Round Table of Deputy Secretary With Journalists

Perhaps only to begin, in order not to talk too much before trying to answer your questions, I would like to say, referring to my time here as ambassador between 1989 and 1993, that I believe the Free Trade Agreement really was an excellent initiative and when one sees the results today, I believe that the level of commerce is really impressive, in fact that in my time we believed that the level would be about 100 billion, 90 billion a year, something like that, but now it has almost quadrupled.

The level of economic activity, not only commercial but also investment, etc., really is much stronger than it was and I believe that it is due in large part, at least, to the fact that we signed a Free Trade Agreement. We are following with the same policy to advance free trade agreements in the hemisphere; we signed one with Chile since, and you know the story, a year ago we made one with Central America, that was approved – yes, it’s two years, two. And we have pending before our Congress agreements with Panama, Colombia and Peru. And we are at this moment making an effort to succeed in a vote by Congress as soon as possible.

I believe that, as for the Merida Initiative, I would only like to say that it represents an effort to intensify the collaboration with the [Mexican] government in this fight against transnational criminality and narco-trafficking. It is not a question of imposing our ideas in this situation, but of responding, or answering the suggestions from the Mexican side. But really, the basic idea is to intensify and augment the collaboration between the two governments concerning this threat. I understand the level of violence has increased a great deal – enough, I would say – since the time that I was here in the 90s. So, it is a problem which we must confront and we must break it so that in both our countries we can realize the full economic and human potential that can exist in the relationship.

With those brief comments, I will take your questions, your comments.

QUESTION: Ambassador, what is the evaluation that you have on the degree of interaction between narco-trafficking and Mexican institutions and if in the last two years there has been noted or registered a decrease in what some of you have called “undermined Mexican institutions?”

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: I personally do not have an evaluation in respect to that. I know that it is a problem, but to describe for you in detail how extensive it might be, I simply cannot answer that. I know that we have commented that in the security forces there exist problems of corruption and obviously, it is one of the things that must be confronted through this initiative: professionalization of the security sector, institution building, training, all these types of activities can be means of diminishing the level or the possibility of corruption, but I believe that, yes, we recognize that corruption is something that accompanies the problem of narco-trafficking.

QUESTION: I would like to ask you, Ambassador, for some years there has been a process of certification in the combat against drugs that has generated friction between the two countries. Since opting for a multilateral mechanism I believe it has been better. The question is if the Merida Initiative is considering mechanisms of, I suppose that there will be mechanisms of evaluation, if there is money contributed from the United States to another country, finally, what can you tell us about this?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: I don’t believe that we have come to the point of talking about specific mechanisms. We have identified areas that require resources and that require assistance, that of inspections of databases or equipment like planes and helicopters. But obviously when it comes on our side at least to using public funds, there is always one formula or another that is used to constantly evaluate how we are using these funds. But I believe that the Government of Mexico also is going to want to do the same.

QUESTION: Can you provide specific details on what the commitments are that Mexico has and those that the United States has made with this Merida Initiative?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: I believe that we have made a common commitment that is to fight against this menace that is brought by international crime, narco-trafficking, and I believe that the commitment is also a commitment at the political level to fight against this scourge. And that is the basic commitment. If you are asking me if there is some type of secret agenda, it doesn’t exist.

QUESTION: Secret, no, but perhaps unknown. I am asking about concrete, specific things, that already have been reported by the media, what types of areas will be, let’s say, committed in terms of the operation against narco-trafficking? Has the United States committed something concrete in terms of providing equipment, training, vehicles, and on the other side, what has Mexico committed?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: Well, as I said, both of us have made the commitment to fight against this threat and that is what I believe is constant. As far as equipment, we are trying to respond, and we had a working group that worked in great detail in respect to this project, and we are committed to looking for funding to obtain the various resources and various equipment that have already been mentioned in the initiative.

QUESTION: What preoccupies us is the conditionality that could exist in this initiative. In the joint declaration there was nothing conditional, but you are waiting, in the government of the United States, for the discussion that Congress is having, that began last Thursday, for Congress to establish…

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: Can I say it in English, just so that it’s clear and you understand the subtlety of this?

If you are trying to get me to stipulate some specific conditionality

QUESTION: No, I just said that there is nothing on conditionality…

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: But you are trying to get me to elaborate on it. To me this is a political compromise. Let’s be clear about what this is about. There is a serious problem in this country, and there is a serious problem in the border area. And we are trying to help. President Calderon met with President Bush in March in Mérida, and said he would like to work more intensely with us together in a strategic collaboration to help deal with this problem. So we said, well what do you need? And we said, well, let’s sit down and talk about it. And so we had a long discussion. We said maybe we can help here, maybe we’ll not be able to help there, but here is finally the plan we came up with, and which we submitted to Congress. So, that’s all I can tell you. There is no fine print here or anything like that that I’m able to tell you about. Obviously, the assumption is going to be that if you make available certain kinds of equipment that it would be used for the purpose that we both agree that it was intended, and that’s always true in any kind of arrangement like this. But that’s been true in the past with respect to programs that we already carry out with the government of Mexico.

QUESTION: So what’s different? ¿Cuál es la diferencia…?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: Five hundred million dollars worth of equipment.

QUESTION: Which is what Mexico asked for?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: That’s what’s different. I mean, why the question? It’s substantially different.

QUESTION: When Presidents Bush and Calderon sat down to speak: help us, and there was a desire from the United States to help, as it was told now, and in the bilateral conversations that followed this led to the Merida Initiative? What is it that Mexico asked the United States could help with and what is it that Mexico asked that the United States could not help with? This would be the first thing I am raising. And I would like to ask a question in respect to what Leonardo said, about the evaluation mechanisms that there will be, given that there is fiscal money in the package, what is it that there would normally be, what options are on the table, let’s say?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: On the first part, I think that clearly what the Government of Mexico wanted the most was the ability to modernize its security forces, enable them to communicate better with each other, enable them to organize information in a way that it could be acted upon rapidly, and I think there was an awareness that the United States could be helpful with some of its experience and technology in that regard. So, as far as the question of what you do and the follow up with equipment, I’m afraid that’s just something that is routinely done in these kinds of programs. We already have a narcotics assistance program, and we follow up to ensure, and to process liaison and relationships with relevant ministries, so that we remain informed about how this material is used. I mean, I haven’t carried out one of these programs myself in a long, long time. I just don’t recall exactly.

QUESTION: How could they not help?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: I don’t know if there was anything. Tom, do you want to talk a little bit about the initiative, the negotiations…?

ASSISTANT SECRETARY SHANNON: I don’t understand the question very well, in what they couldn’t.. I don’t understand, if it is that the government of Mexico asked for something that we couldn’t provide? I believe no. Because really, as the Deputy Secretary said, the idea of this was to build a level of dialogue and build a level of cooperation based on shared responsibilities, against threats recognized by both sides, and also recognizing that the two countries are contributing to the problem and the solution at the same time.

So, as the Deputy Secretary said, Mexico was looking for a means to gain access to resources in the United States in order to help the security forces here, especially the police and the intelligence institutions specifically to improve their coordination and their training to confront organized crime that is very well armed and very well organized. But at the same time, recognizing that on our side of the border there are aspects of organized crime and other activities that are deepening the problem here and that we have to look for manners to control them, like the selling of weapons, precursor chemicals, money laundering, especially the entry into Mexico of what we call “bulk cash.” And we talked intensely with Mexico about this, and some parts will not be part of this same plan, not of the Merida Initiative – because the money that comes out of the Merida Initiative, at least in our Congress, comes out of our Foreign Assistance Aid, so it is not money that can be used inside the United States – but we have other programs, especially dealing with the Southwest Border Strategy that permit us to focus on and alleviate the problems of arms trafficking, money laundering, and the trafficking of precursor chemicals.

QUESTION: My question would be, at the beginning you mentioned that there has been a lot of corruption in this country…

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: Well, it was a question in regards to “it is said that there is corruption…”

QUESTION: Well, not corruption, but…

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: But it was not a question, I did not…

QUESTION: You said there is corruption in the security forces…

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: “There was…”

QUESTION: Well, when you say there is corruption in the police and some infiltrations in the armed forces. How do you plan to give resources if you do not know for sure if the forces will respond or are loyal to the Mexican government?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: I think this is something that basically the Mexican government has to; it is an issue that they have to face. That is, to investigate the trustworthiness of the security forces is a responsibility of the government and I understand that they are thinking of making an even greater effort in this respect.

QUESTION: And have you identified any sectors where there can be infiltration?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: What I can tell you is that if we had that type of information, we would give it to the [Mexican] government for it to act upon.

QUESTION: Has it been done, or not?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: Another question?

QUESTION: In fact, it’s a clarification, and then I’ll ask you a question that is not very different from the previous. One, I want to know if the United States government sees the Plan Merida as assistance or a joint commitment? I understand that this is not an assistance plan, but a way in which the U.S. faces the common problem. But if it is help, I would like to know, in other words, how does the United States conceive the plan?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: I would say that it is conceived by our President as a commitment and as intensifying collaboration against a common problem, and within this collaboration, it is true, we are giving something material, but it is within the context of commitment.

QUESTION: And my question is, understanding that you will not necessarily tell us your evaluation of the honorability of public security institutions in Mexico, the question is, on a scale from one to ten, how trustworthy…

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: Mhh, yeah, right!

QUESTION: Allow me, please, to finish my question. I take for granted that when you talk to the President or with heads of offices in charge of security, well, in general terms they can be trusted, but I think in the U.S. government there must be a way to measure trustworthiness of Mexican law enforcement agencies, and what I ask of you is not to dodge the answer, answer, how trustworthy are Mexican law enforcement agencies, let’s say, intermediate, almost the heads, those who operate law enforcement agencies, especially for the previous ones that we know about. The woman called the “Queen of the Pacific” was married to policemen, or we have the case of Gutierrez Rebollo, and the case of another general in Tijuana. So, I would like to know. In general terms, I think the U.S. government trusts the Mexican government, but how do you value law enforcement agencies? I’ll be quiet now.

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: Are you sure? You used to treat me so well in Proceso when you…

QUESTION: Not I.

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: Julio Scherer…

QUESTION: I think you have an opinion. Well, there is corruption in both countries, why don’t you say, on a scale from one to ten, how corrupt you think Mexican law enforcement agencies are. If you say “ten,” well it’s good and that’s that.

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: Those would be the headlines tomorrow, right? This is what I am going to answer, and it is true, it is sincere, and I believe it is correct. This government is really, in our judgment, committed to success in the fight, and we are very impressed by the efforts of the government of Mexico under the leadership of Mr. Calderon, and we want to do what is possible to collaborate and support your government on this issue.

QUESTION: Hearing you, I can almost remember that you said exactly the same of President Fox, then I want to ask if the commitment of this government is greater, lesser, or the same as the previous government’s.

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: I think we have seen an effort in recent months and I would say efforts have been strengthened in the fight against international crime. I have not visited all the ministries yet, but I have visited some, besides meeting with the President, and I have been very impressed by what has been done, and what he is trying to do.

QUESTION: Ambassador, I just want to go a little further to close the topic of evaluation. In the past there was certification, you certified, and I cannot imagine that you did not discuss an evaluation mechanism; [U.S.] Congress would hardly approve the assistance if there is not a process of accountability for the public expenditures of the United States. Are you thinking of going back to the certification process?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: No. No. Not at all.

QUESTION: There will be no certification.

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: No. I think not.

QUESTION: I understand that the heart of the Merida Initiative will be dealing with the Secretariat of Defense, not so much with the Attorney General’s Office, or the Secretariat of Public Security.

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: The assistance…

QUESTION: I mean, channeling the assistance that is implicit in the Merida Initiative to the Secretariat of Defense…

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: No, that is not true, it goes to several ministries. I still don’t know if the military gets the greater part. I don’t think that is the case.

ASSISTANT SECRETARY SHANNON: It is about forty percent. Among the different armed forces, it would be about 40 percent, and part of that is airplanes and helicopters, part of that is interdiction equipment that the armed forces World use in their constitutional role. But the great majority, 60 percent, would go to civilian agencies, understanding that part of the purpose of organized crime is to weaken the State and not allow the State to occupy the space it must have, because the purpose of organized crime is not to overthrow the State, but to weaken it to the point that organized crime can do whatever it wants. And what we are seeing in President Calderon’s administration is an understanding of the strategy of organized crime and also a plan to face it, and we want to be part of that solution, we want to participate in training and professionalizing the security forces, but especially in improving the capacity of civilian institutions.

QUESTION: I would like to ask you, in a wider spectrum, if you have thought or deem convenient to integrate all the assistance and cooperation programs there are between the two countries. We have Oasis, we have the Smart Border treaty, we have the SPP with a confused work program, and now we have the Merida Initiative. I ask you, is there not an idea to condense all these programs under a big security umbrella? I don’t know if SPP is, let’s say, the appropriate frame. But there are many other questions, for example, there is a lot of money that goes to migration, and I ask you if this is part of North America’s security perimeter in a wider concept, if there is control of foreigners as part of the program. Is there an idea to condense the cooperation programs, now that Oasis is not here anymore, anyway, an idea of compounding them?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: I don’t think that for the time being we are thinking of integrating all of the initiatives under one umbrella, but obviously, at the same time we have to be aware of everything that is being done, but for now, no.

QUESTION: I ask about resources, President Bush is asking for an amount of $500 million to come up with an amount of $1.4 billion in a three year lapse. Effectively the Mexican government in this agreement, in this conversation with the United States, committed itself to looking for resources for $7 billion in the next three years?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: I don’t know where that number came from, I think it was mentioned by a representative of the Mexican government, but this issue was not part of our discussions. Frankly, we take for granted that the government of Mexico will continue supporting a lot of resources to (solve) this problem. It is evident that it is a priority for this government. They are investing a lot and we are fully confident that they will keep on investing. We have no doubt about it.

QUESTION: The amount of 7 billion dollars was mentioned by Ambassador Sarukhan, and previously it had been mentioned by a U.S. government official in a report by news agency AFP. In other words, there are two sources in the two countries that talk about this amount. Did you never speak of the seven billion dollars?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: Neither Mr. Shannon nor I know from where, or to whom you refer when you speak about a U.S. source. At any rate, I can assure you that it was not part of the dialogue, the amount that the Mexican government would destine, unless you…

QUESTION: You never spoke about any amount?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: We never spoke about any amount. No.

QUESTION: If you please, in exchange for answering the question you did not answer, I’m going to give you information for the record. The seven billion dollars are a rough calculation of the budgets over the next three years for the areas of security in Mexico, and I think it was very imprudent to talk about that because it would seem Mexico is out to get resources. But allow me to ask you a question, now that I have given you information that you can use (laughter). And be very careful with the questions the man in front of me will make you because he looks like an Afghan ayatollah. Why the persistence in the seemingly pointless, perfidious, offensive –even in terms of some U.S. officials, that on one hand provides and commits itself to the Merida Initiative, and on the other continues building a wall that will soon show it is useless. In other words, how can one stop the waves? We cannot stop the migrant movement in the world, why this persistence that seems to me perfidious, aggressive and I think does not correspond to a policy of good neighbors?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: A wall, the walls are not the optimal solution, but it is the sovereign right of a country to try to control its border, its gates in what it considers the most appropriate way, but I do not think this is the optimal solution. That is why I was so much in favor of the Free Trade Agreement, something that could create more employment opportunities here in your country.

Besides, I would say that in spite of the debate you hear in Washington, and sometimes [there is] strong language, right? We are a country of immigrants. Not one member of my immediate family, even me, was born in the United States. We are seven and we were all born outside the United States, we are immigrants. I respect Mexicans; I would say that you now are, I think there are 22 or 25 million Mexican Americans in our country. You, this number of persons, has increased significantly in the last years, and you enrich our culture and our society, and you contribute a lot to our economy. So, that is how I think of immigration.

QUESTION: During your meeting with Secretary Ramirez Acuña you talked about intelligence in our country, because it has been said many times that CISEN (Investigation and National Security Center), which manages the intelligence services in the country, is dismantled, and [with it] the only way to get to drug cartels and really attack the economic niches they keep. How will you act?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: But, is CISEN dismantled?

QUESTION: It is very badly affected and it does not have the resources it needs anymore to produce intelligence to fight crime.

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: But, in regards to what aspect…

QUESTION: My question is if you touched on the topic with the Secretary of Governance of how to improve intelligence in our country and how to reach the financial nuclei of drug cartels in order to have an effective operation?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: The Director of CISEN was in our meeting, but we did not talk about the issue you mention, but what I can say to you, in general terms, because I don’t want to talk about these issues in detail, intelligence issues, is that we have had a very good collaboration with CISEN throughout the years.

QUESTION: What does the United States expect from the role of Mexico in the Security Council? You had the experience a couple of years ago. What is the role you expect Mexico to play, especially (inaudible) the statements of President Bush in regards to Iran…?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: But, will Mexico be… ?

QUESTION: It hopes to.

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: Oh, it is seeking to… Well, as you know, I spent almost three years as representative of my country in the United Nations. It is not my duty to dictate how another country should behave in the Security Council. I think that we always seek, with the permanent members and the non permanent members, to have close collaboration. What is interesting, well, are the cases which have been very exceptional, in which there is disagreement. If you look at the voting records of the Security Council, over 95 percent of the time, resolutions have been approved, many times by consensus. But there are always situations. But if Mexico is elected again as a member of the Council, we would seek to have close collaboration with your country.

QUESTION: Ambassador, throughout the conversations, at any moment, in any part of the conversations, did you talk about the fight against terrorism?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: I could not personally tell you, but…

ASSISTANT SECRETARY SHANNON: The focus since the beginning has been the fight against organized crime and drug trafficking. But we recognize that the organizations, the structures, the means of transporting persons, weapons, drugs, can be used by terrorists, this is something implicit. But it is important to understand that the focus is on the current threat, the threat at this time is organized crime and drug trafficking.

QUESTION: You were director of national intelligence during a time when the Washington Times was publishing consistently that there was intelligence information in the U.S. that there were links between narco-trafficking and terrorist organizations, you even mentioned Al Qaeda, could you give your opinion on the topic?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: I think it possibly could happen in Afghanistan, where there is an extensive cultivation of opium and where Al Qaeda and the Taliban are present. I think it is very likely that there is nexus between terrorism and drug trafficking, but I think that is the case is in Afghanistan, not so much here.

QUESTION: So, you do not have solid information…

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: No, not really.

QUESTION: Would you make a comment if there are DEA and CIA agents in Mexico carrying out operations against drug trafficking, in coordination with (Mexican) armed forces and civilian law enforcement agencies?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: Any activity carried out by our personnel is of not operational nature; rather, it would be in terms of liaison or information sharing. One observation I would like to make regarding terrorism and drug trafficking or the fight against crime, is that I believe there is a common aspect a common element regarding the resources we are talking about. And it is the following: information is very important for the terrorists and the criminals. Therefore it is equally or even more important for information to be integrated rapidly with all the various agencies that can act upon it. Thus the speed of communication, the horizontal moving of information is also important to fight drug trafficking and to fight terrorists. The problem is very similar.

QUESTION: I would not like to leave the issue of security, but since we have a chance to talk to you I would like to know if the U.S. sees something else after free trade. Many Central and South American countries say, well we are going to have a free trade agreement, and life will be much better. And they ask us how we have done. And, well, after several years we ask ourselves if there is an additional step for integration. In other words, there is good cooperation on security issues, there is a 400 billion dollars trade, but there is, do you feel, a great mistrust between the two countries, including (inaudible). Well, is there an agenda beyond free trade between the two countries? Can we think of something else?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: Well, there is trade, there is investment, there is competitiveness because we are neighbors and share common interests in competing as a region with other regions in the world. I believe there is investment and economic activities on both sides of the border that can complement each other and I believe it is important. Obviously there are also the people-to-people exchanges. There are a number of things, and I believe it is a relationship that will continue to grow richer.

QUESTION: Is there a basic document that is signed by both countries subscribing this political commitment, is there a signed document?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: A basic document? Other than last week’s statement, no. Ok. Two last questions.

QUESTION: On the human rights issue, there have been several incidents where because of the fight against drugs there have been human rights violations. A well-known case happened in Sinaloa. Was the human rights issue discussed –because the State Department issues a yearly report on the human rights situation in the world— was this a theme in your discussions?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: I would say that this is a constant theme that is raised very frequently. It is an area where we want to cooperate with the [Mexican] government. You would note that 20 percent of the funds we are committing have to do with the administration of justice, and this obviously includes the human rights issue. And right before this meeting I met with several representatives from civil society dealing with human rights to listen to their concerns.

QUESTION: I imagine that you would know about the great polemics generated here by the possibility, the speculation that as part of the initiative, as part of the Mexico Plan as it has been commonly known, U.S. military would come to Mexico, no? This has been denied. But I would like to ask you exactly the opposite, why not? In other words, if the U.S. Government’s assessment is that the U.S. military presence worked out in Colombia, or if the Colombian government says it worked out, then why not here?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: I will tell you why: because it will not take place here, no way.

QUESTION: But why not?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: Well, you will have to reflect on why not.

QUESTION: Because of political reasons or because it is not convenient in strategic terms?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: I know why not. And surely you also know it. Thank you very much. You are very kind.