1 1 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE 2 PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE 3 WASHINGTON, D. C. 20231 4 5 6 7 P U B L I C H E A R I N G 8 REGARDING ISSUES SURROUNDING TRADEMARK PROTECTION FOR THE OFFICIAL INSIGNIA OF 9 FEDERALLY- AND/OR STATE-RECOGNIZED NATIVE AMERICAN TRIBES 10 11 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 12 13 JULY 8, 1999 - THURSDAY 14 9:00 a.m. to 3:00 p.m. Special Events Building 15 Indian Pueblo Cultural Center 2401 12th Street, Northwest 16 ALBUQUERQUE, NEW MEXICO 87104 17 __________ 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 REPORTED BY: CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NMCCR# 161 10708 Constitution Avenue, Northeast 25 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87112 CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 2 1 A-P-P-E-A-R-A-N-C-E-S 2 FOR THE UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE, PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE, WASHINGTON, D. C. 20231: 3 Q. TODD DICKINSON, Acting Assistant Secretary of 4 Commerce and Acting Commissioner of Patents and Trademarks, U.S. Department of Commerce, Patent 5 and Trademark Office ELEANOR K. MELTZER, Attorney-Advisor, Office of 6 Legislative and International Affairs, U.S. Patent and Trademark Office 7 STEPHEN WALSH, Associate Solicitor, Office of the Solicitor, USPTO 8 ODETTE BONNET, Senior Attorney, USPTO __________ 9 C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S 10 SPEAKERS PAGE 11 COMMISSIONER Q. TODD DICKINSON, Commerce and PTO 3 THE HONORABLE JEFF BINGAMAN, NM Senator 6 12 THE HONORABLE TOM UDALL, NM Congressman 17 GOVERNOR AMADEO SHIJE, NM Zia Pueblo 24 13 GOVERNOR MALCOLM B. BOWEKATY, NM Pueblo of Zuno 30 LT. GOV. TOM F. TALACHE, JR., NM Nambe Pueblo 42 14 5 YOUTH REPRESENTING 4 DIFFERENT NATIONS 43 LT. GOV. TOM F. TALACHE, JR., NM Nambe Pueblo 46 15 FIDEL MORENO, NM President, American Indian CC 51 RICHARD POLESE, Exec. Dir., NM Book Association 55 16 MARGARET A. BOULWARE, President, AIPLA 61 DAVID C. MIELKE, Attorney, NM Pueblo of Zia 70 17 ROBERTA PRICE, Attorney, NM Pueblo of Zia 79 GERALDINE WARLEDO, Cheyenne-Arapaho Business Comm 112 18 LOREN PANTEAH, NM Zuni Jeweler, Cultural Arts 114 PETER PINO, Tribal Administrator, NM Pueblo of Zia 122 19 ISIDRO PINO, Religious Elder, NM Pueblo of Zia 137 SABRINA PINO, Children/Youth, NM Pueblo of Zia 140 20 PETER PINO, Tribal Administrator, NM Pueblo of Zia 141 GOVERNOR AMADEO SHIJE, NM Zia Pueblo 149 21 STANLEY PINO, Chairman, All Indian Pueblo Council 151 WILLIAM WEAHKEE, Exec. Dir., Five Sandoval 22 Pueblos; Petroglyphs Advisory Committee 158 PROFESSOR KENNETH BOBROFF, University of NM 164 23 A. DAVID LESTER, Exec. Dir., Council of Energy Resource Tribes (Muskogee Creek of Oklahoma) 173 24 ELEANOR K. MELTZER, Closing Comments 182 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 187 25 * * * CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 3 1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S (9:14 a.m.) 2 MR. Q. TODD DICKINSON: Good morning. 3 Can everybody hear me all right? 4 AUDIENCE: Yeah. Yes. 5 MR. DICKINSON: My name is Todd 6 Dickinson. I'm the Acting Assistant Secretary of 7 Commerce and Acting Commissioner of Patents and 8 Trademarks of the United States. And on behalf of the 9 Patent and Trademark Office, I want to welcome 10 everybody here today and thank you for welcoming us 11 here to New Mexico. 12 I know that many of you have very busy 13 schedules and we're pleased to be able to provide this 14 opportunity for you. We're honored to be here and are 15 very interested in hearing your thoughts. 16 Let me assure you that all of your comments 17 today, both oral and written, will be very, very 18 carefully considered by us at the Patent and Trademark 19 Office. 20 As many of you already know, due to Senator 21 Bingaman's efforts, the 105th Congress passed a law 22 which requires that the Patent and Trademark Office 23 study a variety of issues surrounding trademark 24 protection for the official insignia of federally- 25 and/or state-recognized Navajo American Tribes. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 4 1 In order to gain the answers to questions such 2 as "What is an official insignia?" and "How might any 3 change to current law affect trademark owners?" and to 4 try to answer those questions, the PTO published two 5 notices in our Federal Register which is the official 6 publication of notices from agencies of the federal 7 government. 8 The first Federal Register notice was 9 published on December 29th, 1998, the second notice on 10 March 16th, 1999. 11 We received quite a few responses to both the 12 December and the March notices but written comments are 13 one thing. Live comments are another. 14 And we thought it would be particularly 15 important that we, the people from our office that are 16 here today, come directly to you to make available your 17 face-to-face comments so that the TPO really walks away 18 with an understanding of the depth of feeling on the 19 different issues involved with trademark protection for 20 official insignia of Native American Tribes. 21 We'll be having hearings here in Albuquerque 22 today. 23 On Monday, in San Francisco, California. 24 And on the -- 25 MS. MELTZER: 15th. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 5 1 MR. DICKINSON: -- 15th, in Washington 2 D.C. and I think it's particularly fitting that we 3 begin the hearings here today in Albuquerque in this 4 lovely setting at the Indian Pueblo Cultural Center. 5 Before we get started, Ms. Meltzer, who is 6 staffing this hearing, has asked me to mention two 7 particular items. 8 First, if you have not already provided us 9 with a written copy of your presentation, please do so 10 today. That ensures that we don't make any mistakes in 11 transcribing the words you might have in your own 12 presentation. 13 You can also send your written comments to us 14 through July 30th. We've set a deadline of July 30th 15 because the statute requires we complete our study by 16 September 29th and we want to make sure we consider all 17 that information we receive. 18 We had a question about copies of today's 19 transcript. Copies of that transcript will be 20 available on our website by August the 10th, we're 21 hoping. Our website is www.uspto.gov. 22 We are here to listen, as I said. We had 23 about 20 speakers and we may have some more today so we 24 would feel free to ask that you keep your comments to 25 about 15 minutes. We will be fairly informal about CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 6 1 time but we want to make sure that everybody that wants 2 to have an opportunity to speak has that opportunity. 3 If we have any time left after scheduled 4 speakers have made their comments, we will accept 5 comments from the floor or if people would like to sign 6 up, they can do so I think in the front; is that right? 7 Or, in the back there. 8 I would ask that all speakers, when you do 9 come to the microphone, state your name and your 10 affiliation, if any. 11 And, again, I want to thank you for coming 12 here today or taking the time to come and testify. Let 13 me assure you again how important this is to us and how 14 serious we will take this matter. We are eager to hear 15 your comments on this very important topic. 16 With that, I'll introduce our first speaker 17 and we're very honored today to have your Senator, the 18 Senator from New Mexico, Senator Jeff Bingaman, who'll 19 be our first witness. 20 (Applause) 21 SENATOR JEFF BINGAMAN: Thank you very 22 much. Can people all hear me? Is this machine 23 working? Yes. Okay. Thank you very much. 24 I want to start by thanking Todd Dickinson, 25 the head of the Patent and Trademark Office Commission CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 7 1 for coming to New Mexico. 2 This is your first trip here? 3 MR. DICKINSON: Yes, indeed. 4 SENATOR BINGAMAN: We're very honored to 5 have you in New Mexico and we think this is where all 6 issues related to Indian people ought to be determined, 7 is right here in New Mexico, and so that's an 8 appropriate place, as you say, to start your hearings. 9 Eleanor Meltzer, thank you very much for all 10 of your help with organizing the hearing. 11 And, also, I want to thank all the people who 12 are here and I know there are others coming during the 13 day. I've seen the list of people who are going to 14 testify and we have had a very distinguished list of 15 presenters today so you'll get a good chance to see the 16 full range of opinion that we have here in New Mexico 17 on the issue. 18 These are important issues for Native 19 Americans in this state, as you know, not just in this 20 state, but for the 1.26 million individuals who are 21 members of over 500 federal- and state-recognized 22 tribes throughout the country. 23 In New Mexico, of course, many of our tribes 24 and pueblos have been in existence for many hundreds of 25 years before this area was ever settled by Europeans, CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 8 1 the Spanish in particular. 2 So it's very important that we understand the 3 importance of these symbols and I think the study that 4 you're doing on protecting official tribal insignia is 5 long overdue when you consider the very long period of 6 time that some of these insignia have been in use. 7 Let me just go through the list. You cited 8 several issues you wanted addressed in the testimony 9 today and let me try to respond as best I can at least 10 on a few of those. 11 First, the Definition of Official Insignia 12 requested any thoughts anyone had on what that official 13 definition should be. 14 I look at official insignia as meaning any 15 insignia of a federal- or state-recognized tribe that 16 has been used as the official insignia of the tribal 17 government or is representative of the tribe. 18 Now, that may not answer all questions but I 19 think that's a good starting place for a definition. 20 Many of the nations in New Mexico have 21 formally adopted what I think of as an official 22 insignia. For example, there exists the Great Seal of 23 The Navajo Nation. The Great Seal of the Jicarilla 24 Apache Tribe. 25 These seals contain symbols of importance to CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 9 1 the tribes. They're easily recognizable as the 2 official seals of those particular tribes. 3 Though some tribes and pueblos have not 4 formally adopted official seals, many use symbols on 5 their government letterhead, on their calling cards 6 that are representative of the culture of the pueblo or 7 the tribe. Many have used these same insignia for 8 generations. 9 The insignia used by the Acoma Pueblo is 10 symbolic of the clans that make up the Acoma Pueblo. 11 The insignia also incorporates symbols of cultural 12 significance to the pueblo. 13 To those who are familiar with Native 14 Americans in this State of New Mexico, the Acoma 15 symbol, the Acoma insignia is representative of that 16 pueblo. 17 The second item or issue that you asked people 18 to address was the Establishing and Maintaining a List 19 of Official Insignia. 20 Establishing a list of official insignia, I 21 don't believe would be difficult because, as I 22 mentioned, I think it's fairly easy to determine in the 23 case of each tribe whether they have adopted an 24 official insignia. 25 For those who have not formally adopted such CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 10 1 insignia, a change in the law that would protect 2 official insignia would likely prompt the adoption of a 3 great seal or other official insignia by many of those 4 tribes. 5 And although many Native Americans share 6 common cultural symbols such as the eagle or the sun, 7 each tribe would be encouraged to adopt an official 8 insignia that is distinguishable from that used by 9 other tribes. 10 But with today's technology, maintaining a 11 list of these official tribal insignia on a database 12 should not be difficult. 13 If the Patent and Trademark Office is able to 14 catalog the official insignia of the United States and 15 of each state and of each municipality and foreign 16 nation as presently provided in the law, then it does 17 not seem that difficult to add to that the official 18 insignia for the tribes and pueblos that wish to adopt 19 official insignia. 20 The third issue you asked to be addressed was 21 Impact of Changes in Current Law or Policy. 22 And there's no doubt that a change in current 23 law and policy, in my view, is needed. The only 24 question is: What change will best protect the rights 25 of Native Americans and preserve the integrity of each CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 11 1 tribal nation? 2 What's become apparent, I believe, is that the 3 official insignia of tribal governments is not 4 currently protected by any law. 5 It's also become apparent that economic 6 development by tribes could be hindered unless we act 7 to deal with this. 8 Current law should be amended to protect 9 official and tribal insignia from being trademarked by 10 others for commercial gain. 11 As I've tried to look into this issue, I've 12 discovered the extent to which the Native American 13 names and symbols and images have been appropriated by 14 other non-Native Americans for commercial gain. 15 The appropriating of those names and symbols 16 and images continues and it will continue unless the 17 Patent and Trademark Office and/or the Congress take 18 some action to deal with this issue. 19 The impact on Native Americans, if we do 20 nothing, could be much more severe than the impact on 21 others if we choose to act. In New Mexico, all of the 22 pueblos and tribes are seeking to become economically 23 viable and their culture and their history is essential 24 to much of that development. 25 If we continue to allow companies and private CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 12 1 enterprises not affiliated with the tribes and the 2 pueblos to trademark products, for example "Zia 3 Popcorn" or "Navajo Bead Company" if they are not 4 officially tied to the tribe in some way, we threaten 5 the economic opportunities for those tribes and 6 pueblos. 7 If trademark law was intended to prevent 8 consumer confusion, which is one of the purposes of the 9 trademark law, as I understand it, and to assure 10 purchasers a certain level of quality in what they buy, 11 failing to prevent the misappropriation of Native 12 American names and symbols is contrary to the intent of 13 that statute. 14 In fact, I suggest there is an inherent 15 consumer confusion if a food product manufactured by 16 non-Native Americans in Delaware would be called 17 Pojoaque Peanuts. That would be not only detrimental 18 to consumers, it would certainly be detrimental to the 19 Pojoaque Pueblo here in New Mexico. 20 Although I have been using hypothetical 21 products in discussing this, the possibilities are 22 endless and they are occurring on a regular basis. 23 This country's fascination with native 24 history, Native American history and culture has at 25 times benefitted Native Americans but, more recently, CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 13 1 has threatened the culture and economic viability of 2 each nation. 3 So protecting the official tribal insignia may 4 impact a few existing trademarks, but the failure to 5 protect official tribal insignia from being trademarked 6 will continue to negatively impact more than 500 7 tribes. 8 The fourth item you asked me to address was 9 the Impact of the Prohibition on Federal Registration 10 and New Uses of Official Insignia. 11 Prohibiting federal registration of trademarks 12 identical to official insignia of Native American 13 tribes should, at a minimum, confer certain benefits on 14 the tribes: 1) should provide the tribal government 15 with evidence of ownership of the official tribal 16 insignia, 2) should prevent others from trademarking 17 the official tribal insignia for use in commerce, and 18 3) should provide the tribal government with federal 19 jurisdiction to challenge an unauthorized user of that 20 insignia. 21 In order to accomplish these goals, we need to 22 be innovative and think through all of the various 23 possible issues in drafting of regulations or 24 legislation. I believe the testimony you're going to 25 hear today will help you to do that. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 14 1 As you know, we have the Native American 2 Graves Protection and Repatriation Act that Congress 3 passed in 1990. It was intended to recognize Native 4 American culture and protect cultural property. 5 We have the Indian Arts and Crafts Act, which 6 was passed back in 1935 and later amended in 1994, 7 which had an economic foundation as it has sought to 8 provide a market for contemporary arts and crafts by 9 assuring the authenticity of arts and crafts made by 10 Native American people. 11 Both of these laws were passed because of the 12 recognized need to protect the cultural identity of 13 Native Americans and the economic development 14 opportunities of Native Americans; and modifying the 15 trademark law to protect official tribal insignia is 16 the next step, as I see it, in recognizing the status 17 of each Native American Tribe. 18 You asked about Administrative Feasibility of 19 doing this, a change in this regard. 20 I don't believe the cost of changing current 21 law or policy would be significant compared to the 22 benefit that would be derived. 23 You asked about the Timing of Changes in 24 Protection. 25 I think whether or not the suggested changes CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 15 1 should be offered prospectively or retroactively will 2 require a deeper analysis of the issue. I don't really 3 claim to know the answer on that. 4 On the issue of Statutory Changes. 5 As you know, when I began to look into this, 6 we sought to amend the Lanham Act. I still think this 7 is the right thing to do to provide some protection for 8 official tribal insignia. 9 However, as I learn more about the 10 trademarking process and the extent to which tribes 11 have already participated in the trademarking process, 12 it became clear that some tribes have already 13 trademarked their insignia for use, commercially. 14 And any action that you take as a result of 15 this study, or any action recommended to Congress, 16 should take into account the Native American Tribes 17 have already sought protection under the existing 18 trademark law, so, any modifications to existing law 19 obviously should in no way prevent tribes that have 20 trademarked their insignia from using such insignia in 21 the stream of commerce. 22 In conclusion, I'm confident that you will 23 hear a great deal of useful testimony today. 24 Current law protects the official insignia of 25 states, municipalities and foreign governments. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 16 1 The flag of New Mexico is protected by the 2 Lanham Act and, as you know, the Lanham Act does not 3 prevent others from using the Zia symbol as portrayed 4 on the New Mexico flag, but it does prevent others from 5 trademarking the identical insignia. 6 I encourage you to offer the same protection 7 and respect for the flags and official insignia of each 8 of the five-membered state- and federally-recognized 9 tribes in the country. 10 Again, let me just thank you, Commissioner 11 Dickinson, and your colleagues for traveling to New 12 Mexico for this hearing. 13 Congressman Udall has joined us here and I'm 14 honored to have his strong support in this effort in 15 the Congress and we look forward to the results of your 16 study and then to determine what action the Congress 17 should take. 18 Thank you very much. 19 MR. DICKINSON: Thank you very much. 20 SENATOR BINGAMAN: Did any of you have 21 questions of me? 22 (Applause) 23 SENATOR BINGAMAN: Okay? 24 MR. DICKINSON: Thank you. 25 SENATOR BINGAMAN: All right. Thank you CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 17 1 very much. 2 MR. DICKINSON: Thank you for being here 3 and we appreciate your strong leaderership on this 4 issue and guidance -- 5 SENATOR BINGAMAN: Thank you. 6 MR. DICKINSON: -- as we do our study. 7 And as everyone noticed, Congressman Udall has 8 arrived and we also welcome him and welcome his 9 comments, as well. 10 CONGRESSMAN TOM UDALL: Thank you. 11 Well, let me first, like Senator Bingaman did, 12 welcome all of you to New Mexico. It's wonderful to 13 have you here and I think that not only should you do 14 this hearing but I hope you have the opportunity to 15 travel a little bit in the rest of New Mexico and see 16 some of our pueblos and other beautiful sites in New 17 Mexico. 18 Let me, first of all, deal with the issue of 19 the definition since I know that you've asked about 20 that and I think Senator Bingaman has come up with a 21 very good one there. I think that's a good start. 22 I also, today, want to hear about what tribal 23 representatives have to say with regard to the 24 definition. But I think that's a good start and I 25 think that's the way we should proceed. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 18 1 Let me begin my remarks by first thanking 2 Commissioner Dickinson for hosting this hearing and 3 Senator Bingaman for his leadership on this important 4 issue. 5 In particular, I want to thank Commissioner 6 Dickinson and Senator Bingaman for arranging for this 7 first hearing on trademark protection for official 8 insignia of federally- and/or state-recognized Native 9 American Tribes to be held here in New Mexico, home to 10 23 recognized tribes, 18 of which are in the 3rd 11 Congressional District which I represent. 12 I think it is extremely important and 13 meaningful that we have started this process here where 14 it is essential to the lives of so many people, many of 15 whom will represent themselves and their thoughts on 16 this issue before you here today. 17 The issue of protecting the official insignia 18 of Native American tribes is, at its core, an issue of 19 equal rights and respect for sovereignty of Native 20 American people. 21 It is an issue whose time has come, only one 22 of many steps we must take to fulfill our obligation to 23 the Native American people both as sovereign nations 24 and as American citizens and it is increasingly an 25 important issue as the commercialization of Native CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 19 1 American symbols continues each day at an seemingly 2 unbridled pace. 3 Because of this, it is important that we 4 explore this issue both carefully and thoroughly but 5 also expeditiously as we provide tribes with the basic 6 level of protection they deserve. 7 While there are many fine points of this issue 8 to be explored, I will try to be brief and focus my 9 comments on the critical need for this protection. 10 The finer points of this issue I will leave to 11 be explained best by the many tribal representatives 12 and expert witnesses we have here and throughout the 13 country waiting to comment. 14 I want to add that I personally look forward 15 to learning more about their thoughts on this issue. 16 First, let me express my belief that official 17 tribal insignia deserve the very same level of 18 protection provided to other recognized governmental 19 agencies such as states and municipalities and also 20 foreign entities. 21 We must remember that recognized Native 22 American tribes are sovereign nations and, with their 23 own equally legitimate systems of government, are 24 equally deserving of protection under the law. Not 25 extending the same level of protection, to officially CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 20 1 protecting insignia of tribes that is lent to state 2 flags and city seals, is patently unfair. 3 Moreover, as I briefly mentioned before, the 4 commercialization of Native American symbols is a 5 readily apparent reality in the country. 6 And The New Mexican, today, I think did an 7 excellent job at highlighting two examples with regard 8 to the Zia symbol. 9 We have had, in the last year, two companies 10 attempt to trademark the Zia symbol. One, the American 11 Frontier of Motorcycle Tours Company has attempted to 12 trademark the Zia symbol and, also, a pharmaceutical 13 company has tried to trademark the Zia symbol. So this 14 shows the need for us to move expeditiously. 15 While many of these cases are not 16 appropriations of official tribal insignia, considering 17 this growing popularity, the growing popularity of 18 Native American goods, foods and culture, it is likely 19 only a matter of time before an unprotected tribal 20 insignia is misappropriated either intentionally or 21 unintentionally. 22 Considering Native American people's own 23 economic development endeavors, a threat of such 24 misappropriation could also entail very real economic 25 consequences by allowing others to capitalize on the CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 21 1 popularity of insignia typically associated with 2 particular tribes, such as Zuni jewelry or Santa Clara 3 pottery or the Zia symbol. 4 In fact, as I'm sure the Patent and Trademark 5 Office is already aware, several tribes have already 6 filed lawsuits against businesses or individuals for 7 misappropriating tribal symbols for commercial ventures 8 or products. 9 While I did commit myself to being brief and 10 leaving details of such protection to be defined most 11 appropriately by tribal representatives and other 12 expert witnesses, I do want to make three short 13 comments on the feasibility of such protection before 14 concluding. 15 First, I believe that such protection can 16 actually be accomplished without much additional cost 17 in terms of changing or implementing the law. 18 It should be a rather simple effort to 19 register tribal insignia in much the same way as state 20 and local government insignia are registered. And, as 21 such, the additional cost and the process should be 22 minimal. 23 Second, on the question of such protection, on 24 whether such protection should be applied 25 retrospectively, I generally believe that the most CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 22 1 critical need today is to protect any further 2 misappropriation of official tribal insignia. 3 With that said, then I believe the greatest 4 need for action is for prompt registration and 5 respective protection of official tribal insignia. 6 I also want to stress that I do not think it 7 is in anyone's interest to have blatantly improper past 8 misappropriation of tribal insignia go unaddressed. 9 However, I also agree with Senator Bingaman's comment 10 that serious thought must be given on how such matters 11 should be addressed. 12 And, finally, any proposed resolution to this 13 issue needs to be designed so as not to jeopardize any 14 commercial trademark registered by Native American 15 tribes or prevent tribes from redefining and protecting 16 currently registered tribal trademarks as official 17 insignia. 18 In some instances, tribes have already 19 registered official tribal insignia as commercial 20 trademarks both to protect the insignia as well as to 21 use it for commercial branding. 22 And, as such, these tribes might potentially 23 face some problem in terms of designating their 24 official insignia. This would be precluded by the 25 insignia's previous registration as commercial CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 23 1 trademarks or would jeopardize the registration of the 2 commercial mark; therefore, due consideration should be 3 given to the appropriate handling of this matter. 4 Once again, let me thank Commissioner 5 Dickinson for holding this hearing in our fair State of 6 New Mexico and Senator Bingaman for his notable 7 leadership on this issue. 8 It has been an honor and a pleasure to testify 9 on this issue. I look forward to continuing my work 10 with all of you and especially with Native American 11 people that I have the good fortunate to represent. 12 Thank you very much. 13 MR. DICKINSON: Thank you very much, 14 Congressman. 15 (Applause) 16 MR. DICKINSON: Thank you for your 17 presence here today, as well. Thank you. 18 What we'd like to do now, if the folks would 19 move the mike back, is to invite up the witnesses in 20 groups so that we can hear from all of you and 21 hopefully do it in a expeditious way and also maybe to 22 give some opportunity for questions and colloquy going. 23 Let me invite up now Governor Amadeo Shije of 24 the Zia Pueblo. 25 (Applause) CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 24 1 MR. DICKINSON: And Governor Malcolm 2 Bowekaty of the Zuni Pueblo. 3 (Applause) 4 MR. DICKINSON: Is Mr. Talache here? Let 5 me just see who is here, by the way. Is Mr. Talache 6 here? [Nambe Pueblo] Would you mind coming to the 7 witness stand, as well? 8 Thank you. I've never appeared before two 9 Governors before, so I don't know, actually I'm 10 unclear; but I'm quite honored to have you both here 11 today. 12 Would Governor Shije mind going first? We'd 13 appreciate that. 14 GOVERNOR AMADEO SHIJE: Thank you. 15 Thank you, Commissioner Dickinson and members 16 of the Patent and Trademark Office. 17 Before I go into my testimony I would like to 18 introduce to you members of my pueblo who have come out 19 today. There are Elders of our pueblo. There are also 20 young people as well as some of my fellow officers. 21 So if the people from Zia would, behind me, 22 stand up or raise their hands, it would be appreciated. 23 (Approximately 30 stand. Applause) 24 GOVERNOR AMADEO SHIJE: Members of the 25 Committee, I am Governor Amadeo Shije from the Pueblo CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 25 1 of Zia. 2 I have come to you to give testimony 3 concerning the amendment of the Trademark Act to 4 prohibit registration of the official insignia of 5 Native American tribes. 6 I am here to speak on behalf of the Pueblo of 7 Zia - Zia is a federally-recognized tribe - and to 8 speak about the Zia sun symbol and its importance to 9 the people. 10 I understand you had made some comments in as 11 far as how we should follow the outline but I will 12 leave that outline to the legal people behind me who 13 will speak on behalf of the Pueblo, mainly because it 14 is often hard to explain Indian cultures and issues in 15 western legal terms. 16 Although the Zia sun symbol is certainly the 17 official insignia of the Pueblo of Zia, it is much more 18 because long before Columbus landed on this continent, 19 long before the United States was founded and even 20 before the presence of the Europeans and even before 21 the Trademark Act was implemented and since time 22 immemorial, the Zia sun symbol existed. 23 The Zia sun symbol was and is a collective 24 representation of the Zia Pueblo. It was and is 25 central to the pueblo's religion. It was and is a most CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 26 1 sacred symbol. It represents the tribe itself. 2 The tribal government has both used the three- 3 and four-pronged sun symbol always pursuant to the 4 permission of the religious elders. 5 The Pueblo of Zia is a very religious pueblo. 6 In the early 1640s, there were approximately 7 15,000 Zias living in five distinct villages. We 8 survived the atrocities at the hands of the Spanish and 9 Mexican governments. 10 By the late 1800s, the population was less 11 than 100 Zias. Today. As I speak, we are over 850 12 strong. 13 The Pueblo of Zia is here, and that our 14 culture is still alive is testimony to our physical and 15 cultural and, above all, spiritual strength and 16 strength of the symbol that we hold sacred. 17 Our religion is intertwined with every aspect 18 of our lives, including our government. The Zia sun 19 symbol is so important that it is not discussed, 20 described outside the village's ceremonies. 21 It is therefore difficult to meet fully the 22 requirements of the public testimony that the Patent 23 Office requires. 24 Nevertheless, besides me and an elder of our 25 tribe, our Tribal Administrator and even a very young CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 27 1 member of our tribe will testify today. And following 2 them, will be two of our pueblo attorneys. They will 3 discuss the technical terms of what you request here 4 today. 5 The Zia sun symbol is essential and 6 fundamental to the identity of every member of our 7 tribe. It is important that the Trademark Office not 8 officially condone and thereby encourage its commercial 9 usage and appropriation by others. 10 Our Tribal Council passed a Resolution 11 declaring the three- and four-pronged Zia sun symbol as 12 an official insignia of our tribe. 13 To the Pueblo of Zia, four is a sacred number, 14 as it is to many of our Native American tribes. 15 It recalls the four directions. The four 16 seasons. The four phases of a day - sunrise, noon 17 evening and night. And the four stages of life - 18 childhood, young/youthhood, adulthood, and old age. 19 As part of this testimony, we will submit 20 examples of our official use of this symbol over past 21 decades and over past centuries, as well. 22 But it is much, much more than that to our 23 people. I understand that the Trademark Act has long 24 prevented federal registration of the flag or coat of 25 arms or other insignia of the United States or of any CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 28 1 other state in the United States or even of any foreign 2 nation; it prohibits federal registration of symbols 3 which falsely suggests a connection with beliefs and 4 national symbols or brings these symbols into contempt 5 or disrepute. 6 What our tribal members and our pueblo 7 government ask today is very little; that the Trademark 8 Act treat us just like any other governmental entities 9 and without these United States, just as the Senator 10 and Representative mentioned today - We have to do 11 something about curtailing this influx of usage of the 12 symbols. 13 I know there are other symbols that are 14 important to other tribes. These tribes will speak for 15 themselves about this. It is not my place to discuss 16 the official insignia and symbols which identify other 17 pueblos and tribes. 18 But I will say that the injury that my people 19 have suffered from the disrespectful use of the Zia sun 20 symbol has been very, very deep. 21 The history of the European in this continent 22 has been a long history of unauthorized taking. We are 23 in the beginning of, I hope, a different frame of mind. 24 I do not see how the Trademark Office in good 25 conscience can give a person, foreign to our nation, CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 29 1 the right to use our symbol on a chemical fertilizer or 2 a porta-pottie or whatever business or service he is 3 peddling. 4 Under the existing law, other governments in 5 this country are protected from such an affront. 6 I understand that there are separate statutes 7 protecting the Boy Scouts' insignia and the Red Cross. 8 Even using western logic alone, without using any kind 9 of compassionate understanding of our culture and our 10 way of life, the official insignia or symbols of the 11 sovereign tribes should be protected as much as the 12 symbol or insignia of municipalities, states, foreign 13 states and so forth. 14 I thank Senator Bingaman and Representative 15 Udall and the Congress of the United States for 16 perceiving the logic of amending the Trademark Act to 17 prohibit registration of the official insignia of 18 federally- and/or state-recognized Indian Nations. 19 I thank you on behalf of the Pueblo of Zia for 20 the courtesy of understanding that we are citizens of 21 the United States and that the symbols of our 22 governmental entities should be given equal treatment. 23 I urge the Congress and the Trademark Office 24 to make right and amend the legislation that neglects 25 the existence of Native American governmental entities, CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 30 1 our insignias and our identities. 2 These are my statements and I thank you very 3 much. 4 MR. DICKINSON: Thank you very much, 5 Governor. 6 Are there any questions from the panel? 7 We have had some registrations brought to our 8 attention that were rejected and eventually abandoned 9 for the sun symbol and maybe this is a question later 10 for your attorneys; but I'm curious if there are others 11 that we may not be aware of and may not have been 12 brought to our attention, that should be brought to our 13 attention that would be of particular concern to you. 14 GOVERNOR AMADEO SHIJE: I am not aware of 15 that at this time but what I will do is, when my Tribal 16 Administrator speaks and gives his testimony, maybe he 17 can answer that question for you. Okay. 18 MR. DICKINSON: Thank you very much. 19 Governor Bowekaty. Did I pronounce your name 20 right? 21 GOVERNOR MALCOLM B. BOWEKATY: Yes, it 22 is. Before I start, I'd like to give you a copy of the 23 report and give you an opportunity to review it. 24 First of all, I'd like to thank the two 25 Senators that were here, Mr. Bingaman, and The CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 31 1 Honorable Senator Redmond [CONGRESSMAN UDALL]; but, 2 also, my colleague, Mr. Shije. He's an eloquent 3 speaker. 4 It is certainly an honor and a privilege to 5 present my people's thoughts on the new law. This is 6 the Pueblo of Zuni's official statement and testimony 7 on Public Law 105-330. 8 Let me preface by sharing experiences of my 9 people in valuing protection of tribal artistic 10 expression and designation of ownership. 11 For my Zuni people, as well as for countless 12 other Native American tribes, our seals, our flags, our 13 phrases have deep cultural and religious significance. 14 Deep thought, consideration and artistic merit was 15 exercised by our Zuni people prior to adopting the 16 insignia. 17 If you look at the letterhead and the business 18 cards, you'll know what I'm talking about. 19 The discrete design elements on our Zuni 20 tribal seal incorporate centuries-old identifying 21 markers. 22 For example, our ancestors used the four- 23 pointed star to designate Zuni handiwork, religious 24 paraphernalia and boundary markers. This also is a 25 source of pride that is collectively owned and shared. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 32 1 Therefore, the process currently proposed is 2 new, yet, the realities of commerce and marketing have 3 taught harsh lessons for our people. 4 My people have been cheated and duped from 5 inuring financial gain by unscrupulous merchants and 6 thieves who duplicate and cheapen fine craftsmanship in 7 the form of Zuni jewelry, pottery and kachina carvings. 8 Protecting my people's livelihood and their 9 artistic expression by whatever means possible is 10 paramount. Protecting our cultural heritage is the 11 obverse side of the same coin. 12 With trepidation, we need to explore, 13 experiment and apply federal law and policy in 14 protecting images, icons and artistic expressions. 15 But we also reserve the right to secede, if it 16 does not work for our interests, because we have seen 17 the paper tiger of the "Indian Arts and Crafts Act". 18 The definition of "Official Insignia". 19 The duly elected and duly authorized Tribal 20 Governors, Chairmen or Presidents and the Tribal 21 Councils must be the determiners of what constitutes 22 the official insignia of the Native American tribe. 23 The official insignia may be a tribal seal, a tribal 24 phrase, or both, a stamp, a banner, a flag or a 25 painting. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 33 1 A Tribal Council Resolution adopting such 2 insignia should be part of the documentation. 3 The fundamental point is, the tribes 4 themselves define, determine and submit an "official 5 insignia" or "insignias" to the Patent and Trademark 6 Office. 7 The Patent and Trademark Office must consult 8 with each tribe to seek submission of its official 9 insignia. 10 As to the question of Establishing and 11 Maintaining a List of Official Insignia, it must be 12 incumbent on the Patent and Trademark Office to consult 13 with officials of each Native American tribe. 14 Subsequently, an initial submission period for 15 tribal insignia should be defined whereby a database 16 can be established or the forerunner to an "Official 17 Principal Register of Tribal Insignia." 18 This trial period should facilitate an orderly 19 and voluntary inclusion by tribes to protecting their 20 insignia if they so desire. 21 Furthermore, the Patent and Trademark Office 22 will then be able to review and identify similar 23 insignia that may be problematic or questionable. 24 It must be the Patent and Trademark Office's 25 responsibility to research similar insignia to CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 34 1 determine if infringement of tribal insignia occurred. 2 In the future, by requiring Tribal Council 3 Resolutions adopting their official insignia as part of 4 the documentation, this risk should be eliminated. 5 Procedures that allow modifications, 6 amendments or cancellations to the principal register 7 will then be easily accomplishable. It will also allow 8 tribes to evaluate if this process is meritorious or 9 fraught with ambiguity. 10 Looking forward, this process will allow 11 future state or federal recognition of tribes to 12 participate in the Act as, no doubt, they will be 13 recognized tribes. 14 Once an "Official Principal Register of Tribal 15 Insignia" is defined and finalized, the Patent and 16 Trademark Office should reverify every 10 years. 17 Sending out the register to each tribe will 18 allow a dynamic process to occur and protection 19 mechanisms to be integrated or developed if warranted. 20 Only the duly-authorized tribal leaders may 21 amend, update or cancel the insignia register. This 22 will assure protection and the integrity of the 23 database. 24 As to the "Current Impact in Changes". 25 Any changes that protect official tribal CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 35 1 insignia are positive. Well-meaning and unscrupulous 2 people have already infringed on tribal insignia; 3 therefore, any sanctions that are explicitly protective 4 of tribal expression, language and images can only 5 strengthen the prohibition of copying "Official Tribal 6 Insignia" - unless duly authorized by the specific 7 tribal leaders or Tribal Council. 8 Here in New Mexico, my colleague, Mr. Shije, 9 has already talked about the Zia Pueblo. Zia Pueblo 10 has already undertaken protracted and expensive 11 litigation on the infringement of their tribal "sun" 12 symbol without much success. 13 Had this law been in place, a trademark search 14 would have uncovered trademark infringement on Zia 15 Pueblo's "sun" symbol. 16 Another example, drawing from the diversity of 17 experiences that we all have, is from my pueblo, Zuni, 18 where my people are famous for exquisite works of 19 turquoise jewelry. 20 Our people hoped that, with the Indian Arts 21 and Crafts Protection Act, the protection of insignia 22 and artistic expression would be protected, let alone 23 the name of our tribe, "Zuni". This wasn't so. The 24 Act required posting country of origin of jewelry and 25 specified "Indian Handmade." CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 36 1 However, a city in the Philippines 2 incorporated their town as "Zuni, Philippines", not 3 "Zuni, New Mexico." 4 This has allowed infractions to continue 5 without a means to enforce copyright or trademark 6 infringement laws. 7 I am sure you have heard similar stories or 8 you will hear similar stories during these field 9 hearings. 10 We also have another example; the term, the 11 word "Zuni", as in the name of our tribe. Yet, it is 12 patented and trademarked by the Patent and Trademark 13 Office and it has been renewed and, unfortunately, this 14 has no relation to our tribe because it is an oil 15 company. 16 Those are some of the examples that we want to 17 talk about and that actually underscores the point that 18 I will make further on. 19 If the law will designate duly-authorized 20 tribal officials to determine insignia and govern the 21 use of protected insignia for their tribal members, the 22 law will have teeth and will protect tribal interests. 23 In fact, enforcement of prohibition or 24 trademark infringement will be easier since authorized 25 users will be listed on the "Official Principal CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 37 1 Register of Tribal Insignia." 2 A mere phone call to the Tribal Chairman, 3 Governor or President will verify if the individual or 4 company is a bona fide user. 5 As to the current trademark owners of similar 6 tribal insignia, a process to determine the true owner 7 can be created or undertaken through the judicial 8 process. Either way, a cleaner list will be created of 9 the officially-designated tribal insignia. 10 The critical player in this is you gentlemen 11 and ladies - the Patent and Trademark Office. If 12 appropriate tribal consultation and input is sought at 13 the outset, there should be no insurmountable problems. 14 Listening to the frustrations of tribal 15 leaders and their practical experiences ought to define 16 for you very realistic and very feasible solutions. 17 You already have mechanisms and procedures in 18 place to effect this law. You need only to consider 19 the support and allegiance of the Department of Justice 20 and the Department of Interior to expedite the 21 registration process and enforcement of trademark 22 infringement. 23 I do not have an answer to the ramifications 24 of the U.S. obligations in the international arena, but 25 the obligations must continue because a lot of the CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 38 1 enforcement infringements are taking place. 2 We also want to underscore the fact that there 3 are not enough Customs agents out there to really 4 enforce the issues. 5 On the Impact of Prohibition on Federal 6 Registration and New Uses of Official Insignia. 7 As mentioned before, by designating duly- 8 authorized tribal officials and Tribal Councils to 9 determine "official tribal insignia," they will govern 10 and license new users on behalf of their people if they 11 desire. 12 In cases of tribal seals, they already know 13 who are honest users and bona fide users, allow them to 14 continue practices that have worked. 15 Add to their competency by protecting, through 16 federal law, their cultural heritage and pride, as 17 exhibited through their insignias. 18 Current trademark owners of identical or 19 similar insignia must have some documentation to 20 justify their design creation. If not, then a 21 fundamental integrity question arises. These are best 22 addressed through the court system, preferably in 23 tribal courts or other courts of competent 24 jurisdiction. 25 Again, it is becoming more obvious that the CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 39 1 Patent and Trademark Office is being defined as the 2 gatekeeper and watchdog for potential violations. 3 I believe the Patent and Trademark Office is 4 just now defining a new niche in protection of tribal 5 sovereignty and a Trust responsibility heretofore 6 unrecognizable. I believe this law has unforeseen 7 benefits for Native American tribes. 8 Administrative Feasibility. 9 As with any new law, some expenses must be 10 incurred. The lack of protection for tribal insignia 11 for years must now be borne by the federal government. 12 I believe it is not expensive relative to lost revenues 13 or costs of litigation by tribes who have suffered 14 under the absence of federal trademark protection. 15 In relation to this, the Pueblo of Zuni has 16 estimated a loss of anywhere from eighty to $60 million 17 a year from the infringement by those unscrupulous 18 companies that cheapen the craftsmenship. 19 Native American tribes already experience 20 bearing the costs of laws and subsidizing 21 administrative costs for federal programs or agencies. 22 This is nothing new to us. 23 Tribes can best lower the costs of enforcement 24 for new users who infringe on insignias or help in the 25 identification of unauthorized trademark users. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 40 1 In terms of Timing of Changes in Protection. 2 Native Americans have experienced extreme 3 losses and some minimal gains during a retrospective 4 application of exerting their aboriginal land uses in 5 the United States Land Claims Commission era. 6 The Pueblo of Zuni asserts that a prospective 7 application of the changes in the scope of the law and 8 policy will alleviate costs and allow potential 9 infringement issues to be worked out amicably - if 10 there is such a term. 11 I need to underscore this point by 12 re-emphasizing the role of tribal officials as 13 paramount and their power and authority to determine 14 tribal insignia. 15 Only by allowing tribes to be proactive 16 partners in this process will we eliminate undue costs 17 and effect a workable law. 18 In summary, I wish to reiterate key 19 recommendations for my concluding remarks. 20 First. Tribal leaders must be the sole 21 determiners of what is their tribal insignia. 22 Second. The Patent and Trademark Office must 23 proactively consult with Native American tribes to 24 create a process for submission of insignia and the 25 creation of a database. This foundation is very, very CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 41 1 critical. 2 Third. The Patent and Trademark Office must 3 reverify or update periodically the insignia list with 4 Native American tribes to ease enforcement costs and 5 support duly-designated users of tribal insignia. 6 Fourth. A new role for Trust responsibility 7 by the Patent and Trademark Office is becoming obvious; 8 therefore, other federal departments with experience in 9 Trust obligations to Native Americans must be consulted 10 to expedite a feasible implementation plan for the law. 11 The Pueblo of Zuni supports the intent and 12 offers their assistance in defining procedures to 13 assist tribes protect and exhibit their cultural 14 heritage. 15 Thank you very much. 16 MR. DICKINSON: Thank you very much, 17 Governor. Let me ask you a question. 18 GOVERNOR MALCOLM B. BOWEKATY: Yes. 19 MR. DICKINSON: You would regard this 20 [letterhead seal] as your official insignia; is that 21 correct? 22 GOVERNOR MALCOLM B. BOWEKATY: Yes. 23 MR. DICKINSON: Have you attempted or has 24 this been registered with us as a trademark, as well? 25 Because you do have an opportunity for doing that. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 42 1 GOVERNOR MALCOLM B. BOWEKATY: Well, 2 we're in the process right now, because we are 3 exploring economic development opportunities, and we 4 realize that, if not, therefore, we are looking at that 5 process currently. 6 MR. DICKINSON: Thank you. Any other 7 questions? Thank you again. 8 GOVERNOR MALCOLM B. BOWEKATY: Thank you. 9 MR. DICKINSON: Appreciate it. 10 Mr. Talache. 11 MR. TOM F. TALACHE, JR.: Yes. Good 12 morning, ladies and gentlemen. I have been asked to 13 yield a couple of minutes of my time to the children of 14 Zia. 15 Ms. Martinez, is that correct? 16 MS. GLENABAH MARTINEZ: From the tribe, 17 yes. 18 MR. TALACHE: Okay. 19 MR. DICKINSON: Sorry? 20 MR. TOM F. TALACHE: Sir, I've been asked 21 to yield a couple of minutes of my time so the children 22 can read their statements. 23 MR. DICKINSON: Do you have any sense of 24 how long it might take? - so I can kind of keep a watch 25 of the time. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 43 1 MS. MICHIKO THOMPSON: I'd say four 2 minutes. 3 MR. DICKINSON: Maybe you can speak into 4 the microphone so that we can have it for the record. 5 MS. MICHIKO THOMPSON: This is written by 6 all of us that just came up. 7 We as young adults of various sovereign 8 nations would like to express our concerns about the 9 issues surrounding the exploitation of Native American 10 symbols which embody our traditional and religious 11 values. 12 As Native people, we feel that it is important 13 to be in control of our own governments, natural 14 resources, industry, schools and so on; however, we 15 must not neglect the important aspects of our culture. 16 The symbols and images within our culture are 17 just as essential to our existence as the above- 18 mentioned; therefore, we feel that we should also be in 19 control of these symbols and what they represent so 20 that they can remain sacred to our culture. 21 With the exploitation of these symbols, their 22 meaning is depleted. This, in turn, inevitably affects 23 our self-worth and sense of dignity. 24 Native American symbols have represented ways 25 of living to various tribes for hundreds and thousands CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 44 1 of years. Recently, modern society has unfairly 2 adopted these symbols for commercial and marketing 3 motives without even a remote understanding of what 4 they stand for. 5 We as Native American youth feel that it is 6 necessary for us as sovereign nations to put a stop to 7 the misuse and degradation of our native symbols. 8 The Zia sun symbol is the backbone of the Zia 9 society and represents their perspective on life. We 10 from the various pueblos feel that the exploitation of 11 certain symbols, such as the Zia emblem, is very 12 degrading to the Zia culture. 13 We also believe that it is inappropriate to 14 misuse this symbol because it fails to reveal the true 15 sacred and religious knowledge that the emblem 16 represents. It has been taken out of its original 17 context and assimilated into the superficial world, 18 which again contributes to a loss of meaning. 19 The symbols of the Native American people 20 represent our whole way of life. These symbols have 21 many different meanings pertaining to our culture. 22 A symbol can relate stories about creations 23 and legends passed down through grandparents to 24 grandchildren throughout history. 25 The above statements are perspectives from CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 45 1 young Native American adults representing four 2 different nations: The Lakota Nation, Nee-mee-poo also 3 known as Nez Perce, San Juan Pueblo and Eastern 4 Cherokee nations. 5 We are concerned about this issue because we 6 are aware of the fact that the outcome of this trial 7 will affect all sovereign nations. 8 In our opinion, we firmly believe that the 9 Native American emblems are sacred and should not be 10 misused for purposes other than that of which they were 11 originally created for by our ancestors. 12 I am Michiko Thompson. 13 MS. ANGELA PICARD: I'm Angela Picard and 14 I'm Nez Perce. 15 MS. MORNINGSTAR GARCIA: My name's 16 MorningStar Garcia from San Juan Pueblo and Eastern 17 Cherokee. 18 MR. KEVIN PACHECO: I'm Kevin Pacheco 19 from San Juan Pueblo. 20 MR. CHUCK ARCHAMBAULT: I'm Chuck 21 Archambault. I'm from the Lakota Nation. 22 MR. DICKINSON: Thank you very much. 23 Thank you for your testimony today. 24 Mr. Talache, you now have about 10 minutes. 25 MR. TOM F. TALACHE: Oh. Okay. Thank CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 46 1 you. 2 MR. DICKINSON: Mr. Moreno is included in 3 this one on testimony so you can, each, take five 4 minutes. 5 MR. TOM F. TALACHE: Okay, sir. All 6 right. 7 Good morning, honorable ladies and gentlemen. 8 My English name is Tom Felix Talache, Jr. 9 My great grandfather, shortly after my birth, 10 gave me the name "EH-WHO-WATSEEDET-TAMBEE" which, in my 11 native Tewa language, means Cloud Bird Sunrising. 12 I was appointed this part February by my Tribal 13 Council to serve my tribal nation, Nambe Pueblo, as 14 Lieutenant Governor. 15 Nambe has a very long history. Our nation is 16 almost 700 years old. Recorded history, of course. We 17 have a much lengthier history which predates the 1300s. 18 I have been asked by the Executive Director of 19 the Eight Northern Indian Pueblos Council, Mr. Bernie 20 Teba, to offer some comments on the issues surrounding 21 tribal insignia, trademarks, et cetera. 22 Eight Northern Indian Pueblos Council is a 23 non-profit organization that serves the eight Indian 24 Pueblos located north of Santa Fe. 25 Please note the following disclaimer: My CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 47 1 comments today do not represent specific concerns or 2 formal positions of any one particular tribal nation or 3 nations that are amongst the Eight Northern Pueblos; 4 however, I have been asked to speak in general terms on 5 the matter and encourage this process. 6 This is a very new issue that I have very 7 recently been asked to look at and provide comment for, 8 so I am not certain what all the concerns are relating 9 to this obviously very important issue. 10 The New Mexico State Office of Indian Affairs 11 encouraged me to review a related Public Law as a basis 12 in preparing my testimony on this issue, and that was 13 Pueblo Law 101-644. [The Indian Arts and Crafts Act of 14 1990] 15 This law goes on to state that it is unlawful 16 to offer or display for sale, or sell any good, with or 17 without a government trademark in a manner that falsely 18 suggests it is Indian-produced, an Indian product, or 19 the product of a particular Indian or Indian Tribe or 20 Indian arts and crafts organization resident within the 21 United States. 22 Though this law is specific to the protection 23 of Indian arts and crafts, this law not only addresses 24 and protects an important issue, I believe it provides 25 an appropriate model in which there can be additional CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 48 1 regulation to include protection of Native American 2 Indian trademarks, logos, insignias, symbols and so on, 3 whether they come from governmental or private Native 4 American Indian citizens. 5 My recommendation would be that any regulation 6 developed should include some of the oversight and 7 protection provisions as outlined in Public Law 101-644 8 and that it should also include protection for entities 9 found both on and off tribal lands. 10 I say "off tribal lands" as well, because 11 protection should be extended to Native people as they 12 have, in most instances, dual citizenship. 13 Not only are they citizens of the United 14 States of America, additionally they are citizens of 15 their respective tribal nations, as well. 16 We are thankful that this issue is being 17 discussed formally, that the same consideration that is 18 extended to other nations outside the United States is 19 being extended to our respective Indian Nations found 20 within the borders of this country. 21 We are hopeful that the trademarks that are 22 produced by our Native American Indian entities and 23 individuals will be given equal protection as those of 24 other nations. 25 For example, we see that various corporations CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 49 1 from nations throughout the world promote their 2 products, goods and services in this country. 3 Their individual logos, symbols, trademarks 4 and designs are displayed, such as Mercedes Benz, BMW 5 and on and on, and no American entity will utilize it, 6 for certainty of penalty. 7 Additionally, we welcome continued dialogue to 8 further protect the interests and creativity of the 9 tribal nations and the American Indian peoples of this 10 country because, for many, the logos and such that they 11 design are a product of prayers, visions, legends, oral 12 tales, an innovative thought that is unique to an 13 individual person or is a culmination of ideas shared 14 by more than one person, something that has been shared 15 that collectively has been incorporated into a design 16 of something that represents a connection to that 17 collective synergy, or connection to something that has 18 historic or cultural significance and becomes a 19 permanent unchanging design. 20 The logo produced for the Eight Northern 21 Indian Pueblos Council is a perfect example. This is 22 their logo [indicates document]. 23 This organization was formed over 25 years ago 24 and the logo that was designed has gone unchanged and 25 will remain unchanged for as long as the organization CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 50 1 exists. 2 It is imperative that these very positive 3 discussions continue between tribal governments and the 4 United States Government. 5 Furthermore, we are thankful that the current 6 leadership of the United States Government is 7 approaching this issue with respect for our concerns as 8 is evident by the dialogue that we have today. This 9 will certainly prove to begin to develop positive 10 solutions for this issue. 11 I would like to extend my personal 12 appreciation to President Clinton for signing Public 13 Law 105-330, Title III, which continues to set a 14 positive precedence in dealing with this issue that is 15 an important and worthwhile one for our tribal nations. 16 Lastly, I would like to thank this panel for 17 your personal time and commitment to this issue and for 18 allowing our input into these discussions. 19 With that, I ask that the remainder of my time 20 be given to Mr. Fidel Moreno who serves the Indian 21 community as the President of the American Indian 22 Chamber of Commerce of New Mexico. 23 Thank you. 24 MR. DICKINSON: Thank you very much, Mr. 25 Talache. Mr. Moreno. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 51 1 MR. FIDEL MORENO: I'd like to say Good 2 Morning to the pueblo relatives and friends that are 3 here and especially to the Zia community elders and 4 young people that spoke this morning. 5 I'd like to also say Good Morning to you and 6 Thank you for traveling here and doing all the work 7 you're doing. 8 On behalf of the American Indian Chamber of 9 Commerce of New Mexico, I'd just like to express that 10 we have some very strong concerns but also support the 11 dialogue that's going on here today and, as you will 12 hear for the rest of the day, there are some deep 13 concerns about the marketability for use of American 14 Indian themes, images, symbols. 15 And just to give you some concrete, quick 16 examples, you know, in the auto industry, the use of 17 the Winnebago, the use of the Cherokee Jeep, the use of 18 the Navajo truck. 19 You know, if people would really understand 20 that those are all names that were given to these 21 Native people by either their enemies or Europeans and 22 don't really reflect how they identify themselves, on 23 one hand we're promoting a lot of ignorance by allowing 24 that kind of marketing and PR to go on in the industry. 25 But nonetheless it happens because we don't CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 52 1 have laws that protect the cultural, intellectual, 2 historical properties of Indian people and I think this 3 is a good step in creating a dialogue so that people 4 just can't come and take what is very dear and sacred 5 to us. 6 My profession is, I'm a film maker. I've been 7 doing documentaries for the last 17 years, since 1982, 8 and I've worked with people like Robert Redford, Kevin 9 Costner and, in that time, I've also worked on and done 10 a lot of documentaries for Indian tribes. 11 And I just wanted to express that in working 12 with over 75 tribes in documenting their oral 13 histories, there was a lot of protocol and ceremony 14 involved in hearing their stories and working through a 15 lot of very sensitive issues about what they wanted to 16 go out to the public and what they wanted to keep in 17 their communities. 18 So a lot of times, people do not understand 19 that, who were not brought up in a Native American 20 culture, a Native American society; and I think that 21 it's a good step to bring about this kind of dialogue 22 so you can hear the kind of respect that exists, deep 23 respect for the oral histories. 24 As you know, a lot of our cultures are built 25 on millennia, old traditions of oral histories where we CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 53 1 have very specific information about land, about 2 natural resources, about relationships, relationships 3 with each other, relationships with The Creator, and 4 those are all very sacred. 5 To give you an example of that, I worked on 6 the NAGPRA issue and one of the problems that many 7 tribes have is that one of the requirements in the 8 NAGPRA issue - The Native American Grave Protection and 9 Repatriation Act - is that the only people that can 10 talk or discuss some of the critical issues that define 11 what is sacred are the spiritual leaders of those 12 communities and only within the context of ceremony and 13 not putting it in writing and not putting it out for 14 public awareness. 15 So one of things that I'd just like to share 16 with you is that you may come across some of that, 17 those same circumstances in this. 18 But I think that as you have seen in the 19 American Indian Religious Freedom Act, the NAGPRA and, 20 now, this amendment that you're going to do, the tribal 21 leaders, Chairmen, Governors are willing to work with 22 you, are willing to work with you in a very positive 23 and proactive dialogue to come to some understanding on 24 how to address this issue. 25 So I just wanted to say that on behalf of the CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 54 1 American Indian Chamber of Commerce, that we would also 2 like to work with the Governors and also the committee 3 on this important issue. 4 I want to say Thank You again. Good Morning. 5 MR. DICKINSON: Appreciate it very much. 6 Thank you. 7 (Applause) 8 MR. DICKINSON: I'd like to get a little 9 more in depth with some of the legal issues as well. 10 Could I invite -- 11 Well, next on our list is Mr. Polese from the 12 New Mexico Book Association, so I'd like to invite him 13 up, as well. 14 Also, would Ms. Boulware from the AIPLA be 15 prepared to testify morning? 16 And also Governor Shije mentioned that some of 17 his attorneys were present here today. Is that Ms. 18 Price here? Mr. Mielke? Is that right? 19 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: Yes. 20 MR. DAVID MIELKE: Yes. 21 MR. DICKINSON: Would you mind both 22 coming up to the counter, as well? I know you were 23 scheduled for a little later on this afternoon but I 24 wanted to talk a little bit more about some of the 25 specifics. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 55 1 Why don't we start with Mr. Polese. Mr. 2 Polese, you have about 15 minutes. 3 MR. RICHARD POLESE: Thank you. 4 I'm President of the New Mexico Book 5 Association, which is non-profit. It serves most 6 professionals throughout the state. 7 But the reason why I'm here is because of my 8 research into what we now know as the Zia sun symbol, 9 specifically. I worked for the Museum of New Mexico 10 for eight years and did most of this work back in the 11 late 1960s. 12 Everyone in New Mexico embraces it, but not 13 many people are aware just where the popular so-called 14 New Mexico Zia sun symbol comes from. 15 I researched the origins of this design while 16 employed by the Museum of New Mexico. My findings were 17 published in El Palacio, the Museum's journal, in 1968; 18 and in the years since, I've collected hundreds and 19 hundreds of examples of variations of this wonderful 20 design. 21 The Zia sun symbol, as we have come to know 22 and love it, was designed by Dr. Harry P. Mera in 1925 23 as part of a contest for a new state flag. 24 Dr. Mera, a Santa Fe physician and 25 archeologist, was inspired by a sun depiction on a Zia CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 56 1 Pueblo pot in the Indian Arts Fund collection of the 2 Laboratory of Anthropology. 3 And this is what -- Can you see this up here, 4 this graphic I hold? 5 His simple and elegant design was accepted by 6 the Daughters of the American Revolution and as the 7 design and -- Just a moment here. 8 This pot itself was probably made a little 9 before the turn of the last century but probably in the 10 19th Century, and the Mera design, however, is not a 11 copy of that design and as some people apparently still 12 believe. 13 Anyway, here's the background on how it came 14 to be. 15 The women in the New Mexico Daughters of the 16 American Revolution held a contest starting in about 17 1920 for a new state flag. And the old flag was really 18 pretty dreadful. It had New Mexico kind of going 19 diagonally like this, and it had the American flag 20 here, and it was absolutely not very good. 21 Not satisfied with the entries they received 22 for the new flag, they turned to Dr. Mera; and his 23 simple and elegant design was accepted and his wife 24 Reba sewed the first flag. 25 It was inspired by Pueblo art, crafted in its CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 57 1 final form by an Anglo, and displayed in the red-and- 2 yellow Spanish royal colors. The flag was an instant 3 hit and a source of great pride for all New Mexicans 4 because it so closely and eloquently reflected the 5 essence of the whole state. 6 The sun insignia, as it appeared first on the 7 flag, is a simple circle with four groups of four rays. 8 The sun on the Zia Pueblo pot is suggestive but 9 markedly different in several respects. 10 The Zia pot's suns, and there's one on each 11 side of the pot, it's about 10-and-a-half inches in 12 diameter, depict a face inside two circles. Its twelve 13 stubby rays number three in each group, the middle one 14 of which being much thicker than the two that flank it. 15 The face is surrounded by a ring of lines, resembling 16 hair. It is a stunning and beautiful design but it is 17 not the official New Mexico sun symbol. 18 This is a photocopy of a photocopy. I don't 19 know how well it shows up here but it's a little closer 20 view of one of the two suns on that Zia Pueblo pot. 21 Some years ago, a flyer about the state's sun 22 sign was made available to visitors at the State 23 Capitol in Santa Fe. This imaginative piece ascribed 24 mystical meanings to the four groups of four rays. 25 However, these attributes don't predate Dr. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 58 1 Mera's design due to the fact that the sun symbol on 2 the flag had 16 rays only when they were drawn on there 3 by Dr. Mera. There are just 12 rays on the Zia Pueblo 4 pot design. 5 And, of course, there are other sun symbols 6 from that region that have varying numbers of rays. 7 They usually go in four directions. 8 The flyer and the wording of the state statute 9 establishing the new flag may have been responsible for 10 misunderstandings about the famous symbol. 11 The 1925 Legislative Act describing the flag - 12 And the reference to that is Number 4-14-2 - refers to 13 the Mera insignia as the "ancient Zia sun symbol." 14 This wording was likely added to honor our Indian 15 cultures as well as lend a little drama and romance 16 which was very typical of that era. 17 However, the design described by the law is 18 exactly that of the one on the flag designed by Dr. 19 Mera and sewn by his wife. 20 Moreover, no evidence is given that would 21 support such a claim of antiguity. A close look at the 22 historical and archeological record shows no examples 23 of the simple four groups of four rays with an 24 unadorned circle "sun" design in the vicinity of Zia 25 Pueblo, at least not before 1925. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 59 1 To be certain, there are celestial depictions 2 of the sun, stars, and the planet Venus in the 3 post-1300 rock art of the Keres-speaking region, 4 depictions similar to those found in other areas of the 5 Southwest. 6 According to Polly Schaafsma, a respected 7 scholar in the field of Southwestern rock art, most 8 examples of the sun and of Venus have a face in the 9 center. Sometimes, there are rays all around the 10 circle, usually short. Most often, there are four 11 rays, sometimes eight. 12 Many "sun shield" depictions have multiple 13 "rays," often like little triangles around a circle. 14 And I'll show you a couple of these examples of those. 15 Ms. Schaafsma is not aware of any examples 16 from this area that have four groups of four rays 17 within a circle without a face. 18 And the reference to that is her book "Rock 19 Art of New Mexico" revised 1992, and "Rock Art of the 20 Cochiti Dam Project" papers in Anthropology Number 16. 21 Suns with rays appear in various cultures all 22 over the world. And a few I have seen are actually 23 closer to Dr. Mera's design than the one on the 24 particular Zia Pueblo pot. 25 Nevertheless, that's where Dr. Mera found his CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 60 1 inspiration and he was careful to make the final 2 design, one that would be universally embraced by 3 everybody in New Mexico. 4 It seems quite clear that this sun symbol, by 5 whatever name it may be called, belongs to all the 6 people of the state, not merely a single tribal or 7 commercial organization. 8 The official salute to the state flag is: 9 "I salute the flag of the State of New 10 Mexico, the Zia symbol of perfect 11 friendship among united cultures." 12 Now, if not all of us have attained that high 13 ideal, it is certainly something for us to aim for, for 14 every person who would call himself or herself a New 15 Mexican. 16 Here is -- I have copies of my remarks in my 17 original article that I did for El Palacio on the table 18 back there and also there's other information from the 19 state statute. 20 I'll entertain some questions. Is that it? 21 MR. DICKINSON: Any questions? 22 MR. POLESE: No? 23 MR. DICKINSON: Okay. Thanks very much. 24 We appreciate it. 25 MR. POLESE: I just wanted to show these. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 61 1 These are a few of the rock art depictions here in New 2 Mexico, what are either used or considered the sun or 3 perhaps Venus, or, considered suns of Venus. 4 This one up here is post-1300. I don't know 5 where it came from. But it's one that's in one of our 6 chapters. 7 But this one is from Black Mesa, in the Tewa 8 area up here, the San Ildefonso Pueblo. 9 And these two here are from the Cochiti Dam 10 area, which is the Keres-speaking area, which would 11 include Zia Pueblo. 12 Thank you. 13 MR. DICKINSON: Thank you. 14 We'll hear now from -- And I appreciate your 15 allowing us to take a slightly different order from the 16 original. 17 We're pleased to have a friend of the PTO 18 here, Meg Boulware, who's the President of the American 19 Intellectual Property Law Association and at least a 20 part-time New Mexico resident. 21 Pleased to see you here today, Meg. 22 MS. MARGARET A. BOULWARE: Thank you. 23 Thank you very much, Commissioner Dickinson. 24 I don't know if Senator Bingaman is still here 25 but I'd like to urge for your confirmation as CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 62 1 Commissioner at this time. 2 I'd also like to thank Commissioner Dickinson, 3 Eleanor Meltzer and others from the PTO and commend 4 them for having hearings on this very important issue 5 in Albuquerque, New Mexico. 6 I'm President of the American Intellectual 7 Property Law Association which is a national 8 association, that its primary objective is enforcing 9 intellectual property rights for all people in this 10 country and we have very strong appreciation for the 11 rights of creators and authors. 12 I'd also like to address the trademark issues 13 that are brought up at this hearing. 14 There are many other issues that are being 15 discussed including tribal religious issues, and I'm 16 certainly not qualified to speak on those issues, but I 17 would like to thank the Commissioner and the PTO for 18 being included with these distinguished panel speakers 19 and the others who have spoken before me. 20 I am a part-time resident of the State of New 21 Mexico and one of the great attributes of this state is 22 the cultural diversity and the recognition of heritage 23 in this state that I think we all want to share and 24 want to promote in the future. 25 Part of the American Intellectual Property Law CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 63 1 Association, the AIPLA's request to the PTO was to have 2 hearings so that those of us who may not be as educated 3 on these issues could have an opportunity to be 4 educated and we requested having hearings outside 5 Washington, D.C. and we were very glad that our 6 recommendations were undertaken. 7 One of the reasons we requested these hearings 8 was that the AIPLA wanted to hear from those involved, 9 what they considered their official insignia, so that 10 there could be an understanding of the official 11 insignia. 12 One of the comments I'm going to make today 13 that's not in my prepared testimony is that I think 14 I've already been educated on that fact. I've heard 15 quite a bit of it, starting with Senator Bingaman, 16 concerning the fact that most of our Native American 17 tribes and pueblos do have recognizable insignia for 18 their use, for their official use. 19 And we have encouraged the PTO working with 20 any other government agencies, that they feel would be 21 appropriate, to attempt to collect those official 22 insignia that are used. 23 In our comments, we noted that official 24 insignia of states and other countries are generally 25 self-limiting. They're the insignia that are used on CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 64 1 official seals, official correspondence. 2 And from our discussions this morning, it is 3 apparent to me that, at least to a large degree, there 4 is similar usage here in New Mexico and perhaps 5 elsewhere in the country and we believe that collecting 6 and identifying the official insignia will go a long 7 way to having appropriate protection for those official 8 insignia in the same way that official insignia of 9 other states and governmental entities are recognized 10 by the Patent and Trademark Office. 11 One issue that was brought up that I do not 12 think, as a trademark attorney, should be 13 problematical, that any Native American registrations 14 that have already been received should not be affected 15 by a proposal to protect the Native American tribal 16 insignia. 17 Those trademarks that were validly procured 18 should certainly maintain their integrity and I can't 19 imagine that there would be an issue with going forward 20 with that. 21 Another issue that has come up that I believe 22 is separate and apart from the Native American insignia 23 protection is product authenticity. 24 I found it quite frankly disturbing that - And 25 I had read this before - that there was a city in the CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 65 1 Philippines that had incorporated under the Zuni name. 2 I had read about that, living here in New 3 Mexico, and the comments I'd like to provide on that 4 is: The U.S. trademark laws, as they stand, does have 5 a remedy for product authenticity. Counterfeit goods 6 are a problem for many reputable, high-quality product 7 sources. And, unfortunately, the Native American 8 community appears to be the victim of counterfeit goods 9 or unauthentic goods. But we do have the current 10 trademark laws that do try to protect against that. 11 Of course, it's up to the trademark owner to 12 enforce their remedies in federal courts; but I have 13 found the federal courts to be sympathetic to 14 legitimate trademark owners when there is a passing off 15 of counterfeit goods and I understand that that's an 16 issue. 17 Also, in some of the discussion, there has 18 been another type of passing off and that would be 19 products that are geographically misdescriptive - Like 20 I know where Pojoaque is - and a Pojoaque product that 21 came from New Jersey would be a geographically 22 misdescriptive designation. And our Lanham Act, our 23 Trademark Act, does provide that marks that are 24 geographically misdescriptive cannot be registered and 25 if the marks are registered for any reason, they can be CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 66 1 subject to cancellation. 2 A number of the issues that are brought up 3 today are issues that, quite frankly, my association is 4 very interested in - very interested in, period - 5 regardless of where the transgressions come from and we 6 would certainly support very strong trademark rights 7 for any American citizens. 8 The issue of the tribal insignia I think is 9 one that certainly can be dealt with, with perhaps a 10 minor change in the Lanham Act, to recognize that there 11 are Native American governments that do have official 12 insignia and, from the testimony today, if it's 13 consistent throughout the country and there's 14 identifiable insignia, we believe that they can be 15 collected. 16 I also agree with one of the earlier panelists 17 that it would be very good, once a collection is made, 18 to have it available in the digital world. 19 We can have it on-line so anybody who wants to 20 check what insignia is protectable, the Patent and 21 Trademark Office has a very good website with a 22 searchable database and we would encourage that a list 23 be circulated in digital form so that it could be 24 received by those on the internet. 25 At the same time, the AIPLA urges that the CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 67 1 Native American tribal insignia should not receive 2 certainly no less but no more protection than the other 3 insignia that other states and nations and 4 municipalities currently enjoy. 5 As far as changes to the Lanham Act or changes 6 to our Trademark Act, the AIPLA's position is that 7 certainly today is the first day of the fact-finding 8 and we would encourage the PTO to continue to gather 9 information and determine what changes need to be made. 10 We're not suggesting any changes at this time 11 because, quite frankly, we hadn't had the benefit of 12 the hearings and we think that any changes should be 13 suggested after the benefit of these hearings and 14 consistent with - however consistent with the AIPLA's 15 position - that Native American insignia certainly are 16 entitled to protection. 17 One of the things I want to also emphasize; as 18 you, the PTO officials know, is that the PTO is a 19 government agency that's responsible for federal 20 registrations. It does not monitor infringing use. 21 However, the PTO does protect against registrations of 22 trademarks that are in conflict with the federal law. 23 And, also, if a registration is issued, then 24 the PTO also has cancellation proceedings whereby an 25 injured party can come to the PTO and cancel a CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 68 1 registration. 2 And I think we need to understand that if the 3 PTO does has a registry for Native American insignia, 4 it will review applications that are filed and 5 determine if those applications conflict with the 6 insignia. 7 The issue of use would have to be dealt with 8 by parties in federal litigation because the PTO at 9 least at this time is not authorized to issue 10 injunctions across the country for infringement issues 11 but those certainly are handled in our federal courts. 12 And I hope I'm not running over my time. 13 But one of the issues that I did want to bring 14 up that the speaker just prior to me brought up, I do 15 think that the Zia sun symbol seems to be in a class 16 almost by itself. 17 It was one of the first symbols when I drove 18 into New Mexico for the first time that I saw and it 19 appears to be very problematical. 20 I believe that retroactive or/and even 21 perspective changes in the law with the Zia sun symbol 22 is going to be an issue that is going to be a very 23 difficult one, particularly since it is an emblem of 24 the State of New Mexico, that this is going to be one 25 of those difficult issues that Senator Bingaman alluded CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 69 1 to. 2 And certainly the AIPLA does not have a 3 specific position on that, although we would say that 4 we do have, with the use of that symbol since, I 5 believe, 1925 in the flag and elsewhere, there are a 6 number of people who have been using that. 7 There are constitutional issues on taking and 8 we think that that's going to be a very -- that will be 9 a thorny issue to deal with and perhaps different from 10 some of the others. 11 And thank you very much. I hope I didn't run 12 over too much time. 13 MR. DICKINSON: Thank you, Ms. Boulware. 14 We appreciate it, as always. 15 We turn now to either Mr. Mielke or Ms. Price. 16 Who would prefer to go first? 17 Is it possible we could -- I know that you're 18 both attorneys representing the Zia Pueblo. Do you 19 have distinguishing testimony? Or would you like -- 20 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: Yes. 21 MR. DAVID MIELKE: Yes, we do. 22 MR. DICKINSON: We would like to save 23 some time for questioning while Ms. Boulware is here, 24 as well, because it's kind of the legal issues that 25 need fleshing out. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 70 1 MR. DAVID MIELKE: Well, good morning, 2 and welcome to New Mexico. I'm sure, given the recent 3 weather in D.C., you wish you would've moved up these 4 hearings a few days. 5 (Laughter) 6 MR. DICKINSON: We're still here. 7 MR. DAVID MIELKE: We're very happy that 8 you decided to start the hearings here in New Mexico. 9 My name is David Mielke and I'm General 10 Counsel to the Pueblo of Zia. 11 As attorneys for the Pueblo of Zia, our firm 12 has witnessed, firsthand, the pain and frustration that 13 the tribe has experienced when a symbol, like the sun 14 symbol, of enormous religious, cultural and historical 15 significance that has been used by the Tribe literally 16 for ages is appropriated and used by others for 17 commercial and, as was just pointed out, for 18 governmental purposes. 19 This has repeatedly occurred without any 20 regard to the effects of such use on the pueblo and 21 with no current means of effectively stopping such use. 22 And given these circumstances, it's apparent 23 why the tribal representatives that you've heard from 24 today, and will hear from later on, feel as strongly as 25 they do about this issue. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 71 1 The federal government has a Trust 2 responsibility to protect and prudently manage tribal 3 resources. 4 I submit that this Trust responsibility 5 applies not only to the protection of tangible 6 resources such as land, minerals and the like, but also 7 to intellectual and cultural property interests of 8 tribes, particularly in this day and age when such 9 symbols are increasingly popular and used for 10 commercial purposes. 11 And a symbol such as the Zia sun symbol is 12 such a unique mark of their culture, their religion, 13 their heritage and identity, that it's incredibly 14 painful for them to see how it's used - apart from the 15 state's use of it which is a difficult and somewhat a 16 very unique and separate issue - but to see the 17 commercial use of it is incredibly painful for the 18 tribe. 19 So this effort to give some protection to 20 tribal insignia is welcome and appropriate and, we'd 21 submit, long overdue. 22 We've heard earlier from both the Senator and 23 the Congressman about how federal law currently 24 protects the flag or coat of arms or other insignia of 25 the United States or of any state or municipality or CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 72 1 any foreign nation. 2 There's no legitimate reason for federal law 3 not affording the same protection to our First 4 Americans and our first governments. 5 Doing so will not only permit the federal 6 government to fulfill its Trust responsibility to 7 tribes but will help avoid costly and unnecessary 8 litigation such as that fought a few years ago by the 9 Pueblo of Zia against a chemical fertilizer/pesticide 10 company seeking a trademark registration for the sun 11 symbol. 12 As I think some of you are aware, that ended 13 up -- that litigation established no useful precedent 14 because the company subsequently withdrew its 15 application. 16 With respect to the Burden Issue, as others 17 have testified today, there are only approximately 500 18 recognized tribes; and even in the unlikely event that 19 all sought to register and protect their tribal 20 symbols, it would certainly not be a great 21 administrative burden on the Patent and Trademark 22 Office to accept and catalogue these. 23 This is particularly true in this day and age 24 of computers when they can be catalogued, they can be 25 put on the internet and they can be readily checked CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 73 1 against applications. 2 And I submit a process by which the tribes 3 formally adopt their insignia by Tribal Resolution, 4 send a copy of their insignia along with that Tribal 5 Resolution to the Patent and Trademark Office, is a 6 reasonable way of registering and protecting these 7 marks. 8 I've mentioned earlier Zia's interest in this 9 legislation is unique because of the widespread 10 commercial and governmental use of its symbol. 11 To add further insult to injury, the sun 12 symbol is frequently used in combination with the word 13 "Zia". This not only is offensive but it gives 14 serious -- creates the very real possibility, if not 15 reality, of consumer confusion. 16 Zia Cement, for example, Zia Mobile Home 17 Sales, Zia Pest Control, Zia Motor Lodge, and Zia 18 Carpet Care, to name a few, are all business that use 19 the name Zia and the sun symbol but are not, 20 unfortunately, tribally-owned businesses. 21 As we've also heard and we all know, the Zia 22 sun symbol is also the symbol of the State of New 23 Mexico and has been so for years. 24 Apart from disputes as to whether the state 25 symbol was based on the Zia design, the state and the CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 74 1 tribe in recent years have begun discussions with the 2 objective of trying to reach an agreement for the 3 state's use of the sun symbol. 4 Last year's Legislature endorsed, or, 5 introduced a Joint Memorial which passed the House and 6 the requisite Senate Committee but unfortunately failed 7 to reach the Senate floor before the legislative 8 session ended. 9 In New Mexico, they have brief legislative 10 sessions and there's frequently a mad rush at the end 11 to try to get legislation through and, as in years 12 past, this issue did not get to the final -- did not 13 get to the Senate floor before it adjourned. 14 But under this Memorial was provided a process 15 whereby the tribe would negotiate directly with the 16 state for such an agreement on the use of the sun 17 symbol. 18 Subsequent conversations and dialogues with 19 state officials including representatives of the 20 Governor's Office have been encouraging and we are 21 optimistic that a legislative resolution, supported by 22 the Governor's Office, to address this longstanding 23 issue will be forthcoming. 24 I note, with irony, the state's adoption of 25 the sun symbol as the state's symbol creates a CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 75 1 situation whereby the State of New Mexico's use of the 2 Zia sun symbol is protected but the Pueblo of Zia's use 3 of their own symbol is not. 4 With regard to the issue of Retroactive 5 Application, I think the Zia's and the State of New 6 Mexico's recent efforts to work out an amicable 7 resolution are indicative of how this issue should be 8 addressed. 9 Past misappropriations should not be 10 sanctioned, rather they should, misappropriators 11 should, have an incentive to reach an amicable 12 resolution with the tribe whose symbol they have used 13 for commercial gain. 14 Lastly, I want to thank - Even though they're 15 not here anymore - Senator Bingaman for his highly 16 commendable leadership on this issue and the courage he 17 has shown. 18 I also want to thank Congressman Udall for his 19 presence and support here today. 20 Both have shown that they are willing to stand 21 up on an issue where moneys and powerful interests 22 frequently are allied against tribes. 23 Thank you. 24 MR. DICKINSON: Let me ask you a quick 25 question before we move on. Has the Zia Nation adopted CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 76 1 an official insignia? 2 MR. DAVID MIELKE: Yes, they have by 3 Tribal Resolution adopted the sun symbol as their 4 official insignia. 5 MR. DICKINSON: Could we have a copy of 6 that today? 7 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: Yes. 8 MR. DAVID MIELKE: Yes, we do have a copy 9 of that with us today. 10 MR. DICKINSON: Of the official insignia? 11 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: I have a group of 12 documents. I thought I was going to testify after 13 lunch, but I have a group of documents we're going to 14 submit to you, demonstrating the use of the Zia sun 15 symbol by the Pueblo and I'll be giving that to you 16 after lunch. 17 MR. DICKINSON: Okay, but let me just ask 18 a question: So has there actually been an official 19 adoption of an official insignia, a formal adoption of 20 an official insignia by the -- whoever the governing 21 body of the Indian Nation is? 22 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: Yes. 23 MR. DAVID MIELKE: Yes, there has. 24 MR. DICKINSON: Have they sought to 25 register that as a trademark? CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 77 1 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: No Because they, 2 they, they're -- 3 MR. DICKINSON: I'm sorry. Ms. Price, 4 why don't you go ahead and, and -- Thank you very much. 5 Is this the -- 6 MR. DAVID MIELKE: That's the Tribal 7 Council Resolution, I presume? Yes. 8 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: Yes. 9 MR. DICKINSON: And so the official 10 insignia is the sun symbol as well as the wording 11 "Pueblo of Zia" around it? 12 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: No. 13 MR. DICKINSON: What is the official 14 insignia? 15 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: The Zia sun symbol. 16 MR. DICKINSON: Just this? 17 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: Yes. And later 18 today, I will submit fire hats from the -- pictures of 19 fire fighting hats from the 1950s which have only the 20 symbol on it and various pictures of the tribal 21 buildings, -- 22 MR. DICKINSON: But my question concerns 23 what -- how we will define "official insignia" and 24 getting to that issue -- 25 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: Right. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 78 1 MR. DICKINSON: -- and that complexity. 2 I noticed, for example, that the one we had earlier 3 from the Zuni Pueblo is a far more complex insignia 4 with a number of elements and some wording on it. 5 And I'm just trying to get to the 6 understanding of what the official insignia of the Zia 7 people is. 8 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: Yes. 9 MR. DICKINSON: Or, the Pueblo is. And 10 you're telling me that it's this three-pronged sun 11 symbol -- 12 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: Three- and four- 13 pronged. It's been used in -- 14 MR. DICKINSON: There's more than one 15 official insignia? 16 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: They are -- As an 17 official insignia of the Zia sun symbol, sometimes it 18 has three prongs, sometimes it has four. 19 MR. DICKINSON: So if you made a request 20 to register an official insignia, you'd register more 21 than one; is that correct? 22 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: It would be 23 fundamentally a Zia sun symbol; one with three and one 24 with four. 25 MR. DICKINSON: Let me just say, for the CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 79 1 record, I might've done that; in 1994, our office sent 2 out and sought -- we sought to contact every 3 federally-registered Native American tribe so that we 4 can get a handle on this question sometime ago. 5 My understanding is, we've never done this for 6 any other group before and but we'd be pleased to do 7 it. 8 We apparently sent out some 500 letters and we 9 received about 10 responses. 10 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: And one of those 11 responses was from the Pueblo of Zia. 12 MR. DICKINSON: One was from the Pueblo 13 of Zia? Okay. Ms. Price, why don't you proceed. 14 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: I have a lot of 15 ground to cover here. I'd like to address both the 16 technical bullets that were listed in the PTO notice 17 and I'd also like to address -- Can you hear me okay? 18 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Sure. 19 MR. DICKINSON: Are you okay? Can you 20 hear in the back all right? 21 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yeah. 22 MR. DICKINSON: Okay. 23 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: And I'd also like to 24 address some of the difficulties listed by some of the 25 potential opponents to amendment to the Trademark Act. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 80 1 And also, I would in brief like to mention 2 that the Tribal Administrator, Peter Pino, is going to 3 address some of the issues concerning the use of the 4 four-pronged and the three-pronged symbol and also 5 point out that, even in scholarly research, I 6 represented the Pueblo of Zia in the opposition 7 proceeding in 1993 and we had various depositions of 8 the elder, under seal, because there's prohibition of 9 discussing the religious and symbolic uses of the Zia 10 sun symbol, but the people who did scholarly studies of 11 the use of the Zia sun symbol were not talked -- were 12 not able to talk to the elders, were not privileged. 13 They used secondary sources. They used sources 14 concerning Dr. Harry Mera's action and concerning one 15 pot in the Fine Arts Museum. 16 But that is one of the problems we have, 17 adjusting western law to another culture that has been 18 existing in this continent for many centuries. 19 Anyway, concerning a definition of Official 20 Insignia, there has been no difficulty administering 21 the statute, since in Section 1052 which protects other 22 governmental insignia, which I guess has been in 23 existence since before mid-century and I don't know how 24 the Trademark Office determines the official insignia 25 of other governmental entities, but it seems like the CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 81 1 same process would take place with the tribe. 2 In addition, other people have mentioned the 3 computer age and being able to have on-line these 4 symbols. 5 I understand, at one point, the Department of 6 the Interior came over and met with the Trademark 7 Office and your assistant; the Secretary of the 8 Interior came over and discussed this. 9 I don't believe it would take very much to 10 have one trademark librarian or one trademark examining 11 attorney who could get a handle on the list of symbols 12 and be in charge of entering it on the website and also 13 reviewing applications as they are published. 14 Concerning the Impact of the Law and the 15 Changes in the Current Law Policy, I personally, I'm 16 sure, am prejudiced but I can see no effect but 17 salutary effects that this change in the law would have 18 on Native American tribes for obvious reasons. 19 Equal protection under the law is always a 20 salutary experience. 21 A small number of trademark owners might be 22 affected but they would be saved from lengthy and 23 expensive piecemeal litigation over use of insignia or 24 official symbols of Native American tribes. 25 These trademarks owners would be no more CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 82 1 affected than those who have chosen to use marks that 2 are prohibited registration under 1052 in its present 3 form. 4 The Patent and Trademark Office would also 5 benefit by dealing with this problem directly and 6 thoroughly. 7 An increasing amount of intellectual property 8 litigation and of litigation within the Trademark Trial 9 and Appeal Board itself would be avoided. 10 What's more, the Patent and Trademark Office 11 would be acting in a way which upholds Treaty 12 obligations, - And, here, I'm talking about Treaty 13 obligations of the tribe - Supreme Court precedence, 14 and President Clinton's Executive Order that all 15 agencies evaluate their policies and procedures, 16 keeping in mind Native American interests and issues. 17 I can foresee no significant impact any of the 18 proposed changes would have on the international legal 19 obligations of the United States. 20 I have spent some time on this issue and I'm 21 aware mainly of people within - Besides the Philippines 22 which is obviously a different problem, a counterfeit 23 problem - but most issues involving the Native American 24 symbols are within the borders of the United States. 25 Moving on to the Impact of Prohibition on CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 83 1 Federal Registration and New Uses of Official Insignia. 2 The effect of prohibiting federal registration 3 of trademarks identical to the official insignia of 4 Native American tribes would be as described in the 5 previous section. 6 The tribes would be positively affected by 7 this at-long-last-equal treatment under the Trademark 8 Act. 9 In addition, Native American tribes would be 10 relieved from the extremely onerous procedural and 11 financial burden of having to fund protests and 12 opposition proceedings in the PTO and fund even more 13 expensive federal litigation in the courts in order to 14 protect the symbols that are important and essential to 15 their collective identity. 16 Individual trademark owners would also be 17 saved the time-consuming and expensive burdens of 18 litigating their claims to such symbols. 19 Non-Native American claims to these insignias 20 might ultimately be found to be secondary to the use of 21 symbols by the people who roamed this continent 22 centuries before this government existed. 23 Trademark owners who wished to use official 24 insignia of Native American tribes might decide to use 25 these marks without the imprimatur of federal CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 84 1 registration, I suppose, or more sensibly decide that 2 it would be more fitting to choose a symbol which they 3 could actually say was their own, instead of a symbol 4 they had appropriated from a Native American source. 5 There would be minimal actual effect on 6 international legal obligations and any effect would be 7 no different than the present prohibitions outlined in 8 Section 1052. 9 The Trademark Office is no doubt aware of 36 10 U.S.C., Section 4 - Protecting the National Red Cross; 11 36 U.S.C., Section 27 - Protecting the Boy Scouts; and 12 22 U.S.C., 248 - Protecting the Swiss confederation 13 coat of arms. 14 All these statutes were enacted without a lot 15 of concern to international treaty obligations and the 16 ability to administer the statutes, et cetera, et 17 cetera. 18 As to the defense of fair use, I suppose it 19 could be raised, but I am unaware of any trademark 20 owner using it successfully to entitle his use of the 21 official insignia of a municipality, state, or foreign 22 nation. The appropriation of a Native American 23 official symbol is fundamentally unfair use. 24 I've discussed the Administrative Feasibility 25 concerning a staff member and I have talked to very CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 85 1 understanding and intelligent members of the Examiner's 2 Office and I think the office has suffered from a lack 3 of squarely dealing with this problem across the board 4 because when an application comes in, an attorney or a 5 trademark librarian knowledgeable about this particular 6 seminar may not be involved with the particular 7 application. 8 Moving on to Timing of Changes in Protection. 9 No business interest should justify the 10 retention of federal registrations in official Native 11 American symbols which Congress decides should not be 12 registerable. 13 Existing federal and state law dictates that 14 non-Native American institutions divest themselves of 15 Native American property the institutions may have 16 purchased for large amounts of money. 17 And I have some cites in here. 18 Let us be clear about the taking that has 19 occurred. 20 Let us understand the two-part nature of the 21 injury to Native Americans such as the Pueblo of Zia to 22 this latter-day claim on their symbol. 23 It is not only that these recent trademark 24 "owners" have appropriated for themselves what is in 25 the Zia's case, and in no doubt other cases, an ancient CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 86 1 and enduring symbol but it is that the Zia people and 2 other Native Americans would never, never consent to 3 the use of their sacred symbol - the symbol of their 4 collective identities on commercial items. 5 How do we compare the injury to Native peoples 6 from whom the history of this country is a long tale of 7 commercial greed and a self-serving social Darwinism 8 which caused the removal of home, land, natural 9 resources, freedom, dignity, many cultures, vast 10 amounts of population and, in this case, symbols of 11 that collective identity, to the expense of a 12 businessman who might have to go through changing his 13 trademark or losing federal registration for a 14 trademark he continues to use? 15 If we are intending to right a wrong with this 16 amendment, let us see the complainants' losses in 17 perspective and let us right the wrong. 18 Concerning Statutory Changes. 19 As the Senator and Congressman have mentioned, 20 I think 15 U.S.C., Section 1052 is the logical section 21 to change. 22 Concerning Other Relevant Factors. 23 Now, moving along here. Intellectual property 24 rights and litigation of those rights are ever 25 increasing. The amendment proposed by Congress would CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 87 1 avoid costly litigation by Native Americans and their 2 tribes to rectify the failure of the Trademark Act to 3 protect them. 4 The tribal resources saved could be used in 5 hundreds of other necessary and productive ways. 6 A change in the law would acknowledge and 7 effectuate the duty of the federal government pursuant 8 to its fiduciary relationship with the Native American 9 tribes to protect the insignia of Native American 10 tribes. 11 It would avoid potential problems under the 12 Equal Protection Clause of the United States 13 Constitution created by the Trademark Act's current 14 prohibition of registration of other governmental 15 insignia and its failure to explicitly treat the 16 insignia of Native American tribes similarly and the 17 Patent and Trademark Office's current policy of 18 permitting non-Indians not associated with the tribes 19 to register tribal insignia. 20 Very briefly, to move along to some of the 21 Responses to Opponents. 22 There's a parade of "problems" that have been 23 listed. It seems like many opponents to this amendment 24 act as if neither the Congress nor the Trademark Office 25 could do the simplest thing to implement this amendment CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 88 1 without insurmountable difficulty. 2 This position ignores the fact that Congress 3 has tackled much more complex legislation and the 4 Trademark Office has administered similar prohibitions 5 and limitations on federal registration throughout the 6 existence of the Act. 7 Some opponents think it would be too difficult 8 to define "official tribal insignia." I think Congress 9 would be able to tackle this definition with the help 10 of a good dictionary. 11 Some opponents claim that it would be too 12 difficult to determine what marks were identical to 13 official tribal insignia. 14 In fact, the Trademark Office daily denies 15 applications for registrations because they are too 16 similar (not even identical) to existing registered 17 marks or because some marks that are submitted with the 18 applications fall within the ambit of the current 19 Section 1052. 20 Opponents state there is a potential for the 21 prohibition of the use of common geometric shapes that 22 are identical to official tribal insignia. This is 23 hypothesizing a problem which does not exist. 24 Unless opponents can point to a specific 25 Native American official insignia, which is a simple CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 89 1 geometric form, this is a false issue raised to 2 convince Congress that things are just too difficult to 3 change. 4 In the case of the Pueblo of Zia, I don't 5 believe any tribal member expects that circles or lines 6 would be off limits for trademark owners - just the 7 particular configuration of circles and lines which are 8 similar to the Zia sun symbol. 9 Opponents raise the specter of potential 10 violation of U.S. Treaty obligations under the Paris 11 Convention, again without giving an example of an 12 actual instance of this kind of violation. 13 Opponents raise the issue of the "potential 14 unfairness to mark owners who have used the symbols 15 previously, knowingly or not." 16 This amendment goes not to the use of a mark 17 but the acquisition of a federal right - a federal 18 trademark registration. 19 Business owners would lose federal 20 registration but could continue to chose to use the 21 mark. 22 We need to focus on a large breach - The 23 United States' breach of its Trust relationship to the 24 tribes by giving its official imprimatur of trademark 25 registration to what was a symbol of the tribal CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 90 1 collective identity. 2 The inconvenience of losing federal 3 registration is not comparable to the loss suffered by 4 the tribes by appropriation of their ancient official 5 insignia. 6 Opponents say that relief is currently 7 available under Section 1051(a) which prohibits 8 registration of immoral, scandalous, or disparaging 9 marks. 10 Here, I must digress into my war story. 11 As the attorney for the Pueblo earlier in the 12 Nineties, I conducted an opposition to the registration 13 of the Zia sun symbol by a chemical company who wished 14 to use the mark to identify fertilizers and pesticide 15 products. 16 Even at the reduced rate, for which I 17 represented the tribe, the opposition was a costly 18 undertaking. The Washington attorneys buried us with 19 frivolous discovery - asking us, for example, to prove 20 that the tribe exists, when the proof of the tribe's 21 existence is as readily available in Washington 22 libraries as it is anywhere, making us litigate a 23 three-day extension of time, refusing to agree to 24 sealed depositions of the elders about sensitive 25 religious subjects, and generally obstructing the CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 91 1 progress of the opposition in every way possible, 2 making it very expensive. 3 Of course, I won every motion we wrote. But 4 there was the writing of the motion and the response 5 and the reply. 6 Right before the opposition was to be decided, 7 the trademark applicant withdrew its application. 8 The Pueblo of Zia had spent a considerable 9 amount, by its standards, to get nowhere on this issue. 10 It is simply unrealistic and shows an utter 11 lack of understanding of many of the tribes' economic 12 situations, to think that money is available to fund 13 individual trademark oppositions. 14 This alternative is simply unrealistic and not 15 available to most of the tribes. 16 Opponents cite the potential discrimination 17 against other groups whose cultural or historical 18 symbols are not similarly protected. This objection 19 demonstrates again a lack of understanding of both law 20 and history. It seems to equate the Kiwanis Club or 21 the Welsh United States citizens with Native Americans. 22 Is there Supreme Court precedent indicating 23 that other "groups" have a special sovereign status 24 within the United States? 25 Is there another "group" which occupied the CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 92 1 United States before this country existed and had a 2 foreign government imposed upon it, on its own soil? 3 Is there another "group" from which the 4 colonizing Europeans took so much? 5 Possibly, I guess. 6 In fact, a Welsh national insignia and an 7 African official insignia are presently protected under 8 Section 1052. 9 More particularly, is there another "group" 10 that, on this soil, used some of the symbols at issue 11 in this proposed legislation long before the Trademark 12 Act existed? 13 Certainly, other racial groups have suffered 14 in this American experience. But to say that there are 15 others in a parallel situation ignores too much of the 16 history of the Native American people. 17 I think I'm going to conclude now. 18 In conclusion, I would like to quote a section 19 of the deposition of Professor Alfonso Ortiz, an 20 anthropology professor at Princeton and a member of one 21 of the pueblos of New Mexico and an anthropology 22 professor at the University of New Mexico. 23 I've included his deposition, which was taken 24 in the opposition proceeding, in some of the documents 25 and I think it would be very helpful for an CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 93 1 understanding of some of the issues surrounding this 2 legislation. 3 At any rate, Professor Ortiz has died, 4 otherwise I'm sure he would be here today and I'm sure 5 he's probably here in spirit. 6 "I think somewhere that there has to be 7 some very clear thinking on the part of 8 American courts of law about what Indian 9 people consider their most important 10 statements of identity, their sense of 11 history, their sense of community, and 12 their sense of destiny." 13 "And the Zia sun symbol is one such 14 symbol for one tribe. Every tribe could 15 put up something like this. Too many 16 have been swept away and lost in the 17 vicissitudes of history and legal 18 wrangling and, somewhere, we have to take 19 a stand and recognize that for these 20 hallowed notions like tribal sovereignty, 21 trust, guardianship, trusteeship to mean 22 anything really substantive, we're going 23 to have to throw up the line of defense 24 and help the tribes to protect that which 25 remains and is distinctly theirs, which CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 94 1 enables them to exist as communities with 2 pride and independence, after all. 3 That's all." 4 We here today ask for some of that very clear 5 thinking in the study the PTO conducts on this matter. 6 Thank you. 7 MR. DICKINSON: Thank you. Appreciate 8 that. 9 (Applause) 10 MR. DICKINSON: We may have a few 11 questions certainly for you specifically or maybe for 12 the panel to generally clarify some of these issues for 13 us. 14 One of the questions I have: My understanding 15 is, we have been now consistently rejecting many 16 registrations which have been sought, that include the 17 sun symbol, for several reasons. 18 Are you aware -- This is a question I actually 19 directed to the Governor awhile ago. 20 Are you aware of any that we may be 21 overlooking or that we have not been specifically 22 sensitive to? 23 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: I am not completely 24 up to snuff. Senator Bingaman's letter to the 25 Trademark Office came as a result of two Zia sun CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 95 1 symbols that had gone on to publication. 2 And we wrote, I wrote Mr. Hampton, and the 3 Senator wrote Mr. Hampton saying, "Hello, you know, the 4 Zia sun symbol has been, you know, registered." 5 And we received a letter back saying, "You're 6 too late." 7 I have copies. 8 MR. DICKINSON: In what respect did he -- 9 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: Well, because the 10 marks had gone on to publication. 11 MR. DICKINSON: I see. 12 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: And we had just -- We 13 had found out. We don't have a paralegal reviewing the 14 BNA publication of marks. 15 MR. DICKINSON: Well, my understanding 16 is, we had Zia's system sought for registration for -- 17 What was the business service? 18 MS. MELTZER: On Friday, a stationery -- 19 MR. DICKINSON: Computer software 20 products. 21 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: Right. 22 MR. DICKINSON: Also had the Zia or the 23 word "Zia" and the sun symbol, sought registration for 24 cocktail mixes, and both of them were rejected and are 25 now abandoned. Those are the only ones we are aware CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 96 1 of. 2 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: Yes. I believe, 3 earlier, we were discussing one for motorcycle tourism 4 in New Mexico and one for photography. 5 MR. DICKINSON: One of the questions that 6 comes up or one of the grounds for that rejection, as I 7 understand it, was that it was in conflict with the - 8 interestingly enough - with the state flag of New 9 Mexico which is also registered as a state flag. 10 Is there some way we can resolve the issue? 11 Let me ask the broader question: When there 12 are uses - And this may not apply to the Zia symbol, I 13 mean, I have to narrow it to that - but when 14 registrations are sought and we establish a listing for 15 official insignia that include elements that are 16 included in others, how would, how should the PTO 17 proceed to sort out that question? A priority? Or 18 what is the -- 19 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: You're talking about 20 two Native American tribes -- 21 MR. DICKINSON: Yes. 22 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: -- registering to -- 23 MR. DICKINSON: Or where a Native 24 American tribe would include a symbol in their official 25 insignia which was included in another official CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 97 1 insignia, say, of a state or municipality or foreign 2 country. 3 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: This is probably -- I 4 guess my logical reaction would be to have the two 5 tribes discuss this and I think they would prefer to 6 discuss this matter within themselves. 7 And probably Mr. Pino, who will talk later, 8 will discuss it. 9 But it seems to me the tribes determining and 10 resolving this issue between themselves without the 11 Patent and Trademark Office having to enter into the 12 discussion, as far as those two tribes, would be a good 13 solution. 14 MR. DAVID MIELKE: Yeah, I would agree 15 with that. You're talking about if we had two 16 conflicting tribes, as opposed to -- 17 MR. DICKINSON: (Nods head) 18 MR. DAVID MIELKE: Okay. Yeah, I agree. 19 MR. DICKINSON: Or a conflict between 20 something that was either a registered trademark, I'd 21 say, or more likely or more possibly, rather, something 22 that was the registered emblem of a foreign country or 23 of the United States or, for example, to include the 24 symbol of the United States in a tribal insignia, -- 25 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: But -- CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 98 1 MR. DICKINSON: -- kind of like a or sort 2 of like a -- 3 MR. DAVID MIELKE: Yeah. 4 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: I can't imagine 5 either situation coming up but I'd suggest that 6 probably the two governments, the two sovereigns should 7 be able to resolve those kind of questions. 8 MR. DICKINSON: Our understanding is that 9 we would also register stylized versions of flags and 10 symbols of our country and other countries, where you 11 can register a stylized version of the U.S. flag. 12 I mean how much -- how broad would you see the 13 protection that needs to be afforded under this? 14 Should it be different than it is? Or should it be the 15 same as it is? - with regard to flags and the official 16 insignia of -- 17 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: Well, I guess, and 18 I'm talking off the top of my head right now, so, it 19 seems to me that the people who register stylized 20 American flags are Americans who share some collective 21 identity with the American flag, so... 22 MR. DICKINSON: I don't know whether 23 that's the case or not. We have foreign nationals that 24 register marks, as well, all the time, so... 25 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: Right. Well, I know CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 99 1 you do. But, nevertheless, I'm willing to bet you that 2 a lot of those American flags are owned by American 3 companies. 4 And so in a certain sense, the collective 5 identity of the Americans are represented in those 6 trademark symbols. 7 I think there's a different situation by 8 stylized Zia symbols. There is still the conscious 9 suggestion of affiliation or connection with the tribe, 10 which is at the root of this problem. 11 And as you know, the term under the Trademark 12 Act is "substantial similarity." And I know if I had a 13 Nike mark and someone else did a stylized Nike mark and 14 wanted to register it, I don't believe that Nike would 15 think it was okay. 16 MR. DICKINSON: Okay. 17 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: Do you? 18 MR. DICKINSON: No, in opposing, 19 absolutely, you did I think what you understood needs 20 to be done in the circumstances you mentioned a couple 21 of minutes ago. 22 Maybe this is -- Let me ask this question 23 also: My understanding is we're dealing with official 24 insignia here; though some have raised the question of 25 word marks as well. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 100 1 Does the Zia nation take a position with 2 regard to word marks as opposed to an insignia? You 3 indicated your insignia was the design element here. 4 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: Yes. Yes. I think 5 Peter Pino, who will talk later, can talk about this 6 more. 7 But, initially, we are talking about this 8 particular legislation concerning Native American 9 insignia and, certainly, we would not like to come 10 across as: This is the only important thing to the 11 tribes. 12 And, certainly, under the existing trademark, 13 false association with a group of people is incorrect. 14 But we understand that this is a very limited 15 amendment to the Trademark Act and I don't think we 16 have to pass on whether -- I mean I think it's obvious 17 that the Pueblo of Zia doesn't like the idea of Zia 18 Porta-Potties. 19 MR. DICKINSON: Zia Porta-Pottie; using 20 the word as opposed to the official insignia. 21 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: Yes. 22 MR. DAVID MIELKE: Correct. 23 MR. DICKINSON: Has Zia sought to 24 trademark the word "Zia"? 25 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: The Pueblo Zia does CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 101 1 not, because of the sacred nature of the symbol, 2 commercial use of it is, is -- It's still something 3 that many of some of the elders find offensive. And, 4 so, use and commerce being one of the requirements... 5 MR. DICKINSON: Could we maybe address 6 more broadly the question of retroactivity? I have a 7 question that's come up as to whether or not -- How to 8 deal with that issue. 9 And as Ms. Boulware pointed out or the Senator 10 pointed out, it's a very sensitive question. It might 11 not be resolvable at this point and may require us to 12 get through all these hearings. But one of the goals 13 we have of the hearings I think is to try to flesh out 14 some of the aspects of the issue. 15 Some have raised the question that 16 retroactivity might possibly be a taking, for example, 17 that some registrations may have already occurred and 18 those registrations would constitute intellectual 19 property and therefore a cancellation that might occur, 20 as a function of this proceeding, might possibly take. 21 I don't know. 22 Again, the question I'm asking is: Can you 23 address the question of retroactivity? Can you address 24 the question of whether or not it -- 25 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: Well, I'll go first. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 102 1 MR. DICKINSON: -- might not take -- 2 MR. DAVID MIELKE: Yeah. 3 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: Well, in this 4 situation, we have a taking on top of a taking. We 5 have a taking of a Native American symbol and I 6 believe -- 7 MR. DICKINSON: I was addressing the 8 U.S. Constitution -- 9 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: Right, I understand 10 the U.S. Constitution, but I believe that it's a 11 violation of the U.S. Constitution for the Federal 12 Trademark Office to have permitted the taking by 13 businesses of Native American symbols. 14 MR. DICKINSON: I understand that, but 15 I'm still asking whether we have any examples of 16 registrations which will support that concern? 17 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: Excuse me? 18 MR. DICKINSON: We have not regis-- It's 19 my understanding we have not registered any marks that 20 include the official insignia of the Zia; is that 21 right? 22 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: Right. Right. Well, 23 I'm not sure what the status is of the motorcycle tours 24 and the photographs. 25 MS. MELTZER: I think it's still pending. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 103 1 I'm not sure either. 2 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: Okay. 3 MS. MELTZER: I'm not certain. 4 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: And I guess, you 5 know, there's always a balancing of equities. You 6 know, this particular legislation doesn't prevent other 7 people from using symbols that they've been using. 8 It just prevents them from having the approval 9 of the federal government and I'm sure you understand 10 that. 11 So I'm not sure what their registration would 12 be taking. 13 MR. DICKINSON: Ms. Boulware, could you 14 shed any light on this issue at all, any additionally 15 light? 16 MS. MARGARET A. BOULWARE: The only 17 additional light that I'd like to shed is, I don't want 18 to be more problematical on this issue, but the AIPLA, 19 first of all, we didn't know exactly what we were 20 talking about because we didn't know what the insignia 21 were. 22 We didn't know whether there were going to be 23 literally thousands of insignia that might be just 24 designs or the official insignia that we've heard of 25 today. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 104 1 So understanding that it's a limited universe, 2 so-to-speak, is comforting because I think that's what 3 it should be. It should be legitimate insignia. 4 The AIPLA does not support retroactive 5 cancellation of legitimate marks. There may be some 6 marks that are subject to cancellation because they 7 should not have been legitimately registered in the 8 first place. But we are not in favor of retroactively 9 canceling legitimate marks. 10 We'd also like to recognize that federal 11 registration owners do have to file Use Affidavits and 12 that for any of the marks that are problematical, I 13 think that the Patent and Trademark Office should 14 review those Use Affidavits very carefully to make sure 15 that these people are legitimately using these 16 trademarks and have legitimate registration and also in 17 the renewals. 18 So, that's the little bit of light that I can 19 shed on that. 20 MR. DICKINSON: I would point out, and 21 just to shed a little more light on that question, we 22 have indeed recently a very prominent example of 23 cancellation that occurred where our Trademark Trial 24 Appeal Board, of which I'm actually a statutory member, 25 cancelled a registration to a professional football CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 105 1 team which used a mark that was found to be offensive 2 under Section 2A of the Lanham Act to Native Americans. 3 That was a decision which was very thoroughly 4 considered and was supported very strongly under the 5 law as it was decided. 6 This question of international obligation has 7 been raised by some, particularly the International 8 Trademark Association, and their written testimonies, 9 there was concern about the Paris Convention, the fact 10 of this -- You indicated that that may not have been an 11 issue when the Red Cross or other specific statutes 12 were passed. I don't know whether that's the case or 13 not. 14 But leaving that particular look-at aside, can 15 you shed any light of the substantive question of 16 whether or not there's a concern about whether indeed 17 it does or does not implicate the Paris Convention? 18 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: I would have to look 19 at the issue a little more thoroughly than talking off 20 the top of my head today. 21 MR. DICKINSON: Meg? 22 MS. MARGARET A. BOULWARE: We don't 23 believe it violates the Paris Convention. 24 (Laughter) 25 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: I mean I don't CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 106 1 believe it does either but, you know, I guess I'm -- I, 2 I can't see -- 3 MR. DICKINSON: I've read the INTA 4 testimony in that regard. 5 MS. MARGARET A. BOULWARE: Yeah. We may 6 disagree with INTA on that. 7 MR. DICKINSON: Would you see a need for 8 any of the more traditional registration-type 9 mechanisms that we use in the office, in this context, 10 if we were to establish an official registry of 11 official insignia? 12 For example, opposition. Would you, could you 13 envision a circumstance where they would need to be -- 14 where official insignia would need to be published in 15 some way so that others, perhaps other Native American 16 tribes could oppose or send in material that would in 17 some way question the official insignia registration? 18 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: For other tribes 19 alone, are you saying? Within the tribes themselves? 20 MR. DICKINSON: Let me broaden the 21 question out. Do you see any circum-- Do you envision 22 any circumstances when any -- when there would be an 23 opposition-type procedure or even a cancellation-type 24 procedure for registrations on a registry of this sort 25 or of this type? CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 107 1 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: Well, perhaps this is 2 not the answer you want, but considering the culture of 3 the Native American people, I think any kind of 4 opposition, as you stated, could be better worked out, 5 for example, within some office of the Department of 6 Indian Affairs or the Department of the Interior. 7 I think that, generally, a negotiation and 8 talking, as opposed to an official opposition 9 proceeding, would be much more appropriate. 10 MR. DICKINSON: Well, we -- Well, there's 11 no answer I wanted or didn't want, -- 12 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: Right, but I see -- 13 MR. DICKINSON: -- I'm just trying to 14 make sure that we -- 15 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: I see, I believe, and 16 perhaps the representatives of the pueblo who have 17 talked already could testify, but I believe it would be 18 much less costly and probably much more efficient and 19 definitely quicker for representatives of two pueblos 20 or two tribes to talk amongst themselves about any kind 21 of conflict. 22 MR. DAVID MIELKE: There are two types of 23 symbols, I think. 24 You have the more modern created ones that 25 have been designed and then you have ones that are CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 108 1 historical and cultural in origin. 2 And I could see that maybe you'd have an issue 3 if it was a newly created or design symbol that other 4 tribes or other holders of registered marks would want 5 to have input, you know, for; you know, take the worst 6 case, if a tribe decided it wanted the Nike logo as its 7 tribal symbol. 8 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: But I don't think 9 that's going to happen. 10 MR. DAVID MIELKE: That's not going to 11 happen but, I mean, you know, -- 12 (Laughter) 13 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: I mean it's a number 14 of the hypotheticals, which I, I don't appear -- want 15 to appear sanguine, or sanguine? Which is it? 16 [pronunciations] I just don't think those problems are 17 going to exist in this context. 18 MR. DICKINSON: What if a tribal nation 19 sought to register a mark or an insignia, rather, that 20 included a red cross? 21 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: Well, I just don't 22 believe that any tribe would want to use the symbol. I 23 mean not that it has anything against it. I don't 24 believe that it would want to use the red cross. 25 And if it was a newly-done symbol that had CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 109 1 just been created, the American Red Cross could 2 obviously have a problem with it, but I don't think 3 that that will happen. 4 MR. DICKINSON: Thank you. My goal is 5 not to put you on the spot. It's really to flesh out 6 these issues -- 7 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: Right. 8 MR. DICKINSON: -- and we discussed them 9 in our office -- 10 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: Right. 11 MR. DICKINSON: -- and we wanted your 12 best counsel -- 13 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: Right. 14 MR. DICKINSON: -- and your best ideas as 15 to how we can resolve these -- 16 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: Right, and I don't 17 mean to respond by saying, "No, that's not going to 18 happen" -- 19 MR. DICKINSON: Right. 20 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: -- but within the 21 realm of reality, I guess it could happen and then 22 someone who had a newly-created symbol using the 23 American Red Cross who had no justification in past 24 cultural -- I mean the cross is -- Well, anyway, that 25 could be something that, you know, the American Red CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 110 1 Cross could object to. 2 MR. DICKINSON: Can I return to the 3 question of the word marks? Some have raised this 4 specter. 5 We've had, for example, the counsel for the 6 Oneida flatware has raised the question of whether word 7 marks that are the, I'll take it on assumption, the 8 names of tribes in the United States - would or would 9 not be protectable in this context we're talking about. 10 And they raise the specter and the concern 11 that marks which they have used for a substantial 12 period of time on goods and services would be 13 implicated with this question. 14 Do you have any thoughts on whether or not we 15 should be dealing with words, marks in this way, or 16 should we stick to official insignia? 17 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: Well, it certainly 18 would be a lot easier if you stuck with official 19 insignia at this point in time. 20 I don't think I should be able -- should speak 21 for the Oneida people or the Mohawk people. 22 I'd bet that if you inquired and sent the 23 comments of Oneida Sterling and Mohawk Carpet to them, 24 that they would have a response. 25 MR. DAVID MIELKE: And probably the CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 111 1 people from Zia should address the issue; I mean, 2 obviously, the worse case is where they use the sun 3 symbol along with the word "Zia". Not all businesses 4 use that. 5 Some are Zia process servers. I think there's 6 one that uses both the mark and the word. Others will 7 just use the word. Others will just use the mark. 8 MS. ROBERTA PRICE: And I'm not sure any 9 of those people have applied for a federal registration 10 so it's a worry definitely for us and the tribe but it 11 may not be a worry for you. 12 MR. DICKINSON: Well, I appreciate that. 13 Are there any questions, any further questions from the 14 panelists, as well? 15 MS. MELTZER: No. 16 MR. DICKINSON: Thank you very much. We 17 appreciate you taking the time and you giving us those 18 good thoughts. They'll be extremely useful to us as we 19 go through our deliberations, and they clarified some 20 issues for me significantly and I appreciate it very 21 much. 22 Is Mr. Pino here now? And could we -- I need 23 to do something in the back of the room briefly, but 24 would you mind coming and testifying now? Or would you 25 prefer to go at the 11:30 hour that you were assigned? CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 112 1 MR. PETER PINO: I prefer to go with the 2 elders from the Pueblo and with the youth from the 3 Pueblo. They're coming up. 4 MR. DICKINSON: All right. Why don't I 5 call Ms. Warledo. Is she here? Ms. Warledo? 6 MS. GERALDINE WARLEDO: Yes. 7 MR. DICKINSON: Would you mind coming 8 forward, and Mr. Panteah, would you mind coming 9 forward? I'll excuse myself for just a brief moment. 10 MS. ELEANOR MELTZER: By the way, thank 11 you for being so flexible with the schedule, so thank 12 you very much. 13 Ms. Warledo, would you like to start your 14 remarks? 15 MS. GERALDINE WARLEDO: Yes. I'm 16 Geraldine Warledo with the Cheyenne and Arapaho Tribe. 17 I'm an elected official. I started as a 18 Sergeant-at-Arms. 19 Our tribe consists of 11,000 and approximately 20 200 tribal members. In Oklahoma, we have approximately 21 7500. Those rest of the tribal members are, you know, 22 in other places. We service eight counties in 23 Oklahoma. 24 Today, we have eight business committee 25 members. At one time we used to have 14 but the Tribal CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 113 1 Constitution was revised back in the Seventies, so 2 today, we have eight Tribal Council members. We have 3 four Cheyennes and four Arapahos. 4 I would like to do a little bit of a 5 show-and-tell of our flag. Our flag's been in 6 existence for many years. Our flag, in the background 7 is the Oklahoma. 8 We had a symbol of the Oklahoma flag here 9 because at one time, it was the Oklahoma -- It was the 10 Indian state. 11 We have the arrows which consist of our 12 tribes; right now they're at peace, so that's why 13 they're facing down. 14 The pipe resembles the Arapahos. 15 We have the tepee which represents the 16 Cheyenne, our ceremony, and our Native American Church. 17 In the background, we have the three crosses 18 which represents our Veterans which they had served a 19 war - fought in World War II and the Korean War. 20 We have revised our, our -- or, these feathers 21 right here represents the 14 Council Members that we 22 were at one time. But, today, we have a new flag. It 23 has four stars on each side which represents the 24 Business Committee as of today. 25 We have the Southern Cheyenne and Arapaho CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 114 1 Tribe on it because during years past or the Medicine 2 Lodge Treaty back in 1867, we were all pushed to other 3 lands and so, some of them, we still have the northern 4 Arapahos and the Northern Cheyennes; but we had to move 5 to Oklahoma, so that's why we're called the Southern 6 Cheyenne and Arapaho Tribe. 7 Right now, we have our tribe, we serve -- we 8 have 14 programs that we serve our people with. We're 9 -- I just feel like that all Indian people are unique 10 because we have dual citizenship of the United States 11 and of our sovereign nations. 12 I really don't have really much more to say. 13 MS. MELTZER: Thank you very much -- 14 MS. GERALDINE WARLEDO: Uh-huh. 15 MS. MELTZER: -- for explaining that now 16 and for being here today. We're very grateful. 17 MS. GERALDINE WARLEDO: Okay. Thank you. 18 MS. MELTZER: Mr. Panteah? 19 MR. LOREN PANTEAH: Okay. Thank you. I 20 would like to thank the Patent and Trademark Commission 21 and Mr. Pete Domenici; Mr. Domenici for providing the 22 opportunity for tribes and individuals to express their 23 testimony in regards to trademarks. 24 My name is Loren Panteah and I'm here as 25 representing myself as a Zuni Tribal Member and as a CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 115 1 member of the Zuni Cultural Arts Council. 2 And before I begin, I would like to request 3 that I submit my written testimony at a later date 4 because we have been having some religious activity 5 back home for the last several days on that. I have 6 not had time to prepare a written testimony, so if I 7 could submit my written testimony within a couple of 8 weeks, if that's okay. But I will -- 9 MS. MELTZER: Oh, Mr. Panteah, thank you 10 for mentioning that. 11 And just to remind everybody, it certainly is 12 acceptable to submit written testimony up to and 13 including July 30th, or if anybody else has written 14 comments they'd like to provide, we will accept them 15 through July 30th. 16 MR. LOREN PANTEAH: Okay. Thank you. 17 I know that it is appropriate that as far as 18 what the hearing is about today is on official 19 insignias and because I am representing myself, our 20 Honorable Governor Bowekaty, he has represented the 21 tribe about 10:00 this morning and it is appropriate 22 that official tribal representatives provide testimony 23 at this hearing. 24 But my primary reason and efforts in 25 requesting to testify at this hearing is because of my CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 116 1 personal and my persistent effort in my overall 2 livelihood. 3 I am a Zuni jeweler and, as I stated, I belong 4 to the Zuni Cultural Arts Council and my effort has 5 been initiated since about 1996 in trying to register a 6 trademark that would provide product authenticity. 7 As you may or may not know, Zuni is 8 well-renowned for its arts and crafts and there's a 9 real serious impact to our livelihoods. I would say 10 that roughly between 60 and 80 percent of our tribal 11 members rely on their arts and crafts for their 12 livelihood. 13 And, so, it is a very serious problem for us 14 and, so, my effort is to provide at least some 15 awareness that there is a direct linkage in registering 16 our show insignias and to include symbols, variations 17 of names, designs, phrases, symbols, or some other, 18 some other things that are very distinguishable and 19 exclusive to tribes. 20 And so I wanted to provide this testimony that 21 supports any type of legislation to at least provide 22 more opportunity for tribes to register their official 23 insignias. 24 I think one of the gentlemen had stated that, 25 and also my or our Governor Bowekaty had stated that, CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 117 1 when there's any type of legislation, that tribes 2 should be consulted and I do feel that tribes should be 3 consulted. 4 And in my work experience, I'm not here 5 representing the tribe, but I do work for the Pueblo of 6 Zuni under the Zuni Heritage Preservation Office and I 7 have found out, through experience and reading up on 8 the various legislations that have to be passed, that 9 these federal laws or regulations are implemented 10 without ever consultation with tribes. 11 My assessment of such passed laws, of past 12 laws, that it seems like it's a one size fits all; but 13 there is very cultural diversity among the tribes and 14 that's why it makes it hard for tribes to respond or 15 provide input adequately and, also, the lack of, lack 16 of knowledge of these various federal laws. 17 So, in particular, with trying to do something 18 in regards to trademarks, tribes should be consulted so 19 that their input can be provided and so that it doesn't 20 provide any prohibitive efforts in the future as far as 21 registering trademarks whether they be official 22 insignias or symbols or other designs. 23 Under what definition that I have from a 24 Patent and Trademark attorney is that it is either a 25 word, phrase, symbol, design, or a combination of CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 118 1 words, phrases, symbols or designs, which identifies 2 and distinguishes the source of the goods or services 3 of one party from those of others. 4 So, in a sense, tribes who want to officially 5 register their trademark as official insignias should 6 include other symbols, variations of names, so, 7 variations of names that identifies their tribes 8 exclusively. 9 As a jeweler, my intent this year is to apply 10 for my own trademark that would authenticate my 11 product, my handmade jewelry. 12 But my concern is, if I am to apply for a 13 trademark and I make a decision in the name of a Zuni 14 word as "Zuni" and apply for a trademark, that I will 15 be denied a trademark because there's already other 16 companies that have used the Zuni symbol or Zuni name 17 and that I will be denied a trademark. 18 And it's not right that other companies from 19 Texas or California that are not members of the tribe 20 be given a trademark and a tribal member be denied a 21 trademark. 22 I have, as I stated earlier, that I wish to 23 submit my written testimony, but I will just show you 24 some examples of what is out there that has been 25 registered and there's also a list here from another CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 119 1 set of information and I think Governor Bowekaty 2 submitted this as well, but what - from based on my own 3 research and other information submitted to me, there's 4 a total of 14 that is registered under or with the 5 combination of Zuni names so it will be disturbing if I 6 were to submit my own trademark and be denied a 7 trademark. 8 And another effort is that I represent the 9 Zuni Cultural Arts Council and we're taking the same 10 initiative to apply for an arts council trademark and 11 one of our efforts is to have support from our 12 governing body that endorses our trademark. 13 And, so, I do feel that registering official 14 trademarks has a direct linkage to other symbols or 15 variations of names of the tribe and or they are 16 exclusive to individual tribes and so, my, I just hope 17 that my, our collective testimony with Governor 18 Bowekaty will do that, you know, our awareness and our 19 information at least will have or provide direction in 20 what is best, what is the best way to go do the process 21 of trademark laws and regulations. 22 And I think one of the, one of the things that 23 needs to be closely looked at is the Indian Arts and 24 Crafts Act, you know. There's a provision in the Act 25 that endorses, empowers the Indian Arts and Crafts CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 120 1 Board that has the empowerment to register trademarks 2 for tribes. 3 And so I think that should really be looked at 4 as far as how those, you know, those regulations will 5 apply or whatever new regulations that are being 6 proposed are to be implemented, that these associated 7 regulations or whatever-laws that pertains to tribes 8 that -- are looked at closely. 9 And, also, I wanted to also make you aware 10 that in the early 1990s, under our Former Governor 11 Robert Lewis, the late Governor Robert Lewis, he had 12 made an effort to inquire through the Patent and 13 Trademark Office for assistance in product 14 authenticity. 15 And a response came from the Patent and 16 Trademark Office from Kathryn D. Erskine, Managing 17 Attorney, that was requesting from the tribe, 18 requesting them from the tribe "All variations of your 19 tribal name, including variations in your own language" 20 and "All flags, seals, or other symbols which 21 exclusively identify your Nation and sacred symbols" 22 and it states, "if you are willing to make them public, 23 and your reasons for why these symbols should not be 24 registered to non-Indians." 25 So, I think that with, with this, this concept CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 121 1 or idea back then, that it should still be one of the 2 efforts of the Patent and Trademark Office to contact 3 the tribes as far as the official insignias and 4 registering other symbols, variations of names. 5 MR. DICKINSON: Do you need to summarize 6 somewhat, Mr. Panteah? 7 MR. LOREN PANTEAH: Okay. In concluding, 8 like I said, my personal effort is because of my 9 livelihood. I am a Zuni jeweler and a member of the 10 Zuni Arts Council and on behalf of fellow artisans, 11 Zuni artisans, that registering official -- not only 12 official insignias but variations of names, symbols, 13 should be included as part of this new effort to 14 register for trademarks; and that the Indian Arts and 15 Crafts Act should be closely looked into as far as the 16 Indian Arts and Crafts Board in the section where it 17 pertains to the Board being empowered to register 18 trademarks for tribes, individuals or members of tribal 19 organizations. 20 Thank you. 21 MR. DICKINSON: Thank you. Any questions 22 from Mr. Panteah? Thank you very much. We appreciate 23 it. 24 Mr. Peter Pino, Isidro Pino and Sabrina are 25 going to testify as a group? CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 122 1 MR. PETER PINO: What time is it? It's 2 11:48. Aren't we going to take a lunch break at 12:00? 3 MR. DICKINSON: I have 11:35. We could 4 break now. 5 My concern is that I have to go on to other 6 government business and won't be available after for 7 about the next 15 minutes. 8 So, because your testimony had been referenced 9 earlier, I wanted to make myself available to you and 10 I'd hoped they'd informed you directly. 11 I will say, though, the rest of the panel will 12 be here this afternoon and we will continue to go 13 through all the witnesses plus anyone else who wishes 14 to testify and that will be in the record and it will 15 be thoroughly considered. 16 MR. PETER PINO: Well, thank you, 17 Chairman. Again, my name is Peter Pino. I'm the 18 Tribal Administrator for the Pueblo of Zia and when we 19 were delegated this task of protecting the intellectual 20 property and the cultural property of the community 21 some years ago, I hung my head and I felt that it was 22 almost an impossible task and I'm glad that this issue 23 has come to this point. 24 But before I address you as a committee, I owe 25 it to those elders that had the foresight to give the CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 123 1 instructions to the Governor and his staff to pursue 2 this property; and in respect to their spirits, please 3 bear with me. I need to address those that have gone 4 before us into the next world so that they can be part 5 of the process here today. 6 * * * 7 [11:50 to 11:52, ZIA PRAYER] 8 * * * 9 MR. PETER PINO: I'm going to deviate 10 somewhat from my written testimony in hopes that I can 11 respond to some of the questions that you had earlier 12 and some of the comments that had been made earlier by 13 other individuals. 14 The Pueblo of Zia is located 36 miles 15 northwest of Albuquerque. 16 I have served in other offices at the Pueblo - 17 positions that are appointed on an annual basis by the 18 religious leader of the community, the "traik'atsi," in 19 the Spanish term "cacique." 20 I have served as a Lieutenant War Chief for 21 two terms, and War Chief for one term. 22 I come to give testimony concerning the 23 amendment of the Trademark Act and to prohibit 24 registration of the pueblo or official insignia of 25 Native American tribes. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 124 1 The Zia sun symbol is used by the religious 2 societies, and to testify today is Isidro Pino who's a 3 member of one of the societies. But this symbol 4 represents the collective identity of our people. 5 The symbol has been used by the religious 6 societies since time immemorial. It represents Father 7 Sun and Father Moon, the givers of light, day and 8 night. 9 The Zia people settled in this area around 10 1100 to 1200 A.D. 11 In the Fifties, the Pueblo allowed an 12 archeologist named Florence Ellis Hawley, because they 13 felt that this was the only way that they could 14 preserve some of the informations that were fair, and 15 Florence Ellis Hawley worked under the guidance of one 16 of the religious society members of the time - Ambrosia 17 Pino - to excavate an ash pile within the Pueblo. 18 They identified all the different artifacts as 19 they went down this trench. The items at the bottom of 20 the ash pile dated around 1200 A.D. That's the 21 established date of the Pueblo of Zia. They were in 22 that area long before that. 23 The origin of the Zia people, however, was in 24 the underground, three levels down from our current 25 level. And when I say "time immemorial", I'm going CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 125 1 back to the first level - the Yellow World, and that's 2 where the Zia people began. 3 The religious societies were the givers of 4 life and the doctors of our community. They're 5 responsible for the health and welfare of the 6 community. They had the responsibility long before 7 modern medicine developed. 8 The religious societies called on those 9 spiritual powers of the sun, the moon, the earth - 10 symbolized by the Zia sun symbol - to assure the health 11 and welfare of the community. They continue to provide 12 that function for the tribe. 13 When the Spaniards came into this region, the 14 population of Zia numbered 15,000 people. The people 15 of Zia were a nation and the symbol was with the people 16 long before that. 17 During war time, when the Zia people were 18 battling the Spaniards and other people who came into 19 the area, there was a headdress that was made by the 20 Zia people and the other tribes recognized that head- 21 dress. Within that design of the headdress was painted 22 the Zia sun symbol. 23 I am recalling a story that I heard from the 24 now-deceased elder of our community - Jose Antonio 25 Lucero - who started the fire fighting crew for Zia CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 126 1 Pueblo in the 1950s after he came back from World War 2 II. 3 He went to the leaders of the two sister 4 societies within the Pueblo - the Eagle Society, the 5 Flint Society. He asked permission to use the symbol. 6 The head of the Flint Society, Ambrosia Pino, 7 and the head of the Eagle Society, Jose Vigil Medina, 8 sat in counsel and, after much dialogue, gave Jose 9 Antonio Lucero permission to use the symbol on the fire 10 fighting helmets. 11 We will be representing the pictures of those 12 helmets as part of our testimony. So those helmets 13 were worn by the Zia people that fought forest fires 14 throughout the United States for 20-plus years. 15 It is with the permission of the elders that 16 we use the sun symbol on the tribal letterhead, our 17 tribal buildings, our cards. We have used both, the 18 three-pronged and the four-pronged symbols as official 19 insignia, according to the elders' direction. 20 Among the documents we will add to our 21 testimony is a copy of the Tribal Resolution regarding 22 the Zia sun symbol, both three- and four-pronged, as 23 our official insignia. 24 At this time, I would like to read that 25 Resolution [APRIL 15, 1999] for the record: CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 127 1 "Resolution Number 99-09. 2 "WHEREAS, the Zia sun symbol was 3 adopted by the people of the Pueblo of 4 Zia centuries ago, and the three-pronged 5 and four-pronged sun symbols have been 6 and continue to be of great religious and 7 traditional significance to the Pueblo; 8 and, 9 "WHEREAS, the Pueblo of Zia also uses the 10 Zia sun symbol as the official insignia 11 of its tribal government and has done so 12 for decades; and, 13 "WHEREAS, such religious, traditional and 14 official use of the Zia sun symbol has 15 never been formally recognized by the 16 Tribal Council, but it is desirable to do 17 so now in order to facilitate the 18 registration of the Zia sun symbol with 19 the United States Patent and Trademark 20 Office. 21 "NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED by the 22 Tribal Council of the Pueblo of Zia that 23 the Tribal Council hereby formally and 24 officially acknowledges and recognizes 25 that the Zia sun symbol has been and is CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 128 1 the official tribal insignia of the 2 government of the Pueblo of Zia, as well 3 as an exceptionally significant religious 4 and cultural symbol to the Pueblo. 5 "BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Governor 6 take such actions as may be required to 7 seek formal recognition and protection 8 of the symbol, both in its religious and 9 traditional use, as well as the official 10 insignia of the government of the Pueblo 11 of Zia." 12 It's certified by the Pueblo Governor, Amadeo 13 Shije, and the Pueblo Secretary attests the said 14 Resolution and we gave you a copy earlier and we'll 15 submit that in the form of a formal file that you can 16 use as part of your record. 17 I will now talk about New Mexico's use of the 18 Zia sun symbol on the New Mexico flag. It's already 19 been said that in 1925, the Daughters of the American 20 Revolution had a contest for the design of the New 21 Mexico state flag. 22 An individual in Santa Fe, Dr. Harry Mera, saw 23 the ceremonial vase at the Museum of Fine Arts in Santa 24 Fe. We know it was a ceremonial vase, because only 25 religious ceremonial vases could use the Zia sun CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 129 1 symbol. We know that the only way the vase would have 2 left the Pueblo was if it was stolen. 3 Dr. Mera used essentially that symbol on his 4 entry for the flag design. The non-Indian people voted 5 for his design and won the contest. 6 There was a gentleman earlier indicating, by 7 using this as a visual aid, that the two symbols are 8 not similar, that the two symbols are not one and the 9 same. 10 I will use us, as examples, whether we're of 11 the same people or not: The committee, I see that 12 you're from the mainstream society, you do not look all 13 the same. Some are, your hair is receding; some are 14 light-haired; some, the hair is turning white, but I 15 recognize you as Caucasian and there may be some mixed 16 blood in there somewhere. 17 (Laughter) 18 MR. DICKINSON: Specifically American. 19 MR. PETER PINO: And essentially you are 20 Americans and you are Americans, I sit before you with 21 short hair, the Governor sits before you with long 22 hair, our elder sits here with his hair tied in a bun, 23 and the youngest member of this group that's testifying 24 before you has long hair. 25 My point is that we are not all the same but CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 130 1 we are recognizable as a group of people and, this, 2 [Zia] I submit, is essentially recognizing that that's 3 the sun symbol. I see no difference. 4 I am told that I have five more minutes, and I 5 don't know whether Isidro and Sabrina are going to be 6 given time, after my presentation. But I felt that I 7 could pretty much take the entire 25 minutes between 8 the three of us and essentially articulate what needs 9 to be articulated. 10 So if you would bear with me and if you -- 11 MR. DICKINSON: May I suggest? 12 MR. PETER PINO: Yes. 13 MR. DICKINSON: We can return after 14 lunch. My only concern is, I do have to leave. I 15 don't have much time. 16 MR. PETER PINO: Okay. 17 MR. DICKINSON: And I would like to ask 18 you a few questions but we can certainly -- You'd get 19 the entire 45 minutes and we will just make sure that 20 we -- 21 MR. PETER PINO: Okay. 22 MR. DICKINSON: -- are available to you 23 after lunch. 24 MR. PETER PINO: Maybe what we can do is, 25 after my presentation, we can stand for questions and CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 131 1 then Isidro and Sabrina can speak after lunch here. 2 And, certainly, Isidro and the Governor and 3 myself can respond to any questions that the committee 4 may have at that time. 5 COURT REPORTER: Excuse me. Could I stop 6 you all right now? I need to have a break because I 7 need to change paper. 8 (12:04, brief break while Court Reporter 9 reloads Stenograph paper) 10 MR. DICKINSON: Sorry. Thank you. You 11 ready, Ms. Macias? 12 COURT REPORTER: Yes, sir. 13 MR. DICKINSON: You may proceed. 14 MR. PETER PINO: Mr. Chairman and members 15 of the committee, we submitted the documentation and we 16 presented that to you. 17 And in the essence of time and you hearing and 18 maybe you having specific questions, I will for now 19 conclude my remarks and we'll continue it after lunch, 20 so we're ready for questions now. 21 MR. DICKINSON: I appreciate that, Mr. 22 Pino. Let me ask you, I'd asked you previously: Have 23 you had, or, will you seek to register one of the 24 insignia as a trademark in our office, is that right?, 25 that's currently under question? CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 132 1 MR. PETER PINO: We feel that that's the 2 only alternative we have at this point in time because, 3 as stated earlier, we do not have the resources, funds 4 and humans to essentially oppose every request that is 5 made to register that symbol. 6 MR. DICKINSON: Just as an aside, you 7 might be interested, you know, you may register on-line 8 now, costs you 245 bucks; it'll take credit cards 9 and -- 10 (Laughter) 11 MR. DICKINSON: -- when you get in there, 12 in that new system, you might want to tell your lawyer 13 about it, look for a good system, or take advantage of 14 it. 15 (Laughter) 16 MR. DICKINSON: There are several 17 variations in the design, right? I wanted to maybe ask 18 about some of the nature of those variations and what 19 you would believe the breadth of the protection, with 20 regard to the official insignia, that you think would 21 be justifiable? 22 MR. PETER PINO: The three-pronged that 23 you see in the ceremonial vase is a religious symbol. 24 And when I stated earlier that there was 25 elders from the community that are now in the next CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 133 1 world, that they came to us, requesting that we take 2 this issue on and protect the property of the pueblo, 3 they indicated that that is the religious symbol of the 4 religious societies. 5 The symbol with the four-pronged is also 6 recognized as a Zia sun symbol but they also, the 7 elders, recognize that that's the symbol that the state 8 uses and that's readily more widely used within the 9 mainstream. 10 And they indicated to us that the one that we 11 should use in our stationery is the four-pronged and 12 that with the submittal of our stationery, you'll 13 recognize that there's some three-pronged and some 14 four-pronged. 15 Adhering to the wishes of the elders, we have 16 changed our letterhead from the three-pronged to the 17 four-pronged and essentially we instructed the tribal 18 office to utilize the four-pronged more on the business 19 side, but essentially we would want to register both, 20 both symbols. 21 MR. DICKINSON: I do need to go, I'm 22 afraid, but I'll let my colleagues continue to 23 question. I appreciate your testimony today very much 24 and the testimony of all of your colleagues. 25 Speaking on behalf of the office, I want to CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 134 1 thank everyone who is here today from all the tribes, 2 from Senator Bingaman and Congressman Udall. 3 It has been extremely enlightening for us. I 4 know it has been personally very enlightening for me 5 and I think being able to do it here face to face in 6 New Mexico has been one of the great advantages of this 7 hearing. 8 So I want to thank everyone for their 9 hospitality and their good testimony. We definitely 10 will take all of this testimony under very thorough 11 consideration. 12 Thank you very much. 13 MR. PETER PINO: Thank you. 14 (Applause. 12:08) 15 MS. MELTZER: Before we break for lunch, 16 I just have one quick question. 17 In previous testimony, Mr. Panteah, who I 18 believe is a representative of the Zuni Pueblo, had 19 indicated that he might apply for an application as an 20 individual and that, of course, the pueblo, as a whole, 21 might also apply for an application. 22 As a broad issue, what do you think about 23 individual tribal members applying for trademarks that 24 might incorporate official insignia of the tribe? 25 MR. PETER PINO: Speaking just for the CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 135 1 Pueblo of Zia, I don't think we have any potential of 2 any tribal individual requesting a trademark request 3 for the sun symbol. 4 I think once the symbol becomes recognized as 5 the symbol of the Pueblo of Zia, they would essentially 6 make the request from the elders and from the tribe 7 whether they could use that symbol to identify their 8 crafts and their items that they produce. 9 MS. MELTZER: This might be a difficult 10 question then to answer. Do you think that would be 11 the same in other tribes, that is, the tribal members 12 would seek the approval of the elders? 13 In other words, at the Patent and Trademark 14 Office, how would we distinguish between a legitimate 15 applicant and one who hadn't gotten approval? 16 MR. PETER PINO: I think if one seeks to 17 trademark a symbol of the tribe, the way I would see 18 that process happening, - And you would make that as 19 part of your official request of the applicant - is 20 that they present a Tribal Resolution, adopted by the 21 Tribal Council, stating the facts. 22 MS. MELTZER: Thank you very much. 23 In that case, why don't we break for lunch and 24 since we got a little bit of a late start, could we 25 come back about 1:10 and start then? CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 136 1 And we're all very grateful for your patience 2 and for your flexibility and we'll continue with your 3 testimony and continue for approximately about 30 to 35 4 minutes when you return. 5 Thank you. 6 [NOON RECESS, 12:10 to 1:41 P.M.] 7 MS. MELTZER: We'd like to thank you for 8 returning from lunch. It's a beautiful afternoon and 9 we're grateful that you came back for the afternoon 10 session. 11 When we left this morning, Peter Pino, one of 12 the tribal elders from the Pueblo of Zia was giving 13 testimony together, I believe, with Mr. Isidro Pino, 14 religious representative, and Sabrino Pino, together 15 with Governor Shije. 16 So we'd like to continue that and, Mr. Pino, 17 you have until approximately 2:00 o'clock to conclude 18 the remarks from the group, so, thank you. 19 MR. PETER PINO: Thank you, Madam Chair. 20 I think what I'll do, instead of taking time 21 from the elders, Isidro Pino, and Sabrina, I'm going to 22 allow them to make their presentations. 23 And after their presentations, I'll make a few 24 more additional comments and then we'll be ready for 25 questions. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 137 1 MR. ISIDRO PINO: Hello. Welcome to 2 Albuquerque, New Mexico. 3 First of all, I want to introduce myself and I 4 want to tell you who I -- what I am, who I am. I want 5 to be more, or more or less specific with it since I 6 live two worlds - the White Man's world and the Indian 7 world. So what I want to do is go ahead and tell you 8 who I am, and who I am and what I did in the White 9 Man's world. Okay. 10 My name is Isidro Pino and I am from Zia 11 Pueblo. First of all, I turned 66 years old today. 12 AUDIENCE: Happy Birthday! 13 (Laughter. Applause) 14 MR. ISIDRO PINO: I served in the United 15 States 8th Army Corps of Engineers during the Korean 16 conflict. I am a Korean War Veteran. I served under 17 Commanding General Ridgeway. 18 I graduated from Industrial Arts in California 19 and the one in Beaumont, California. I spent 42 years 20 busting my butt out here in the rat race, White Man's 21 world, and I'm happy with it. 22 I retired last year, and that's about it. 23 And for the other part, for the testimony, my 24 testimony is very brief and to the point and I will now 25 read it to you. Well, before I go to that, I missed CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 138 1 out one thing. 2 During my prime years, I was an inventor and I 3 was granted one patent: a product idea. 4 Okay. Going to the testimony. 5 Ladies and gentlemen, members of the United 6 States Patent and Trademark Office. I am Isidro Pino, 7 a member of the Pueblo of Zia and the leader of the 8 Eagle Religious Society of the Pueblo. I also serve as 9 the leader of the general pueblo public. I find it 10 difficult to speak to the issue that's so dear to me 11 and my people - the Zia sun symbol. 12 The knowledge that I have as a member of the 13 religious society is not mine. It belongs to the 14 society and the pueblo. It is a community property. I 15 cannot disclose all the information that makes me a 16 Zia. However, to help you understand the importance of 17 the Zia sun symbol, our community property, I take 18 personal risk in disclosing the following: 19 1. When a baby is born into Zia, one of the 20 first ceremony performed is the introduction of the 21 newborn to the sun. 22 2. When hunting, the sun symbol is drawn on 23 the ground where the campfire is to be. This is the 24 official invite for the sun to warm and protect you 25 through its powers of fire. At the end of your stay, CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 139 1 you officially and formally release the spirit of the 2 sun. 3 3. When a ceremonial vase has to be replaced 4 in any of the 10 major religious societies, the head of 5 the society has to approve the painting of the sun 6 symbol on the vase before it is painted. 7 4. At death of a fellow tribal member, the 8 symbol is painted by religious society members for the 9 family members that remain on this world so that they 10 can be guided by the sun. 11 The above samplings have been disclosed in 12 hopes that you will duly consider the full protection 13 of the Zia sun symbol as the official tribal symbol of 14 the Pueblo of Zia. 15 We recognize your present system of protecting 16 federal, state and local government symbols. Utilizing 17 the same system, which includes tribal symbols, would 18 be the most cost-effective way of incorporating equal 19 protection of all governments. 20 Thank you and may the spirits that guide this 21 world guide you to a favorable decision. 22 Thank you. 23 MS. MELTZER: Thank you very much. We 24 don't have any questions. 25 So if perhaps Sabrina could testify. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 140 1 MS. SABRINA PINO, 8 YEARS YOUNG: Members 2 of the committee, I'm honored to be before you. My 3 name is Sabrina Pino. I go to school at Jemez Valley 4 Elementary School. I'm eight years old and I'll be 5 going into the 4th Grade in the fall. 6 Through my parents, grandparents and tribal 7 religious leaders, I have learned the importance of our 8 history and our current existence. 9 I realize that I too will some day be a mother 10 and a grandmother providing guidance to my children and 11 grandchildren. 12 I am here today to say a few words on behalf 13 of the 146 tribal members of Zia Pueblo that are 12 14 years of age and younger. 15 We represent the future of the Pueblo. We are 16 glad that our present leaders are involved in 17 protecting the Zia sun symbol which is an official 18 symbol of the Pueblo. 19 We hope and pray that you will also protect it 20 by not allowing it to be trademarked by anyone from the 21 private sector. The symbol represents our past, 22 present and future. 23 Please don't take away our future. Please!! 24 MS. MELTZER: Thank you very much. 25 MS. SABRINA PINO: You're welcome. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 141 1 (Laughter. Applause) 2 MR. PETER PINO: At this time, I'll go 3 ahead and finish off my testimony and essentially, 4 after that, we'll stand for questions. 5 I had briefly described our relationship with 6 the state and how they came to the symbol. 7 In working with the state and in working with 8 this issue, there has been some questions posed by some 9 people and the questions that they ask is: Why didn't 10 they object then? - meaning 1925. 11 They do not understand how it was for Native 12 Americans at that time. We were not considered 13 citizens of the United States at the time. This is 14 1925. 15 The population figures of our tribe at the 16 time were about 120. Formal western education was not 17 introduced until the late 1920s. 18 The sun symbol by the state was appropriated 19 in 1925, and that was just elementary school. Many 20 people had to work just to survive and didn't even 21 finish those elementary grades. 22 We didn't have anyone with the knowledge or 23 expertise back then to oppose the use of the symbol. 24 It just didn't happen then. 25 The Pueblo of Zia simply didn't have the CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 142 1 wherewithal to fight the misuse and appropriation of 2 its cultural symbol and insignia. 3 In the 1970s when I was first hired, the 4 entire budget of the pueblo was $15,000. That was all 5 the money that the pueblo had. 6 In the past, the pueblo wasn't even aware it 7 could protect the people's rights. History had overrun 8 us. American law was something that oppressed us and 9 took things away from us and we didn't know how we 10 could fight and possibly win. 11 Even today, we have many -- we have for many 12 years spent valuable and scare resources opposing 13 parties who want to have exclusive rights to our sun 14 symbol. We simply do not have the resources to fund 15 options to every individual who applies to federally 16 register the Zia sun symbol as his trademark. 17 We are in ongoing negotiations with the 18 members in the executive branch of state government for 19 their unauthorized taking of our symbol earlier this 20 century. 21 We do not want to stop the State of New Mexico 22 from using the symbol. We want recognition of the 23 taking, a formal apology, and some kind of gesture of 24 remuneration to us - not that money can ever make up 25 for this taking but because it is a wrong that needs to CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 143 1 be righted. 2 Many wrongs cannot ever be righted in western 3 law but are atoned for, partially, by monetary payment. 4 It is manipulative for others to criticize us for being 5 materialistic to want some kind of symbolic payment for 6 the unauthorized use of our symbol. 7 If any symbol or object of religious 8 significance is used with disrespect, there is an 9 imbalance. We feel that the world today is out of 10 balance. 11 I know that the Trademark Office may not be 12 concerned with or believe in the possible imbalance 13 caused by disrespect of our culture and our religious 14 symbol. 15 But I do not understand why it and Congress 16 would not understand the imbalance and inequity under 17 the law of protecting from registration the official 18 insignia of cities, states, and foreign nations, and 19 not protecting the official insignia and symbols of the 20 First American Nations. 21 It is sensible and right to correct these 22 inequities. 23 Before I conclude, I would like to address a 24 concern and a question that was asked earlier today. 25 That question is: What happens if there's conflicts CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 144 1 between tribes? 2 There have been such conflicts in the past 3 with tribes on certain properties. And that hurt and 4 that wound is always there, unless the two tribes come 5 together and resolve that issue. 6 The Pueblo of Zia, in the past, has been 7 involved with the issue with another pueblo and the 8 only way that that issue was finally put to rest is 9 that the pueblo leadership of Zia at the time requested 10 all the members to bring jewelry, to bring buckskins, 11 to bring necklaces, silver belts, anything that they 12 can come with, and make an offering to this other 13 pueblo for payment of a wrong that had been done. 14 Only then did the issue and the conflict get 15 resolved. 16 We all, as pueblo people, now realize that 17 that was the only way to handle that, that issue. 18 So if those issues come up, I think the tribes 19 can handle those issues and be able to come up with a 20 decision that would be favorable for all parties. 21 The other question that came up I addressed 22 earlier, with showing the vessel and the four-pronged 23 sun symbol; as I was sitting in the room this morning, 24 I was shown a symbol of the Pueblo of Acoma. In that 25 symbol appears the sun symbol on their circle of CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 145 1 symbols. 2 The Pueblo of Zia has no intentions of taking 3 those symbols from sister pueblos and we will be able 4 to address those issues in council with the respective 5 councils, to be able to address those issues. So Zia 6 has not taken the position of taking the symbol away 7 from the state and the pueblos. 8 The state will deal with it on a 9 government-to-government basis and we'll do the same 10 with other of the tribes that are in the state and 11 other locales that may be using the symbol. 12 In conclusion, in concluding my remarks, I 13 want to thank you as members of the U.S. Patent and 14 Trademark Office for designating Albuquerque as a 15 hearing site. I also want to thank the many people 16 that made this issue advance to this point. 17 And, last, I want to thank the spirits and the 18 people who will make the protection of tribal insignia 19 a reality. 20 MR. STEPHEN WALSH: Mr. Pino, thank you 21 very much for your testimony. It appears to us the 22 symbol means a great deal more than just identifying 23 it. 24 My question is related in some way to the 25 nature of the symbol and the importance that it has. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 146 1 Among the public comments that we've received 2 so far, we have suggestions that the Patent and 3 Trademark Office should maintain a register of the 4 official insignia. 5 There are other comments which suggest some 6 other group or agency might be more appropriate to 7 maintain a registry. 8 Do you have suggestions for us on what would 9 be the most appropriate way in which to compile and 10 maintain a list? 11 MR. PETER PINO: The federal government 12 has the Trust responsibility to oversee the resources 13 of tribes. We are nations within a nation. So we look 14 to the federal government for protection and to look at 15 the needs and desires of us as Native Americans. 16 We have more trust in the different entities 17 that are available: the state, the local 18 municipalities. 19 We have more trust with the federal government 20 because there is a government-to-government 21 relationship that our forefathers assured would be in 22 existence. 23 So we feel that the list of such symbols 24 should be kept by the federal government and the most 25 appropriate office would be the U.S. Patent and CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 147 1 Trademark Office for the purpose of having a central 2 one-location-type of situation. 3 And as I stated earlier, if tribes want to 4 trademark their symbols or tribal members want to do 5 that, then they have to do it by Tribal Resolution. We 6 feel that that would be honoring the governmental 7 system that each tribe has. 8 MR. WALSH: Thank you. 9 MS. MELTZER: Thank you very much. 10 I just have one question. In both your 11 testimony and the testimony of some other 12 representatives, it seems that the emphasis is on 13 protection of official insignia in the same way that 14 the insignia of other states, municipalities, and 15 countries are protected. 16 As you understand our current trademark 17 system, would that be adequate, then, to meet your 18 needs if we protected, let's say, the Zia sun symbol in 19 exactly the same way that we protect, let's say, the 20 flag of Great Britain? Would that be adequate 21 protection? 22 MR. PETER PINO: I think if there was 23 anything more offered to the tribes, there would be a 24 cry of injustice from the public sector. And we feel 25 that if the playing field was leveled, that would be CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 148 1 sufficient. 2 If there was equal protection, I think that's 3 all we can ask from the federal government. 4 We're not asking for the law to go beyond 5 what's offered to other entities. 6 MS. MELTZER: Thank you very much. You 7 have a couple of minutes remaining if you'd like to use 8 that. 9 And, if not, we'll thank you for your 10 testimony and for your presence. 11 MR. PETER PINO: One of the other 12 comments that I want to make is to essentially address 13 the issue of the symbols of other tribes. 14 There was some concern by some people in the 15 public sector that there may be hundreds and thousands 16 of new registrations coming from tribes. 17 If today's session here is any indication, I 18 count maybe four to five different groups that are 19 saying some kind of protection for their symbols. I 20 don't think there's going to be a mad rush of new 21 symbols being requested to be trademarked. 22 I think the people that were saying that 23 there'd be thousands of new symbols and that you will 24 be rushed for time and human resources to try to figure 25 out how you would manage such a flood of new requests, CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 149 1 I don't think there's going to be that kind of flood. 2 I think it's something that needs to be done 3 and I think the requests are going to be coming in, 4 paced, paced out, so that you don't have a floodgate of 5 requests. 6 I think you will have a request here, here or 7 there. The normal request that comes in from the 8 private sector I think would be the same kind of pace 9 you'll see and, then, the tribes making requests for 10 trademarking their symbols. 11 GOVERNOR AMADEO SHIJE: Members of the 12 committee, I also want to -- I have a statement that I 13 want to make also today. 14 As you can see, there's not too many tribes 15 that are represented today. But the fact is that they 16 all have the very same concern that we have, and the 17 reason why I state that is because I'm a member of the 18 All Indian Pueblo Council, a council that was 19 established back in 1598 and, in a lot of cases, long 20 before a lot of entities in this country have been 21 established. 22 So what I'm saying is, I cannot speak on 23 behalf of those tribes but I'm assuming that those 24 tribes that have tribal insignias would probably be in 25 concurrence with what we are doing here today and I'm CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 150 1 assuming that in the very near future, that this 2 subject will come up with the All Indian Pueblo 3 Council. 4 So, with this, I will take back this 5 information to that council and advise them of the 6 outcome of this gathering here today. 7 And once again, I thank you all for coming and 8 we would wait for your favorable response and I would 9 like to think that you would treat us just as you treat 10 other entities and other foreign countries, as well. 11 And I thank you once again. 12 MS. MELTZER: Thank you all very much and 13 we appreciate your comments and your presence. 14 In that case, if there are no further remarks 15 from this panel, we'd like to invite our next group of 16 speakers to give their testimony. 17 If I could ask, is it Mr. Stanley Pino? 18 AUDIENCE: [Hand up] 19 MS. MELTZER: Thank you. Could you come 20 to the table and then we'd also ask William Weahkee and 21 Glenabah Martinez to come up to testify, in that order. 22 I understand that Mrs. Martinez very kindly 23 gave her time to a group of representatives from the 24 Native American Youth Group this morning. 25 So if Professor Kenneth Bobroff is in the CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 151 1 audience, could you come up to the table, please. 2 Thank you. 3 MR. STANLEY PINO: Good afternoon, 4 Governors, other tribal representatives, members of the 5 panel and members of the audience. 6 My name is Stanley Pino and I am the Chairman 7 of the All Indian Pueblo Council, an organization 8 comprising all 19 of New Mexico's pueblos, which has 9 existed since time immemorial and is dedicated to the 10 preservation of tribal sovereignty and the cultural 11 integrity of its constituent tribes. 12 In the interest of full disclosure, I am also 13 proud to state that I am a member and former Governor 14 and present Council Member of the Pueblo of Zia. 15 However, I am here today to speak on behalf of all 19 16 of New Mexico's pueblo nations. 17 New Mexico's pueblos are unique tribes. They 18 have resided in what is now New Mexico since time 19 immemorial and, unlike many tribes, have a long history 20 as people and as tribal governments. Each has its own 21 unique tribal insignia. 22 Some, like the Pueblos of Isleta and Sandia, 23 are more modern in their origin and design. 24 Others, like the Pueblo of Zia sun symbol, are 25 ancient and revered. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 152 1 All, however, have great symbolic importance 2 to their respective pueblo nations. It is precisely 3 because of their uniqueness and attractiveness that 4 many in the non-Indian world seek to emulate them and 5 use them for commercial gain. 6 Like other things of value which Indian 7 Nations possess, they have been all too freely 8 appropriated without recognition or compensation. This 9 must stop and can be stopped with minimal effort on the 10 part of the federal government. 11 By giving Indian Tribes the same protections 12 that have long been given to state, local, and foreign 13 governments, the federal government can belatedly begin 14 to fulfill this long-neglected areas of its Trust 15 responsibility. 16 Once protected, Indian Nations can decide for 17 themselves whether and under what circumstances they 18 wish to permit the use of their tribal insignia by 19 others. 20 Doing so can help protect and promote tribal 21 sovereignty and tribal culture, while furthering 22 perhaps the most important objective of the American 23 system of government - protection of property rights. 24 This legislation would show long overdue 25 respect for Indian Nations and their cultural symbols. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 153 1 Retroactive application of the law would begin 2 to redress longstanding wrongs to Native Americans and 3 their culture. 4 No business interest should justify the 5 retention by non-Native Americans of federal 6 registrations of official Native American symbols. 7 Existing law dictates that non-Native American 8 institutions must divest themselves of Native American 9 property which those institutions have purchased for 10 large sums of money. 11 Similarly, a trademark owner should not be 12 shielded merely because it registered a trademark 13 before the Act was changed. 14 To allow the present owners of marks, which 15 are Native American official insignia, to continue to 16 use them undisturbed, would make a mockery of the 17 serious attempt by Congress and the United States 18 Government to right a wrong and would send the clear 19 message that property rights of a non-Indian business 20 are to be valued more than the essential cultural 21 values and sovereign identity of an entire tribe. 22 Such non-Native American uses should be 23 stopped or, at a minimum, such trademark owners should 24 be required to reach an agreement with the Indian 25 Nations for such use. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 154 1 The change in the law will not impose great 2 burdens on the Patent and Trademark Office; rather, 3 failure to change the law will merely increase the 4 burden and historical abuse heaped on Native Nations 5 who have had to stand helplessly by as their cultural 6 and religious symbols have been callously appropriated 7 by non-Native Americans for use in commercial and often 8 offensive ways. 9 Action taken now would serve to minimize any 10 additional burden to Native Americans and Indian 11 Nations and would foster greater cultural awareness in 12 this land of such great diversity. 13 In closing, we acknowledge and applaud the 14 efforts of Senator Bingaman to bring this issue to the 15 forefront and thank Congressman Udall for his efforts 16 on this subject. 17 Respectfully submitted, Stanley Pino, 18 Chairman, All Indian Pueblo Council. 19 Thank you very much. 20 MR. WALSH: Thank you, Mr. Pino. 21 My question concerns something that I realized 22 when I saw the paper copy of your testimony. 23 MR. STANLEY PINO: Yes, sir. 24 MR. WALSH: And there's an insignia at 25 the top of this page which is the All Indian Pueblo CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 155 1 Council insignia. 2 MR. STANLEY PINO: Yes, sir. 3 MR. WALSH: And just to be sure that we 4 consider all the possible applications of changes to 5 the Trademark Act, should we consider, in addition to 6 federally- and/or state-recognized Native American 7 tribes, should we also consider insignia of groups or 8 associations such as the All Indian Pueblo Council? 9 Would you -- Just to make sure we try to cover 10 all the bases. 11 MR. STANLEY PINO: Yeah. I certainly 12 believe that even organizations that represent 13 government entities in the Native American sector, I 14 feel that they need to be protected. 15 I realize that in reference to our logo, this 16 logo was I guess developed back in 1965 when the All 17 Indian Pueblo Council was incorporated as a 501(c)(3) 18 corporation for funding purposes, so that logo was 19 developed and has been a part of the symbol for all 19 20 pueblos. 21 I believe in 1995 or 1996, the Chairman at the 22 time of the All Indian Pueblo Council came to Zia and 23 in that discussion, he asked permission, somewhat 24 belatedly, but he did ask permission for the council to 25 use the insignia or at least the sun symbol on our CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 156 1 symbol for All Indian Pueblo Council. 2 They're one of the bodies that have come 3 forward and asked permission to continue to use that 4 symbol. 5 Another group that's present here today, the 6 Council of Energy Resource Tribes, who David Lester is 7 present in the audience, - He will testify later - his 8 group also requested permission to use the symbol as 9 part of, also, their organization or logo. 10 So, yes, I do believe that organizations that 11 represent tribal governments should be also protected. 12 MR. WALSH: Thank you. 13 MS. MELTZER: I don't think we have any 14 further questions for you, Mr. Pino, but we do want to 15 thank you for your testimony today. 16 MR. STANLEY PINO: Thank you very much 17 for allowing us the time to testify on behalf of the 19 18 pueblos. 19 Being a member of Zia, I also have a special 20 place in my heart; that we do see this hearing be in 21 favor of not only Zia Pueblo but also the Indian 22 Nations throughout the United States. 23 As Governor Shije iterated earlier, we do 24 represent 19 governments and even though they're not 25 present today, they are present in spirit and also with CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 157 1 words that they have given me to present today as part 2 of their testimony. 3 So let the record show that the 19 Pueblos 4 were represented by the All Indian Pueblo Council.^ 5 Thank you very much. 6 [^DULY NOTED] 7 MS. MELTZER: Thank you. 8 Before we move on to Mr. Weahkee, I just want 9 to the acknowledge that comment and indicate to both 10 you and Governor Shije and all the members of the 11 audience, that we appreciate that while not everybody 12 who would like to attend attended this hearing or even 13 the one in San Francisco or the U.S. Patent and 14 Trademark Office are able to. 15 We realize that there's great concern about 16 this issue, and whether people submit written testimony 17 or ask representatives to give oral testimony, that 18 indeed they're thinking about this issue and it's an 19 important one. 20 So thank you for reminding us that merely 21 because people aren't physically present here today, it 22 doesn't mean they don't think this issue is important. 23 Thank you. 24 MR. STANLEY PINO: Thank you very much. 25 MS. MELTZER: Mr. Weahkee. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 158 1 MR. WILLIAM WEAHKEE: My name is William 2 Weahkee. I don't have a title on the agenda because 3 they didn't know which hat I was going to wear at the 4 time. 5 (Laughter) 6 MR. WILLIAM WEAHKEE: And I think I will 7 wear both hats at this time. 8 My name is William Weahkee. I'm the Executive 9 Director for the Five Sandoval Indian Pueblos, the 10 little pueblos that surround Albuquerque on the north 11 side. 12 I'm also the only Indian member on the 13 Petroglyph Monument Advisory Commission, appointed by 14 Mr. Babbitt at the national level. 15 Since I do work a lot with symbols, I have 16 worked a lot with the architects, the authors and the 17 people, the anthropologists and people who study, for 18 instance, rock art. 19 A lot of those symbols have now been taken 20 over but mostly by non-Indians and non-Indian firms, as 21 you will see, the various ways they portray animals, 22 deers, turkey, bears and what-not, without even asking, 23 without even being given permission. 24 They act like it's just free for the taking, 25 free for the asking -- I mean not "free asking" but CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 159 1 free for the taking. That is what has been happening 2 for the past two or three centuries since non-Indians 3 have came to this world. 4 The Spaniards have also had some other little 5 crosses up there but none of that has been, you know, 6 misappropriated or taken because the Spanish were aware 7 of how to use their symbols and stuff and how to 8 protect them. 9 The Indians are finding themselves at a 10 disadvantage all the time mostly because we don't 11 understand your systems, your ways of doing things. 12 And this is the first time we've really seen a 13 good or a great effort on your part or the part of the 14 PTO to come into this area to start rectifying or at 15 least straightening up or trying to help alleviate 16 problems at this level. 17 A lot of our artists now know how to use copy- 18 right but the tribes themselves, as a whole, have never 19 indicated one way or the other these things were there 20 for the taking. They never said that it was free. 21 They never said that this could be done and, yet, this 22 still happens. 23 The biggest, I guess, culprit, if you want to 24 put it in a blunt way, is the State of New Mexico. 25 Whether these people that study the Indian CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 160 1 symbols come into New Mexico, they study the Indian 2 symbols and their backgrounds and everything are 3 scholarly and all that, but the point is, they are not 4 Indian people, they have not lived that type of life. 5 The people from Acoma, especially Peter Pino 6 has put it eloquently - Those symbols are many times 7 taken off the other symbols that people have used for 8 centuries and that are sacred. 9 They didn't tell you or they didn't mention 10 about the symbols of the four directions that the Keres 11 Tribes - at least I know that - have used; the four, 12 the sun, the four rays, the four ways, they have the 13 four directions and they have the four seasons, et 14 cetera. 15 These things are tied in with song. They're 16 tied in with the ritual. They're tied in with things 17 that we cannot divulge because what happens when we 18 divulge something like that, it's always exploited at 19 our expense. Nothing comes back to the tribes. 20 Anything you do, if you see the quality of the 21 craftsmenship that the Indians have, you just have to 22 go walk over to the Indian Pueblo Cultural Center and 23 you'll see that the Indian craftsmen people and ideas 24 are second to none in the world. They're second to 25 none in the world. We're tops. We have our ways of CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 161 1 doing things. We have our ways of improving things. 2 We have our ways of developing things that, you know, 3 come from our background and our ideas and stuff like 4 this. Therefore, they should not be taken away. They 5 should not be 'ex-appropriated', or appropriated for 6 somebody else, for somebody else's good. 7 So I really wanted to say that. 8 I hope and I really request that you do 9 everything in your power to understand the Indian side 10 of these things. They're not games. They're not for 11 play and they're not for sale a lot of times. So we 12 have to understand that. 13 You're coming into our area now and we've got 14 a developed culture here. We've got our own religion. 15 We've got our own ways. 16 From the day that the child is born till the 17 day it dies, there's rituals, there's prayers, there's 18 stuff like this and all of it's tied in with the 19 symbolisms, different kinds. 20 A lot of it we may use in our own logos, but 21 we think we have the right to use them but nobody else, 22 in some cases. 23 So I think, with that in mind, just everything 24 has been said. A lot of it, I already agree with. I 25 support it wholeheartedly. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 162 1 But I really wanted to say that something must 2 be done and you are the forerunners or the front or the 3 shop troop, so-to-speak, you need to get out there and 4 understand us. We've been trying to do that for years 5 with you. It doesn't work. 6 But if you can come down and see what we're 7 talking about, even though, a lot, we don't speak the 8 language that good or some of our people don't speak it 9 that well, we still have to have some way for you to 10 understand us and to go beyond just what we're trying 11 to say to you because, a lot of times, we can't explain 12 the whole thing because it's tied with other things, 13 other concepts, other rituals and stuff like this. 14 Welcome and I thank you very much. 15 MS. MELTZER: Mr. Weahkee, I heard and 16 your comments actually raised one question, and based 17 on both your personal experience, who you are and in 18 your work with the Petroglyph Advisory Commission, in 19 what way could our office be notified of symbols that 20 are important to Native Americans but not necessarily 21 adopted as their official insignia? 22 MR. WILLIAM WEAHKEE: The Petroglyph 23 National Monument, for instance, we are making plans 24 and we have already started the process of identifying 25 every, every petroglyph that is in the Petroglyph CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 163 1 National Monument Park. 2 There's over 17,000 different kinds of images 3 and designs and things like this. The Park Service is 4 cataloguing those and they are identifying their exact 5 locations and they're giving them descriptions of what 6 they are and where they are by both the mapping 7 institutions. 8 I don't know anything about mapping but 9 they're focusing it on a mapping situation where they 10 can identify exactly where that is, so that if it's 11 destroyed or any were damaged in the future, we'll know 12 what happened. 13 Those kinds of figures will be made available 14 to you if you would ask us or I could make it my job to 15 make sure that you get copies of this so that it will 16 be in your records or in your files. 17 Like I say, a lot of those are not being asked 18 for or to be kept by Indians only, because we do want 19 to share. We would like for people to come up there 20 and look at them, but not necessarily exploit them to 21 where they make profit all the time and not give 22 anything back to the Indian people at all. 23 MS. MELTZER: Thank you very much for 24 your comments and for your offer, and if you don't have 25 any further to add, we'll thank you very much for your CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 164 1 testimony. 2 MR. WILLIAM WEAHKEE: Thank you very 3 much. 4 MS. MELTZER: Thank you. 5 Before Professor Bobroff gives his testimony, 6 may I ask that David Lester -- Thank you very much. 7 Could you come up to the table? I think you two are 8 the last two scheduled speakers. 9 And then after you two finish giving your 10 testimony, if anybody who is the audience maybe would 11 like to make comments, we would certainly welcome 12 those. 13 PROFESSOR KENNETH BOBROFF: Thank you for 14 the opportunity to testify this afternoon. My name is 15 Kenneth Bobroff. I'm an Assistant Professor at the 16 University of New Mexico. 17 One of prerogatives of being a Professor is 18 that I don't have to put on a suit and I get to 19 pontificate. 20 And I have prepared some written remarks but I 21 thought it might be more useful if I could try to give 22 an academic perspective on some of the issues that have 23 been raised this morning. 24 Before I do that, I think it's important to 25 recognize both Senator Bingaman's leadership but, even CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 165 1 more importantly, the foresight of the leaders of Zia 2 Pueblo and the perseverance that they have demonstrated 3 over the years in keeping this issue moving forward. 4 Without the leadership exercised by Zia, this 5 issue would not be on America's radar screen at all. 6 As a student of U.S. Indian policy, it's 7 striking how the most serious injustices have always 8 been done by government commissions when they didn't 9 listen to Indians and when Indian voices were not heard 10 prior to policy being made. So I think it's highly 11 significant that you've been able to hear this morning 12 many different voices expressing the concerns and 13 preferences, thoughts of different Indian people on 14 this issue, and you would be wise, if you want to do 15 justice, to pay heed to those expresssions. 16 I'd like to start out by suggesting that you 17 have probably learned some valuable lessons this 18 morning, but two I would emphasize in particular 19 because the first is a lesson that probably is taught 20 at no law school, or very few law schools, but it's 21 regularly taught at the University of New Mexico of 22 which we are quite proud, is: You cannot graduate from 23 our Law School without understanding that there are not 24 two sovereigns in America, but there are three. 25 There's not only the United States and the state CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 166 1 governments but there are also Indian tribes and the 2 importance of seeing Indian tribes as sovereigns and 3 understanding that continuing status as sovereigns goes 4 a long way towards giving you direction on how this 5 policy should take effect. 6 Most specifically, there were questions raised 7 about: Well, what should be the definition of an 8 official insignia? 9 The answer is fairly simple: The definition 10 of an official designation of an official insignia is 11 what the tribe says it is. 12 If the tribe passes official resolutions 13 saying that it has two official insignias, then that is 14 their official insignias and should be recognized in 15 the same way that if the County of Bernalillo wants to 16 have two official insignias or the Governor and the 17 Lieutenant Governor of the State of New Mexico want to 18 add official insignias, those are recognized. 19 The second main point I would say is that it's 20 clear that if tribes are treated as they should be, 21 which is as governments, that this proposed policy to 22 prohibit registration, unauthorized registration of 23 their marks, and prohibiting unauthorized use of those 24 marks should not create administrative difficulties 25 that are insurmountable. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 167 1 Indeed, I don't think it's particularly a big 2 deal in terms of the statutory changes required or the 3 changes in the administration that are required. 4 In some ways, it's difficult to fully address 5 tribes' concerns about their official insignia, because 6 while tribes are governments just like states, 7 municipalities, if anything they're older and they have 8 this inherent sovereignty in ways that those 9 governments do not. 10 Tribes are both the same and they're 11 different. They're the same as governments. To 12 distinguish them from other groups and special interest 13 groups, one of the trade groups in their comments 14 initially suggested, that this was opening a gate for 15 other special interest groups to act. 16 Other minority groups are not like tribes. 17 They are not governments. They are not sovereigns. 18 In this sense, you're correct in treating the 19 tribes just like states, municipalities and foreign 20 nations. 21 But in some ways, tribes and their need to 22 protect intellectual property is different. It's 23 different for a couple of reasons. One, it's different 24 because of the Trust responsibility. 25 In figuring out how the United States CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 168 1 Government has the right to exercise power over Indian 2 Tribes who, after all, never consented to it, never 3 agreed to be part of the United States of America, the 4 concept of the Trust responsibility was created. 5 It was this notion that if the United States 6 was going to exercise power over Indian peoples, then a 7 responsibility went along with that, to exercise it in 8 a way to protect Indian people and their resources. 9 This is a reality or a concept that extends to 10 all segments of the federal government, not just the 11 Bureau of Indian Affairs, but also the Patent and 12 Trademark Office, and it is a legal concept that is 13 inapplicable to municipalities, states and foreign 14 nations. 15 Secondly, tribes don't have the same sorts of 16 resources that states and municipalities have, to 17 protect their use of their insignia. If the State of 18 New Mexico wants to decide that it is illegal to put 19 the Zia sun symbol on a porta-pottie, it can do that 20 and it can enforce that law. 21 Because of the great restriction in the 22 authority of Indian Tribes, they don't have that 23 authority to stop me in Albuquerque, although they 24 might here in this spot which is Trust land, but if I 25 were at my house, they couldn't stop me from using a CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 169 1 symbol in any way I want. So tribes are without that 2 authority to enforce the protection of their symbols, 3 themselves, 4 Nor do tribes have the monetary authority, as 5 the testimony from attorneys this morning indicated, to 6 enforce their rights privately. There's this image in 7 mainstream American that all Indians are rich now 8 because of gambling and, I guarantee you, it is not 9 true. 10 A very, very small number of tribes have legal 11 resources sufficient to protect their intellectual 12 property rights, themselves. 13 The vast majority of tribes have such 14 tremendous needs and such tremendous demands on their 15 resources for life-and-death kinds of concerns that it 16 is only the tribes which are most committed to this 17 issue and to the importance of their symbols, such as 18 Zia Pueblo, that are able to devote resources to it and 19 take away resources from places that they may be of far 20 more immediate use. 21 There are also concerns, or differences, 22 rather, in that the intellectual property that we're 23 talking about, when we're talking about official 24 insignias and symbols, is in many respects, in most 25 respects, not commercial. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 170 1 So to the extent that the patent or that the 2 trademark laws are aimed at protecting commercial use, 3 it is not helpful to Indian Tribes. 4 So if the Pueblo of Zia is in a position of, 5 if it wants to protect its symbol, itself, of putting 6 it into commercial use, particularly when these symbols 7 are in the religious nature, that puts tribes in a 8 difficult, untenable position. 9 The fact that these symbols are, as I believe 10 it was Mr. Weahkee who said, "community property," 11 means that trademark law also has a difficulty in 12 protecting it. 13 It's the property of the entire pueblo. 14 Trademark law is more comfortable when it can 15 focus just on a corporation or individual. This is 16 another difference when the trademark law should be 17 adjusted to fit the reality of Indian peoples. 18 There have been questioned raised by 19 international obligations. I'm not an expert on the 20 Paris Convention but I would like to draw your 21 attention to evolving international standards or 22 evolving standards of international law relating to the 23 rights of indigenous peoples. 24 I would draw your attention to Article 29 of 25 the draft United States declaration on the rights of CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 171 1 indigenous peoples and obligations of states to act, to 2 provide special protection to intellectual property 3 rights of indigenous people. 4 Commissioner Dickinson raised some concerns 5 about opposition in cancellation proceedings and I 6 would suggest that the distinction that was drawn by 7 Attorney Mielke of differences between historical and 8 new designs might well be worth study as a way of 9 providing grounds for which cancellation and opposition 10 could be considered while respecting the long history 11 and traditional use rights and also vested property 12 rights of trademark owners. 13 In closing, I would like to draw your 14 attention to what has been a theme running through 15 today's discussions; that as Indian peoples have dealt 16 with invasion of non-Indians, there has been a 17 succession of takings. Non-Indians took Indian land. 18 They took land, language. They took Indian culture. 19 They appropriated freely. 20 In almost every case where non-Indians have 21 come in to take something, there have grown up these 22 myths that "Well, the Indians didn't really own it in 23 the first place." 24 Yesterday, I was reading the Congressional 25 Hearings from 1920 where testimony was given that the CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 172 1 pueblos didn't really own the land grants, they were 2 granted them by Mexico. 3 In this same fashion, there has been myths 4 that the petroglyphs weren't created by Indians, they 5 were actually created by Boy Scouts. 6 There's a myth that the Black Hills were never 7 owned by the Lakota, that the Lakota actually moved 8 there in about 1750. 9 I would suggest that the notion that the Zia 10 did not own that sun symbol is in the same class of 11 myths. 12 One of the things that is most attractive 13 about living in New Mexico for non-Indians is the 14 tremendous cultural diversity that we have. 15 Like the representative from the American 16 Trademark Association, it is a cultural heritage that 17 we are proud of, but she suggested that it is a 18 cultural heritage that we all want to share and 19 protect. 20 And I would suggest that the determination of 21 whether to share the cultural heritage of Indian 22 peoples is a determination for those peoples to make 23 and if they want to share it with us non-Indians, we 24 are fortunate and should be thankful but we should not 25 seek to take it. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 173 1 And the laws of the United States should be 2 such that tribes can exercise their rights to control 3 their symbols and insignia, can decide whether they 4 should be used commercially or not, and have remedies 5 when others seek to take that property unfairly. 6 Thank you. 7 MS. MELTZER: Thank you very much. 8 We don't have any questions. Thank you very 9 much for your testimony. 10 MR. A. DAVID LESTER: I'm Davis Lester 11 and I'm the Executive Director for the Council of 12 Energy Resource Tribes headquartered in Denver, 13 Colorado. 14 The Council of Energy Resource Tribes, 15 commonly referred to as CERT, is a tribal organization 16 comprised of 50 separate Indian Nations. 17 We were formed to prevent the theft of energy 18 resources from Indian land during the energy crisis of 19 the Seventies when both President Ford and President 20 Carter said that the federal government was dedicated 21 to producing all the domestic energy resources. 22 In the past, when there was a national 23 emergency and the nation perceived that it needed any 24 resource that an Indian had, it was soon legal to take 25 that resource from the Indian. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 174 1 I came here to support the Zia Pueblo who is a 2 founding tribe of the Council of Energy Resource Tribes 3 and to put more behind the effort than just asking for 4 their permission to use a stylized version of their sun 5 symbol as ours, because we use it because all energy on 6 earth is derived from the sun - wind energy as the 7 solar energy, and the fossil fuels obviously come from, 8 would not exist unless the sun gives its energy to 9 earth. 10 And but it's been very interesting to listen 11 to everyone before me and I don't disagree with 12 anything - on just about everything that's been said, 13 but I want to make sure that we understand that we're 14 approaching this from two different world views and 15 this cultural divide creates great misunderstanding. 16 Western civilization, centuries if not 17 millennia ago, began to separate in its own way of 18 looking at reality, spirit from matter, and it has 19 achieved a great deal from that. By doing that, the 20 whole science revolution is an outgrowth of that 21 separation. 22 But it came at a sacrifice of the spirit. We, 23 as Indian people, still come from a world in which the 24 spirit -- There's unity between matter and spirit; and 25 so when we speak of the pain, it's not commercial loss CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 175 1 or physical pain often that we speak of, it's a deeper 2 pain that is very difficult to express in English 3 because the English don't have the concept and so their 4 words can't really portray the feeling that Indians 5 have concerning their most sacred symbols, words, 6 designs. 7 And it does come up: Why are Indians raising 8 a fuss about it now? We've been around all this time. 9 Well, I remember as a grade school student, I 10 guess it was a long time ago - (Laughter) - when my 11 teachers referred to Indians as The Vanishing American. 12 The 19th Century fully expected that Indian Tribes 13 would have disappeared by now and that those few 14 remaining Indians would just be relics, you know, ready 15 to disappear. 16 There never was an expectation that Indian 17 Tribes would have the resurgence that we're 18 experiencing in the 20th Century. 19 And, so, we're really dealing with unfinished 20 business, issues that where America thought it would 21 not have to deal with in its earlier periods of 22 development, that reality is now forcing the United 23 States to deal with and America has changed. It's 24 changed enormously in terms of its values. 25 And we're grateful for this, you know, The CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 176 1 Creator, for bringing all of the people of the United 2 States closer together, that we can have this kind of 3 dialogue. 4 I think on the one hand, I see it as a symbol 5 of progress. On the other, as a citizen, I'm somewhat 6 ashamed of my country. 7 And as an Indian, I'm somewhat insulted that 8 we even have to discuss: Why should we protect Indian 9 symbols from misappropriate use? 10 But that's the -- At least we've come to the 11 point where we can discuss that and I think we should 12 see that as progress. 13 But I think it also is important to understand 14 that what we call as Indian Tribes and as we understand 15 ourselves is not exactly the same as the Bureau of 16 Indian Affairs considers or understands Indian Tribes. 17 The term itself is a legal term of art and is 18 an intellectual construct. And I, over the course of 19 my career, have served in a number of different 20 capacities, one of which was Commissioner for Native 21 Americans in the Department of Health and Human 22 Services where I had responsibilities for state- 23 recognized tribes, federally-recognized tribes and 24 other groups of Native Americans such as the American 25 Samoans, the Native Hawaiians, the Native peoples of CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 177 1 the possessions of the United States. 2 And I know that we use those terms and it 3 seems like we understand each other when we use those 4 words, but I came to realize that we don't understand 5 each other. 6 And so I'd like to add perhaps or suggest some 7 deeper clarity in terms of: What do you mean when you 8 say "Indian Tribe"? 9 You're asking us for definitions of insignia. 10 I think it's fair to ask that you should tell 11 us what you mean when you say "state-recognized tribe, 12 federally-recognized tribe" because as the lady from 13 the Cheyenne and Arapaho Tribes of Oklahoma pointed 14 out, their tribe was divided by the federal government. 15 There are two tribes living together, you 16 know, in Oklahoma and then there's the Northern 17 Arapahos living in Wyoming, and the Northern Cheyenne 18 live in Montana and it's very likely that they'll have 19 to get together and decide how they're going to share 20 common cultural heritage. There's two separate tribes 21 from a federal point of view. 22 And, so, it's very complex, but I think you 23 should make some effort to define what you mean. 24 And since states are forbidden by the 25 Constitution to deal with Indian affairs, the only CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 178 1 state-recognized tribes you should be dealing with are 2 those who were grandfathered in, who had political 3 relationships with the original colonies or other lands 4 taken in the expansion west, the tribes who had already 5 established relationships, that it's just not possible 6 for groups to petition the state to be recognized as an 7 Indian tribe. The states no longer have that 8 authority. The Constitution forbids it. 9 And as far as the cultural diversity in New 10 Mexico, there's far greater cultural diversity among 11 the Indians than there is among the rest of the state. 12 We may only represent the Indian people of 13 this country less than, you know, one percent of the 14 population but we actually are, about 90 percent, of 15 the cultural diversity. 16 One tribe is as different from each other as 17 is Germany from Greece. 18 And, so, this great diversity is a blessing, 19 not an administrative inconvenience. 20 And I'd like to address that because, often, 21 the federal government stumbles when somebody says, 22 "Well, how are we gonna do? How can we understand the 23 Indian people?" 24 And I think the thing that strikes me is that 25 when the arguments were being made in the Lincoln CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 179 1 Cabinet about the Emancipation Proclamation, some were 2 raising the question of feasibility and how do we 3 protect the property rights of the slaveholders? 4 And America is still asking those same kinds 5 of questions. How do we balance monetary value against 6 those values of humanity that you can't assign a 7 monetary value to? 8 And while it's pretty neat and exciting to 9 live in a market-driven society, it has some very 10 serious deficiencies, one of which, a glaring 11 deficiency I think, that the Pueblo representatives 12 referred to as an imbalance is the fact that when you 13 get to the deeper values, that which is worthless and 14 that which is priceless in a monetary system, gets 15 assigned the same monetary value: Zero. 16 And it's going to be a challenge I think for 17 PTO to balance that. The priceless value that Indians 18 put on certain symbols, words and design, versus the 19 commercial interests that a company or a person may 20 have. 21 But in the longer run, human progress is 22 measured by deepening society's attachment to human 23 values rather than deepening our attachment to monetary 24 value. 25 And we've made the greatest progress in CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 180 1 America when we've been able to overcome the argument 2 that "it costs too much to do the right thing" and to 3 go ahead and -- Because those who are paying for the 4 cost of the wrong thing are the Indian people, the 5 Indian Nations and they're paying for it in spiritual 6 and cultural and social costs that are difficult to 7 monetize. 8 And I would strongly recommend that the burden 9 of enforcement, the burden of administration could be 10 fairly borne, as has been suggested by a number of 11 speakers before you, that because Indian Tribes are 12 sovereign entities, separate and -- And let me speak to 13 that, too, because we're sovereign in a way that the 14 State of New Mexico is not sovereign, and that the 15 State of New Mexico is a political and intellectual 16 construct, a political construct, an Indian tribe was 17 created, in our view, by The Diety, and we were given a 18 way of life to follow, a path in life to follow. 19 A member of an Indian Tribe is not -- That 20 membership is different than citizenship. It's a -- 21 And, so, I guess what I'm referring to is the fact that 22 Indian Tribes, as separate political, cultural, even 23 spiritual communities, should be partners with PTO in 24 developing the procedures and in resolving the 25 conflicts. CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 181 1 We prefer systems that allow a conflict to be 2 resolved and balance to be restored rather than to have 3 a winner-take-all kind of adversarial relationships 4 that is prominent in our system of government in the 5 United States. 6 And I think many of the tribal spokesmen spoke 7 to "Let's sit down and see if we can work it out 8 first". 9 And I think also in terms of the question of 10 definition, the tribes will present, if requested, 11 those words, symbols, designs that are, from their 12 point of view, desires of being protected. 13 And you've heard the tribes say that all they 14 want is the same protection that is afforded other 15 units of government. 16 I will step one further, you know, and I'm not 17 expanding on that, but I am saying that that's deeply 18 rooted in the desire to -- And I'll end with this, 19 because of all the diversity in Indian Country from one 20 tribe to another and their political, cultural, their 21 spiritual, and language, there are things that I found 22 that they all hold in common, and that is: They're 23 based on honor and respect, the reciprocal 24 responsibility of all the parties involved to honor and 25 respect one another in the process of working out CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 182 1 problems, and that it makes it very hard for us to deal 2 with in a system in which the victory is everything and 3 honor and respect for your opponent is nothing. 4 And so we're asking that we introduce or you 5 introduce and help us build on that tradition of honor 6 and respect. 7 Thank you. 8 MS. MELTZER: Mr. Lester, we don't have 9 any questions but we would like to thank you for your 10 call for clarification of the definition of Indian 11 Tribes and I think that's quite an insightful remark 12 and we would actually be grateful to both you and to 13 anybody in this room or to other members who would like 14 to provide some guidance for us on that particular 15 point. 16 And, so, as we are searching for definition of 17 official insignia, we're also searching for a 18 definition of whose official insignia should be 19 protected? 20 Thank you. 21 We're at the end of those who were scheduled 22 to testify. I'd like to invite, at this point, anybody 23 who is in the audience who would like to make comments. 24 Is there anybody who would like to testify? 25 (Applause) CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 183 1 AUDIENCE: (Commentary in native tongue) 2 (Laughter) 3 MS. MELTZER: So I'd like to make a few 4 remarks that Commissioner Dickinson wanted to make this 5 morning, but wasn't able to, and it's just in the 6 nature of letting you know - although I realize, of 7 course now realize that we need to do more - what we 8 currently do at the Patent and Trademark Office to 9 attempt to honor and protect the official -- what we 10 think are the official insignia of Native American 11 tribes. 12 Currently, the Trademark Act has a statutory, 13 a legal prohibition against the registration of any 14 mark that might give a false association as to the 15 origin of the goods or services. 16 And as Commissioner Dickinson pointed out this 17 morning, of course we extend that to words such as 18 "Zia," the Zia sun symbol. 19 So we have one attorney in our office, and 20 since 1994 when this issue was really brought to our 21 attention, we have continuously had one specialist in 22 the office to whom all of our applications that 23 contained words that we think refer to Native 24 Americans, that we believe have symbols or designs that 25 are those of Native Americans, or which have likenesses CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 184 1 of Native Americans, they're all sent to one attorney 2 and she is responsible for doing the research and 3 making the appropriate refusal. 4 Since she has, well, since -- There have been 5 two people now. Kathy De Jong was the attorney that 6 was primarily responsible for those cases. 7 Since that time, we believe we've done a much 8 better job, not a perfect job of course, but a much 9 better job of ensuring, from a defensive point of view, 10 that those who are not entitled to use these marks or 11 who are trying to exploit them or falsely suggest that 12 their goods or services come from Native American 13 sources, we're successfully issuing our refusal. 14 And typically what happens is, people realize 15 that of course the refusal is well-based and they 16 abandon the application. 17 As far as the cost of opposing or canceling 18 marks is concerned, we realize that there is a cost 19 involved. However, there is another process in our 20 office which is free. 21 It's called the Letter of Protest and although 22 it requires some careful monitoring of our trademark 23 applications, if a Letter of Protest provides 24 sufficient evidence that we must refuse registration of 25 a mark, then we will provide that evidence to the CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 185 1 examining attorney and that examining attorney will 2 issue a refusal. 3 The timing is important because we must 4 receive the evidence prior to the time that the 5 application is published for opposition. 6 The monitoring of our cases is made a little 7 bit easier because, now, on our website, we do have all 8 of our trademark application and registration status 9 information available. 10 So if you happen to know that there's an 11 application pending, you can certainly find out what 12 its status is. 13 And if it's appropriate, you can send in a 14 Letter of Protest and it will be addressed to a lady in 15 our office named Jessie Marshall. 16 And that's J-E-S-S-I-E, the last name is 17 Marshall, M-A-R-S-H-A-L-L. She's with the U.S. Patent 18 and Trademark Office. The street address is Suite 19 10B10, 2900 Crystal Drive, Arlington, Virginia. The 20 zip code is 22202. 21 So, to the degree that information is helpful 22 to anybody and you wanted it, of course we've conveyed 23 it to you. 24 If nobody has remarks from the floor, we want 25 to express our gratitude to everyone in the audience CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 186 1 for taking the time to come here, for taking the time 2 to inform us, to express to us the seriousness of this 3 issue and also to educate us on the spiritual, as well 4 as the legal aspects of tribal insignia, words and 5 ceremonies that we might not otherwise know about 6 except from the source - that is, you, who are 7 representatives or members of the various Native 8 American pueblos and tribes. 9 I'd also very much like to thank my 10 colleagues, Odette Bonnet and Steve Walsh as well as 11 our wonderful, tireless Court Reporter Charlotte Macias 12 for their efforts today. 13 So thank you all very much. 14 We will be available, as soon as I stop 15 talking, to answer any of your questions informally. 16 Thank you very much. 17 (Applause) 18 [3:00 P.M., ADJOURNMENT] 19 * * * 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719 187 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 I, CHARLOTTE MACIAS, a Certified Court 3 Reporter in the State of New Mexico, DO HEREBY CERTIFY 4 that the foregoing Transcript of Proceedings, Public 5 Hearing, before the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office of 6 the Department of Commerce, taken on July 8, 1999, is a 7 complete and accurate verbatim record of the 8 proceedings taken by me in stenographic shorthand. 9 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither employed 10 by nor related to any of the parties in this proceeding 11 and that I have no interest whatsoever in the outcome 12 of the proceedings. 13 WITNESS MY HAND this 13th day of July, 1999, 14 at Albuquerque, New Mexico 87112. 15 16 ____________________________ CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NMCCR#161 17 License Expires: 12-31-99 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHARLOTTE MACIAS, NM CCR#161 (505) 296-0719