Press Roundtable in Moscow, Russia

QUESTION: Do you feel like you made any progress in squashing the Russian concerns, either about missile defense or in addressing their concerns about independence for Kosovo?

SECRETARY RICE: Well, this is a process and we have -- I've, of course, not had the -- my discussions with Sergey Lavrov yet. That comes after this session. But we've had a very -- I had a very good conversation with President Putin about -- particularly about Kosovo, but also about the general state of the relationship. I understand the concerns that they have about Kosovo, particularly concerning Serbian minority, concerning what some see to be the potential for a precedent by Kosovo's independence. And we're going to try to work through these issues in the resolution. But ultimately, the time has come to make de jure of what is de facto and that's the point that I made to President Putin and it's the point that I will make to Sergey Lavrov tonight. And I think this is going to be an issue of trying to find a place -- a way to address their concerns and to yet be able to move forward. And so this was a very good interchange and I expect more today and we'll see where we are in a -- you know, when we get ready to actually vote the resolution.

QUESTION: Did you get the impression of -- they would not -- I mean, there had been some hints. I guess they didn't actually say they would veto it, but they said that they were being kind of obstructionist about it. Did you get a sense that that --

SECRETARY RICE: Yeah. I'm not going to try to speak for them on what they might do. But we -- I think it's fair to say we're still talking and still trying to work through what the real concerns are or how to think about the concerns. But I can't tell you what Russia will ultimately do.

QUESTION: Were you able to discuss at all the CFE Treaty and where that stands and what (inaudible)?

SECRETARY RICE: We had a brief discussion of the CFE Treaty. My view is that there's about to be a conference and -- observational conference on CFE. Look, the Russians make the point that this was a treaty from '90-'91; very different set of circumstances. I think we all know that that is in fact the case that it was a very different set of circumstances. But it is a set of international obligations, it's a treaty. And people have to meet those obligations. But to the degree that they have concerns that might be addressed, why not begin to look at those in the context of this, in effect, review that's coming up?

The other point that they make is about ratification of the treaty by other states and I think we need to take a look at where we are on that set of issues. But this is one that we aren't going to get very far by just deciding not to fulfill the terms of the treaty. I think it's better to try and get to the root of what is concerning the Russians and to see if there's any way to address them. So Bob Gates, when he was here, also had those conversations and I think we'll go back and see if there's some way to look in the context of the conference.

QUESTION: I wonder if you have discussed at all the general atmosphere and the relationship, the sometimes harsh rhetoric we've heard recently, what appears to be a rising anti-Americanism in Russia, some of it stoked by the official media, and if you talked about those things with the President and what his response was?

SECRETARY RICE: Well, I've talked with several people, including with the President, about this issue. And again, this isn't the first conversation that we've had about it. I talked a couple times with Sergey Lavrov about it as well. The point that I always make is that this is a complicated relationship and we're not going to agree on everything. We certainly have come to agree on a number of very important issues. I think we are doing really very well in working together on Iran, for instance, and the nuclear challenge from Iran. I think we're doing very well in the six-party talks on issues of nonproliferation and nuclear terrorism, on terrorism more broadly.

We have a lot that is going right in the relationship. There are going to be times when we disagree, but it is true that sometimes the rhetoric makes it sound as if the relationship itself is in question, rather than that there are specific differences that we have. I understand that there are sometimes also misunderstandings. Clearly, sometimes Russia seems to misunderstand when we engage in active relationships with the newly independent states -- well, not so newly independent now, but the independent states on their border. We consider this to be the normal course of international affairs.

And in fact, we've tried to be a -- we've tried real hard to be a force for helping to overcome differences, for instance, between Georgia and Russia, cautioning on both sides for moderation. I'm told that we misunderstood the comments that President Putin made about Nazi Germany, that in fact that was not aimed at the United States, so maybe there are misunderstandings on both sides. But I did make the point that rhetoric doesn't help. It tends to obfuscate rather than to clarify and we need to have a lowering of the rhetoric.

QUESTION: What did Mr. Putin say in response to that?

SECRETARY RICE: I'm not going to speak for President Putin.

QUESTION: But did he go through the Nazi comment?

SECRETARY RICE: I talked to the Foreign Minister at some length about that issue.

QUESTION: Not today, before?

SECRETARY RICE: Before and --

QUESTION: And again today?

SECRETARY RICE: And we will today again --

QUESTION: But not with the President?

SECRETARY RICE: I think that I had gotten the answer that I have -- that I needed from Russia on this issue.

QUESTION: So there was no need to raise it?

SECRETARY RICE: No need to raise it.

QUESTION: Sorry. How determined is the U.S. to press ahead with these plans for its so called defense shield in Europe in the face of such storm of Russian opposition? And also, is it a U.S. policy resolve to have the Russian Council maintain its dominant position in the former Soviet Union?

SECRETARY RICE: Well, I would question, a little bit, the concept of dominant position. Russia has natural ties now to countries in Central Asia, to countries in the Caucuses because there's a long history there; some of it not a very happy history, but there's a history there. And there are common features for many of the -- particularly the language that is shared and a history that's shared, economic ties that are shared. So to the degree that Russia has a strong set of relationships with these countries, we don't challenge that or have any reason to want to challenge that. But it -- those relationships have to be based on the way that normal states deal with one another. If you're neighbors, you're going to have a great deal of trade. If you're neighbors, you're going to have close relations.

There's a reason that, you know, the U.S. large trading partners are Canada and Mexico. It's a kind of natural set of outcomes. But what we have said is that these relationships need to be on a normal basis. Now, if they're on a normal basis, Russia and its neighbors, it's also normal for the United States, as a global power, to have relationships in this region, particularly when you consider issues of energy supply, when you consider issues of terrorism and the need to fight terrorists, or when you consider our interest in the democratic development of countries around the world. And so these are not anti-Russian policies; these are policies that are a natural outflow of America coming into contact with countries that have only more recently reached independence.

QUESTION: Can I move back to --

SECRETARY RICE: Oh, missile defense. We are -- first of all, we've been talking to Russia about missile defense since June of '06 in a rather structured way and we're more than happy to continue to talk to them about it. We hope that they will take us up on some of the offers of cooperation that we've made because we think that Russia, the United States, Europe ought to be planning for and trying to meet, technologically, the threats of the 21st century, not remain wedded to thinking about the threats of the 20th century. The fact is that North Korea has launched missile tests and none of us knew at the time whether it was going to be an attempt at a long range test or not. The fact is that Iran is developing missile technologies.

And so we will have consultations in NATO. We will have consultations with Russia. We will have consultations in the NATO-Russia Council. We've set up a new consultative mechanism. Bob Gates and I will meet regularly with our counterparts in a 2+2 format, because we don't want there to be misunderstandings about this. But the United States needs to be able to move forward to use technology to defend itself and we're going to do that.

QUESTION: With or without the Russian --

SECRETARY RICE: I don't think that anyone expects the United States to permit a -- somehow, a veto on American security interests, but we want to do it in a cooperative way and we want to do it in a collaborative way. And the best way to do it would be to do it with -- in a cooperation -- a more formal and structured cooperation.

QUESTION: On missile defense, it's clear that Russia's real concern is not ten interceptors --

SECRETARY RICE: I would hope not.

QUESTION: -- that Russia's concern is apparently the possibility that this is the first step over something that might go on over decades to be a global missile defense system that the United States could establish and decades down the road, have something that might really work and would weaken Russia's deterrent strength. And have you addressed that kind of issue either with President Putin today or how do you answer those concerns?

SECRETARY RICE: Well, Bob Gates talked about that when he was here. And in fact, he came back and he said that he thought we ought to be willing to talk about more than our short range plans, our kind of medium range plans, and how we see this system evolving because the system isn't intended to evolve to be a strategic system in the sense of the kind of '82, '83 concept of the Strategic Defense Initiative. That's not the concept or the purpose. It would be designed entirely differently. And so we're more than willing to talk about where the system is going, not just what its initial phases are going to look like.

The system of the Cold War, of so-called strategic stability in which the relationship between the United States and the Soviet Union was one of implacable hostility and rivalry and where, frankly, the only thing -- I'm exaggerating a little bit, but not too much -- about the only thing we actually agreed on was that we didn't want to annihilate one another and, therefore, ourselves. And so the -- any summit between the United States, the President and the Soviet Secretary -- General Secretary of the Communist Party was the moment when the arms control treaty was signed because that was evidence to the world that we didn't want to annihilate one another. And strategic stability in that context meant leaving yourself vulnerable to a second strike attack so that you would not launch a first strike attack.

Now I can't conceive of a political situation today in which Russia and the United States would somehow be in a first strike, second strike set of circumstances. It just doesn't make sense. And so that isn't the context in which this system is being built. It's not the context in which this system will be deployed. It's not the context in which this system will evolve. And so we have every reason to want Russia to understand where this is going.

QUESTION: Did you talk about this kind of thing to President Putin today?

SECRETARY RICE: We did not have an opportunity to talk at this depth about missile defense.

QUESTION: But does that imply that he's less concerned?

SECRETARY RICE: No, no, no, we've -- look, we talk about these issues. But I've just spent ten minutes talking to you about this. We -- you know, there wasn't ten minutes to talk about missile defense. But we will -- this -- we have had a discussion about missile defense and why it's important for Russia to cooperate. I think that's the appropriate thing. When President Putin and President Bush meet, when they are in Germany, I'm sure President Bush will again reiterate our desire for missile defense cooperation; again restate as I have what our intentions are with this missile defense system, and I think it will be an in-depth conversation for the Minister of Defense and Sergey Lavrov and for Gates and myself.

QUESTION: Are you -- is there any frustration that they just don't seem to be getting the point that you just made over the last ten minutes? That either they don't, really don’t get it or they're choosing not to understand that the situation is different than it was 20 years ago?

SECRETARY RICE: Well, look, I think that that's not how one views diplomacy, as frustration, right? You view it as continuing to work through the issues.

I think Russia -- I haven't heard anybody say recently that the ten interceptors and the radars are going to threaten the Russian strategic deterrent. I haven't heard that argument recently. It's good that we haven't heard that argument recently because it's a really hard argument to sustain, given the number of Russian warheads that can saturate almost any imaginable defense, certainly ten inceptors. So I think we've gotten rid of that argument. Now, I think the issues of why these particular sites -- and this has to do with certain technical aspects of how a system might operate -- and I think it's a very good thing to have that discussion at a technical level.

Also the question that you asked of where is the system going as opposed to where is it now, I think that's something that is worth discussing, and finally, how it might relate to a theater missile defense system that Russia has expressed interest in cooperating with NATO.

So we have a series of issues to go through. I think in the final analysis even if there isn't agreement, we'll have a very good understanding of their concerns. They'll have a very good understanding of where we're going and that will have been well worth the time that we put into it.

QUESTION: Is there any reason you chose not to meet with human rights activists who are critical of the Kremlin on your visit here? I mean, on previous occasions, I understand you usually did meet such people.

SECRETARY RICE: Well, I had a session this morning with a number of NGO -- you can give them the list -- but I had a civil society session this morning at the --

QUESTION: Can you update us on that a bit?

SECRETARY RICE: Yeah. It was extremely interesting. First of all, these are people that I have -- with one exception I think -- met before. I would -- we talked a lot about issues of so-called anti-Americanism and the importance of not allowing differences to be manipulated to kind of stoke a kind of unhealthy -- proto-nationalism that then comes back in other ways inside Russian society as well as in our relationship. We talked about the press a great deal, about what -- how people see the boundaries that are emerging for the press. We talked about what Russians watch on television and what they don't. We -- I was remarking that yesterday whenever I come I turn on my television to try to get my Russian-speaking ear and I was struck by the variety on Russian television, the kinds of shows that were on Russian television. But obviously the absence of really truly independent electronic media is a problem.

We talked about the importance of the upcoming Duma and presidential elections, about the need to make certain that there's real contestation in the Duma elections that are coming up and how NGOs can help in party development. So it was a wide-ranging -- I think we were an hour-plus -- more than an hour. We did have that set of discussions. And it's always very helpful to me because this is a very complex -- complicated place that's going through a complicated transition. And I always want to make certain that the things that we're trying to do from Washington make it more possible for the emergence of NGOs that are successful here not less possible for the emergence of NGOs. And that's why I always found it important to get a view from those who are here and working not just to sit in Washington -- and with all due respect to Bill's fine cables -- reading cables about what's going on. So it was a very wide-ranging discussion and very helpful to me.

QUESTION: Were they expressing serious concerns about internal political competition in Russia?

SECRETARY RICE: Well, yes, I mean, I think in different ways. And, you know, for some people there are long-term trends that could lead to greater political contestation as entrepreneurs develop and the middle class develops, and I think that's a very interesting argument. But in the final analysis the concerns are ones that I have heard and continue to hear that the space, if you will, for organized political activity is more constrained and then it's possible to raise those issues with Russian officials, Bill does it, I do it. And one thing that we're focusing very much on -- I was just asked on NTV -- are you interfering in Russian elections by supporting NGOs and so forth? And as I said then, it's not for the United States to have any role in who Russia elects, who is running for office, what they say, any of those things, it's not our role.

There are certain understandings internationally now about what constitutes fair electoral process, including access to media for those who wish to contest an election, freedom of assembly for those who wish to contest an election. And that's where we will focus with NGOs and with government, not on the outcomes.

QUESTION: Did you raise those points today in your meeting with President Putin?

SECRETARY RICE: We had an extensive discussion of internal political -- the coming internal political issues and circumstances, extensive.

QUESTION: Can you give any sense of how he reacted?

SECRETARY RICE: Look, I really don't like to readout my -- I don't like for people to do it to me -- (laughter) -- you know, to put words in my mouth as to what I said. But it was -- I found -- I really found President Putin very open and he knows that we raised -- I raised issues about where politics in this country is going in a respectful way, and he always responds in a respectful way.

QUESTION: From all your conversations today did you get any sense of what is driving the rhetorical -- and any behavioral shift in general, not just in the U.S.-Russian relationship, but we see it also in relations with Europe, you know, dramatic hardening over the last six to 12 months in relations with the West. What do you think is driving that? Are we seeing -- is there a substantive change in the way they're looking at the West? Are we seeing, you know, electoral politics gains here? What's your read on it?

SECRETARY RICE: Well, I think there are any number of explanations and I don't know how to weight the explanations. I do think there is some continued belief that after the end of the Cold War with the breakup of the Soviet Union and the emergence of independent states that there was an attempt to disadvantage Russia. I think you hear that very strongly in a lot of quarters and, frankly, not just in official channels.

It's a hard argument to refute because I know very well that there was absolutely no intention to disadvantage Russia. I know that it was never the intention of our policies. I have every reason to believe -- and have talked to people and know that it wasn't the intention of the Clinton Administration to disadvantage Russia. And so it depends on how you see what happened. And the fact that these countries, independent countries which were once part of the Soviet Union, now have multiple relationships, are not just locked into relationships with Russia. If you see that as disadvantaging Russia, then it's very hard to refute that argument. But if you see it as the kind of evolution of normal politics once countries become independent, it's quite a different set of motivations. But I do think there is some of that underneath.

We talked -- I've talked with a number of people today, for instance, about NATO enlargement and how it has been viewed. To our minds, the presence of democratic secure states on Russia's border is a good thing. And the fact that NATO enlargement took place alongside the development of the NATO-Russia Council, I think demonstrates that NATO always intended this to be not an aggressive policy or not a policy to disadvantage Russia, but a policy to think about a new European architecture given the end of the Cold War.

We're just going to have to work through some of that because these old suspicions remain and I have no doubt that the old suspicions remain. Maybe some of it's politics. I wouldn't put it past Russia, I wouldn't put it past the United States -- politics is politics. But to the degree that some of it comes out of a suspicion about trying to disadvantage Russia, I think that is something that is very much there and it simply isn't true about the policies of the United States and we need to keep working through it.

QUESTION: Is it paranoia? Is it bordering on paranoia? Is that the wrong word?

SECRETARY RICE: Yeah, it's the wrong word. The fact is that the balance in Europe did shift, it did change after the end of the Cold War. But Russia emerged too from the end of the Cold War; this isn't the Soviet Union. And Russia's interests are different than were the interests of the Soviet Union.

Russia has an interest in good relations with Europe. There's a European Union-Russia summit that's going to take place starting tomorrow, I think. I can't conceive of a kind of Soviet Union-European Union summit that would deal with the kinds of issues that they're going to be dealing with. Russia's trying to get into the WTO and there are all kinds of things that are just different for Russia than they were for the Soviet Union. But even though Russia emerged from the break-up of the Soviet Union, I think some of the way in which the Soviet Union broke up and the ultimate result of that has left some scars, and so working through that is important.

But I don't want to -- I don't want the considerable degree of cooperation that we have on a number of issues to be lost. It's one reason that the overheated rhetoric is particularly damaging, because it obscures the fact that on some of the most sensitive issues that one can imagine -- non-proliferation, nuclear terrorism, the fight against terrorism, information and intelligence sharing, work together on Iran or on North Korea -- that we have good relations. But that's how I would explain it.

QUESTION: And do you think you achieved anything in tamping down some of the rhetoric or the potential for future rhetoric?

SECRETARY RICE: Well, look --

QUESTION: I mean, at the presidential level, at least.

SECRETARY RICE: Well, I sure hope so, because the -- I don't think you ever hear President Bush use certain kinds of rhetoric against -- about Russia, because he respects the partnership. And I know that in political systems, sometimes people do use heated rhetoric -- I don't mean to suggest that they don't mean -- that there isn't something underneath. But you're -- I have said while I'm here that the rhetoric is not helpful, it is disturbing to Americans who are trying to do our best to maintain an even relationship.

We're going to have our differences, there's no doubt about that. There are going to old scars to overcome, there's no doubt about that. There will be times when something like missile defense may even hit an old nerve. But the relationship needs to be free of exaggerated rhetoric.

QUESTION: What do think of the deal reached Saturday by Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan and Russia to build a new gas pipeline from Turkmenistan? Are there concerns that this is going to increase Europe's dependence on Russian gas?

SECRETARY RICE: Look, we have several principles, and, you know, any particular deal is -- that can be struck by independent countries is up to those independent countries. The principles are that -- you know, everybody needs to have reliability of supply, diversification of supply, and that we need diversification of both routes and supply. So I hope that we'll get as many routes and as many possibilities as economically possible because that meets the principle of diversification.

Frankly, we also all need to be concerned about over-reliance on hydrocarbons, period. And that is work that I think all developed countries need to be doing alongside China and India if we're going to be reliable stewards on issues like climate change; if we are going to deal with the fact that very often you do have supply problems in pretty insecure and unstable places. It's why the President has been spending so much time on alternative fuel development, you know -- you know probably of our partnership with Brazil on biodiesel. So in addition to trying to have reliable and diversified supply and routes on hydrocarbons, we need to reduce our reliance on them as well.

QUESTION: Can I -- I just want to make sure I understand correctly. In your answer to the previous question, going back to the rhetoric, it sounds from that -- what you said then -- that you don't really buy this idea that Putin's remarks were misinterpreted or misunderstood. Am I not correct?

SECRETARY RICE: I take the Foreign Minister at his word, but you can ask him tonight. But look, if indeed it was meant to refer to the extremists, then I accept that, because actually it's an analogy we've used.

QUESTION: And did the Foreign Minister make that comment to you yesterday?

SECRETARY RICE: I talked to him about it a couple days ago, actually.

QUESTION: By telephone?

SECRETARY RICE: By telephone.

QUESTION: And this you did talk to President Putin the issue of the rhetoric, and is that something that's part of your discussions?

SECRETARY RICE: We did talk about the need to keep the temperature down.

QUESTION: And -- again, on the point of the rhetoric, the -- I think the substance intended behind the rhetoric is a complaint that the United States, especially on the Bush Administration, has thrown its weight around the world too much, and has made too many decisions by itself. And I've seen Putin's comments described as an effort to engage the United States in the conversation about getting more multilateral. I mean, is that something that the United States is willing to talk to Putin about, in anything at all, like those terms -- to say, well, maybe we made some mistakes, maybe we were too unilateral in Iraq, or, you know, we understand why you're worried, but we're just trying to do our best -- I mean, do you engage in that kind of --

SECRETARY RICE: To the degree that there are those who have concerns about Iraq, it's not just Russia -- about how Iraq came about. But let's remember, we also had a coalition in Iraq; it was not the United States alone. But I know that, you know, there were differences about how we got into the war. You know, that doesn't come up any longer. In fact, I thought that Sergey Lavrov was constructive at the neighbors’ conference that we had at Sharm el-Sheikh. Everybody understands that stabilizing Iraq is important at this point.

To the degree that people -- anybody -- Russia wants to talk about the way that we exercise power, sure, we can have that discussion anytime. And I've heard people say: Well, you don't consult. But then I say: All right, on missile defense, we've been consulting since June of '06 -- so actually we do consult. I've heard: You're too unilateral. But of course we are in -- with six to deal with Iran and we're with six to deal with North Korea and in fact, I can -- the charge seems to be that we won't deal with Iran unilaterally and we won't deal with North Korea unilaterally. And we continue to say we do this best working with other like-minded states to bring pressure on these states.

So -- if there are concerns about how the United States has and is continuing to exercise power, absolutely, we can have that discussion. And we're not offended by it. We're not offended if people say to us: You are deaf to other's concerns. Fine, you know, we'll try not to be. We don't think we are, but we'll try not to be. That's a perfectly legitimate thing to do. We will, by the way, have similar views of how others exercise power and we've talked to Russia about how it exercises power, in and around it, for instance. So I'm perfectly happy to have that discussion.

QUESTION: Can I take you back to what you said about the CFE for a moment? You said, if I understood you right, that you needed to go back and look at where we were in the ratification process. And then you talked about the possibility of a conference about the subject --

SECRETARY RICE: No, there is a conference coming up.

QUESTION: Excuse me.

SECRETARY RICE: There is a conference, yes.

QUESTION: What I didn't get was -- you didn't make any reference to the Istanbul commitments and surely, if you look at ratification, you're not cropping it, you're --

SECRETARY RICE: No, absolutely not. I'm -- no, and Russia needs to fulfill the Istanbul commitments. I think we've looked -- we do need to acknowledge that they have on Georgia, or they will shortly have on Georgia. And there's the question of Moldova. But my only point is that if people have concerns, rather than suspending, or pulling out, or whatever, it's better to raise those concerns in the context of the treaty.

QUESTION: If I could just -- a couple more questions. Could I ask -- on another topic, totally -- Haleh Esfandiari -- the Iranians have confirmed today that she has been arrested and she's being held for some charge about -- like international security. Do you have any --

SECRETARY RICE: I haven't seen their statement, but -- you know, it just underscores the nature of the Iranian regime, and it just gives every -- it gives strength to the argument that it's a regime that does not -- in addition to all of the problems that it causes internationally -- it does not treat its people, or in this case, a dual citizen, very well. And she ought to be released, and she ought to be released immediately.

QUESTION: Just so you know, the -- you apparently made your point. Sergey Lavrov has just said that the president supported the American side’s, understanding that it's necessary to tone down the rhetoric in public statements and concentrate on concrete business. So, congratulations. (Laughter)

SECRETARY RICE: Well -- (laughter) -- good, I'm glad to hear that. You got to break the news to me, that's -- (laughter).

QUESTION: Can I have -- an unrelated question?

SECRETARY RICE: Yeah.

QUESTION: Is there anything new from the --

SECRETARY RICE: Does anybody else have a Russia question before we --

QUESTION: Sorry.

QUESTION: I got one.

SECRETARY RICE: Yeah, right. I'll come back to you, Matt.

QUESTION: You mentioned Georgia a moment ago. Did it come up -- the helicopter raid in the Kodori Gorge, did that come up?

SECRETARY RICE: No, we've dealt with that before though, we have dealt with it before. We've really tried, and I think if you talk to Russia and you talk to Georgia about this, the United States really wants to see Russia and Georgia have good relations, and they've improved, those relations have improved. And so when there's an incident like that, we try to work with both sides to make certain that the temperature has cooled. Dan Fried has a very active channel of engagement with Russia about the whole region, and of course we're in constant contact with the Georgians, but we've worked very hard for improving relations between Georgia and Russia.

Yes. Okay, Matt.

QUESTION: I was just wondering if there's anything -- you read the World Bank report on Mr. Wolfowitz -- is there anything new on the --

SECRETARY RICE: I've not, and there's nothing new, but let me just say that -- you know, Paul is a really fine public servant and I know him well and his passion for helping the poor and trying to improve the lot of people who have been left out. It's really quite remarkable -- and you know, it didn't just start with the World Bank, he was one of our best ambassadors to Indonesia because he cared about those issues.

QUESTION: I'm sorry, he was one of our best what?

SECRETARY RICE: Ambassadors --

QUESTION: Ambassadors.

SECRETARY RICE: -- to Indonesia. So he's a really good -- really fine public servant and it seems to me that what happened there is he said he made some mistakes, but it doesn't seem to be the kind of thing that you would want to see the dismissal of a World Bank President over. And he really has a passion for these issues, but -- you know, I hope it will be resolved in a way that is true to what really happened there, and that also strengthens the bank, a very important institution.

All right. Thank you. Thank you very much.

QUESTION: Thank you.

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