Press Availability With Spanish Foreign Minister Miguel Moratinos

I think we can say that today with the presence of the American Secretary of State our relations have now become fully normalized after the ups and downs that we all are acquainted with, normal on the other hand, between friends and allies. Now we can work together with more trust in the spirit of working together to create a better world.

We've obviously, in addition, to our bilateral relations, which has been assessed positively as I've mentioned, we've also talked about different areas of common interest for Spain and the United States. First of all, the one that always is of maximum interest to our both diplomacies is Latin America. With regard to Latin America, we've both seen that it is absolutely essential for Spain and the United States to work in a concerted fashion with greater engagement in order to allow for institutional, political, democratic, social normality of all the subcontinent of Latin America. We've seen that we share very many things in common fully in everything regarding Latin America and that we will be working on specific countries in order to strengthen the democratic and institutional construction and guarantee democracy in Latin America.

We've obviously talked about Cuba and Venezuela as well. In both cases, we've also shared our viewpoints on a common strategy. Both the United States and Spain defend democracy and freedom for Cuba and the Cuban people. And we've updated the Secretary of State on the Spanish position, on Spain's strategy which fully coincides and concurs with the American position to defend democracy and liberty in Cuba and also supporting all the opposition, the dissidents who also work for the future of Cuba. We've also reported about the results of the most recent dialogue with regard to the human rights mechanism. And we will continue coordinating our work, working together in order to achieve for the Cubans all the help we can get so that they can evolve, develop and build a free and democratic Cuba as we would all like.

We've also spoken about Venezuela. And we've expressed our concern -- our shared concern -- about the closing of the Radio Televisión of Caracas because this is limiting the freedom of speech and expression. And we've expressed our will and our desire that we may once again obtain for any Venezuelan that wants to use in broadcasting services the freedom of information and speech and, therefore, to continue working in concertation in every Latin American issue.

In addition, we've also spoken about Northern Africa and the Maghreb where Spain and the United States share a very specific interest in a final and definitive agreement being reached on the Western Sahara. There's a proposal on the table by the Secretary General of the United Nations and we will encourage the parties so that in direct negotiations they may find a final solution.

Of course it couldn't be otherwise, we've spoken about the Middle East. The Secretary of State is carrying out a historical mission and I have encouraged her to work so that this year we may see a glimpse of hope for peace in the Middle East. I'm convinced that under her leadership, the Quartet, the European Union, and all the countries involved -- Spain included -- we may all see this glimpse of peace and that we may all witness peace between the Palestinians and the Israelis.

We've also talked about Spain's holding the -- my holding the position of chairman in office in the OSCE and consular affairs, other matters of mutual interest, in addition to the major issues I have just talked to you about. These are my words of welcome, therefore, and of satisfaction on our talks. And you have the floor, Condi.

SECRETARY RICE: Minister, thank you, Miguel, for hosting me here in this beautiful place and in this beautiful city. It's very good to have a chance to talk yet again. We've had many opportunities and it's nice this time to have a chance to do it in Madrid.

We did review the state of our bilateral relations and I want to underscore the degree to which the cooperation between Spain and the United States in counterterrorism, counternarcotics is really -- and in the military relations is very strong and the degree to which that really does improve and help the security of both countries as well as the security of our allies. So thank you very much for that cooperation.

We also talked, as Miguel said, about the Middle East. It is an area that he knows well having spent a lot of time himself in that area and I always very much value his counsel and we've had a chance to talk about that. We have had an opportunity to talk about Afghanistan and the very critical mission that NATO has undertaken there. This is something that, of course, we discuss frequently in the multilateral context. But we've talked about how to strengthen the ISAF mission because the people of Afghanistan deserve a secure and democratic future. And when they have it, it will be of great value to the security of the United States, to Spain and to the entire world.

We did spend a great deal of time on Latin America because there we share common interests. In fact, because of Spain's long history, cultural ties there, it plays a very special role. And, of course, the United States, an area of great interest and involvement.

We talked, as Miguel said and I want to underscore, about the increasing problems for democratic development in Venezuela, and called upon the Venezuelan Government to reverse course, and in fact to reopen the independent television station there, and to cease these -- really attacks on the free press. It's very important that Venezuela, which after all sits in a region that is largely free and democratic, would act in a democratic way.

We did also talk about Cuba. And it's well known that we agree that Cuba should have democracy and liberty, and that the Cuban people deserve that. Spain, with its own history and heritage, of course, would understand better than most that people only can prosper when they are free. We had a chance to discuss some of the differences that we've had about how to get to that outcome. And we agreed that we are going to intensify our efforts through our political directors and others to better align our tactics so that our countries can help to promote democracy in Cuba. I am particularly concerned about the opposition and the dissidence in Cuba; that they get the right message, which is that the free world stands with them and is not prepared to tolerate an anti-democratic transition in Cuba -- but that Cubans deserve freedom, they deserve democracy, and all free peoples should stand for that. And so it was a very fruitful discussion. I think we will continue on many other courses, but thank you again, Miguel, for having me here.

QUESTION: (Via interpreter.) Good afternoon. The two leaders spoke about Cuba. What I'd like to know if Mrs. Rice -- Dr. Rice shares the position and the policy that the Spanish Government is undertaking with regard to Cuba. Do you think that this recent meeting -- the latest meeting with regard to human rights is positive? Do you think that it can help the dissidents and the opposition in Cuba? And then, with regard to Venezuela, I'd like to ask the two of you whether you think there's a danger of an overspill of this kind of attitudes to other countries with Bolivarian influence or with Chavez's influence, and with regard to Venezuela as well. Are you going to take any kind of joint action?

SECRETARY RICE: This -- excuse me. On the human rights dialogue that Spain has begun, I expressed my view that what is needed in Cuba is structural change, and that -- that means that the regime has to understand that when the transition takes place, there has to be a transition to a democratically elected regime -- democratically elected government. That the transfer from the current regime to the next regime of -- by dynasty would be counter to the principles that Spain and the United States stand for, and counter to the principles of the Inter-Democratic -- Inter-American Democratic Charter, which grants for all people of the western hemisphere to have a democratic way forward. And so I do have reservations about how much can be achieved in the context of discussions with a regime that is not committed to those principles. But we did have a very good discussion of our common view that democracy in Cuba is owed to the Cuban people, that there must be a democratic transition there, and that this is something that we will both stand for.

As to Venezuela, of course one has to be concerned about the impact of the kinds of actions that you're seeing in Venezuela on other parts of the region. It is not just a matter of the impact of people seeing what is going on there, but there is active -- and has been -- active interference by Venezuela in the affairs of its neighbors. And so the issue there is that Venezuela should respect the sovereignty of its neighbors and Venezuela should act in an -- in a democratic way toward its own people. But yes, of course one has to be concerned, though I will say that in Latin America, the great bulk of the countries of that region are governing wisely, governing justly, governing democratically, trying to provide prosperity for their people, fighting corruption. And the United States has outstanding relations with countries on both sides of the political spectrum, whether left or right. We have very good relations with governments like Uruguay, Brazil, Chile that come from the political left, as well as countries that come from the -- governments that come from the center-right like Colombia or Peru. And so we are not a country that -- I'm sorry, or Central America. We are not a country that believes that it is up to us to choose what democratically elected leaders a country will have. It is our view that we have as members of that community of states an obligation to speak out for democratic practices.

FOREIGN MINISTER MORATINOS: (Via interpreter) I would like to add, and obviously we said this at the very start of the press conference, Latin America is a priority for our concerted effort of our two countries and with every country in Latin America, with those countries that concern and preoccupy us the most; in this case, Cuba and Venezuela.

But the question is working and coordinating our work better. The Secretary has said -- of State has said so. We will continue working together and sharing information because, in a nutshell, there are two countries in the Latin American continent who have a greater influence in Latin America. It's the United States and Spain. So our policies and our actions are complementary and not contradictory.

QUESTION: Yes. Madame Secretary, in your discussions here, were you at all swayed by the Spanish position that their approach of trying to engage with the Cubans at this time of transition is superior to the U.S. position of isolating it?

And Mr. Foreign Minister, on your next trip to Cuba, will you meet with dissidents in Cuba? And do you agree with the Secretary that what is needed now in Cuba is structural change?

SECRETARY RICE: Glenn, I have made very clear before I came and in my meetings that I have real doubts about the value of engagement with a regime that is anti-democratic and that appears to me to be trying to arrange a transition from one anti-democratic regime to the next anti-democratic regime. We've talked about it and we've talked about it openly.

Spain has a different view of how to get to a democratic Cuba. What we have spent our time on today is how to communicate clearly that there must be a democratic transition in Cuba. That is owed to the Cuban people. I think you heard the Minister say in his comments that they recognize the importance of the -- of opposition and of dissidence in that country. That is one such message. Because people who are struggling for a democratic future need to know that they are supported by those of us who are lucky enough to be free.

FOREIGN MINISTER MORATINOS: (Via interpreter) Well, as the Secretary of State has just said, we've talked very openly, very frankly. She has her reservations, as she has said for herself. And I'm sure that after some time goes by, she will probably be more convinced that the Spanish approach has -- can have its results. But not -- but that's not what we talked about. What we talked about is about making our effort concur and coordinating our efforts so that we can work better together.

This government, this socialist government, has no problem whatsoever in talking to the dissidents and in talking to those sectors of the Cuban population who have opinions that differ from those of the current regime. But I would turn the question back and I could say that senior U.S. officials and senior Spanish officials who has visited the dissidents more -- well, for obvious reasons, but Spanish Secretary of State had long discussions with the dissidents recently. The Spanish Embassy has permanent contacts with the dissidents. We watch over the dissidents. We free the dissidents. We are always concerned and work towards the improvement of human rights in Cuba. So what we should do is compare what we're doing, what we're both doing. It's not only a matter of appearances or perceptions, which are totally respectable. Let's talk about facts, who talks to the dissidents the most.

QUESTION: (Via interpreter) Good afternoon to both of you. Good afternoon, Dr. Rice. Welcome to Spain. I would like to ask you, Dr. Rice, about Afghanistan. You said that you've talked about this issue and I'd like to know whether you've asked from Minister Moratinos a greater involvement by Spain in the missions in Afghanistan, greater involvement in terms of troops, missions that are closer to fighting in the front line the Talibans. I would like to know what your opinion is or whether you share the opinion that many people have read in Spain that the bombings against the civilian population are indiscriminate and that these do not manage to win over the hearts and minds of the Afghans. Thank you very much.

SECRETARY RICE: Well, we did discuss Afghanistan, and let's remember that Afghanistan is our joint obligation under our NATO alliance as well as work that the United States has been doing there in the war against the Taliban and against al-Qaida starting in 2001. And so we have a joint obligation to support the people of Afghanistan.

And yes, I have been asking everybody to do more for the mission in Afghanistan. The United States has added more forces to be able -- just recently to be able to deal with the situation in Afghanistan.

Now as to the issue of civilian deaths, every civilian death, innocent civilian, each one is too many. And we've all said that. We have to recognize that the terrorists very often embed themselves in civilian communities for precisely that purpose, so that they can put at risk civilians by making them human shields. And it is extremely important to get very clear on who is therefore to blame for the fact that you have terrorists kind of immersed in and integrated in or moving around among civilian populations.

We are there to try to make life better for civilian populations, to try to free them from a regime under the Taliban that beat women in stadiums and put men in jail for not wearing a beard or for playing music. So let's remember where the moral high ground here rests in Afghanistan, not to mention where al-Qaida, which of course is an organization that has a political program of absolute destruction and hatred and intolerance, was operating for all of these years. So we have helped to liberate Afghanistan, helped it to come over a two-year period to elections of a president, of a parliament.

To the United States -- you know well about our military efforts there, but the United States has spent $14 billion in reconstruction assistance in Afghanistan and has added more than $2.5 billion more in this last budget. So if you want to talk about winning hearts and minds, the American people are paying dearly in terms of lives and dearly in terms of treasure, financial support, to try and help the Afghan people, and I think that's how you win hearts and minds.

But you know, we do everything we can to avoid civilian casualties. It's an unfortunate characteristic of the kind of war that we're fighting that these terrorists very often embed themselves in civilian communities. And it isn't going to help to just let them sit there and launch attacks against Afghans, innocent Afghans, against the Afghan Government, not to mention against capitals in the United States or in Europe.

One last question from the --

QUESTION: Madame Secretary, there have been some pretty tough words from Mohamed ElBaradei. He's warning about new crazies who say let's go and bomb Iran. And he was asked who those crazies are, and he said this, and I'm quoting: "Those who have extreme views and say the only solution is to impose your will by force." Do you think he's talking about the United States in general or Vice President Dick Cheney in particular?

SECRETARY RICE: I have no idea. You can ask him who he's talking about.

I will tell you what will help to get us to the place that we don't face an unpalatable choice between having to do something on the military side or allowing Iran to have a nuclear weapon. That's a choice that people talk about.

But we do have a choice. We have a diplomatic choice. But it's a diplomatic choice that is only going to succeed if we are absolutely clear with the Iranians, not muddying the message in any way, if we're absolutely clear that Iran's obligation is to live up to the Security Council resolutions that have been passed. That means to suspend their activities on enrichment and reprocessing. That means to enter negotiations on a package of incentives and a civil nuclear program that would be compliant with the international community's demands.

But we aren't going to get to that favorable diplomatic outcome if we muddy the message toward the Iranians. The Iranians need to hear it loud and clear. They're hearing it loud and clear from the Security Council. They're hearing it loud and clear from the international community. I expect them to hear it loud and clear from the IAEA and from its Director, which after all, that agency is charged with protecting the Nonproliferation Treaty and it is an agency of the United Nations, and the United Nations Security Council has spoken.

QUESTION: If I may, Madame Secretary, you've been pushing diplomatic efforts and making that heard loud and clear your message, and you're making extraordinary efforts -- or an extraordinary offer, rather -- to talk. But can you assure us that Vice President Cheney does not want to use military action on Iran to deal with its nuclear policy? Because there's a perception of a divide within the Administration.

SECRETARY RICE: First, let me be very clear. The President of the United States has made very clear what our policy is. That policy is supported by all of the members of his cabinet and by the Vice President of the United States. The President has made clear that we are on a course that is a diplomatic course, but it is a diplomatic course that is backed up by disincentives for Iran to continue its activities.

The most powerful set of disincentives that we have now are the collateral effects of Iran being under a Security Council resolution which has made private -- the private sector think twice about the investment and reputational risk of getting involved with Iran. It is why on the government side export credits to Iran are going down. It is why the Iranians are having trouble getting the kind of investment that they need. It is why combined with the rather strange economic policies of the current Iranian President that you are seeing what I saw on your station this morning, rationing and long lines for gasoline. So if the Iranians need investment in that sector, they're not going to get it with the kind of reputational and investment risks that there are.

So I think it should be very clear what the policies of the United States -- the policies are and they're supported -- first of all, they're the policies of the President and they're, of course, supported by all of us who work for him.

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