In 2007 We Voted for a Toll Road in a Flood Zone. Remember What Else We Did That Year?

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fashion_2007_horiz.jpg
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The year 2007, when we voted to put a toll road in the flood zone along the Trinity River, was also when flat hair and thick makeup were big. Remember?

Last night's Trinity River toll road debate in Oak Cliff was a barnburner. A crowd of 450-plus broke into repeated emotional applause for City Council member Scott Griggs, who delivered a series of speeches attacking the road that were a cross between Winston Churchill and Tom Cruise -- powerful to the point of being positively electrifying.

Also loudly applauded were urban planner Patrick Kennedy -- since when does an urban planner get foot-stomps and cheers? - and architect Robert Meckfessel (or an architect, for that matter?). Both men delivered clear coherent rebuttals to the very foggy arguments of the pro-toll road side.

See also: Tearing Down I-345

On that side, the pros, former council member Craig Holcomb was shaky-voiced and cranky, sneering at the crowd for preferring, he said, emotion to facts. Former City Manager Mary Suhm was mainly silent. North Central Texas Council of Governments Transportation Director Michael Morris did the best job of the three at keeping his cool, but eventually even he became so rattled that he announced for the first time ever he was reducing the cost of the toll road from $1.8 billion to "less than a billion." The sense of some in the room was that if they had been able to keep the meeting going longer they might have been able to bring Morris' cost estimate down to $9.99.

See also: Former Trinity Toll Road Defenders

For all that it was a really substantive exchange on both sides, and I'm going to get into some detail about it in a column for next week. Meanwhile, yesterday before the meeting I was thinking about something I knew would come up in the debate. And it did. We heard again the assertion that the voters have voted for the road twice and the matter was laid to rest in the road's favor in the 2007 referendum.

And that is true. The last time voters endorsed this project was in 2007, when they voted 53 to 47 percent in favor of building an expressway between flood control levees on the banks of the river in an area subject to flooding on a twice annual basis. That is, voters voted not to build the new expressway outside the floodway where it wouldn't flood.

So, 2007? How has that year held up generally against the test of time? Hard to gauge, because it's sort of caught just on the knife-edge between a time too close for real perspective and a time too far back for clear memory. I got to wondering if there were any benchmarks we might use that would help us put a value on 2007 -- you know, what we were thinking back then and what we know now.

Maybe the biggest story nationally in that regard was the economy, which we had believed up until that point to be booming beyond belief, bullet-proof and headed nowhere but up forever. Sadly it all fell through the floor that year beginning with the collapse of the housing bubble.

So, looking back, instead of everyone being smarter and luckier than ever before, what we really had was a whole lot of people living in houses they couldn't possibly afford and then huge banks taking crazy gambles on fraudulent investment schemes. By the time it was all over, 2007 was one of those years we might remember as a bucket of ice water on our heads. Several buckets.

Funny what you do remember. I remember that was the year we found out some of America's cutest toys -- Thomas the Tank Engine, Big Bird, Elmo, Barbie, Dora the Explorer and the Easy Bake Oven -- were made in Chinese prison factories and were subjecting tots to high levels of lead, not to mention loose batteries and severe burn hazards. And I could have sworn Thomas the Tank Engine was English! From 2007 on, every time our son told us he couldn't understand a word we said, we looked at each other and nodded, both thinking, "Thomas the Tank Engine!"

It was a perplexing year in sport. Barry Bonds knocked down Hank Aaron's record to become baseball's home run king, only to get himself indicted for doping. In fact every time a bit of good news popped up, it seemed to go sour within the hour.

A survey found that after a half-decade of soaring obesity rates, American adult obesity was finally leveling off. Then a few days later some egghead at Yale said it was just because it wasn't possible for Americans to get any fatter. "It's possible that we're just up against a ceiling," said Kelly Brownell of the Yale University Rudd Center for Family Policy and Obesity.

Jeez! I remember reading that and thinking, "Yeah, why don't you jam your Rudd Center up against your own ceiling and leave the rest of us the hell alone?" You know? It was like the knock-down story was the emblem of the times.

Of course here at the Observer we tried to spare our readers that cycle of hope and despair by just doing the despair story in the first place. That was the year we published what I still think was one of the most definitive anthropological studies of Dallas ever done, Andrea Grimes' hauntingly evocative piece, "$30,000 Millionaires: Douchebags in the Mist." I wish I could go back in time and find out which way the douchebags voted on the toll road. Idle curiosity, that's all.

See also: Douchebags in the Mist

It was a funny year in local politics. Then Mayor Tom Leppert was pushing for ethics reform, because of course Leppert, the main champion of keeping the toll road between the levees, wanted people to know they could trust their elected leaders. Meanwhile leaders were nervously awaiting the outcome of a huge FBI raid in which battalions of feds had trundled off stacks of file boxes on two-wheel dollies into vans in the City Hall parking garage.

Now, wait, don't get mixed up: That was not the federal corruption trial in which City Council member Al Lipscomb was convicted of bribery. That was a little earlier, in 2000. But, wait, it also was not the ongoing federal corruption probe of County Commissioner John Wiley Price, a major defender of the toll road. That's still ongoing.

In 2007 we were still waiting for action in the federal corruption probe of city councilman and toll road champion Don Hill, who eventually was given an 18-year-sentence in 2010. It's hard to keep some of it straight, I know. Support for the toll road is about the only unifying theme.

See also: Don Hill Still Doesn't Get It

In 2007, The Dallas Morning News, a ferocious champion of keeping the toll road in the flood zone, endorsed Mike Huckabee for president in one editorial and in another severely castigated Dallas Inland Port developer Richard Allen for thinking local officials were out to get him.

Indications now, of course, are that the most recent federal corruption probe was inspired at least in part by the belief of the FBI that local elected officials were out to get Richard Allen. Oh well, lose some, lose some.

What else did voters do in Dallas that year? They elected Vonciel Jones Hill and Dave Neumann to the City Council -- hurrah, hurrah. And they also elected the guy whom everyone from the New York Times to CNN believed was possible presidential timber after Huckabee was done -- Dallas County District Attorney Craig Watkins, another one for the footnotes.

So that was 2007, the year we voted narrowly to build a highway in the flood zone along the river banks. It's history. And we all respect history. Right? More on that meeting next week. It was truly something. After it was all over, former Observer reporter and former mayoral spokesman, Sam Merten, now a city council candidate, was heard wandering out over the parking lot muttering like Marlon Brando, "The lies! The lies!"



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62 comments
TheCredibleHulk
TheCredibleHulk topcommenter

Oh, yeah - let's don't forget low-rise jeans for the ladies. It was also the era of the "muffin-top".

mremanne
mremanne

I'm so damn old I can remember a satirical TV show called "That Was The Week That Was", a kind of Jon Stewart comedy news show of the sixties. I can still remember this line from the theme song: "That was the week that wassss. It's over, let it goooo. It's tiiiiime for a-noth-er showwwww!" Sooner or later, everyone, the public, the press, and most of all city hall and the people who whisper in the ears of those at city hall, are gonna HAVE to wake up, look around, and MOVE ON! Drop the stinking stupid idea that is the Zombie Fool Road, and find a new stupid idea! It's the twenty first freakin' century, for cryin' out loud!

splckt
splckt

democrat incompetence

ColonelAngus
ColonelAngus

How long until some left-wing nutcase tries to tie this to the Koch brothers?  Oops, I just scrolled down.  Never mind.

dallasdrilling.wordpress.com
dallasdrilling.wordpress.com

Has anyone considered what Eddie Bernice Johnson's role in this debacle? The toll road would be in her district and she does sit on the Transportation and Infrastructure Commission in Congress.

ozonelarryb
ozonelarryb topcommenter

it was GREAT.  handheld wireless mikes were not good, but lots of good repartee.

holmantx
holmantx topcommenter

The Dallas Morning News is framing the meeting abit differently.

It appears No still means Yes

greenvillite
greenvillite

Very entertaining article Jim. So, is Rafael Anchia STILL pretending to be undecided?

HeywoodUBuzzoff
HeywoodUBuzzoff

JimBo - You know Dallas will never be a world class city without American Airlines Center, er, Equestrian Center, er, a submersible toll collection focal point!  Why, if we do not spend millions of projects like the toll road we would have to just plug up pot holes with cash, fix leaking libraries with unsold bond certificates, and just do other silly things with tax money that would benefit too many people who would prove to be ungrateful. This way be can focus the funds directly where it would benefit those would prove most grateful and out down town betters will not have to associate with the unappreciative matters.


Heck with your attitude, Dallas will always be the 'City where JFK was shot' and not 'Dallas is the world class city where ten percent of the population drowned due to soggy toll tags'.  

doubleshot5950
doubleshot5950

Griggs' continues his dismantling of everything positive in Oak Cliff.  When will the people who elected him realize his liberal attitude on gas drilling, traffic issues that concerns all of Dallas, goes to only promotes his support of none development in an area that desperately needs development and reinvestment.  He seeks to fuel a group that will come from all over the metroplex in support no development, most of which do not even live in the area.   When were any of these people ever trying to get through downtown Dallas and not be caught in the terrible traffic mess on the west side of downtown.  George  Bush / SH161 is built on a levy in Farmers Branch.  It can be done and done without flooding impacts.  Drilling should be allowed in the Barnett areas of West Dallas.  He used the same emotional rally cry to get new drilling regulations applied to Dallas.  Safe to say none of his supports were walking away from a monthly royalty check that their Grand Prairie or Irving neighbor receives.  


Don't let a mob of gas masked covered, chain to a bulldozer, earth shoe liberals ruin transportation efforts badly needed in Dallas.  It is too late for Dallas to benefit from the hundreds of millions of dollars paid for safe gas exploration.  Ever wonder why Ft. Worth never has budget issues with their libraries or community centers and pools? 


I hope all who attended the Grigg's pep rally walked to the event to remove freeway congestion on the return to their home in Flower Mound.  Heaven help us if they were dependent on a form of fossil fuel getting them to the meeting.

doubleshot5950
doubleshot5950

Griggs' continues his dismantling of everything positive in Oak Cliff.  When will the people who elected him realize his liberal attitude on gas drilling, traffic issues that concerns all of Dallas, goes to only promotes his support of none development in an area that desperately needs development and reinvestment.  He seeks to fuel a group that will come from all over the metroplex in support no development, most of which do not even live in the area.   When were any of these people ever trying to get through downtown Dallas and not be caught in the terrible traffic mess on the west side of downtown.  George  Bush / SH161 is built on a levy in Farmers Branch.  It can be done and done without flooding impacts.  Drilling should be allowed in the Barnett areas of West Dallas.  He used the same emotional rally cry to get new drilling regulations applied to Dallas.  Safe to say none of his supports were walking away from a monthly royalty check that their Grand Prairie or Irving neighbor receives.  


Don't let a mob of gas masked covered, chain to a bulldozer, earth shoe liberals ruin transportation efforts badly needed in Dallas.  It is too late for Dallas to benefit from the hundreds of millions of dollars paid for safe gas exploration.  Ever wonder why Ft. Worth never has budget issues with their libraries or community centers and pools? 


I hope all who attended the Grigg's pep rally walked to the event to remove freeway congestion on the return to their home in the subburbs.  Heaven help us if they were dependent on a form of fossil fuel getting them to the meeting.

doubleshot5950
doubleshot5950

Griggs' continues his dismantling of everything positive in Oak Cliff.  When will the people who elected him realize his liberal attitude on gas drilling, traffic issues that concerns all of Dallas, goes to only promotes his support of none development in an area that desperately needs development and reinvestment.  He seeks to fuel a group that will come from all over the metroplex in support no development, most of which do not even live in the area.   When were any of these people ever trying to get through downtown Dallas and not be caught in the terrible traffic mess on the west side of downtown.  George  Bush / SH161 is built on a levy in Farmers Branch.  It can be done and done without flooding impacts.  Drilling should be allowed in the Barnett areas of West Dallas.  He used the same emotional rally cry to get new drilling regulations applied to Dallas.  Safe to say none of his supports were walking away from a monthly royalty check that their Grand Prairie or Irving neighbor receives.  


Don't let a mob of gas masked covered, chain to a bulldozer, earth shoe liberals ruin transportation efforts badly needed in Dallas.  It is too late for Dallas to benefit from the hundreds of millions of dollars paid for safe gas exploration.  Ever wonder why Ft. Worth never has budget issues with their libraries or community centers and pools? 


I hope all who attended the Grigg's pep rally walked to the event to remove freeway congestion on the return to their home in Flower Mound.  Heaven help us if they were dependent on a form of fossil fuel getting them to the meeting.

sammerten
sammerten

As much as I agree with what Jim is saying here--that a lot has changed in seven years--the most important reason why the '07 vote shouldn't be factored into the present-day discussion about the toll road is because the case for support was built almost entirely of lies.

  • The NTTA had committed to fund $1 billion of the project. LIE.
  • The Corps had approved the road. LIE.
  • Removing the road from the Trinity River Corridor Project would jeopardize recreational components. LIE.
  • Not building the toll road would jeopardize other road projects. LIE.
  • The city would be reimbursed for the $84 million it dedicated to the road in the 1998 bond program. LIE.
  • Angela Hunt wrote the confusing ballot language. LIE.
  • The road would be limited to four lanes. LIE.
  • Trucks won't be able to use the road. LIE.


And those are just some of the biggies. Now the pro-toll road'ers are piling on more lies.

  • Holcomb said last night the road will mirror what is described in the Balanced Vision Plan. LIE.
  • Morris said last night that the road will cost less than $1 billion. LIE.


This is public deception of the highest order. We shouldn't tolerate it.

James080
James080

Did anyone ask Suhm or Holcomb who's water they are carrying? Or more bluntly, who is paying them to continue foisting this scam on the people of Dallas?


It's laughable to state that the voters approved this project two times. The project, as it is envisioned today, was never approved by public vote. The voters approved a tree lined, low speed parkway with access points to riverside parks all along the route. The promoters need a high capacity, high speed highway to entice the private financing they are going to need to build this toll road. 

I think the voters will vote on this road debacle a third time, indirectly, when the next city council elections are held.

holmantx
holmantx topcommenter

The scope and times have changed, so put it back on the ballot.  But this time . . . 

NO means NO

ivyhall
ivyhall

Sam Merten would be a terrific city council member.

dmay1
dmay1

In 2007 I thought I wanted to be a DISD science teacher.


We can change our minds.

riconnel8
riconnel8

Great article...laughed hard in a couple of places and shook my head and wondered how in too many other places.  I still don't like flat hair and I'm wondering if 2007 wasn't the year that Koch took over NPR...I find that irritating, too.

schermbeck
schermbeck

@mremanne If only we could get Tom Leher to write a song about the toll road, it really would be all over.

ScottsMerkin
ScottsMerkin topcommenter

@doubleshot5950 Dallas cant even put a golf course in the middle of a forest without fucking it up, what makes you think we can build a freeway in river or on the levees without totally fucking it up?  

c_k27
c_k27

I live in Griggs district and we are doing just fine without your toll roads, oil wells or any other development. We have a neighborhood that is already amazing, with classic old homes, reasonably priced apartments and fantastic parks. I see new businesses popping up in our exsisting infrastructure everyday. The toll road is not going to help local business in my community it's going to help people in suburban McMansions and truckers drive pass downtown.

riconnel8
riconnel8

@doubleshot5950  You have no idea what you are talking about when you say that Fort Worth never has problems with funding libraries, community centers or pools. 

Fort Worth is currently closing and filling in 5 of the 7 community pools.  What they say they are going to do is go into a partnership with non-profits and open 5 new splash pools.  After they go into partnership the kids that use to be served by the old pools will probably, more than likely, not be able to afford the splash pools.  As for Community Centers all of them are within 820 and none of the fastest growing areas of the past 15 or so years are being served.  The Far North area of Fort Worth is working hard to even get a physical building for the police which will hopefully also have several other city services.  Hopefully is the big word here.  Far North Fort Worth has a population of about 250 thousand people and they have nothing to show for their taxes and little to show for the gas and oil revenue.

Meanwhile I just read where Fort Worth has invested at least 8 million dollars into the one or two public golf courses.  This was approved in a closed door meeting.  Go figure......

Bremarks
Bremarks

@doubleshot5950 Uh, we got it the first time.  Posting this drivel over and over will not make it valid or truthful.

ScottsMerkin
ScottsMerkin topcommenter

@sammerten Didnt they tell us we had to have it in order to do the horseshoe project?  And now the horseshoe project is under way, how would a river road even connect with the Horseshoe project now?

tvlscat
tvlscat

@James080 It WAS asked, to much applause. No answer. Transparency apparently is not the order of the day.

sammerten
sammerten

@ivyhall I'm slightly biased, but I must say that I couldn't agree more.

holmantx
holmantx topcommenter

@riconnel8

Health-care spending by middle-income Americans rose 24% between 2007 and 2013, driven by an even larger rise in the cost of buying health insurance, according to a Wall Street Journal analysis of detailed consumer-spending data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

riconnel8
riconnel8

@holmantx I was reading about irritating situations with NPR playing in the background.  I haven't a clue why I still tune in..probably because there's nothing else to listen to.  But now that you mention it prescription drug prices are another irritating thing. 
BTW...after I posted I became curious to when Koch did take over NPR and while I couldn't find a concrete date of the beginning of their "donations" I did find conversation dating the changes to a year or so prior to 2007. 
Sorry if I irritated you.  :)

holmantx
holmantx topcommenter

@riconnel8 @holmantx

You did not.

And the Koch Bros are Libertarians (one ran for Prez on the Libertarian ticket) and actually donate hundreds of millions to all manner of Liberal causes.

As evil-doers they are a bit over-rated, if not wholly manufactured.

I never heard of them until Reid and Pelosi started bitching about them, then the press went nuts.

riconnel8
riconnel8

@holmantx BTW....if you could list all those liberal causes or even 5 or so that they donated hundreds of millions to that would be enlightening because the only cause I've seen them donate to is their own.

riconnel8
riconnel8

@holmantx @riconnel8  I do believe one ran for Vice President not President.  Have you ever seen what he stood for at that time which actually hasn't changed over the years?
He advocated the abolition of Social Security, the FBI, the CIA, and public schools.
I'm going to search and see if I can't find his entire manifesto.


holmantx
holmantx topcommenter

@riconnel8 @holmantx

Yep, sounds like a strict Libertarian, or as their detractors used to say - a Republican on drugs.

riconnel8
riconnel8

@holmantx  Here's a link to David Koch's VP manifesto

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/koch-brothers


Some of the highlights include:

“We favor the abolition of Medicare and Medicaid programs.”

“We favor the repeal of the fraudulent, virtually bankrupt, and increasingly oppressive Social Security system. Pending that repeal, participation in Social Security should be made voluntary.”

We condemn compulsory education laws … and we call for the immediate repeal of such laws.”

“We demand the return of America's railroad system to private ownership. We call for the privatization of the public roads and national highway system.”

“We call for the privatization of the inland waterways, and of the distribution system that brings water to industry, agriculture and households.”

holmantx
holmantx topcommenter

@riconnel8 The Wall Street Journal wrote about them some time back and there was a list in there.  I will see if I can find it.

riconnel8
riconnel8

@holmantx I have to subscribe to read that article.  Let me tell you what I know about the Koch's charitable giving...one Koch was diagnosed with cancer after which he started giving to a cancer charity.  The other one lives in NYC and if you want to mingle with old money and the real powerbrokers you have to donate to the arts.  He donates...now.  Both Koch's donate to colleges IF they will teach the Koch lies.  It goes on and on but you can be sure of one thing....Koch's don't give unless they are getting something in return.

roo_ster
roo_ster

@riconnel8 @holmantx 

riconnel8:

C&D Koch are doctrinaire libertarians.  As such they support all the usual libertine views held by most libertarian folk: legalization of drugs, pro-gay pseudo-marriage, etc.  Also, they support open borders and reducing corporate welfare/gov't subsidy to corporations.

They are nothing more than the latest Emmanuel Goldstien erected by the Left.

holmantx
holmantx topcommenter

@riconnel8 @holmantx

Rarely has so much well-intentioned money spurred so much controversy.

One $100 million gift, targeted to help build a new hospital facility, was later the focus of street protests. A $25 million donation funding scholarships for minority students prompted one Ivy League professor to urge the rejection of the "tainted" gift. And a $1 million grant to fund a business-school study provoked 50 prominent Catholic educators to decry the "stark contrast" between the giver's ideology and the church's traditional teachings.

In each case, the philanthropist behind the controversy was a brother named Koch.

Critics say their extensive donations to higher education and health care, among other causes, are tainted by tea party-friendly politics, and rife with hidden strings and agendas. Conservatives call such reactions nonsensical, a product of knee-jerk liberal intolerance.

All of which raises the question: Should nonprofit groups—especially those in a largely liberal city like New York—be concerned with a donor's political leanings?

The question is typically a matter for a receiving institution's board of directors to decide, said Naomi Levine, a veteran fundraiser and executive director of New York University's George H. Heyman, Jr. Center for Philanthropy and Fundraising. "When there's an ethical issue, you have to have a process in place," she said.  Ms. Levine said some schools and charities, but not many, have rules for accepting gifts. These policies—often interpreted by the board's executive committee—usually focus on the legality of how a donor's money is earned and whether the giver has publicly made racist or anti-Semitic remarks.

Despite vocal opposition to Koch donations by outside observers and occasional stakeholders, institutions continue to accept the brothers' money.

Of recently disputed gifts, both the $1 million donation made last year to the Catholic University of America and the $25 million grant made in June to the United Negro College Fund were accepted—which leaders of each institution publicly defended.

Michael Lomax, president and chief executive of the United Negro College Fund, said through his spokesman that criticism for accepting the Koch gift was a small price to pay to help children realize their dreams of a college education.

In their respective hometowns—Charles lives in Wichita, Kan., and David is a longtime New Yorker—the brothers are known for their largess. The Koch name dots many cultural and civic institutions in Wichita, home of Koch Industries Inc., a privately held global conglomerate with businesses ranging from fuels and fertilizer to cattle and electronics parts. The Charles Koch Foundation, based in Wichita, gives widely to U.S. colleges.

And while the brothers are often lumped together in the public consciousness, their philanthropy is substantially different. For his part, David is known for multimillion-dollar gifts to his alma mater, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and to many of New York's biggest cultural gems and medical institutions, including the Metropolitan Museum of Art, American Ballet Theatre and Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center.

Many organizations that have received such hefty donations from David Koch declined to respond to The Wall Street Journal about whether their governing boards have gift-acceptance policies. A spokeswoman for the American Museum of Natural History said the organization had no such policy.

Mr. Koch serves on most of the boards of nonprofits he donates to. As with any volunteer governing body, members are generally expected to give an annual gift.

Still, David Koch's $100 million gift last year to New York-Presbyterian Hospital to help build an outpatient center was a featured grievance in at least two subsequent union protests. Signs and banners at a March rally read, "Quality Care, Not Koch Care."

Mr. Koch serves on the hospital's executive, real-estate and major-facilities committees.

Sometimes just the prospect of a Koch gift can spark controversy.

In June, Mitchell Langbert, an associate professor of business at Brooklyn College, went public with grievances he had with school administrators, who he said squandered a chance to obtain millions of dollars from the Charles Koch Foundation.

Mr. Langbert said that, in his opinion, the school ultimately withheld its institutional blessing because administrators were "afraid of a little conflict" that pursuing or receiving such Koch-labeled money might engender.

riconnel8
riconnel8

@roo_ster Go visit the link I posted.  If you agree that the United States should become the Koch dream you and I have nothing to talk about.

riconnel8
riconnel8

@holmantx See...just like I told you....hospitals after he had cancer...the arts and schools.  Just exactly what I said.  Lol....if you don't have their number by now you never will and I'm too old to waste my breath.

riconnel8
riconnel8

@holmantx  Holy mackerel you were able to post all of that and my Koch manifesto in its entirety was put on pending?  Hmmmmmm
Now go look at the link I just posted showing the entire Koch wish list.

RTGolden1
RTGolden1 topcommenter

@riconnel8 @roo_ster The United States is supposed to have the potential to be the fulfillment of individual dreams.  Are you suggesting that the only 'American' dream is the one you yourself hold on to?

RTGolden1
RTGolden1 topcommenter

@riconnel8 @holmantx If I read you right, you're saying we should despise and shun John Walsh, since he didn't begin any of his philanthropic work until after his son was murdered.  Before that he was one of the wealthy, building and managing high-end FL hotels.

A lot of people awaken to philanthropy due to some personal tragedy or misfortune.  Does this lessen the impact of their charitable works?


If you let your politics govern your soul, you're in for a dark, dismal existence.  Better to let your soul govern your politics.

riconnel8
riconnel8

@RTGolden1 And are you saying that the Koch dream is the right one or that there are to be 316 million versions of the U.S. floating around or are you just spouting non-sense?
And btw....how's that "American dream" working out for the middle class and the poor?
I'm going with non-sense....

riconnel8
riconnel8

@RTGolden1  There is so much I could say about what you posted and had you posted it to me 2 or 3 years ago I would rebut every word.  Over the past few years though I have found I'm not going to change anyone's mind regardless of how many facts I drag out.  It's futile and irritating to me to try to get the willingly blind to see.  It's too funny for me to see in the Koch manifesto how they don't want to see anything government owned (owned by the people) but want to see everything owned privately (b(u)y the Kochs and the other 400 or so billionaires in the U.S.  Hell, they even sell us out to foreigners.
So please consider how I see "your humble opinion" as not so humble but rather pompous and uninformed.  You want privately owned (toll) roads running across the U.S.?  You want water owned privately?  You don't want a mandatory law that says children have to go to school?  You need to read about Chile and their once Libertarian leader....Pinochet.  Don't read just the article I'm posting...read everything.  Especially the stuff written back before the internet was scrubbed.
http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/22374-the-failed-libertarian-experiment-in-chile


RTGolden1
RTGolden1 topcommenter

@riconnel8 @RTGolden1 Since I live on the edge of middle class and poor, I can tell you it's not working out horribly.  Bootstraps and all that nonsense you probably discount as vestiges of a bygone era.


And what I'm saying is it is wholly arrogant for you to presume to determine what the American Dream is.


And this: "...you and I have nothing to talk about....." is about the most un-American thing one could say, in my humble opinion.  American society is about acceptance and compromise, which you cannot reach without conversation.


Nice to see  you go from one willing to converse to one who refuses to acknowledge any point of view other than their own.  You'll fit in well here. Have a nice day.

RTGolden1
RTGolden1 topcommenter

@riconnel8 @RTGolden1 You're reading words into my writing that aren't there.  I haven't mentioned the Kochs at all.  Nothing in my writing would lead one to believe that have any of the views you attribute to me here.

nice false flag attack though.  Instead of addressing my 'humble opinion', you change it to something you can attack.  My opinion was that holding oneself above conversation, dialogue and compromise is un-American.

Everything you wrote sprang from your own mind, not mine.  That is something to think about.  In fact, in your whole response, you discounted everything I asked, proving my point which was: "... to one who refuses to acknowledge any point of view other than their own."

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