Erin: Welcome to T2A chat. We’re learning the story of the woman who shared the success and failures of Mahatma Gandhi. Kasturba Gandhi was known as “Ba” – or mother – to millions in India as she stood with the Mahatma. We talk with Arun Gandhi, the fifth grandson of the late spiritual leader and Kastur. He is author of The Forgotten Woman: The Untold Story of Kastur Gandhi. We’re also talking with Vijay Rana, a London-based journalist and author of Mahatma Gandhi. Let’s start with a question from Ethiopia.
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Wondwossen, Ethiopia (email): What was Ashoka’s impact on your grandfather and on modern India in terms of efforts to alleviate economic and social troubles…
Arun: I don't think Ashoka was a great influence on my grandfather. He was more influenced by Lord Rama, a mythological king of Ayodhya who was known to be compassionate, caring, loving and righteous. He is said to have ruled a kingdom with the greatest love for all people. Grandfather wanted India to be a country like that. It did not mean that he wanted to create a Hindu country but one that was administered with compassion and caring for all people.
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A C Rathinavel, India (email): Arun, share with us your most memorable moments with our Father of Nation and with "BA" mother... You must have been very proud to have been born in the Mahatma's family.
Arun: I think every moment that I spent with them were momentous. I don't remember much about my stay with Kasturba because she died in 1944 and the last time I saw her I was six years old. But the most important lesson that grandfather taught me was learning to use anger intelligently instead of abusing anger. He said anger is like electricity -- useful when used intelligently but deadly when abused. He said all of us must learn to use anger intelligently.
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Hio Tiao Lim, Philippines (email): I have always been fascinated by the Story of Mahatma Gandhi: A Man of Peace, which the world badly needs now. May his memory spark the movement of Active Non-Violence, which is very much popular in resolving conflicts.
Arun: You're right, we do need a person like Gandhi to teach non violence to bring peace in this world. He has given us a legacy we need to understand and to practice efficiently in our lives. I think non-violence is the answer to today's problems but we have to understand non-violence in its full meaning. We tend took look at this in terms of physical non violence -- but that's not true, we commit violence in many many different ways, physical and passive and we need to acknowledge and understand that. If we live in denial we will never be able to improve ourselves but if we honestly attempt to contribute to non violence in life and correct our own behavior we'll become better human beings and create peace in the world.
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P. Madan Mohan, India (email) : Thank you for selecting the Gandhi name in this web chat. There is a proverb in India that (quote) There is a woman behind each and every success of a man. (unquote) How far is it true with regard to The Mahatma's wife? Kindly explain.
Arun: This is true and there could be a man behind every powerful woman. I mention this in the book, that if she had not cooperated with Grandfather in many of things that he wanted to do and there were times when she was doubtful and protested but later when she was made to understand the significance, she changed her mind and cooperated fully. Imagine if she remained firm and did not want to cooperate, it could have led to their breakup and that would have been a greater setback for Grandfather than anything else.
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Hannah: Arun, you mention in your introduction that many publishers were unwilling to publish a work that focused on Mahatma Gandhi’s wife rather than the man himself. Do you think there is a similar hesitation to fully acknowledge Kasturba Gandhi’s contributions in India, and in the international community?
Arun:I don't think people really know much about Ba. Most people thought she was just a bumbling old lady who had to be guided at every step. My research has shown that she was a woman of very firm views who wanted to be convinced about all changes that grandfather wanted to make. Once she was convinced she supported him whole heartedly.
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Hannah: Your grandfather has said that he learned non-violence from his wife. Aside from this, what do you think is Kasturba Gandhi’s most important contribution to what is viewed as her husband’s philosophy? Where do you think her most meaningful contributions lie—not only to Mahatma Gandhi, but also to society as a whole?
Arun: I think at every step if she had not fully supported him it would have been very difficult for grandfather to have done much. If she had opposed him she could have destroyed the marriage and that would not have sat well with grandfather's work and philosophy. She did a lot for the poor women in Bihar and to bringing women into the struggle for freedom. She went to prison herself and in fact died in prison.
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Erin: Though she initially resisted some of her husband’s principles, Kasturba Gandhi eventually accepted them. Do you think she truly took Mahatma Gandhi’s ideology as her own, or did she embrace it out of love and respect for her husband?
Arun:Once she understood what the change was meant to achieve she accepted it whole heartedly. In our male dominated society we pay lip service to the so-called strong woman behind the great man but we really don't want to know much about her. I felt that the world needed to know her life, her work and her sacrifice.
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Subhash: Mahatma Gandhi and Kasturba were married when both were both 13 years old – and she did not know how to read and write and Gandhiji taught her to read and write. Was there any resistance to teaching women at that time?
Arun: Yes, true that both married at 13 and that she had not attended school so could not read or write. Also true that Grandrather did his best to teach her but had resistance from her. My conjecture here is that she was living in a joint family with the wives of other brothers also in the house and for her to start learning and becoming educated as the youngest wife of the youngest son it would be embarrassing for her to relate this aspect of her life to the other women in the household. And those women being her senior may have taken objection or could have even ridiculed her for trying to supercede them by getting herself educated. So we have to look at the milieu of that era and judge everything from that aspect.
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A C Rathinavel, India (email): Mr. Rana, tell us about the angle and focus you chose for your Mahatma Gandhi book.
Vijay: The full title of the book is: 'Mahatma Gandhi: Images and Ideas for Non-violence'. This is the first all color book on Mahatma Gandhi. It's a collection of the photographs of Gandhi's statues, murals, wall paintings, graffiti, posters, puppets from all over the world, putting Gandhi in true global perspective. It demonstrates how Gandhi's image and ideas are being used around the world. Every photograph is coupled with a quotation of Gandhi. Thus the book also presents the entire spectrum of Gandhian thought from non-violence to multi-faith harmony to women's rights.
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Hannah: Vijay, what made you decide to use a compilation if photos, rather than writing or another medium, to demonstrate people’s use of Gandhi’s message?
Vijay: Gandhi was my childhood hero. We grew almost worshiping him so as an Indian I was quite keen to discover the global legacy of Gandhi. I was greatly surprised to see how much people are inspired by the message of Gandhi in far off countries like Brazil, Mexico, Palestine and Spain. These photographs are the living example of how Gandhi is virtually worshiped among those who are interested in world peace, social justice and communal harmony.
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Subhash: Did Kasturba participate actively in the political movements led by Gandhi or was her main support moral and focused on taking care of the family?
Arun: Yes she did actively participate in many of the struggles both in south Africa as well as in India and went to prison several times for that and in fact died in prison in 1944.
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Erin: Your grandmother’s personality had an interesting dichotomy. She obviously had a very strong will and an independent spirit, but at the same time, she fully devoted herself to the life and goals of another person. Given the choice and the resources, do you think your grandmother would have chosen a different life path for herself?
Arun: Even if she may not have made a conscious choice for herself her continuous opposition to what grandfather wanted her to do would have strained and even broken the relationship. Recall in south Africa it almost came close to breaking point when Ba refused to clean the chamber pot used by a clerk.
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Hannah: You received some criticism for calling Israel “the biggest players in a global culture of violence” in a piece you wrote for the Washington Post. Can you elaborate more on why you said that, and talk about what policy changes or enactments you’d like to see in that region?
Arun: I am not a Jew hater or anti-Semite. I have wonderful Jewish friends.For sixty years Israel and Palestine have been embroiled in a war just as India and Pakistan have been. It does not take a rocket scientist to see that the policy of violence is not solving the problem. At what point should civilized human beings come to the conclusion that a policy is failing? Is sixty years and thousands of deaths not time enough to find an alternate way of dealing with the problem? |
Subhash: Dr. Rana, your book “Mahatma Gandhi” is a collection of the photographs of Gandhi's statues, murals, wall paintings, graffiti, posters, puppets from all over the world, putting Gandhi in true world perspective. Thus the book also presents the entire thought spectrum of Gandhi. And every photo is coupled with a quote of Gandhi. You also wrote that hundreds of streets in dozens of countries are named after Gandhi. How is Gandhi relevant today to someone who is not an Indian?
Vijay: If you take Gandhi literally then it looks like he’s not relevant in the today’s world but if you look more carefully at what he said some fundamental things about society which are universally true, he was laying the right path for all humanity. When he said we should think of the poorest of the poor, what society would not want to uplift the poor? Similarly when he says multi-faceted dialogue with mutual respect for religions and communities, every democratic society would like to have that sort of dialogue.
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Arun: I agree but I also want to say that Gandhi’s non-violence is about love, respect, understanding, acceptance and appreciation of each other, building better relationships with across religious, social and economic lines and if we ask if Gandhi’s relevant today, what we’re asking is, is love and respect and understand relevant or not and if we can say it is not, then God help us.
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Hannah: Have you come across instances in which you felt Gandhi’s message was misinterpreted, or somehow used incorrectly?
Vijay: Yes there are people and many shades of political opinion who have criticized Gandhi and have tried to misinterpret his message. Their main argument is that Gandhi's idea of non-violence was unworkable. In India lot of people argue that Gandhi's pacifism made the country week. They also argue that Gandhi was responsible for Muslim appeasement. Critics also say on economic front his opposition to machine and industrial development would have left India in perpetual poverty. But Gandhi’s critics fail to understand the social and historical backdrop in which Gandhi was working. For example take his emphasis on spinning wheel. He introduced it in 1915 when he goes to hunger-struck Bihar. Poor farmers used to sow seed and wait for next three months for crops to come up. Many of them lived without any clothing. To these idle farmers he introduced the spinning wheel and now they could make own linen and even clothes. Not only they earned extra money by spinning cloth they also have the sense of dignity. This example may look like a naive suggestion now in the 21st century. But in 1915 to hungry and naked farmers in Bihar this was the great redemption and a great solution.
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Erin: Vijay, do you think Gandhi’s perception of nonviolence entails not using force to intervene on behalf of other countries? Or can this approach be acceptable, according to Gandhi’s principles?
Vijay: Gandhi was against all kind of violence - violence against individual, society or nations. He used to say the war first of all brutalizes those who are trained for it.
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Erin: In the United States, the ideology of peace and nonviolence is often taken as a “liberal” stance. How would you go about spreading the message on a nonpartisan level?
Vijay: Keep on hammering the fundamental truth that violence never provides any solution and an eye for an eye will make the whole world blind. This was Gandhi's favorite quote. Look at the 60 years of conflict between Israelis and Palestinians. As long as they use violence for their cause there is no hope. It’s not about being liberal or being conservative, being leftist or rightist. Gandhi belongs to all. He is about fundamental and universal truth. For example he says war and violence solve no problems. Peace brings prosperity, happiness, harmony and a kind community that is dedicated to uplift those who have been left behind. A society in which highest of high are concerned about the poorest of the poor. Gandhi aimed for a democratic and equitable society being created and fostered by consensus rather then by force as in the communist countries.
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Subhash: Mahatma Gandhi’s peaceful struggle helped form an independent India and inspired countless people around the world. UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon said recently Gandhi is needed now more than ever amid rising global tensions, intolerance and conflicts. Can Gandhian philosophy influence individuals and groups who advocate violence or terrorism?
Vijay: It's complicated because those who perpetrated crimes like 911, it’s very difficult to convince them and bring them onto Gandhi’s non violent path – what we’re doing here on VOA is discussing how to control these people or put them on the right path and one way is to educate society as much as we can about Gandhi’s message about peace, non violence and love and this will isolate this tiny minority and the more we educate society about Gandh’s message, the more we isolate terrorists. It is very difficult and there will always be evil people who commit these crimes but over time we’ll develop a consensus that these crimes are not repeated again and again -- so right now on VOA we’re spreading the message of Gandhi and as this happens, those devoted to terrorism -- we hope -- will not be heard and will be isolated and this is a civilized way to fight terrorism.
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Arun: I have a slightly different take we as human beings have deliberately built a culture of violence around -- us because it’s easier to control through fear than through love, even in our homes when we threaten our children with punishment when they don’t behave…as long as we exert that fear, we have that control but when fear leaves, so does control -- that culture of violence we’ve perpetrated on humanity has resulted in all of these things, terrorism, crime, the negative things in society. As a result of that culture of violence including exploitation…so when we non-chalantly divide the world between the good and the bad people and come to the conclusion that if we eliminate all the bad people the word will be better – that’s totally wrong -- we all have good and bad aspects within us and that’s why good people do bad things and visa versa -- so if we really want to end terrorism and crime and violence we have to change that culture of violence to one of non violence with equal respect for all and treat everyone as human beings and not exploit and harm each other and stop dividing the people between good and bad people.
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Erin: Are there any lessons or events from Kasturba’s life story that you feel are especially relevant right now, with regard to society and current world affairs?
Arun: I think her dedication after understanding is one issue that we all need to learn. Her compassionate caring for those living in poverty is another.
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Erin: How has your rich family history affected your life and career? In what ways do you or don’t you carry on your grandparents’ legacy, and how have your experiences with the past shaped your view of the world?
Arun: I will never be any where close to the Mahatma but he had always said that we must do what we can to work compassionately for those in distress and difficulties. My wife and I have done what we can for the poor. But grandfather's message was not just for his family to follow. It was for all Indians and all of humanity to follow. Many in India consider the Mahatma's family members to be stupid and foolish for not having taken control of poor in India as the Nehru-Gandhi family did. The fact is we did not get into politics because grandfather did not want us to get involved in politics and exploit his good name. He urged us to continue working for the poor which most of us have done.
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Hannah: What is the most important or pertinent thing you learned, whether about the subjects of your book or yourself, while writing The Forgotten Woman?
Arun: I understood the importance of the philosophy of nonviolence and the breath and depth of this philosophy. It is not just the physical aspect of violence that we need to be concerned about but the non=physical and passive violence that all of us commit every day consciously and unconsciously.
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Erin: What is your take on the current political and social climate in India, and what kind of future do you see for the region?
Arun:Everyone is jubilant about the economic resurgence that India is experiencing. But i have not heard anyone express any concern for the 500 million poor who have been marginalized and will never get even the crumbs from the table. I think India is heading for more and more violence which will ultimately destroy civilization.
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Erin: What, in your opinion, is the most important issue facing the world right now, and how must it be approached? Are there any ethical issues you feel are often overlooked in the process of policymaking?
Arun: A culture of violence that dominates every aspect of human life from language to relationships to spirituality. When this culture of violence gets a stranglehold on society civilizations have perished. Violence is a cancer that is destroying our civilization even as we speak.
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Hannah: Are there any ethical issues you feel are often overlooked in the process of policymaking?
Arun:I don't think ethics have ever played a role in policy-making. It is always about selfishness, power-mongering, greed are upper most in policy-making.
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Erin: Are there or have there been any political struggles or disputed for which you would not advocated a non-violent approach. In other words, can a level of violence ever to be a necessary part of the peacemaking process?
Arun: Until we create a society that is perfect we may have to use limited violence in special circumstances but our aim should always be to reduce the use of violence to the barest minimum. But we must also remember that many of the problems of the past that have resulted in violence like World War II we created the situation that gave rise to Hitler. He did not emerge on his own. The point i am making is that we have to change our behavior and our relationships so that we don't create people who turn into insane devils.
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Erin: Do you think that a compromise between two nations is always possible, even when there is a fundamental and deeply rooted conflict of interest? What should be done in situations when a peaceful solution seems impossible?
Arun: If one believes passionately in peace one will bend over backwards to find a solution. If the effort is sincere and honest it will bear fruit but if it is vitiated by self interests it will never be resolved. You might ask why was grandfather unsuccessful in convincing Jinnah against partition. It was mostly because behind the scenes there were politicians who did not want a compromise to take place. |
