Briefing En Route Ankara, Turkey

UNDER SECRETARY HUGHES: I was telling Robert it was really interesting at the Majlis last night, and I wish you all had been able to be there.

QUESTION: (Inaudible.)

UNDER SECRETARY HUGHES: We were told it was a private event in a private home and it wouldn’t be appropriate, and then we got there and there were like -- there were several local journalists and there were 40 people, and so I really feel bad because it would have been interesting for you to see. It was very -- I mean, I’m not sure it was -- it was more like a compendium of everything you’ve heard but all at once, and very passionate. I thought it was interesting that there were some things about it that were not traditional. For example, it was a crowd of both men and women, which is not typical in Saudi Arabia. But the Majlis itself is a typical vehicle for debate and discussion of political issues. Obviously, people are accustomed to coming and being very bold and very forthright and very passionate about expressing their views. And so they did so. As we did in Egypt, we heard there’s not unanimity of opinion, even in a room of 40 people. I mean, some people would tell me you need to speak up more and other people would say, well, you know, you don’t need to impose your view. And so, you hear a lot of mixed things.

QUESTION: What was the format?

UNDER SECRETARY HUGHES: The host sort of served as moderator, but then had someone else pretty quickly take over. And there was a real division in the room about whether they wanted me to answer questions or whether they wanted to talk -- express their opinions. And so one man very adamantly demanded that I answer his question, and his question was, "What do you want?" And he meant, in terms of going into Afghanistan and going into Iraq, "What do you want?" And I think it’s really interesting, as a communicator, after so many years of us talking about our policies and what we are trying to achieve, there’s still obviously a great deal of skepticism and just questions about what’s the -- one person said we think you have a hidden motive.

QUESTION: Right.

UNDER SECRETARY HUGHES: In terms of the democracy agenda. And I tried to explain that we believe that this is in our national security interests. We believe it’s in your best interests, and that’s the motive. And that’s the agenda.

QUESTION: Did he suggest what the motive might be?

UNDER SECRETARY HUGHES: No, he didn’t. In fact I asked him, and he didn’t answer the question. But there was this other man who said "What do you really want? What do you really want?" And I said, well, explain to me what you’re trying to get at. Are you trying to ask the oil question? And so I talked a little bit. Well then I started answering the question, and a bunch of other people were irate, because they didn’t want me to answer the question. They wanted to express their point of view. So it was very much a free-for-all. It was a very free-spirited discussion. I think you ought to talk to our Citizen [Ambassadors] about it, because at the end I think Bill was the biggest hit of all, because Bill stood up at the very end and said, "You know, until I came here tonight, I didn’t know anything about you, and when I walked in here you were a bunch of strangers and I didn’t know much about Saudi Arabia, and I didn’t know anything about your culture and --" he said, "But now, this is how I feel," and he reached out and grabbed the host in a big bear hug, and the whole room applauded. So it was a very -- Bill was obviously the -- Senator Feingold knew what he was doing when he chose to send Bill to the Middle East on this tour. He’s a very expressive person who has related really well to a lot of these audiences.

QUESTION: What was the mix of people in the room? Were they mostly college-educated or they -- what’s the background?

UNDER SECRETARY HUGHES: The two people who seemed to be angriest were a couple of young -- I would say teenagers, who brought packets of information. They were very angry about Israel. I couldn’t tell if they were college students or not. They looked a little younger than college. It was a great spread of ages, I mean, teenagers to gray-haired, older, you know, I won’t describe what I think of as older, but gray hair. (Laughter) Not too senior, but senior, you know, senior statesmen.

QUESTION: On the subject of Israel, for example, were they specific about their questions?

UNDER SECRETARY HUGHES: One of the interesting things is that I’ll mention real quickly is that they started going around the room. And so the first couple of people were men. And very quickly, the Ambassador picked up on the fact that if we kept going around the room, we were going to hear from all men. And so the Ambassador Oberwetter spoke up and said, you know, "We’d like to hear from a few women." And so they called on a woman, and then I answered a question, and they decided that was two women, so they had to go back to the men. And the moderator said none of the rest of the women want to ask questions, and all the women said "Oh, yes we do." So it was a very interesting dynamic. On Israel, the young men obviously are -- and I told them that, as a mother, I hate the fact that they have seen so much killing and violence. They had pictures, and they just talked about the horror of military strikes. As I observed so many times in Egypt and Saudi Arabia, when you talk about the Israeli-Palestinian issue, you tend to hear -- for example yesterday in Egypt, and just like last night -- you hear about the Israeli retaliation. You don’t hear about the Hamas strike. So I made that point to them, because I think one of the things I need to do is to make sure we talk about these issues. So I made the point that "why don’t you talk about that?" And these young men have just a very different view.

QUESTION: They see Hamas as a resistance group?

UNDER SECRETARY HUGHES: That it’s a resistance, and it’s the only way that people who don’t have a large military capability can make a point. Of course, we reject that view, and I explained that and feel very strongly that --

QUESTION: Do you feel that they give credit to President Bush for being the first president who is supporting a Palestinian state? Or do they feel as if there is a lack of follow-up on this, and that the progress is not really enough?

UNDER SECRETARY HUGHES: I guess from my point of view I’ve been a little surprised that he doesn’t get more credit. There is very much a feeling -- they acknowledge that, oh yes, he called for a Palestinian state. But then they want to quickly talk about "well, but Israel did this." So it’s a very antagonistic attitude that I’ve been hearing toward Israel. It’s more directed that way than it is even to the United States. I would say it’s more directed, and I have explained that, of course, the United Nations supports Israel’s right to exist and we also support a state for the Palestinian people. And that sort of goes over your head, and they say "but Israel did this." So it’s obviously very deep-seated, and of course it’s longstanding. That’s been the case for a number of years.

QUESTION: How about Iraq? Were they unequivocal -- the ones you talked to, in their view -- that we should just simply withdraw, or do they see some kind of middle ground?

UNDER SECRETARY HUGHES: It’s interesting. I haven’t heard one person suggest a solution. What they do is decry the situation, but I don’t hear what you should do. So when you ask questions -- "well, do you agree that it’s better that Saddam Hussein is not in power"-- it’s "yes but -- but we don’t like what’s happening there." So "well, do you agree the insurgents there are the ones mostly engaged in killing?" "Yes but." So there are obviously very deep-seated feelings, and that is a reminder of the challenge we face.

QUESTION: Going back to the subject of the President, did anyone speak specifically about President Bush -- their feelings about him, objections to him?

UNDER SECRETARY HUGHES: I haven’t really heard a lot of that. I had one person at one lunch raise the issue of the President mentioning God in his speeches. And I asked whether he was aware that previous American presidents have also cited God, and that our Constitution cites "one nation under God." He said "well, never mind" and went on to something else. So he sort of was trying to equate that with the terrorists’ (inaudible). So I explained that I didn’t really think that was something you could equate. And he sort of dropped it and moved on. He was one of the opposition leaders in Egypt.

QUESTION: To go to the lunch today, why did you make the point about the religious literature in the American mosques? The Ambassador had said that no U.S. official had actually talked about that publicly.

UNDER SECRETARY HUGHES: We had been raising the issue privately, and as part of raising difficult issues that we need to discuss I felt it was appropriate. We need to talk about -- one of my jobs is to raise issues in, I hope, a respectful way, to help other countries understand the concerns Americans have. That’s part of a dialogue. It’s not just hearing the concerns they have. It’s hearing the concerns Americans have. So I raised a lot of issues -- about women, I raised the issue of driving, because as you heard the women talk about "why do Americans have this view of us?" I think it’s important that they understand that for many American women it’s a symbol. Driving is a symbol. We can’t imagine not being able to drive ourselves to work, or drive to wherever. I assume every woman on this plane, we drive ourselves places. So it’s not that it’s the only issue, but it’s an issue that becomes a symbol, I think, in the mind of our country. So I think one of my jobs is to help, again, in I hope a respectful way, to put some of those hard issues on the table and say "let’s talk about these issues."

QUESTION: Do you think the Saudis should allow women to drive? Is that a human rights issue?

UNDER SECRETARY HUGHES: As I said, as an American woman I believe it’s an important expression of my freedom that I am able to drive. As I said, what we are advocating is greater political participation for Saudi women so that they can make those kinds of choices, recognizing that their society has a very different culture and very different traditions.

QUESTION: Did you raise the issue of women and the issue of Iraq with the King this afternoon?

UNDER SECRETARY HUGHES: It was my first time to meet the King, so it was really an introductory visit. I had not met the King before. I conveyed the President’s regards to the King. I explained what my new job is, but no, I did not specifically raise those issues with the King.

QUESTION: Was it more ceremonial than substantive?

UNDER SECRETARY HUGHES: Well, it was more of an introductory meeting. I think in a follow-up meeting, I would feel very comfortable raising those issues. But I met not only with the King. The Foreign Minister was there. I met earlier today with the Crown Prince. So I met with a number of leaders. Some of those issues had been raised at different levels of our government. But my meeting with the King today, because it was my first time to meet him, was more of a -- we talked on personal terms about each other and --

QUESTION: Can I just follow up on the driving? When John and I and a couple others were with Secretary Rice in Saudi Arabia in June, she specifically did not make an issue of the driving, making the case that "that’s not what matters to me right now." "What matters is they get some political participation. Then they can decide." Did you talk to her about this before you raised this issue, and why, specifically, raise this now when she had not wanted to raise it a couple months ago.

UNDER SECRETARY HUGHES: Well again, it’s a part of slowly advancing ideas. I raised it in the same context the Secretary did, in terms of this is a matter of growing political participation for Saudi women, and letting them speak and have a greater voice in these kinds of decisions. But I also felt it was important -- because they opened the door to a discussion of their image in our country -- I felt it was important to share with them that driving is a symbol for many American women. It is a way in which we view their role in society. Not that it’s by any means the most important issue, but it is an issue, and somewhat of a symbol in America. I felt, again, part of my role is to let them hear the way, when they were expressing concern about Americans look at them, to let them hear the way Americans might view an issue like that.

QUESTION: You said on the way out that you had a huge challenge in front of you. Having spoken to all these people now, do you think it’s even (inaudible) than you thought it would be, or are you optimistic?

UNDER SECRETARY HUGHES: I think it’s confirmed that it’s a big challenge. One of the things that surprised me a little bit, I guess because I come from an American perspective, is that they view the challenge as equally great on their side. You heard them raise the issue of what is their image like, and how concerned they are about their image in America. So even the concern is a two-way street. It’s not just our concern about the way we are viewed, but their concern about the way we view their society.

QUESTION: I was a little surprised (inaudible) complain that the American image of the Saudis is that they are all terrorists. What was interesting to me was that the women complained that the American image of them was as slaves and unhappy. Did that strike you as a little surprising?

UNDER SECRETARY HUGHES: It did, because I think the women wanted – and I think the first question to me was "what do you think of Muslim women?" -- I think they wanted a recognition that they feel they are a very vibrant part of the life of their country, even though some of the traditions of their country are different than what we would think of as making them a vibrant part of their country. So I thought that was a very interesting point, Steve.

QUESTION: Did you hear in Saudi Arabia anything that you did not hear in Egypt?

UNDER SECRETARY HUGHES: We heard at the lunch with opinion leaders sort of the same concern from women about their image, probably a little more so in Saudi Arabia. There is a specific concern about --

QUESTION: You heard about the media issue (inaudible).

UNDER SECRETARY HUGHES: In both places. I heard that at the (inaudible).

QUESTION: You should have raised the idea of Minister of Media.

UNDER SECRETARY HUGHES: Dan said that he would volunteer, so --

QUESTION: Were you surprised or concerned when you heard this journalist say that Saudis are no longer defending -- that they do like America, that they are talking about why they hate America? The guy at the lunch said "we don’t say we don’t hate America, we say why we hate America." He was talking in the present tense. That’s not something that is changing. Was that surprising to you? How did you feel hearing that?

UNDER SECRETARY HUGHES: I don’t think it’s a sentiment that everyone has. That’s not what I heard last night. I heard specific complaints, concerns, but I didn’t hear -- he used the words "hate America" -- I really didn’t hear that in many other places. I heard a lot of -- in fact in Egypt -- "we really do like America." "We’re really concerned about Iraq." I heard issue-specific concerns.

QUESTION: (Inaudible.)

UNDER SECRETARY HUGHES: But it underscores the depth of the problem.

QUESTION: Did you have any occasion at all to raise the question of why the Saudis have not supported, financially, the Gaza disengagement? They haven’t stepped forward to put up money for the funding of the reconstruction of Gaza.

UNDER SECRETARY HUGHES: I didn’t talk about that in Saudi. I did talk about -- not the Saudi issue -- but I talked about Gaza disengagement in Egypt. But I did not talk about it here in Saudi.

QUESTION: A woman got up and said "you see us as slaves in our own homes, and all that, but the truth is we’re all happy." Do you buy that? I mean, do you believe that? Do you believe Saudi women are all happy and content with their current --

UNDER SECRETARY HUGHES: I had been told before that there was a lot of concern about the specific -- there was apparently a specific program that a lot of women really objected to, that they thought portrayed all Saudi women in one vein. It was about an abused spouse. I have to say I was impressed by the Saudi women I met, and by their outspokenness and their intelligence. They clearly feel very much a part of the debate in their society, even though I think for Americans that’s hard for us to understand given that they are not allowed to vote in their society. But they clearly feel that they have a voice, and they are able to speak out, and they are able to influence their society.

QUESTION: Last night you mentioned that people had voice concern vis-a-vis Israel, vis-a-vis our policies in Iraq. Did anybody voice any concern about terrorism? Did any of them bring up their -- did they denounce terrorism or see it as a security issue for themselves?

UNDER SECRETARY HUGHES: That’s an interesting question. They almost took it as a given. They would say "of course, we’re worried about terrorism but…"

QUESTION: (Inaudible)

UNDER SECRETARY HUGHES: Well, it may be more of a -- I don’t know. I’ll have to think more about exactly why, but they --

QUESTION: (Inaudible). It’s not the first thing on their minds. Part of the point was, when you talk about suicide bombers, people who fly planes into buildings, where these people come from and why they do this, do these people in Saudi Arabia and Egypt share that opinion? Do they agree that, because of certain factors, these men grow up to be extremists and terrorists?

UNDER SECRETARY HUGHES: We had a conversation at lunch today where one of the journalists -- it was very interesting, I thought it was kind of an odd situation that the president of the journalists’ association was giving me his opinions on the situation. It was just sort of an odd one. It was sort of awkward, because at lunch, at our table, he was sort of "I want to make sure you know this, and you know this, and here’s what I think." What he said was "well, you know that most of these terrorists come from low income, and they’re not educated." And I said "well, but the problem is that that would not apply to the September 11 hijackers." "Well, you’re right about that, but --"

QUESTION: Or the British bombers.

UNDER SECRETARY HUGHES: Or the British. Exactly.

UNDER SECRETARY HUGHES: Okay, well thank you all.