< Chris Rock On Standup, Sellouts And Defining Success

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AUDIE CORNISH, HOST:

And quick - list your top five singers. Top five authors - no, wait, wait - top five comedians. Maybe Chris Rock would be on that list? In his new movie, Chris Rock plays that game. He wrote, starred in and directed "Top Five," which tells the story of a marquee comedian who's abandoned his stand-up roots for blockbuster franchise glory. The film unfolds over the course of a daylong interview with a reporter played by Rosario Dawson. As they walk around the city, they riff on politics, show business and their favorite artists in a series of top five lists.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM "TOP FIVE")

ROSARIO DAWSON: (As Chelsea Brown) Charlie Chaplin?

CHRIS ROCK: (As Andre Allen) Charlie Chaplin - he started [bleep] as the KRS-One of comedy.

(LAUGHTER)

ROCK: (As Andre Allen) Richard Pryor's the most honest human being - even Jesus didn't tell his followers everything. Like, Rich...

DAWSON: (As Chelsea Brown) Eddie Murphy.

ROCK: (As Andre Allen) ...Leave something out. I once saw Murphy and Michael Jackson within two months of each other and Eddie was better.

The thing we kept saying in the editing room was, OK, that feels too much like a movie, cut it - too much like a movie, cut it, cut, cut, cut - and took everything out that felt like a movie and just tried to make it feel as much like real life as possible.

CORNISH: This is Chris Rock's third outing as a director and it shows. You feel his confidence, it's fun. I asked him about an especially cool scene featuring an all-star cast of comedians including Tracy Morgan, Jay Pharoah, Leslie Jones and Michael Che - Chris Rock's character, Andre, is visiting his old neighborhood and his friends of course get into an argument about the top five rappers of all time.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM "TOP FIVE")

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (As Character) Son, when Nas focused, he better than Jay, man, I'm sorry. 'Cause Tupac was headed for...

LESLIE JONES: (As character) Or Tupac would be one of our political leaders.

ROCK: (As Andre Allen) Tupac might be a political leader if he was alive, but then again, Tupac might be in a Tyler Perry movie right now, so you don't know. He might be - Tupac might be the bad, dark-skinned boyfriend and the Tyler Perry movie...

JONES: (As character) I've got to agree with that right there.

ROCK: (As Andre Allen) ...I would hope he's a senator, but he might be kicking Jill Scott down a flight of stairs.

(LAUGHTER)

CORNISH: Which is the worst visual, but everyone in my theater cracked up about it - maybe 'cause they're really familiar with Tyler Perry films.

ROCK: Well, yeah. In Tyler Perry movies there's always, OK - there's a woman and she usually is in a bad relationship and the person she's in a bad relationship tends to have darker skin. And then she meets a nicer guy - who tends to have lighter skin. And he sweeps her off her feet. And that dark-skinned guy is mean on a level you've probably never seen in movies. So, yeah it's not - it wouldn't be crazy for Tupac to be kicking Jill Scott down a flight of stairs in a Tyler Perry movie.

CORNISH: You do such a good job of highlighting contradictions particularly like, within black culture of the things that kind of - we're nodding and getting it but feeling a little sheepish about it. Like, there were a lot of, kind of moments like that - with a joke like that.

ROCK: When I see a Woody Allen movie and I see them all - there's probably two scenes, or two moments in each movie that I don't get - but, you know, I actually like it in a weird way. It's like OK, this is really authentic, what I'm watching here - this is authentic to who he is. But, yeah, there's a bunch of jokes like that in this movie.

CORNISH: This is a character who's sort of forgotten where he comes from in terms of his own art, right? Like, he's become further and further divorced from doing stand-up itself. Do you - have you felt that way?

ROCK: I mean, I guess all comedians - that happens. I mean, stand-up is the only career like that where once you get really big at it, people kind of encourage you not to do it. Some of our greatest stand-ups don't do stand-up anymore. Steve Martin is one of the greatest stands-up to ever live - the guy doesn't do stand-up. Eddie Murphy - amazing, Michael Keaton, who's great in "Birdman," was like a really great stand-up comedian. So many guys don't do it anymore.

CORNISH: Do you feel like you make a special effort to stay with it? Or does it just feel like...

ROCK: I try to stay with it and I try to stay in contact with comedians and just keep comedians in my life 'cause comedians are their own species. If you get away from them, especially as a comedian, I think it's dangerous.

CORNISH: I actually want to get your opinion on the fact that, you know, it was a stand-up performance - it was a comedian, Hannibal Buress, that kicked off the new scrutiny of the Bill Cosby allegations.

ROCK: I don't know, what do you want to say? I mean, I...

CORNISH: Well, what do you make of the fact that it was comedy that kind of forced people to talk about this again? I know Leslie Jones said about your movie that comedians are the one who have to tell the emperor he has no clothes on. And it feels like you also are someone who's used comedy to maybe speak uncomfortable things.

ROCK: You know, I mean, I can't really speak for Hannibal. I don't think he anticipated the phones and I don't think anticipated something going viral. I think he thought he was doing something just for the people in that room - and I know, as naive as that sounds.

CORNISH: Is that possible anymore? - to do comedy and expect it to be just in that room?

ROCK: Is it possible to do anything...

CORNISH: Right.

ROCK: ...And expect it to be private? That's the real question. I don't know.

CORNISH: I've seen it argued that this is an example of why there shouldn't be taboos in comedy, you know, there's a strain of political correctness, I think, that people have talked about - comedians have certainly talked about - and someone said hey, this is a good example of why we have to be able to talk about anything.

ROCK: Hey, everything's funny - in the right context and done by the right person - everything, unfortunately. You know, I've told Michael Jackson jokes. If you got really technical, you could say those are jokes about child molestation. You could, if you got technical. A lot of this is just selective outrage because honestly, the audience are the ones that tell us that something shouldn't be spoken. The audience lets us know. And I've never, in my almost 30 years of being a comedian, seen a comedian continue to tell a joke that the audience doesn't respond to. I've never seen it.

CORNISH: Chris Rock and I talked a lot more about comedians he admires, about producing great work, he even critiqued my top five rappers - you know, you can hear all that on our website at npr.org. But just there when he mentioned being in the business for 30 years, I cannot help but wonder - at this point, what does he consider success?

ROCK: What is success? Success is just hanging out with my kids. I mean, I always say if you have options, you're rich. To me, success is the fact that hey, I just did a movie and maybe I'll do some stand up, maybe I'll will write a book or maybe I will do a play. Like, I literally don't know what I'm going to do next. That's successful. And just having time, you know, I've got - this whole upheaval in late-night - late-night and day-time - so I got a few job offers - And they work all the time. Like, work all the time when you do one of these shows. And I always said, you know, my dad worked every day. I didn't get into show business to work every day. So the fact that most days I get to like, spend really good time with my kids - that's what success is to me.

CORNISH: Well, best of luck with the opening. Everyone here loved it, I expect other people to, too.

ROCK: Let's hope so. It's no black Annie, but what is?

CORNISH: (Laughter) It's a hard knocks life, yeah. All right, thank you so much for speaking with us.

ROCK: You take care.

CORNISH: Chris Rock, his latest film is "Top Five."

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "HARD KNOCK LIFE")

JAY Z: (Rapping) From standing on the corners boppin'. To driving some of the hottest cars New Yorker's ever seen - for dropping some of the hottest verses rap has ever heard. From the dope spot...

CORNISH: And this is NPR.

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