Dallas Cop Shooting Database Is Sobering, Fascinating

I would expect, with the increasing militarization of law enforcement and the criminal element (not to mention some of the population), this data is not going to improve anytime in the near future.  Not that the weaponry is going to encourage more violence, but the mindset becomes more insulated.  The more GIJoe the police get, the more they are going to see themselves as 'US' and the entire population served as 'Them'.

If we can't get rid of the us vs. them mindset on both sides of the blue line, none of the rest of this shit will make a bit of difference.

I'd be interested in seeing how many times the DPD have been shot at.  If it's anything like the national statistics, they're killing more frequently and being killed less frequently.

Kudos to Chief Brown for his pioneering the open and transparent view into what has been in the past an opaque and secretive affair.

The benefits of having the ability to review and understand how these events are handled will contribute to better relations between the police and the citizens.

I'm proud of how our Chief conducts himself and the direction he is leading the Dallas Police.

In the previous two years, DPD officers have shot and missed at suspects in 15 separate incidents.

It's widely known among private citizen gun owners that cops are terrible shots. Unless they are also a gun enthusiast (usually before becoming a cop), most cops never think about their weapons.  They shoot it just enough to qualify (which is a laughably easy test) and then never fire their weapon until it is time to qualify again.  They don't practice.  It's not uncommon to find a cop that hasn't cleaned or lubed their gun in years.

The wonder isn't that cops miss so much.  The wonder is that they so often hit.  I'll take a person with a CHL (who probably practices regularly, certainly more than 100 rounds a year) over a cop if I ever need help in a gunfight.

The data also illustrates just how thin that blue line is.  That's a bunch of shots fired.

For those of you who think cops have it far easier than they let on, anyone wanna be one?  There's typically a gunman on the other side of that equation.  An unknown unknown.  Somebody who is usually hopped up on something.  Or some drunk beating the hell out of his wife or girlfriend.  And sometimes she's the shooter too.  Anybody wanna be the first on the scene in a dark alley?

Because every one of those dry statistical record points represent a moment of fear, a shot of adrenaline, a shit pot full of paperwork and a tonne of second-guessing.

Who would want to put up with that crap after you tried to do the right thing, and by the book?

As one police chief said regarding Williams, had that cop not come out of that cruiser and pursued Williams, I would have fired him.

That is the promise the cop makes.  That he will overcome his fear and head into that dark alley, into that house where screams are heard, into the face of fear itself.  Into the unknown.

An occupying army. Not as bad as St Louis county, but the insulation from consequences is the same.

@ozma207

Yeah, sure, we can present the wireframe by EOY, enter beta testing by Q2CY2015,pending security requirements and clear sign-off authority...oh, wait, you mean you want the GOVERNMENT to create and maintain such a database?! What, are you nuts, did you sleep through the FBI's four-tries, multi-billion dollar failure, and the Obamacare website, and so much more?

Voila.  It's the numbers of officers assaulted, not just shot at.

http://www.dallaspolice.net/ois/docs/Charts/OIS_Charts_Assaulted.pdf

Looking at the averages of 2003-2006 vs. 2010-2013, cops are getting assaulted 20% less, but shooting 23% more. i.e. they used to shoot 1 in 16 people that assaulted them, now they shoot 1 in 11.

@mavdog Long before Chief Brown (whose son killed a cop), black activists - and a few Hispanics, lobbied for a Police Review Board, and eventually got it.  It's primary job is looking at police shootings and physical assaults to determine whether there was unreasonable force.  (They also look into other things.)

I'm all for anything we can do to reduce violence.  But, that's a dual job between the DPD and the minority community -- especially absentee fathers which are largely responsible for the 93% death rate of blacks at the hands of other blacks. 

In other words, we have a society that is more prone to violence than even in the days of the pioneers.  And, that's a terrible thing for everybody. 

@Rumpunch1 The worst one, to me, was the two officers who shot a guy with a knife - who was mentally ill - at a distance of over 20 feet.  There was no need to shoot the guy; he wasn't a danger to anyone, and it's very unlikely he was a circus knife thrower with great accuracy. 

@everlastingphelps Oh yeah, right.  Well-practiced gun nuts.  Shoot a hundred rounds like that nut in Austin.  Just what we need.

If anyone cares to read more: http://tacticalprofessor.wordpress.com/2014/11/09/what-is-the-value-of-training/

We’re the best shooters in our department, by far. That’s why we’re the firearms instructors. Then we come here and find out that we suck.

– A police officer attending the elite Rogers Shooting School

@holmantx There's an old saying about our military always running TO the sound of gunfire, and not away from it.  Our police officers are expected to do the same thing. 

@holmantx That is the promise the cop makes.  That he will overcome his fear and head into that dark alley, into that house where screams are heard, into the face of fear itself.

Yet, you think we should all sit there, helpless, terrified and screaming, while we wait for the cop to get around to the dark alley we are trapped in.

No thank you.  I don't have a problem with cops defending themselves.  I simply think that they should be held to the exact same standard as any other citizen -- and for the last couple of years, I think that has been the case in Dallas.  The cops are being held to the legal standard, while at the same time, private citizens who are forced to defend themselves aren't being thrown into the system where a cop wouldn't be charged.  That's the balance.

@ozonelarryb 

When are the protests scheduled for the allegations of racism by Officer Jesus Martinez when he arrested the panhandler?

@observist I admire their restraint. 

If someone assaults a cop, or threatens a cop, then they are asking to be shot - unless they are mentally ill. 

I'm all for using tasers when it's safe to do so.  But, the circumstances have to be right.

@doublecheese @everlastingphelps Different kind of gunfight, the same skills don't translate.  On an individual level, special ops guys and a few of the line troops might have the skills to transition to effective civilian or LEO gunfight skills.  By and large, from squad fires all the way up to DivArty, military firefight doctrine is to destroy the area that contains the enemy.  Enemy combatants, vehicles, buildings, streets, vegetation, everything and everyone in that area.

Not exactly what you want to achieve in a home or street defense situation.

@doublecheese @everlastingphelps

A LEO acquaintance once challenged me, a good pistol shot, to run 50 yards at top speed, then stop on a dime, unholster and raise the pistol, and do half as well as my range scores. I took his point, but not his challenge.

That said, combat vets need a lot of transition to become cops, starting with the basic assumption of protected civilian status. Military training is to destroy with massive firepower - as the Marines say, "we break things and kill people." (regardless of theater or even patrol ROE). "We don't want to be in a fair fight" is also a U.S. principle, meaning U.S. military will overpower by far.

There was a telling scene in the excellent movie "End Of Watch" when two cops came under sustained, heavy fire. The combat vet of the duo gave instructions to the non-vet cop to run and "empty your magazine." Perfect advice, but how often does this really happen to cops?

@doublecheese @everlastingphelps Oh, I get that.  That's why it is important to train to be able to hit the targets when they aren't shooting back.  The cops can't even do that.

And I follow Jeff Cooper's advice, if I'm in a gunfight, I want all my friends, with all their guns.  

@Myrna.Minkoff-Katz @everlastingphelps When was the last time NYPD fired less than 100 rounds in a shooting?

@everlastingphelps @holmantx

The citizen does not have a duty to act.  The citizen must show he retreated.  The citizen must have no other choice but to defend him or herself - to use deadly force.

I don't have a problem fine tuning procedure, but I do not think we should react to Ferguson as if the facts are relative where the Goddess of Justice is not longer blind.  That she is a respecter of persons (skin color, for instance).

Nor do I think cops should be ordered to keep their weapons in their vehicle, or we cut funding to where the officer on the beat is alone to even the odds.

It's a tough job and it doesn't pay much.  And most of the beat cops are the entry level and younger ones.  Lifers try and get away from the dangerous billets because, over time, it's like throwing dice with your job and/or your life.  Most cops will take a desk job if they can get it.

Crime's dropped according to the DO and why is that?

It's not because we have a more civil society.

It is because our cops are effective.

We'll find out just how effective at the next natural disaster, extended power outage, or other occurrence where the bad guys have an advantage.

Makes me want to go out and practice just thinking about it.

@ThePosterFormerlyKnownasPaul @ozonelarryb Only white people can be racist.  JWP said so.

@RTGolden1 @doublecheese @everlastingphelps Setting aside special ops requirements, most combat shooting IS very different than police officers in an urban area.

Actual combat can be madness, and I doubt it needs further description.  Police officers in an urban environment should be more accurate, more mindful of innocent bystanders or other officers, and mindful of how far a bullet will travel if it doesn't strike the target. 

One reason the FBI has special training for shootings is the need to develop the talent of shooting on the move, and being able to quickly distinguish targets from bystanders.  It's an acquired skill, and one that needs to be rehearsed a great deal. 

Reading about the misses for DPD makes me worry that they are not getting enough range time and instruction.  When they miss in an urban environment, they seriously risk hitting an innocent bystander.  That's not acceptable. 

@wcvemail @doublecheese @everlastingphelps Having actually served in combat in the military, I can promise a shooting confrontation is different than even the military training. 

Good marksmanship is a matter of not shaking, being calm and deliberate, and - in match shooting - breathing control. 

I can't imagine how a lone police officer deals with the unknown about a criminal - possible weapons, possible confederates, and shooting to miss civilians and animals. 

THAT IS NOT EASY!

I could miss a target in match shooting, and nothing happened other than a lower score.  An officer missing in a criminal confrontation could kill an innocent bystander, kill a pet, and other collateral damage such as property damage. 

When you're a cop, and you shoot someone, you're also required to render first aid.  At least in combat you're not expected to help the person shot liver to recovery. 

Thank about being a cop -- who is also a target, and what today's violent criminals pose as threats to law enforcement. 

Dallas has had three police officers killed by illegal aliens.  That's something to think about. 

@dingo  Cat broad?  Classy.  Very classy...

@holmantx @everlastingphelps In Texas, you do not have a legal obligation to retreat.  In fact, if the person is on your property and you feel threatened, you can defend yourself however you can - including firearms, knives, swords, pikes, etc. 

My lawyer said that if you shoot someone on your front porch, drag them into the house, and then call police. Then drag the body back outside where they were confronted and fell. 

Just a few days ago, some moron fired a gun into another car with kids in it.  It was road rage; it was also an act where self-defense is permitted. 

As it turns out, the family dog jumped in front of the children, and was shot and killed. 

I would consider killing my dog or harming my children to be a special request to be killed....at least I would act believing it.

@holmantx: "t's a tough job and it doesn't pay much."

It pays more than garbage men and nationally has a lower mortality rate. Yes, it is a tough job but not deserving the extra compensation perks.

And if Phelps is right about marksmanship and training we need to evaluate issuing firearms to unqualified officers.

@holmantx @everlastingphelps  The citizen must show he retreated.

Not in Texas.  http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/SOTWDocs/PE/htm/PE.9.htm

(c) The use of deadly force is not justified under this section unless the actor reasonably believes the deadly force is specifically required by statute or unless it occurs in the lawful conduct of war. If deadly force is so justified, there is no duty to retreat before using it.

I'm 100% fine with the Wilson/Brown shooting, BTW.  Once I saw the forensic evidence that the FPD inexplicably hid from the public, it was obvious that this was self defense.

As for the civil society vs effective cops argument, it's the chicken and the egg.  The cops can't do their job without the cooperation of the public, but at the same time, their effectiveness should be judged by the absence of crime, not by how many arrests or shootings they have.  (These are basic Peelian principles.)  

@noblefurrtexas @holmantx @everlastingphelps

The Castle law is not what I am talking about.

Have you taken a CCL class?

@primi_timpano

Do you want a garbage man between you and the bad guy?  Do garbage collectors have 200 shooting incidents and 67 suspects dead?  

Do you really want to equate the mortality rate between garbage collectors and cops?  Seriously.

Maybe we should look at total number of rounds expended per incident or per dead suspect to get some kind of comparison going with other departments and no doubt additional training - in every aspect of law enforcement couldn't hurt - but the beat officers are the ones who need the better marksmanship, don't you think?

In the Marines, it wasn't imperative that the Remington raiders and the aircraft maintenance personnel be held to the same standard as the infantryman.

@everlastingphelps @holmantx

Without boring everyone to tears can we at least agree that the "standard" is different for the cop since he has the duty to advance?

@holmantx @noblefurrtexas @everlastingphelps No.  But, I helped to pass the bill in Austin. 

I was talking about "stand your ground" and its various incarnations in different states.  What's interesting is that all of the females in my family - three generations worth - have CCLs.  In fact, I was almost shocked when I saw their targets.  Most of them had patterns the size of a juice glass base. 

That may explain why a female Secret Service agent I know is such a good shot that she had awards for marksmanship.

@holmantx: why would one not compare mortality rates in evaluating the dangerousness of a job? While police shootings and confrontations with dangerous lawbreakers are a scary and dangerous part of the job, the vast majority of their time is relatively safe, much safer than garbage collectors, whose entire work day is subject to injury.

I have a great deal of respect for the police but their civil service is not much different from the collector. My objection is using your argument--they put their life on the line--as the basis for favorable treatment, especially with respect to their pension plan. Am injury from a confrontation is no different from an injury from a truck accident. And garbage removal is as essential a service as handing out tickets and solving crimes.

Btw, I agree with you re marksmanship.

@holmantx @everlastingphelps No.

Two reasons -- one, it is self-defense either way, and there is no duty to retreat, and two, the cop does not have a duty to advance.  His only duty is to investigate after the crime is over (Warren v District of Columbia).  He might have a department policy that tells him to advance, but the worst that happens to him for not advancing there is that he gets fired.

@primi_timpano

Then arm and use garbage collectors for policing.

Or pay cops the same and tell them they are no better.  See what kind of impact THAT will have on hiring and morale (ha!).  If I were you I'd give recruiting a wide berth.

And just because the shooting results are lopsided doesn't mean the garbage men can put up the same numbers.

It might just mean that the cops, as marksmen, are that much better than their competition.

And why would you want to level THAT playing field?

If we catch ISIS in the open and ina a column of twos, hit them with a fuel-air bomb.

Cheat.

@everlastingphelps @holmantx

That is why I said "duty" to advance.

Had Wilson not advanced, some other cop would have had to.  I think that is probably how it's looked at.  All part of the 'to protect and serve' credo thingy.  When it's your turn, you got to go.

Similar to those firemen who were ordered into that burning apartment building.  They were not legally required to follow orders however, they would have been branded cowards by their peers and possibly reprimanded by DFD leadership.

Had they lived.

Look.  The only way to get the best out of the cop rank and file who are on the front lines - the forward edge of the battle area so to speak -  is to have great leadership.  Esprit de corps.  A high degree of morale.  And all that is real delicate to attain and maintain.  And it looks like Chief Brown is doing a pretty good job of that.

Of course, most cops can and do lie on the witness stand (ha!).

My brother was an asst DA here in Dallas County, then went defense, and he oft repeated that very line.

@holmantx. Your asymmetrical casualty argument is interesting. I wonder if DPD keeps stats on assaults on officers that fortunately do no result in injuries. Though the same concept applies to collectors, such as accidents and near accidents with harmless results.

Compensation should be what is necessary to "clear the market." I surmise, without knowledge, that police need and demand higher standards, educationally, psychologically, etc. as their job is more complex. Notwithstanding my ignorance of cadet and officer recruiting, it is my observation the pension program is exceptionally generous. I do know that private sector pensions are on a death knell.

@holmantx @everlastingphelps It's all based on a false dilemma anyways, because the blood trails show that Brown had turned and was heading back in for round 2 when Wilson had to kill him.  There was no advance needed, and no direction to retreat to.

As for testilying, I've been beating that drum for years:  http://phelps.donotremove.net/2014/05/the-true-face-of-police/

@everlastingphelps @holmantx

Martin got out of his car.  

He was a watchman.  He did not have a duty to advance.  The moment he went from watchman to pursuer, he was looking for a fight, in the legal sense.