Jane Platt:
Thank you very much. I'd like to apologize for the brief delay in starting today. Uh, we had quite a few -- we've had quite a few callers. It's a very interesting topic today, obviously. So we wanted to make sure everybody had a chance to be on before we started.
So welcome to a Phoenix Mar Lander media telecon for Friday, June 20th. I'm Jane Platt with the Media Relations Office at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California. We are going to hear from three speakers at the University of Arizona in Tucson. They will give us the latest news, which as mentioned, is pretty interesting.
And then, we'll begin Q&A. If you have a question at any point, please press *1 to get in the lineup. The visuals for today's briefing are online at phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu. And www.nasa.gov/phoenix. Uh, I'd like to remind our participants that you basically have an open phone line, an open mic. So, uh, please mute your phone unless you're speaking.
And I would also like to tell you that we do have Phoenix project manager, Barry Goldstein, of JPL on with us this morning. And he'll be available for questions. But first, we're going to hop over to the University of Arizona where Sara Hammond will introduce our speakers. Hello, Sara.
Sara Hammond:
Good morning, Jane. Thank you so much. This is Sara Hammond, the public affairs manager for the Phoenix Mars mission. And we have three panelists I know you're going to want to hear from this morning. Peter Smith, the principal investigator of the mission from the University of Arizona.
Mark Lemmon, and his surname is spelled, L-E-M-M-O-N. He's a Surface Stereo Imager co-investigator from Texas A&M University. And Ray Arvidson, A-R-V-I-D-S-O-N, the, uh, Robotic Arm co-investigator and our dig tsar from Washington University in St. Louis. Peter, why don't you start, please?
Peter Smith:
The Phoenix mission was inspired by the observation from Odyssey and, uh, and modeled by the Odyssey scientists that there was ice in the northern plains of Mars. Uh, our mission is designed to-to land on that ice. And in fact, our landing site was carefully chosen as being the place where ice was very likely to exist under the surface.
We, uh, planned to-to look for two things associated with the ice. One is, does the ice melt? We're following the water, but it's liquid water we're really most interested in. And two, does the, uh -- does that melted ice environment allow a habitable zone on Mars? That is, a place where organic materials and energy sources combined with liquid water can be a habitat for Martian life.
Uh, we do not have instruments that actually detect life itself. We're looking, at this stage, for the habitat life. And it'll be future missions that, uh, search the habitat for actual living organisms. So it was with a great deal of, uh -- of thrill as we landed and looked underneath the Lander to see that the thrusters had uncovered a very h-hard, bright layer about five or six centimeters, uh, beneath the Lander.
Unfortunately, our Robotic Arm can't really reach under the Lander to test these materials. And our first, uh -- in fact, I-I put up a-a picture from, I guess, about two weeks ago that, uh, shows that, uh, Robotic Arm image taken underneath the Lander showing the very hard, bright material uncovered by the thrusters.
Man-many members of our science team were reluctant to call this ice right away, even though it was predicted that ice would be found in this region between two and six centimeters under the surface, because hard, uh, bright surfaces could be salt. It could be some sort of rocky layer. And it could be other things.
So it's been, uh, a little bit of a-a challenge to get the science team to agree on just what these hard materials are. And when we dug our first trench, which was called Dodo and has been expanded to a D-Dodo-Goldilocks trench, we uncovered white -- bright white material, very hard in this trench. And again, it could have been a salt layer. It could have been a rockier layer, or it could have been some other thing.
And, uh, so now, we've dug a third trench in, what we call, the-the Wonderland area. And this trench has uncovered a hard layer that's a little more bluish and not quite as-as white as the-the others we've looked at but also at about five centimeters. And so we've been looking for some way to prove that this material is not salt and not rock, not some hard soil that, uh, has mysterious properties, but that it's water ice as we were hoping to find and-and really our experiments are designed around.
So it's with great pride and a lot of joy today, I announce that we have found the proof that we've been seeking that show that this hard, bright material really is water ice and not some other substance. And to, uh -- to show the images is our lead co-investigator for the Surface Science, uh, uh -- Surface Stereo Imager -- excuse me -- Mark Lemmon, who has put together the images that are-are, I think, final proof to our science team that we're indeed looking at a water ice layer and not some other substance. Mark?
Mark Lemmon:
Hello, everyone. This is Mark. And I've got a few images to show. So for reference, I'm looking at the University of Arizona web site with the, uh, latest images that we are putting out. And I'd like to describe a little bit about, uh, the operations that we've had and the things we've seen in the Dodo-Goldilocks trench over the last several days.
Uh, on Sol 19, we had completed a dig in Dodo-Goldilocks and planned the next day a dig also. Uh, but during the course of that planning, an image came down showing that we dislodged a white fragment. This is on the second row of the images at Arizona, uh, at the very, uh, right-hand side. Uh, this has been previously released.
But we saw that white fragment, and it was very interesting. Uh, unfortunately, from the point of view of continuing to monitor that fragment, the digging the next day, uh, pretty much leveled the floor of the trench, exposed a little bit more of the, uh, white layers at the top. Uh, so on Sol 20, we acquired a new image.
And then, uh, subsequent to that, we have not dug in the Dodo-Goldilocks area, but we continued to monitor. Uh, one of the investigators on this team noticed that, uh, some of the fragments in the trench appeared to be changing size. So it was a high priority to continue the monitoring.
And if you look at the animated GIF that we released yesterday, uh, which is also on this site, uh, that shows a comparison of the Sol 20 and the Sol 24 images. And this is using an infrared filter just to take advantage of the, uh, bright sky light on Mars, so that you can see into the shadows reasonably well. So I'll call your attention mostly to the shadowed area and the things that come and go between them.
On Sol 20, there are several fragments that were dug up, uh, by the Robotic Arm in the course of the normal operations, just, uh, piled in one corner of the trench. And in the Sol 24, those fragments are gone. Uh, there are something on the order of eight things missing. Uh, so that's very interesting to us, that we see something in the trench that we dug up.
It's entirely in the shaded side of the trench. It's already missing, uh, if it was ever there from the sunny side of the trench. And then, a few days later, uh, these things are gone. Uh, salt does not behave like that. Uh, they're not just changed in appearance slightly. Uh, they're literally disappeared. So we believe that these things are water ice and that, in the course of sitting through the cold but very, very dry Martian en-environment for several days, having sun shining on them in the morning, uh, they sublimated.
The ice went away in-into water vapor similar to a cold day on Earth after it snows, uh, the-the snow can go away just sitting in very, very dry air without any melting being involved. The same thing is happening to these chips on Mars. Uh, just for reference, the largest of those chips that you see going away is about two-thirds of an inch across.
And the next image I've got to show, this is, uh, the second one in on the middle row, uh, shows a five by five comparison in color of the Dodo-Goldilocks trench on Sol 20 and on Sol 24. Uh, you can see two types of changes. One is you can see the, uh, fragments with their slightly whitish tint in the shade on Sol 20 and gone in 24. Uh, and you can see slight changes up in the exposed, uh, icy layers at the top of the trench where some of the frosty appearance, uh, has been reduced.
So I think I'd just like to emphasize here that what this is telling us is that we've got ice -- fragments of ice and dirt mixed together probably but without a lot of ice in them. And the-the ice went away, dissolved [into fragments]. What this tells us is, we found what we found what we're looking for.
We came to this site because we expected to find water ice. This tells us that we've got water ice within reach of the Arm, uh, which means that we can continue the investigation with the rest of the instruments in this mission. The interesting thing is [now] simply confirming that, yeah, we can target the water right. It's really getting in there and finding out what is mixed in with the ice and finding out to what extent it's a habitable environment.
And those are the sorts of questions we'll be answering with the full Phoenix payload over the next, uh, several weeks. And so I think to continue the discussion of what we're doing with the rest of the site in front of us, I will hand things off to Ray Arvidson.
Ray Arvidson:
Thanks, Mark. And hello, everybody. Uh, the trench that, uh, Mark mentioned, the Dodo-Goldilocks trench, is interesting because it's dug on a slope. And in fact, just to the, uh -- the north of the Lander, uh, further out from the trench, there's a polygon called Humpty Dumpty. And this mission is all about polygonal terrain because we saw the polygonal terrain from the orbital observation through the very exquisite imaging system called [High Rise].
And even from the surface, we can see numerous polygons extending out to the horizon. And where we landed was on the edge of a polygon. Uh, one of them was Humpty Dumpty. And the dig for Dodo-Goldilocks is, in fact, on the-the side of Humpty Dumpty. It's sloping at about 14 degrees. So we trenched on the side and the end of the trench where Dodo-Goldilocks is in the trough in between Humpty Dumpty and whatever other polygon that we're-we're sitting on with the Lander.
We think that the polygon trough collects wind blown material. Uh, so that's not as interesting as going to the top of a polygon and sampling the material, which we think would be more in contact with the-the ice and perhaps processed if there have been [films] of water [going] melt periods and perhaps salt.
So what we did after finishing up Dodo-Goldilocks, we went over with the Robotic Arm to a new polygon that's called Wonderland or, more broadly, Cheshire Cat. And it's kind of our-our national park system. And what we decided to do was open it up because we wanted to dig right on top of that polygon.
And we've done a pair of excavations called Snow White 1 and Snow White 2. And they're on the, uh, middle row, third from the left. And if we could blow that up to real size, uh, what you see is the results of the, uh -- result of that excavation. The left-hand s-side, uh, is the first excavation. The right-hand side is the second excavation. And just for reference, the scoop is about eight and a half, uh, centimeters wide.
And it operates so far in a backhoe mode, where we go out with the Robotic Arm with the scoop and then pull backwards, much as you would do with a hoe in your -- in your garden. The Robotic Arm actually stopped toward the end of its operations in Snow White 2 on the right-hand side because it detected something hard.
And the way the Robotic Arm operates with the software, after three tries, if the currents are too high for the Robotic Arm to continue, it basically says, "No, this is not good for me. What I'm going to do is dump the soil out in the pile and then wait for further instructions."
And if you look carefully at the bottom of Snow White 2 on-on the right-hand side, there's a horizon that, uh, looks pretty flat. And it may be given the hardness of it. It kind of looks like an ice layer. It feels like an ice layer from the point of view of the Robotic Arm telemetry or the-the, uh, forces it encountered.
So I think what's happened is that we've excavated with Snow White 2 down to the third exposure of ice. So we have Holy Cow. We have those layers in Dodo-Goldilocks. Now, I think we have Snow White 2. So what's going to happen over the next two weeks or so is to sample soil And that's happening, uh, as we speak just to the left of the trench in an area called Rosy Red. That's an alternate name for Snow White.
And we're going to acquire samples for the three instruments. And when that's finished, we'll go back into Snow White 2 and groom it a little bit with the backhoe. So we also have a secondary blade on the bottom of the scoop that's a scraper. So we'll try some s-scraping experiments. And then, thirdly, as you folks know, we have a little rasp about the size of your pinky that comes out of the bottom of the-the, uh, scoop to a slot.
So we have in our-our kind of ice attack arsenal, backhoeing, scraping and rasping. We'll try all those on this-this hard layer that we're pretty convinced is a -- is a third exposure of ice. Let me turn it back to Sara.
Sara Hammond:
Okay, Jane. I think we're ready for questions.
Jane Platt:
Okay. Thanks a lot, Sara. And thank you to our speakers. It's time for our Q&A. And again, to ask a question, just press *1 to get into the lineup. And as a courtesy to your fellow journalists, I would ask, on this first round, please do limit yourself to one question and one follow-up.
And again, reminding our speakers, please identify yourself when you're answering a question, so that reporters can follow along with the conversation. And nobody ends up getting misquoted. All right. We're going to take our first question from Dan Whitcomb at Reuters. Go ahead, Dan.
Dan Whitcomb:
Uh, uh, I wonder if one of the guys can tell me why there is a layer of dirt over the ice?
Ray Arvidson:
Uh, this is Ray. What we calculate theoretically is that ice is not stable [in the] at the very surface. And you have to go down about five centimeters where it's protected from the sunlight. And the gas pressures are such that ice becomes stable all through the summer and into the fall. We've actually seen over this site, uh, during the winter monitored from the orbital, uh, assets that we have, Co2 ice about 30 centimeters thick mixed with some water ice.
Then, the Co2 ice disappeared by sublimation to a gaseous phase. And the water ice was left in the spring. But now, the observations from orbit show now exposures of water ice, uh, anywhere near the landing site. And it's just not stable over the summer. In-in fact, that's why we think those little bits of ice in the Dodo-Goldilocks trench disappeared when they were subjected to sunlight over only, you know, course of a Sol or two.
Dan Whitcomb:
[unintelligible] Thank you.
Jane Platt:
Would somebody like to jump in and take a shot at that? Hello?
Male Voice:
Shot at what?
Sara Hammond:
I believe Ray answered the question.
Jane Platt:
Okay. Sorry about that. Uh, next question is Dave Perlman from the San Francisco Chronicle.
Dave Perlman:
Yeah. Hi, fellows. Uh, I'm looking at the image of, uh, the trench dubbed Snow White and, uh, the feature called Cheshire Cat. There is a rather large -- relatively large whitish, uh, I'll call it a rock, uh, to the left. And I'm wondering, is that whiteness something that is sublimating? Or have you any knowledge as to what that is?
Ray Arvidson:
Yeah, David. This is Ray. Yes, you have good eyes. We think that's a buried rock, uh, that was exposed during the first part of the trenching that made Snow White 1. Snow White 2 is off to the right. And that, in fact, is an interesting rock because it's big enough to kind of drive where to go to get soil to the left. And it-it looks like a rock, kind of feels like a rock. So we think it's a rock.
Dave Perlman:
[laughs] Okay. Then, it's -- then, it's not something that you're expecting to sublimate and suddenly find it disappeared, I take it.
Ray Arvidson:
Well, this-this is Ray again. We'll certainly watch for sublimation. And I'll be the first to call you if it disappeared.
Dave Perlman:
[laughs] Okay. All right. Thanks very much.
Jane Platt:
Okay. Thanks, Dave. We're going to take the next question from Tom Beal at the Arizona Daily Star.
Tom Beal:
Good morning. Uh, was just wondering if the-the-the length of time between the, uh, appearance of the white specks and the disappearance is four days, did you have subsequent photos that-that you lost in that software glitch? Uh, or -- and/or, uh, do you have plans now to-to monitor on a more consistent basis to see how long that sublimation takes?
Mark Lemmon:
We do have images --
Sara Hammond:
Identify yourself.
Mark Lemmon:
Oh, sorry. This is Mark Lemmon. We do have images on the ground from Sol 21 of this feature. The lighting conditions are sufficiently different that it makes the comparison difficult. Uh, however, we can say that the largest, uh, several of those, uh, ice pebbles are present in Sol 21. We know they lasted at least overnight.
Uh, and then, I don't believe we had continuing coverage planned the next day. Uh, so at this point looking into the future, we will continue monitoring, uh, everything in this trench because we're seeing subtle changes in, uh, the icy surface up at the far end of the trench. And we'd like to see how that evolves as well as see if any of the other stuff in the trench continues to disappear or move around. So that is a definite high priority for us to continue this monitoring.
Tom Beal:
Thank you.
Jane Platt:
Okay. We're going to take a question now from Miles O'Brien at CNN. Hello, Miles.
Miles O'Brien:
Hello. Can you hear me okay?
Jane Platt:
Yes, we hear you great.
Miles O'Brien:
All right. Great. Well, given the volatility of this water ice, how quickly do you have to move to get it into the TEGA. And if you could describe for me, once it gets in there, uh, and you-you heat it up, won't it just sublimate? Or does it actually pass through a liquid phase when it's inside that oven?
Peter Smith:
Hi, Miles. This is Peter. Uh, the, uh, plan for-for sampling the ice is to gather it up rather quickly using our power tool we call the rasp. Uh, to deliver it within 30 minutes to the TEGA instrument. And then, as it is verified that it's gotten into the oven, the oven is sealed. And once it's sealed, it's no longer able to sublimate into the atmosphere.
It has a-an airtight seal on it pretty much. So it's-it's really that -- the hurry is to get it from the surface, once we've collected it and verified it's collected, into the instrument and seal that instrument within 30 minutes.
Miles O'Brien:
Okay. And does it pass through a liquid stage inside that oven once it's sealed up?
Peter Smith:
Only if the oven goes above, uh -- yes, actually, it probably does go through a liquid stage. As we heat the oven up above zero, uh, it will liquefy because the pressure is high enough. But remember, the boiling point of water on Mars at-at this pressure is four degrees Centigrade. So there's only a few degrees in which that-that material can go from ice to liquid and then to gas.
Miles O'Brien:
Okay. And I'm sorry to ask this question, but everybody keeps asking me. What's with the names? Where are they all coming from?
Peter Smith:
[laughs] Well, we wanted names that, uh, we could have a little fun with and that even-even our, uh, students would -- you know, elementary school students would enjoy. And so we went with, uh, a fairytale theme. And, uh, and childhood stories, like, uh, Alice in Wonderland and, of course, uh, uh, nursery rhymes, like, uh, Humpty Dumpty and those sort of things.
And-and it's really been kind of a lot of fun to have this set of names. Other suggestions might have been, say, polar explorers. And of course, school children wouldn't have ever heard of these people. And there's be a lot of names, uh, that are unrecognizable to most people.
Miles O'Brien:
So this is not a reflection of the bedside reading for the scientists on the program? [laughter] Uh, is-is it named Goldilocks because it's a just-right trench? Or is that --
Peter Smith:
[laughs] This is once upon a time land we're in. And we-we-we certainly named Wonderland because we're -- we really wonder what's under that surface over there and that polygon. And it's, I think, very well named.
Mark Lemmon:
This is the bedtime reading for those of us who have one and a half year old daughters at home. [laughter]
Miles O'Brien:
Uh, uh, one more thing, have you -- have you cleared up the-the memory issues?
Peter Smith:
Uh, that's a good question for-for, uh, Barry Goldstein, our project manager.
Jane Platt:
Miles, why don't we do this, because we have a lot of people waiting for the --
Miles O'Brien:
Okay. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. [crosstalk]
Jane Platt:
That's okay. We'll catch up with you on the next round, and we will make sure that Barry does, uh, get that --
Miles O'Brien:
Okay.
Jane Platt:
Just put yourself back in the queue, and we'll get that answered for you.
Miles O'Brien:
Great. Thanks. Bye.
Jane Platt:
Okay. Thank you. All right. Next, we have Alan Fischer of the Tucson Citizen.
Alan Fischer:
Uh, good morning. This question is for Peter. Uh, it-it concerns the TEGA ovens. Peter, could you tell me, what is the status of the -- of the testing in-in oven number four? And also, do you have a schedule set up when we-we would expect to see new materials sent to both TEGA and to the MECA optical microscope and the, uh, atomic force microscope?
Peter Smith:
Well, uh, Alan, this is a little bit of a tricky question. Uh, oven number four has, uh, endured a-a couple of delays because of some of the, uh, software difficulties we've had with the spacecraft. Those difficulties are now in a-a -- kind of a-a recovery mode, shall we say. They're well understood, and-and we're trying to get out of those difficulties.
Uh, the final stage of the-the TEGA run in oven number four, it may come down today. It may come down tomorrow. Since I haven't seen the downlink today, I'm not sure if we've received it yet. And then, there's several days, uh, of course, for interpretation before we could announce, uh, with confidence what we've actually seen from those ovens.
Uh, we are opening the doors for oven number five. And as, uh, Ray pointed out, we're-we're gathering samples today to put into oven number five. And I don't exactly know whether that'll be tomorrow or the next or the day after until we actually see if we've acquired that sample yet.
So w-we're trying to get, uh, information out as rapidly as possible, Alan. So as soon as we know anything here and are confident that we can stand behind a statement about what we're saying, you will know about it.
Alan Fischer:
So we a -- we are moving ahead with-with, uh, oven number five and also with-with MECA instrument testing with-with the, uh, uh, digging that Ray described today, correct?
Peter Smith:
That's certainly true. And, uh, we will be delivering to the optical microscope from this new region, the-the Wonderland region, and to TEGA oven number five. And we're preparing our first wet chemistry cell to receive that same sample.
Alan Fischer:
Great. Thank you very much, Peter.
Jane Platt:
Okay. The next question comes from Craig Covault of Aviation Week.
Craig Covault:
Yeah. Hi. Can you hear me okay?
Jane Platt:
Yes. Definitely. Hello.
Craig Covault:
Well, first a follow on that last question. Uh, Peter, that -- will this next sample going into TEGA and MECA be ice or soil?
Peter Smith:
Yes. We're-we're starting with surface samples. And the reason is, I mean, obviously, we'd all like to-to go straight to ice. But we're not prepared yet to go to the ice. Uh, and the reason is we have to use the scraper first. And that's not been tried yet on Mars. And then, we have to use the rasp. And that's also not be t -- been tried on Mars.
And so we would like to take our time and-and really be sure that these, uh, uh, remote control sequences are fully verified and validated before we go to the step of trying to deliver ice to an oven. And we're also using the new sprinkle method, if you remember, delivering samples because the soil is so sticky and clumpy. And we haven't done that yet with TEGA or with, uh, the wet chemistry cells.
So we really feel we need a slow, deliberate process to make sure that when we go for the-the pay dirt, that icy soil down at the bottom of the trench, that, uh, we're fully prepared to do it properly.
Craig Covault:
Okay. Thanks.
Jane Platt:
All right. And the next question, Leo Enright from Irish Television.
Leo Enright:
Thanks, Jane. Uh, this one's for Peter Smith. Just to -- really to do with the huge public interest in this, uh, discovery. There's a-a large public event at the Blackrock Castle Observatory in Cork, uh, this evening. It's evening in Europe. And they're actually listening to this, uh, uh, this teleconference. What could you say to people in Ireland, and of course elsewhere in the world, about what this discovery means to you and to the future of Mars exploration?
Peter Smith:
Well, uh, to me personally, it's-it's such a thrill to find ice under our Lander. You know, I've been asked over and over for the last six years, "What are you going to do if you land and don't find any ice?" And-and I've had very good answers to that question. But I've always hoped in my heart that I never had to deal with that situation. And now, we know for sure that we are on an icy surface, and we can really meet the-the science goals of our mission that -- at the -- at the highest level.
And I am just sitting on the edge of my chair, really, waiting to find out what the TEGA and MECA can tell us about these soils. Because the-the truth that we're looking for is not in just looking at soil or looking at ice, it's in finding out the minerals, the chemistry and, hopefully, the organic material that's associated with these levels -- or these layers. Excuse me. And I really encourage people, uh, in Ireland and other places around the world to stay with us because it's going to take a few weeks for us to get down to, uh, answering those big questions.
Jane Platt:
Okay. We're going to take a question now from Florida Today, Patrick Peterson. Hello, Patrick.
Patrick Peterson:
Hi. How are you?
Jane Platt:
Good.
Patrick Peterson:
Uh, I am wondering -- now, you don't really have any scientific data yet to prove that this is ice. Is there any possibility that it could be, uh, Co2 ice? And, uh, how -- at what level, at what likelihood is there that this ice would exi-exist ever in a liquid form on Mars at some point in its lifecycle?
Mark Lemmon:
Yeah. This is Mark. And I'll say that we've thought of, uh, many possibilities for what this material could be. And we've, uh, been debating this since we first exposed the bright material -- we first saw the black images under the, uh, Lander. Uh, we can easily and confidently rule out that it's carbon dioxide ice. There are certainly times of the year in this location where there would be carbon dioxide ice.
But with the temperatures that we are measuring there on Mars, this would be the equivalent of having water ice on, uh, something like a 140-degree day on Earth. It's not going to be there very long. It wouldn't have been there long enough for us to take its picture. Uh, and certainly, it would not have, uh, lasted the night, like we saw some of these particles do.
So we're very confident this is not carbon dioxide ice. Uh, we are ruling out things like salt just on the grounds that it does disappear. Salts will not disappear like that. Uh, you know, you could think of something on the spectrum from salty water to damp salt. And we know that the water content had to be very high in this case.
Uh, so we'll be very interested to see what's mixed in. But I think we're confident now, this is ice. We've-we've hit what we're looking for. And now, the job is to find out what is mixed in with that ice? How much salt is there? How many organics are there? Uh, and these are the things we will definitely need TEGA and MECA to, uh -- to solve.
Patrick Peterson:
Thank you.
Jane Platt:
We go now to Murray Jacobson of the NewsHour with Jim Lehrer.
Murray Jacobson:
Hi. Thank you for the news conference. Uh, I was wondering if Peter could expand on this basic idea of, now that you know you have ice, and you have confirmation of it, what does that begin to tell you? And what are you hoping it will tell you?
Peter Smith:
Well, the-the first thing it tells us is that the Odyssey scientists and the people that modeled, uh, the depth to-to, uh -- from dry soil to ice layer were correct. So we're able to verify those predictions and those discoveries with a lot of confidence now. Uh, the other thing is we are finding that the soil above the ice has unusual properties, at least, uh, properties we weren't expecting.
And it's clumpy and sticky and clearly has some sort of, uh, interesting properties that we hope to be able to unravel and tell you why it's clumpy and sticky. Uh, perhaps, there's salts or some sort of -- I don't know -- altered minerals, altered by the action of water that is, perhaps carbonates or sulfates or something of that nature. So it's really the-the-the modern history of these northern plains that we're here to unravel.
And by looking at those soils and-and understanding how minerals that are in the soils could have formed under the action of little liquid water, that is going to tell us that liquid water has been at this location, and that, perhaps, this is a habitable zone. So really, we are beginning our science investigation around the-the presence of ice in this region.
And it-it -- to me, when I look out over this kind of flat plain of-of rock and dirt, [laughs] frankly, it's just dirt. Uh, it's just amazing that what we're really looking at, if you were to get a big broom and sweep this area off, is we're on an ice sheet. And to me, that's quite remarkable.
And the fact that this ice sheet extends over, uh, almost 20 or 25 percent of the planet inside of the arctic, uh, circle and the antarctic circle, that is just a remarkable thing. And it's, uh -- it's just a pleasure to be able to verify that that's the case now.
Murray Jacobson:
Thank you.
Jane Platt:
Okay. Next question is from [Clay Armasco] with, uh, SPACE.com.
[Clay Armasco]:
Hi. Uh, I'm wondering if you can just clarify exactly how deep under the surface were the ice crumbs? And were they, uh, deeper or closer to the surface than you were expecting based on Odyssey observations?
Mark Lemmon:
This is Mark again. Uh, we are looking at both trenches, uh, basically right now five centimeters deep, about two inches deep. And that's right in the middle of the range of what we had predicted before we landed, uh, from the Odyssey observation. So, uh, I think it is right on expectations so far.
[Clay Armasco]:
Thanks.
Jane Platt:
Okay. We're going to take our next question from David Brown at the Washington Post.
David Brown:
Yeah, thank you. Uh, I'm wondering if there are any, uh, sort of inferences you can draw, not with the confidence that you're concluding that this is ice, but the fact that [uh, that] this sublimated and-and you think it's water ice. You're sure it is. Does it tell you anything about its salt content or how pure the water is? Or -- are -- I mean, does-does it tell you anything or hints of anything other than the fact that, yes, we're sure this is ice?
Peter Smith:
Well, when you look -- this is Peter. When you look at those, uh, uh, images side by side of Sol 20 to Sol 24, if it were say, uh, the -- half of that white material was salt, you would see a little pile of salt left behind and, you know, deposited after the water evaporated. So I think we can say with a fair amount of confidence that it's very pure water with some, uh -- well, hopefully, some impurities in it that give us a clue as to its, uh -- its history.
Uh, clearly, we know that water ice is made of two hydrogens and an oxygen. And so that's not a big discovery. But it's those impurities associated that are going to give us, uh, uh, the scientific, uh, results that we're looking for. I think, uh, there's not a lot of impurities in that ice from what I say. Mark, do you have a different interpretation?
Mark Lemmon:
Yeah. This is Mark. Uh, I'll second what Peter said. Uh, there do not appear to be a lot of impurities left behind. Uh, there certainly could have been a fine grain powder that blew away. Uh, but there's very little left of these particles, uh, at the end of a few days.
We do have people on the team looking at this and trying to understand exactly how fast things are going away from the Sol 20, 21 and 24, uh, data. So we have at least limited information. But I think it will be quite a while before we even have informed speculation based on that data. Uh, the real answer, obviously, is going to come from, uh, TEGA and MECA.
David Brown:
Okay. Thanks.
Jane Platt:
All right. Next, we got to Ken [Cramer] of Spaceflight.
Ken [Cramer]:
Uh, great. Thank you. I have a question actually on this -- I have a suggestion. I wonder if you might be able to pick up a few of these chunks, put them on the Lander deck and monitor them, you know, often with pictures to then see how they melt and if that would give you an idea about the relative composition or the relative amount of the ice in the soil?
Peter Smith:
Well, this is Peter. Uh, that's certainly a good suggestion and something we've thought of is to, uh, put, uh, some of these chunks in kind of a controlled location where there's a clean surface underneath. And we can see exactly what's left. But it's-it's difficult to control this experiment, uh, in the way that you're like to in a laboratory because we can't weigh the material before and after.
And that would give us a very accurate measurement. So that would be a very crude way to-to proceed. And, uh -- but it would be hard to interpret at the end, I'm afraid. I think, uh, our TEGA instrument is specially designed for doing a controlled experiment where we really do know what's happening before and after. And I think that's our best way right now.
Jane Platt:
All right. The next question is Jonathan Grupper of NOVA. Jonathan?
Jonathan Grupper:
Uh, congratulations to the team. Uh, and, uh, I'm curious if today's discovery sheds any light on the mystery of the clumpy soil. Uh, and, uh, if not, if there's been any progress made on that front?
Peter Smith:
Well, uh, knowing that this is ice down here, uh, allows you to speculate that if the ice melted, it could have put some salts and-and interesting minerals into that soil and caused it to be clumpy. And there are speculations within our science team that there's certain salts that, uh, mixed with, uh, ice can actually melt at very low temperatures, the -- even down to -50.
And so it's, uh, very tempting to get a sample of that material into the-the MECA wet chemistry instrument and try and see if those are, in fact, the salts that are in the soil. But right now, we have some speculations but no real interpretation, uh, is-is available yet.
Jonathan Grupper:
Thanks.
Jane Platt:
Okay. All right. And the next question will come from the Christian Science Monitor and Pete Spotts. Hello, Pete.
Pete Spotts:
Uh, hello. And thanks for doing this. Uh, sort of following up on, uh, Mr. Perlman here, I'm looking up at the, uh -- the far end, uh, with the two humps of, uh -- the-the two dirt piles of, uh -- of, uh, Snow White 1 and 2. And, uh, uh, I realize you folks are busy on all sorts of interpretations. But is anybody kind of given thought to that sandwich looking, uh, formation? And it looks like there's a-a-a coarser, dark layer sandwich between two light, finer layers. Uh --
Mark Lemmon:
Yeah. This is Mark.
Pete Spotts:
Yeah.
Mark Lemmon:
Uh, I'll-I'll, uh, give you my answers, since Ray has had to leave us, uh, because of his tactical responsibilities. We just received a -- or are receiving a downlink. And that's something that we're looking at very closely. We've got many people on the team interested in it. Uh, it's very similar in -- to the structure that we saw on the other side as well.
There are certainly some things that the Robotic Arm can do to the trench, especially in that back wall where it leaves behind, uh, some artifacts. Although, we've seen this, uh, repeatedly enough that we think that, in-in that par-particular image, you're seeing a mix of, uh, a real variations, uh, where there are dark tones and light tones just like we saw in the other trench. And of course, uh, if you look closely, you can certainly see some-some prints that the, uh, weight of the scoop left behind.
Pete Spotts:
So the jury's out?
Mark Lemmon:
So I think, yeah. The jury's out. We-we've got several people very interested in that very question, but we don't have an answer for it yet.
Pete Spotts:
Okay. Thanks.
Jane Platt:
Okay. We're going to go to KSAZ Phoenix and Keith Yaskin. Keith?
Keith Yaskin:
Hey, Peter. It's, uh, Keith Yaskin at Fox here in Phoenix.
Jane Platt:
Sorry about the mispronunciation.
Keith Yaskin:
It's okay. Uh, Peter, how surprised are you that, uh, you have found in this stage of the ballgame? And how long before you're going to call us all up and tell us you can declare for sure that this planet is habitable for life?
Peter Smith:
[laughs] You-you want a timeline for discovery here?
Keith Yaskin:
I would.
Peter Smith:
[laughs] Well, I-I wish I had one for you. Uh, we have promised, in our proposal and among ourselves, that we will have the answers by the end of August. But of course, all of us are hoping we'll have it sooner. Uh, there's a-a number of steps here. We-we suspect if there's organic materials, they're probably at a very low level and, therefore, easily, uh, uh, hard to distinguish from either contamination or astroidal deliveries or, you know, other kinds of ways that, uh, organics can get into our sample.
And, uh, in order to be sure of these things, we will have to test our background levels, obviously a measurement is made w -- against a background of some sort. Uh, and we'll compare the Martian, uh, organic levels to those in a blank that we brought with us, an organic-free material. So that's going to take some extra time to evaluate those measurements.
So I-I truly believe we will have answers for you by the end of the summer and hopefully sooner. And I wish I could give you a better timeline. But that's-that's what we've agreed to do.
Keith Yaskin:
Are you surprised that you found ice this fast? Or is this about when you expected to find it?
Peter Smith:
Well, I was very surprised that the thrusters, uh, were -- turned out to be our best digging tool and our best brush for cleaning off this ice layer. And really, I'm quite surprised to see that. I-I'd hoped, at the bottom of a thruster pit, we might see some hint of a -- of a flat surface.
I never thought we'd see what looks like almost a billiard table underneath the Lander that's been completely swept clean. And the ice is so visible to us. That was quite a surprise and told us right away that, if that were ice, we would be finding it about, uh, five or six centimeters. So yeah, that was a surprise.
Keith Yaskin:
Thank you.
Mark Lemmon:
And I'll add to that too. Uh, it was a surprise to see something so bright and shiny. It's still, you know, dark compared to freshly fallen snow. But it's, uh, much brighter than the soil on Mars. And in a lot of places where you see dirty ice, it blends in with the soil reasonably well. So this is not, uh, not nearly so dirty as that.
Keith Yaskin:
Thank you.
Jane Platt:
Next question, we'll take from Sally [Rail] at the Planetary Report. Sally, are you with us?
Sally Rayl:
I'm there. Can you hear me?
Jane Platt:
Yes, we can now.
Sally Rayl:
Great. Uh, I have a question for Barry and then a follow on for Peter and Mark. That might be easier. Can you hear me better this way?
Jane Platt:
Yeah. That's great.
Sally Rayl:
Okay. Great. Uh, for Barry, w -- can you explain more about what happened on Tuesday? I understand that, uh, the spacecraft was duplicating file maintenance data. But can you expound more on what you know?
Barry Goldstein:
Absolutely. Uh, the forgotten man here. Uh --
Sally Rayl:
I didn't forget you.
Barry Goldstein:
[crosstalk] It's a great dis -- great discovery. I'd rather focus on that. But I will tell you that we do have that situation under control. It's difficult to, uh -- to explain the details of what happened because it was really a-a, uh, very delicate interaction between two problems, one of which we knew about and one of which we discovered was a consequence of the first problem.
And what had happened is, due to an issue we had in keeping the sequence counters aligned correctly across the boundaries when we put the spacecraft, uh, into a sleep mode and then wake it up again, uh, there was another issue that cropped up that, uh, basically forced the system into an infinite loop, where it was generating this high priority but, uh, usually small number of packets for engineering.
And so what ended up happening on Sol 22 was that we ended up generating over 45,000 of these high priority, uh, packets, which normally would be a small quantity and had ended up starving or basically occupying all of non-volatile memory or like a flash drive or a thumb drive that you use on your computer.
Since then, we found the, uh, second bug. The team is working right now on two patches, one path to complete the fix that we have identified, the other patch to f-fix the consequence of the, uh -- of the, uh, bug that we had known about. And we expect, by Monday or Tuesday, to be able to have that, uh, uplinked onto the spacecraft and have it fully operational.
Nevertheless, in the meantime, because we understand this issue quite well, we know that there is really very little restrictions on the science team for doing the science as exemplified by this great discovery, uh, while we were, uh, still resolving this issue. And so the only restriction that has been put on the science team relative to what they do operationally, is that they're -- any data they collect on a particular Sol has to be downlinked that particular Sol. And that allows a lot of flexibility within the way our payload operates.
Sally Rayl:
Great. Thank you. And then, for Peter and Mark, uh, this really is a big discovery. I mean, you are declaring ice today. And you both seem so nonchalant about this. Can you share with us some of your own emotions at this -- at this big discovery of finding ice?
Mark Lemmon:
Okay. Peter has signaled that I should go first. This is Mark. [laughter] Uh, I-I've [got to way] I-I am very excited about this. Uh, this is great. I am excited that we've been able to determine from the imaging data that we're going to get exactly what we went there to look for. Uh, so I-I share in the moment.
Uh, but I also kind of have to temper that some with the fact that, you know, there is water on Mars ther -- in the form of ice. There is ice on Mars. We went there knowing that. We went there to look for it. Uh, I think the big story is, uh, something that I treat as a little bit more personal to us perhaps.
But, uh, it's that we can reach out and touch it, that we can sample it and that we can use our instruments to, uh, taste it and smell it and each of the other things. Uh, so that's the thing that really excites me is that we can actually reach out and touch the ice on Mars now.
Sally Rayl:
Thank you. And Peter?
Peter Smith:
Uh, yes. I-I agree with that. Uh, one of our great fears was that we would see ice, for instance, under the Lander and the Arm wouldn't be able to reach it. [laughs] And to find it right within our digging area and to have the ability to reach to a top of a polygon and into the troughs in between them, where we expect the ice will have different character. At least, it does in polar regions on the Earth.
This is really, uh, beyond expectation and-and something wonderful. We thought we'd either land in the middle of a polygon or at the edge. But we didn't know we'd have both within reach. We though polygons would be much bigger. So I-I am absolutely overjoyed that we can make this, uh, statement that this is ice, based on imaging data.
Because, uh, I have spent a lot of my career building cameras very much like this, uh, Surface Stereo Imager. And, uh, it's, with a great deal of pride, that it's the camera that made this discovery and not one of the TEGA or MECA instruments.
Sally Rayl:
Thank you.
Jane Platt:
Okay. We're going to move on now to National Public Radio and David Kestenbaum.
David Kestenbaum:
Uh, you talked about wanting to, uh, see if there is a habitable zone, somewhere maybe with melted ice. What does this tell you about the possibility of that existing, uh, and where it might be?
Peter Smith:
Uh, well, just the-the fact that there's ice there doesn't tell you anything about whether it's habitable. Uh, obviously, you have pure ice and pure volcanic soils existing together. And there's no habitable zone at all. In other words, there's no food. [laughs]
And the ice may be always in a frozen state and with, uh -- with ice and no food, that's not a habitable zone. So right now, I-I can't say if this is or isn't or if this is more, uh, favorable or less favorable. I think, until we actually know the-the chemicals and minerals associated with the ice, that I-I can't really make any real statement.
David Kestenbaum:
What do you -- what do you mean by food?
Peter Smith:
Organic materials that -- kind of like what we eat, you know. Uh, we don't eat rocks. We have to have carbon chain materials, uh, that we ingest into our bodies to-to create new cells and to give us energy. So it's energy and building blocks that we're looking for. And building blocks being long-chain carbon molecules, like proteins or amino acids or, you know, the whole range of things that we eat, carbohydrates and fats and -- what's the other one? Proteins. Yeah. [laughs] That's what we eat, and that's what has to be there if you're going to -- if you're going to have a habitable zone on Mars.
Jane Platt:
Okay. The next question, and we do have a couple of first-time questions. And then, we'll move to some follow-up questions, what I call the bonus round. Uh, the next one comes from Maggie McKee at NewScientist. Hello, Maggie.
Maggie McKee:
Oh, hi. Uh, I was wondering, [other] -- a little bit more about, uh, the kinds of models that you might expect when you actually put this stuff into TEGA and MECA. Uh, for example, has the-the fact that the water ice seems to be so pure ruled out any models for maybe how much [Mars has tilted] in the past? Or-or is there anything you can say so far about, uh -- about that?
Peter Smith:
Well, uh, uh, this is Peter. You -- just by looking at the ice, uh, we didn't expect high concentrations of-of impurities. It's really the subtle things that we're looking for and always have been. So there's no way to tell from these images just how much salt is in the water.
If you took a chunk of frozen salt water and put it there, it would look -- do just the same thing. It's the -- the amount of salt in our oceans isn't enough to leave a pile of salt behind from a little piece like this. Uh, you would have to evaporate, you know, meters of salt water to do that. So, uh, really, uh, it's too soon to tell how much the impurities might be in there just for the fact that there's not huge concentrations.
Jane Platt:
Okay. We're going to take a question now from Keith Cowing at NASAWatch.com.
Keith Cowing:
Question for Peter, something he's probably familiar with. When I saw the first holes that were dug in where you could see the white stuff, I was thinking of digging holes in the permafrost at Devon Island. I'm sure you've had that joy. And at some point, if you're careful when you dig these, you can see that the ground -- the texture changes as you get closer and closer to the ice.
Coupling that in with the [triple] point of water, how things are on Mars and the fact that, in the Antarctic and other places, there are [criptoendolist], organisms which have managed to get inside of little grains of, uh, mineral that can actually survive. As you dig through this stuff, are you g -- somebody's got to be thinking the same thing I am. Is anybody guided by where these microhabitats might be in [pore] spaces as you go through?
Peter Smith:
Uh, yes. Uh, and, uh, when you talk about [cryptoendolists], I think you're talking about, uh, inside the surface of rocks. And there are some rocks in our vicinity. And-and I-I think, uh, at least half the scientists here are very curious to flip one over and see if there's, you know, uh, something living underneath it so to speak or if there's a salt concentration.
And, uh, our-our-our first and primary goal though is to get a surface sample and a sample right at the ice soil boundary. So we're-we're taking a path that we put in place, uh, several years ago. And so we're taking the -- kind of the slow, deliberate path. Start with meeting our project goals. Surface and near, uh, uh, the bottom of the, uh, ice -- or the top of the ice layer. Those are the two things we want first.
And then, after we start to understand that trench environment, from surface to ice, we'll be looking at other locations where people suspect, uh, there may be different habitat, uh, possibilities, for instance, under rocks.
Keith Cowing:
Okay. Well, just -- what I'm wondering is, just beneath that crust on the surface --
Peter Smith:
Yeah.
Keith Cowing:
Obviously, something is, uh, allowing the vapor pressure to be a certain level that it stays as ice. And somewhere between that and the surface is the point at which it could, momentarily or for a f -- short period of time, exist as liquid. Are you looking at the side of these trenches carefully? Are you trying to do a nice slice? Is that possible with that scoop?
Peter Smith:
We are looking at the sides of the trenches. And, uh, I think you can see as well as we-we can. Those are the images we're looking at too. And-and, uh, there are hints that there is layers in the soil. And the layers could be caused by, uh, as you said, uh, a wet soil evaporating and leaving a salty layer behind and changing the texture and the porosity and the -- and the, uh, chemistry of those soils.
Uh, we do notice that the upper layer seems to be cloddy. And, uh, that's caused by clumping. Some kind of mineral is causing that, either that or a salt. And so, uh, uh, we suspect that our instruments -- uh, I think the greatest joy here is we brought the right instruments to answer these questions. And-and as we get these materials into the instruments and get our results, uh, refined and understood, these are just the kind of questions we're going to be able to answer for you.
Mark Lemmon:
And I'll just point out that-that when Peter organized the science team, uh, he created a biological potential [theme] group. And, uh, the people in that group have been, uh, asking similar questions and having that sort of discussion. So I-I think, uh, that line will be pursued as vigorously as we can pursue it.
Looking at the Dodo-Goldilocks trench, which we have up here on the screen, uh, I think, you know, there are four distinct layers in that end wall, uh, from the point of view of little colorations that we can see. And only the top one, uh, was probably influenced by our thrusters. But we're seeing some stuff underneath that, uh, something's going on. We need to investigate it.
Jane Platt:
Okay. Thanks, Mark, for that answer. And, uh, we are now, as I mentioned, in the bonus round. We're approaching the top of the hour. We can go a little bit over. Uh, we're -- if you do have a question, a follow up, uh, please press *1, so we can get you in the lineup. And we'll try to move through these questions. We're going to start with Alan Fischer of the Tucson Citizen. Alan.
Alan Fischer:
Uh, Peter, I wanted to clarify something. You said a moment ago that you would be, uh, working to get a surface sample in one of the ice sol -- at the ice sol -- soil boundary. Are we not going to be looking -- my understanding earlier was that you were going to determine the depth of the-the ice and then kind of break it up into segments. Are-are you just basically going for-for those two segments and then the ice itself now?
Peter Smith:
Alan, we've never proposed, uh, to be able to dig deeply into the ice layer. Uh, this is extremely hard material. This is ice that's at minus, uh, 80 or 80 Centigrade. And is as hard as a tabletop. So we will promise to be able to sample that ice, which we have a power tool, the rasp, that w-will allow that. And we promise, uh, to-to put the soil directly in contact with the ice into our wet chemistry cell.
Uh, we hadn't planned to put ice into the wet chemistry cell, since that adds water to the solution already. So additional water would-would not really make any difference. Uh, so those are the-the things we've planned to do. But we have a scraper with us. And we will try to, uh, you know, worry our way down through that ice, scraping away as-as a hoe -- like you would use a hoe in your garden.
But, uh, we can't promise we can get very far in that activity. Uh, there is a possibility that this ice layer is thin. And it may just be a layer. And we might actually be able to poke our way through it. But if it's a-a massive ice layer that, in other words, goes down several feet below the surface, th -- we'd have very little chance of digging very deep into that.
Alan Fischer:
Okay. Great. Thank you, sir.
Jane Platt:
All right. We're going to take a question from a first-time questioner actually, Jim King of the Times West Virginian. Jim.
Jim King:
Oh, hi. Uh, I have a question about water. Uh, uh, the wa -- uh, the ice that you found is at a shallow depth. And I would assume that the soil, uh, is porous enough to, uh, permit some sublimation to occur even, uh, you know, at-at that level. Uh, is, uh -- how long has the ice, do you estimate, uh, resided in-in the soil?
Uh, and then, a s -- uh, a sim -- a related question, uh, some of the rocks appear to be kind of smooth on the edges. And it's seems to me, similar to what I've seen in dry ice in a box that's, uh, sublimating. Is it possible that some of the rocks are actually ice?
Peter Smith:
Uh, I think that's not possible, uh, to answer your last question first. This is Peter. Uh, ice on the surface is not stable in the summer. Uh, the temperatures get too warm. And it's just going to sublimate away at a pretty quick rate. So it's very unlikely that any of the rocks you see are actually ice. Uh, the -- you asked how old this surface is.
It's fairly young, we think. At -- and that young in geologic terms that is, and-and certainly on the level of hundreds of thousands to millions of years, this would be a-a young surface. And the, uh -- the surface soil is porous. And the water vapor in the atmosphere is able to diffuse it's way down through the soil and freeze out at-at a level at which the temperature reaches the frost point.
That-that temperature is somewhere around 195 to 200 Kelvin. And, uh, so as soon as water vapor diffusing through the soil reaches that temperature, it starts to freeze out. And that's why you have a dry layer above an ice layer. Uh, anything above that layer, uh, doesn't freeze out and stays in the vapor form. So the soil tends to be pretty transparent to the atmosphere.
Jim King:
If I could f -- uh, ask a second question, uh, quickly. Uh, uh, is there a, uh, a depth at which, uh, the water at the site would, uh, actually be in a liquid state? At --
Peter Smith:
Not at -- uh, yeah. That's a good question. And that's certainly one of our goals is to find that out. At this time, we are in a cycle of Martian climate change that probably does not allow liquid water to be in this location. However, because the Martian polar axis is unstable in its pointing. Uh, our Earth is very stable because of our large moon. But Mars doesn't have a large moon.
And-and its polar axis is unstable. And it changes the tilt, relative to its orbital plane, by quite large amounts over time. So we think that a few million -- or maybe a million years ago, there was quite a much greater tilt of the axis and therefore the polar region is pointed more towards the sun in the summer. And at that time, there could have been much warmer temperatures and the possibility for liquid water in this area.
Jane Platt:
Okay. We're going to move on now to David Brown of the Washington Post.
David Brown:
Yeah. Thanks. Uh, you know, there's been speculation that there's water on Mars for, you know, hundreds of years. And there's been inferences drawn from various, you know, surface contours, uh, that led to the conclusions that there was ice and water. I-I guess my question is, does this prove it incontrovertibly?
Or are there some people who would, uh, uh -- you expect are going to argue with this? Or does it require some [civil] confirmation to, uh, you know, actual molecular analysis through the TEGA oven? Or can we say that, today, you're announcing absolute scientific proof that water, H2O, exists on Mars. And it's never been able to say that before?
Peter Smith:
Well, [laughs] this is a little tricky question because, uh, scientists argue about everything you can imagine. And there are different opinions that can be formed. And there may be other substances that, uh, can evaporate or sublimate this quickly that aren't ice. But remember, we are not, uh, first to talk about ice at this region.
We are following up on a discovery by Odyssey scientists that there is a tremendous amount of hydrogen underneath the soil in this region. And the question was, could it have been in some other form but water? And I think what we're saying is, uh, no. This is -- this is water ice. And as you predicted, it's right where you said it would be.
Therefore, it gives uh, uh, that extra amount of confidence that the Odyssey scientists really did make a discovery of water ice underneath the surface at this location. So are there other interpretations? Well, I guess you could imagine, uh, petroleum products underneath the ice layer. But, uh, [laughs] I don't know how else you get so much hydrogen under the surface that-that sublimates at just the temperature ice would sublimate without having ice.
Jane Platt:
Okay. We're going to go now back to San Francisco with Dave Perlman.
Dave Perlman:
Yeah. Peter, uh, thanks. Uh, Odyssey had determined or, uh, indicated that there was this vast, icy, perhaps a paleo-ocean of some sort now in frozen form. Is there any way of determining the age of this ice, uh, either as possible water or something like that, which would give you an indication of when the area might have been an actual ocean and, therefore, obviously, habitable, assuming there was organic material present?
Uh, or is that something that you have to just calculate by virtue of what you can tell about the tilting of the axis of the planet?
Peter Smith:
Well, you know, the Phoenix mission has limits.
Dave Perlman:
Yeah.
Peter Smith:
We're not going to answer every question you can imagine to ask about this ice. It's, uh -- remember, we're landing on the, uh -- on a part of the planet that's right near a crater. And we're in material that came out of that crater. And that crater's probably fairly recent, maybe 10 million years. I don't know exactly. You can't really tell with craters. They don't come with labels.
But it-it's a fairly recent cr-crater and sharply, uh, formed in its features. So it's not an ancient crater. And so the material we've landed on came out of that crater and flowed across the surface. You can see flow marks in it. So this is not ancient terrain as the way it was laid down four billion years ago.
So we're not going to be able to talk much about an ocean bed or anything of that sort. Uh, we're really not, uh, uh, set up to answer those sort of questions and particularly about age. Uh, that would be requiring instruments we didn't bring along.
Jane Platt:
Okay. We're going to move now to Craig Covault of Aviation Week.
Craig Covault:
Uh, thanks. My question was asked.
Jane Platt:
Oh, great. Okay. Peter Spotts of the Christian Science Monitor.
Peter Spotts:
Yeah. Thanks. This is for Peter. Uh, uh, you mentioned a-a while ago that, uh, in-in passing, that the characteristics of ice, uh, on these -- in these polygon forms, uh, on-on Earth are somewhat different between the boundaries and, you know, sort of the table top, if you will. Uh, could you elaborate on what are some of the differences? And-and what, perhaps, do they imply, at least on Earth, for the kind of different, uh, I don't know, microenvironments or whatever that might be underneath [them]?
Peter Smith:
Well, there's-there's cer-certain things we observe in the [Wonder], we still had pictures from the high-rise telescope. And we can see that the-the trough, these low areas in between the-the humped, uh, sections of the polygon, are-are bright. And it forms kind of a-a lacework of patterns. In other words, the-they don't get treated equally throughout the winter season.
And we also know, on the Earth, that as the-the, uh, ice layer expands and contracts, when it contracts, it forms cracks. And in a dry place like, uh, the Mars polar region, one would expect that dust is blowing into those cracks. And when it tries to expand back to where it was, it can't get there. And year by year, you get soil -- or dust, I should say, forming particularly in the trough regions and not so much in the polygon regions, uh, or the humped regions of the polygon.
So there's different processes at work in the trough than in the centers. And we think, uh, the soil is probably better developed on the top of the trou -- on the top of the polygon, at the [hummicky] areas. And, uh, it may be more wind blown dust into the trough areas.
So we're going to look at those, uh, throughout the summer as we're examining kind of the, uh -- as we sweep back the soil above the ice and look underneath to see the differences, there's some hint of a different over in the Dodo-Goldilocks trench where you see ice up at highest region. And, uh, it's harder to find down in the lower part of the trench, which is getting toward the trough.
Mark Lemmon:
And I'll add that, uh, we certainly have something very interesting along those lines right in front of us. We have two trenches, one more in the trough, one more in the center of the polygon. We've hit a hard layer in each of the trenches. Uh, we've got bright stuff in the Dodo-Goldilocks trench that also has, uh -- the camera can see infrared light.
And we see a signature that is consistent with water but that's also consistent with a lot of other things, uh, hydrated salts or hydrated minerals, which is why that didn't lead up to declare any sort of discovery. Uh, looking over at the hard surface in the Snow White trench, uh, it does not have that bright white appearance to it.
And so far, we haven't seen anything that stands out, uh, in the infrared light, uh, in a similar way to the Dodo-Goldilocks trench. But we've got, uh, hard layers that are different. And I think we're going to learn a lot from those differences.
Jane Platt:
All right. We've got a couple of questions remaining. We're going to go now to Ken [Cramer] of Spaceflight.
Ken Kremer:
Thank you. Uh, for Peter, I wonder if he could, uh, describe, uh, what time yesterday, I guess it was, did you learn about the discovery? Uh, who were you with? Uh, how did you celebrate? Anybody have to get woken up at 3:00 in the morning? [laughter]
Peter Smith:
No. This was, uh -- this was around 11:00 to 12:00 local time. And, uh, we were having our end of Sol meeting. And, uh, Mark, uh, came rushing over with, uh, his computer towed along behind him. And-and flopped it down to show us this [blink] movie he'd made with the Sol 20, 24 pictures. And, uh, it was just so incredibly convincing that these little ice particles were there on the 20th and gone on the 24th, that there was no argument to be made anymore.
And we all kind of just, uh, applauded, I think, is what happened. We -- it wasn't quite the celebration you'd imagine. And I'm not sure why. I think people were kind of being, uh, pulled towards this conclusion already. And it was just like the final nail on the c -- in the, uh -- in the -- in the evidence there.
Mark Lemmon:
Yeah. I think we were really sort of expecting to see this. So as soon as the downlink started flowing. This was the second downlink in our planning process. So we'd already planned the day's activities. But we started getting these extra images down. And, you know, literally, while the data were still coming down, we had enough in front of us to say that there were some significant changes.
And then, uh, as Peter said, it was a little bit later that we had this movie up there and could see how extensive the changes were. So it was exciting. But, uh, frankly, we just moved on with the rest of our day. [laughter]
Ken Kremer:
Thank you.
Jane Platt:
Okay. Just another day's work. And we're going to take a question now from the Planetary Report and Sally Rayl:
Sally Rayl:
Hi there. Hi. Can you hear me?
Jane Platt:
Oh, yes. Absolutely.
Sally Rayl:
I'm sorry. I keep punching the wrong buttons. I just have a really, uh, quick naming, uh, target name question. And that is, has Goldilocks totally done in the Bear family then? Does that -- do those targets no longer exist?
Mark Lemmon:
Uh, yeah. With Ray not here, I'll take my best stab at that. The-the Bear family are the names of the samples that we took out of the trenches. So they refer to the trench prior to the sample and to the actual dirt that was removed. And then, the, uh, miniature trench complex left behind is the-the Dodo-Goldilocks trench. Uh, but the-the Bear names refer to the stuff that's n-no longer in those trenches.
Sally [Rail]:
Okay. But the three Bears came from that combined trench?
Mark Lemmon:
Yeah.
Sally Rayl:
Thank you.
Jane Platt:
All right. And that's going to be our last question for the day. We've actually gone, uh, over our usual time. Uh, obviously, an interesting topic, a lot of good questions. I want to thank all our panelists for spending the time with us today. And did want to mention to all the reporters on the line that we will have a replay available for the next seven days on our replay line. The number is 1-800-873-2093. And for international callers, that's 203-369-3584.
Uh, it'll take just a little while to get that posted. And we should have the audio file up, posted online a bit later today. Over the weekend, if we have any updates on the news, that will be posted on our Web sites, including www.nasa.gov/phoenix and phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu. And of course, as usual, if you have any other, uh, questions or anything we can help you with, call JPL media relations at 818-354-5011. Or Sara Hammond at the University of Arizona, 520-626-1974. Thanks, everybody, and have a great weekend.
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