Return-Path: <nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov> Received: from literacy (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by literacy.nifl.gov (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id h85M0g711378; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 18:00:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 18:00:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <000e01c373f7$73c7dbe0$8c4cdc42@trudy> Errors-To: listowner@literacy.nifl.gov Reply-To: nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov Originator: nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov Sender: nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov Precedence: bulk From: "Ken Taber" <kentaber@inetgenesis.com> To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov> Subject: [NIFL-ESL:9428] RE: Illiteracy X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; Status: O Content-Length: 11334 Lines: 307 Good point, Varshna.. the bi-cultural/bilingual argument has now entered the discussion..it's kind of like a person with dual citizenship.. two cultures, two languages, in the same country can co-exist, or as the UK on the listserv call it.. multi-lingual/multi-cultural.. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Varshna Narumanchi-Jackson" <varshna@grandecom.net> To: "Multiple recipients of list" <nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov> Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 5:21 PM Subject: [NIFL-ESL:9425] RE: Illiteracy > Your point assumes that either the child or the family wants English to be > the "first" language. What is so great about having developed oracy in your > "second"/"family" language when it isn't backed up by literacy? > > Who wants to be an adult whose understanding of her "second"/"family" > language stopped at age 3? How do you converse with your parents, with your > grandparents (as has been my experience), with aunts, uncles, and other > relatives who are more comfortable speaking in the "family" language? What > do you do as an adult with children of your own when you can't pass on the > "family" language? How do they converse with the older generations? > > How is culture preserved when the language in which it was born is silenced? > > > > on 9/5/03 12:51 PM, Susan Ryan at susanefl@hotmail.com wrote: > > > The whole point is for a toddler age, English would be his first language! > > Although we have many languages spoken in the U.S., English is the defining > > language and children born into it should be first language speakers in > > English. The other lanuage (family language spoken) would be their second > > language. They will be bilingual in reverse of their parents' generation. > > Susan > > > > > >> From: "kate.diggins" <kate.diggins@slc.k12.ut.us> > >> Reply-To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov > >> To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov> > >> Subject: [NIFL-ESL:9421] RE: Illiteracy > >> Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 13:02:04 -0400 (EDT) > >> > >> On the other hand, childen need a rich first language. Without that, there > >> would be a lack of cognitive "hooks", metaphorically speaking, on which > >> to "hang" second language. > >> > >> > >> > >> ---------- Original Message ----------- > >> From: Gustav Kocsis <gkocsis@sfccnm.edu> > >> To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov> > >> Sent: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 10:19:51 -0400 (EDT) > >> Subject: [NIFL-ESL:9418] RE: Illiteracy > >> > >>> I so much agree. > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Susan Ryan [mailto:susanefl@hotmail.com] > >>> Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 8:02 AM > >>> To: Multiple recipients of list > >>> Subject: [NIFL-ESL:9417] RE: Illiteracy > >>> > >>> Sylvan, I found your information very interesting and surprising. I > >> would > >>> have thought to start English with the toddlers class would be the > >>> best way to create English fluency rather than waiitng until they > >>> start school and come to it as a foreign language speaker. Susan > >>> > >>>> From: "Sylvan Rainwater" <sylvan@cccchs.org> > >>>> Reply-To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov > >>>> To: Multiple recipients of list <nifl-esl@literacy.nifl.gov> > >>>> Subject: [NIFL-ESL:9401] RE: Illiteracy > >>>> Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 15:34:43 -0400 (EDT) > >>>> > >>>> Thanks for this excellent post. It is certainly true that when children > >>>> don't get good early education, they are at a disadvantage, regardless > >> of > >>>> what language they are trying to learn in. In the Head Start program I > >> work > >>>> with, it's sometimes interesting to compare the immigrant kids with the > >>>> Anglo kids here. The problems we are addressing are somewhat different, > >> but > >>>> with all kids (and the adults in our Family Literacy Program), we focus > >> on > >>>> literacy in developmentally appropriate ways. > >>>> > >>>> With the Pre-K children we work with, language development needs to be > >>>> primarily in the native language, gradually transitioning to more > >> English > >>>> as > >>>> time goes on. The 4-year-old classroom incorporates more English than > >> the > >>>> 3-year-old classroom. The Infant/Toddler classroom tries to be > >>>> predominantly > >>>> Spanish-speaking. A good solid grounding in native language development > >> is > >>>> the best foundation for learning English once children start school. > >>>> > >>>> With Anglo kids, obviously literacy and language development are > >> equally > >>>> critical, and sometimes just as difficult. We serve special needs > >> children, > >>>> too, of course, with various diagnoses of speech and/or developmental > >>>> delays, and that requires special creativity and techniques on the part > >> of > >>>> the teachers. We work with our Education Service District to get help > >> with > >>>> that. In addition, many of those kids are dealing with home situations > >> that > >>>> are absolutely horrendous -- drugs, abuse of all sorts, neglect, as > >> well as > >>>> basic illiteracy on several levels. All of that has to be addressed in > >> some > >>>> fashion, or nothing will change in the life of that child. You can > >> teach > >>>> them phonics all you want and send them off to kindergarten, and it > >> won't > >>>> help much. > >>>> > >>>> With adults, no matter what language they speak, if they haven't had a > >>>> thorough grounding in their native language -- in conversation, > >> grammar, > >>>> and/or literacy -- they are going to struggle with learning a new > >> language, > >>>> with basic job skills, and with figuring out how to teach their > >> children. > >>>> How can you ask a parent to read to a child, when the parent can't > >> read? > >>>> > >>>> I completely agree that adult literacy is a crucial issue in this > >> country, > >>>> and I continue to maintain that the single best way to improve the > >>>> education > >>>> of the children is to improve the education of the parents, especially > >> the > >>>> mother or primary caregiver. > >>>> > >>>> ------- > >>>> Sylvan Rainwater mailto:sylvan@cccchs.org > >>>> Program Managaer Family Literacy > >>>> Clackamas Co. Children's Commission / Head Start > >>>> Oregon City, OR USA > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: nifl-esl@nifl.gov [mailto:nifl-esl@nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Ken > >> Taber > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 5:49 PM > >>>> To: Multiple recipients of list > >>>> Subject: [NIFL-ESL:9390] Re: Accept English Only donation? > >>>> > >>>> Albert et al, > >>>> The Pew Hispanic Research identifies the problem that Adult ESL > >> Programs > >>>> face in this country. It also confirms that it is actually easier to > >> teach > >>>> the foreign-born K-12 student than it is the adult. These frustrations > >> lead > >>>> us to ask the ultimate question. How do we solve the problem? In fact, > >> the > >>>> same is true for the American in this country that does not get a good > >>>> early > >>>> education. Nationally, 22% of Americans are considered functionally > >>>> illiterate. That figure remains about the same. We used to have an > >>>> educational system that supported the industrial age where teaching > >> only > >>>> 80% > >>>> was acceptable. Now that we have entered the information age and their > >> are > >>>> less jobs in former industries, we must get near 100% literacy in this > >>>> country. And of those 22%, and in some cities, that figure is much > >> higher, > >>>> only 5% of those needing adult education services actually receive > >> them. > >>>> > >>>> The only answer the government has in more accountability but the > >> numbers > >>>> still have not changed. Even with a great title like the "No Child Left > >>>> Behind Act," we are losing the battle of adult literacy in this > >> country. > >>>> The > >>>> problem as was pointed out by some is adult literacy, and not just for > >> the > >>>> foreign-born, but for all Americans. There are American-born US > >> citizens > >>>> who > >>>> speak English only that are illiterate. We have become experts at > >> pointing > >>>> the finger. We have a lot of research. What we need are applicable > >>>> solutions. We know the problems, they have not changed. Our current > >>>> solutions have not work. > >>>> > >>>> I have made some observations that deal with what all teachers should > >> be > >>>> doing. Teachers need high expectations for all their students. Teachers > >>>> also > >>>> need to know the how best to teach the diversity of students in their > >>>> classroom. This requires staff development. Sometimes, it is simply the > >>>> case > >>>> of real research bang applied to an old problem. > >>>> > >>>> I actually had a principal from another school that told me that > >> "Research > >>>> shows that English-Only programs (for LEP students) were better." This > >> myth > >>>> has reached not only the some of the classrooms in my district but has > >>>> reached its administration as well. These principals were sold a bill > >> of > >>>> goods from the English-Only Movement and are calling it research. The > >> fact > >>>> is the federal law allows for almost any program that can show results. > >>>> However, it does not allow for an English Submersion Model, a sink or > >> swim > >>>> approach or dead end approach. > >>>> > >>>> There are some states that interpret the federal law to mean that they > >> can > >>>> run an English-Only Approach with no staff development of their > >> teachers. > >>>> When this principal made this comment, I asked whether this district > >> had an > >>>> English-Only Approach? The coordinator (with no ESOL training) who I > >> had > >>>> spoken to about the law said we have an Structured English Immersion > >>>> Approach which we didn't because this approach requires a highly > >> trained > >>>> staff. We may have had a Structured English Immersion Approach on paper > >> but > >>>> we had an English-Only or English Submersion Approach in reality. > >>>> > >>>> The SC State House tried to write a bill (H3703) last year limiting LEP > >>>> instruction to only the first two years foreign-born students arrive in > >>>> this > >>>> country and mandating a Sheltered English Immersion Approach. They > >> claimed > >>>> in their bill that English could be learned fast. Sheltered English > >>>> Immersion is perhaps the least recommended approach but also the least > >>>> costly. The only good part of the bill was that the state actually > >> realized > >>>> that it had a constitutional duty to teach these students. The bill > >> never > >>>> made it out of the SC House but it was interesting to see how > >> legislatures > >>>> don't understand the real problem or the legal history of LEP programs > >> but > >>>> most of all they do not understand that English-Only laws may be a > >> civil > >>>> rights violation in an educational setting. > >>>> > >>>> Ken Taber > >>>> kentaber@inetgenesis.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> _________________________________________________________________ > >>> Fast, faster, fastest: Upgrade to Cable or DSL today! > >>> https://broadband.msn.com > >> ------- End of Original Message ------- > >> > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Send and receive larger attachments with Hotmail Extra Storage. > > http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es > > > > >
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