Press Roundtable with Greek and International Media on Wildfires in Greece

Moderator: Good afternoon everybody. I am Carol Kalin, the new Press Attaché at the U.S. Embassy. Thank you all for coming. This is a 30-minute on the record roundtable for both international and Greek media with Tom Harbour.

Tom Harbour is the top American firefighter from the U.S. Forest Service. Tom has been leading a team of experts from the U.S. Forest Service sponsored by USAID here in Athens this week following up on the wildfires that have captured so much of our attention over the last few days and weeks. I will let Tom introduce a couple of other members of the team, the six-member team that has been here. He will make a brief statement about the team's activities and then take questions. I will moderate the discussion and will do my best to give all of you an opportunity to ask a question.

Harbour: Thank you. First let me say that while it was a tragedy that attracted this visit, I am extraordinarily humbled to be in this position and representing both USAID and the Forest Service in my capacity this week. I hope I've drawn on some of my thirty-eight years of firefighting experience, as we've had an interchange with officials here, and I hope that my week has been worthwhile, a worthwhile visit for the citizens of Greece.

I'd like to introduce two other members of the team that are here today with me. Mrs. Stephanie Savolaine is with USAID as well as the Forest Service. I also have with me a friend of many years, Mr. Jim Boukidis, another fire fighting expert from the United States. I have to tell you that, while I've known Jim for a number of years, until this visit I didn't understand that Dimitri is actually his given name and I understand now that all these years I've been mispronouncing Boukidis.

So, it's been an extraordinarily good visit. The team arrived last week, last Saturday and we were met by members of the Embassy and the Fire Brigade. We had an opportunity to discuss where we would go and what we would do that would be of most benefit in terms of the technical assistance that we could offer both from a fire fighting perspective as well as a very key and critical burned area emergency rehabilitation and stabilization that is so important after these fires have burned.

We also had a specialist with us from the Office of Foreign Disaster Assistance that accompanied us. We were able, in terms of our visit and our trip -- and, again, I apologize, in a week here this time and a little more than a week four years ago, I have not learned to say the names of the various locations in Greece -- but we went to the Northeast, we went to the North and finally we spent a couple of days in the South, in the Peloponnese.

I've been fighting fire for about 38 years and Jim about the same. I've been in different locations in the world as well as all over the United States, in managing these types of disasters, and I can assure you that what I saw touched me deeply. The scope of the burnt area, the extraordinary emergency that the government, the citizens, the fire brigade, the villages, the communities faced here is nearly overwhelming. I've seen things at a scale and scope before but not so close together in terms of the fires, and certainly not with the intensity of the fire that we observed during our trip. We were able to not only have the accompaniment of some members of your Fire Brigade with us but, as we visited the various areas, we were able to visit and tie in with the local fire authorities who described for us the beginning of the fire, the initial phases of the emergency, the duration of the emergency and the scope of things. We were able to see for ourselves the devastation of the homes. We were touched, as firefighters all across the world are of one heart, we were touched by our ability to visit the site of the crash of one Canadair CL415. Then later to visit the site of that extraordinary disaster where civilians and firefighters perished, and again we were touched. We paused and had a moment of silence for those that had been deceased.

We've been able, we think, in meetings last night with the Minister of Public Order, this morning with the Director General of the Forest Service here, after that with the, I believe the appropriate term would be the Deputy Minister of Public Order, in our interactions with the Embassy we've been pleased at the attention we've received. We've been pleased with both the tactical and strategic issues that we've discussed. I've personally been gratified by not only the expression of openness about whatever perspective we might had from very similar fires in the U.S., as well as the professional openness that our Fire Brigade brothers have given to us, as we've discussed how the experiences here in Greece might benefit the operations we conduct in the United States. I found the week enlightening. I found the week touching. Certainly this is one of the disasters that this old fireman will carry with him for many many years. With that all I'll stop.

Moderator: Thank you very much Tom. I would like to ask now for questions from our panel of journalists.

Question (BBC): Could you tell us, what do you think are the prime lessons that Greece needs to learn as a result of this disaster, as a result of your trip.

Harbour: Yes, I will tell you that the way I've approached this is not only the prime lessons that Greece to learn but, again, these vegetative and sociologic systems, the vegetation that burns, the location of communities inside that vegetation is not a Greek-specific issue. These fires obviously happened here and resulted in extraordinary impact to the civilian population, but these fires are very similar to fires we see in America, in Spain, in Portugal, in Italy, in other places. And there are some fundamental points of discussion that we know we can have about the conditions that exist before the fire, the conditions that exist during the emergency, and finally the conditions that occur after the emergency. The discussions this morning, for example, focused on our concern, of the technical expert we brought with us about what we call in America the fire-flood cycle, and we know that the Greek citizens face rains that hopefully would come soon. These are similar to the concerns we have in Southern California and other places. So the focus now should be on how to deal with those floods.

But the lessons for the Greek government are lessons for the American government and are lessons for folks who face these flammable ecosystems all across the globe, Australians, New Zealanders also.

Question (BBC): So, what are the lessons?

Harbour: They're lessons associated with how we utilize the land, the condition of the land that makes fire more or less ferocious. Lessons about what we must do in the face of extraordinary weather conditions because I assure you that the types of conditions that the Greeks faced here simply were extraordinary. How we evacuate populations, how we deal tactically with our air operations. Again, how we deal with some of the aftermath of the fires. We'll have a more detailed report later on. We've spent this week really looking, watching, thinking, getting our thoughts together, and we'll have in a matter of time some more specifics.

Question (BBC): But you are not being specific at all here. Could you possibly give us…what people want to know here is whether or not this government did a good enough job under the circumstances because it's been criticized. From your experience and your observations, was a good enough job done?

Harbour: I can tell you, yes, that the firefighters were heroic. These are extraordinarily abnormal conditions. Once a fire is established in these types of conditions, the heat that they had, the low humidity, the winds, there is not a force on earth that can stop those kinds of fires. That's what we experienced in Southern California in 2003, it's what the Greeks experienced here in late August 2007.

Moderator: If I may call on a local member of the media.

Question (Eleftheros Typos): You talked about extraordinary conditions. Members of the Greek government have talked about asymmetrical threat. I would like to ask you if you share those worries and also, if from your experience in America you have seen fires that are caused by arsonists for political motives?

Harbour: We certainly in America have an issue with arson. What the motives or arsonists are, those sick kind of people that would endanger lives of other citizens and lives of firefighters, I won't speculate on. I'm a fireman, arsonists are my enemy, they are sick people. We will continue to do what we can internationally to cooperate with law enforcement in terms of finding, identifying and mitigating the threat for arsonists. I always am concerned about fires in these kinds of conditions and we seem in these last few years to have more times when there is hot, dry, windy weather, and the vegetation we have here in these Mediterranean zones -- and I use that term globally because we have that same type of Mediterranean vegetation in parts of the U.S. -- just becomes extraordinarily flammable. From a fireman's perspective we frequently say as a metaphor "it went off like a bomb." That doesn't mean that there was a bomb there, it means that the explosive kinds of fire travels so far, goes so far and endangers so many people that might as well has been a bomb. So, of course, I get concerned -- no matter the cause -- about the danger not only to the civilian population but to the citizens as well.

Question (AP): I just wanted to ask about the fire/flood syndrome. Greece is heading into an autumn, and it rains a lot in the fall. A lot of fires happen to be in the mountains. I'd like you to give me as specific assessment as you can of the potential in Greece for not just floods but mudslides.

Harbour: Sure, and I'll tell you I'm no expert in this field, but our team did have an expert, a Burn Area Emergency Rehabilitation expert. In America, we take those first capital letters, B-A-E-R, and we make the word BAER. We had a BAER specialist with us, and one of the significant concerns we discussed during our week and then we just had a very fruitful meeting with the Greek government experts, the forest service experts, talking about the specific things, the photography, the delineation of burn intensity, the delineation of the slope and soil types of concerns correlated with burn severity that help the Greek government spring into action to mitigate this concern. I'll tell you that we went to the mountain north of Athens that burned earlier in the year [Parnitha] and there saw some really extraordinary burn area rehabilitation where the Greek government sprang into action. You'll see on that mountain up high around the casino and in the areas we toured some really good work, some very intensive work that's been established to try to deal with this concern about the rains that will come. I think what is extraordinary in my mind is the scope and the scale of what the government has to deal with here. Those fires in the Peloponnese, where we were the last couple of days, burned extraordinarily hot, and we can see that based on our experience. We know from our discussions, our observations that the government is moving into action, and we also know that this is one of the areas that we've proposed some quick response in terms of whatever we can do to assist the government of Greece, and that was the point of one of our meetings today with some senior folks.

Question (Ethnikos Kyrix/The National Herald): You said that once the fire gets out of control, it gets so big that it looks like a bomb. Could the fire service and the authorities done more in the early stages, because when you have 66 dead people, you have to question if you did everything in the proper way, especially in the early stages before it gets out of control?

Harbour: Yes, sir, I can tell you -- and by the way, you'll see me cocking my head because 38 years of firefighting have left me with one good ear, so I'll cock my head that way to try to hear. The loss of life tears and hurts at the heart of firemen more than you can understand. When we visited the site yesterday with the multiple fatalities, civilians and firefighters, certainly we grieved for the firefighters, but we grieved for our compadres, our companions here, our colleagues, who carry with them this tremendous burden of asking if they could have done more. Any time in the fire service worldwide, any good fireman asks himself, certainly in the loss of property but more so in the loss of life, what could I have done? I'll tell you that, especially for you esteemed individuals in the media, there is what we would say in America, Monday morning quarterbacking. You get the opportunity to review, after the event, what happened. I wish each of you had an understanding of the extraordinary confusion, the extraordinary sensual overload from the sights and sounds of flames, of the loud nature of fire as the wind is blowing and the flame is burning, as the radios are wailing, as you're asking for assistance and making determinations as to where to place your assets. So, we will always ask ourselves what could we have done different? What could we have done better? And that's probably the most important focus of this trip. I myself, as a professional fireman, as a colleague of my fire brigade friends here in Greece, would have no criticism of their handling of these events. Given the climactic conditions that they faced, once the fire becomes established -- and that happens very quickly -- there is little that we mere mortals can do. We seek to utilize our equipment and our skills and our technical means to accomplish what we can, but these extreme weather conditions build extreme fire behavior, and I will not be critical of my Greek colleagues.

Question (Reuters): To continue on the general theme, during your tours down in the areas, did you get an indication of how the fires started? And I don't think there's any doubt that the firefighters did as much as humanly possible. With that said, leaving the firefighters aside completely, how in your opinion, based on what you saw, why do you think the fires spread as they did? What measures could the state or the authorities have put in place to slow it down earlier than they did?

Harbour: Sure. Let me see here, the question, really that I have in my mind here, talked about the pre-fire conditions or what the government might have done to slow them down. That's the question.

Question (Reuters): Yes.

Harbour: So let me answer you in two phases. First, again, let me assure you based on our combined 75 years of experience in wildland fire that we bring to the table, I can assure you that there is little that can be done in the face of 40, 50, 60 mile an hour winds that can -- I apologize for not having the Beaufort Scale or kilometers -- but given these high winds, low humidity, flammable vegetation, as we've personally experienced in the United States, the fire behavior is awesome. It's overwhelming. It moves and seems to seek each piece of flammable vegetation in its path. We call it a monster as it consumes vegetation, and it moves not in a linear fashion, but it moves in an exponential fashion as the fire throws sparks -- what we call spot fires -- as it throws spot fires and sparks ahead of itself to gain more ground. So, fires, once they're established in these kinds of conditions are extraordinarily difficult to extinguish and to manage. The more important piece, again, revolves around what kinds of post-fire practices and pre-fire practices might we be able to establish that give the firefighters a better chance of dealing with fires of this ferocity and magnitude. That also is a global question for folks who reside in these flammable systems, and those are things that revolve around the land management practices, the construction of the homes in the communities, the ability of the communities to protect themselves, the ability of the individual homeowner to protect him or herself. For example, I told the Minister [of Public Order] last night and again this morning the deputy that if the Greeks had not had this construction of tile roofs and stucco houses -- stucco or rock -- in many of the houses, the devastation of homes, if they were constructed as we construct them in America -- mostly with wood -- the devastation would have been exponential to what the Greeks established here. These stucco/rock buildings with tile roofs are in themselves somewhat fire resistant. So it's the very issue of what we could have done pre- and post- and during the emergency that again asks us to do both the strategic interchange as well as the tactical interchange, and I can assure you that we have both in mind as we get through with our week here.

Question (Reuters): Do you have an indication of how it started?

Harbour: Sure. It's an easy question to ask, and it's an easy question to answer, because there are only really two types of causes for these wildland fires, lightning and human causes. Now, you can subcategorize in human causes arson and power lines and accidental fires, etc. etc. Yes, our Greek colleagues discussed causes with us. In some cases there was an indication that some of these fires were started by arson. In some cases they were started by power lines. In some cases they were started by accidents. In some cases they were started by industrial mishaps. Yes, there was discussion and there certainly will be follow up between our two governments as we both struggle with how we identify arson. I hesitate here, and I hope it's not widely reported, but I'll tell you that arson is an extraordinarily difficult crime to investigate and prosecute. By definition, the evidence, most of it, gets burned up. That's why we are so concerned about catching arsonists, and again I apologize I forgot the question.

Question (ANA?): Since May, Greece has been plagued by fires. Surely the government could have done something. You mentioned power lines, arson, accidents, and industrial mishaps. Out of these, the only one is arson that I can think of that the government couldn't have done something about. So what can the government do…probably, more to educate the citizens on coping with fire or something like that but what should they have done to cope with the power lines, the accidents and the industrial mishaps?

Harbour: Certainly. And I'll tell you that I wasn't here, so I don't know what the government should have done. I'll tell you that we have discussed here this week and what we intend to follow up on is what I've described as this comprehensive look at what can be done in terms of vegetative practices and what can be done in terms of fire prevention for citizens or for power companies or businesses. There are a variety of things here, and again I wasn't here. I don't know what went on. I believe you give too little credit to the vengeance of Mother Nature. When Mother Nature gets angry, everybody pays, and when you have these kinds of conditions, you could be asking the same questions of the government of the U.S. after our 2003 fires or after our 2006 fires or the fires I left in America to come here to see. There are a variety of causes of those fires.

Question (ANA?): Moving on from now, are you telling me the government will again face 66 deaths? There's nothing we can do about it?

Not at all. I'm telling you that the Minister of Public Order himself and his deputy and the senior folks at the Forest Service, we've discussed how to improve this situation in years to come.

Moderator: We have time for one last question, please, if there's anyone who hasn't had an opportunity yet? Then we'll return back here to the Greek media.

Question (Eleftheros Typos): Thank you. I would like to ask you, please, you've said arson is extraordinarily difficult to investigate. My question is are you willing in any way to help Greek authorities investigate, and what would this be? And also if you could define for me what are "emergency management systems" that you refer to here [in press releases] that is part of your purpose of visiting?

Harbour: Sure. So, once again, we'll respond as the government of Greece wishes us to respond through our Embassy here, but we wish to compare notes here on how we investigate arson and what we do to collect evidence. This is a concern of ours in America. Our most damaging fires in America, the fires that you read about here in Greece, are almost always human-caused or arson fires. Mother Nature with her lightning typically brings some moisture, typically strikes ridgetops. She doesn't go down to the bottom of a ridge; she doesn't pick the windiest, driest day to start a fire. So certainly we're most anxious to cooperate in terms of our investigative procedures about arson, and tell me again your second question.

Question (Eleftheros Typos): Yes, it's about emergency management systems.

Harbour: Yes. Again, there are a variety of technical attributes in how we manage fires, the Greeks and the Americans. This interchange of emergency management ideas is important as we discuss the initial phases of the fire and the extended phases of the fire. How we each manage our systems to deploy aircraft. Greece has one of the most modern aerial firefighting aircraft fleets in the world, bigger and more modern than the American fixed wing fleet. So how we deploy those assets, how we manage those assets, what we do with some of the tactical considerations of when to put those into the fight and how we put them into the fight and what we deploy -- those are the kinds of emergency management systems that we're interested in. In America, we've adopted across all emergency management agencies, a system called Incident Command System (ICS), and we're interested in talking with our Greek counterparts about whether or not they have such a system, and what we can do to learn from the Greeks also.

Question (Eleftheros Typos): Is that technical equipment also or only an exchange of expertise?

Harbour: No, certainly technical equipment also. In fact, earlier this week, I believe it's 3000 sets of personal protective equipment -- the firefighting yellow shirts that you see, they're made out of Nomex, the trousers that are made out of Nomex, earplugs so you don't get deaf like I am -- those types of things were delivered here through USAID funding, so certainly we're interested to engage in this sort of technical expertise and equipment exchange also.

Moderator: Thank you very much.

Note: Just after Harbour finished speaking, moderator told the journalists that the current total of U.S. government assistance to Greece stood at $1.9 million.