Being able to read people's minds would solve a lot of issues (at least in
the classroom), but you're right, Andrea- we don't know what is actually
going on in people's minds, which is precisely why we should never assume
anything about anyone...ever. Even if we know something is going on with
someone, we probably don't know everything that is going on with that
person; therefore, we can't predict that person's thoughts, feelings, or
reactions to what is going on. I think teachers should always ask questions
and look for all the possible explanations for their students' behaviors
instead of making assumptions. I also think that this is something that
should be emphasized in teacher prep programs so that even new teachers will
know to ask why before drawing any conclusions or making any assumptions
about their students.
Ryan

On 9/3/06 9:23 AM, "Andrea Wilder" <andreawilder at comcast.net> wrote:


> One problem is  that we don't know what is actually going on in

> people's minds.

> 

> Example:  I  learned when I came back from vacation that a friend had

> hospitalized himself against depression/suicide.  I visited him

> yesterday.  He seems like himself...but less so.

> 

> What is happening in his head?  I have no idea.  I knew he was in big

> trouble last July--insomnia that went on and on.

> Last year I thought that he and his wife needed a vacation, they both

> seemed exhausted.

> 

> Another example:  I also learned when I came back from vacation that a

> member of  my congregation had died of pancreatic cancer.  She was

> often abusive on the phone, had changed her behavior lately, was

> reaching out.  I expect that was her knowledge of impending death.

> 

> What i am trying to say is that there is a big leap between symptoms

> (even if we can recognize them) and knowledge of how an individual

> actually feels and what their behavior means.

> 

> Ideally, teachers should have built up through their own teaching

> experience enough knowledge to  at least start asking questions.

> Knowing what is happening in the head even in a textbook way is useful

> up to a point, certainly, and I am all for this, this is a lot of

> ignorance out there that can be turned into knowledge, and i have done

> much reading myself.

> 

> It turns out that my friend in the hospital had problems in the past;

> this suggests that a careful history of the student be taken.

> 

> Andrea

> On Sep 2, 2006, at 7:58 PM, Ryan Hall wrote:

> 

>> I think we have to be very careful how much we generalize our own

>> experience

>> with violence. While I think that acknowledging the fact that we have

>> all

>> suffered some type of violence and even inflicted some type of

>> violence on

>> others may shed some light on how common violence is in our society,

>> how we

>> are all susceptible to it, and how survivors and perps. really aren't

>> the

>> "other," we must be very careful how we transfer our own experiences to

>> those of our learners. We must not forget that violence takes on many

>> forms

>> and that what we have experienced may not compare to what our learners

>> have

>> experienced or continue to experience. Or, that the way we were able

>> to deal

>> with the violence in our lives is something that our learners should

>> be able

>> to do. Limiting the definition of violence and trauma is a risk we

>> take when

>> looking at ourselves as the survivor and/or perp. In this case, it

>> might

>> very well dilute the importance and impact of severe abuse on

>> learning. What

>> do others think about Daphne's question? I am very interested in

>> hearing

>> your opinions.

>> Ryan

>> 

>> 

>> On 8/30/06 12:27 PM, "Daphne Greenberg" <ALCDGG at langate.gsu.edu> wrote:

>> 

>>> Ryan and Andres raise very good points. I wonder what would happen if

>>> we

>>> think of all of this as a continuum and therefore, realize that we

>>> have

>>> all been survivors of some kind of abuse and have all perpetrated some

>>> kind of abuse. For example, many of us as children have been "picked

>>> on"

>>> and have done our share of "picking on others"

>>> What would happen if we stopped thinking of survivors and perps as

>>> "the

>>> other" and realize that some of that resides in each one of us? Would

>>> we

>>> be diluting the importance and impact of severe abuse, or would it be

>>> a

>>> step in starting to talk about abuse in the open? Would it help

>>> create a

>>> safe classroom for our learners, or would it have an opposite effect?

>>> Daphne

>>> 

>>> 

>>>>>> "Muro, Andres" <amuro5 at epcc.edu> 8/25/2006 6:17:47 PM >>>

>>> Ryan, taking your argument a step further, I wonder how many of us are

>>> perps of violence too. We may be, in our efforts to teach and to

>>> create

>>> spaces for the students, crating spaces that perpetuate violence too.

>>> 

>>> One thing that I usually talk about w/ teachers, is the fact that many

>>> teachers raise their voices, or slam things once in a while. They may

>>> not realize this, but a victim of violence will find this very

>>> unsettling. In fact, most teachers never discuss domestic violence in

>>> teachers prep courses. So, in a way, they are creating or perpetuating

>>> violent spaces w/o being aware.

>>> 

>>> Also. what is the extent to which we perpetuate violence by "othering"

>>> (abnormalizing) certain groups. For example, do we use texts that only

>>> represent heterosexual relationships? Do we use texts, or stories or

>>> movies that show happy families, happy endings and stories ( a la

>>> Cosby

>>> show)? Do the literature and movies, tv shows, etc always portrait

>>> nice

>>> comfortable dwellings, people driving nice cars, etc. While teachers

>>> may

>>> not be conscious of this, they are creating environments that may

>>> abnormalize or "other" the lifestyles of many of our students. Also,

>>> are

>>> we moody, cynical, sarcastic, quick to judge, etc. Many of these acts

>>> can be threatening and perpetuate violence. So, to what extent are we

>>> unconscious perpetuators of violence?

>>> 

>>> I have, in the past, responded, cynically, sarcastically, w/hostility,

>>> judgementally, etc in this and other listservs. In fact, I think that

>>> they might have a file about me. In a sense, I am a virtual perp of

>>> violence. While this may be amusing to some, I have talked to many

>>> people that are intimidated by this medium.

>>> 

>>> Andres

>>> 

>>> -----Original Message-----

>>> From: womenliteracy-bounces at nifl.gov

>>> [mailto:womenliteracy-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Ryan Hall

>>> Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 6:48 AM

>>> To: The Women and Literacy Discussion List

>>> Subject: [WomenLiteracy 514] Re: the other

>>> 

>>> This is a very hard question, Daphne, but one that I think should be

>>> considered.

>>> 

>>> I believe that we do "other" the perps of violence, or at least of

>>> certain

>>> types of violence, and I think we do so because we just don't want to

>>> or

>>> can't allow the thoughts that violent people are actually closer to us

>>> than

>>> we think. The truth is, though, that there are many perps of violence,

>>> and

>>> they do attend the classes we teach, the meetings we have at work, our

>>> places of worship, and the gatherings we have at our house. Some even

>>> live

>>> with us. To consider all the places one shares with perps of violence

>>> is, to

>>> say the least, disturbing. Who wants to believe that their friend,

>>> colleague, student, professor, minister, or even relative is connected

>>> in

>>> any way to violent behavior? No one, of course, which is why people

>>> are

>>> so

>>> surprised to find out things like their minister sexually abuses

>>> members

>>> of

>>> the congregation, or their friends beat their children, or that their

>>> neighbor murdered or tortured someone, etc.

>>> 

>>> I think, though, too that, just as we "other" survivors of violence

>>> less

>>> when we realize we know survivors, we would "other" perps less, too,

>>> if

>>> we

>>> realized that we knew one. I think this is true because, when we find

>>> out we

>>> know a perp, we would almost instantly ask why- why did this person--a

>>> person I consider to be such a nice person, a good friend, etc.--do

>>> such

>>> a

>>> horrible thing? Usually, there is an explanation for the violence that

>>> makes

>>> us understand why, even if we can never excuse what was done (because

>>> I'm

>>> not saying violence of any sort should ever be excused). And, usually,

>>> perps

>>> of violence have either been or are still also victims of violence.

>>> 

>>> Knowing that they exist is not the hard part for me- it's the question

>>> of

>>> interaction that gets me. This is what I have come up with after

>>> having

>>> to

>>> teach classes that I was pretty certain had at least one perp in them.

>>> I

>>> could be oversimplifying this, but I think that we do need to consider

>>> that,

>>> not only do we encounter victims and survivors of violence regularly,

>>> but

>>> that some of them are also perps of violence. Should we act any

>>> differently

>>> knowing that there are more perps of violence in the spaces we occupy?

>>> I

>>> guess that depends on your beliefs about the way we should treat

>>> people

>>> in

>>> general. If you are a person who believes that you must mask your

>>> opinions

>>> and beliefs about certain things so that you don't offend certain

>>> people,

>>> then maybe you do need to make some changes. If you are a person who

>>> strives

>>> to be respectful and considerate of all people no matter who you are

>>> around,

>>> however, then I think considering that people are different in many

>>> different aspects and for many different reasons may be

>>> enough...because

>>> you're just going to be nice to everyone anyway. I think the same goes

>>> for

>>> teaching- we must strive to be respectful, considerate, and sensitive

>>> to

>>> the

>>> fact that the content we teach and the activities we ask students to

>>> do

>>> will

>>> have a different effect on each of them depending on their personal

>>> situation. If you are able to do that, then you will also be able to

>>> tell

>>> when a student is having difficulty with what you are asking him/her

>>> to

>>> do-

>>> at least in most cases.

>>> Ryan

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> On 8/23/06 5:00 PM, "Daphne Greenberg" <ALCDGG at langate.gsu.edu> wrote:

>>> 

>>>> The previous discussion sparked by the readings made me think about

>>> a

>>>> few things, and then today on NPR I heard something which made me

>>> want

>>>> to pose a question to this group.

>>>> As mentioned in this listserv, those of us who have not endured

>>>> violence in our lives sometimes think of people who have endured

>>>> violence as "the other"  and we are often confronted with realizing

>>> this

>>>> when we hear our friends/colleagues talk about violence in their

>>> lives,

>>>> and suddenly, "the other" is not "the other" any longer. Many say

>>> that

>>>> this is one of the things that perpetuates the frequency of

>>> violence,

>>>> that as a society, we simply do not really acknowledge how

>>> pervasive,

>>>> common, and frequent it is.

>>>> A topic that we talk about even less, and I think "other" even more,

>>> is

>>>> the perpetrator of violence. If we ourselves have not perpetrated

>>>> violence, we often think of "perps" as the "other."

>>>> My question to the group is: Are "perps" really as much of the

>>> "other"

>>>> as we often make them seem to be? This is something that I often

>>> wonder

>>>> about. For example, we often hear that torturers are known as loving

>>>> family members. We hear that people are shocked to find out that

>>> their

>>>> friend is a secret serial murderer. People are shocked to hear that

>>> a

>>>> beloved teacher has been sexually abusing her students. We tend to

>>>> forget that whole communities are involved in atrocities that

>>> occurred

>>>> in the Holocaust, in Bosnia, in Darfur, etc., etc. I could go on and

>>> on.

>>>> The NPR commentator today talked about how ordinary people are

>>> involved

>>>> in many world atrocities.

>>>> We talk on this listserv about the need to realize that amongst are

>>>> individuals who have been abused and are being abused. Do we also

>>> need

>>>> to talk about the fact that amongst are individuals who have been,

>>>> and/or are currently perpetrators of abuse?

>>>> For example, we talk about the need to be careful when we read aloud

>>>> passages that involve abuse, because it may be triggering for some

>>> of

>>>> our learners who are survivors. Well, what about the perpetrators

>>> who

>>>> are teachers, or learners? Do we need to think about them, and the

>>>> impact reading aloud passages have on them?

>>>> I wonder what would happen if we acknowledged that in our

>>> classrooms,

>>>> our research meetings, our corporate meetings, etc., etc. we

>>> probably

>>>> have both survivors and perpetrators. Would that change the way we

>>>> teach, the way we interact?

>>>> Any thoughts?

>>>> Daphne

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>>> 

>>> 

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>> 

>> 

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> 

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