MR. ZALES: Okay. My name is Bob Zales, II. I'm president of the National Association of Charter Boat Operators, and we submitted an e-mail statement which I'll read onto the record. We really appreciate this extra effort to be able to do this by speakerphone. It was fogged in this morning and I wasn't able to fly into Washington.
This is addressed to the Office of Technical and Information Services, and it's regarding our comments for the development of accessibility guidelines under the ADA for small vessels.
"Dear Members, We thank you for this opportunity to comment on the above. NACO is an association of charter boat owners and operators representing over 3,000 members. Our members are located throughout the country, from Alaska to Maine to the Gulf to Mexico and include Hawaii and the Caribbean. The vessels our members operate range in size from small Zodiac inflatables to 100-foot headboats.
"The majority of our members own or operate uninspected and D-class vessels of less than 100 gross tons carrying fewer than 150 passengers and fewer than 49 overnight passengers. These vessels range in length from 12 to 100 feet and have been sometimes 30 feet.
"The passenger capacity will range from 2 up to 149 passengers. The vast majority of the U.S. Coast Guard uninspected six passenger classes of vessels are typically converted pleasure vessels manufactured production lifestyle and not built to any ADA standard.
"The smaller guide-type vessels are generally small, center console outboard vessels that are purposely built to carry four or five people with limited walk-around space. The larger T class U.S. Coast Guard inspected vessels will vary from production line vessels brought into U.S. Coast Guard. Inspected vessels standards are purposely built for specific activity, such as fishing, sightseeing, diving, et cetera.
"I need to point out that towing at the U.S. Coast Guard inspected vessel compliance merely means adding more height to rails, more height to size, additional bulkheads, watertight doors on hatches with raised barriers off the deck to prevent water from running under the door, additional handrails for safety, specified physical dimensions for passenger seating and capacity, among many other requirements.
"Many U.S. Coast Guard safety requirements for vessels are contrary to mobile accessibility within the vessel. I will provide line drawings of several different types and sizes of the vessels we own or operate here today." I'll have to fax them to you all. I had them with me to bring, but let me fax it to you shortly.
"I would like to briefly discuss the four options you have presented, plus add our suggestion for another option. We view option 1 as completely unattainable. As you will be able to see by the line drawings provided, the vessels we own and operate will not be able to come into compliance with even the most minimum requirements of large passenger vessels. The most minimal requirements would cause extensive modification to our vessels, which would have severe negative impact to the safety and operation of these vessels.
"Vessels are much like aircraft as they are designed for specific purposes for operation in extreme environments. In many cases, a small addition of undesigned weight and different configuration of bulkhead location and size, especially of areas designed to be small, can dramatically alter the vessel's stability and could cause severe negative safety issues when operating in rough seas. We oppose option 1 and suggest it not be considered.
"Option 2 also has many problems for us. The deck areas of most of the vessels we own and operate have to allow for the immediate and speedy elimination of water from ways and weather. Consequently, the proposed requirement of openings no larger than a one-inch diameter sphere on those surfaces of accessibility would not be reasonable. It would create unsafe conditions and would thus cause U.S. Coast Guard vessels to lose their certificate of inspection plus their ability to carry more than six passengers.
"The vessels all have exposed deck areas, which are the areas of accessibility. Thus, reducing deck openings to no more than one inch in diameter could cause a vessel to contain too much water in an area, which could result in an extreme unseaworthy and hazardous condition. Most vessels do not have a minimum of 32-inch openings for accessible areas and walkways. Expansion of current areas to meet this proposed requirement could cause stability issues.
"Most sailing vessels will have main cables and lines supporting the masts and sails and will have limited area for wheelchair accessibility due to the nature of the size and integrity of the vessel.
"They will also generally have limited area on the main deck with safe stairs to the main cabin where the -- facilities will be located. We contend it would be most impractical and certainly jeopardize the vessel's stability by trying to alter the original vessel design.
"The threshold proposed would also create a hazardous condition and, in many cases, would be contrary to U.S. Coast Guard requirements. The transfer requirements proposed would be extremely difficult to install as, in most cases, there is not enough space available on the small vessels, and the manually or mechanically operated booms and winches could cause stability issues.
"The proposed head dimensions also could cause stability problems, and in many cases, they're just impossible. Many type vessels do not have a lot of space to dedicate to large heads.
"Marine heads are not areas used for comfort or relaxation as, in many cases, the head area is where many passengers become seasick. Experience has shown that the less time spent in the head, the less likely someone will become sick. Therefore, the vast majority of marine heads are designed to be functional, but to get in and get out.
"Much like an airplane, the head area is one where the design of the craft is such that the head area is wasted space, and so it is purposely designed small with a low impact on vessel stability. Expansion of the area could dramatically affect vessel stability.
"In some cases, vessels use porta potties in very small areas, barely large enough for the device. In some cases, the heads are not even required to be on a vessel. In almost all circumstances, the heads on vessels are extremely small and would be difficult to modify.
"The ladder step issue would also be difficult to change as, in many cases, vessels have traditional steps but at angles of traditional ladders. The angle of the step's ladders is such to reduce access space and to increase other area space. Modification of this space could affect the design stability of the vessel.
"Option 3 needs more input as to the projected cost of building or altering vessels to be ADA compliant. As I had stressed above, alteration of vessels to comply with the proposed requirements could cause severe stability problems, thus creating serious safety issues for all passengers.
"In regards to new construction costs or design changes to existing plans, total redesign could be so costly that it would prevent building of such vessels. The tourism market is limited in that income.
"The vast majority of charter boat owners are family-owned and operated. They operate on very limited budgets and generally are in business because of family history of the business. While we are open to the possibility of new vessels being designed to be ADA compliant, we respectfully request more information on the cost of such new construction compared to the typical new vessel cost.
"Option 4 is looking to passenger capacity for implementation. This is difficult to address because there are so many different type vessels that have capacity for a similar number of passengers, and then there are similar vessels that have capacity for a different number of passengers.
"An example is a typical 50-foot sport fisherman with an 18-foot beam. There could be two identical vessels, with the only exception that one is U.S. Coast Guard uninspected and only be able to carry up to six passengers and the other is U.S. Coast Guard inspected and has the U.S. Coast Guard certificate to carry 25 passengers. The only difference between the two vessels is a piece of paper issued by the U.S. Coast Guard.
"Another case is a 35-foot sport fisherman with 12-foot beam, and the U.S. certificate to carry 12 passengers. There could be alongside this vessel a 75-foot U.S. Coast Guard uninspected vessel with a 22-foot beam that would be limited to six passengers. Vessels are truly no one size fits all, and passenger class is not always relative to vessel size.
"Option 5. The NACO option is to exempt small passenger vessels from mandatory ADA compliance for all the reasons stated above, plus the fact that vessels, especially small passenger vessels, are much like airplanes and, in some cases, more dependent on the environment than aircraft. The reason for being more dependent on the environment than airplanes is that the FAA regulates airplanes more stringently than any waterborne agency.
"Vessels generally move freely depending on the person in charge of the vessel. Where airlines are controlled when and where to fly, vessels are generally not. Sea conditions change at a moment's notice.
"Vessel stability and reaction is based on the original design and therefore responds in certain ways. Minor changes to weight, bulkhead configuration, water elimination from decks, and a host of other factors can dramatically affect how the vessel functions and therefore the safety of passengers and crew.
"We therefore request that small passenger vessels be exempt from required ADA compliance and look forward to working with you on this most important issue.
"There are over 16,000 recreational for-hire fishing vessels alone in the United States. This includes both salt and freshwater. It does not include the thousands of sightseeing, diving, water taxi service, sailing, and other tourism for-hire vessels. The possible impact on the proposed requirements can be substantial.
"Safety for all passengers that we carry is of paramount importance to us. Our sector has an extremely good record and reputation for accommodating the physically challenged. We work hard for our passengers to ensure safety and service. NACO is the leading voice for the charter boat fleet in the United States and appreciates this opportunity to comment. We welcome your advice, and we'll be happy to answer any questions you may have for us now or in the future.
"We would also like to thank Mr. Beatty for his help and guidance. His efforts have been extremely helpful, and he has gone out of his way to provide information to us. Again, thank you for this opportunity to speak. Sincerely, Bob Zales, II."
MS. [JAN] TUCK [BOARD CHAIR]: Bob, this is Jan --
MR. ZALES: I'll be glad to take any questions.
MS. TUCK: Bob, this is Jan Tuck of the Access Board. Thank you so much for your comments.
Does anybody have any questions for Bob? Gary Talbot?
MR. [GARY] TALBOT [BOARD MEMBER]: Yeah, if I could, Jan. Thank you, Madam Chair. Gary Talbot, public member.
MS. TUCK: Bob, can you hear him?
MR. ZALES: No, I can't quite hear the question.
MR. TALBOT: I'm sorry. Bob, can you hear me better?
MR. ZALES: Yeah, I can hear you better now.
MR. TALBOT: Just a quick question. On the smaller boats, the fishing boats, that kind of thing, do you think it's feasible for, let's say, some limited accessibility on those boats? I understand your comment.
MR. ZALES: Yes, there is, but I'll go further. Several years ago, we had a different management company, and then we parted ways with them. But we did a brief survey of some of our boats. And I know that the areas that I'm familiar with, and me personally, and the survey that was responded, we provide that access now. To my knowledge, we've never had a situation to where anybody in our tourism-type business of sightseeing, fishing, whatever it may be, has rejected a physically challenged person.
To the contrary, we go out of our way to accommodate with -- there's a lot of things that we do to assist everybody in our efforts. And so where we talk about in our option, the option 5, the mandatory requirement, we would much rather work with a situation to where rather than have something mandated that we do, work with the Board and work with the government and with our industry and develop guidelines that they can do to make things better than what they are, that type thing.
So -- and it all depends on the type of vessels. Like I said, I mean, you can have two identical vessels of, say, 35 or 50 feet or whatever size, and depending -- the Coast Guard requirements a lot of times are basically just a bulkhead in one place or another, your wiring.
Production-type vessels that I've mentioned are vessels like Pattersons, Berkhams, Vikings, those type boats that are built and are built to very good standards, but they don't always comply with what the Coast Guard would require, with UL requirements and different wiring requirements, different water line requirements, all kinds of -- and things like this that don't really make a lot of difference in the capacity of the vessel.
But because the Coast Guard certificate will tell me how many passengers I can allow on my boat, if it's uninspected, if I'm carrying them for hire, I can only carry up to six. I can't carry that seventh person legally. So you could have two identical vessels, identical seating, everything on there, but one could carry more people than another based on a Coast Guard requirement, if that's understandable.
MR. TALBOT: Okay. Thank you.
MS. TUCK: Bob, thank you very much for your time.
MR. ZALES: Thank you.
Letter Read in Above Testimony [PDF version]
National Association of Charterboat Operators
P.O. Box 2990 Orange Beach, AL 36561
Phone (251-981-5136) Fax (251-981-8191)
E-Mail: info@nacocharters.org Web:www.nacocharters.org
January 7, 2005
Office of Technical and Information Services
Architectural and Transportation Barriers Compliance Board
1331 F Street, NW, suite 1000
Washington, DC 20004-1111
Re: Comments for development of accessibility guidelines under the ADA for small vessels.
Dear Members:
We thank you for this opportunity to comment on the above. NACO is an association of charter boat owners and operators representing over 3000 members. Our members are located through out the country from Alaska to Maine to the Gulf of Mexico and include Hawaii and the Caribbean. The vessels our members operate range in size from small zodiac inflatables to 100’ headboats. The majority of our members own or operate uninspected and T class vessels of less than 100 gross tons carrying fewer than 150 passengers and fewer than 49 overnight passengers. These vessels range in length from 12’ to 100’ and have beams from 5’ to 30’. Passenger capacity will range from 2 up to 149 passengers. The vast majority of the USCG uninspected 6 passenger classes of vessels are typically converted pleasure vessels manufactured production line style and not built to any ADA standards. The smaller “guide” type vessels are generally small center console outboard vessels that are purposely built to carry 4 or 5 people with limited walk around space. The larger T class USCG inspected vessels will vary from production line vessels brought into USCG inspected vessel standards or purposely built for specific activity such as fishing, sightseeing, diving, etc. I need to point out that coming into USCG inspected vessel compliance generally means adding more height to rails, more height to sides, additional bulkheads, watertight doors and hatches with raised areas off the deck to prevent water from running under the door, additional hand rails for safety, specified physical dimensions for passenger seating and capacity, among many other requirements. Many USCG safety requirements for vessels are contrary to mobile accessibility within the vessel. I will provide line drawings of several different types and sizes of the vessels we own and operate at the hearing on Monday January 10, 2005.
I would like to briefly discuss the 4 options you have presented plus add our suggestion for another option. We view option 1 as completely unattainable. As you will be able to see by the line drawings provided, the vessels we own and operate will not be able to come in to compliance with even the most minimum requirements of large passenger vessels. The most minimum requirements would cause extensive modification to our vessels which would have severe negative impacts to the safety and operation of these vessels. Vessels are much like aircraft as they are designed for specific purposes for operation in extreme environments. In many cases a small addition of undesigned weight, different configuration of bulkhead location and size, expansion of areas designed to be small, can dramatically alter the vessels stability and could cause severe negative safety issues when operating in rough seas. We oppose option 1 and suggest it not be considered.
Option 2 also has many problems for us. The deck areas of most of the vessels we own and operate have to allow for the immediate and speedy elimination of water from waves and weather. Consequently, the proposed requirement of openings no larger than a 1 inch diameter sphere on deck surfaces of accessibility would not be reasonable, it would create unsafe conditions and would thus cause U.S.C.G. vessels to lose their Certificate of Inspection, thus their ability to carry more than six passengers. The vessels all have exposed deck areas which are the areas of accessibility thus reducing deck opening to no more than 1 inch in diameter could cause a vessel to contain too much water in an area which could result in an extreme unseaworthy and hazardous condition. Most vessels do not have a minimum of 32 inch opening for accessible areas and walkways. Expansion of current areas to meet this proposed requirement could cause stability issues. Most sailing vessels will have many cables and lines supporting the mast and sails and will have limited areas for wheelchair accessibility due to the nature of the design and integrity of the vessel. They will also generally have limited area on the main deck and with steep stairs to the main cabin where the head and other facilities will be located. We contend it would be most impractical and certainly jeopardize the vessel stability by trying to alter the original vessel design. The threshold proposal would also create a hazardous condition and in many cases would be contrary to USCG requirements. The transfer requirements proposed would be extremely difficult to install as in most cases there is not enough space available on the small vessels and the manually or mechanically operated booms and winches could cause stability issues.
The proposed head dimensions also could cause stability problems and in many cases are just impossible. Many vessels do not have a lot of space to dedicate to large heads. Marine heads are not areas used for comfort or relaxation as in many cases the head area is where many passengers become seasick. Experience has shown that the less time spent in a head the less likely someone will become seasick. Therefore the vast majority of marine heads are designed to be functional but to get in and get out. Much like an airplane, the head area is one where the design of the craft is such that the head area is wasted space and so it purposely designed small with little impact on vessel stability. Expansion of the area could dramatically affect vessel stability. In some cases, vessels use porta potties in very small areas barely large enough for the device. In some cases heads are not even required to be on a vessel. In almost all circumstances the head on vessels are extremely small and will be difficult to modify. The ladder/step issue would also be difficult to change as in many cases vessels have traditional steps but at angles of traditional ladders. The angle of the steps/ ladders is such to reduce access space to increase other area space. Modification of this space could affect the designed stability of the vessel.
Option 3 needs more input as to projected costs of building or altering vessels to be ADA compliant. As I have stressed above, alteration of vessels to comply with the proposed requirements could cause severe stability problems thus creating serious safety issues for all passengers. In regards to new construction costs of design changes to existing plans or totally new design could be so costly that it would prevent building of such vessels. The tourism market is limited in net income. The vast majority of charter boat owners are family owned and operated. They operate on very limited budgets and generally are in business because of the family history of the business. While we are open to the possibility of new vessels being designed to be ADA compliant, we respectfully request more information on the costs of such new construction compared to the typical new vessel costs.
Option 4 is looking at passenger capacity for implementation. This is difficult to address because there are so many different type vessels that have capacity for similar numbers of passengers and then there are similar vessels that have capacity for different numbers of passengers. An example is a typical 50’ sportfisherman with an 18’ beam. There could be two identical vessels with the only exception that one is USCG uninspected and only be able to carry up to 6 passengers and the other is USCG inspected and has a USCG certificate to carry 25 passengers. The only difference between the two vessels is a piece of paper issued by the USCG. Another case is a 35’ sportfisherman with a 12’ beam and USCG certified to carry 12 passengers. There could be along side this vessel a 75’USCG uninspected vessel with a 22’ beam that would be limited to 6 passengers. Vessels are truly no one size fits all and passenger capacity is not always relative to vessel size.
Option 5, the NACO option is to exempt small passenger vessels from mandatory ADA compliance. For all the reasons stated above plus the fact that vessels, especially small passenger vessels, are much like airplanes and in some cases more dependant on the environment than aircraft. The reason for being more dependant on the environment than airplanes is that the FAA regulates airplanes more stringently than any water born agency. Vessels generally move freely depending on the person in charge of the vessel. Where airlines are controlled when and where to fly, vessels are generally not. Sea conditions change at a moments notice. Vessel stability and reaction is based on the original design and therefore responds in certain ways. Minor changes to weight, bulkhead configuration, water elimination from decks, and a host of other factors can dramatically affect how the vessel functions and therefore the safety of passengers and crew. We therefore request that small passenger vessels be exempt from required ADA compliance and look forward to working with you on this most important issue.
There are over 16,000 recreational for-hire fishing vessels alone in the United States. This includes both salt and freshwater. It does not include the thousands of sightseeing, diving, water taxi service, sailing and other tourism for-hire vessels. The possible impact from the proposed requirements can be substantial. Safety for all the passengers we carry is of paramount importance to us. Our sector has an extremely good record and reputation for accommodating the physically challenged. We work hard for our passengers to ensure safety and service. NACO is the leading voice for the charter boat fleet in the United States and appreciates this opportunity to comment. We welcome your advice and will be happy to answer any questions you may have now or in the future. We also would like to thank Mr. Beatty for his help and guidance. His efforts have been extremely helpful and he has gone out of his way to provide information to us. Again, thank you this opportunity to speak.
Sincerely,
R.F.Zales, II
President
Attachment: Submitted Drawings