PETER JENSEN: GOOD AFTERNOON, I AM A PRACTITIONER WHEN IT COMES TO THIS TOPIC OF TRAILS DEVELOPMENT. I'M ACTUALLY A TRAIL DESIGNER AND BUILDER. AND I'M ALSO A PARTICIPANT IN THE REGNEG PROCESS. I WAS ON THE COMMITTEE REPRESENTING THE APPALACHIAN TRAIL CONSERVANCY, AND THAT WAS AN EXCITING EXPERIENCE. I HAVE CONSTRUCTED A LOT OF COMPLIANT TRAILS IN NEW ENGLAND, USING THE PROPOSED GUIDELINES AS THEY WERE SET FORTH IN THE COMMITTEE'S FINAL REPORT IN 1999. I'M ALSO A UNIVERSAL TRAIL ASSESSMENT PROCESS TRAINED TRAINER. AND I HAVE ALSO DONE A NUMBER OF CONSULTING PROJECTS FOR EXAMPLE, NEW YORK DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION IN THEIR PROCESS FOR BRINGING SOME OF THEIR PARKS INTO COMPLIANCE. WHAT I WANTED TO DO TODAY, IS JUST TALK ABOUT SOME OF THESE PROJECTS, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE CONSTRUCTED A LOT OF TRAILS AS I MENTIONED, AND THEY -- WE HAVE USED THE PROPOSED GUIDELINES AND SO I WANTED TO SHARE SOME OF THE THOUGHTS THAT WE HAVE COME UP WITH ON THAT JUST TO HELP YOU HEAR FROM SOMEONE WHO HAS ACTUALLY USED THE GUIDELINES ON THE GROUND. SO I HAVE AN OVERVIEW OF A NUMBER OF THINGS THAT I WANTED TO TALK ABOUT. MORE TECHNICAL THINGS, LIKE GRADE SEGMENT TRANSITION ZONES.
I WANTED TO DISCUSS SURFACING COMMENTS, SIGNAGE, GUIDELINES FORMAT, AND THEN ALSO THE GUIDELINES USAGE. OVERALL I THINK THE ADVISORY NOTES IN THE PROPOSED RULE IS VERY HELPFUL. THEY HELP UNDERSTAND, PEOPLE UNDERSTAND MORE ABOUT WHAT THE GUIDELINES ARE ALL ABOUT. BUT I ALSO HAVE SOME PROPOSED ADDITIONS. AND THIS HAS TO SPECIFICALLY DO WITH THE GRADE SEGMENT TRANSITION ZONES, OKAY. AS YOU RECALL, IN THE GUIDELINES, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT YOU KNOW, SLOPES 0 TO 5 PERCENT YOU CAN GO ANY DISTANCE, 5 TO 8 AND A THIRD PERCENT UP TO 200 FEET. WHEN YOU GET TO THE HIGHER RANGES, WHAT I'M CONCERNED ABOUT IS, AND AGAIN, THERE IS ALSO THIS REST INTERVAL REQUIREMENT FOR SLOPES ABOVE THE 8 PERCENT. AND THIS IS WHERE I REALLY WANT TO FOCUS BECAUSE I DON'T THINK THOSE WORK REALLY WELL IN THAT WHEN YOU GO FROM A FOR EXAMPLE A 10 PERCENT GRADE AND THEN YOU ARE REQUIRED TO GO TO A REST INTERVAL OF 5 PERCENT OR LESS, YOU HAVE A FAIRLY SHARP TRANSITION. OKAY. AND YOU HAD SORT OF INDICATED THAT IN THE PROPOSED RULE.
BUT WHAT I'M THINKING IS THAT WHAT WE WANT TO LOOK AT IS A TRANSITION ZONE THAT TAKES YOU FROM SAY THAT 10 PERCENT GRADE TO THE 5 PERCENT GRADE SO THAT YOU HAVE AN ALLOWANCE TO GO THROUGH OTHER GRADES, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU COULD GO INTO THAT 8 AND A THIRD TO 10 PERCENT GRADE SEGMENT BEFORE YOU GET TO THE 5, AS OPPOSED TO JUST GOING FROM 10 RIGHT TO 5 OR LESS. SO THAT IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I WANTED TO PRESENT TO YOU. SO IT REDUCES THE ABRUPTNESS OR THE CHANGE IN SLOPE AND WOULD ALLOW FOR EXAMPLE I USE AN EXAMPLE 11 PERCENT GRADE SEGMENT WITH PASS INTO THE 8 AND 8.3 TO 10 PERCENT RANGE AND THEN TO THE 5 TO 8 AND 3, AND THEN GETTING TO THE 5 PERCENT OR LESS, WHICH IS THE REST INTERVAL. AND WHAT I'M SUGGESTING IS THAT THAT COULD OCCUR OVER, FOR EXAMPLE, A 60 INCH DISTANCE. ALL RIGHT. I WOULD REALLY LIKE TO SEE SOME KIND OF ALLOWANCE FOR THAT BECAUSE I THINK OVERALL, IT WOULD ALLOW FOR BETTER DESIGN AND BETTER FLOW, AND ALSO I THINK BETTER EXPERIENCE FOR THE TRAIL USER.
A COUPLE OF COMMENTS ON THE SURFACING. AGAIN, I THINK THE ADVISORY INFORMATION IS HELPFUL. I WILL ENCOURAGE YOU TO ADDRESS WEATHER CONDITIONS IN SOME FASHION. I THINK THAT YOU KNOW, THE DAY AFTER IT RAINS THE SURFACE IS GOING TO BE VERY DIFFERENT POTENTIALLY THAN IT IS YOU KNOW, AFTER A WEEK OF NO PRECIPITATION. I THINK THERE IS ALSO YOU KNOW, SEASONALITIES, YOU KNOW, LEAF FALL FOR THOSE THAT LIVE IN PLACES THAT HAVE LEAVES. YOU KNOW THAT IS GOING TO CHANGE THE SURFACE TO SOME EXTENT.
AND THEN ALSO AS THE SURFACE AGES, AND GRANTED THERE IS THIS WHOLE ISSUE OF MAINTENANCE OF THE TRAIL SURFACE.
HOWEVER, GIVEN THAT YOU KNOW, THE NUMBER OF MILES OF TRAIL THAT WILL ULTIMATELY BE OUT THERE, AND THEN THE REQUIREMENTS THAT YOU KNOW, ARE GOING TO BE PLACED ON MANAGERS TO ACTUALLY MAINTAIN THOSE SURFACES THAT CAN ALSO BECOME FAIRLY DAUNTING. SO IT HAS TO DO WITH EXPECTATIONS, I THINK.
ALSO, I'M INTERESTED IN RECOMMENDING ADDITIONAL METHODS FOR TESTING FIRMNESS AND STABILITY, AND YOU HAD ALLUDED TO THAT IN THE GUIDELINES AS WELL, AND I THINK THAT IS A GOOD ONE. YOU SUGGEST THE MOST COMMON USAGE OF THE ROTATIONAL PENETROMETER AS A WAY TO DO IT. BUT I THINK THAT IF YOU WERE ABLE TO SUGGEST OTHER METHODS AS WELL, I THINK THAT WOULD BE HELPFUL TO THE TRAIL COMMUNITY.
IN TERMS OF SIGNAGE, AGAIN, I AGREE WITH THE LAST PRESENTER, THAT THE INTERNATIONAL SYMBOL IT IS USED IN THE BUILT ENVIRONMENT AND HAS SET A STANDARD FOR THE BUILT ENVIRONMENT. AND IN THE OUTDOOR ENVIRONMENT I THINK IT IS JUST A WHOLE DIFFERENT TYPE OF EXPERIENCE AND WE NEED TO CONSIDER THAT. AND SO I THINK THAT SOME TYPE OF NEW SYMBOL IS NEEDED FOR TRAILS, SPECIFICALLY. WHAT THAT IS.
PHILIP PEARCE [BOARD MEMBER]: YOUR TIME IS ABOUT UP.
PETER JENSEN: OKAY IT NEEDS TO BE DIFFERENT FROM THE BUILT ENVIRONMENT AND IT ALSO NEEDS TO YOU KNOW, TAKE INTO PERHAPS SOME OF THESE REGIONAL DIFFERENCES IN ENVIRONMENT. GUIDELINES, FORMAT, JUST QUICKLY, ADVISORY STATEMENTS IN THE GUIDELINES ARE WELCOME AND USEFUL FOR INTERPRETATION. A DECISION TREE SIMILAR TO THE FOREST SERVICE GUIDELINES, I THINK THAT IS ALSO VERY USEFUL FOR PRACTITIONERS TO USE. AND JUST JUMPING AHEAD HERE, GUIDELINES FOR USAGE, I THINK THE GUIDELINES ARE GOING TO LEAD TO MUCH MORE STANDARD TRAIL DEVELOPMENT WHICH IS A REALLY GOOD THING, IT IS GOING TO BE BETTER FOR RESOURCES, PROTECTION OF RESOURCES AND SUCH. I THINK IT IS ALSO GOING TO SPUR SOME INNOVATION. YOU KNOW THE TECHNOLOGICAL CHANGES IN ADAPTIVE EQUIPMENT AND ALL OF THAT, IS SOMETHING ALSO TO CONSIDER. AND I THINK THERE IS ALSO AN ELEMENT OF TRUST. BECAUSE I'M A PRIVATE CONTRACTOR, I HAVE FRANKLY A LOT OF WORK RIGHT NOW. THERE IS A LOT OF INTEREST IN ACCESSIBLE TRAIL DEVELOPMENT OUT THERE. PARTICULARLY, FROM THE PRIVATE SECTOR. I HAVE CLIENTS THAT LIKE FOR EXAMPLE MASSACHUSETTS AUDUBON. THEY ARE COMMITTED TO HAVING CONVERSION OF SOME OF THEIR TRAILS ON THE LEAST ONE TRAIL IN EACH ONE OF THEIR SANTUARIES TO BECOME FULLY ACCESSIBLE TO COMPLY WITH THESE GUIDELINES SO I'M GOING TO STOP RIGHT THERE AND WE CAN COME BACK TO SOME OTHER COMMENTS.
PHILIP PEARCE: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, DENNIS A QUESTION?
DENIS PRATT [BOARD MEMBER]: YES, YOU MENTIONED THAT WE SHOULD BE LOOKING AT ANOTHER WAY OF MEASURING THE TRAIL SURFACE ACCESSIBILITY IN LIEU OF A ROTATIONAL PENETROMETER. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEAS THAT YOU WANT TO SHARE WITH US?
PETER JENSEN: I KNOW THERE IS A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT ENGINEERING TYPES OF METHODS FOR DETERMINING SOIL DENSITY AND SUCH. I HAVE NOT HAD THE TIME TO REALLY DEVOTE TO COMING UP WITH ANY OTHER IDEAS, I JUST THINK THAT YOU KNOW, HAVING A RANGE OF CHOICES IS ALWAYS A GOOD THING. SO THAT IS WHY I BRING THAT UP. I MEAN I HAVE USED THE ROTATIONAL PENETROMETER AND IT WORKS BUT I'M JUST SUGGESTING THAT THERE OUGHT TO BE ADDITIONAL METHODS TO TEST THAT.
DAVID PARK [DEPARTMENT OF INTERIOR LIAISON TO THE BOARD]: I HAD A QUESTION ON SOME OF YOUR EXPERIENCES AS YOU APPLIED THESE GUIDELINES OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS, OBVIOUSLY ONE OF THE BIGGEST ISSUES IN THE TRAILS STANDARDS, WAS THAT DECISION-MAKING PROCESS TO DETERMINE WHY WHETHER OR NOT THOSE CONDITIONAL DEPARTURES WOULD APPLY OR NOT IN GOING THROUGH THAT PROCESS TO DETERMINE WHERE YOU HAVE A CONDITIONAL DEPARTURE AND THEN ADDING ALL OF THOSE UP TOGETHER TO EVEN GET TO THE POINTS THAT YOU WHERE EXEMPT OUT OF HAVING TO MAKE TRAILS ACCESSIBLE. AND A LOT OF DISCUSSION HAS BEEN HAD OVER THE YEARS, AND EVEN IN SOME OF THE TRAINING PROGRAMS YOU HAVE DONE WITH US OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS ABOUT THAT PROCESS AS ONEROUS THAT PROCESS IS NOT OWNERS I'M INTERESTED IN THE EXPERIENCE THAT YOU HAVE HAD IS HOW ONEROUS HAVE YOU FOUND THAT PROCESS TO BE, AND HOW EFFECTIVE HAVE YOU FOUND THAT PROCESS TO BE.
PETER JENSEN: I THINK ONE ADVANTAGE THAT I HAVE HAD WAS THAT I WAS IN ON THE GROUND FLOOR IN TERMS OF DEVELOPING THE GUIDELINES SO I HAVE A PRETTY GOOD UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT THEY ARE, AND I THINK THAT REALLY IS THE KEY PIECE THERE, IS THAT UNDERSTANDING YOU KNOW, WHAT THE VARIOUS TECHNICAL REQUIREMENTS ARE AND THEN YOU KNOW, FRANKLY ALSO BE ABLE TO LOOK AT A LANDSCAPE AND SAY, YOU KNOW, THIS WILL WORK, OR IT WON'T WORK. BUT OBVIOUSLY, YOU ALSO HAVE TO APPLY EACH TECHNICAL PROVISION AND SAY, OKAY, YEAH, THERE ARE PLACES YOU KNOW, IN THIS PARTICULAR LOCATION, THIS REQUIREMENT WON'T WORK, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU KNOW, TREAD WIDTH. AND THAT IS A COMMON ONE, I THINK, BECAUSE OF THE DESIRE, PERHAPS, TO NOT HAVE TO REMOVE A LARGE BOULDER, OR A TREE, OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. BUT I THINK IN GENERAL, YOU KNOW, WITH PRACTICE, THEY GET LESS ONEROUS TO APPLY.
SO I THINK AGAIN, EARLIER COMMENTS ABOUT DOCUMENTATION ARE GOOD, AS WELL, IN THAT YOU KNOW, IF THERE IS AN AGAIN, A RANGE OF FORMATS FOR PEOPLE TO USE, BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE MORE COMFORTABLE WITH ONE FORMAT VERSUS ANOTHER.
DAVID PARK: AND ON THAT SAME LINE, ASSUMING THESE WERE ADOPTED TOMORROW, CAN YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT KIND OF TRAINING AND TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE WOULD BE NEEDED TO HELP PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT PROCESS BETTER?
PETER JENSEN: I THINK THAT THE TRAINING WILL HAVE TO BE PRETTY SUBSTANTIAL, YOU KNOW, NATIONWIDE, AND I THINK THE TRAINING NEEDS TO REACH BEYOND JUST YOU KNOW THE TRAIL COMMUNITY. I THINK WE NEED TO GET OUT TO, FOR EXAMPLE, THE LANDSCAPE ARCHITECTURE COMMUNITY, THE ENGINEERING COMMUNITY, YOU KNOW, THERE NEEDS TO BE A PRETTY BROAD RANGE OF PEOPLE THAT UNDERSTAND THIS INFORMATION. AND HOW TO APPLY IT FOR THIS TO REALLY WORK WELL.
DAVID PARK: THANK YOU.