosed a DVD with my written testimony, as you can see on the attached DVD, our country's leadership has been involved in faith-based programs for many years. These efforts should be a permanent part of our Government's effort. I applaud all the President's efforts to help those who hurt, even those who have made mistakes in life concerning drugs and alcohol. Each time the President mentions this topic, he lifts the spirits of recovering drug addicts and alcoholics across America, giving them hope and a sense of dignity and for that, I am eternally grateful. I also want to express my appreciation to Director Charles Curry of SAMHSA and John Walters with ONDCP and the members of the California Access to Recovery effort who have aided and welcomed faith-based organizations. Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee, thank you for this opportunity to appear before you today, and I would be happy to answer any questions at a later time. [The prepared statement of Mr. Griffith follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.290 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.291 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.292 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.293 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.294 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.295 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.296 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.297 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.298 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.299 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.300 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.301 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.302 Mr. Souder. Thank you. Our next witness is Rabbi David Saperstein, director, Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism. Thank you for your patience in this long hearing today and for sticking around, and we look forward to your testimony. STATEMENT OF RABBI DAVID SAPERSTEIN Rabbi Saperstein. Thank you for your invitation and your attention to this important issue. I am deeply honored to be here with such a distinguished panel. I want to recognize my superb staff person, Eric Gold, who works on these issues, and my young son, Ari, who has attentively been listening to hours of testimony here. Mr. Chairman, we urge you not to pass at this time the legislation which would codify the President's Faith-Based Initiative through the formal creation of a permanent White House Office on Faith-Based and Community Initiatives. Now, the creation of an office designed and dedicated to helping Government find appropriate ways to partner with religious organizations to deliver social services resonates powerfully with our religious sensibilities. Thus, it is not for this reason we object to it but because of the actual history that you have discussed at length today and what the office does. So long as the centerpiece of this office is to get money directly to houses of worship, an endorsement of the office on the grounds that it does other good things would constitute endorsement of a Trojan horse, attractive on the outside, but support for a structure that will facilitate programs that violate the establishment clause, undercut good social services programs and infringe on the rights of beneficiaries. To be perfectly clear, we agree wholeheartedly with the President's oft-cited remark that Government cannot always put hope in people's heart the way that religion can, therefore it is not surprising that almost all of our Reform Jewish synagogues across America have wonderful social service programs. However, we strongly oppose the central component of the Faith-Based Initiative that would involve direct Government funding of our synagogues; indeed, of any of America's pervasively sectarian institutions. Insofar as this office seeks to codify this so-called charitable choice into law, it is bad for religion, bad public policy, unconstitutional and socially divisive. Other than that, we have no objections. [Laughter.] It is bad policy first because, with Government money comes Government rules, regulations, audits, monitoring, interference and control. Second, with Government money comes compromises in the religious mission of churches, synagogues and mosques in America. Reliance on Government funding creates the temptation to skew your program to attract the money and to mute the prophetic obligation of calling the Government to account. Further, when there are limits placed on religious activity in Government-funded programs as the Constitution demands, those churches committed to including such activities as essential to their programs--I just heard Dennis Griffith speak about the spiritual enhancement that is at the core of what they are about. Those churches either must compromise their mission in order to obtain the money or ignore the rules with potentially dire consequences to the beneficiaries of services and to the churches. Third, by opening up our Nation's limited funding for social services to potentially scores of thousands of houses of worship, let me remind you, there are 300,000 houses of worship in America. Let's assume only a small number, but some scores of thousands of them compete for this limited, shrinking pot that you discussed before. The result is going to be countless millions of dollars will be diverted and thus weaken what are widely regarded as the finest, most effective social service providers today, the superb, although albeit overwhelmed religiously affiliated social service providers, such as Catholic Charities, Jewish Federations, Lutheran Social Services, all of which abide by the vast majority of regulations applicable to other charities. Without a national commitment to substantial increases in funding, there is no guarantee that the Faith-Based Initiative will see one more needy person being helped. Fourth, Charitable Choice will lead to increased social divisiveness in America as different churches compete for Government money and endorsement. The prospect of intense competition for limited funding, the politicizing of church affairs to obtain funds, the impact on those made to feel that they are outsiders when they fail to obtain funds, all this sectarian competitiveness leads to the very kind of sectarian divisiveness that has plagued so many other nations and which we have been spared because of the separation of church and State. Fifth, such funding violates the religious rights of taxpayers. As Jefferson said, to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves is sinful and tyrannical. This helps explain why so many religious leaders, on the left and the right, oppose the program. Now, there are a number of Constitutional concerns as well, here. First, in all the discussions of all the cases that you have heard here today, there is one central principle, one legal standard that must be kept in mind. The Supreme Court of the United States and the vast majority of lower courts have never upheld direct Government cash support for pervasively sectarian institutions. The Helms case, Mr. Chairman, that you referred to before, provided in-kind help. The busing cases provided services, but not direct payments. In the most recent case, the Helms case, the controlling concurring opinion of Justice O'Connor noted our concern with direct monetary aid is based on more than just concern about diversion of tax-funded aid to religious uses. In fact, the most important reason for according special treatment to direct money grants is that this form of aid falls precariously close to the original object of the Establishment Clause's prohibition. Second, the rights of beneficiaries would inevitably be infringed. In the real world, protecting beneficiaries will be difficult and I add, all but impossible. Look how integrated together in Teen Challenge and so many other wonderful programs is the secular and religious components of it. The notion that Government money will pay only for the secular parts and not for the religious parts integrated into that is almost impossible to monitor and to audit, but puts the beneficiary in a terrible situation. People who come to the many of these services come at moments of crisis in their lives. They have so few choices, they grasp at straws. The notion that they can truly make a voluntary decision, whether to abide by all the stipulations in a part of your wonderful program, Mr. Griffith, is just unrealistic in the real world. Third, churches and synagogues have rightly been exempted from many laws that would compromise their religious freedom, including the right to discriminate. We have two principles in tension: one, Government money should never be used to discriminate. We heard about that earlier. Second, if religious entities are to function with autonomy, they have to be able to hire people that subscribe to their beliefs. The way to balance them out is to say, protect those rights with private money, but if you want Government money, go after it only if you can provide secular services. And finally, much has been argued that all the proponents of this money want is a level playing field. Just treat religion like everything else. God forbid. The framers did not do that; they accorded religion special status, special protections; only religion has an Establishment Clause. We have all kinds of privileges, protections, exemptions. If those who are willing to sell their birthright for the porridge of Government money do so on the basis that all we want is to treat religion just like everything else, then some day the Government and everyone else will listen, and it will be a disaster for America. And it does not have to happen. There are better ways, and we heard about many of them, from Bob Woodson, from the chairman today, there are many Constitutional ways to achieve our goals, providing technical assistance, training programs for staff of all groups, best practice sharing, targeted research on how to improve programs, reducing and eliminating fees for small organizations, including churches and synagogues, to establish separately incorporated social service arms, to assist the poor with voucher programs for social service, providing better information to the public about available programs like you provide and encouraging charitable contributions through appropriate tax relief. Mr. Chairman, I would finally just suggest to you, what is the answer to your question about why the administration did not support your bill that as I listened to it, your proposed bill, as I listened to it I can imagine a wall to wall religious coalition getting behind? Even people who differ on many of the core issues here today? I think one reason you have to consider is that Representative Cummings might be right, that what is at stake is greater interest in delivering money to core constituents or potential supporters than it is about really helping the poor. If we are about helping the poor, then vouchers would have been at the core of this, then your suggestion would have been welcomed with open arms. With mutual respect and hard work, we can affirm religious liberty, even while we enhance the ability of religious institutions to provide social services. [The prepared statement of Rabbi Saperstein follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.303 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.304 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.305 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.306 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.307 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.308 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.309 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.310 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.311 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.312 Mr. Souder. Thank you for maintaining your enthusiasm on this long day. [Laughter.] Our last witness is Dr. C. Welton Gaddy, on behalf of the Interfaith Alliance. Thank you very much. STATEMENT OF REV. C. WELTON GADDY Rev. Gaddy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Cummings. Thank you for the opportunity to present testimony on behalf of the Interfaith Alliance. With a membership of over 150,000 persons coming from 75 different faith traditions, the Interfaith Alliance is a non-partisan national grassroots organization dedicated to promoting the positive and healing role of religion in public life. Personally, in addition to serving as president of the Interfaith Alliance, I also serve as pastor for preaching and worship in Northminster Baptist Church in Monroe, LA. Now, why would a religious leader, a Christian pastor, not want Federal money to do social services? My opposition to the Faith-Based Initiative comes not out of a lack of concern for the increased number of people living in poverty, battling hunger, people without medical insurance, a proliferation of people with other overwhelming needs. Mr. Chairman, I am deeply moved by your transparent passion for helping poor and hurting people. My opposition to this program resides in a profound concern that the program as presently configured ultimately will hurt, not help, both the religious community and the civil community in their efforts to meet those needs and possibly impact adversely the people in need as well. Today I will only summarize and highlight a few of the specific reasons that I oppose the Faith-Based Initiative. Those reasons are elaborated at length in my written testimony submitted for the record. First, the Faith-Based Initiative incorrectly assumes that faith-based social service providers are superior in delivering services. The fact is that some faith-based social service agencies do a better job than their secular counterparts, and some don't. In my first year in seminary, when my seminary notes were stolen, I learned that people in religious institutions represent a cross-section of society just as do people in other institutions. [Laughter.] Second, the Faith-Based Initiative allows civil rights violations to be supported by taxpayers' money. Witness the dramatic deletion of civil rights guarantees in this year's version of the Workforce Investment Act. As a Baptist minister, I have always valued the Government's understanding that houses of worship need to employ ministers who are within their own religious tradition. But when houses of worship agree to become contract employees of the Federal Government, that changes. They change their nature, their identity, their ministry. As a patriot as well as a pastor, I want Federal money to go to organizations that are faithfully in compliance with civil rights laws. I would suggest that expectation also qualifies as an expression of good religion. Third, the Faith-Based Initiative endangers the integrity of religion, threatens to compromise the prophetic ministry of religion within our Nation and creates a possibility of harmful conflict, competition and division within the religious community of our Nation. With all due respect, I cannot help but observe that this hearing, in this, the most religiously pluralistic Nation in the world, has included language that has not reached beyond the religions of Judaism and Christianity. I fear the relevance of that reality to the distribution of charitable funding by persons looking intently at majority opinions related to electoral politics. Government-funded religion is as bad for religion as it is for the Constitution. In conclusion, let me say, I have many Constitutional concerns about this program. Those concerns are being articulated eloquently by many other people, David Saperstein being at the top of that list. But I speak to you today primarily focused not on what this program does to the Constitution of our religion, but what it does to the vitality and integrity of religion in our Nation. We are forgetting too easily the lessons of history. The institutions of Government need to stay out of the institutions of religion for the sake of religion. Authentic religion requires a context of freedom. Even the most avid evangelists know that religion can never be pushed down a person's throat and come out as authentic religion. Viewed from that perspective, the piece of legislation that prompted this hearing epitomizes the problem. It would impose a faith-based office on future administrations. Our Government has no more business legislating the imposition of a faith- based office on future administrations than imposing religion on vulnerable persons through faith-based initiatives. In virtually every testimony given to this committee today, I have heard serious concerns about the manner in which the present program functions. Why then any insistence on perpetuating a program flawed to such an extent that it would be better for us to replace it than attempt to continue it? If Congress wants a special office in the White House to assure that our Presidents are constantly aware of the Nation's responsibility to care for the weakest, poorest and most hurting among us, the Interfaith Alliance will work with enthusiasm to support that initiative. But let me reiterate: we do not need a faith-based office in the White House. We have faith-based offices all over this Nation. And they are right where they belong; in synagogues and gudwaras and mosques and churches, in temples and in storefront ministry centers. Mr. Chairman, you began this hearing this afternoon--I think it was this afternoon--by asking how you could sustain this program. At the end of this hearing, personally, I don't think you can. But I don't believe you should. Thank you. [The prepared statement of Rev. Gaddy follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.313 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.314 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.315 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.316 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.317 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.318 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.319 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.320 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.321 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.322 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.323 Mr. Souder. Thank you. I think one of the things that baffles a lot of us conservative Republicans, and particularly people of deep faith, particularly more whether it be orthodox Jewish, conservative Catholic or evangelical faith, is an exasperation at some of the tone of the criticism. Because basically, we were your natural alliance to try to help get more funds to address poverty. What you were asking us, but you have to include us at the table with these criteria. Basically what we are being told is, you are not welcome if you have these criteria. What you do is you push us with the free market conservatives who say, OK, go it on your own. And the bottom line, that is in effect what is happening in our country right now. Because we were not able to build a coalition to increase poverty funds with the condition that we would be able to take our faith to the table, there has been no increase in poverty funds. And as a practical matter, this is happening at every State level. It is much like when you go to a school bond issue, if you have the conservative predominantly Christians but would also include orthodox Jews, and for that matter conservative Muslims believing that faith is excluded, and you already have 50 percent plus of the people who don't have their kids in the schools, if you divide the people who have their kids in the school and basically shut those of us out who are conservative but admittedly a minority of the Republican party, what you have is no new school bonds, no support for school funding. And if we can't figure out how we are going to address this and bring these two sides together, bottom line is, we will just continue in the path. It doesn't matter in our country right now whether you have a conservative Republican or a liberal Democrat, nobody is increasing Medicaid spending. Nobody is doing more for juvenile justice. Nobody is doing more in the different spendings, because in effect, you have cut out your natural allies, because of the approach. I understand why, because it is somewhat inherently contradictory. Quite frankly, I have deep concerns about the entanglement of Government. But let me ask Rabbi Saperstein a question here, because I thought I heard you say this, because it was a great list where you said that we could work together. Did you say that you would support the tax credits? Rabbi Saperstein. Yes. We would support either tax deductions that were targeted benefits for the poor or even tax credits. So I am very encouraged by hearing you suggest that. Mr. Souder. Reverend Gaddy, did you agree with that? Rev. Gaddy. Yes, in fact, I was struck with what Mr. Woodson said about expectations going into this program early on, and the fact that he had hoped the President would use the bully pulpit to rally support among businesses and corporations for this program and also to make tax adjustments that would encourage charitable giving. We affirm that wholeheartedly. Mr. Souder. Let me ask a tougher question, because I also thought I heard Rabbi Saperstein say vouchers. Now, Teen Challenge presents a very aggressive, problematic version of the vouchers. In other words, somebody has a voucher, and they are taking their voucher to an overtly religious organization, let's say in this case food stamps. Should they be able to use a food stamp voucher to pay for the food that the people are eating at the program? Rabbi Saperstein. It is an interesting question. We recognize that the court has recently upheld vouchers in fairly specific circumstances. We oppose that decision and we think it is bad public policy to use even indirect money allocated through vouchers to pervasively sectarian activity. But if you are talking about the secular parts of programs run by such institutions, we would probably lean toward doing it. It would depend on the specificity of the program, the specifics of the program. If the vouchers are going to be used the way they are in parochial schools, to support the teaching and proselytization and worship that is at the center of religious activity, we would probably oppose it on public policy grounds. If it were relegated simply to the secular components of this, we would be open to looking at that program, might possibly oppose it. My point to Mr. Woodson, who has always made this argument about vouchers being a better way of doing it is, if people want to avoid the Constitutional battle under the court's ruling there is a way to do it. And I have to ask, why isn't it happening? Why aren't people following what Mr. Woodson says? Mr. Woodson. Let me just say that this whole debate about vouchers took place back in 1943, as a preamble to the vote for the G.I. Bill of Rights, when the educational experts argued that to give money directly to G.Is. would create an intellectual hobo jungle out of higher education. And we debated it. And the Congress voted to trust the opinions of the American people to make informed, individual choices. As a consequence, the money went directly to the G.Is. And over the course of that program, we educated 500,000 rabbis, Baptist preachers, Catholic priests, because they chose to use their money to educate. So we need to go back and look at that history. So I have to challenge you a little bit about somehow, on the one hand you are supporting individual choice, but then you are going to go in and prescribe and discriminate and say, but you can't use it for religious education. We don't do this with Pell Grants. We don't say to kids who are poor, you can't use it at Catholic University, you can't use it at Southern Methodist. So I don't understand that. One other point about your barriers, about protection, Pastor Gaddy. I have to challenge you too, because the groups that I support, 2,000 of them in 39 States, they didn't want Government money, but Government was coming down on their case like in Texas. We had volunteers, they have these drop-in centers that our gang members consider sanctuary. And we lead people out of gangs. What is happening is that the local government and the State government is saying, because your volunteers are volunteers, they are technically employees of and therefore you must pay workmen's compensation. And because their cars are driven by them, not owned by the organization, you have to have a collective liability insurance. Insurance issues, and it is only done against these religious organizations. So the licensing, all of those, they do require some protection from the Government. We are not asking for direct money. But we are asking for protection. That's why there needs to be some entity out there to help to protect these groups from the intrusion of Government into their operations. And a final point is that we should stop using faith-based as synonymous with church. The devil has a church. But I think that there are a lot of faith-based organizations who are faith-based but are not churches. So I think that we need to honor that, too. But I really think we need to look more deeply, and I am really pleased that I think we have a consensus on this panel that at least the charitable tax credits are a good thing. I have found this to be true throughout the country and I can't understand why the administration has a tin ear to listen to the thousands of grassroots groups on the left and right of center. There is a consensus, but somehow they are ignoring this consensus. Mr. Souder. I want to kind of probe this voucher question just a little bit further, because it is always difficult, anything that says voucher panics everybody here, and I think Congressman Scott addressed part of that, and Mr. Woodson responded to some degree, and that is, do we actually trust people, are we going to have measurements, is it going to be too chaotic in the structure of the measurement system. But there is this fundamental question of, with a voucher, you get to take a higher ed Pell Grant or whatever to whatever college you want, that includes proselytization, Rabbi Saperstein, you could address that. But the second thing is, the court also said in effect, in recent rulings, regarding Catholic schools, that the bus does not proselytize. The simplest way to say it is they allowed computers and said the computers did not proselytize but a software could. Now, the question is, a food voucher does not proselytize either. In other words, a food stamp, what does that have to do with proselytizing, even under that question when you said you didn't believe food stamps should be used at a Teen Challenge? Because isn't that the same argument of yes, the bus and the computer still are vehicles with which people do go to an event where they get proselytized? Rabbi Saperstein. Of course, we oppose the decision that came down in Helms. We agreed with the dissenters there. The court has upheld, until this time, that, and has never overruled this, that pervasively sectarian entities, meaning houses of worship and parochial schools, and some proselyting missions, have religion so infused through the entirety of it that you can't break out the secular and the religious. The court has always been resistant about direct funding, even through the Helms case. Even Justice Thomas, writing for the four-person plurality acknowledged it would be different if it would be direct funding to the institution. So the court has always been hesitant about doing this. The term ``faith-based organization'' is a broad term. I couldn't agree more with Mr. Woodson than he me, that is not our doing. That is the President's doing. Over and over again he would say, we have got to get money to faith-based organizations, then he would turn around and say, like Catholic Charities. Well, Catholic Charities gets money. There are all kinds of religious groups now getting money. It is the limited category of the pervasive sectarian entities that we have to look at differently that raise special problems. So in light of the court's decision, we for instance have always upheld, you want to take your Medicare benefits, go to a religious hospital, you have the right to do that. Same kind of logic. But the courts, in dealing with children, have always dealt differently than with adults. Children are more impressionable than adults, harder for prayer in the school, always different than prayer in this chamber, because you can see the difference of Government sponsorship. You can decide to leave, you are not compelled to be there. And educational settings are different than other kinds of settings. Well, some of these social service programs, their strength lies in the fact that they are almost teaching, inculcating kinds of things. I think that is one of the foundations of the success of Teen Challenge. Hard to differentiate, is it pure social service or educational or a mix or both? Is it secular or religious, a mix of both? Vouchers in those situations are right on the cusp. We are willing to take a look at that, much prefer it to direct funding. Because you don't have the same problem about Government intrusions, audits, monitoring, interference. You don't have the same problems here about tax dollars going by the Government's choice to pervasively sectarian entities, etc. So we would be willing to look at it, but it is right on the cusp and problematic. We have not reached a decision. But certainly far better to do that than direct grants. Mr. Souder. And I have said during our many debates on the faith-based, I believe direct funding prohibits proselytizing. I believe the court has already ruled. I believe that is a modern ruling, because in the old days, even the King James Bible was printed twice with Library of Congress stamped on it, and it is an avowed ruling. But it is a law of the land in that only indirect funding is at debate here, and how we work out the indirect funding and what constitutes indirect funding is really what we are trying to work through. Let me yield to Mr. Cummings. Mr. Cummings. First of all, I want to thank all of you for being here, and thank you for your testimony. I was just thinking about something that you said, Reverend Gaddy, that was very--it does not, we don't hear a lot about it, this whole issue of the damage that some of this may do to religion itself. It is a very, very powerful argument. I was talking to my pastor, Dr. Walter Thomas. He was talking about how the church, he felt that the church, it is a Baptist church, but he felt that the church had to have a certain level of independence, so that no matter who is in politics, that the church could still speak up with integrity, without fear. I heard what you said, Mr. Woodson, that all faith-based is not necessarily a church. But I want to just put it in this context, because you know, the church has, the church, I think, when it stands as the independent entity, and when I say church, I am talking about very broadly, they have a way of sort of policing--I hate to say morality, because morality is relative. But the church has a way, with independence, to maintain a certain level of integrity. And I think that is what you were getting at. Correct me if I am wrong. But the reason why it is such a powerful concept is because you want, you would hope that there would be something, some institution that would be able to honestly say, look, there is something wrong with this, and that it not be judged from the standpoint that, well, are they agreeing because of this or that? Do they get some money? And I just think that is something, that is an argument that you do not hear a lot. I don't see how you could even have this discussion, to fully deal with this discussion, without bringing that up. And I thank you for doing that. Rev. Gaddy. May I respond briefly? Mr. Cummings. Yes. Rev. Gaddy. Mr. Cummings, I think we have to look carefully at the way in which religion has best impacted this Nation through its history. And I would suggest to you that its best contribution to the whole American experience has been calling this Nation to fulfill its highest and best vision of how people ought to treat each other. It was behind that movement in the Civil Rights battle, it was behind that movement in issues of war and peace. And my concern is, in relation to the subject here, that if the granting of funds is politicized, like we have politicized almost everything else, we are going to compromise the integrity of religion. Because here is what is at stake. People who are opposed to this particular legislation are just as compassionate about helping poor people and drug addicts as everybody else. We want to do it, but we want to do it the right way. If you are out there in one of those storefront churches, or you are in a temple in the midst of a bad neighborhood and you are wanting to help, and you know there is a possibility that you could get some funding coming from the Faith-Based Initiative, say, and yet you want to raise a moral challenge to the politicians in your district or to the President of the United States, so intense is that compassion you are going to think twice before you do it. Because you are going to say, I do not want to speak truth to power if speaking truth to power may cost me money that I can use to help that family down the street that I know. We should not put religion in that bind. And if we compromise the integrity of religion and its ability to speak truth to power, we will bemoan the day we did it. Mr. Cummings. Rabbi Saperstein. Rabbi Saperstein. I would just add that at the core, Representative Cummings, of your observation, is the fact that some critics of the Establishment Clause, as interpreted by the Supreme Court, have foisted a myth on America that somehow separation of church and State is anti-God or anti-religion. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is that wall that has kept Government out of religion, that has allowed religion to flourish with the diversity and strength in American unmatched anywhere in the democratic world, including every country that has a government-sponsored, government-preferred, government-established, government- supported religion. Far more people going regularly to worship, far, far more people believing in God and holding religious values central to their lives in America. The autonomy of religion is protected by a strong wall separating church and State. In pursuit of money to tear down that wall would welcome Government into the life, the central life of the religious communities of America. It would be a disastrous change from that which has made America great for religion. Mr. Cummings. I was telling some of my staff members that I think religion is very, very, very important. Whatever your religion is, assuming that it is for the greater good of society, I don't mean some cultist out to destroy the world or something, to destroy people. Because I think what it does is it gives people some kind of a sense that there is something greater than they are. I think. And I don't know all the religions, but I know a few, being a son of two preachers. I guess I am just trying to figure out, going to what you just said, Rabbi, do we throw the baby, just throw everything out because it is the money and lose all of those wonderful things? The thing that I was glad to hear that you said, Reverend Gaddy, is that you want us to respect all the religions, which is important. Because a lot of people, these arguments are made, but if somebody came up and said, OK, I am a Buddhist, I want some money, or I am a Muslim, then I do not know whether everybody would be as tolerant of that. Are you following me? One of you all made the implication, somebody said something about Christianity and Judaism and how, when you get beyond that, what happens. It is just like right now, we are having a debate, and I will close out with this, a debate in Maryland about whether schools should be closed for Muslims. So our board in Baltimore County decided no, it should not happen. So you wonder, at what point, I mean, we have to be careful, we have to make sure that we do everything in our power, I think, to maintain that moral high ground. The moral high ground, I guess, is best, has a better chance of existing if you do have some independence, like you all have been saying. Mr. Woodson. Mr. Cummings. Mr. Cummings. Yes, sir, Mr. Woodson. Mr. Woodson. If I may, just a comment on that. I think that the danger from some of my constituents is that not only separation of church and State, but making the State hostile to religion. To the point, my wife is a teacher in Montgomery County, and she is not permitted to even say, peace on Earth. In Pittsburgh, in the hill district, one of the most violence- prone areas, because a group wanted to have Bible study for some kids that everybody is neglecting, and we used a public school that was empty all summer, we get suits filed against us from the ACLU and others, saying separation of church and State. But the ACLU and all these other groups are going to come down there and provide an alternative service for those kids. All they are concerned about is going back to their suburban homes and saying, well, we have protected the Constitution. What about protecting those kids? So I don't think there has to be a tradeoff on this. But I really think that we ought to be very careful when we walk down that road, to make sure that we are not throwing the baby out with the wash, in this case not making the State hostile to religion. There are a lot of hostile actions that are taken in our low-income communities. Every time our groups want to do something to help a population of people that everybody has abandoned, the only time they hear from some of these groups is when they are in opposition to something that smells of separation of church and State. Rabbi Saperstein. Except in point of fact, there is an answer to that, which is working together, we can actually defuse those problems. Let me remind the committee that when there were disputes on the issue of what was allowed religiously in the schools, an extraordinary coalition of groups, from the right to the left, Christian Legal Society over to the American Jewish Congress and the other Jewish organizations, the Baptist Joint Committee and others, all got together left to right to write guidelines that were then disseminated by the Department of Education in both administrations affirming what was allowed. Because there would be the folks who were so scared about separation of church and State they would do silly things that clearly are allowed under the law. The way to deal with that is education. There is actually a robust amount of religious expression that is allowed. But don't solve the problem by going overboard in the other direction. Therefore, I am particularly concerned about the administration acting on its own. I think it was Representative Green who said, all we want to do is codify the existing law. Whose law? This Congress did not act. That is why the administration moved by Executive order to do it. You have not reviewed this, you have not set down the guidelines that you would set down if you were implementing and developing such a program about it. The courts have not ruled on those issues. None of these things have yet made it up through the courts. It is not codifying. This bill that is before you is not codifying anything other than the administration's take on what politically it thinks will be helpful for it and we have heard criticism from the left and the right on that. That is one of the reasons we are urging you not to pass this bill. Mr. Cummings. As I close, let me just say this. As all of you were talking, I was just saying, I am so grateful that we have the freedoms that we have and that we have the independence that we have, so that you could even feel free to come here and feel comfortable to say what you just said. Rev. Gaddy. That's right. Mr. Cummings. I think we have to really be very careful that we guard those freedoms. But thank you all very much for what you all do, for touching so many lives in so many ways. I am sure sometimes you feel like it is kind of a thankless job, I know. But the fact is that you are making a difference, not only for the people that you touch every day, but for generations yet unborn. Thank you. Mr. Souder. I want to conclude with a couple of comments. First, clearly if you do religious freedom, it includes everybody, it includes Muslims, it includes Buddhists, and the Religions Freedom in the Workplace Act that I have, these bills, a lot of evangelicals don't understand that. And their support might be less enthusiastic if they understood it. But basically what's good for one is good for all. The question is, you are either for it or you are against it. But it does include all religions, even though overwhelmingly this is a Christian Nation, even with the influx of minority groups. The fact is that even among Christians, there are many different divisions. I come from an Anabaptist background, and was persecuted by everybody. [Laughter.] So we tend to be skeptical of the State. We also have a real fundamental problem with the private sector funders that Mr. Woodson addressed, because the Government funding has become a Good Housekeeping seal. Part of the reason that groups want it, because the foundations just say, well, if you don't get Government funds, then you don't deserve it. We do not have time to audit you, what weight do you have. So we have to find, and it may be through these intermediary institutions that we develop a Government certified audit, if we can't get them direct funding, that says this group is behaving up to certain standards. Because the big money is in the private sector, not in the public sector right now. And yet these groups aren't there, aren't getting the private sector, because they are hanging it on the Government. And the same groups get the Government funds. So what we have seen in the private foundations also, but in the private service sector, is that you are getting bigger, large boards. And the fundamental thing that drove this project, and it has been extremely exasperating to many of us that are involved in this, is when Mr. Woodson said, go out there and meet these individual people, what you see are very small, effective groups working from 5 p.m. to 5 a.m, on very little budget with no health care, with nothing else. The question is, how do we get them dollars? Quite frankly, one of the things we did not mention in the tax thing is you have to have non-itemizers being able to do it, that's why the credit works as well. We have to figure out how to get dollars there. But even so, without supplemental or private dollars, the question is, these groups, everybody believes, are effective. They are working the neighborhoods. How do we monitor them is one challenge. And the second thing is, how do we get them dollars. It was very easy then to look at the Federal dollars and if I can--but that has been one of the challenges. It is really frustrating, because yes, this has gone political. Quite frankly, part of the reason it went political is because we can't sell it unless we can show some Republicans a political advantage to it, because it's not our base. If this was designed to win the Black vote, it was sure a miserable failure. I happen to believe it was designed for altruistic motives. I also think we might want to change it to community and faith-based. But if we don't institutionalize it, and community-based organizations have always had a high percentage of faith-based in it. But let me point out, if we don't do this bill, it doesn't change the fact about the way it is going to function. Your points about the law, you may argue with the substance parts of the bill. The fact is, the administration opposes this bill. They don't want to report to Congress with it. They don't want to have legislative descriptions of the language. And they can do whatever they please under the current thing. So unless we do a bill, there will be no regulation of a faith-based office. So I do not understand the opposition to the bill. You may be opposed to components of the bill. But to say you are opposed to the bill means you believe they ought to do whatever they want. Part of this is a difficult challenge for how we work. I want to insert at this point in the record the full Points of Light movement statement that Mr. Petersmeyer wrote and the President's report to the Nation. Because part of the reason we had him first in this panel is I believe if you look deeply, beyond what political people may have seen out of the current President Bush, that he's actually very reflecting of his father that was a deeper type of concern for service. [Note.--The Points of Light report may be found in subcommittee files.] [The information referred to follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.324 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.325 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.326 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.327 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.328 Mr. Souder. And Mr. Petersmeyer, you told me a story about why you went to the daily Points of Light, and how hard it is to battle for these kinds of issues in the White House. I wonder if you would share that here, because it gives us a perspective that this is not a new battle. What you described I'm sure goes on every day there, it goes on in every one of our offices. I may have a real heart for this, but then insurance reps come in from the insurance industry and doctors come in and different industries come into my office that can be regulated or put out of business by it. And huge, billions of dollars at stake. And your schedule gets pushed around. How did you address this? Shed light, so to speak, on the problem that we are facing. Mr. Petersmeyer. Thank you. Well, I told you the story of the frustration in the early months of the Presidency that I felt, this was back in 1989, where I, as I said in my testimony, I knew President Bush well. I knew that he felt deeply that it was very important for us to actually solve these most serious social problems, and that he believed, as I did, that the only way that was going to happen was if we substantially increase the volume of people engaged, whether it is through churches or other faith-based groups or secular groups. The challenge was that within the White House, there is tremendous crowding out that occurs on the President's daily schedule. Unless something is a big problem or seems to have a big payoff, it is very, very hard to maintain the leadership attention within the White House for anything that's beyond the next news cycle. I felt as did one or two other people, that even though he had started his Presidency by creating this office, as I said, the only structural change made, created a role for an assistant, that the bureaucracy of the West Wing was going to crowd out, even with the President of the United States' own best instincts and desires were. So I realized, to put it in kind of graphic terms, that this issue would never be the most important issue of the day for him when he came to work, because of the crush of other things. But that we needed to find a way to have this seem to be important to his Presidency every day. I thought there was great integrity in that, because I knew personally this is what he wanted to do. So we proposed what was quite a radical idea at the time, which was to name someone in the country every single day who was doing extraordinary work and who would lead by example. There was tremendous difficulty in getting approval of that idea within the White House, because of course people there are jealous of the President's time or distraction from their issue. And everybody around the Cabinet wants to be the most important person in the Government second to the President. And it was clear that there were risks associated with this. What if we picked a pedophile on the third day? We pick somebody who we think is doing good work and then we learn that there is tremendous problems? Well, we got it approved, and there was a good bit of blood on the carpet about it. I held my breath, as I told you, those first few weeks, that we would inadvertently choose somebody that would allow people to say, see, I told you, and yank it. We did run into one problem, there was a Point of Light that we named--and by the way, Marian Wright Edelman and I were sitting next to each other about a year into this process, and we were naming five a week, and eventually moved to six a week. She was no friend of President Bush's as you know. But she said, I don't know how you're doing it, but you're naming the right people. And they are all the kinds of people we have been talking about here. David knows this and others. They came over the transom and whatever. But I think that over time, people began to see that, and this was of no interest in Washington, by the way, the White House press corps couldn't have cared less. But in communities, this was important. We found that every individual who was named generated four or five little stories in their own community, radio interviews and whatever, because it seemed that not just the President was thanking them, but that the Nation was thanking them for what they were doing. My testimony has been quite different in character from the others in this, because I don't really, I'm not knowledgeable on the issues around the faith-based component of what you are talking about. But I do think that there was a mistake in naming the office the Faith-Based and Community Initiatives. I think they should have reversed it. I think all of this attention around faith-based and the relationship between the Government is missing the point that I tried to make in my testimony, which is that we must find a way as a people, as a Nation, to solve these serious social problems in communities. We must find a way to get more and more people feeling that they can make a difference in their own back yards. The more we lose time where the debate is, I would argue, about a tactic, it is about a tactic, one subset of one issue, and lose the opportunity to talk about the need to aspire to a handful of national goals, or the talk the President gave in June 1991, which I would like to have be put in the record, which was June 12, 1992, where he talked about what it means in America to have communities that are whole and good. And he said, there are three engines that we have always relied on in this country to build our Nation of communities. One is an economy that is growing. And that is a terribly powerful engine. Another is the work of Government. The final is the work of non-profit and private organizations. He said, we must find a way for all three of these engines to move us forward as a Nation, because not a single engine can do it alone. To me the great opportunity around, just in closing, around the White House office that drew me to this testimony is really not so much about the need for a faith-based piece as there is a need for a national strategy that only the President of the United States can lead, that calls people to be about this kind of work. I believe that we will not get where we need to get as a Nation unless the President of the United States, and frankly, several Presidents back to back, pound away relentlessly in the need for every American and every organization in America to claim some of these problems as their own. There is no other solution. So I commend you, chairman, for your faithfulness to this idea, and I just hope that if there is a bill, that much of what we have talked about today is really not so much the point as it is to have the President be encouraged permanently to be of the work of leading communities. Because we are a Nation of communities, and we need that kind of help. Because we can't get it from anywhere else. Thank you very much. [The information referred to follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.329 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.330 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.331 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.332 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.333 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 23829.334 Mr. Souder. I think I am going to let that be the conclusion. I appreciate all your testimony today. If you have any additional things you want to submit into the record, this will be a strong record of the debate and where I think we can find compromises to move ahead. With that, the subcommittee stands adjourned. [Whereupon, at 8 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.] [The prepared statement of Hon. C.A. 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