This segment completely rocked my world. I am leaving this comment almost three weeks after the original airing of the show, and I simply cannot get it out of my mind. It touched a nerve on several different levels, and has led me into an exploration of what on earth could possibly be going on in my psyche. Brooke and Jad are two of the radio hosts that I most respect these days, so the fact that they were working together on this piece was the initial draw. But upon hearing their ideas, so eloquently stated, yet not overly academic as to be easily ignored, stirred something within me that must have been festering for quite some time now. I am not quite there yet (are we ever?) but this conversation has finally given me a framework upon which I can begin to place the extreme confusion, frustration and sometimes downright angst of life that I seem to experience more and more frequently these days, and gather some sense of meaning as to my own existence. It is truly as if I had been released from a state of depression and apathy that I, like Jad, honestly did not even know I was in.
And the relief comes not from having found 'the answer' but from simply being guided back to the path that will allow me to continue to grow as a human being, simply by working with the right questions. These questions will of course lead to more questions, and this where I find true happiness in my life, in the challenge of the questions of each day, not as pop culture has been telling me, by staring into the abyss while standing morosely in the dust of this planet.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Response to "In The Dust Of This Planet” on Radiolab and "Staring Into The Abyss” from On the Media.

This episode overlooked several key topics that would have helped to explain the issue of our contemporary nihilism.

1. We live in an epoch roughly delineated by the period since Descartes. As in, it's difficult for people after Descartes to understand what life was like before him. It's the point David Foster Wallace tries to explain in the opening of his Kenyon College commencement speech "This is Water” [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5THXa_H_N8]. The under pinnings of our experience of the world is "Like water to the fish”; difficult for the poor fish to notice.
2. Nihilism isn't a “believe". Our contemporary nihilism is characterized by the lack of certainty or an unrelenting flow of choices built into the foundation of our modern world epoch. We are burdened by choice with no clear basis on which to choose. Should you choose what feels good? Should you run from danger? Should you pursue money? Which is better a short exciting life or a long boring life? On what basis should you make these choices? The period that the poet Homer wrote about didn’t have this problem.
3. What life can one hold up as an example of a life worth living? Or what is life at its best in our culture? This is the key question we raise when we talk about nihilism. The show mentions an unnamed fashion model, Detective Rust Cohle created by Nic Pizzolatto as well as JayZ and Beyonce. Then doesn’t follow up with any depth any of these examples. What does Pizzolatto say about nihilism? Do our artist and poets have a role it?

The novel “Moby Dick” by Herman Melville explains our contemporary nihilism then offers a way for the culture to escape it.

If hereafter any highly cultured, poetical nation shall lure back to their birthright, the merry May-day gods of old; and livingly enthrone them again in the now egotistical sky; on the now unhaunted hill; then be sure, exalted to Jove's high seat, the great Sperm Whale shall lord it.

— Herman Melville, from Moby Dick
Please see: All Things Shining by Hubert Dreyfus and Sean Dorrance Kelly [http://goo.gl/6UlTyD]

In the immortal words of Tom Lehrer -who attributed it to a nameless friend- "life is like a sewer, what you get out of it depends on what you put into it."

or better still, the words of Bugs Bunny.

"Don't take life too seriously, you'll never get out of it alive." We don't know what happened before we were born or after we die, so guess what's left to be important or at least observed while it is happening?

Gotta keep this short, but I just wanted to drop a line and say great work to all of the On The Media crew. I love this program and especially enjoyed this episode. Keep up the good work!

Just finished listening to Staring Into the Abyss and In The Dust of This Planet from Jad Abumrad back to back. You guys are so, so, so frickin' good. It makes me proud to be a human even if everything IS meaningless and empty.

What if instead of God or Philosophy per se we were to sincerely and totally place our highest values on humane interpersonal anti-egoic being with one another? We long for a new secular theology that leaves the myths behind but saves the wonder and mystery at the living experience of being a human being. The world desires meaning, but meaning is ultimately empty. Yet as Robert Frost expressed a century ago in the face of determinism, there is yet beauty and love.

We can learn to practice radical self-observation, transcend egotism, and embrace humanitarianism. That can be our new ethic and aesthetic. This I believe. The world is looking for a will to live again. I can't help but wonder whether it is possible for a common ethos to arise and become somewhat stable out of the chaos of modern high-speed ubiquitous information flow.

While we wait to find out (or die), I will take comfort in the beauty that you guys create on your two respective radio programs. Thank you.

Just listened to the best contemporary dialogue on the nature of meaningful being I have heard in 50 years. And all the while driving I 88 between two of my favorite universities, Albany and Binghamton. Were Albert Camus my passenger, he would join me in cheering
Viola! Brook and company Viola!

Best, Joe Flynn, SUNY Distinguished Service, Professor Emeritus

Seriously, what have we achieved in all this marvelous civilization? As Nicki says, look at where all the most brilliant minds have taken us - to the brink of extinction...yes, look at where education has taken us. As the world has changed, education has not. Education has been built upon layers and layers of previous 'knowledge' in a subject, and the subjects have remained the same.
But this doesn't add up because the world has changed. WE HAVE CHANGED THE WORLD. And not in a good way. In our fear of death, we have created a vast circus of distraction. Human workings, far removed from REALITY. We have over-populated earth, we have not respected other living beings, we have not respected the earth itself, water, land, and air are in jeopardy. We continue to turn away from the status quo, refusing to acknowledge that it is no longer working...
Is it simply a matter of refusing to be wrong ? Is the problem so big we don't feel we are adequate to fix it? Or are we simply unable to let go of our so-called intellect - our endlessly fascinating account of ourselves? The endless dialogue that can't be silenced? If we are holding up a mirror to the media, look no further than facebook, twitter and all the other worthless 'fun' bullshit available to distract us from our real life responsibilities.

I commented previously that I thought the show was brilliant, and that Brooke managed to so ably cover so much intellectual history in so short an amount of time while being so suggestive was really admirable and rare to hear in any form of media these days.

To many people make comments to respond to, but I as a 40-year devotee of Nietzsche, perhaps the most influential thinker of the 19th century and whose influence permeates art and thought to date, I thought that there was a misrepresentation of his views by JC Harris.

Nietzsche did not only spend most of his life railing against the life-negating aspect of the Judeo-Christian and other monotheistic religions, where the promise of the after-life was in direct contradiction with the ancient pagan Greek affirmation, as he saw it, of life as represented in Greek tragedy. Life, he wrote in his brilliant book on the "Birth of Tragedy" in his very early 20s, was for him and the Greeks only justified as an aesthetic phenomenon, and humanity should affirm the here and now of amoral nature rather than being slaves to some dangling fruit held above us by the monotheistic power-trippers or other authoritarians.

In addition, his notion of the "Will to Power," was about self-overcoming and involved what is now termed by the many literal-minded linguists who shamelessly stole his poetic ideas and made them their own as "Deconstruction." Deconstruction became and this is an academic industry, full of the most literal-minded people I have ever listened, since they did not realize it was a game on the left-bank in France. If you read Nietzsche's massive works, one of his primary targets for "deconstruction" was Darwin, as he felt that the "herd" predominated, while the exceptions were castigated even as the great geniuses throughout history actually developed humanity -- not progressively (as he deconstructed the notion of progress as well, which the literal-minded will never understand) but in terms of affirming life.

As such, Nietzsche is often portrayed as a nihilist, but very self-consciously saw himself in the context of the mythological life/rebirth cycle as symbolized so well by the primordial pagan cult of Dionysus, and therefore felt that there were all-too-few actually affirming life.

He is the opposite of all cultural aspects Jewish or Christian, even as he castigated Wagner for being anti-Semitic and made numerous such statements in his writings which the Nazis conveniently ignored. But when you write poetically, you are always misinterpreted by the literal-minded.

The only thing I would have liked to see the brilliant show explore was the notion that nihilism can be life-affirming if it is seen as part of the process of rebirth, of seeing the world again, of re-inventing yourself and your culture. The most intelligent punks-rockers are disappointed idealists seeking an ideal and angry because they feel that society accepts mediocrity.

Everything in history works in cycles.

Two quick thoughts on a very interesting show.

1. I'm no Nietzsche devotee, but I think you mis-portrayed his work a bit. Ironically, I found his writings kinda 'Jewish'. His stuff definitely is anti-God, but it doesn't say that life is pointless. In fact, life has a definite point... we're all like ants... the purpose of our lives it to further the colony over time. We live for the next generation. How Jewish is -that-? :D It's the furthest thing from the current idea of 'nihilism'. The modern obsession with personal happiness is what makes people feel like life is 'pointless'.

2. The dada reference was great. As a professional musician I feel like the whole world now is 'dada'. Most popular music, from hip hop to dance is now constructed as collage. And I think that is telling. Dada was originally a joke and a commentary. But technology (how music is now recorded and mixed) has made it "just the way things are done." What does that say about creativity when an ironic mode of expression becomes "just the way things are done."

I agree with Patricia above -- I thought it was rather callous and narrow to say that "we" in this country don't experience the terrible things happening in the world directly. But our country is, statistically speaking, full of people who do experience terrible things. The exception is to be relatively economically safe and comfortable.

I'd never considered how Epicureanism might be viewed as a form of nihilism, ie. seeking a pleasant life and turning your back on all the outsized problems of the world like climate erosion or starvation in Africa. To try to mitigate these problems only adds to our stress.

The point of the philosophy is to create an environment of friends and family members that is the direct opposite of nihilism. Epicureanism believes that we should focus on those forces, minor though they may be, which we can control. It does not preach dropping out and pursuing sensual pleasures which are secondary to the Epicurean. Meaning--sorting out the confusion of the times--is the highest pleasure because it does lead to a western version of tranquility. And it is achieved with friends.

Brilliant segment. My mother, professor for 40 years covering essentially the "history of ideas," could not wait for me to hear the piece.

To actually hear conceptual thought discussion on an American public forum about such an important subject, with existential, political, social, psychological implications, and more is so very, very rare where so much media discourse is so very predictable (like Fox, CNN, and MSNBC) and laced with pop culture references at every single turn.

As one who spent years reading all of the texts discussed, listening to the referenced music, seeing less of the pop films used as a teaser I believe, the connections made were right on and the final quote was the clicher (without giving it away to those who have not listened).

Bravo to Brooke Gladstone for the narrative and those with whom she spoke!

I will be tuning in religiously in my hunger for such intelligent discussions, where the conclusion is unpredictable!

Great show on Nihilism.

And on the day of the largest global warming demonstrations, I am astounded at your intellectual hubris that you ignore the darkest most realistic possibility of human extinction.

Even the most optimistic climate scientist will note that human extinction is possible. The most exciting arguments are about how soon. From the publicly accessible papers and interviews with climate scientists, oceanographers one can easily conclude that humans life on earth is in great and growing danger. Even with full attention, we may only be able to extend the window of human existence, we cannot sustain a world in which living humans will be able to survive. A great story idea for you might be to examine climate models and future scenarios.

And unlike rocket science, genetics or cryptography, the basics of climate science is open and accessible to anyone... we can all parse the data and read the studies. And it is so easy to interview scientists, even philosophers devoted to this subject.

It seems like you have been intentionally avoiding this story, the biggest and most important story of all.

Is your show on Nihilism some sort of grand plan to gradually start covering the story? Or is this deliberate misdirection and avoidance of the story? A tossed in mention of global warming at the end of your piece is a great disservice.

Both FAIR and MediaMatters offer information on how media has avoided this subject. You might want to cover that aspect too.

Brooke Gladstone made a comment near the end of this piece (as I understood it) that many do not personally experience the terrible things that are happening around the world, including in this country, but, in fact, experience them through only the media. I must disagree. Children who are going hungry, young people being imprisoned for minor matters and shot at with impunity by those in authority and by their peers (while those who commit truly great crimes against humanity go unpunished), the unemployed, senior citizens who about this time are running into the "doughnut hole," living in a country where war is now its reason for being - and on and on - are in fact, experiencing the terrible things that are happening. Those who do experience the terrible and the unspeakable - and they are legion - have reason to be nihilistic. Since I'm writing, thumbs up for for Anthony McCarthy's post above.

The jazz music interlude just before this piece was gorgeous. I was reading a book and only halfway listening to when the "fears on the border" segment ended and it completely swept me up. What was that?

Great show, I work with teenagers and see the nihilistic side form time to time but I also see great hope and yearning. I would like to see an addendum to the Ecclesiastes quote.The addendum I would add is that even those of deep faith have nihilistic moments, even men like Solomon. He closes his writings this way:

Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the duty of all mankind.
For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil.

After many moments of nihilism, it seems, to me, Solomon succumbed to realism.

Thanks again for the great show.

The nihilism piece was riveting.
Hanging question: what is the difference between apathy and the ambient nihilism - the "bleh" - Jad spoke of?

Do more like this!

I've become a global warming nihilist.

Turned off all of my news feeds from GW/Climate change sources. I no longer waste time debating dittoheads and teabaggers; it's a lost cause.

The ignorant have won the battle against those who embrace reality; Earth will win the war against the ignorant.

Nihilism, or 'looking into the void,' is no excuse for abandoning responsibility to our world - human and non-human - especially in light of trends that threaten survival of future generations of life and its profoundly beautiful diversity.

In fact, the more dire the perceived threats, the greater our moral resolve should be to take corrective action, not getting all hedonistic or, conversely, sanctimonious while waiting for the 'inevitable' apocalypse. Anything less than meeting the obligations of our social contract is narcissistic, self-defeating, and recklessly adolescent.

Provocative and timely piece, but Turgenev's great Nihilisit work is "Fathers and Sons", not "Fathers and Children", as incorrectly stated.

Would the fascination of youth with Nihilism be connected to the loss in faith in the slogan "Hope and Change"? I kept waiting for Nihilism to relate to more recent political events or polls. It never delivered.

CAPS FOR BAD EYES. NIHILISM IS REALISM NOW. THE EFFECTS OF CLIMATE CHANGE ARE ALREADY WITH US. THE EARTH IS DRYING OUT, HAVING FLOODS, LEADING TO MASS MIGRATIONS. BANGLADESHIS USED TO LIVE ON STILTED HOUSES. NOW ON BOATS, BUT WHEN THE HIMALAYAN GLACIERS HAVE ALL MELTED THERE'LL BE NO WATER FOR THE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE ON THE SUBCONTINENT. SCIENTISTS SAY THE REAL EFFECTS OF CLIMATE CHANGE WILL HIT IN 25 YEARS. THE REAL HORROR IS PLASTIC KILLING THE OCEAN. WHEN THE OCEAN DIES, WE DIE. AS A WONDERFUL, BUT TOXIC SPECIES, WE DESERVE IT. ANIMALS, THE FEW LEFT THAT WE EAT OR WEAR, DON'T. NOR DO PLANTS. I WAS A BEAT BEFORE I BECAME A HIPPY. THIS IS DIFFERENT. THIS IS REAL. ADOLESCENTS ARE ALWAYS PESSIMISTS, BECAUSE THEY'RE OPTIMISTIC, AND WILL CHANGE THE WORLD. WE THINK: WE'RE SAPIENS. BUT WE'RE INCAPABLE OF ACTING RATIONALLY. THIS IS DIFFERENT.

A decent piece, but this type of segment is the "phoning it in" of the public radio world. I understand the desire to cross promote, but the "here's an interview with the guy who offices down the hall from me, also here's his relative whose book we'll promote" is beyond lazy, and this piece doesn't really fit On the Media's tone. This laziness is why I've abandoned This American Life and why I feel RadioLab's quality as of late swings wildly from brilliant to insufferable.

I tried to save the world once. Looking around, I think we see how well THAT turned out. Bottom line: I tend to look at idealists of any stripe as nightmare salesman. Don't believe it? Ask yourself why western civilization seems to self-immolate every hundred or so years, and who or what was at the head of the hell parade every time?
p.s.

E.B. love yer stuff dude

This has been a long time coming.

Brooke - will you marry me?

A minor nit to pick. Notwithstanding the fact that I liked the piece as a whole, I think Brooke's a little off on the origin of Dada as being post-war. Actually Dada started DURING WWI in Zurich (1916-ish). While Tzara was involved in its creation, others were as well, most notably Hugo Ball. There are many commentators who see its creation as inextricably linked to being in a neutral city in a neutral country while surrounded by the madness of war on all sides.

A minor nit to pick. Notwithstanding the fact that I liked the piece as a whole, I think Brooke's a little off on the origin of Dada as being post-war. Actually Dada started DURING WWI in Zurich (1916-ish). While Tzara was involved in its creation, others were as well, most notably Hugo Ball. There are many commentators who see its creation as inextricably linked to being in a neutral city in a neutral country while surrounded by the madness of war on all sides.

As I was listening to this piece, I was reminded of my favorite quote from "Waiting for Godot":
"They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more."

After a morning FULL of malfunctioning discharges in my head in the form of temporal lobe/petite mal seizures (at least 15), this segment on the Abyss, specifically Nihilism, was very muh appreciated. I needed some looking at the unlit side of existene without being depressing. Thank-you for that. It is greatly appreciated.

Yours,
jimmy scoville

Ahh nihilism - the false alternative to morality commanded from a supernatural entity, which at its root still accepts the premise of its opponents - that only such morality as is handed down by a deity can be valid. Luckily there is a third alternative, which not only shows why true morality cannot be commanded, let alone from a sky god, but also that morality can be objectively understood from the nature of Man. It was Ayn Rand who refuted the is/ought dichotomy by simply pointing out a fact of nature - that man is a living being, and that living beings have certain requirements in order to exist. If you accept the choice to live as a human being, morality would rightly show you how to live and flourish.

I found this segment of the program in continuity with earlier segments exploring US fear and trembling in the midst of contemporary geopolitical challenges,consummately researched, beautifully presented, alternately provocative and inspiring, and exemplary of all that keeps me listening to NPR. In short, I was provided with a short course in nihilism and its various understandings in less than 20 minutes time, but I will continue to to reflect on the issues raised for much longer, and recommend that my divinity school students listen to the podcast. I congratulate Brooke Gladstone, her guests, and her colleagues for a program that could provide a platform for a book that would develop the issues in still more depth. Many, many, thanks!

Thoroughly enjoyed this piece and its sister piece on RadioLab.

It's interesting that every age (and I assume this is the case) feels that it is special, and past ages couldn't possibly understand what we're going through. Then again, having only lived in this age, how can we tell?

And that's why we have artists and writers...

Any chance of putting together a bibliography of all the fantastic references in the story?

Why would Nietzsche, in this peice, have an English accent?

What a fun segment! I want a statue of this segment created so it can win awards, then I want the statue destroyed and the pieces given away as awards ! I was waiting for Godot, but he never came. Thank you Brooke Gladstone ! Spray bactine on your scrape, then get a bandaid.

There is an alternative to the dichotomy this otherwise good piece presents. In the point when one of the men talking brings up The Decameron and the plague literature he says that the alternatives presented are 1. to seal yourself up (in pleasant surroundings) to wait out the plague or, 2. to go to church and pray. He left out the alternative of putting yourself at risk to take care of those who are sick and dying, putting yourself at risk of dying while, at the same time, embodying the highest and greatest form of human life, someone who risks everything to take care of other people, the same thing that the medical missionaries and Doctors Without Borders are doing today in West Africa and elsewhere. Leaving that out isn't surprising in a discussion among members of today's thinking class because there is nothing more unfashionable in this or in any other age with members of any leisure class, the kind who generally write books and work in the media.

Don't get me wrong, it's great to have somewhere on the radio where one still occasionally hears serious things being discussed. I would, though, encourage Brooke Gladstone to consider that in all of those instances of nihilism she discussed, it was members of upper economic classes finding that their expectations their values led to a dead end in a spiritual wasteland. Even Ecclesiastes, which shows that even members of the clergy who take that route end up spiritually empty, cynical and desolate.

Nihilism is both a luxury of the rich, or at least those who don't have to struggle for a living for themselves and those they come closest to loving and the product of their affluence. Its opposite can be found in James Cone, the liberation theologians - black, Latino and others. It can be found in the, frankly, religious struggle for justice, something which nihilists, at bottom, deny exists.

thanks for this, reposted it @
http://syntheticzero.net/2014/09/19/staring-into-the-abyss/