Social Security Administration
Ticket to Work and Work Incentives Advisory Panel Meeting
July 9, 2001

Deborah Morrison opened the meeting at approximately 3:30 p.m. Sarah Wiggins Mitchell, Chairperson, introduced herself and reviewed the agenda.

The following Panel members were present:

Sarah Mitchell, Chair
Susan Webb
Bryon MacDonald
Kris Flaten
Thomas Golden
Larry Henderson
Richard Burkhauser

Frances Gracechild and Stephanie Lee joined the meeting at a later time.

TWWIIA Advisory Panel Staff present included: Marie Strahan, Theda Zawaiza and Tamara Allen

Other SSA Staff present included: Deborah Morrison, Paul Van de Water, Ken McGill and Richard Balkus

Members of the public included: Sandra Akers, Leslynn Angel, Jeanne Argoff, Peter Barid, Richard Balkus, Gene Bianco, Jackie Bisbee, Felix Briones, Larry Buckholter, Barbara Butz, Sue Carey, Cathy Carlson, Penelope Chandler, Sarah Clardy, David Clinton, Elaine Conley, Doug Cooper, George Cronheim, Eileen Danaher, Mav Dannon, Ms. Dehughes, Tom Dixon, Gary Edwards, Rose Esteves, Melissa Forte, Jeff Funk, Cathy Griffin, Jim Griffin, David Harkins, Mary Hartle-Smith, John Hennessey, Kathy Henry, Bob Horvath, Daniel O'Brien, Elfia Jauregui, Nicki Jeffords, Steven Johnson, Sheila Lambert, Toni Lane, Suzanne Lee, Eliseo Lopez, Mike Massey, John McClure, Brenda McDomb, Audrey Merten, Roger Meyer, Timothy Miller, Pam Mitchell, Mary-Alie Mowry, Ross Purdue, Debbie Quinn, Mark Ravenscraft, John Reiser, Stacy Ritt, Tom Scheurich, Steven Sear, Paul Seifert, Kathy Sells, Ava Shaffer, Sharon Shapiro-Lacks Carrie Sheffield, Sara Smith, Courtney Snyder, Cindy Soto, Gerald Such, Becky Taylor, George Thomas, Linda Toms-Barker, Annaliza Torres, Jeanne Tyler, James Ultray, Christine Vint, Larry Wanger, Michael Weinstein, Margaret Williams, and Laura Williams.

Evaluation Committee Report and Recommendations

Dr. Zawaiza reminded the Panel that they were asked to address three questions for the Two-for-One Demonstration: What should be the earnings disregard for participants, what should be the reporting period, and what should happen with the existing work incentives. The Panel had adopted motions for questions two and three at a previous meeting. Question one was still open for discussion. This question dealt with the earnings disregard, which the legislation stipulates is determined by the SSA Commissioner.

Mr. Golden reported that the evaluation committee had been discussing this issue at its committee meeting, which took place immediately prior to the Panel meeting. Ms. Flaten moved that the Panel recommend that the SSA evaluation study be mandatory, rather than voluntary, for participants and Dr. Burkhauser seconded the motion. Mr. MacDonald pointed out that the proposed evaluation does not meet statutory requirements, irrespective of this motion. He expressed concern about the induced entry issue. Ms. Flaten pointed out that SSA staff needs the Panel's recommendation on mandatory participation, so that they can prepare the task order. Ms. Mitchell expressed concern that beneficiaries may be harmed by participating in this demonstration and was concerned if participation was mandatory. Ms. Flaten felt that the study would not have much scientific value if participation is voluntary. Ms. Webb said that the only people who would be harmed would be those who go to work earning less than SGA. The demonstration might change beneficiary options if he or she goes to work. Only in this situation would the individual receive fewer benefits than he or she would have received without the demonstration. Dr. Burkhauser said that a voluntary demonstration would provide biased information. However, the study could still be conducted so that no one would be harmed. Ms. Flaten felt that beneficiaries should not lose more by being in the demonstration than they would by being out of it. Ms. Webb suggested a friendly amendment to Ms. Flaten's motion that "participation should be mandatory as long as no one is harmed by their participation." Ms. Mitchell asked the Evaluation Committee for their opinion and Mr. Golden polled the members. Dr. Burkhauser said he supported mandatory participation and said he would support reductions in the disregard if they pass the Institutional Review Board (IRB) test. Ms. Flaten supported mandatory participation but not a lower income disregard. Ms. Webb supported mandatory participation with review by the IRB. Mr. MacDonald abstained. Mr. Golden supported mandatory participation with the proviso of no harm to individual beneficiaries.

Ms. Strahan stated that the Panel had a number of options for making a recommendation. The Panel could convey its recommendations in a letter, communicate to the agency that the Panel did not come to a recommendation, take a formal vote, write a letter outlining the discussion, etc. Mr. MacDonald expressed concern that crucial decisions had been made about the demonstration without the Panel's input; e.g., induced entry. He expressed concern that the motion on the mandatory nature of participation might sanction other decisions already made in the demonstration design.

Dr. Burkhauser explained that there are two issues that the demonstration will address. First, people will provide information about the effect of income disregard and other work incentives. This relates to the mandatory nature of the demonstration. The second issue is the induced entry issue. The Panel has not yet addressed this issue. Dr. Burkhauser stated that the majority of the evaluation committee was not in favor of lower income disregards if participation in the demonstration was mandatory.

Ms. Lee and Ms. Gracechild joined the call at this point. Ms. Lee said that she did not support mandatory participation if income disregards were reduced.

Ms. Flaten's motion to support a randomized, mandatory participation demonstration was considered. Mr. MacDonald stated that this motion would mean that state partnership projects would be excluded from participation in the demonstration. Ms. Webb, Ms. Flaten and Dr. Burkhauser voted yes; Ms. Gracechild, Mr. Henderson, Ms. Lee, Mr. Golden, and Ms. Mitchell voted no. Ms. Strahan asked what the Panel wished to communicate to the agency on the issue. She recommended that the staff prepare a short report, which summarizes the discussion. The Panel agreed by consensus.

Dr. Burkhauser moved to support a randomized voluntary demonstration as long as no one in the treatment group is worse off than those in the control group. Ms. Flaten seconded the motion. Ms. Flaten, Dr. Burkhauser, Mr. Henderson, Ms. Mitchell, Mr. Golden, and Ms. Gracechild voted yes; Ms. Webb and Mr. MacDonald voted no. Ms. Webb stated that she voted no because this motion means that the income disregard must remain above $740 for all participants. Ms. Flaten also asked that the report include a discussion of the complications of SSDI beneficiaries with spouses and dependents under the demonstration.

Second Year Ticket Roll Out

Dr. Paul Van de Water asked the Panel for input on selection of states for the second and third years of the Ticket. For the first year, SSA staff tried to strike a balance between practical implementation and evaluation concerns; e.g., whether the state had the infrastructure to implement the ticket and whether the selected states represented the nation. Staff also wanted to ensure that the first round of states would reflect only one-third of recipients, represented a number of SSA regions, and included some states with a Medicaid buy-in. SSA would like to announce the second round of states shortly after the first round is implemented, so Panel input is needed shortly after its August meeting. In response to a question from Ms. Mitchell, Dr. Van de Water said the announcement would be shortly after the tickets are mailed out. He suggested that the Panel review materials prepared for the first round of Ticket implementation. Dr. Zawaiza said she would work with Dr. Van de Water on getting this packet to the Panel.

Mr. McGill stated that staff was working on finalizing the regulations for submission to OMB, with a projected completion date of the end of the summer. He pointed out that regulations are effective 30 days after publication. The first round of tickets will not be issued until the regulations are finalized.

Ms. Strahan said that some Panel members had not sent in their financial disclosure forms. All Panel members must complete the financial disclosure forms.

Dr. Burkhauser asked about the July 27th roundtable. It will be at the Holiday Inn on C Street in Washington DC. Staff will send out information on this meeting tomorrow. This meeting is for the Evaluation Committee, but all Panel members are welcome.

Ms. Gracechild moved and Mr. MacDonald seconded a motion to adjourn the meeting. The meeting was adjourned at 5:10 p.m.