Reply to:   [Focusing 382] Re: norms
Working with mandated students in GED class as well as previously in drug and alcohol rehab I have been interested in this dilemma for some time. Research on motivation has shown that the issue of voluntary vs. involuntary "particpation" matters less than what happens once a student is IN the placement situation (classroom or therapeutic envrinoment, for example). The turn around is internal but it can be self-motivated or due to external pressure. The critical key is what happens to engage the student once they are a "captive audience". Not that this is easy by any means....

Forgive me for not citing specific research. I will try to do some homework to back this up. MM

Melissa Monti, Ed.M.
Professional Development Coordinator
IU-13/SEPDC
Instructional Services Dept.
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"Those who can, do.  Those who believe others can also, teach." - John E. King 
Hal Beder wrote:

>

>Of course you are right.  Learners who participate in adult literacy >against their will have less motivation to "stick to business".  I >say "less" motivation rather than "no" motivation because we had at >least two court-mandated learners in the study who worked very hard >and made good progress.  In respect to young learners, the Center was >ideal in that the district had an alternative high school, and K-12 >students who were discipline problems were sent there rather than >being dumped into adult classes.  Also, the Center did have a >mandated welfare class but these learners had their own class and >were not mainstreamed into the classes we studied. Your posting >raises important policy questions.  In many ways the classes we >studied at the center were ideal, but as literacy professionals, >don't we deserve the ideal?

>

>

>

>At 10:46 AM 6/29/2006, you wrote:

>>I think it's a huge assumption to state "sticking to business comes

>>naturally for adult learners." That assumes that  that everyone that

>>enters an ABE program is an adult both in age, and attitude. The latter

>>being the key.  The assumption is that all the adult learners in an ABE

>>program WANT to be there and that's not always the case.  There is

>>nothing "natural" for the adult learner who is mandated by court or

>>other local, state or federal guidelines that require an ABE/GED course.

>>

>>

>>The program model you observed is an "ideal" for many of us, I would

>>hazard to say,especially for those of us who deal with younger students

>>just out of high school.   The key word you stressed below was

>>"voluntary;" great - what about those that aren't voluntary sitting in a

>>class with those who are? I have taught in Adult Education for 10 years

>>now, and the mixture is always there - those who want to be there vs

>>those who HAVE to be there. This makes "sticking to business" some days

>>next to impossible.  I can't throw students who don't stick to business

>>out of my class. I can ask that they be quiet, focus, try to work hard.

>>I can sit with them, etc. I can do many things to address the negative

>>behavior but it doesn't mean I can make the student "stick to business."

>>  Instructors are bound by both local and state regulations as to

>>discipline - at least here. We can have local policies in place but at

>>the same time, when everything is driven by FTE's and student

>>progression, EVERY student becomes critical to program success and

>>retaining those students who don't want to be there is as important as

>>retaining those studens who WANT to be there. In light of that, not

>>every class room is going to exemplify "sticking to business" as

>>highlighted in the article.  The "ideal" situation isn't what some of us

>>face day to day. The question really is how do you address the problem

>>to benefit all - those who want to be there, and those who HAVE to be

>>there.  ( I think this is also what happens in meetings etc, which Janet

>>asked about.  Those that want to be there are ready to get to work, get

>>it done and get back to business - those that have to be there, want to

>>talk about their trips to the beach, their families, the weekend etc -

>>anything to avoid what they didn't want to deal with in the first

>>place.)

>>

>>Additionally, there is a time and place for building social skills and

>>teamwork through discourse in the adult classroom setting. Not all

>>instruction occurs via a text, a worksheet or a math problem to be

>>solved.  Some skills such as getting along with others, expressing

>>diverse view points, and listening to diverse view points can only be

>>learned when you don't strictly, "stick to business" but go beyond the

>>"business" of getting a GED And into the "business" of building a more

>>successful student in a wholistic manner.

>>

>>Regards

>>Katrina Hinson

>>

>>

>> >>> <hbeder at rci.rutgers.edu> 06/29/06 5:03 AM >>>

>>For us the interesting thing about the norm sticking to business was

>>that

>>it was established by both teachers and learners through mutual

>>consensus.

>>It was part of the conetext of instruction rather than a set of imposed

>>rules.  These were voluntary learners who came pre-disposed to work. So

>>I

>>think sticking to business comes naturally for adult learners.  If you

>>have a class where learners are not sticking to business, it may be a

>>sign

>>that something is wrong.

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> > I'm not sure that classroom norms are *only* a concern for learners;

>>what

>> > about meetings where practitioners sometimes struggle to balance the

>>work

>> > on

>> > the table and the social pieces - not just chatter, but the

>>relationship

>> > building undergirding so much of the work we do?

>> >

>> > Is the question more about how work/learning get done and about

>>balance?

>> > I'm not sure how completely different these issues are in classroom

>> > contexts

>> > and in other contexts where people meet to accomplish some purpose or

>> > another (learning, meeting, workshop, etc...)

>> >

>> > Janet Isserlis

>> >

>> >

>> >> From: Julie  McKinney <julie_mcKinney at worlded.org>

>> >> Reply-To: The Focus on Basics Discussion List

>><focusonbasics at nifl.gov>

>> >> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:38:23 -0400

>> >> To: <focusonbasics at nifl.gov>

>> >> Subject: [FocusOnBasics 376] Re: Welcome to discussion of Learner

>> >> Engagement!

>> >>

>> >> Katrina brought up an interesting point about classroom norms. In

>>Hal's

>> >> study it seemed that classroom norms were a major factor in engaging

>> >> learners, yet in his study classes the norm of "sticking to business"

>> >> seemed to be very smooth and unproblematic. My guess is that many

>> >> classroom situations have more of a mix, as Katrina describes. If

>>this

>> >> is important in learner engagement, then we should discuss what we

>>can

>> >> do to improve or enforce the classroom norms in those classes where

>>they

>> >> are not consistent.

>> >>

>> >> How do we help everyone "stick to business"? Are there other

>>classroom

>> >> norms besides "sticking to business" that are important?

>> >>

>> >> Julie

>> >

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>>

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