On-The-Record Briefing With Foreign Secretary of the United Kingdom Jack Straw

SECRETARY RICE: Good morning. I am delighted to welcome aboard and to (inaudible) welcome to my hometown of Birmingham, Alabama, Foreign Secretary Jack Straw. Of course, we have no closer friend than Great Britain in the struggle for the spread of liberty and freedom. And we're going to go today to Birmingham, Alabama, to the place that I was born to talk about the challenge of the spread of democracy and liberty throughout the world, but to talk also about the lessons of Birmingham and the lessons of the search for multiethnic democracy. That indeed, while it is difficult, democracy is, of course, the only system that in which human dignity and human aspirations can fully be met.

I'll have an opportunity to talk about how in my lifetime these were in fact denied in Birmingham and I think it demonstrates that -- two things, first of all, that the United States should have a certain humility when it talks about the spread of democracy and liberty, but also that freedom denied is not always denied, that in fact, there comes a time when people are able to rise up and to get their freedom.

And so the link between the Birmingham story and what people are experiencing around the world is one of the very important reasons for this trip and I'm delighted to have Jack along with me to explore that theme.

I've also wanted to have my foreign minister colleagues, to the degree that I can, outside of Washington. The United States is far more than Washington, D.C. and New York. And to have a chance to go to a different part of the country, particularly the South, which many people from across the Pond don't have a chance to explore. And to have a chance for people in Great Britain to see a different part of the United States as they follow the travels of their Foreign Minister, I think will be a very good thing.

And, of course, we also have an opportunity on this trip to work on issues of common interests and as you might imagine, we've been discussing and will continue to discuss the big news of the day, which is the Mehlis report and we can talk about that if you would like in Q&A when we get there. But first, let me give the microphone to Jack Straw.

FOREIGN SECRETARY STRAW: Thank you very much, Madam Secretary. I'm hugely looking forward to this trip. The usual diets of a foreign ministers is whizzing into capitals, having meetings, going to dinners, doing receptions and leaving. It does, as the Secretary is saying, give you a rather two-dimensional view of the country you're visiting.

With the U.S., I know the East Coast reasonably well and I know the West Coast -- I've not been to the South. I've read about it, including what I regard is one of the greatest novels in the English language, All the King's Men by Robert Penn Warren, which I thought about a lot in recent times.

But I'm also the child of the '60s and I remember with horror reading and seeing about the (inaudible) over racism in the southern states, fearing for what the African Americans must be going through. And seeing this juncture at the time between what the U.S. was saying about democracy and what the U.S. was doing about democracy in its own backyard and then being hugely admiring of people like Martin Luther King and many, many others for the way they made their own choices that they wanted a different life and were going secure that.

For me, this trip arose from a moment in which I talk about in my speech at a press conference in the very grand surroundings of the Lacardo Room in the British Foreign Office, which I think was the first time you've been -- (inaudible) in London (inaudible) but the first overseas trip since formally becoming Secretary of State, a place I often tease Condi because in the UK it takes ten seconds to become a Secretary of State; in the U.S., it takes at least ten weeks and not a lot longer. Anyway, we were -- we've done the usual press -- I mean, the usual questions and answers as professionally as we could. We'd both been asked about democracy and I think the question to you was about, given America's history on democracy, what does it have to teach others?

And Condi was giving an instructive answer and then there was, for me, a rather startling change in register and tone. And she suddenly stopped and that -- a short pause and said, "When the Founding Fathers said, 'We the people,' they didn't mean me." And I was very struck by that because it was -- it's about Condi right down here. And we talked about it after as I talked about my constituency, my district in Blackburn, which has a different experience, everybody is multi- racial and we've had to cope with having been all white 40 years ago to now 25 percent Muslim and all the changes that that produces. And so out of this, Condi very kindly invited me down here and I decided it's -- thank you very much because I'm absolutely looking forward to it.

And in turn, I have invited Condi to the center of the world, to Blackburn and to a real football rather than this rugby with commercials, which I'm told is called American football.

(Laughter.)

You may not know but the world owes a deep debt of gratitude to Blackburn for many things. But one is soccer because Blackburn was one of the founding fathers, as it were, of the football league, without which life would not these days be possible.

Thank you very much.

SECRETARY RICE: And if you print Jack's comments about "rugby with commercials," I will promise to get him protection at the -- (laughter) Denny Stadium-- Bear Bryant Stadium in Alabama. I just exposed my age. It used to be called Denny Stadium and it was renamed, of course, for Bear Bryant.

All right.

QUESTION: Can we -- you said you'd be discussing the Mehlis report. Can you just give us a sense of what you're thinking? What's your reaction? And also just on this trip, I mean, you're both singing from same hymn sheet really on freedom and democracy, I just wonder what you think you can achieve when you both stand up and say that together and what the reaction of the world will be, because they will probably think that this is a bit of a love-in rally?

SECRETARY RICE: Well, on the -- let me take the trip first. I do think it's extremely important to continue to underscore the message that freedom and democracy can spread, need to spread and to continue to combat the cynicism that is out there, of two types: One, cynicism -- or one type of cynicism is that somehow there are people who are not quite ready for it and if they get it, they're going to be dangerous in having gotten it. And you hear this about the Middle East.

The second is that even if the people shouldn't be denied it, it's really not quite possible that it's going to happen. And that because a number of people seeking democracy, whether Afghans or Iraqis or Lebanese or Palestinians are encountering difficulty in doing so that means that they're doomed to failure. And it causes us to forget, not only our own history but the history of many times around the world where it by no means seemed that democracy was likely to triumph and emerge, but in fact did. And Birmingham is an awfully good place to send that message.

Frankly, too, as I said, I would hope that for the British people, it would be a different look at America. And a sense that the United States has been through a lot but that we have begun to overcome some of the birth defects of our original constitution. And so I think being with one of the strongest advocates for this is a good way to redouble the message.

I'll answer to Mehlis and then I'll turn the microphone to Jack. The Mehlis report. Even an initial reading of the report is deeply troubling. You have clearly a case in which there is an implication of Syrian officials in the -- implications that Syrian officials were involved in the assassination of Rafik Hariri. You also have a clear indication that the Syrian Government has not been cooperating and, indeed, I think one of the lines is "obstructing the efforts." And these are charges that will lead the international community to have to seriously consider how it will demand accountability and I will be discussing with Foreign Minister Straw, who is of course -- in the Presidency of the EU at this moment and also a permanent member of the Security Council -- how we might move forward. I also expect during the day to have discussions with other foreign minister colleagues, particularly those who are on the Security Council.

FOREIGN SECRETARY STRAW: You ask about our speeches. Interestingly, the first I've seen of any -- of the content of Secretary Rice's speech was when I just flitted through it a second ago. We've written these quite independently, without any -- we speak (inaudible) any contact at all about what we're going to write about and they came out in a similar place.

And my message is, as you all see from the text, is that democracy is a universal value, but you only achieve it by the choice of humankind. And that's the message from the struggle in Alabama. It's also the message that I've seen over many visits in Afghanistan and now in Iraq. And it's to counter this unbelievably condescending view that there is a chosen people across the world, who may have mainly, certainly all western and mainly white, who are capable of being -- enjoying democracy and then there's the rest who are only capable of living in some tyranny.

It is not the case, although bear in mind that when the Founding Fathers were speaking and trying to develop, albeit an imperfect democracy, democracy in Britain was a dirty word. It was a term of abuse. It really was. And right through a good part of the 19th century as well. So we've got our own history there, but it's -- to say that -- what we are now embarked on internationally, all of us, which is pushing democracy, getting the roots of democracy established, is absolutely fundamental to the peace and security of the world over of the decades to come because (inaudible) if you get democracies and they're properly functioning, you're much less likely to have poverty and conflict.

On the Mehlis report, I agree with what the Secretary has said. It is very disturbing, this report. It is further evidence of the extraordinary view that the Syrian elites have held for the Lebanon, which is that they regard it as a subordinate territory and not as an independent state. And as you know, even now they still do not recognize it. They do not have an embassy there. They see it as a fiefdom. And it was that arrogance that seems to have led to people very close to the top of the Syrian regime from being implicated in the murder of Hariri. It's an unpleasant story and it's one that the international community is going to take very seriously, indeed.

SECRETARY RICE: (Off-mike.)

QUESTION: Thank you, Madame Secretary. Lebanon clearly doesn't have the capacity to prosecute in Syria, I would suppose. Isn't it inevitable that the United Nations would have to create some sort of tribunal in which these crimes can be prosecuted after being investigated? And I wonder if you could tell us how further advanced your thinking is about what the United Nations Security Council might do, both in the area of compliance to direct Syria to comply with the investigation, which it has been found not to be doing and in the other areas that you are concerned about of support for terrorism? Thank you. The question would be useful for both of you, if you don't mind.

SECRETARY RICE: On the forum that prosecution would take, I don't want to get ahead of us. I know that there have been numerous meetings and discussions about what kind of mechanism might be used to bring people to justice. There are, of course, limitations for the Lebanese but everybody believes that there's -- in fact, the Lebanese have to be also very much involved in this process, even in the lead, but the mechanism people are having -- or going to have further discussions. I might note that, I think that there is very strong support for the extension of the time of the Mehlis activity, perhaps to December 15th because Mehlis has made clear that he needs more time to fully pursue this investigation. And my understanding is that the Lebanese Government wants him to have that time.

And so there is some time here to think about the mechanism because this is going to continue, at least until December 15th, I believe. I think the Secretary General I hope will be receptive to that idea.

As to what we do next, that's what we're going to have to discuss. Most people have said let's see what's in the Mehlis report and then see what is demanded. We do, of course, also know that there is a report coming on Resolution 1559 as well, concerning compliance with the aftermath of the withdrawal of Syrian forces. So there's a lot on the table, Steve. They've obviously -- I think the Security Council is going to have to be a focal point for it, but let us get through these consultations over the next few hours because everybody's just now having a chance to have seen the report.

QUESTION: Thanks.

FOREIGN SECRETARY STRAW: All I'd add to that is that on the issue of the judicial forum. I mean in principle, I think we all take the view that it seconds us slightly. It's a far better forum for the tribunal to be a domestic one because it's by that process that societies are better able to come to terms with what has happened in their midst. Whether that's possible with the Lebanon, I mean, we're going to have to talk about and is able to (inaudible) of the intensive consultations that will be taking place, as the Secretary indicated, over the next few days.

QUESTION: Madame Secretary, just about the trip that you're taking. There are a lot of places you could have taken Secretary Straw to see the lingering effects of racism. You could have gone to Mississippi. You could have gone to South Carolina. Why are you taking him home? It makes that a very personal kind of trip.

SECRETARY RICE: Well, yes, unfortunately there are a lot of places that you could go in the South, but not only is Birmingham my home, but Birmingham is evocative of the -- I'll use the word terror that also attended the Civil Rights Movement and the depth of Jim Crow. There's a reason Birmingham was called "Bombingham" for a long time. And I was also asked, and will do that on this trip, to dedicate with the parents of the four little girls who were killed in the 16th Street Baptist Church, reliefs of them to go into the Hall of Fame, so that's an opportunity to participate in that as well. And as you know, the McNair family was the family that I knew and was personally associated with.

But Jack Straw is a very close colleague and friend and I wanted to start by taking a close colleague and friend to another part of the United States and home seemed like a good place to start. Now, I would like to continue this. I do think, perhaps it's because I really haven't lived my life on the East Coast. I was born and raised in Birmingham. At 12, we moved to Denver. I've spent most of my working life in California and I do think that there is a distorted view of America and Americans becomes only by being in Washington for everything and so I would hope to get other foreign minister colleagues out to other parts of the country as well.

QUESTION: Back to the issue of Syria. The report cited that a suspect made a phone call very close to the assassination to the Lebanese President Lahoud. Are you interested, when you're looking at action, at pursuing a line that would push him from office? Do you think he should resign?

SECRETARY RICE: Well, we're all just (inaudible) the report and we do want to discuss all of this with our colleagues. We particularly, as you know, have had a very conflicting relationship with the French. And so consultations with the French are going on at several levels now.

The only point that I will make, and I don’t want to get into specifics about various elements of a report, but accountability is going to be very important for the international community. We cannot have the specter of one state of apparatus having participated or having been involved in the assassination of the former Prime Minister and soon to be candidate of another state. I think that Jack's description of the problem of Lebanese sovereignty is at the core of both Resolution 1559 and Resolution 1595. And so let's see what the implications of the report are, but accountability is going to be important.

QUESTION: Thank you, Madame Secretary. I'm just wondering, on your trip today is there a particular message that you're hoping the African American community gets from your visit there?

SECRETARY RICE: Well, I think that this will be a message that resonates with the African American community because the African American community knows better than any the degree to which democracy was not full democracy in the United States for a very long time. And sometimes when I even talk with my friends and I talk about the promotion of democracy, I mean my African American friends, and I talk about the promotion of democracy, they immediately hearken back to, well, how do you feel talking about democracy, given that you grew up in Birmingham, given -- and I say to them, well, in fact, I think it's not a bad thing that the United States talked about democracy, not from a point of view of having achieved it all or having been perfect at it, but rather having struggled with it. And, therefore, being able to say to other people who are struggling with it, keep struggling.

But there is also a lesson about how African Americans approached their struggle. We were fortunate that, as imperfect as our democracy was and still is, that the institutions that the founding fathers put in place allowed African Americans to petition within those institutions and within those principles. If you read Frederick Douglass, he was not petitioning from outside of the institutions, but rather demanding that the institutions live up to what they said they were. If you read Martin Luther King, he was not petitioning from outside; he was petitioning from with inside the principles and the institutions and challenging America to be what America said that it was. And there is a lesson in that, that the creation of democratic institutions is an important part of resolving conflict. That if you start with no institutions or the absence of democratic institutions, then there's nothing for these impatient patriots to demand justice from. And so in places around the world where they're trying to get those institutions in place, I hope there's a lesson.

But for African Americans, you know, I think it's -- I just hope that people understand that there's an acknowledgement of America's -- democracy that is trying over time to perfect itself. You know, when the President was in Africa, in Senegal at Gorée Island, he said that he thought it was ironic that America had only finally come to terms with the chasms between its stated values and institutions and its practices, when the sons and daughters enslaved out of Africa came to America and made that -- were in America and made that challenge, thereby finally completing America's democratic journey. And that it would have been the sons and daughters of slaves that completed, in a sense, that circle that began in 1787 with the Constitution was something that needed to be acknowledged.

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