How to Talk to Your Guy Friends About Not Threatening to Rape and Murder Women on the Internet


Dudes, can I turn my chair around and get real with you for a minute? We need to talk about the fact that scores of you and your buddies are jumping on the Internet and threatening to rape, maim, and murder women.

I’m sorry, I hope I’m not interrupting your morning manscaping, or evening perusal of The Paris Review, or midnight Call of Warcraft: The Ocarina Of Nintendogs binge, or whatever. I know this is kind of a bummer topic, but so is being told to “kill yourself, you ignorant f*ggot,” so.

For a long time, even before “#GamerGate” was a twinkle in a sad white dude’s eye, feminist cultural critics and some—mostly not-cis-dude—gamers and developers have been subjected to violent harassment from individuals who seem to be mildly troubled by their predilections for talking, typing, or otherwise expressing themselves in public, as opposed to shutting up and making sandwiches. Most recently, they’ve been under attack, online and off, for observing that many mainstream video games and related marketing materials are exclusively tailored to the imagined gaze of titty-obsessed heterosexual teenage boys. That’s fine and all, but it’s kind of, you know, limiting, and wouldn’t it be nice to have more diversity in video games?

Many of these gamers and critics, along with their supporters, have been “doxxed,” which is when some anonymous asshole puts stuff like your home address and workplace location on the Internet, because they are mad and want to make sure that the whole world knows where you live and work. Thanks to actions like these, some of these folks have had to abandon their homes and jobs out of fear for their own, and their loved ones’, safety. Even more have been routinely, overwhelmingly harassed, day in and day out, for the apparent crime of existing on the Internet as anything other than a cisgender white dude.

All of this talk of leaving women’s “mutilated corpses on the front page of Jezebel,” is, I’m sure, out of concern for journalistic ethics, and definitely not because of a widespread, deeply ingrained culture of toxic masculinity.

But look: On the teeeeeeeeny-tiiiiiiiiiny chance that GamerGaters are indeed a horde of gender-policing, misogynistic trolls who believe they can operate with impunity in a society wherein “boys will be boys,” and “women will live in abject goddamned fear every moment of their fucking lives,” it’s time for all the cool, good dudes out there to have a talk with their bros about how saying they’ll rape and murder people isn’t OK.

Maybe you think that goes without saying—that everybody knows threatening to aggressively sodomize a total stranger is not the coolest thing on Earth to do. But hey: It doesn’t go without saying for everybody, because literal thousands of somebodies are currently out there on the Internet right this minute terrorizing people with the promise of sexual violence of all kinds.

Those somebodies have brothers and dads and uncles and nephews and bosses and coworkers and yoga teachers and friends and fellow fantasy-footballers and dudes they always say hi to at the bodega and professors and grandfathers and mechanics and favorite bartenders and ARE ANY SINGLE ONE OF YOU TALKING TO YOUR BROS ABOUT HOW IT’S FUCKED UP IN THE EXTREME TO THREATEN TO RAPE PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET?

When’s the last time you heard a dude making a rape joke or saw your buddy harassing a woman on the street, and you actually fucking said something to him about how gross that is? When’s the last time you shared a Facebook post about enthusiastic consent? When’s the last time you tweeted or Tumbled an infographic about the prevalence of domestic violence?

Have you ever actually said out loud, in front of a bunch of dudes, that you don’t think abuse is a punchline, or that you wouldn’t stay friends with a guy who assaulted someone, or that you’d never put up with a dude who sent a woman anonymous emails full of bloody fetus pictures telling her to abort herself? (Shout-out to that guy! Don’t worry, bro, I got your message!)

Like, 180 people follow this dude on Twitter, for example. Yet nobody’s up in his mentions telling him that he might wanna rethink his little rape, uh, joke. How many folks at any one of these Halloween parties held their tongues when white men in blackface rolled up in Ray Rice costumes dragging blow-up dolls around? Hell, nobody had a minute to take this clown aside and have a quiet conversation about how telling Janay Rice in a tweet tagged with her handle to “shut up bitch you married the muthafucka now THATS funny” is not an OK thing to do?

Meanwhile, social researcher Jennifer Allaway does a survey about video games and is told by a self-described “killer of women” that she will endure half a decade of anal rape. And she is by no means the only one.

Bros, dudes, guys, and buddies of the privileged cisgender heterosexual persuasion, this is not my problem. This is not women’s or queer folks’ or trans people’s problem.

This is your problem. You fix it. If you really think that you are a good guy, and that you are not the kind of person who would threaten to rape and murder and silence some b1tch3z for the LULZ, the onus is on you to step up and make it happen.

I’m not gonna go all “wives, mothers, daughters, sisters” on your ass. Don’t do this shit for your mom. Don’t do it for your wife. Do it because you’re not a human scab. Do it because you want people to be better, and because you intend to hold humanity accountable for producing disgusting, petulant man-trolls who think they’re entitled to other people’s time and attention. Do it because you’re gonna stop the cycle of disgusting, petulant man-trolls right flipping now, in your own flipping life.

I’m already out here doing my part to make this world a safer, healthier place. I talk about how to end rape, domestic violence, street harassment, and abortion stigma literally all damned day every day. I do my feminism at the bar. I do my feminism at the coffee shop. Sometimes I make feminism funny, and sometimes I make it serious. Hell, I practice talking to my cats about feminism. I wasn’t born this way. It’s taken me years—and I’m still working on it—to try and overcome internalized misogyny and externalized racism and ableism. But I’ve continued to attempt it nonetheless, because my friends and my coworkers and my peers and my neighbors have actively and consistently had ongoing, public conversations that made it clear I could get my mind right or get the hell out of their lives.

Now it’s your turn. I don’t know what you bros do in your little man-caves besides talk about razors and guns and farts (did I get that right?), but whatever it is, not enough of it consists of policing each other and making it clear that in your circle, or your fraternity, or your workplace, or your comic book shop, or your household, it is unacceptable to be a creepy fucking misogynist.

I cannot and will not fix this nasty problem of yours for you. This is your work and you need to start on it yesterday. It’s as easy as talking—frequently and loudly—about how you don’t think jokes, threats, and offhand comments about rape, violence, and abuse are cool. And moreover, that any friend or family member of yours better fucking get in step with you on it.

This might feel weird at first, especially if you’re not used to this kind of talk. That’s OK. It’s not going to be an overnight fix, and some assholes are gonna fly under your radar anyway. Fear not. In fact, in case you need a head start, I’ve written up some suggested scripts for talking to your buddies:

  • “I don’t know, I’m more of a merlot guy. Speaking of, I think it’s pretty fucking shitty to threaten to rape and murder people on the Internet.”
  • “You shouldn’t yell out your car window at women on the street and call them horrible slurs and grab at at their clothes and bodies to try and get a reaction out of them. I wish Rick would leave his dog at home.”
  • “Every time you post about ‘raping’ a quiz or test, I lose heaps of respect for you, and it’s honestly getting to the point where I’m not sure we should be friends anymore. Watch out, there’s a pothole.”
  • “Thanks a lot, Doc, I can’t wait to take this sweet-ass vasectomy for a spin. By the way, young women who use social media are especially likely to have to deal with sexual harassment and stalking.”
  • “Ted, are you as good at respecting other people’s personal space as you are at baking? This angel food cake is phenomenal.”
  • “Everyone please proceed to the closest exit, I’m sure this is just a drill. While I’ve got you all here, I’d like to point out that prison rape jokes are a good way to get unfriended by me.”
  • Woof, I thought that last pigeon pose was never going to end! I’m really looking forward to going home and having the same expectations for my sons as I do for my daughters.”
  • “Man oh man, Bumgarner is on fire! Hey by the way, have y’all ever promised to kill someone on Twitter? I haven’t, because that would make me a garbage person.”
  • “I wanted to let you know that I’ll be actively not driving people out of their own homes by threatening to photograph their mutilated bodies for the foreseeable future, and also I can’t come to pasta night.”
  • “I’m thinking of planting some succulents out back. Everybody’s bodies are their own and no one owes me or my boner anything at all.”

Try a few of them in the mirror. Feel free to come up with some of your own. However you do it, wherever and whenever you do it, just do it. Good dudes of the world, please start having these conversations—whether you’re at your kids’ soccer games, or the office holiday party, or posting on Facebook from the Jiffy Lube.

People’s lives and livelihoods depend on it.

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  • Shan

    Fantastic examples, all!

    But I do feel compelled to point out that this sentence is the best thing I’ve read in a while.

    “I can’t wait to take this sweet-ass vasectomy for a spin.”

    • Stephanie Grasmick Sager

      It’s also a sentence where correct hyphenation is absolutely *critical*

      • nm

        hahah ass vasectomy

    • I-C-E-D

      100 ejaculations later, because a vasectomy doesn’t mean you’re immediately infertile ;)

      • fiona64

        Yep. I used to work in a hospital setting. Suffice it to say that men were told to have a lot of paper cups available for samples. :-/

        • reticle

          Yeah because after having THAT BIT of you cut open, I’m sure the very next thing you want to do is burp the worm 100 times..

          • fiona64

            Post-vasectomy, men have to provide samples to demonstrate that they really are sterile before abandoning other forms of contraception. You don’t have to take my word for it: http://www.healthline.com/health/semen-analysis#Overview1

          • reticle

            I’ve not had a VS but my brother did; I got to hear all about it. I know.
            .
            It doesn’t sound like any fun.

          • fiona64

            Nope. (Of course, recovering from a tubal ligation wasn’t exactly a barrel of monkeys … been there, done that)

          • reticle

            Eeek. Lady parts are, um, further in than dude parts; it’s more of a deal to work on them. My neighbor lady got her tubes tied and was down for a couple days.

          • fiona64

            I was laid up in bed for three full days after the surgery and it took a couple of *months* to regain full abdominal strength. It wasn’t fun.

          • colleen2

            neither are menstrual periods or childbirth. It is day surgery.

          • Shan

            It’s worth it.

  • Ian Norton

    “wouldn’t it be nice to have more diversity in video games?”

    Video games are art and people should make whatever they want to make. You shouldn’t try to inject your ideology into someone else’s art. You are more than welcome to create your own art with your own message, which brings me to my next point.

    If you want more gender equality in video games, support women that want to make games and stop criticizing sex-positive female characters made by women as “exclusively tailored to the imagined gaze of titty-obsessed heterosexual teenage boys” (I read this as a direct attack on Bayonetta, if I am wrong ignore this criticism.)

    I agree with most of the rest of this article, though. Harassment is never warranted. There is only one last piece I have a problem with; “I don’t know what you bros do in your little man-caves besides talk about razors and guns and farts”. Real men don’t shave ;)

    • Lenoxus

      Why is it that someone “shouldn’t try to inject your ideology into someone else’s art”, but it’s okay for you to explicitly make an ideological criticism of an article? Why can’t we insist that you go make your own article? Heck, unlike with a game review, you’ve actually entered on the space of this very article. Even the most powerful feminist game critic doesn’t have the ability to cause every copy of Bayonetta to come with feminist criticism.

      Anyway, politically-oriented analysis is what happens when video games are taken seriously as art, which they should be. This is exactly what happens with Hollywood movies all the time. Getting bothered by it is petty, and pretending that you’re only bothered because it is political and not because it’s the “wrong” politics is dishonest.

      By rebutting the original assertion and saying Bayonetta is a feminist sex-positive character (which is a legitimate position to make, even some feminists would agree with you), you’re having it both ways. You’re simultaneously saying that it’s wrong to inject ideology as an attack on a game, but it’s reasonable to do so in defense of it. Either Bayonetta’s status with respect to sexism/feminism is off limits for discussion (for no particularly good reason other than “You’re not the artist who made her”), or it IS up for discussion (which is how we treat literally everything else in the creative world).

      • Ian Norton

        Well, you’re right. Since this is an opinion piece it is not really guilty of trying to inject ideology into someone else’s art.

        By providing a forum here with no rules against constructive criticism, I feel that I am welcome to do so. And of course, I believe in a freedom of speech where anyone can criticize anything for whatever reason they want. I also reserve that right to criticize the criticism of things I enjoy. (obligatory mention of harassment never being warranted)

        What I should have said is that artists shouldn’t be influenced by ideologies they don’t share, especially when there are tons of other options, some that may even share your ideals. When I said “you shouldn’t try to inject your ideology in someone else’s art”, I meant that you shouldn’t use certain methods to do so, such as writing biased opinion pieces masquerading as objective criticisms. This article isn’t part of that problem, it just seems to be in support of it, and that is why I am critical of this piece.

        • Lenoxus

          Thanks for responding.

          At the start you say “Since this is an opinion piece it is not really guilty of trying to inject ideology into someone else’s art”, and later, you say something slightly different:

          I meant that you shouldn’t use certain methods to do so, such as writing biased opinion pieces masquerading as objective criticisms.

          This is blatent special pleading: “Opinions are okay, not reviews”. And in addition to the fact that GamerGaters are obviously expressing political notions of how a creative form (game reviews) should be, there’s still something hard-to-swallow about the notion that their real objection is to politicization in general, not to the particular politics.

          The basic argument for keeping politics out of game reviews always comes down to the word you used here: objective. But it’s been pointed out that “Objective review” is absurd and oxymoronic. Reviews are reflections of the reviewer’s opinion, which you are free to take or leave. The notion of reviews being “objective” in the way GamerGate implies it wants has been nicely mocked here and here, where things are reviewed as nothing more than a list of specs.

          I would have a lot more respect for GamerGate if it had started out as a completely non-threatening disagreement with the original thesis, instead of as a combination of a toxic explosion and a mealy-mouthed “Those harassers are awful but they have a point you know?”.

          None of the so-called socia ljustice warriors have ever hid behind “Video games and politics shouldn’t meet”, even when encountering the most disagreeable (to them) game, article, or review. Saying that is basically amounting to “I feel like I’m losing the culture war, so I’m going to pretend there’s a rule that no one is allowed to fight that war.” Many have come close to saying that outright — that what makes feminist criticism insidious is that it’s “everywhere”, so arguments in the other direction are okay because they improve balance. To be fair, that’s actually a bit like the feminist point about the culture being drenched in sexism, but it’s still wrong.

        • fiona64

          biased opinion pieces masquerading as objective criticisms.

          Aside from the fact that GamerGaters have been stone-cold busted over this lie …

          A review *is* an opinion piece. Reviews are inherently subjective. Or are you going to tell me that you’ve never gone to a critically acclaimed film and thought “This is a steaming pile of crap”? If reviews were objective, you would never disagree with a critic.

          • Anji Yukyuzan

            The “objectiveness” wanted is not the reviewers disconnecting themselves from their opinions, it’s the opinions of outsiders that is the problem. How the games make them feel in that moment is what a game review should be. Being compromised by companies, religion or politics is when these guys go from being reviewers to being sellers.

            And sellers tell you what ever they have to get you to buy/not buy a game.

          • fiona64

            I hate to break it to you, but most reviewers of *any* product receive the product free of charge. Does that mean that in my role as a book reviewer (which I happen to be), I am a book seller?

            No. It does not.

            It means that I am providing my *subjective opinion* about a book.

            But you keep on mansplaining and backpedaling, sweetie. It just continues to expose you and the rest of the GamerGaters for what you really are.

            Oh, and pro-tip? What you’re claiming Nathan Grayson did? Didn’t happen. http://kotaku.com/in-recent-days-ive-been-asked-several-times-about-a-pos-1624707346

            So, you can just stop pretending that it’s about “journalistic integrity” or “objective facts” or any of the other stuff you’re whining about as you try to pretend that it’s NOT about being pissed off at women in what you see as men’s spaces.

          • Anji Yukyuzan

            1) You’re not breaking anything to me, getting a demo/sample of the product is not being compromised or a seller. Most reviewers usually (and should) disclose if they came about the review, be it a borrowed demo, a provided sample or an outright purchase. So an viewer I can reasonably expect that one of these three things happened. What I can’t except is if your books come with 50 dollar bookmarks from the company or an equivalent to a cause you have.

            2)Nathan Grayson was a compromised individual, not disclosing that or even better recusing himself completely is the problem at hand. Exactly what he did is up for debate, he’s conflict is not. And this a protip for you pumpkin, a relationship for a man starts the monument I think I can **** you and ends when I know I can’t. Whether or not he was trying to get her attention or sympathetic to her is subjective, what is not is the fact he did have relations with that woman and was/is a compromised person.

            3)I don’t need to pretend any, these women being harassed by trolls does not indict gamer gate or the gripes they have with the middle man/games media. This is why you see ideas like ethics and objectiveness, because in a neutral setting the BEST ideas always win. So if the next big hero or game developer is a woman, no gamer will care when they rise to that position when comes about from equal evaluation. Not

          • fiona64

            And this a protip for you pumpkin, a relationship for a man starts the
            monument I think I can **** you and ends when I know I can’t.

            You are a joke.

          • catseye

            And Mr. PUA never has, and never will ever have an actual relationship.

    • redwolf68

      Your beard is strong, my friend. ;-)

    • variable

      “Video games are art and people should make whatever they want to make.
      You shouldn’t try to inject your ideology into someone else’s art.”

      Criticizing art is an art form in and of itself and no art form is or has even been above it. It’s profoundly weaselly of you to criticize an article for the act of criticizing a game, but then you’re an MRA GG dudebro who wants game journalism to only reflect your opinions or none at all.

  • Linda M

    Girls, can we have a talk? It appears you’ve all allowed yourself to be whipped into fear by the likes of Jezebel and Feministing. Can you please stop listening to these idiots and start looking at actual numbers?

    Love, a woman of science.

    • Anji Yukyuzan

      Also, stop defending shitty game/game makers because they have ovaries.

      Sometimes people don’t you, because of you. It’s not always a “GRAND ATTACK” on your gender/race/cola preference….

      • kest

        Are you implying that because someone makes a shitty game, threatening to rape and murder them is ok? Because it’s not.

        • Lenoxus

          Good point — not just the obvious, but the “defense” is literally a defense of the right not to be threatened.

          Seriously, it’s so predictable that EVERY FUCKING COUNTERARGUMENT to the threats takes the form of “It’s awful that she was threatened with death and rape and whatever, just terrible. But, it should be noted that she’s a bad person, and also she wasn’t targeted for being a woman, I just know it.”

        • Ian Norton

          Is that what he said? Huh.

          • Arekushieru

            If they’re only policing women’s or minority voices’ behaviour then yes, it is about sex/gender etc…. Either way, the fact that it is an attack kinda suggests this is about sex/gender, etc….

          • Ian Norton

            It’s not about the threats, it’s about what Anji is accused of implying. I don’t doubt that there are attacks because of sexism but I also don’t doubt that there are attacks because some jerk vehemently opposes a woman’s views and is only using sexism as a weapon, not a motive.

          • kest

            I guess what I’m trying to figure out is why I should stop defending them. If the people I happen to be defending happen to have ovaries, that doesn’t necessarily mean I’m defending them only *because* they have ovaries, especially if we’re going to extend the benefit of the doubt that they are not being attacked *because* they have ovaries. Although I find it highly suspicious that women get so many of these kinds of attacks and men get comparatively few.

          • fiona64

            I know, right? Chris Kluwe came right out and ripped GamerGate a new one. Result? Nada. Felicia Day mentions in her blog that she is concerned about GamerGate and is doxxed within an hour.

          • redlemon

            Hell, a (male) friend of mine posted an article on gamergate and a mutual acquaintance pretty much ignored it except for a comment of “That sucks”. I reposted the same article and this same acquaintance blasted me for being an ignorant female who hates autistic people (no idea where that came from).

          • John H

            Some misogynists really like using autistic people as a shield. They claim that the overwhelming majority of abuse women face in public spaces is from people who have difficulties understanding and internalizing basic norms of how to not treat others terribly. Of course, actual autistic people (high-functioning; low-functioning autistic people often can’t even
            make eye contact or engage in conversation at all, let alone harass
            people) who don’t also happen to be unrepentant misogynists or otherwise vindictive or sadistic try really hard to get social interactions “correct”, possibly analyzing how people interact over and over or practicing/rehearsing conversational norms. When misogynists use that meme, they’re attacking both women AND autistic people (there is, of course, overlap between those groups).

            That’s where the autistic-people-as-a-defense-of-misogyny meme comes from.

          • Ian Norton

            The autistic shit is just the same tactic that people are using to try to discredit GamerGate. Some anti-GG folks used autistic as an insult to gamers and now they’re all being called discriminatory.

          • Anji Yukyuzan

            Agreed

          • alternatesteve2

            Yeah, that’s not good at all, if true. Two wrongs don’t make a right. =(

          • fiona64

            FWIW, anyone who has not read Chris Kluwe’s essay (warning: a lot of obscenities, just in case you are the sort who is upset by them), here it is: https://medium.com/the-cauldron/why-gamergaters-piss-me-the-f-off-a7e4c7f6d8a6

          • badphairy

            But hey ladies, y’all are just overwrought and need some hysterectomies for your hysteria, amirite?

            /I hate people sometimes

          • fiona64

            need some hysterectomies for your hysteria

            Heh. I just wrote a scholarly article on 19th C. mental illness treatments for women. I have no doubt that some of the fabulous gents commenting here think that’s a valid strategy.

          • lady_black

            Who cares why? It’s not OK to attack others, and it’s definitely not OK to attack others based on who they are.

          • John H

            “I thought he only said that sometimes the attacks weren’t because of their target’s sex but because of their behavior.”
            If ze’s not suggesting that somehow minimizes the problem, then it’s a pure derail, which is still a silencing tactic that functions to maintain the shitty status quo. That kind of abuse is wrong, whether it’s becasue of one’s gender or becasue one made a video game you didn’t like. (WTF!? Seriously, is that supposed to be some kind of defense?) Be a better person next time.

          • Anji Yukyuzan

            This complete divorce of these women from there circumstance and the conflating of these trolls into every man is sickening. That’s my biggest gripe.

          • fiona64

            This complete divorce of these women from there circumstance

            You mean, their “circumstance” of daring to exist in a traditionally male space?

            the conflating of these trolls into every man is sickening. That’s my biggest gripe.

            If that is your biggest gripe, what are you doing to call out “these trolls”? My question is serious, because your assertions that “women’s games are shitty, and that’s an objective fact” (despite it being no such thing as objective fact) put you squarely in the camp of the GG trolls. Help me understand why this is.

          • http://mediajunkie.com/ xian

            it’s a fancy was of saying “not all men”

          • fiona64

            Agreed.

          • Anji Yukyuzan

            I mean their circumstances of being political, trolls, and shitty game makers…. among other things. Wu is a troll, does that play part in the attention she receives. Is sarkar a demagogue, does that play any part in her situation. Zoe’s terrible game and terrible sex life isn’t to blame at all for her situation? I call bs on absolving these women of any critiquing of their circumstances.

          • Shan

            “I call bs on absolving these women of any critiquing of their circumstances.”

            I call BS on victim blaming.

          • fiona64

            Okay. So to your list of sterling qualities (which already contains tone-policing and mansplaining), I will now add victim-blaming.

          • variable

            Good news, then! It’s only the trolls doing that conflating. The irony is that the biggest gripe gamergaters have with women talking about gaming is a total fiction.

            You are welcome.

        • Anji Yukyuzan

          straw man, try again…

          • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

            LOL. You idiots love the term straw man but have no idea what it means.

          • Sarah Jenson

            No, honestly, I really think you don’t know what it means. Or Ad hominem for that matter. Seriously. Who are you. How do you live your life?

          • Anji Yukyuzan

            How do figure that miss.

          • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

            Straw man: Argument set up to be defeated.

            Therefore the dismissal of credible threats against any human beings (male or female) being dismissed because some bros are upset about which games are good or bad IS ACTUALLY A STRAW MAN ARGUMENT.

            The issue here is not which games are good or bad. You can keep saying that, but it’s really that NO MATTER WHICH GAMES ARE GOOD, nobody deserves to have CREDIBLE THREATS made against their PHYSICAL SAFETY.

            Saying “WELL THEIR GAMES SUCK!” is IRRELEVANT to the point of the matter which is “THERE IS NO REASON TO THREATEN TO KILL OR RAPE ANOTHER HUMAN BEING.”

          • Anji Yukyuzan

            Straw manning is building a Faux position for your opponent to defend.

            “Also, stop defending shitty game/game makers because they have ovaries.

            Sometimes people don’t like you, because of you. It’s not always a “GRAND ATTACK” on your gender/race/cola preference….”

            Is my original quote.

            Please tell me how we get from this to your reinterpretation (you’re not the first) “The issue here is not which games are good or bad. You can keep saying that, but it’s really that NO MATTER WHICH GAMES ARE GOOD, nobody deserves to have CREDIBLE THREATS made against their PHYSICAL SAFETY.”

            Thanks, I know one day we’ll get to a point where victimhood isn’t end all be all when dealing with my “equals”.

          • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

            Because the issue — regardless of who you think made the threats and their association with gaming, gamergate, or videos games at large — is that it’s not ok to threaten other human beings with death or physical harm.

            I don’t care how confused you are and what arguments you’re making about video games. I dont’ care about video games. And I dont’ care which ones you think are good, bad, etc.

            It’s not “VICTIMHOOD” to expect that as a human being, I should be allowed to exist on the internet without having my personal safety threatened, whether or not you like what i say.

            Since you condescend to women as evidenced by your quotes, I’ll have you know you should probably learn to proxy before posting on a forum like this. I can see your location and I’m happy to make it public for you.

            Secondly, your brain is obviously a mushy sponge, perhaps you should consider a community college course in logical analysis to help you. That would be an improvement.

            Finally, I’m not your equal. I am your Superior. Intellectually, sexually, athletically, socially. Everything. I know it hurts, but you’ll come to terms with it as the cause for your confusion eventually.

            You can jerk off to my avi if you pay me.

          • Anji Yukyuzan

            “I dont’ care……”

            Yeah I get that feeling a lot when dealing your kind. The truth matters little, it’s all about the victims justice, which usually means invaliding any and all discourse. Which is always convenient. I also see the lack of righteousness as well.

            Shaming is wrong, so you shame.
            Threatening is wrong, so you threaten.
            Condescending, objectifying, silencing…ect

            So pumpkin, you do not represent every person in your “group”, so whatever you decide to do is on you.

          • http://www.blackmarketwitch.com/ Brookman

            I don’t have a kind. I am singular. Sovereign.

            You wouldn’t understand, because you’re a beta. You blame your problems on others. Ironically, victim-minded. Your whole argument is that it’s fair to say whatever you want across the internet and no one should complain that they’re victims….even if their personal safety is threatened.

            So why should I respect yours? Turning your techniques back on your kind is the only manner of effective penetration into your minds.

            The truth matters SUPREMELY. The truth also exists outside of the context you try to contort to suit your own needs.

            That is why I exist.

            Additionally, I never said shaming was wrong. You must have me confused. No, no. I believe that miscreant wastrels like yourself deserve to be shamed, and outed for the sexually frustrated trolls that you are.

            It’s the only way to get through to you. So guess what….

            You’re impotent. Socially inept. Mentally quite weak. You hide behind some sense of male supremacy because it would hurt your ego fatally to acknowledge that females exist who could smoke you on multiple planes.

            You’re, likewise, Incapable of securing the positive attention of said females, or any females really. Because, well, again, undesirable.

            So you retreat into your world and hate them, secretly praying that the environment in which you take shelter becomes so hostile that they leave you alone there. You use whatever flimsy excuse for “truth” to defend your behavior, but deep down you know that you only feign to hate them because you want them so badly it hurts and you will never, ever have them.

            No matter which games you like or dislike, that isn’t going away.

            You’re welcome.

          • Anji Yukyuzan

            Yeah you have a kind. You can keep trying to twist what I post or misinterpret my words to fit your views, but I feel no need to be defensive over your insults or straw manning. At this point all I see is projection and who ever you hurt is the bad guy pudding, not me.

            My whole argument is that unlikeable women being confronted and/or harassed doesn’t equate to misogyny. The truth of these women is they have baggage that if they were men, would be fair game to bring up. They have issues that random harassment shouldn’t be a universal victimhood cover for. Attacking whole groups of people because of your “expectations” of cordial discourse on the internet is the height foolishness. No a truly sovereign person doesn’t “expect” anything they can’t get of their own accord.

            I don’t blame these individual women for anything, but I will always have my opinions on their politics, their shitty contributions to the gaming culture i’m involved in and their flaws/hypocrisies.

            So keep attacking, anger is probably the only defense you know, but on a space like this I RESPONSIBLY understand that finding someone like you was bound to happen. It’s not a reason for me to hysterical in the least.

      • Lenoxus

        Care to name a shitty game-msker, or is she “Literally Who”?

        • Anji Yukyuzan

          Pass, they are covered “literally” everywhere if you really need to look….

          • redwolf68

            Way to dodge the question, dude. Just proving you don’t get it.

          • variable

            Wow, way to demonstrate the courage of your convictions. I’m pretty sure your GG buddies went after Zoe Quinn becuase of the journalism slanted In Favor of Depression Quest.

            So you gonna try again, or are you going to keep waffling, backpedaling, and calling em like you see them?

          • Anji Yukyuzan

            I’d rather pass, you know who they are. It’s not like we are going to have a debate about shitty 3rd party Atari games, or LJN or the many shitty indie games out there today. Obvious trap is obvious.

      • Arekushieru

        And here I thought all the Gamergaters were against this purely because of ethics in journalism. Oh… wait… no, I didn’t.

        • Anji Yukyuzan

          And I thought at the least some of you could understand that your labels are hollow. These Womens’ games are shitty, that is a fact!

          • kest

            That’s your opinion, and you’re welcome to it. Again, it’s still not an excuse to threaten to rape and murder them.

          • Anji Yukyuzan

            Again straw man, why not ask me if I still beat my wife as well?

          • variable

            You desperately need to learn what a straw man is. You also might take a moment to peruse the topic of the article under which you are inveighing against all games made by women.

          • badphairy

            Aren’t you supposed to be female? So you’re pretending to be a married lesbian too?

          • lady_black

            Don’t play the game, then, Jethro.

          • fiona64

            These Womens’ games are shitty, that is a fact!

            Actually, no. It’s an opinion. You need to learn the difference between the two, evidently.

          • Anji Yukyuzan

            No, there is standard in video games, like any other respectable form of entertainment. Random letters are gibberish, offensive sounds is noise, games with no game play are shitty. Fact.

          • fiona64

            You stated that “women’s games are shitty.” That’s an opinion. There is no objective standard that says “if they are made by a woman, they are shitty.”

            Don’t trip while you backpedal.

          • Anji Yukyuzan

            I did not say that, these womens involved in gamer gate shitty games don’t represent all or every. This people should be taking as the individuals they are.

          • fiona64

            Don’t trip over yourself while you backpedal …

          • fiona64

            I’m sorry. What you actually said was “These Women’s games are shitty.” I left out a word. And your capitalization — which clearly indicates that you think that it is “women’s games” in general are “shitty.” You also claimed that your opinion was “objective fact,” which it patently is not.

            Your Freudian slip is showing … and you’re backpedaling again.

          • Anji Yukyuzan

            Well I’m telling you that “these” refers to this gg specific group, I would have just said Womens if I meant all. My issues with lumping people into groups really doesn’t hold weight if I do it myself. What do you think I am, a feminist?

          • fiona64

            Oh, I’m very clear on what you are, Anji: an angry little dudebro.

          • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

            So don’t play them.

            IT’S SO EASY!! It’s your FREE solution that takes literally ZERO time from your own life!

            You’re welcome!

          • Anji Yukyuzan

            How does that make these specific games less shitty? Maybe your not involved in gaming culture, but having opinions, debates and ratings of the gaming landscape is a big part in this culture. So not “playing them” isn’t really the issue at hand.

          • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

            The issue at hand, my little pedant, is that whether or not you like someone’s games, you can’t tell them you’re going to come to their house and kill them.

            OK? OK.

          • Anji Yukyuzan

            I think you need to understand the difference between can’t and shouldn’t. Trolls can do whatever they want to. If I’m told to back up something I stated “These games are shitty”, I will. If that is justification for trolls to do what they do, was never my claim.

          • http://www.blackmarketwitch.com/ Brookman

            You can’t back up an opinion with empirical evidence. Further, this article is not claiming any game is good or bad. So neither your nor anyone else’s opinion of the games does not factor into play here, rendering them irrelevant to the discussion here.

            Is back pedaling good exercise? Does it tone your glutes?

          • Anji Yukyuzan

            It was my discussion. If you ever noticed there was an original post that I agreed with and addended with a comment. It factors into the many reason why these women, the basis of this article, have trolls and harassers.

          • nm

            why the fuck are you even here then? like, what are you trying to say? you apparently agree that the trolls should not have made death threats period so what is your end game here?

          • Anji Yukyuzan

            I’m here because I agreed with a post that I quoted and added my own thoughts. Stopped being whipped up by Demagogues, trolls and smuts, people might not like them because they are unlikeable people.

          • Erica_JS

            Let’s say I grant your premise. These women created the worst games ever. Fine. HOW do you justify getting from there, to rape and death threats?

            I mean, I’m not crazy about the Disney board games my little cousins make me play with them, but I’m not out there boiling with incoherent rage threatening to murder the creator.

          • Anji Yukyuzan

            You don’t justify threats by women or feminist, why do I have to of trolls on the internet? I’m in to hip-hop, do I justify every ill of that medium, do I need to have a yo bro talk? The entirety of this article is offense if I view it by any other trait I have, other then having a dangler. Because you know it’s evil, contemptible and what not.

          • http://mediajunkie.com/ xian

            weird wingnut capitalization, generalization with no detail, lack of sense

          • Anji Yukyuzan

            “And I thought at the least some of you could understand that your labels are hollow.”

      • fiona64

        And sometimes it is because a woman dares to exist in a traditionally male space. Go fig.

        • Anji Yukyuzan

          Maybe… but not these women, they are political baggage wrapped in shitty games, the worst mascots I’ve ever seen.

          • fiona64

            What an angry little dudebro you are.

          • Anji Yukyuzan

            Oh, I must have missed the cnnmsnbcnytimedwashingtonpostguardianbbchuffingtonnewsweekcolbertreporting of Phil fish. I’ll try to be a better person….. in the future.

          • fiona64

            No, I posted to the right person. You are obviously angry at women for daring to exist in a traditionally male space; hence your assertion that “all women’s games are shitty,” and trying to claim it as an objective fact rather than opinion.

          • http://mediajunkie.com/ xian

            you should try forming original thoughts

      • Guest

        Right, agreed – then why threaten to rape them and call them cunts, shove things up them etc. How is that not about gender? Even our post, you couldn’t resist using the term “ovaries.” Why?

        If it actually is just about critiquing a game, why even bring up gender or genitalia at all, let alone threaten to sexually attack them?

        • Anji Yukyuzan

          Because Phil fish was hacked and I don’t see a tenth of the support for him. Definitively that is a clear demarcation of Ovaries over Danglars.

          • kest

            So, if you’ve got one guy who got hacked (was he threatened? or just hacked?) and at *least* ten women who’ve been harassed, doesn’t that make the support ratio about right? Just to be clear, I don’t think *anyone* should be harassed like this, but it does happen to women much more often than men, so there’s probably something going on there that isn’t just in a bunch of people’s heads.

          • Anji Yukyuzan

            Who said there wasn’t something going on? I’m just pointing out how marginalised one person who had the worst attack perpetrated by these people is. Further marginalizing of the dangler doesn’t really help. Do you even who fish is? Would be a better question at this point

          • kest

            I was aware of the Phil Fish hacking when it happened. I’ve spent some time googling, though, and haven’t found any mention that he was physically threatened, just that his personal information was released, which was itself described as a ‘public execution’, as opposed to the women whose physical bodies are threatened with execution. Furthermore, since Fish was doxxed for vocally supporting Quinn, I don’t think he’d appreciate being dragged into your ‘but what about the MENZ’ argument here.

          • Anji Yukyuzan

            Of course, minimize an actual attack because of your warped ideology.

            My point in bringing up fish is I noticed that A) he isn’t as publicized because he has a dangler B) isn’t really convenient to have to always say “it’s about women….. And Phil Fish”

          • fiona64

            I’m just pointing out how marginalised one person who had the worst attack perpetrated by these people is.

            And let’s talk about Phil Fish for a minute, shall we? Your precious GGers did what they did *because* he supported Zoe Quinn. And it doesn’t appear that he has had to go into hiding to me … http://www.gamespot.com/articles/phil-fish-selling-rights-to-fez-after-being-hacked/1100-6421882/

          • Anji Yukyuzan

            I know why Phil was attacked, around the same time Wu was harassed for the same reason. To be clear, I do not agree with what happened to anybody who was/is being hassered.

            And with one hand I hold that statement like a reasonable person and continue with another. I see no reason why he isn’t apart of the conversation lately other than he is a man. He is the most accomplished of this indie bunch, suffered the biggest loses and yet i can find critically thought out articles about his past leading up to this attack on him.

            And by no means does anyone’s thoughts about him likely going to quit anyway or being up set with his coverage/fans also playing a part in him calling it quits, ever have to deal with straw man arguments of “so your saying you condone, blah blah blah”.

            I just find odd that he is the odd man out of the story being presented for these damsels in distress.

          • fiona64

            He is the most accomplished of this indie bunch

            According to you, of course.

            suffered the biggest lose

            Yes, selling your domain name and product for millions of dollars is a huge loss compared to having to leave your home and employment due to credible threats. /sarc

            I just find odd that he is the odd man out of the story being presented for these damsels in distress.

            And I find it odd that you fail to comprehend why women here think you’re a sexist dudebro.

          • lady_black

            Oh, GROW UP, little boy.

          • Anji Yukyuzan

            Calling it like I sees it.

          • Sarah Jenson

            Very mature and reasonable comment. Good response. 10/10. I like the way you responded to the content of what he said.

          • lady_black

            There was no content to respond to. He made a claim, unsubstantiated by anything but his say-so. He then proceeded to make an unsubstantiated conclusion from his unsubstantiated claim. I appreciate your attempt to inform me that A Man Has Spoken, and no mere woman shall attempt to dispute what he’s claimed, um “Sarah.”

          • nm

            <3 u

          • John H

            “Because Phil fish was hacked and I don’t see a tenth of the support for him.”
            Then you should probably open your eyes. It’s right there, one Google search away. Be a better person next time.

          • Anji Yukyuzan

            Oh, I must have missed the cnnmsnbcnytimedwashingtonpostguardianbbchuffingtonnewsweekcolbertreporting of Phil fish. I’ll try to be a better person….. in the future.

          • http://mediajunkie.com/ xian

            uh, that’s a talking point, not a coherent comment.

      • JamieHaman

        When it’s a shitty game, say it’s a shitty game. No body has a problem with that. DON”T say “It’s a shitty game, and you deserve to be anally raped, or killed for it.”
        See the difference?

        • Anji Yukyuzan

          That’s why I’m saying it’s a shitty game. Do you see what I’m saying or are you adding intent to MY post that aren’t there?

          • kest

            What you said was, stop defending them (from, in the context of the article you put the comment on, rape and murder threats). And if you want to say someone made a shitty game, that’s your opinion. But if someone adds a heinous threat to their opinion, then they should be defended, regardless of what anyone thinks of the quality of their game.

          • Anji Yukyuzan

            “Girls, can we have a talk? It appears you’ve thereall allowed yourself to be whipped into fear by the likes of Jezebel and Feministing. Can you please stop listening to these idiots and start looking at actual numbers?

            Love, a woman of science.”

            My comment was in the context of this reply. So in addition to that, how about being more then femguard status for “developers” who make shitty games.

      • lady_black

        If it’s a “shitty game” you have a choice that doesn’t include threats. Don’t play it. Making threats isn’t an option for you.

        • Anji Yukyuzan

          “Stop defending shitty games/game makers because they have ovaries”

          Only thing I’ve said here about that issue.

          • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

            They’re not defending their GAMES, they’re defending their right to exist in the world without being threatened, raped, or killed for doing so, whether or not you, and your almighty judgement of their creation, appreciates them.

          • fiona64

            Anji is an angry little dudebro, that’s for sure.

      • Erica_JS

        “Defending” from what? From calm, reasonable critiques of someone’s game or writing? OK, done, I have no knowledge of games, thus no standing or motivation to get involved in a discussion of them. From vicious misogynistic rape and death threats? No, that I am going to defend anyone from, because no one deserves that, period.

      • http://mediajunkie.com/ xian

        straw man. assumes facts not in evidence.

    • Tapati McDaniels

      I don’t care about stats because it’s happened to me and I’ve observed it happening to others. Do we need to reach some critical mass before it counts?

    • kest

      There appear to be an awful lot of actual numbers linked to in this post

    • Shan

      Actual numbers for what?

      And which of them would include these?

      http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/aspiring-actress-catcall-video-receiving-rape-threats-exec-article-1.1991391

      “Emily May, the executive director of Hollaback!, which sponsored the public service
      announcement featuring Shoshana Roberts, said the actress has been hit with a slew of rape threats after the video came out. The group is currently filing police reports about the online harassment.”

    • John H

      You mean like this?
      http://www.pewinternet.org/2014/10/22/online-harassment/

      Do your own Googling from now on instead of insisting others educate you. Stop deploying apologetics that minimize the harm and prevalence of interpersonal abuse, irrespective of the mode of transmission. Be a better person.

    • coffee breath

      Just because your crotch stench keeps the predators away doesn’t mean we normal women don’t have to suffer through unwanted sexual advances whenever we step outside.

    • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

      Would love to bring this experience to your front door personally to see how you enjoy it. Shall i?

      • Ian Norton

        Wow, did you just threaten someone? I’m overcome by your hypocrisy. I hope you were being sarcastic.

        • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

          That is my point and likewise.

    • http://mediajunkie.com/ xian

      your concern is noted

    • badphairy

      Oh look, a man posting as a woman telling us all not to worry our pretty little heads about this.

  • Tapati McDaniels

    Having received graphic and sexualized death threats and been doxxed, thank you for this. I find that I sometimes censor myself out of fear of drawing more.

    • Ian Norton

      Yeah, it sucks. The trolls win if they censor you and they win if you talk about them in public. The only way to win is to ignore them but I realize how challenging this can be. I hope you’re safe.

      • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

        No. Enough. When your (or your gs, wives, daughters, friends etc) home address is online and they are raped and killed, then maybe we can have this conversation again. This is past the point of “tommy called me a mean name” and into AGGRESSIVE and WIDESPREAD VIOLENCE against women on the Internet AMD in the world. Why is this so difficult to understand?

        • rollins3490

          Could be due to your ESL

          • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

            Do you feel better about yourself now? I would OWN you in any linguistic endeavor and don’t even get me started on a broader intellectual discussion. You’re probably some unremarkable, pasty, soft white dude sitting in your corporate cubicle in some mid-range American city.

            Getting close?

            Perhaps you should learn how to proxy before making inconsequential piggish comments on the internet.

          • Ian Norton

            Since you’re so intelligent, I’m sure you’ve heard of the term ‘ad hominem’, right?

          • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

            Right, which is precisely what I was responding to, an ad hominem attack. Is your ginger beard the source of your vast intelligence?

          • Ian Norton

            Actually, yes. My beard grants me +2 intelligence and +4 wisdom.

          • fiona64

            Unfortunately, it also gives you -16 charisma. :-/

          • Ian Norton

            Hahaha ouchh!

          • BurleyBarry

            That’s pretty funny actually.

            But it doesn’t make your comments any less piggish/helpful. Is it really such a big deal to start up a conversation about this? What level of awful does this situation have to reach before you’re like, meh, I guess it matters now? I’m so sick of dudes requiring proof that this is a situation that isn’t cool. Use your eyes. It clearly isn’t cool that so many people are threatening other people with violence on the internet. Its just NOT COOL. but hey, let’s wait til someonesomeone especially awful decides its socially acepptable enough to actually, really harm someone. Then it’ll be real enough shit for you, huh?

            BTW, I found you on Facebook. I really like that beard of yours in all your pictures.

          • Ian Norton

            How am I piggish? Just because I actually want to talk about the nature of these threats? I’m only prodding flaws in arguments and attempting to provoke critical thought.

            Even if (and especially when) the argument is for a good cause I want to help make it the most reasonable, logically sound argument as possible.

            I never asked for proof that harassment was a horrible thing to do. I thought that was a given. I asked for proof that anonymous harassment specifically was linked to actual violence, because that was the claim that was made.

          • variable

            Oh, a sad little devil’s advocate troll. Tell you what, dearie, while you are wanking to your attempt to provoke thought in your lessers the rest of us are discussing the lived experiences of real people. Please restrict your puerile intellectual exercises to those moments in the bath when the rest of us can really appreciate your insight into what is most reasonable and sound.

            Translation: Please STFU now. You are being a douche.

          • http://mediajunkie.com/ xian

            evidence!

          • fiona64

            Just because I actually want to talk about the nature of these threats?

            Which must surely explain why you waved your stupid paw and dismissed said threats since no one had been raped or murdered YET …

          • rollins3490

            you are a pathetic little rapee

          • fiona64

            Flagged for hate speech and victim-shaming.

          • rollins3490

            your grasp of english is very discouraging. your mother would be ashamed if i ever let her out of my cellar.

          • night porter

            NO, fiona is correct, I would have to say that that particular comment = hate speech and sounds vaguely threatening

          • rollins3490

            lol no maam. perception is all you will ever have, but you will enjoy life more if you first comprehend that which you are defending.

          • night porter

            Suuuure.

          • rollins3490

            hate speech? threatening? you have no idea what you speak of.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually, I think we have a very good idea of what you’re about. Which is why we’re flagging you.

          • rollins3490

            your mother failed all of us

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, I think that was your mother. After all, she gave birth to you.

          • rollins3490

            when you are of the popular opinion, it is time for self relfection.

          • alternatesteve2

            rollins3490, please fuck off and go away. Kthxbai.

          • rollins3490

            women will learn that they can’t have their cake and eat it too. dont worry

          • alternatesteve2

            Are you one of those MGTOWs, btw?

          • rollins3490

            I have no idea… I just don’t appreciate girls that take such pompous, arrogant positions to make their points of peace and justice.

          • fiona64

            And flagged again.

          • rollins3490

            and you continue to show your aptitude. read the TOS, head to khan academy. read the posts again. recognize that this feminist warrior jennifer is harming her gender more than she can ever hope to help with her bigoted, presumptive and condescending position she takes before attempting comprehension. i think your mother says happy halloween. hard to tell with the ball gag.

          • fiona64

            And again.

          • rollins3490

            first one that will have validity. good luck dustypune

          • fiona64

            And again.

          • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

            Except not by you, never by you because it’s painfully obviously that you have a teeny, tiny little man piece…a shriveled little skin tag just dangling there unused from the front of your body.

            Awwww. So cute.

          • Sarah Jenson

            What is with you and aggressive body shaming? This is a consistent pattern. Language like that is super triggering for a lot of people struggling with body dysmorphia. How can you justify saying something like that when it might really harm the feelings of a completely innocent person reading through the comments? Yes, the person you’re responding to was being an asshat and, as the author of the article so eloquently put it, a garbage person, but that doesn’t mean that you should be too…

          • rollins3490

            lol enjoy yourself. though im not sure could anymore.

          • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

            What was that about ESL, simp?

          • rollins3490

            your message may be based in truth, but your pathetic choice to stand against, instead of with, shows just how together you are. good luck rapee

          • fiona64

            Flagged again.

          • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

            Just replying to your ad hominem in superior form, limpdick.

          • rollins3490

            and now we have settled the aptitude debate as well. good luck

          • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

            You’re right. I am your Superior you should be cleaning the bottom of my shoes with your tongue. But i’d charge you for the privilege and your basic corporate slave job wouldn’t afford you the chance..

          • Sarah Jenson

            Replying to an ad hominem with another ad hominem is not superior form. It’s just you also being a jerk. Superior form would be not dignifying a comment as disgusting as that one with a response

          • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

            Oh, you know what, it must be that I don’t have any interest in playing nice with little boys who run around the Internet referring to women as “rapees” … More like I have a vested interest in frying their shame-arousal circuitry that motivates this type of behavior, usually a deep-seated feeling of inadequacy. It’s time that women stopped politely asking these degenerates to treat them with respect and started to dismantle them by their weaknesses.

            Tables turned.

            You can see who I am by using the Google machine, Sarah.

            Do you make handlers give you cookies for standing up for them when they’re bad boys?

            Have a great day’

          • Sarah Jenson

            I really don’t think they mind. The whole point of being an internet troll is that you find getting an aggressive and inflamed reaction out of someone satisfying. I on the otherhand sort of do mind being called… well whatever someone who has handlers is. I’m just as interdependent and empowered as you are, I just don’t express if by getting violently angry at someone (in a way that could inadvertently hurt others) who was clearly trying to provoke exactly that response. Also, how was I standing up for him? I think what he said was filthy and I think he’s a bad person because of it. I just also think that you body shaming in a way that could trigger someone else makes you kind of a bad person too.

        • Ian Norton

          Widespread violence?

          Do you want to share with me some statistics that show that women being raped and/or beaten by strangers is widespread? I’d be happy to look at them.

          • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

            It’s not my job to educate you. Your willful ignorance is neither compelling nor convincing. RUN ALONG AND READ THE INTERNET.

          • Ian Norton

            I couldn’t find any compelling evidence that stranger rape was as widespread as you’re claiming, and therefore I am lead to believe that these threats, if they’re as numerous as you claim, aren’t credible based on statistics.

            In fact, the vast majority of rapes are committed by people the victims know. I have to conclude then that the chances of these threats being a cruel joke are extremely high. That isn’t to say that you shouldn’t err on the side of caution and take them seriously regardless, but you shouldn’t try to bolster your argument by presenting them all as credible when not a single threat has come to fruition.

          • Guest

            I don’t work for free, dude. There are links all over this thread.

            Good luck.

          • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

            This article wasn’t written out of thin air.

            So, It’s not MY ARGUMENT. And even if so, I don’t work for free, dude. There are links all over this thread.

            Open your eyes. Ladies like that. Good luck.

          • Matthew Lane

            “This article wasn’t written out of thin air.”

            No it was written out of dense dogma, which is actually worse.

          • fiona64

            Jesus wept; is anyone really this obtuse?

            you shouldn’t try to bolster your argument by presenting them all as credible when not a single threat has come to fruition.

            YET. Has not come to fruition YET.

          • Jld33

            Actually that’s not true, certainly there have been women who have been threatened online with rape who have indeed been raped. I’ve met several. Difficult to prove they were the same people who threatened it, but it’s certainly possible. Of course considering how many women get threatened with violence and how many women get raped, of course it’s going to happen.

          • fiona64

            I think you may have missed the fact that I was quoting Ian. Those words in italics? Are his, not mine.

          • Jld33

            sorry wrong reply to!

          • fiona64

            No worries; Disqus hiccups sometimes. It’s happened to the best of us.

          • Matthew Lane

            Oh you mean like how we need to spend billions building giant mechs to stop the Kaiju from destroying major cities…. Oh sure there has never been a single Kaiju ever, YET!

            You are literally shadow boxing an imaginary enemy you’ve invented out of whole clothe.

            Ians right, not one of these supposed threats has ever resulted in any actual harm ever being done to anyone & is less common place when directed towards women than when EXACTLY the same kind of messages is directed towards equally outspoken men online.

            You need to put a pin in this professional victimhood routine, because the need to appeal to victimhood status just says that your views are incapable of standing without creating a fictional victim narrative.

          • fiona64

            Oh, yes. “What about the menz!”

            Ians right, not one of these supposed threats has ever resulted in any actual harm ever being done to anyone

            That’s right, sweetie; no woman has ever been stalked, threatened, and *harmed* ever. In the history of the world.

            Dumbass.

          • kest

            So here’s a question. If someone posted *your* home address, along with explicit violent imagery of what they’re going to do to you when they come over, would you just ignore it? I do note you say that one should err on the side of caution and taking it seriously, but at the same time you are presenting them as not credible and saying they should be ignored. The argument in the article here is that perhaps some social pressure in the direction of people *not making* such threats in the first place is in order. Like, maybe it shouldn’t be the full time job of women to try to figure out what horrible disturbing threats are ‘credible’ or not while being told we should protect the right of people to be trolls on the internet, yeah?

          • Ian Norton

            I would report it to the relevant authorities and not publicize it as they would advise. That is, unless I wanted to become a professional victim and publicize them to benefit monetarily from others’ sympathy like Anita Sarkeesian does or Zoe Quinn did.

            In this particular argument, Jessica Brookman claimed that the online threats were “past the point of [name calling]” and “into WIDESPREAD VIOLENCE against women”. I was challenging the claim that online threats and actual violence were connected.

          • kest

            As far as I know, all of the people who have received such threats reported it to the relevant authorities. However, sometimes the authorities also struggle in situations such as these. Their investigations take time – life is not like CSI. Also, what makes you think the authorities would advise to not publicize it? Furthermore, I’m not sure having to cancel speaking engagements counts as ‘benefiting monetarily’. I do think I agree that what’s been going on transcends ‘name-calling’, although I think I would have gone for describing it as terrorism. Threats like these are themselves a form of violence, whether or not they are eventually carried out, and are designed to force women to live in fear, which no one should have to do.

          • Ian Norton

            And what should we do to combat terrorism? Spread the fear by publicizing it? Isn’t that what terrorists want?

          • variable

            Actually they usually have a specific goal, e.g. US out of the middle east, Britain out of Ireland, etc. In this case the goal is to shut people like Sarkeesian and Wu up. You are advising that we capitulate to terrorism, which pretty much argues that you are on their side. You just want the women to shut up and go away every time they are threatened.

          • fiona64

            You just want the women to shut up and go away every time they are threatened.

            No, I think he just wants women to shut up and go away, period.

          • fiona64

            Oh, Reddit. Yeah, that’s a bastion of serious journalism right there …

          • nm

            LOL HE POSTED A REDDIT

          • variable

            “not publicize it as they would advise”

            You have no idea what the police would advise. I can tell you from personal experience that the police often suggest making such threats public precisely to let the threatening party know that the police are involved and that they will be hunted down if they continue their actions.

            But then… “unless I wanted to become a professional victim”

            Which is the same MRA/GG troll BS we’ve been hearing for years to try to shut women up. Here’s a tip: There is no such thing as “professional victim.” It’s another word for “uppity woman,” you just aren’t allowed to say that any more. It’s called a tell. It lets us know that you’re not just a ton-policing concern troll, but an actual sexist jerk who’s just trying to put women in their place.

            You’ve been outed. It’s time for you to leave.

          • Matthew Lane

            “You have no idea what the police would advise”

            Actually we do since its common practice among all branches of law enforcement.

          • variable

            Total, BS. Unless you can prove otherwise, of course. None of the women discussed in the article above were advised to “not publicize it,” but you already knew that because you’ve been following the story of their harassment, haven’t you?

          • Matthew Lane

            “Total, BS. Unless you can prove otherwise, of course”

            Except its a well known fact, it’s actually part of the FBI cyber crimes source material, which is where the rest of the country gets its cyber crime training from at a state level.

            “None of the women discussed in the article above were advised to not publicize it,”

            To quote you in reply to you: “Total, BS. Unless you can prove otherwise, of course”

            But the fact is that they were not told anything, because they by and large did not report it, because they just like everyone else doesn’t take the threats seriously…. The only reason the publicise them is to continue to build there threat narrative as a shield against scrutiny, in exactly the same way people here have been using it, ala:

            Rational Person: But she is clearly wrong on [insert thing she is objectively wrong about]

            Irrational Person: Oh but she got threats of violence, so it doesn’t matter how wrong she is about anything, she’s now immediately in the right, because someone somewhere said something mildly threatening with no follow through.

          • fiona64

            But the fact is that they were not told anything, because they by and
            large did not report it, because they just like everyone else doesn’t
            take the threats seriously.

            Oh, obviously … since they only left their jobs and homes and stuff. /snark

          • Matthew Lane

            Who is this THEY you keep on referring to. Because Anita did not leave her home or her job & neither did anyone else.

          • fiona64

            Well, there were a whole mess of links in the article with which you could begin your search for information …

          • Matthew Lane

            And? If I give you a whole mess of links to the flat earth society it doesn’t make their claims any the less objectively false.

          • fiona64

            So, if you’re just going to pretend that the information already available to you right in this article is “objectively false,” help me understand why I should be your unpaid research assistant?

            Just for fun, though, here’s someplace for you to start: https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2014/10/14/another-game-developer-flees-her-home-following-gamergate-death-threats/

            To sum up, in one article we have documentation re: Wu, Quinn *and* Sarkeesian.

            You’re welcome. You can look up others on your own time.

          • Matthew Lane

            “So, if you’re just going to pretend that the information already available to you right in this article is “objectively false,” help me understand why I should be your unpaid research assistant?”

            I know you think you just said something clever, but what you actually just did was announce that your views do not require any kind of evidence to support them. By that logic the earth is flat, because the flat earth society says its flat, no evidence required.

          • fiona64

            but what you actually just did was announce that your views do not require any kind of evidence to support them

            So, I’m going to go with “Matthew couldn’t bother to read the information I provided him.”

            And you wonder why I called out your laziness? Really?

          • Matthew Lane

            Except you’ve objectively NOT cited the source for any comment you’ve made in this comment tree. One cannot look at what you have not provided & have even made a big deal out of not providing. Lets be honest here, we both know none of what you say is founded in reality, which is why you refuse to cite sources: Because your self created threat narrative has no source, its self created & echo chamber reinforced.

          • fiona64

            Gaslighting. What a laugh.

          • Matthew Lane

            So you are self aware enough to know you are attempting to gaslight?

          • fiona64

            And now we’ve moved onto projection, I see …

          • Matthew Lane

            LOL I love how you had to go in after the fact to insert a link & then pretend it was their the entire time & then announce that someone else was gas lighting & then when called on it announced projection.

            The irony being that you were objectively gas lighting & projecting your gas lighting on to others.

          • fiona64

            Your lies and gaslighting don’t work here. You need to admit that you didn’t freaking bother to look.

            GFY.

          • variable

            Yeah, the bad faith and goalpost moving is pretty profound in this one, but “it’s actually part of the FBI cyber crimes source material” takes the cake.

            Let me reiterate, there is no standard policy for these kinds of threats and repeating the total LIE that most of the women thus threatened did not go to the police would be irrelevant even if it were true, because we are discussing those who did and who have gone public.

            I know it’s a big burden to prove a negative, but you’ve made a positive assertion and cowardly are hiding under a demonstrable falsehood to avoid having to put up or shut up.

            Rational Person: Here is the national policy on investigating credible threats against a person’s life regarding discussions with the press:

            Irrational Person: Oh, she got threats of violence, so let’s talk about the completely unrelated ways in which she is wrong instead of targeting the group that collaborated to threaten her.

          • http://mediajunkie.com/ xian

            i see you have your talking points straight

          • fiona64

            That is, unless I wanted to become a professional victim and publicize
            them to benefit monetarily from others’ sympathy like Anita Sarkeesian
            does or Zoe Quinn did.

            You? Seriously need to fuck off. These women had to leave their JOBS and their HOMES.

            The only professional victims I see are the angry little neckbeards who feel threatened by having women in traditionally male space. “Oh noes! A woman made a game I didn’t like. Oh noes! Our lives are so haaaarrrrrrddddd. And her ex-boyfriend says that she slept with some dude. No one wants to sleep with me, so now I’m really mad.”

            Feh.

          • Matthew William Millett

            Actually, these little angry neckbeards have got these women quitting their jobs and fleeing their homes. I think if we are going to argue whose the bigger angry victim, it would be these women, who are now complaining that a bunch of neckbeards got them running scared. I come from a militant family, somebody wants to threaten me online, I will gladly wait for them to come to my practically a bunker home and get me, I will gladly put big holes in them. If you run from a fight, you lose, its called a rout. Allowing threats to chase you from your home is ridiculous, these women should be on the same message boards/forums/game saying I’m still here, still waiting for you to come, got dozen friends and a dozen rifles waiting.

          • fiona64

            Allowing threats to chase you from your home is ridiculous

            Well, I guess that Angry Privileged White Dude has spoken and knows all …

            How is it your call to decide how much risk someone should assume to satisfy *you*?

          • Shan

            “somebody wants to threaten me online, I will gladly wait for them to come to my practically a bunker home and get me”

            That’s nice for you if you don’t have an actual life. You know, one that involves ever having to leave the house.

          • Matthew Lane

            “Actually, these little angry neckbeards have got these women quitting their jobs and fleeing their homes”

            Oh yes, which women exactly. Because its not Anita Sarkeesian, nor Zoe Quinn since neither one of them left their home or quit their jobs. So who exactly are these women to whom you refer.

          • nm

            oh shut the fuck up. professional victim? women who are threatened are ACTUAL victims. sure when it comes to online threats only a handful may actually be physically harmed from it, but HARASSMENT is not a victimless crime. violence isn’t just physical, it’s also emotional. it’s striking fear. these guys are essentially terrorists.

            you wang.

          • Shan

            God, I hate the term “professional victim”!

          • Matthew Lane

            Not as much as the rest of us hate professional victims.

          • Matthew Lane

            “oh shut the fuck up. professional victim? women who are threatened are ACTUAL victims.”

            As are the men who are threatened, but only a professional victim turns that into a source of income by constantly parading around their supposed victim status for commercial profit.

            “sure when it comes to online threats only a handful may actually be physically harmed from it”

            A handful huh, name me one instance.

          • Matthew William Millett

            buy a gun, motion detectors, and when they come into your house, kill them, put a kitchen knife in their hands after they die if they were unarmed just so you don’t have to make up any story about fearing for your life, then call the police, zero questions will be asked

          • Shan

            And in the meantime? Never leave the house to go to your job or to the grocery store or take your kids to school? Stop your life and wait for the perfect moment to (legally) kill your would-be attacker? And then what? If you’ve been doxxed, who knows how many OTHERS out there have your address?

            Yeah, no. As someone already pointed out, that’s how the terrorists win.

          • fiona64

            Someone needs to stop pretending that first-person shooter video games are real …

          • alternatesteve2

            And, Ian, let us all hope that none of these nasty, assholish threats ever *do* come to fruition…..=(

          • http://sophomorecritic.blogspot.com/ SunnyDandThePurpleStuff

            listen, being a feminist doesn’t mean you should hate on any guy commenting in response to you.what’s your problem? You’re not preaching the world is round, you have a strong political opinion about something and yes, you gotta defend what you say if you want to open up a dialogue. It’s not misogynistic to ask you to have a civil discussion

          • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

            THE. CITATIONS. ARE. IN. THE. ARTICLE. THAT’S. WHY. WE’RE. HERE.

            You are welcome.

          • http://sophomorecritic.blogspot.com/ SunnyDandThePurpleStuff

            So stop having discussions w/people online if you have no desire to speak to people who aren’t you or closely mirror your own views?

          • Matthew Lane

            Actually its exactly your job to educate him when you are specifically called upon to back up your positive assertion with a citation.

            Otherwise I can do the same thing “All women are rapist, gold diggers, who have teeth in their vaginas according to all recent scientific studies.” At which point when you call me to provide evidence to support my claim I all caps back “It’s not my job to educate you. Your willful ignorance is neither compelling nor convincing. RUN ALONG AND READ THE INTERNET.”

            See how I that would be really shitty argumentation if I took that tact.

            In the future be ready & willing to back up any positive assertion you make…. Because someone asking you for a citation is the exact OPPOSITE of wilful ignorance.

          • fiona64

            You and your fellow travelers keep acting as if this is No Big Deal(TM) because none of the doxxed women who have received such credible threats that they abandoned their homes and employment have been raped or killed *yet.*

            Dude, you are something else.

            I realize that you are probably not catcalled on the street every damn time you leave your house, but that is reality for women. And we don’t have any way to know whether the shrieking yahoo is dangerous or not … so we kind of have to assume he is. Because he might be.

            And just a pro-tip, before you go down this road: catcalling is *not* a compliment.

          • Matthew Lane

            “You and your fellow travelers keep acting as if this is No Big Deal”

            That’s because its not a big deal, for the same reason its not a big deal when it happens to guys, who don’t blow it up into some intergalactic-transdimensional conspiracy against them….. In fact recent studies show that men get such threats MORE often than women do online, you just don’t hear them complaining about it, because its no big deal.

          • fiona64

            Your gaslighting nonsense doesn’t work, Matthew.

            In fact recent studies show that men get such threats MORE often than women do online

            Once again, a man attempts to derail discussion of women’s issues by pulling in “what about the men.” Feh.

            Cough up some of those alleged studies, Matthew. I’ll be interested to see them. Why? Because *this study* shows that men are slightly more likely to be called *names* on the Internet … but that women are *significantly more likely* to experience stalking and sexual harassment. http://www.pewinternet.org/2014/10/22/part-1-experiencing-online-harassment/

            You know, like the kind of shit GamerGate pulls.

            You’re welcome.

          • variable

            Oh, oh, oh! Is this sea lioning? Does making a pointless and unnecessary demand for widely available information count as Sea Lioning or is this an offshoot of concern trolling?

          • fiona64

            I had to look that up … and thus learned something new. Thank you!

          • catseye

            It’s a standard tactic of MRA trolls, and when you tell them it’s posted 100 other places in the thread, they’re all “Oh, you can’t support your statement.” That tactic was actually developed and perfected by Bill O’Reilly clear back in the late ’80’s/early ’90’s.

        • Sarah Jenson

          Enough? What have you had enough of? People talking about how it’s difficult to deal with internet trolls? People wishing that other people are safe? What part of this is emphatically wrong enough to prompt the response “No. Enough”

        • aleksthegreat

          What’s difficult for you to understand about not making the world a police state because of your feelings?

          • Shan

            What police state tactics are being suggested and who is suggesting them?

          • catseye

            You mean like the MRA’s are TRYING to do?

          • http://www.blackmarketwitch.com/ Brookman

            Aw. If only you could see that *your* feelings are what compelled you to write this fussy little comment.

            You realize they have no bearing on reality much like the rest of you impotent existence?

            If I mail you a threat, it’s a felony. If I electronically mail you a threat, is that less serious just because the chances that you will ever leave your basement are fairly slim? No. A threat of violence is a threat o violence. I rest my case.

            Run along and play with your toys and leave the big kid words like “police state” to people who lknow what it means.

      • http://mediajunkie.com/ xian

        that whooshing sound you hear is the point if this post article going over your head

      • Sally Strange

        The only way to win is to ignore them

        The only way to win is for assholes like you to stop pretending that ignoring them works. The only way to win is for them to stop doing it in the first place.

        • catseye

          There are very few more specious bits of BS than the old, “Ignore bullies; they’ll go away.” That bromide HAS NEVER, AND _WILL_ NEVER be true. The only way to get a bully to leave you alone is to make hamburger out of it. (From a survivor.)

    • Matthew Lane

      Congrats, now you know what its like dealing with feminists.

  • Freethinker01

    Congrats, you used the f-bomb 7 times. You’ve reached full equality with knuckle-dragging men.

    • Jennifer Starr

      Do you have an actual point?

      • Freethinker01

        I did, but my important point was censored by the masses. I guess it hurt someone’s feelings.

        Tough to have dialog when competing opinions are simply wiped away.

        • Shan

          The “masses” can’t remove posts.

          • Freethinker01

            O.k., Shan. Thanks for pointing that out. Apparently I hurt someone’s feelings. Perhaps the page’s owner?

          • Shan

            Don’t get too excited over the idea that you’re being censored here. There’s a new mod who seems to be delete-happy even when it’s posts by regulars who have been here for years. We lost at least one of them over it.

    • Arekushieru

      Also, swearing? Has nothing to do with equality. Move along, sweetie. Nothing to see, here.

      • Freethinker01

        Why do you use sexist, degrading language like “sweetie”?

    • fiona64

      Oh, look! Someone who wants to tone-police the “little ladies.”

      Fuck that.

      • NotoriousPAT

        Well, this article is about policing the words of men, so it’s only fair.

        • fiona64

          No, it isn’t about “policing the words of men.” However, I am not at all surprised that you missed the point.

      • Freethinker01

        Censor censor censor.

        You know darn well that the comment was a condemnation of male potty mouths as well as female potty mouths. You chose to see sexism.

        Male or female, a person comes off as unintelligent when he/she has to use 7 F-bombs to express himself/herself.

        • fiona64

          No, it wasn’t. It was a man telling women how to talk about women’s issues. And you know “darn” well that that is the case.

          • Freethinker01

            No, it was a human being pointing out that people who have potty mouths–male or female–look, well…unintelligent, crass, crude, and undisciplined.

            Again, you chose to see sexism because sexism defines your purpose and your identity.

            Seriously–Consider cleaning up your speech. Your message would be more effective and more receptive to a much wider audience.

          • fiona64

            Seriously–Consider cleaning up your speech.

            Seriously — consider fucking yourself. Because you don’t get to make decisions about what words anyone uses.

          • Freethinker01

            Well, of course we do, Fiona. Society decides all the time which words are acceptable and which are not. For example, someone decided that my words (and the associated ideas) weren’t acceptable, and censored me. Likewise, there are all kinds of words I can’t use without social consequence. If I, for example, threw some female genitalia words at you, I’d probably get censored again. (Of course, I wouldn’t do that because I think it’s wrong, but you get the point.) You can most definitely continue being an abrasive potty mouth, but there are social consequences–namely, that you immediately alienate a big segment of the population. Does that really help you fulfill your movement’s goals? Your choice.

          • fiona64

            TL;DR version: women should only express themselves in ways of which “Freethinker” (and other MRAs) say they should.

            I am sure that you will learn to live with the disappointment.

          • night porter

            TL;DR version: women should only express themselves in ways of which “Freethinker” (and other MRAs), AND RHRC MODS say they should.

          • fiona64

            Oh, right. I guess i forgot about Stacey-the-Intern for a minute there.

            I actually feel kind of sorry for her at this point … that young woman is in way over her head.

          • night porter

            Yeah. I mean, being completely new here, I do think that she is rather clueless about the ‘flavour’ of commentary here, and at the same time, she does have a TOS which she has ostensibly been hired to enforce.

            Do you go strictly by the rules? Or do you keep your commentariat happy, who have become accustomed to behaving in a certain way, specifically in response to rude, disrespectful trolls.

          • Shan

            “the ‘flavour’ of commentary here,”

            Yes, it’s kind of…salty sometimes. ;-)

          • night porter

            The problem is, 99% of the anti choicers who visit here do not argue in good faith. People lose patience.

  • Timothy Wilkerson
  • slsdlksfj

    Well, excuse me for not incessantly policing the thoughts of everyone I know to insure that they don’t express anything offensive to women. I forgot that it was my responsibility to make sure everyone behaves like gentlemen. It isn’t “men’s” fault that a few jerk gamers on the internet are scaring you with empty threats.

    • Arekushieru

      Sorry, but when the majority of the attackers are cishet white dudes speaking against women and minority voices and the ethics in journalism card is just that, a card, because it has proven to be untruthful, for one, and simply given men a(NOTHER) legitimate platform from which to attack and harass women, I have to ask why you’re MORE concerned about being offensive to men, rather than your peers being offensive to women? Sorry… but you ARE… a misogynist. Buh-bye.

      • slsdlksfj

        Lol, I don’t think you’re genuinely sorry. By your reckoning, because most of the offensive idiots harassing you online are white males (btw, how can you know what race and gender anyone on the internet really is?) then the blame should fall on all white males? Well, I don’t remember signing up to act like Jesus and die for everyone else’s sins. It’s not my responsibility to turn my life into a crusade to help women feel safe online. If you want to do that, more power to you, but I’ll just continue to live my life for my benefit and be polite to everyone.

    • fiona64

      It isn’t “men’s” fault that a few jerk gamers on the internet are scaring you with empty threats.

      And what makes you so sure that the threats are “empty”?

      I’m serious.

      And dudebro? If you’re not telling those “jerk gamers” to knock it off, you’re part of the problem.

      Which is, you know, the whole point of the article.

      • slsdlksfj

        What makes me so sure that the threats of rape and murder are empty is because they’re happening over the internet, where all threats of rape and murder are empty. If you’re receiving credible threats, then call the police.

        If being “part of the problem” to you means that I’m not doing everything possible to end societal misogyny then I suppose you’re right. But I’m not actively participating in it. It’s the difference between setting a building on fire, or merely watching a building burn without running in to save everyone.

        • fiona64

          What makes me so sure that the threats of rape and murder are empty is
          because they’re happening over the internet, where all threats of rape
          and murder are empty.

          Right … because doxxing women makes all of the threats empty. Okey-dokey then.

          . But I’m not actively participating in it. It’s the difference between
          setting a building on fire, or merely watching a building burn without
          running in to save everyone.

          Are you familiar with a philosopher named Edmund Burke? One of his more famous quotes is “In order for evil to flourish, all that is required is for good men to do nothing.”

          Perhaps you are more familiar with Archbishop Desmond Tutu, who said that “If you are neutral in situations of
          injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has
          its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the
          mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.”

          I’ll just leave you with that.

          • redlemon
          • slsdlksfj

            “Right … because doxxing women makes all of the threats empty.”

            How many of those women who got “doxxed” in gamer gate actually got raped and murdered? None, right?

            I am familiar with Edmund Burke and Desmond Tutu, but I certainly don’t agree with that philosophy as applied to this article. Comparing nerds harassing girls online, or being offended by a rape joke on twitter, to the systemic oppression of South African apartheid would be laughable if it wasn’t so tragic.

            The fact is that American society has made a choice that it doesn’t agree with Burke on this point, you aren’t an accomplice to a crime just because you didn’t stop it from happening. Silence isn’t encouragement, it’s just silence.

            Also, I find it amusing that you used two quotes from men to try to make your point about feminism. Instead of making it in your own words.

          • fiona64

            How many of those women who got “doxxed” in gamer gate actually got raped and murdered? None, right?

            None, so far. Because they ::wait for it:: *left their homes and jobs because of credible threats.* They are in hiding. But who cares, right? They’re not dead or raped, so it’s all good on Planet DudeBro.

            Jesus wept, you are such a buffoon. Because no one has been raped and murdered *yet,* it’s okay with you?

            I chose to quote those philosophers to make a point, little loser boy. I am not even surprised that it went over your head.

            You are part of the problem. And don’t even pull the “other people have it worse, so shut up” bullshit. It just shows what a privileged little prick you really are.

            Go back to your mother’s basement; I hear she bought more CheezDoodles and Mountain Dew for you.

          • slsdlksfj

            Hahaha, can’t win your argument so you just pout and name call, huh? You really are the modern face of feminism.

            None of those girls are in real danger, they left their houses because they’re paranoid and because it’s good publicity for their politics.

            “other people have it worse”??? You compared being offended by a joke to a government system where you can be imprisoned in solitary confinement without a trial. That’s more like, “Some people have it bad, and others just whine about nothing.”

            You better get back to your gender studies class so you and your lesbian partner can talk about how text book authors who write the pronoun “he” are just like Stalin.

          • fiona64

            Congratulations on being part of rape culture, which you dismiss as no big deal with just about every word you write.

            Because, after all, it’s not like women being threatened with rape and murder is a problem; people in other places have it worse than that. Threats of rape and murder that are credible enough to make someone leave their home and employment are No Big Deal At All. /sarc

            I am sure it would please you to believe that I’m a lesbian, but I’m not. You’re safe though; I’m only attracted to men.

            :None of those girls are in real danger

            They are adult women, not *girls.* You’re so blind to your privilege that it’s sickening.

            Thanks for confirming my ongoing belief that MRA gamers are angry little diaper-babies who are mad that they can’t get laid. :-)

          • slsdlksfj

            LOL. I don’t know MRA gamers are. I don’t play video games, but it sounds like you have a lot of rage built up. Why don’t you just go ahead and get the surgery if it’s that infuriating to you.

          • fiona64

            Oh, sweetie. You’re very funny. I’m laughing at you, honey. Do you not know the difference between uproarious laughter and anger?

            Poor little boy. Did you miss your nap?

          • slsdlksfj

            Thanks, I do what I can (but not really, haha.)

          • Arekushieru

            And, guess what, women who are threatened have it worse than men (whether they are threatened or NOT), but, of course, you would never dare apply your own logic to yourself, now would you? Gee, whodathunkit, right?

          • variable

            “You better get back to your gender studies class so you and your lesbian partner…”

            Aaaaand he outs himself as the MRA troll he is. Get called a few names and your Reasonable Guy facade all crumble like a bunch of little boys trying to show how tough they are to the grown ups.

          • Guest

            Well, of course is sounds bad if you don’t include the punch line, you dumb bitch. The line was, “You better get back to your gender sutdies class so you and your lesbian partner can talk about how text book authors who write the pronoun “he” are just like Stalin.”

          • fiona64

            Aww. Poor angry little boy. Did mommy come down to the basement and take away your Mountain Dew again?

          • slsdlksfj

            Well, of course is sounds bad if you don’t include the punch line, you dumb bitch. The line was, “You better get back to your gender studies class so you and your lesbian partner can talk about how text book authors who write the pronoun “he” are just like Stalin.”

          • variable

            Oh that’s right, sexist jokes are just universally funny, you sad little weasel of a troll.

          • alternatesteve2

            Ad hominems aren’t fuckin’ cool, dude.

          • Gavitron

            I’m sorry, but for a Catholic to say that is about as hypocritical as it gets. I doubt the (hundreds of? thousands?) rape victims appreciate the church’s neutrality. I don’t really disagree with any of your points, but I just couldn’t let that slide.

        • Erica_JS

          ALL threats delivered over the internet are empty? And you know this how?? Ask anyone in law enforcement and they will tell you otherwise, especially when it comes to posting someone’s personal details that they may be trying to conceal from a real life abuser or stalker.

          • fiona64

            Erica, how dare you question him! He knows everything about, well, everything. /sarc

          • slsdlksfj

            fiona is right, I know everything and you have no right to question me. /no sarc

        • variable

          “What makes me so sure that the threats of rape and murder are empty is because they’re happening over the internet”

          Stop. Just stop. You’ve lost all credibility.

          Really, you’re just embarrassing yourself now.

    • lady_black

      All that’s necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. If you see something, say something. Call it “man training” and consider it a mitzvah. Guys who do this need to know other guys think it’s not cool.

  • Dorian Douma

    It’s brutal in gaming. You have this minority (I hope) of loser guys who wreck it for the rest of us by repelling everyone and we don’t know how to stand up to them because ffs no we do not have these bullies as friends. Sometimes it happens and in those cases, and as I have confirmed with my fellow niceguy collaborators, it’s often possible to stage a successful intervention. But usually the loser guy just gets bumped from all his niceguy friends’ circles and so you get this separation in the male population… and seriously… we do not know how to intervene on these crazy dudes especially when they’re all ganged up and it doesn’t matter how straight and white and male I am, they will bully me too, so that’s the problem.

    • Dorian Douma

      I play Project Reality, which is a wargame. I’m determined to stand up for universal accessibility and to support anyone who’s being harassed, and I’m not the only one.

      • Arekushieru

        Dorian, THANK you for being one of the men who actually GETS the freaking point!

      • Jennifer Starr

        Thank you for doing that–believe me, it’s much appreciated.

      • alternatesteve2

        Please, Dorian, keep doing that. =)

    • ocker3

      I agree, when people are excluded for any reason other than their own negative personal behaviour, it reduces the size of the playerbase and that’s a loss for all of us

      • Dorian Douma

        Yeah totally and especially in a small community mod like project reality, which suffers from a total lack of gender diversity, you’d think people would be less tolerant to anything that makes people feel unwelcome.

        • Dorian Douma

          also just the idea that you wouldn’t want women around… like… that’s anti-me… I hate when I find something I like and find it to be a total sausagefest, which has been the same thing with electronic music, it’s so sad

          • nm

            do you think it’s a group mentality thing? because i’m willing to bet 99% of the dudes, when out by themselves in the real world, would lose their shit if a girl even glanced in their general direction. these are the same people that complain that girls don’t like them, gee wonder why….

      • alternatesteve2

        Makes sense to me, TBH, pretty much regardless of the game(I used to be a pretty avid GTA V player for a while. I think my first online friend might have been female, btw. Which is cool. =) )

  • StepYourMind

    As a matter of fact, yes, I do call out my friends (and also people who are not my friends) on abhorrent behavior when I see it. I also find GamerGate a reeking shithole. Every threat of murder or rape of maiming is awful. And so is doxxing, both threatened and carried out.

    As for your tone, fuck you too. Yes, there are single ones among us who tell our “bros” (I call those people friends, by the way, because not every single fcking one of us is by default a douche who wears his cap backwards and keeps his sunglasses on at all times) about awful behavior. Yes, I tell people sexual abuse is not a punch line. When was the last time? How about last night? I think that’s pretty close.

    I get you’re angry, but what’s the point of first identifying “good guys” and skip eight paragraphs and call it “your problem, you fix it” addressing the male population as a whole? It’s actually not my problem. It’s their problem. But they are not going to fix it and I think it’s appaling so I say something about it.

    So yes, I think men have a role to play in battling sexism, but the way you bring it, all I can think is: “Well, I also have other stuff to do where people don’t call my house a man-cave and don’t reduce my conversations to nonsens gibberish about guns and razors.” Go and be angry at the douches, but in a blog post where you specifically want to call the “good guys” to action, maybe you shouldn’t address them like this.

    If however, your purpose was really to just vent some anger and please other angry women: well done. The comments tell me you did a great job.

    • fiona64

      Someone took a lot of time to write what amounted to “I’m not that guy” …

      • StepYourMind

        Thank you for that amazing tl;dr

        • fiona64

          Oh, no. I read it. You seem to be taking a lot of umbrage at something that, allegedly, isn’t about you at all. Why is that?

          • StepYourMind

            I’m not sure as to how that is not clear from the post for which I took a lot of time?

          • fiona64

            Oh, no. It’s very clear. It was all best summed up as “I’m not that guy.”

            It was positively Shakespearean, the way you protested so much …

          • StepYourMind

            Perhaps I wouldn’t have been so inspired if the original post had been: “I wish more guys would try their best at telling other guys to not be sexist assholes.” In that scenario, I think I wouldn’t have commented at all. I guess we’d all feel better then.

          • Arekushieru

            Yeah, perhaps it would have been better to not respond, at all, rather than attempting to mansplain you’re way through this. You are tone-trolling, which is a common tactic for abusers. Speak to me respectfully, for I am male. Speak to me as if I do not benefit from this privilege that allows others to abuse women and other minority voices with impunity, for I am male. Do you get it, now?

          • StepYourMind

            No, not really. I never made that argument. I concede that it is the tone of the article that I disagree with, though I wouldn’t call it trolling. Matter of perspective, I guess.

            I also concede that my comment was voiced angrily, albeit in response to an angry article, and that it would have been better to wait a while, let it settle, and comment in a more tranquil tone (and less lengthy).

            But I’m not sure why I deserved to be grouped with “abusers” now. Is it abusive to ask for a respectful tone?

          • Unicorn Farm

            It’s called “tone-policing” and yes it’s a dick move.

          • StepYourMind

            I googled it, and I wasn’t aware that this was a thing. I didn’t agree at first, but further reading was sort of an eye opener, realizing that sometimes, I’m really really angry, too, and that it’s not-cool if people downplay that. So, I apologize for my first comment. I also understand where Arekushieru’s attack came from now.

            Thanks for naming it, Unicorn Farm. Was able to learn something today.

          • fiona64

            And you know what? I honestly thank you for being willing to do so.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Thanks for saying this, and I appreciate that you were open minded enough to continue reading and learn something. Many of the people who are regulars on this site are very well-versed in the issues we’re speaking about and that includes analysis of *how* the issues are discussed. People aren’t just railing at you for the fun of it- there’s reasons.
            There are a lot of subtle phenomena like tone-policing that many people aren’t aware of. Doing more reading and listening than writing and talking, and continuing to be open minded, is a good way to learn to recognize them.

          • Sarah Jenson

            There’s tone policing, and then there’s asking to not be portrayed as an ignorant savage. I’m not even a dude and I got kind of offended by this

          • Unicorn Farm

            Look around this thread. BEHOLD! Dudes behaving like ignorant savages, and I’ve been having these conversations for *years*. I don’t know who you are but I certainly don’t need any flack from you about calling out tone-trolling. Got it?
            BTW, the OP began his post to the author with “fuck you!” -hardly asking not to be portrayed as an ignorant savage- and then later even acknowledged I was correct re; tone policing.

          • variable

            Actually, I’m pretty sure you’re a dude.

          • catseye

            Claims to be a transwoman, but unwilling to give up male privilege. Wants it both ways.

          • http://mediajunkie.com/ xian

            you’re not even not a dude

          • GregWal

            If you don’t want people to speak in respectful tones then look forward to men, regular men, pushing back and your concern never being listened to.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Nope. You don’t get to treat women like shit, and then when they get angry about being treated like shit, choose not to listen to them because they are speaking harshly at you- because you treated them like shit.

          • http://mediajunkie.com/ xian

            sounds like a threat. a limp, ahistorical, whiny threat.

          • Arekushieru

            It is when you direct your response at a group that is often called on to be just that in the face of whatever attack they may be facing. But, this particular post was very respectful, so I mean my first statement in the kindest way possible even if it may not seem that way. I’m sorry, I just have difficulty interpreting non-verbal language, in both writing and speech, and within others and myself. So, sorry if that is what happened. :)

          • http://mediajunkie.com/ xian

            non-verbal written language? what?

          • http://mediajunkie.com/ xian

            your concern is noted

          • http://mediajunkie.com/ xian

            “if the shoe fits, wear it”

          • catseye

            The foo only shits when the foo is full of shit. <|;-P

    • Unicorn Farm

      If you’d wanted to save yourself time, you could have just wrote
      #notallmen. The internet just LOVES this phrase right now. #superhip #chicsocialjusticecommentary #biteme
      But then you wouldn’t have gotten to indulge us all with this nice screed of tone-policing.

      • StepYourMind

        That does sounds like it’ll save a lot of time. Thank you :)

        Cool name, btw

    • NotoriousPAT

      “I also find GamerGate a reeking shithole. Every threat of murder or rape of maiming is awful”

      Are you saying a GamerGate member has made threats of murder or rape? If so, which ones, exactly?

    • variable

      #notallmen, whiiine!

    • http://mediajunkie.com/ xian

      #notallmen

    • nm

      >I think men have a role to play in battling sexism,

      Great!

      >but the way you bring it

      There it is. SOMETHING, anything, to tell a woman to shut up.

      >If however, your purpose was really to just vent some anger and please other angry women

      Lol so what if it even was? Newsflash: not everything a woman does has to please men. JFC. It’s like if your penis isn’t being coddled at all times the world will stop spinning. “Boo hoo she called me a bro cuz of my penis, but I’m sooo nice!” You’re literally another example of how far feminism still has to go, no matter how much of an ally you think you are.

      >The comments tell me you did a great job.

      Is this your first feminist article comment thread? It doesn’t matter what “tone” the author used, it doesn’t matter if she vehemently said “NOT ALL MEN!!!”, it doesn’t matter if she talked at length about how much she loves sucking dick and making sandwiches, if an article says even one thing about changing up male behavior, the beards/MRAs WILL come out in full force, like they have a goddamn google alert or something.

      *edit: I just now read your comment below re: justifiable anger. so, kudos.

  • J100409

    I wonder how many people cheering for this article would decry it is the same argument used here for “cis gender dudes” were used for “Islam.” Conversely, I wonder how many people on some other site cheering for the article that is using the same argument for Islam as is used here for guys would be infuriated by this article.

    • fiona64

      You’re right; cisgender dudes are very much oppressed. Why, they are hardly in charge of *anything* these days! For example, they are hardly represented *at all* in US government. /snark

      • J100409

        I re-read my post a few times to try to figure out how I might have implied that cisgender dudes are oppressed, but I couldn’t find it. What made you think I was saying that?

        • fiona64

          Well, you seem to be saying that cisgendered white dudes are being treated as though they are the victims of Islamophobia.

          Which, you know, makes exactly zero sense to me.

          • J100409

            The logic of this article is:
            1. Members of Group A are behaving badly on a large scale.
            2. Many members of Group A think it is sufficient to qualify as “Good As/decent human beings” by not participating in this behavior without condemning such behavior in their friends and acquaintances and taking a public stance against it.
            3. Those who think not doing it themselves are wrong. They must also actively intervene to police the other Members of Group A in order to be decent human beings.
            Right now, on this site, there are people cheering this article which uses “cisgender dudes” for Group A. Some of these people would be offended by an article which used “Muslims” for Group A. Meanwhile, on some site with a different political bent, there are probably people cheering for an article which uses “Muslims” for Group A but would be offended by this article which uses “cisgender dudes” for Group A

          • fiona64

            Those who think not doing it themselves are wrong. They must also
            actively intervene to police the other Members of Group A in order to be
            decent human beings.

            No, that’s really not it.

            The point being made is that silence is viewed as assent/consent. Let’s pretend for a moment that I am one of your male buddies and the two of us are waiting for a bus. A woman walks by, and you remark (loudly) on her appearance. You may have yelled “Hey, hot mama! Shake it this way!) or “Hey, ugly witch; you need to go hide.” It doesn’t matter which … the first is not a compliment, in case you are unclear. In either event, you have remarked on the woman’s body as though it is public property on which you have the Right to Remark.

            I can sit there silently and you will (I guarantee it) think that your behavior was fine. Or, I can say, “Hey, bud. That was not cool.” In which case you know I think otherwise.

            Does that clarify for you?

            Although, frankly, if you are the sort of person who routinely behaves in the manner I described, I would not want to be your friend anyway.

          • J100409

            The author’s argument could be restated more softly as “Those who neither participate nor condone are implicitly supporting the behavior. ” That’s really beside the point I am making.
            My point is that there will be many people who will judge the argument on the basis of the identity of “Group A” and nothing else.

          • fiona64

            The author’s argument could be restated more softly

            Oh, so when women speak/write about matters of social justice, they’re supposed to state things “softly.” Now I understand.

          • Shan

            Let me put a pillow on your desk before you start hitting it repeatedly with your head.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “The author’s argument could be restated more softly”

            can’t have these bitches getting uppity, now can we.

            I think I need a break from this site for a few days.

          • fiona64

            I was thinking the same thing just this morning (re: break from this site). We’re going to be moderated for calling someone an idiot, while posts that call us sluts, murders, etc., and support rape (i.e., the MRAs) remain? I … yeah.

          • fiona64

            I definitely need a break from SPL; StarSeed is so stupid that she makes me want to pop her head like a grape. And, as you know, I am NOT easily moved to that kind of frustration.

          • night porter

            Just ignore her. I mostly have been, because she’s a moron. The other threads are more productive, the people aren’t as bindingly idiotic.

            I really think that she is threatened by the fact, as you pointed out, that other women might *dare* to choose a different path than her. This really upsets her, hence the massive strawmen, and the insistence that abortion is more dangerous than pregnancy.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Hahhaa, I lol’d at ‘pop her head like a grape.’
            It’s probably good for my mental heath that I can only actually see the SPL comments on my dinosaur laptop that I rarely fire up, and thus can’t easily get to them from work or my ipad. I admire all of you guys for your patience and Sisyphean dedication to stamping out the idiocy.
            After a while I find it extremely emotionally draining to absorb all that misogyny.

          • NotoriousPAT

            I do not think you quite understood the comment you replied to. “Could be” is in no way, shape, or form the same as “should be” or “supposed to be.”

          • Arekushieru

            In this case, it is so minute as to make no difference at all. That’s the point you and he seem to be missing.

          • fiona64

            Oh, yeah … in this case it most definitely is the same. What is the point of saying that it “could be stated more softly” otherwise?

          • Arekushieru

            Well, yes, that’s generally what happens when all of you share in the same privilege that makes some of your group bully others who are less privileged. Telling men to call out their similar-privileged buddies is only fair, especially when other commenters make it clear that they’ll only listen to those who are less-privileged than they if they ACKNOWLEDGE that they, themselves, are less privileged, and the one they are speaking to is more privileged. Kthxbainow.

          • Erica_JS

            Well, count me in for thinking EVERYONE has a moral responsibility to call out awful behavior from whatever group they’re a part of. Not necessarily by going out and picking fights or jumping on every stray comment, but if a fellow atheist is consistently saying hateful things about Christians, or another woman is consistently saying sexist things about men, I will call them on it. I do think it is simply the decent thing to do.

          • Arekushieru

            Um, you do realize you are comparing apples and oranges, right? Muslims are an oppressed group. Cishet white dudes are not. Muslim WOMEN are an oppressed group under Muslim male control. But that’s not what you were comparing. Perhaps THAT might give you an idea as to why your ‘premise’ is problematic.

            As for the rest, read what I’ve said, below.

          • J100409

            If the argument is good if Group A is not an oppressed group, but bad if Group A is an oppressed group, why is that? Is an oppressed group freed from moral responsibility by its oppression? Should an oppressed group be immunized from moral criticism from outside?
            If so, does that mean that this whole argument only applies to cishet white dudes? Why not only wealthy cishet white dudes? Why not only native-born, mainline Protestant, college educated, wealthy cishet white dudes?
            All of that aside, if a group is an oppressed minority in some places and an oppressive majority in others, does that mean it should be insulated from criticism everywhere on the basis of its oppression?

          • kest

            Because the oppression is part of the problem. When you are part of a privileged group, and someone near you is all *oppress oppress*, staying silent is pretty much the same as being ‘wooo, oppression!’ Not that angry hateful comments by other members in a oppressed group should be ignored, but they don’t have quite the same effect on their targets because they have less social power. Nor do I agree that Muslims are necessarily an oppressed group – in the US, yes, but if you made an argument that Taliban members should talk to their fellow Taliban members about not being such raging assholes, I don’t think you’d find much disagreement here, although maybe some skepticism as to its likely success rate.

          • Anji Yukyuzan

            Sir what you just described is righteousness and that is my biggest problem with many of these issues. Wrong is wrong irrespective of circumstance.

          • Arekushieru

            Uh, sorry, but white folk are not as oppressed as Muslim or Asian or African folk. White people are not nearly as oppressed in other countries as Muslim, Asian or African folk are oppressed in white-dominated countries. We can also divide Western, Eastern and African countries into different levels of oppression, respectively, after all.

            Basically, you’re asking why someone shorter than another person shouldn’t be happy that they both got stools of the same height. OR why someone who is poorer than another person shouldn’t be happy that both of them got the same amount of money. So, YOU tell ME why they shouldn’t be free from being criticized for raising complaints about being treated unequally. That IS the question, here. DO try to stay on topic, for ONCE. I can see why you’re so bewildered, now, though.

          • J100409

            Rather than respond to your analysis of all the points I did not make, I will tell a story.
            Two people were talking about what color a shirt was. A third person came along and said “that not a red shirt, that’s a cotton shirt.” The person who started the conversation said “I don’t care what material the shirt is, I’m talking about the color of the shirt,” and then went back to talking about the color of the shirt. The third person responds, “I don’t see how you can say that the shirt is red when it is clearly cotton.” The first person responds, “What does that have to do with anything, and besides, red shirts can be wool or cotton.” The third person responds “The shirt is clearly cotton. DO try to stay on topic, for ONCE.”

    • A. T.

      We would be just as upset if people were threatening death or to Muslims. ;)

    • alternatesteve2

      Um, dude, what does Islam have to do with this, exactly? =

      • J100409

        I had recently read several articles in which Muslim commentators or spokespeople for Islamic organizations had complained that it was unfair to expect them to make statements condemning various violent actions and pro-violence statements of other Muslim groups or commentators. Commenters (who generally seemed to have a left political orientation) wrote in to say how strongly they agreed. Other commenters (who generally seemed to have a right political orientation) wrote in to say how strongly they disagreed. Many of the arguments that the lefties used for why the Muslim commentators have no responsibility to take action on those articles are being recycled by commenters here (who seem to be righties) for why men have no such responsibility. Meanwhile, many of the arguments used by the righties on those sites for why there is a responsibility there are being used by people who seem like lefties here.
        Very few people seem to see a problem with reaching opposite moral judgments on two situations for which they cannot actually explain the significance of any differences.

  • Tyler

    Some of those lines seem like a quick route to having no guy ever want to hang around you. I will say that there’s better approaches I can think of immediately. First off, we’re guys, we’re privileged, we think our opinions are the best ever and we bring them up a lot. When political and social opinions come into play and hit on misogyny related topics, don’t be a coward afraid to be called politically correct. When a rape joke is made, say, “Not cool, man.” If he makes a fuss, say why. Misogyny is so ubiquitous that the confrontational “if you make rape jokes, you’re not my friend anymore” will make you unpopular very fast. Nobody will take your side. The best you can do is call people out on that and hope that it doesn’t cause too much fallout.

    Now, for some things, I think it is appropriate to say certain behaviours will revoke your friendship. Actual rape and abuse are among them. Threats of such things also. Serious harassment like groping, stalking or relentless x-shaming as well. But for pig-headed remarks, guys will say freedom of speech and everyone will defend them if you say you’re not going to be their friends anymore, you find yourself friendless and alone, then you’re back at square one.

    • fiona64

      So, to sum up, popularity is more important to you than social justice?

      And no, threatening rape, cat-calling, etc., is not “freedom of speech.” It is, in fact, hate speech … which is not protected. Furthermore, freedom of speech applies to the *govenrment.* The government is not going to haul you away for saying idiotic things, in other words. However, freedom of speech does not include freedom from disagreement or freedom from consequences.

      Maybe you need a new crowd of friends.

    • Tyler

      Correction, no non-feminist guy (the guys you want to reach) will ever want to hang out with you if you use these lines.

      • A. T.

        So, why not use ‘not cool, man’ or whatever version?

        • alternatesteve2

          Good point. I don’t think I could be friends with any dude who makes rape jokes myself.

    • Unicorn Farm

      I’m so glad that you can wrap yourself up in your cozy blanket of male privilege and let rape jokes just slide because you don’t want to lose your friends.

      “[racism] is so ubiquitous that the confrontational “if you make [slavery] jokes, you’re not my friend anymore” will make you unpopular very fast. Nobody will take your side. The best you can do is call people out on that and hope that it doesn’t cause too much fallout.” <— does this sentence still sound OK to you? I only changed two words.

      How bad does the rape and abuse have to be before you're willing to lose one of your bros over it?

      You also don't really seem to be aware of what freedom of speech actually means (hint: it protects people from government interference with speech, not some nasty old hag feminist ruining your punch line).

      "But for pig-headed remarks, guys will say freedom of speech and everyone will defend them if you say you're not going to be their friends anymore, you find yourself friendless and alone, then you're back at square one."

      Boo hoo. Maybe your tune would change if you were forced to listen to disparaging and degrading remarks by your so-called friends that made light of real suffering that you faced. You know who I don't want to be friends with? An a**hole who makes "pig headed remarks" that show he doesn't feel I'm a full human being.
      "

    • lady_black

      Why would you even want to be friends with pigs like that?

    • fiona64

      Nice job of editing your post after being called out on your bullshit, Tyler.

  • night porter

    I tend to avoid the threads with the MRAs because the idiocy is kind of overwhelming. Just sayin’.

    • catseye

      It’s like the scene in “The Hunger Games” with the tracker-jacker wasps, only they’re the ones hallucinating.

      • night porter

        I still have to see the movies, and read the books. I am behind the times.

        • fiona64

          I just read the whole lot of them. IMO, “Mockingjay” (the last one) is actually the best.

  • coffee breath

    Shitty that this had to be written. Thank you for doing so.

  • NotoriousPAT

    “When’s the last time you heard a dude making a rape joke or saw your buddy harassing a woman on the street”

    Never.

    • Shan

      You forgot the rest of the question.

      “When’s the last time you heard a dude making a rape joke or saw your
      buddy harassing a woman on the street, and you actually fucking said
      something to him about how gross that is?”

      If that was “never” what’s your point?

      • fiona64

        He’s probably the dude harassing women on the street.

  • redwolf68

    Absolutely agree with all of this. And I’d bet you dollars to doughnuts that some of these psycho fuckwits who do that stupid shit are many of the same douchebags who claim to be “nice guys,” yet rank women to the dogs and back because they won’t go out with them. If I were a woman, I certainly wouldn’t, and I’d be angry enough to give them a taste of their own medicine and doxx them or report them to the FBI. Think maybe they’d get their heads put back on straight if they got a visit from the authorities? It makes you wonder.

  • Brent Lewis

    Why are you getting so aggressive towards the “cool” guys. It’s everybody’s problem. You can’t dump the responsibility for the ass holes squarely on other guys just because they’re the same gender and orientation. I would like to see them step up too, but you’re practically placing blame. I don’t think that’s a good way to get anyone involved.

    • fiona64

      Just out of curiosity, Brent, what do *you* do? I mean, are you like Tyler, above, who won’t say anything because one of his dudebro buddies might not want to hang out with him anymore? (I hope not.)

      • Brent Lewis

        I have very few friends that I spend time with, and the ones that I do aren’t dudebros.

        • fiona64

          You know, you went to a lot of trouble to write something that is completely non-responsive.

          So, I ask again: what do *you* do.

          • Brent Lewis

            I’m an eccentric software engineer and home body. This simply does not happen in my life. If it did, I’d show them a couple recently viral videos.

          • fiona64

            Well, I suppose that’s fair enough.

  • Cringeworthy

    I agree with what’s being said here – but does being a femininst ALWAYS mean trotting out male stereotypes? “I don’t know what you bros do in your little man caves besides talk about razors and guns and farts…” is as sexist and derogatory as me saying “I don’t know what you gals do when you go to your little feminist coffeehouse meetings besides talk about shoes and tampons and hairstyles.”

    • Decimal

      Yes it does mean exactly that. And that is why this method has proven completely ineffective.

  • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

    Men with the tendency to say “show me some statistics.” It is no one else’s job to educate you. This article is an impetus for you to realize how widespread this is. Choosing to remain ignorant because no woman has gone out of her way to “show” you personally is no excuse, nor is it proof that this is not a common occurrence. For many of you, it’s likely the reason you have not heard a first hand account of this experience from a woman is because….well…you probably don’t speak to women frequently OR women you speak with do not feel comfortable being candid with you. Wonder why that is.

    Before you ask some perfect stranger to educate you for free: LMGTFY.com

    • Ian Norton

      I asked for the statistics because I couldn’t find any that supported your claims. I’m sorry that I tried to reason with you.

      • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

        And *I’m* sorry that your research, analytical, and observational skills are not at par. Mine come at a premium.

        • Ian Norton

          Okay, if you don’t want to convince me, that’s fine. Anyone with basic reasoning skills might deduce that the reason you won’t provide any evidence is because you don’t have any evidence, though. The burden of proof is on you.

          • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

            LOL. No. it’s because I’m too busy making money to donate my skillset to your basic mind and your starving need for female attention.

          • Ian Norton

            Only your argument matters, not the gender of the person making it.

          • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

            oh? Then prove to me that this experience isn’t common. Better yet, prove that it doesn’t exist.

            I’m waiting.

          • Ian Norton

            What experience? Online harassment?

          • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

            You can engage my consultancy if you’d like to be mathematically “convinced.” IF the analysis isn’t worth dollars to you, It’s not worth my time making it.

            <3.

          • Ian Norton

            I’m just asking you to back up your claims because I’m skeptical by nature. I don’t think anyone should accept an idea without evidence, and certainly not ideas that contradict the evidence.

            If you don’t have the time to show evidence, I understand, but until then I ask that you accept my skepticism.

          • variable

            Actually you’re asking her to back up her claims because you’re a douchebag who is trolling her. Numerous people have posted links backing up Jessica’s statements, which are absurdly easy to source.

            I can only infer that you are deliberately ignoring the numerous sources available to you to deliberately harass the person who called you out for being ignorant of something that is widely reported and generally acknowledged.

            So cut it out. Seriously, if you really want the facts put up and read the links. Otherwise it’s time to shut the heck up already.

          • http://mediajunkie.com/ xian

            why should anyone care about your skepticism?

          • fiona64

            Do you really not know the frequency of on-line harassment? REALLY? Here are 3 million links to choose from. https://www.google.com/search?q=frequency+of+on-line+harassment&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb

            And then there’s the frequency of *street harassment* women face: http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/about/what-is-street-harassment/

            Look, I get it. It must be So Hard(TM) to be a white male in a country where white males are the most privileged people. And to have some uppity women try to enter your gaming space? Wow, that must really suck.

            But your ignorance of these realities does not negate the existence of these realities.

            You’re welcome.

          • Ian Norton

            Oh no, I was asking her to clarify. Wasn’t doubting the existence nor the frequency of online harassment.

          • GregWal

            Okay. 90 per cent of women say they’ve never been harassed. Now you find those numbers for me, and know that I will be holding that up as a fact, whether it’s fictional or not, for the rest of the argument.

            Two can play this game.

          • fiona64

            Okay. 90 per cent of women say they’ve never been harassed. Now you find those numbers for me,

            Oh, sweetie. You really have no idea.

            I am fully aware that you made up the number to be an ass … but when you are the one making an affirmative claim like “90 percent of women say they’ve never been harassed,” it is incumbent on YOU to back it up.

            I’ve already shared the links on the frequency of on-line and street harassment of women. However, here’s a link that is only 5 hours old. And if you’re surprised by what you see, it’s probably because you’re male. This is day-to-day life for women. http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/viral-video-documents-york-street-harassment-26568112

          • lady_black

            I saw parts of that video last night on The Ed Show. And it is day-to-day life for women.

          • fiona64

            According to another article here on RHRC, Shosanna Roberts (the woman in the video) started receiving threats of rape and other violence within *hours* of the first airing. Those threats have been reported to law enforcement.

          • Shan

            There’s another video:

            “Here’s what it looks like when a man gets catcalled”

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5zU7I7NnB8w

          • fiona64

            As always, do NOT read the comments.

          • Shan

            Oh, yeah, no. Never.

          • Sarah Jenson

            Why did you not just post this link at the beginning of the conversation? It would have been a perfect response and saved everybody so much time

          • fiona64

            Why don’t you worry about your own posts and I’ll worry about mine?

          • Unicorn Farm

            Dude, who the f*** are you to come into this thread and blast everyone for how they’re handling this?

          • fiona64

            She’s Decimal’s inflate-a-date/sock puppet.

          • http://mediajunkie.com/ xian

            i suspect a pseudo-SJW gg concern troll, given the template-y language or lack of sense

          • fiona64

            Since I didn’t come into that particular conversation until I made my post, how about if you actually READ for a change and realize that I am not Jennifer?

          • http://mediajunkie.com/ xian

            why are you shaming people for not taking actions in the order and timing that you suggest? this can be very triggering for people who are insecure about whether their argumentative style meets Sarah Jenson’s standards!

          • nm

            yeah? show me all the “BUT WHAT ABOUT THE FACTS, SIR!” comments on the articles like this one that are written by dudes. Show me.

          • catseye

            It’s a sea lion. Booooooark, boooooooark!

        • Sarah Jenson

          If you’re claiming you found something, and someone wants to see it, don’t walk away saying find it yourself. You’re implying that you have found and have these statistics at hand. Why are you being so agressive instead of just sharing them?

          • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

            The sources, my dear sycophantic friend, are contained in the article on which I am commenting. Not only that, but a casual analysis of the need to write these articles alone would tell even the simplest of minds all that they need to know.

            It’s not my job to expose everyone on the Internet to a broad range of experience and information, statistical or otherwise, that would convince them of something that is literally being demonstrated in this very comment thread.

            Sorry about your brain damage.

          • catseye

            At the Bonneville Dam in Oregon, they use flash-bang grenades to scare off sea lions. We need something that would work online.

    • GregWal

      It is very much your job to educate us if you’re making claims like this. It’s called responsible journalism.

      • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

        Fuck you. Pay me. <3

        • GregWal

          I’m not asking you to do it. I wouldn’t trust your numbers anyway, you’re clearly a bigot. I’m asking the author of this piece to do it.

          • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

            LOL.

            You’re the one trolling and I’m a bigot. Ok, sweetdick.

            It doesn’t matter if you believe me, my numbers, or any other singular individual’s account. It’s the collective accounts that are undeniable.

            Luckily, men like you are outnumbered and relatively unsuccessful in the gene pool so we won’t have to worry about you for much longer. Don’t need to provide numbers for that either, because I’m sure you know exactly what I mean.

            Cheers!

          • GregWal

            I’m not trolling. I’ve posted clear and concise posts in opposition to your inane name-calling and generally unreasonable behaviour. And you can’t answer in the same. Engaging with the likes of you is generally useless, you’re about as accountable, educated and open-minded as a tea-bagger. And luckily there’s plenty of women out there who would happily provide reputable figures to make an argument and help progress the discussion.

          • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

            Your posts are based in nothing but your own opinion. When you remove your head from your ass, perhaps you’ll be able to use google with some manner of efficiency. Have a lovely day, Greg!

          • fiona64

            I’m not trolling.

            BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

          • Decimal

            From what I can see, you are the troll.

          • fiona64

            Your skanky ass just showed up at a site where I’ve been posting for years and you accuse *me* of trolling?

            Have your mom take you to the doctor to see about that cranio-rectal inversion problem of yours. Maybe on the way home she’ll stop at Circle K to get you the CheezDoodles and Mountain Dew you’ve been begging for.

          • Decimal

            That’s a great idea! I’ll do that right now!

          • Decimal

            Anyway…

            “Thanks for the fabulous mansplaining, dudebro.”
            “Why so angry, bro?”
            “BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!”
            “Your skanky ass just showed up at a site where I’ve been posting for years”

            There are many forms of trolling. But most trolling involves name-calling, and intentional inflammation of a topic. You have demonstrated that on this topic several times over. I think my assumption that you are indeed a troll was accurate.

          • fiona64

            But most trolling involves name-calling, and intentional inflammation of a topic.

            Said the angry little dudebro who refers to women as “playthings” for his “sexual conquest” and thinks that punching women is funny …

            Yeah, that’s not inflammatory at all, loser-boy.

            Go back to your mom’s basement.

          • Decimal

            I knew you wouldn’t understand. My entire rant about women being sexual playthings was to give perspective into the male psyche, the reason why they don’t listen to you and why they ignore these issues. I don’t actually feel that way. But there will be no convincing you of that because you already made up your mind.

            Oh an I’m not angry. I’m saddened for you and the struggles of your gender. Which is compounded when people try to help and all you do is say hurtful angry things. Maybe one day you can learn to love again.

          • fiona64

            My entire rant about women being sexual playthings was to give
            perspective into the male psyche, the reason why they don’t listen to
            you and why they ignore these issues. I don’t actually feel that way.

            Nice story, bro.

          • nm

            > Maybe one day you can learn to love again.

            LOL My favorite are the ones who say that real women have more love.

          • Sarah Jenson

            Why are all of you people responding by calling people fat? Why is fat shaming totally okay for you? You really need to look into intersectional feminism, because clearly whatever kind you have is not good enough

          • fiona64

            Um, skanky =/= fat. Lrn2rd, mkay?

          • Unicorn Farm

            No one is calling anyone fat.
            This isn’t fat shaming. The reference to cheesedoodles and mountain dew has more to do with him being juvenile than fat.
            I eat a bunch of cheese doodles… I’m not fat… they’re not necessarily related. You’re making a leap to harass a bunch of women who haven’t done shit all to you. Knock it off.

          • http://mediajunkie.com/ xian

            lol, pwned

          • Sarah Jenson

            Please, for the love of god, stop with the body shaming. What are you doing? Why are you doing? Stop being this way.

        • Decimal

          Your language is hurtful and threatening.

          • lady_black

            Poor baby.

          • Decimal

            So is yours. This is an article about stopping such hurtful relations between the genders. Take your hate elsewhere.

          • http://mediajunkie.com/ xian

            your concern is noted

      • http://mediajunkie.com/ xian

        is it? is there a definition of that somewhere or did you pull that out of your ass?

    • Sarah Jenson

      If I was to tell you that every day children were being kidnapped at an alarming rate, and you asked me to tell you what that rate is, that’s not you being presumptuous or asking too much. If he came up to you on the street and asked you with no context that would be one thing but people have been responding to you using adjectives like “widespread” and “epidemic” by asking you to quantify them. Beyond that, I’ve had trouble finding statistics on this so it’s very possible that they already checked and didn’t find anything and, since you are talking from the point of view of someone who does know numbers, asked you what they were. If I’m specifically talking about violence against women and a man asks me to back myself up, I do, because since I made the claims, it makes sense for me to quantify them. Why are you so mean?

      • http://mediajunkie.com/ xian

        why are you shaming people for not following your ideas of logic or tone?

      • alternatesteve2

        Good point, btw. =)

    • catseye

      They say, “Show me some statistics”, then refuse to accept anything you show them. I won’t play that stupid game with them any more.

      • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

        exactly, they win by wasting your time. hence, “fuck you. pay me.”

  • Rick Martin

    Like women NEVER say disparaging things about men. There are jerks out there, both male and female, but this article assumes that all men are jerks and rapists and have to be taught not to do it. Feminists say they want equality, but continually paint all women as victims and all men as abusers.

    • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

      Last I checked, it wasn’t very common for random female strangers to threaten physical violence or death against men simply for existing. Try again.

      • GregWal

        You’re doing it now. You’re using violent language against men for simply replying to this post.

        • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

          That isn’t violent. Unless you’re a fragile baby man. Are you?

          • Sarah Jenson

            I think “fragile baby man” is pretty aggressive language

          • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

            Because it takes an immature mind to think that my above comment is “aggressive” …

            You’re fired, Sarah. You’re thinking privileges have been revoked. You can turn them in at guest services.

          • catseye

            She won’t miss her thinking privileges; she CERTAINLY never actually uses them.

          • fiona64

            I think you have some very peculiar ideas of what constitutes aggression, given your little man-child buddy’s idea that it’s okay to beat up women who correct his grammar …

        • fiona64

          Please show the violence in Jessica’s remark (or mine, for that matter, since you leveled the same accusation against me for calling out your tone-policing). You’re behaving like an idiot.

        • lady_black

          Please post an example of this “violent language” you speak of. Pro-tip: Failure to kiss your tail won’t count.

          • GregWal

            Swearing, name calling… that’s violent language. If there’s any women out there (or men) who can direct me to a board or place where intelligent people can talk about the serious issues facing women in society in a constructive and inclusive way, please let me know.

          • Decimal

            You and me both.

          • lady_black

            Ok, now find the swearing and name-calling. Which wouldn’t be violent or aggressive anyway.

          • fiona64

            I’m sure you have no problem if your dudebro pals swear, right? Because that’s what manly men do. But little ladies need to watch their language and tone lest they upset the men. Feh.

          • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

            Perhaps if dudebros didn’t immediately post “this isn’t real” as soon as a woman writes about it, there would be.

            The problem is that some of you boys don’t like to hear the truth because you prefer your women folk to be pleasing and quiet.

            Sorry, but that fantasy is over.

          • nm

            > a board or place where intelligent people can talk about the serious issues facing women in society in a constructive and inclusive way

            probably one where men aren’t allowed in.

          • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

            The comment he replied to was “Last I checked, it wasn’t very common for random female strangers to threaten physical violence or death against men simply for existing. Try again.”

            Must be sad to be so easily threatened.

      • Rick Martin

        Men tell each other to F off and die all the time. But when it happens to women, we have gamergate and special councils set up to “protect” women from all the horrible males out there. This article is no different that telling men not to rape. It assumes that all men are predators and all women are victims. If women were as hated and preyed upon as feminists would have everyone believe, you’d all be extinct.

        • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

          There’s a difference between one man saying to another man “fuck off and die, dude” and a man saying to a woman “I found your home address and I’m coming to rape you .”

          Would you like me to demonstrate the difference to you with a large black strap on?

          • Rick Martin

            Of course, everything is worse when it happens to a woman, right? Sigh.

          • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

            No, you logical infant. What ibsaid was the *NATURE* of the threats are quite different.

            You were either not blessed with the cognitive capacity to parse them or you were too busy feeling bad for yourself to notice.

            So Let me demonstrate. If I called you a fucking genetic deficient who has a dysfunctional dick and would probably best leave the gene pool, that would be rude. Though true, I am not threatening you.

            If on the other hand, I said, “you’re a fucking waste of resources, your brain consumes valuable oxygen that is reserved for thinking human beings, and I’m going to show up at your house in (POSTS HOME ADDRESS) and gut you like a swine and then serve your internal organs to my dog while laughing at your pathetic existence and kissing in your fucking filthy corpse…

            That might be construed as a threat.

            But I’m supposed to feel bad for you, aren’t i? All these women being mean and demanding that they be able to live and use the Internet without receiving those kind of threats..

            Boo. Fucking. Hoo.

        • A. T.

          The anti-gamergate males will tell you they’ve had different experiences. My guy friends on twitter will tell you they’ve had different experiences. But don’t let nuance complicate your narrative. ;)

  • GregWal

    This piece would be more effective had it not been written in such a condescending and presumptuous tone. I’d also like to know if the author canvassed any men to ask them if they do in fact confront other men. Because I can tell you that many of us do.

    I have told drunk friends to leave women alone and taken them away. I have spoken up when I’ve heard a rape joke (which is much rarer than many would have you believe) and had other men jump in to back me up, and I’ve told strangers on the street to leave women alone.

    A lot of men do. But this piece reads like just another salvo in the feminists Vs. pricks fight that makes assumptions about a male culture the author knows nothing about.

    Instead of writing pieces in a nasty vitriol, try writing them in a thoughtful way to help bring good men into the conversation rather than offend them and cause them to move on.

    • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

      “You haven’t expressed your viewpoint in a way that pleases me therefore it must be false.”

      -The Cerebrally Limited.

      • GregWal

        I didn’t say it was false. Perhaps your reading comprehension skills need a work out. I said it is written in a way that will not make it effective.

        • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

          Pedant. Not surprised. And I don’t read your words, I read you. You are upset when beautiful women are both smarter than you and irreverent to your opinions.

          Your imminent extinction delights me. Cheers.

      • Sarah Jenson

        He never said it was false, he said it wasn’t effectively written. Jessica, literally everything you’ve posted in this thread is an aggressive oversimplification.

        • Decimal

          Thank you!

    • fiona64

      This piece would be more effective had it not been written in such a condescending and presumptuous tone.

      I’m sure we’ll all try to write about issues only in tones of which you approve from now on. /snark

      But thanks for the lengthy version of #notallmen.

      • GregWal

        Man. Honestly, what a joke. Who are you, as a woman, to tell me what men are thinking and what male culture is like?

        • fiona64

          Why so angry, bro?

          You’re right. I should have kowtowed to you a lot more. After all, it’s so hard sitting at the top of the privilege ladder. It must be downright painful. Let me bring you a hankie.

          • GregWal

            I think it’s hilarious you think I’m angry when you’re the one using aggresive and abusive language. Someone like you can’t make me angry. I’ve lived too long to allow bigots get me down. After this I’ll find a place where enlightened women want to speak about solutions and engage rather than cast aside people based on their gender. But enjoy this hate-filled bubble you’ve created. I’m sure it’ll all end well.

          • fiona64

            Thanks for proving my point so perfectly. Like I said in the first place, you’re pissed off at women for not discussing *women’s issues* in ways that you personally find acceptable.

            Learn to live with the disappointment, sweetie.

          • lady_black

            She wasn’t using any aggressive or abusive language. She was being assertive. So will I. Deal with it.

          • GregWal

            She wasn’t being assertive, she was being sarcastic and demeaning. Deal with that.

          • Shan

            She’s pissed off and frustrated. A lot of us are. Coming in here and saying “Smile! You’ll get more flies with honey than with vinegar!” isn’t going over very well, is it?

          • GregWal

            Well, I can promise you not a single man that needs to hear the sentiment of this article will hear it, because they won’t get past hate. If your aim is to change the behaviour of men, you’re doing a lousy job.

          • fiona64

            And yet you don’t want to pretend it’s about tone-policing. Heh.

          • Shan

            Hey, some change already DID happen earlier right here on this very discussion board.

          • variable

            Do me a favor and don’t speak for me, you sexist douchnozzle.

          • Shan

            That’s the same old shite. We’re nice for as long as we can stand it and then we blow up because we’re being ignored. Then you say we’re crazy bitches and its so it’s to ignore us some more. No.

          • A. T.

            Does being nice actually work? The answer is: sometimes. I’ve had individuals respond well to me. Sometimes people hear it. The trolls or truly awful sorts, though, it’s just wasted on. You can’t ‘make’ them better by being nice. It’s a trap. ._.

          • nm

            Saying men talk about farts = hate?

            JFC, it’s like if a women doesn’t repeatedly say how much she loves sucking dick and making sandwiches because men are god’s greatest gift to planet earth, she’s a man hater.

          • Shan

            “Saying men talk about farts = hate?”

            I think the author was addressing “dudes” and “bros” more than actual men. Although my man DOES talk about his poops sometimes. Only briefly, though, because I stop him and remind him that I’m not his mom so I don’t have to care about his poops, that’s what doctors are for.

          • lady_black

            Nope. She was being assertive.

          • http://mediajunkie.com/ xian

            butthurt?

        • lady_black

          Who are you to tone police?

        • Shan

          “Who are you, as a woman, to tell me what men are thinking and what male culture is like?”

          The author, and women in general, are trying to say: “This is what your MALE CULTURE is doing to us. It’s fucked up and we’re sick of it. So STOP. It’s bad for women. It’s bad for men. If you, as a man who’s all absorbed in the male culture, can recognize this, then help stop other men from perpetuating the badness.”

          It’s not that difficult.

        • variable

          Probably because most men never shut up about what they are thinking and Male Culture is the default that every woman has to grow up accommodating and adapting to.

          Do you seriously not know this? Are you aware that there are these things called books, and the Google Machine has been around for a while too.

          • Shan

            “most men never shut up about what they are thinking and Male Culture is the default that every woman has to grow up accommodating and adapting to.”

            THIS so many times.

        • nm

          because this is earth and culture is essentially man culture.

      • Sarah Jenson

        There’s tone policing and then there’s asking if you could potentially not be described as having all conversations you have reduced to “guns razors and farts.” If some article written by a dude talked about how all my female friends and I ever talked about is “tampons baking and tea” I would be just as justifiably offended as Greg was and I think you would be too.

        • fiona64

          It’s still tone policing.

        • variable

          Actually they’re both tone policing. It doesn’t matter what someone writes, if you enjoin the common practice of responding to what women say by attacking how they say it you are tone policing.

          Thanks for the mansplanation, though.

          Oh, sorry, I forgot that this sockpuppet is supposed to be female.

        • http://mediajunkie.com/ xian

          why do you insist on shaming people for their creative use of language? this can be triggering for people who are not usually allowed to speak.

    • Decimal

      I agree. Men need their own movement to show other men how to behave in an appropriate manner. We do not want or need women telling us how to behave. That will only bring out the boys in us. Although… men don’t talk about such things, we punch!

      • fiona64

        Although… men don’t talk about such things, we punch!

        Such maturity. I’m so glad you stopped by to tell us how we’re permitted to talk about women’s issues, and what you do if you don’t get your way. It was soooooo helpful.

        • Decimal

          I didn’t say anything about how you’re permitted to talk. I’m merely expressing that men don’t want to hear this stuff from women. We need to here it from other men or we will never learn.

          • lady_black

            Humor is a matter of perception. I don’t perceive punching as funny.

          • Decimal

            Humor is subjective. I found it funny. Mission accomplished.

          • lady_black

            You don’t belong here.

          • Decimal

            That’s awfully exclusionary. How do you expect gender relations to improve if only women are allowed to participate in the conversation?

          • lady_black

            I never said men don’t belong here. I said *you* don’t belong here. Nobody who thinks jokes about men punching are funny belongs here. I don’t even know what gender you are. You told me you’re a man by this comment, but that doesn’t matter.

          • Decimal

            Reading through the comments on this article I see a lot of men trying to help with what is obviously a terrible situation. I also see a lot of women who appear to be incredibly angry and frustrated. I feel humor is the best way to ease a tense situation. So I made a humorous comment. But if you were to read the sentences before my joke maybe you can gleam some meaningful insight from them instead of harping on a joke you didn’t find funny. Certainly that is your right to not find it funny. But I have as much of a right to be here as you.

          • fiona64

            So I made a humorous comment.

            Yeah. Punching. That’s a real laugh-riot.

            No love, a DV survivor

            PS: The word is “glean,” not “gleam.”

          • Decimal

            Was the DV a result of your correction his failed English?

          • fiona64

            Flagged for threatening me.

          • Decimal

            Well played, ma’am. I’m sure that made you feel better.

          • Unicorn Farm

            why would it matter? go on, explain.

          • fiona64

            This little man-child appears to think that it’s okay to hit women who correct his grammar.

          • Unicorn Farm

            It *does* appear that he thinks that. Maybe, just maybe he’ll surprise us all with a clear explication of why he chose to ask such a question.
            I swear, for a bunch of baby boys who bitch and moan about how much men supposedly hate women, they’re doing an incredibly bang-up job giving me reasons to hate them.

          • Decimal

            I suppose you meant “how much women supposedly hate men” but its cool. We all make mistakes.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Why don’t you answer my questions?

          • Decimal

            I saw no question. Just a bunch of statements.

          • Unicorn Farm

            You mocked me for a typo and yet you can’t identify a question? Sad. Oh well, we all make mistakes. My questions to you:

            “Decimal: Was the DV a result of your correction his failed English?

            Unicorn Farm: why would it matter? go on, explain.”

            and

            “Why? Why can’t men learn if they hear it from women? Why does a man have to hear it from another man?”

          • Decimal

            So I missed your earlier comment. Relax. As for the second question… I didn’t see that anywhere as a response to something I said. I may have missed that too.
            moving on…
            “why would it matter?” it wouldn’t. What I said was the most ridiculous response I could think of on the fly for why fiona claimed to not like my joke. Ridiculousness is what I do.
            And I’d like to answer your other question in a much more serious manner because of all the hate-spew going on in the comments here “Why can’t men learn if they hear it from women?” is a matter that is very important to me. So let me respond with another response as I have already tainted this one.

          • Decimal

            “Why can’t men learn if they hear it from women?” I’m going to use some words here not intended to offend members of the fairer sex, I only intend to give perspective.

            When men read an article like this all they see is some woman bitching (and for that matter, many of the comments here come off the exact same way).
            Men look up to other men. It is in our nature. We need men as positive role models to teach us how to behave properly. The more (quantity of) women tell us how we should behave the more it becomes white noise that we ignore.

            This problem of anger and violence against women is a male problem. Yes women are the victims here, but the are the victims of men. Only men can fix this problem.

            And a few more for good measure… men men men.

            (Sorry if that last sentence was not funny… I make my own humor)

          • lady_black

            Did you have a mother? Or did you spring full-grown from a pod? You have what is called “mommy issues.” Your relationship with your mother was tainted with something negative, and you project that on all women. My son was raised to respect women, and that started with me, his mother. I became his example of how to relate to women. He would never think of disrespecting women like you do.

          • Decimal

            I did sprout fully grown from a pod. How perceptive of you.
            Where did I disrespect women? I may have disrespected fiona, but she is a woman, singular. So find another example and I may apologize for my brashness.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Respond to my post above lady black’s, wherein I detail how you disrespect women.
            You also disrespect all women- not just Fiona- by mocking domestic violence.

          • Decimal

            What about men that are the victims of domestic violence? Did I disrespect them too? So am I disrespecting all humans? Where does that leave this conversation?

          • Unicorn Farm

            the last thing I feel like hearing right now is ‘wut about the menz!”
            you’ve been an equal-opportunity disrespectful person on this board, but we’ve pretty much only been talking about violence against women, so yeah, in that instance, you pretty much just disrespected women.

          • Decimal

            “I get no respect.” – Rodney Dangerfield.

          • fiona64

            Oh, yes; heaven forfend that we have a discussion of women’s issues *without* someone bringing up “what about the men”! /sarc

          • lady_black

            Either you’ve been drinking, or you are experiencing symptoms of Alzheimer’s disease, since you clearly don’t remember what you yourself have just said. Aren’t you the one who insists men have nothing to learn from women, and the message must come from a man before it means anything to you? That’s disrespectful. You also think domestic violence is an occasion for humor. That’s disrespectful. You disrespect while simultaneously denying your disrespect. That’s quite a feat. No different than the average racist.

          • fiona64

            I know, right? Because women talking about issues is “bitching” to be tuned out … but he totes respects women. Except, you know, me … who called him out on his bullshit and hurt his little man-child fee-fees.

          • Decimal

            “Aren’t you the one who insists men have nothing to learn from women” No I’m not. I never said that. Are you suffering from a lack of reading comprehension?

            “the message must come from a man before it means anything to you?” I am making a suggestion about how to positively change the attitudes of men.

            “You also think domestic violence is an occasion for humor.” Want me to Google some quotes from female comics explaining that humor is proper in any situation especially the worst ones?

            “No different than the average racist.” That is your opinion. I could wander through these comments and point out several places where you’re blatantly sexist, but I won’t.

          • lady_black

            Oh, I really wish you would. PLEASE point out to me where I’ve been sexist.

          • Decimal

            “you do need a woman telling you how to behave” A man would do just fine.

            “You don’t belong here.” This issue affects both genders, men do belong here.

            “Your relationship with your mother was tainted with something negative, and you project that on all women.” I’m not making any negative projections on women.

            “pigs like that” women calling men pigs is like men calling women bitches.

          • lady_black

            Yeah, none of that is sexist.

          • Decimal

            Oh right, I forgot. Only men are sexist. How naive of me to assume otherwise.

          • lady_black

            None of that was directed toward *men.* It was directed toward YOU. Unicorn Farm has nailed it. You are fucking tedious. Your reading comprehension skills are terrible, and any male friends you have are pigs, if that’s truly what they believe about women. Go find someone else’s leg to hump now. You bore me.

          • Decimal

            The pig comment most certainly wasn’t aimed at me.

            And that first comment most certainly was sexist. Deny it all you want.

          • lady_black

            Look, meathead… What I said was that you certainly do need a woman (OR ANYONE) to tell you how to behave. I like how you cut that part out. But you aren’t fooling anyone. That was in direct response to your comment that you “don’t need a woman telling you how to act.” Sure, a man will do. I think men are included in *or anyone.* Don’t you? And having given your treatise on How Men Think About Women (TM), the pig comment is NOW directed at *you.*

          • Decimal

            You’re right, I cut that out. Admittedly when I read that I mis-interpreted it to mean something else and found it irrelevant to the quote so I cut it to be more concise. After re-reading it, I see my mistake. Sorry.

            However, it was in direct response to my statement that MEN (not me) do not want women telling them how to act. I think most of your angry towards me has been the result of a miscommunication.

          • fiona64

            I think most of your angry towards me has been the result of a miscommunication.

            More gaslighting.

          • fiona64

            Where did I disrespect women? I may have disrespected fiona, but she is a woman, singular.

            Oh, that makes it all better. @@ <– Those are my eyes rolling.

            You disrespect ALL women by mocking domestic violence, you beef-witted pox-plow.

          • Unicorn Farm

            You’ve elaborated on your original point, but you haven’t explained *why*.

            “When men read an article like this all they see is some woman bitching (and for that matter, many of the comments here come off the exact same way).”

            Why? Why is all you see “some woman bitching?” Why don’t you take her points seriously? Why don’t you listen when she asks men to start treating women well? Why do you simply write off what she’s saying as “bitching”?

            “Men look up to other men. It is in our nature. We need men as positive role models to teach us how to behave properly”

            Ok, so you’ve now told us that men look up to other men. Can men look up to women? Is it your thesis that men can only look up to men? Why or why not?

            “The more (quantity of) women tell us how we should behave the more it becomes white noise that we ignore.”

            Why? Why do you ignore what women say? I’ll I’m hearing here is that you listen to men, but not women. A man could tell you to treat a woman well, and you’d pay attention, but if a woman said the same thing, you wouldn’t. Why is that? Basically all you’re saying is that you’d dismiss a woman asking you to treat her like a human person, but not a man asking you to treat a woman like a human person. Is that incorrect?

            “This problem of anger and violence against women is a male problem. Yes women are the victims here, but the are the victims of men. Only men can fix this problem.”

            Well, that’s true to some degree. Now, why don’t you tell us why you refuse to stop being angry and violent towards women? Why do you have such a low opinion of men that you believe they won’t treat a woman well unless another guy tells him to? Why do you believe men are too horrible to simply treat a woman well because it’s the right thing to do?

            “We need men as positive role models to teach us how to behave properly”
            Who failed to teach you so badly?

          • Decimal

            “Why? Why is all you see “some woman bitching?” Because it is not male nature to express how we feel. That experience is foreign to us. These articles are about women who feel threatened or abused. Men do feel these things too, but we don’t vocalize them too often.

            “Is it your thesis that men can only look up to men?” No. I never said men “can ONLY” look up to other men.

            The rest of your rant involves a large use of the second person which doesn’t apply to me.

            “why don’t you tell us why you refuse to stop being angry and violent towards women?” I’m not.

            “Why do you ignore what women say?” I don’t.

            “Who failed to teach you so badly?” Seriously? I’m being reasonable and offering a solution with a glimpse into the male psyche. This all suggests that I was taught properly.

            Let me try to explain this another way. Men view women as objects of sexual conquest. That is what we do. I’m sorry, but its true. As such, men won’t take women seriously because they are there for our sexual gratification. But a man telling a boy (or man) to treat women with respect and dignity would be much more successful because men are our peers – not our playthings.

            That last bit was rather blunt, and I’m sure you will assume that I am one of those men I’m referring to and there is no way I can convince you otherwise. I know I am not that way, and I do not behave like that towards women. I just hope you can understand why men so readily dismiss these articles.

          • fiona64

            As such, men won’t take women seriously because they are there for our sexual gratification.

            men are our peers – not our playthings

            And you wonder why we think you’re disrespectful of women.

            Here’s a pro-tip for you, Sparky: We are NOT on this planet for your sexual gratification. I realize this is a revolutionary idea to an apparent Neandertal such as yourself, but do try to take it on-board. It might help you find a woman who is less likely to deflate after vigorous use.

            I know I am not that way, and I do not behave like that towards women

            The evidence here says otherwise.

          • Decimal

            You obviously didn’t read the whole thing. I see now you’re one of those people. So I won’t try to help any more.

          • lady_black

            I did read the whole thing. You only go on to become more cartoonish than you seemed in the beginning. I agree with you that women aren’t your peers. Most of us here are your betters.

          • Unicorn Farm

            It never ceases to amaze me that men can believe that women are only sexual conquests, only good for one thing, and that it’s ok to look at women as objects and treat them like shit, and yet simultaneously hold the belief that they are more qualified to run the world. Pro-tip. Holding bigoted beliefs mean you are a weak person who sucks at life are superior to no one.

          • Decimal

            Agreed.

          • fiona64

            Yes, sweetie, I read the whole hot mess of mansplaining that you posted. It didn’t improve your position.

          • Unicorn Farm

            hahahahhahahhahahaha
            help!??! you think you’re being helpful by explaining to us how little respect for women you (and other men) have!?!?!??
            Gee. Like we’ve never been graced with that particular bit of Male Wisdom(tm) before.

          • Decimal

            OK, I figured it was obvious that my rant about women being sexual objects was taken from personal observations. I don’t feel that way at all. It was meant to explain why it is that men don’t listen to you.

            But if you all want to scare off the one guy who is giving insight and perspective then you can just be stuck in your own little hell where every man is something to be feared.

          • Unicorn Farm

            You *say* you don’t feel that way, but your other comments indicate that you do.
            First, do not believe that that little screed contained any theory that I have never heard before. Believe me, I’ve heard all of it and then some. So you are certainly not *the only man* willing to spend his Precious Man Time enlightening me on how men think. This is not valuable insight and perspective. I only wanted to make you admit that you do not respect women, which I have done.
            Believe me, I did not create “this little hell.” Men like you did. You have done literally nothing to alleviate the problem. Do not flatter yourself.

          • Decimal

            So if you’ve heard it all before then why were you so relentless in trying to get me to explain why it is that men don’t listen? Is it because you don’t listen to men?

          • Unicorn Farm

            You are so fucking tedious.
            1) I wanted you to admit it
            2) I’m bored at work
            3) I want sexist men to show their sexism. I want it on display so that readers can see it. It’s important that people know how sexist and terrible MRA/ angry man like you really are.
            4) I’ve given up hope that you’d change your mind when confronted with how sexist you are, but you wont. But hey, at least one poster learned about tone trolling, so there is hope for some of you.

          • Decimal

            1.) I didn’t and don’t admit it. I stand by my conviction that that is how most men view women. I am not a part of that majority.
            2.) Me too! What you doing?
            3.)I am not an MRA because I never said women aren’t oppressed, in fact, I said quite the opposite many times. Still, I am not angry. Just sad.
            4.)A long time ago from frequenting rallies and talking with people of both genders, I realized that the only solution here is for a change of the definition of “masculine”. And that only men can define masculinity for men. I hope that men can change their ways to be more respectful and courteous.

          • Unicorn Farm

            1) Your words on this thread suggest otherwise. You speak as if you view women this way. You laugh at domestic violence. You came onto this page arguing. You do not write as if you are an ally and I will not believe your backpedaling.
            2) I am a lawyer.
            3) I do not care how you identify yourself.
            4) If you hope that men will change their ways, then how about you start? You could at least start by quit making fun of domestic violence victims.

          • Decimal

            1.) “Comedy helps to ease the pain.” – Joan Rivers. Also, you’re inferring things I did not intend to imply. Next time I’ll make it more obvious.

            2.)I’m in the most notoriously sexist industry – software engineering. My sexist “friends” that view women horribly are actually my “co-workers”

            3.)That’s great! We agree on something.

            4.)I have started. I make men aware of their negative behaviors when I see it. And again – “Comedy helps to ease the pain.” – Joan Rivers.

          • Unicorn Farm

            1) It’s not your prerogative to laugh at the abuse women face by men. It’s not YOUR pain to ease. STFU. And no, your words speak for themselves. Do not gaslight me and tell me that I misinterpreted your words and that you “didn’t mean it.”
            2) Law is pretty bad but probably not as bad as engineering. Why don’t you tell your broworkers to treat women better? Make yourself useful.
            3) ……
            4) Good. And again, it’s not your prerogative to laugh. See number 1.

          • Decimal

            1.) I laugh at my own misfortune and make fun of myself all the time. I only treat others fairly in this. I know I will never be able to convince you of how it is that I behave towards women face-face. But I don’t need to, because I know who I am and I am proud of it.
            2.) See 4.)
            4.) See 1)

            Cutting this down to 1 point. We may very nearly be at a consensus!

          • Unicorn Farm

            1) You’re welcome to laugh at yourself all you want. But you are not welcome to laugh at the suffering of others, especially when you are a member of the privileged class that perpetuates the suffering. You should also treat women on the internet as well as you treat them face to face.

          • Decimal

            To be a member of that class I would have to perpetuate the suffering myself. I don’t. I’ve never raised a fist to anyone in anger except when I was 8 and it was against my older brother for taking my toy… or something. I don’t really remember.

            I did try desperately to treat women fairly and with respect here. But I was attacked and insulted from the very beginning even though my intentions were good. Yes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions and all that.

            I do understand how my joke offended the women here. For that I am truly sorry. It was a self-defense mechanism.

          • Unicorn Farm

            We were so close!! You don’t have to perpetuate the suffering yourself to be a member of the class- the privileged class in this case is men. It’s like how I can’t make a joke how great Jim Crow laws are cause I’m white. Doesn’t matter that I never enforced a Jim Crow law because I’m 27.
            I am not sorry for insulting you on this board- you presented some very hostile opinions (even if you now claim they are not yours) in a reproductive justice forum. It’s sort of like poking a bear.
            Thanks for your apology.

          • Decimal

            “We were so close!!” Still are… I think…
            I am a white male American. You can lump me into the same collective label as white male Americans that use derogatory language and commit acts of violence against others. But that’s not fair or accurate. What you’re actually opposed to as a “privileged class” are oppressive men – specifically. Not all men. I am not oppressive, nor abusive. So I am not a part of that class. That label simply does not describe me in any way at all.

            As for the humor thing, that is totally off topic, we will have to agree to disagree. But I am of the opinion that nothing is sacred when it comes to humor. I’m not the only one that feels that way. Ask any professional comedian of either gender and they’ll very likely agree.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “What you’re actually opposed to as a “privileged class” are oppressive men – specifically. Not all men”

            Don’t you dare mansplain to me what I’m opposed to. You are a member of a privilege class that historically and currently oppresses women. Not all men abuse women, but all men are members of that privileged class. That is what I said.

            The CLASS is men. Not abusers. Just like the class of people perpetuating jim crow laws is white people, even though they all aren’t necessarily racist. As a white person I am a member of a privileged class that historically and currently oppresses black people. That doesn’t mean that I, myself, am racist. There’s no other way for me to explain this to you, so just google “male privilege” and learn for yourself.

            “As for the humor thing, that is totally off topic, we will have to agree to disagree. But I am of the opinion that nothing is sacred when it comes to humor. I’m not the only one that feels that way. Ask any professional comedian of either gender and they’ll very likely agree”
            Professional comedians are usually funny. You’re not. Plus, they usually use racial or sexist tropes in a subversive way to make a point. It’s not just Lol, let’s hit a woman and lol about it!

          • Decimal

            Whoa. I will not tell you what you are and are not opposed to ever again. Just grant me the same courtesy regarding my perceived treatment of women.

            To bring it back, cuz I lost it up there somewhere…
            “But you are not welcome to laugh at the suffering of others, especially when you are a member of the privileged class that perpetuates the suffering” On that, I disagree. It is my right as a member of the planet Earth to laugh at whatever I want.

          • Unicorn Farm

            So, you want me to believe that you respect women, and you also laugh at domestic violence victims.
            Now do you understand why we all know that you’re an abuser who does not respect women?

          • Decimal

            I laugh extra hard at men that are victims of domestic violence. What does that mean?

          • Unicorn Farm

            it means boring troll is boring

          • Decimal

            Fair enough.

            My point is that I treat all humans regardless of race, gender, creed or sexual orientation the same. Which is all the women here want, isn’t it?

          • Shan

            No, it just means that you think you are far more clever than you really are and so consequently you are tone deaf to your audience.

          • A. T.

            Please don’t. ._.

          • fiona64

            I did try desperately to treat women fairly and with respect here

            Oh, bullshit.

            I do understand how my joke offended the women here. For that I am truly sorry.

            “I’m sorry you were offended” is not an apology.

          • Decimal

            Oh I’m not sorry I offended you. You’re mean and hurtful.
            I’m apologizing to the other women here.

          • fiona64

            Telling me that I’m “mean and hurtful” because I’m not buying your bullshit just makes me laugh. You’re the one who duly informed us that DV is funny because you say so, and that women are playthings, not peers.

            If I hurt your little man-child fee-fees by calling you out for that, I’m glad.

            Suck it up, buttercup.

          • Decimal

            You don’t need to buy my bullshit, I’m giving it away from free. By the truck-load!

            On a more serious note, Fiona64, you have kept me thoroughly entertained at work today. For that I thank you. You have been a fun plaything indeed.

          • fiona64

            You have been a fun plaything indeed.

            I’m sure it comforts you to tell yourself that, dear.

            I’ve been the one playing with my food all day, by exposing you and your fellow “MRAs” for the angry little children that you are.

            Seek counseling for your mommy issues.

          • Decimal

            Didn’t your mom teach you not to play with your food? Who was poorly raised now, huh?

          • fiona64

            See that? It was the point, whizzing right over your head.

            Go color while the adults talk, little boy. You’ve become just another boring, angry man-child.

          • Decimal

            Hey now. I’m a victim of severe psychological trauma. That is not funny.

          • fiona64

            PS: If you’re wondering why you have trouble with women, I suggest a) improving your personal hygiene, and b) ceasing to refer to women as your sexual playthings. Unlike your RealGirl doll, actual women tend to take umbrage at that kind of thing.

            Just a little advice, free of charge.

          • Decimal

            “If you’re wondering why you have trouble with women” I wasn’t. I know exactly what my trouble with women is.

            “improving your personal hygiene” Will that make that smell go away? I was starting to wonder about that.

            “actual women tend to take umbrage at that kind of thing” Umbrage? Did you forget you’re talking to a man-child? We don’t know those kinds of fancy words.

            “Just a little advice, free of charge.” THANKS! <3

          • Unicorn Farm

            “You have been a fun plaything indeed”

            dude, we were making progress. Fuck. Off.

          • Decimal

            I seriously just LOL’d.

          • fiona64

            When a DV survivor tells you that joking about DV is NOT funny, you don’t get to stick out your lower lip and say “is too!”

            Period.

            Cut out the gaslighting and mansplaining.

          • Decimal

            “Period.” Obviously.

          • Shan

            That’s really cheap.

          • fiona64

            And yet he wants us to believe that he’s not a sexist pig. Heh.

          • kest

            God, is there anything more tiring than someone who makes fun of someone and then, when justifiable offense ensues, tries to hide behind ‘but I was just kidding!’

          • lady_black

            She didn’t ask you why *men* don’t listen, or why they perceive a woman asking to be treated as better than property is “just women bitching.” She asked why YOU say that. You gave your game away.

          • fiona64

            But if you all want to scare off the one guy who is giving insight and perspective

            Is *that* what you think you’re doing?

            BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

          • kest

            I find it really kind of fascinating that if we take you at your word, that this is your impression of ‘men’ (not including you), then every woman here is giving your gender more credit than you are, because they insist on believing that in fact men *can* treat women as equal human beings and that even the worst of them can change.

          • J100409

            Why would someone read a whole post when it takes four extra precious seconds which could be spent typing out some scolding for saying what the reader assumed the original poster was going to say in the rest of the post?

          • lady_black

            No, sweetheart. That is NOT foreign to men. It may be foreign to *you.* Not only haven’t you been taught properly, you haven’t managed to grab a clue along the way. You were raised to believe *boys don’t cry.* So you believe that. But it’s not true. Men DO cry. It’s a natural reaction to loss. My manly former football player husband cried his eyes out when his beloved Siamese died suddenly. He has feelings, too. He shouldn’t be ridiculed for expressing them. I also saw him cry at my mom’s funeral, and my brother’s funeral. Someone messed you up badly.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Truth. I have seen almost every man I’ve been close to (family, partners, even good friends), cry in response to emotional events or struggles. And it’s more than ok.

          • Unicorn Farm

            You appear to have difficulty with reading. The entirety of my post was directed at you. Read it again and produce a responsive answer, or simply admit that you do not respect women as people.

            “Let me try to explain this another way. Men view women as objects of sexual conquest. That is what we do. I’m sorry, but its true. As such, men won’t take women seriously because they are there for our sexual gratification. But a man telling a boy (or man) to treat women with respect and dignity would be much more successful because men are our peers – not our playthings”
            You are a fucked up person. You are a sexist, misogynistic piece of shit, human garbage. I do believe that you think this way because of how you have behaved on this board and on others. The planet would be better if all people who thought as you do were exterminated. To all the men who claim that women are “overreacting” and that there is “no such thing as the patriarchy” and “sexism is over,” BEHOLD, posts like this.
            However, thankfully, not all men think this way. But you can go ahead and fuck yourself.

          • A. T.

            When joke about a survivor ‘deserving’ abuse, you lose your teaching moment and, well, any rapport you had. You may need a male model. Not everyone does. Your point would have better served with a single, tactful explanation than shutting up.

            You might take your own advice.

          • alternatesteve2

            I hate to say this, dude, but you’re dead wrong. Not all men, or even the majority, view women as trophies to be won. I sure don’t.

          • fiona64

            Wow. So much sound and fury, signifying nothing.

            You went to a lot of trouble to write a bunch of shit that did not answer UF’s question at all.

          • Shan

            “not intended to offend members of the fairer sex,”

            Losing more of your audience right there

          • lady_black

            Oh it gets MUCH worse, Shan.

          • Shan

            *sigh* Well, one can try, right?

          • Arekushieru

            Bitching. Yet when a MAN does it, it’s called teaching. I’m sure. Lost even MORE of your audience sexist douchebag.

            I’m all FOR men calling out other men, but when you leave out the ones who are victimized, it’s kinda like only getting the bullies’ opinion on how to solve the bullying victim’s problem. And I’ve never known anyone to be able to read another’s mind except under exceptional circumstances. So, please do tell me how that would work? Kthxbainow.

          • http://mediajunkie.com/ xian

            The rest of us men would prefer you stop pretending like you speak for us.

          • lady_black

            You miss a lot.

          • Unicorn Farm

            ‘”why would it matter?” it wouldn’t. What I said was the most ridiculous response I could think of on the fly for why fiona claimed to not like my joke. Ridiculousness is what I do.”

            Ridiculousness? You think its ok to laugh off *making fun of a specific person’s experience with domestic violence* as just your quirky “ridiculousness”? Do you realize how fucked up that is?

            Seriously. You are asking us to just be cool with the fact that you JOKED about domestic violence perpetrated against Fiona?

            Like I said, you man babies are giving us 1,001 reasons to hate men like you.

          • Decimal

            I didn’t ask you to be cool with anything.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Fine. So you admit that you make jokes about domestic violence. Why are you such a horrible person?

          • Decimal

            Because my mommy didn’t love me.
            Is that what you want to hear?
            Moving on….

          • Unicorn Farm

            I want you to remove yourself from society because I think you are waste of resources with no redeeming qualities, but I’d settle for you getting off this thread and leaving the women here alone.

          • lady_black

            That much is obvious. No man who had a loving relationship with his mother says the things you say.

          • fiona64

            What I said was the most ridiculous response I could think of on the fly for why fiona claimed to not like my joke.

            Casse-toi.

          • catseye

            Did you mean “Tais-toi” (Shut up) or were you actually telling him to break himself? (Sorry; I’m a bit of a language nerd.)

          • fiona64

            “Casse-toi” is Parisian slang. It literally translates to “break yourself,” but it’s used as “go fuck yourself.”

          • catseye

            Wasn’t familiar with that one. Thanx.

          • lady_black

            Um, she asked you why it matters what the “reason” (excuse) behind domestic violence is. All abusers believe they have reasons, and none of them actually do. I caught that, and she wasn’t even asking the question of me. You aren’t too bright, are you? Can you please answer the question?

          • Sarah Jenson

            I think he was trying to say he’d punch other men if they were being sexist

          • Unicorn Farm

            Nope. Quit posting here without reading the thread. He wrote: “Was the [domestic violence] a result of your correction of his failed English?” In response to a long-time poster saying that she was a victim of domestic violence. IE. BLAMING her for her own abuse.

          • Arekushieru

            But, guess what, he would never dare claim that the man was responsible for his own abuse. And then they wonder why we claim double standards, misogyny, rape culture and patriarchy? Wow, how much cognitive dissonance does it take to make an MRA. There’s a joke in there somewhere I just know it. (It doesn’t make light of domestic violence, and it targets one of the privileged class, after all.)

          • fiona64

            Um, no. He made it very clear that he thinks women who correct mens’ grammar deserve to be the victims of DV.

            Is there some reason why you are defending this kind of low-life behavior?

          • http://mediajunkie.com/ xian

            why do you insist on shaming people by implying they do not understand what other commenters meant? this can trigger people with cognitive challenges.

          • fiona64

            She’s gaslighting. I don’t fall for that crap.

          • lady_black

            Oh. My. God. Why don’t you just shut up while you’re still ahead? You just can’t help yourself, can you?

          • lady_black

            Violence isn’t humorous.

          • Shan

            “I feel humor is the best way to ease a tense situation”

            If you want to be a performer, know your audience. Work the room. See what works. Learn from your mistakes.

          • Arekushieru

            No, men are not trying to help and thanks for proving what a misogynist you are! You’re opinion is oh-so-high-and-mighty that we must believe that all women here are incredibly angry and frustrated… because you say so.

            Also, the responsibility is on the one who made the humorous comment, not the other way around. Believing that women are the ones responsible for the mistakes you don’t want to clean up is just another example of… you guessed it… your MISOGYNY.

          • fiona64

            He’s gaslighting. Plain and simple.

          • alternatesteve2

            Yeah, I mean, come on. DV *is* a serious problem…..

          • fiona64

            I didn’t say anything about how you’re permitted to talk. I’m merely
            expressing that men don’t want to hear this stuff from women.

            I’m guessing that the contradictory nature of these two sentences is lost on you … as with so many other things.

          • Decimal

            I’m guessing the definition of contradictory is lost on you.
            “How” describes a manner of function, where as “want” describes desire and “need” describes necessity. IF I were to tell you HOW you’re permitted to talk I would have said something along the lines of “you are not allowed to say these things to men.” The following sentences about want and need pertain to an effective means of altering male behavior. None of these sentences contradict anything else.

          • fiona64

            Thanks for the fabulous mansplaining, dudebro.

          • lady_black

            Actually, yes they are contradictory. If you tell a woman, you refuse to hear “XYZ” from a woman, you ARE telling her what she is permitted to say.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Why? Why can’t men learn if they hear it from women? Why does a man have to hear it from another man?

          • A. T.

            By that standard, you can’t talk to women about anything, ever. :)

          • fiona64

            I don’t think he’s ever gotten closer to an adult woman (his mother not withstanding) than an Inflate-a-Date. :-/ And they tend not to talk back.

          • A. T.

            I don’t disagree with the principle entirely- there are things men can hear more easily from men. It can be in code or not hurt their dignity or so on. There are definitely things I’d rather talk with women. But if the word ‘never’ comes up…. yeah. ._.

      • lady_black

        By your last sentence, you do need a woman (or anyone) telling you how to behave, On your own, you clearly have no clue.

        • Sarah Jenson

          I think he was implying that he would punch men if they were being sexist, which is a pretty good policy to have, I think

          • Unicorn Farm

            Um, no? Hitting anyone isn’t the right thing to do unless it’s self defense or the defense of others?

            Come on. BTW- that’s not what he’s implying. This little tool bag has been all over this thread disrespecting women and joking about domestic violence.

          • lady_black

            No, you do not think. Period.

      • variable

        Don’t speak for me you sexist douchenozzle.

    • A. T.

      Thank you. And I mean that. I appreciate men that speak out.

  • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

    Sorry that your butts hurt, gentlemen.

    • Decimal

      Huh?

  • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

    He has ALWAYS BEEN an MRA, Sarah. That’s the point. They need to be smoked out of their holes and shot. Have a great day.

    • Sarah Jenson

      Okay, fair enough, but why are you being so aggressive? And, even more importantly, what is with the consistent and aggressive body shaming throughout this whole thread? You very clearly need much, much more inter-sectional feminism in your life

      • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

        I’m aggressive because it’s necessary. Politely requesting your right to exist as a sovereign human being is not sufficient.

        I am not here to be nice, Sarah. Just as the men who threaten violence with impunity on the internet are here to cause pain and suffering, I am here to hit them where it hurts them, in their psyches… Their feelings of sexual inadequacy fuel their aggression and I put them on notice. I am here to speak truth, not to be polite. If you want to play politics, go ahead.

        But please disabuse yourself of any notion that I am here for the comfort of anyone else.

        • Sarah Jenson

          How is asking you to not use language that would cause a trans gendered person with dysmorphia to have a panic attack playing politics?

          • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

            Think you missed the point, darling.

          • Sarah Jenson

            No, I think you’re intentionally ignoring the fact that, in your righteous crusade against someone who was, admittedly kind of a huge jerk, you used phrases that were harmful to another minority group.

          • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

            I think you missed the point, darling.

          • Sarah Jenson

            You can be condescending all you want, but you’re still the one who use transphobic language. Sweetheart.

          • Unicorn Farm

            what transphobic language?

          • Sarah Jenson

            In a different point in the thread, Jessica used very graphic shaming of male genitalia, something which trans women suffering from body dysmorphia find extremely triggering (or at least I know I do.) Something that very intensly triggers trans people is inherently transphobic language

          • Unicorn Farm

            OK, what did she say?

        • Sarah Jenson

          Jessica, you bother me. You can claim a vast sweeping and overpowering intellect all you want (and you do seem to claim it all you want) but, when you get down to it, if the only response you can muster to any critique of you that anyone has ever made is to say that they just don’t understand the vast and magnificent workings of your mind, your facade of intellectual superiority begins to very quickly take on a form that is, at best extreme laziness and, at worst an intentional exaggeration of your own capabilities. It is very easy to consider oneself infallible if any time someone points out a mistake you make it is just them failing to appreciate your grandeur. Your flaming rhetoric and plans to “hit them in their psyches, their feelings of sexual inadequacy and fuel their aggression” (which, rather important side note, if their aggression is what’s causing all of the problems in the above article, which it very clearly is, why on earth would fueling it be a good idea?) may make it very easy for you to justify any and all actions you take and words you speak as the workings of your own personal righteous crusade against the patriarchy, but, honestly, what are you really doing here? The only thing you’ve accomplished today is to more squarely cement peoples (incredibly false) beliefs that feminism is a negative and destructive force by providing an example of someone using feminism to justify being a jerk, not just to men who are being misogynistic, but to everyone you come across.You can call yourself a crusader and an intellectual giant all you want but your inability to form cohesive sentences (“Their feelings of sexual inadequacy fuel their agression and I put them on notice”? What does that mean? What is the subject? (perhaps the reason I’ve ‘missed the point’ as you put it twice is because you so poorly articulated it)) and your lack of any particularly thought out goals beyond “THEY WERE MEAN SO I’M GONNA BE MEAN BACK” makes me think, not of a visionary, but of a third grader. I’m sure you’re going to dismiss this as just someone you offended in your righteous fight ranting and raving as their world crumbles around them and, perhaps, you’ll even cite this as evidence that you are challenging peoples beliefs and shaking the foundations of their acceptance of society’s flaws, but I still feel as though this is worth saying, both because, as I said before, you do bother me and I want to get that out there, and because if by some small chance this does begin to get through to you and you re-evaluate your tactics, you could begin to be a force for real change. You are clearly so passionate about this and your end goals of female equality and the rights to exist as a sovereign human being are something that not just women, but all reasonable human beings should support and, if you focused less on a silly eye for an eye strategy about hurtful speech (you know what Ghandi said about that) and more on actually trying to fight for change I think you really could do it. So go out. Read a book about intersectional feminism (I really cannot stress enough how fantastic it is) maybe stop being a transphobic shitlord and do some real good. Also, if you want to claim you actually read this, use the word penguin when you respond to it. I don’t care where. Just say penguin in your comment. You could even make fun of me for being paranoid about you *not* reading it all the way through, but unless you do, I’m going to assume you skimmed it and responded by dismissing it without taking any of it into account.

          • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

            Sarah,

            I do not care if you like it.

            Peace be with you!

            xoxo,
            Jessica

          • Sarah Jenson

            Thank you for dismissing it without reading anything beyond the first few sentences.

          • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

            No problem!

          • Sarah Jenson

            I will note that, had you remembered to say penguin, my respect for you and your point of view would have grown immensely. You know it is possible to win people over to your side instead of just driving them away

          • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

            Sorry, Miss Jenson. I spared myself the effort and time required to sort through the gibberish.

            As for your respect, it is neither requested nor necessary. I would suggest keeping it for yourself!

            Please take care!

          • Sarah Jenson

            It’s funny that you use the word gibberish as a great portion of, what was honestly a very optimistic amount of text to expect you to read, was about the fact that you seem to be unable to stop dismissing other peoples ideas as poorly formed without bothering to look at them

          • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

            Apologies for your misunderstanding. I was basing my dismissal of your ideas as poorly formed on the rest of your comments having been poorly formed.

            Have a great day!

          • Sarah Jenson

            You’re cute, you know that? You remind me of me as a 20 something. I do truly hope you have a nice life. But, as a personal favor to me, all other things aside, could you just refrain from language which might trigger a trans woman? I feel as though it would not be severely limiting in your ability critique guys and it would prevent you from being pretty accidentaly biggotted

          • badphairy

            She doesn’t have to “not bother you” to be a person with her own opinions. If you are bothered by this conversation, feel absolutely free to have it elsewhere, with other like-minded people. I would suggest Stormfront.

          • alternatesteve2

            Good points, all. Feminism is a great thing…..but it doesn’t need to suffer from any more bad press just because a few people let their anger, no matter how justified it may be sometimes, go to their heads. Just sayin’. =(

          • nm

            this is BS. Feminists are people. People get mad. Feminist people especially get mad at trolls/beards/MRAs/misogynists. The latter people are idiots no matter what because their “arguments” are idiotic, the former at least have something to say.

          • alternatesteve2

            Hey N.M.; and, btw, I don’t like the MRAs, either. Many of them actually are complete assholes, by and large(Roosh V, Paul Elam, etc.).

          • catseye

            But it’s JUUUUUUUST FIIIIIIIINE for the MRA’s to spew hate and anger all over the intertubes. Puh-LEEEEEEEEEZE!!!

          • alternatesteve2

            No, catseye, I don’t think so. Frankly, from all I’ve seen, not only are most of the people in the “Men’s Rights” movement jerks, and much worse, in many cases, but some of them are actually downright dangerous, to the point where they might actually act on their hate.

            You may have heard of Dave Futrelle’s “Manboobz” site, btw? I have to say, I learned a lot about the “Men’s Movement” from looking at the stuff he’s screencapped over the years. Scary stuff, indeed. =(

    • catseye

      Looks like their latest tactic is to drag in a member of the “MRA Ladies’ Auxiliary” to defend them when they shoot themselves in the foot. I’ve been dealing with one of these tedious tag-teams over on AlterNet. (Or possibly the “Auxiliary ‘Lady’ ” is just another screen sock.

      • Sarah Jenson

        How does asking someone not to be transphobic make me a MRA Ladies Auxiliary member? The MRA movement are silly little boys and I want to deal with them as little as humanly possible, but transphobia genuinely bothers me, as it should bother everybody

        • catseye

          Except there is NOTHING “transphobic” in the article. Just FYI, the term, “cisgendered” means that someone identifies as the gender expressed by their DNA.
          NEXT!

          • Sarah Jenson

            I’m saying that she was being transphobic when she used really agresive body shaming about male genitalia, something that a trans woman suffering from body dysmorphia would find very triggering

          • http://mediajunkie.com/ xian

            this is not even good concern trolling

        • fiona64

          Kindly point out the transphobia in this article.

          I’ll wait.

        • colleen2

          That’s odd. Because you SOUND so much like one of those women who seeks the attention and approval of MRA. And you are so snotty to the women who usually post here.

    • kest

      I want to point out that saying that people should be ‘shot’ is the same kind of behavior that this article is decrying even if against a different target, not to mention it gives the MRA and trolly gamergaters fuel to use when they want to play the victim.

      • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

        I never said I would look up their home address, come to their houses, and shoot them. But, since we’re on the topic, I would pay good money to watch them tortured.

        You’ll have to forgive my sadism. I’m not really in the mood to dress up pigs and pretend they’re civilized humans.

        • Ian Norton

          You’re a terrible person and anyone labeling themselves as egalitarian or an equity feminist should want to distance themselves from you. I deserve to be tortured because I challenge you? Sounds like what a tyrant would do. I’m glad nobody is giving you political power or we’d all be in trouble.

          • variable

            You’re the one pretending to be some Devil’s Advocate for the folks who are threatening women with rape and death. I wouldn’t be throwing stones if I were you.

          • badphairy

            BTW, “you’re a terrible person” is a stock phrase that trolls and MRAers repeat at whoever doesn’t agree with them. They hope it will stick. Flag and move on. Ad hominem is a sign of a non-argument.

          • Ian Norton

            Seriously? She said she’d pay good money to watch me tortured. I’m not even an MRA or troll.

          • fiona64

            I’m not even an MRA or troll.

            BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

          • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

            When did i label myself as anything?

            I am a sovereign human being. I think for myself.

            It’s cute that all you beards think any woman with an opinion identifies with any type of mainstream ideology or feminism.

            Further, did I say I wanted to torture you? No. I said anyone who threatens another human being and thinks it’s fine (bc games! ovaries!) should probably have pain inflicted upon them.

            I also said that I would pay to watch. Because I love when men cry. I think it’s cute.

            Speaking of, darling, I’d be happy if more people would distance themselves from me. But you dudes can’t seem to stop wanting to hump my leg.

            Ironic, no?

          • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

            PS. Nobody “gives” you power. You take it.

            How do you know I’m not involved in politics? Can’t use the google machine?

      • Some Dude

        People are terrible to people they don’t know. Especially when anonymous.

        There is NOTHING different about saying MRA’s need to be shot, in addition to other stereotyping and name calling, and what this article is trying to condemn.

        Better go back to the drawing board.

    • Ian Magus

      “They need to be smoked out of their holes and shot.”

      For having opinions you don’t agree with and not even being one of the alleged trolls harassing women, you casually advocate murder. Maybe their corpses should be defiled and castrated as well, simply for having the audacity to tell someone to calm down.

      Fortunately, most people won’t consider this a legitimate threat to his life that is deeply hurtful, degrading and warranting of federal prosecution. Not because you are female and he is male, because it’s a comments section where people should rarely have their words interpreted literally.

      I’m holding up a very large mirror for you to look in right now that reflects exactly the point he was trying to get across…I’ll just wait for the stones to be thrown to break it.

      • http://www.blackmarketwitch.com/ Brookman

        Thank you for demonstrating my point, darling.

        How fussy it makes you when your games are turned back on you.

        Ineffectual metaphors won’t save your impotent argument as you’ve walked right into the logical trap I set.

        You’re welcome.

      • Shan

        You’ll notice that you haven’t been doxxed and had your home address posted online by someone threatening to show up and rape and or murder you.

        • Ian Magus

          Has anyone in this thread had that happen to them? As a participant in the conversation, is it something I should be concerned about?

          I have received rape, beating and murder threats online in the past from members of both genders, but if anyone has shared my information, I wasn’t aware of it. Unfortunately that comes as part and parcel of disagreeing with someone online on a number of topics these days. It’s not something I’m particularly fond of receiving, but it happens.

    • Matthew Lane

      The irony that you are threating violence in an article about not threatening violence online. Brookman, are you aware of a psychological tactic among high conflict personalities known as “DARVO”?

  • fiona64

    The discussion is about threats and harassment. Do try to keep up.

    PS: It’s cute how you upvoted your own post.

    • Sarah Jenson

      Actually, it was just about internet trolls until Jessica changed the subject

      • fiona64

        Your name is right there if you hover over the little 2, sweetie. You upvoted your own post. You might want to fix that.

        And the *article* is about threats and harassment. Jesus wept; did you even bother to READ it before you leaped into to defend your little dudebro buddy?

        • Jamie

          “Sweetie”

      • Jamie

        So internet threats are not real threats? Oh, I see now.

        • Matthew William Millett

          maybe more recently they are, but for the first 20 years of the internet online threats were not taken seriously by law enforcement at all

  • Sarah Jenson

    Garbage person is my new go too insult

    • lady_black

      Go “too” what, dear?

      • Sarah Jenson

        Okay, yes, that was a stupid typo, but why the condescension? I liked the article a lot and I thought a particular turn of phrase it used was quite clever. I’m sorry that that bothered you

        • fiona64

          I’m glad you liked the article, to be honest; I just wish I understood why you’re defending the sexist slimeballs posting here … who only serve to point up the importance of the article.

        • lady_black

          Maybe because you defend trash talk.

          • GregWal

            She hasn’t been doing that in the least. She’s been asking you and the others to stop the trash talk.

          • lady_black

            Oh yeah. YOU. Have you found the “aggressive and violent” comments here yet? If not, I don’t want to hear anything you have to say. Back up your bravo sierra, or move on.

          • GregWal

            I don’t think anyone wants to hear what you have to say because it’s bigoted slop that does nothing but contribute to the devolution of society. Now go smash up a mirror while crying or whatever it is angry young ignorant people do these days to draw attention to themselves.

          • lady_black

            My goodness you certainly can assume, can’t you? Of course, when you assume, you make an “ass” of “u” and it won’t faze “me.” Angry young ignorant person? Bwahahahaha!

          • GregWal

            Embrace the DARK SIDE lady black. Keep on embracing it until you’re old and bitter as you realize you wasted your life generalizing people and hating them.

          • lady_black

            I’m already old, and I’m laughing at you. I don’t hate you. I don’t like you very much, though.

          • GregWal

            I doubt you like anyone. And, sadly, it probably starts with a problem deep inside. I hope you can learn to deal with it.

          • lady_black

            Nah. It’s just you.

          • expect_resistance

            Are your clairvoyant? No, then shut-up.

          • A. T.

            The Dark Side has cookies. And the best outfits.

          • expect_resistance

            That’s why I went to the dark side, cookies. :)

          • Shan

            I got a blender.

            What? It was for all the abortions. I have a punch card.

          • expect_resistance

            What’s your excuse crabby pants.

          • Arekushieru

            Sorry, but there was no generalizing of anyone, here. It’s not OUR fault that you can’t grasp that concept.

          • fiona64

            My goodness, what a crabby little boy. I think you need a nap.

          • expect_resistance

            Same to you.

          • fiona64

            You don’t read very well, do you?

        • Unicorn Farm

          I still really want to know what this language that was offensive to trangender women was. No one can refrain from using it if you don’t tell us.

          • kest

            She’s offended by comments that aim to insult dudebros by remarking on the size of their genitalia. I believe her not-actually-stated point is that that is insulting to the naturally small-penised.

  • armenia4ever

    Note to all guys, don’t date the author of this article. No matter what you do, she will always subconsciously despise you.

    • Shan

      Subconsciously? Really? If you read the article, you’d know that the author doesn’t really leave much un-said. No, pretty much anybody she considers to be despicable is going to know it right up front.

    • A. T.

      ..Is it that hard to not threaten to rape, maim, or beat women for you? o_o

      • fiona64

        Apparently some people just can’t handle that concept. :-/

        • A. T.

          ._. This makes me quite sad.

          • alternatesteve2

            Yeah, A.T., me too. =(

    • alternatesteve2

      Not fuckin’ cool, dude. picardfacepalm.jpg

    • nm

      is there a term for when men try and take down a woman a notch or two by calling her undesirable to men? as if she gives a fuck tho?

  • dsws

    “When’s the last time you heard a dude making a rape joke or saw your buddy harassing a woman on the street … ?”

    Never, of course. There are many thousands of these creeps out there — out of hundreds of millions of Americans. And they tend to be each other’s buddies, not the friends of men who call themselves feminist and hyphenate their last names when they get married.

    • fiona64

      Never, of course.

      Then I suggest you start reading this thread, where one poster has made rape jokes and another has joked about domestic violence.

      And the argument that there are “just a few of them,” which you seem to be making? Doesn’t hold water.

      • dsws

        “Random person on the internet” and “your buddy” are not the same. The question was about one’s actual friends, or at least people one interacts with in real life: the creeps telling rape jokes and making threats need to hear from their “brothers and dads and uncles and nephews and bosses and coworkers and yoga teachers and friends and fellow fantasy-footballers and dudes they always say hi to at the bodega and professors and grandfathers and mechanics and favorite bartenders”. My brothers don’t make rape jokes. Neither do my sons. I only have nieces, no nephews, but neither of my brothers would have put up with rape jokes from their sons if they’d had any. I don’t do fantasy football, or hang out in a man-cave.

        Sure, I could find misogyny online, and feed the trolls. That has nothing to do with what article was about, i.e. talking to “your guy friends”.

        As for the mention of “thousands”, that was in the article. I changed it from “literal thousands” to “many thousands”. There are millions, of course: a small percentage of the male population, but only moderately small. The thing is, they’re mostly from the same social circles as each other, not as people who identify as feminists. Why would anyone want to hang out with a bunch of creeps?

        • fiona64

          I concur; why would anyone want to hang out with such creeps.

          However, I think that the point went whizzing over your head.

          That’s okay, though. After all, it’s only a “small portion” (#notallmen) of people acting like asshats that #yesallwomen have to deal with every day. /snark

      • A. T.

        Twitter changes everything. ._.

  • Maia Randklev

    This article is freakin’ fantastic. Thank you, Andrea Grimes for your courageous, witty, and well written call to arms!

  • Lydia Ooghe

    Ye gods, those of you stuck in the rabid chihuahua thunderdome that is so much of this comments thread, please get a grip. When you find yourself threatening violence and ping-ponging insults at one another ad nauseum, it is time to take a breath and think of some better way to make a difference. This nonsense is embarrassing and not good for anyone.

    • Arekushieru

      Oh, really, do tell me what being ‘polite’ gained women one-thousand, two-thousand years ago in the way of rights? If you said just more abuse heaped on the ‘uppity’ women, you are correct!

      • Lydia Ooghe

        You put the word “polite” in quotes, but I didn’t use that word. I’m not saying women should be polite instead of standing up for themselves. There is a difference between activism and bickering endlessly with strangers. People don’t come to the internet to have their minds changed. I think it’s better to talk to people in person, or write something and get it published. So much of what is happening here just doesn’t help anything.

        • variable

          Well thanks so much for coming in here to tell all of us how we should behave in our spare time. Do me a favor and take both your idiotic False Equivalence Fallacy and your I’m So Above All You attitude and, I don’t know, talk to people in person, or write something and get it published.

          It would be infinitely preferable to having to listened to your god damned whining.

          • Lydia Ooghe

            Ok, giant white rabbit with a made up name.

        • Unicorn Farm

          “So much of what is happening here just doesn’t help anything.”
          How do you know?

        • A. T.

          Eh. Sometimes it needs to happen. A Voice for Men needs to be called out, or people sometimes buy into their crap. There’s men that will have just started following the site and not knowing what they are buying into. They may still follow it after I post, but at least they know what and who they are supporting. (One example.)

        • Arekushieru

          Okay, my mistake (okay, Lydia, this is just an aside, NOT directed at you; hmm, now what was that Robert What? was saying to me, earlier, on another thread…?). I TOTALLY misread what you were trying to say, there. I do agree, although I also agree with A.T.

        • nm

          haha yeah because so many more people are reading books.

    • A. T.

      rabid chihuahua thunderdome – bwa ha ha. That is *Awesome*.

    • alternatesteve2

      Sad, but damn true. I’ve seen that problem myself elsewhere on the Internet over the past couple of years.

  • http://mediajunkie.com/ xian

    so this talking about feminism all the time (something I do, fwiw), we should do it entirely without regard for context and primarily as non-sequitur bombs?

    • Arekushieru

      Uh, non-sequitur and without context? It’s experienced by women, DAILY. Kthx.

      • http://mediajunkie.com/ xian

        I don’t disagree. all the examples were witty but based on “a propos of nothing, please don’t harass, dude!”

        I can do this but it will usually be pretty awkward.

        • Shan

          I took the examples as a tongue in cheek way of pointing out that it can be done apropos of nothing (albeit awkwardly as you said) so it should be really easy to say something at an actually appropriate moment.

          It’s like the conversations I have with my kids. I don’t say “Nice job on that essay and by the way always use a condom!” But if the subject comes up and there’s a teachable moment, I’m going to use it. Even if I’m mad or frustrated. They’ll get it eventually and maybe start to understand WHY it makes me angry.

          • http://mediajunkie.com/ xian

            yes, good point. and I did take it, all kidding aside in that light, just like your condom example.

            men also need to practice speaking up because they often say that in the moment they didn’t know what to do when they saw something happening.

          • Shan

            The same thing happens to women, either when it happens TO us or when we hear other women make sexist remarks about men. We can all do better.

          • http://mediajunkie.com/ xian

            True, and a little practice in advance may help next time we find ourselves witnessing harassment or abuse.

      • fiona64

        He’s on our side, Are. Keep reading.

        • Arekushieru

          He may be, but he still made inaccurate assessments in his first comment.

  • http://mediajunkie.com/ xian

    someone calling out his bullshit turned a “nice guy” into an MRA. what a surprise.

  • http://sophomorecritic.blogspot.com/ SunnyDandThePurpleStuff

    I agree with pretty much everything you just said, EXCEPT that it’s slightly insulting to call or pretend men are “privileged” in gender politics. We are often perceived as aggressors and much more easy to be accused of sexual harrassment or violence and I guarantee you we can be shamed in just as many ways as woman can. I feel scared even speaking out as a guy in a comment section here because I just feel like it could come back to bite me for posting comments that might be perceived as mysoginistic or whatever.

    Nonetheless, I think a dialogue between men and women about these things are very important.

    • fiona64

      EXCEPT that it’s slightly insulting to call or pretend men are “privileged” in gender politics

      I don’t think that privilege means what you think it means. Please start here: https://www.isr.umich.edu/home/diversity/resources/white-privilege.pdf

      • http://sophomorecritic.blogspot.com/ SunnyDandThePurpleStuff

        That’s interesting, but the actual list presented there was of white/african-american differences. I think there are a lot of disadvantages men face as opposed to women that a feminist might not realize, but obviously, there are also a lot of disadvantages women face as opposed to men. Here’s to a greater dialogue and thought process from everyone on recognizing the unique challenges/disadvantages of each gender

        • fiona64

          Nuanced thinking is not high on your list of skills, is it?

          Since you appear to be unable to extrapolate, I’ll provide another source for you: http://amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/

          Enjoy.

          • http://sophomorecritic.blogspot.com/ SunnyDandThePurpleStuff

            OK, I’m going to detach myself from this. Why is it OK for you to be rude to me (and not the other way around?) if you’re looking to build a dialogue. Yes, I disagree with some of these points and, considering the poor state of things in the world with women getting harrassed and death threats and catcalled on the street, I would love to open up a dialogue, but do you honestly care? Do you want to actually have a dialogue about the dangerous things happening on the internetor do you just want to insult every guy who wants to talk with you because they don’t understand your theories? This idea of “you should all subscribe to my feminist theories before you enter a conversiiton with me” is convoluted

          • fiona64

            ::facepalm::

            Yes, it was so terrible to point out your evident inability to connect the dots without having someone else draw the picture for you. You are, evidently, item #46 on the list at the above link:

            46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.

            Why is it OK for you to be rude to me (and not the other way around?)

            More tone-policing? Really? Is there a reason why you can’t handle me calling a spade a f***ing shovel?

            You come waltzing in here with your long-winded version of “what about the menz,” and you expect to be greeted with martinis and dinner on the table?

            Heh. I suggest you learn to live with the disappointment.

          • http://sophomorecritic.blogspot.com/ SunnyDandThePurpleStuff

            It’s not tone-policing, it just indicates you’re dismissive of my viewpoint, so why have a discussion in the first place?
            Good luck accomplishing your goals of being right to every guy who comes your way.
            And on a more serious note, good luck solving these problems of highly disporportional cyberbullying and other such problems and I do sincerely hope the world becomes a better place in this sense

          • Unicorn Farm

            Dude, you’re in way over your head. Learn the basics and learn to speak with respect and then maybe someone will want to converse with you.

          • fiona64

            And now we can add mansplaining to the list.

            Good day to you.

          • Unicorn Farm

            We should have male privilege troll bingo:
            -mansplaining
            -tone policing
            -#notallmen
            -gaslighting
            -“i’m not privileged”
            -patriarchy is over
            -no silly, women just choose different jobs
            -what about the men!?
            In addition to the MRA troll bingo and the anti-choicer bingo

        • nm

          >there are a lot of disadvantages men face as opposed to women

          lol like what. specifically, disadvantages that aren’t a direct result of patriarchy.

    • Unicorn Farm

      “We are often perceived as aggressors and much more easy to be accused of sexual harrassment (sic) or violence”
      Women are afraid of actual harassment and/or violence. You’re afraid of being accused of it. You feel scared of commenting because people will perceive you as sexist. Women often get death threats and rape threats when they comment. Gee. I feel so bad for you. It’s clear you have no idea what male privilege even is. Maybe before you comment in a space that specializes in gender politics, you should read up on the basics.

      • http://sophomorecritic.blogspot.com/ SunnyDandThePurpleStuff

        I’m sorry, I’m trying to be civil, but you should go f— yourself, Unicorn Farm. if you don’t think that someone can experience trauma from a false allegation of harrassment, I am one of those cases and it hurts to talk about it so please respect that. .

        My life was ruined by a false allegation of stalking when I was 18. A malicious editor (he was male) put me on the front page of the college newspaper. It led to me withdrawing from school, having to higher a lawyer for thousands of dollars, it gave me triggers and trauma.

        I’m not suggesting or judging my experience against a woman and what’s been committed to her and completely empathize their pain, but to suggest that a guy can’t be hurt by gender politics because you read it in a book somewhere is just as hurtful to me. You’re not immune to sensitivity because you’re female.

        Whether I’ve read up to or subscribed to your dogma doesn’t invalidate my opinion.

        • Unicorn Farm

          “I’m sorry, I’m trying to be civil, but you should go f— yourself, Unicorn Farm”

          Hahaha, soooooooooo civil. My heart is warmed by your civility. I wasn’t even rude to you.

          OK. So, assuming I believe this horrible experience you claim you had*, that still doesn’t change the fact that *in general* women have a HELL of a lot more to fear from men than men have to fear from women. It also still doesn’t change the fact that you don’t understand what privilege is.

          “I read it in a book”

          Huh? I live gender politics every day. I never suggested a guy *can’t* be hurt by gender politics. Re-read what I wrote. You’re falsely accusing me of shit I didn’t say. And we hate false accusations, don’t we?

          “Whether I’ve read up to or subscribed to your dogma doesn’t invalidate my opinion.”
          Dude, male privilege isn’t “dogma.” Your opinion isn’t anything, it’s just…. a complete ignorance of the basics of gender politics.

          *I’d be more likely to believe you except that this entire shitty thread has been crawling with shitty men defending their sexism, so frankly I’m just skeptical.

          • http://sophomorecritic.blogspot.com/ SunnyDandThePurpleStuff

            Upon rereading the thread, you weren’t necessarily rude, but you pushed me past my breaking point. It would be like if I said “yeah, women can’t get raped”, someone who’d been raped would certainly be very angry at me.

            I’ve just been exposed to the male privilege checklist, and as a male who has been living as a male world, I don’t agree with all of the points on it. I mean have you had much of a dialogue on this or do you just talk to other women and make these lists. Again, I’d be happy to have a dialogue on it, but this conversation has already been quite straining.

            I’d suggest “Shitty men defending their sexism” is simply the way you look at the world and men (though I won’t defend all of them either).

            I speak from the point of view of someone who’s lately witnessing a lot of hate against women and hate against people who hate against women with dangerous consequences lately and just hope everyone male and female can work together towards solutions.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “but you pushed me past my breaking point.”

            Well, get help. Don’t lash out at me because I didn’t know that you had personally suffered from this ill. And to reiterate: I NEVER said that a false allegation was OK or good. Never.

            “I’ve just been exposed to the male privilege checklist, and as a male who has been living as a male world, I don’t agree with all of the points on it”

            Of course you don’t. You have the privilege, so you’re blind to it.

            “I’d suggest “Shitty men defending their sexism” is simply the way you look at the world and men (though I won’t defend all of them either).”
            Nope. Read this goddamned thread. BEHOLD the sexism. Read the other threads all over this website where men’s rights losers come onto this tread and preach sexism. Why, a few hours ago we had some man come on to this site and explain to us that men don’t respect women because they are merely objects to be conquered; sexual playthings. Oh, but noooooooooooooo thankfully Mr. Purple Drank or whatever the fuck your name is is polite enough to suggest that *I’m just misinterpreting everything* and *nothing I perceive is real.* Fuck you, buddy. Here’s another term for you to look up: Gaslighting.
            How would you feel if I told you your little false-allegation trauma wasn’t actually a big deal at all, that you don’t have ptsd, that you AREN’T triggered- that it’s just your fault for looking at the world that way. That would be some bullshit, wouldn’t it?

          • Unicorn Farm

            again, because you keep editing your posts after getting responses:

            “I mean have you had much of a dialogue on this or do you just talk to other women and make these lists.”

            I have had *tons* of dialog on these issues. I don’t just sit around on the internet talking to women and making lists. Neither I nor Fiona made that list. The concept of privilege is well studied and well articulated in academic literature. It’s not simply an internet creation. The fact that you don’t know this means you’re not qualified to even begin having a reason conversation on this. This means you need to LISTEN. Just be quiet, read, and listen, and learn.

          • fiona64

            As I just said to him, if he’d read the damned article, he would have known that the male privilege list was written by a man.

            He’s doing a fabulous list of proving my oft-stated belief that those who have the most privilege are correspondingly the most blind to it.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Indeed. The reactions are so predictable. But, I don’t know I’m privileged, so it can’t be!!! Derp. But, something bad happened to me once! Sigh.
            I really need to take that break from this nonsense…………

          • fiona64

            I mean have you had much of a dialogue on this or do you just talk to other women and make these lists.

            If you’d actually read the article with the male privilege list, you would have realized that it was written by ::wait for it:: a man.

        • Unicorn Farm

          and because you’ve edited your post….

          “I guess you don’t care about those women on the “I hate feminism” tumbler.”

          Those women are reacting to straw-man versions of what feminism stands for. Plus, I don’t do my learnin’ on the tumblr.

          “And yeah, there is plenty of male equivalents of slut-shaming. particularly carried out by ppl on these boards:You tend to trash most guys in this comment section”

          I certainly have not *sl!t shamed* a single male on this board. I have been aggressive, for sure, but maybe take two minutes a READ the sort of filth these men have been posting for DAYS. Maybe read the sort of hatred for women that gets spewed by men on this site every damned day before you get on my case about how I respond to it. Yeah, I *will* trash some man who comes on this site and tells me that I need to quit being so uppity or I need to close my legs or I need to be nicer to the Menz. Cope with it.

          • http://sophomorecritic.blogspot.com/ SunnyDandThePurpleStuff

            I hear you on some of these points and I’m sorry that other guys are spewing hate towards you. It would be awful if someone said my experience wasn’t real, and I’m not suggesting your experiences aren’t real.
            I should remind you that the women on “I hate feminism” are real and their opinions count to. My step-sister had very bad experiences with feminists on her campus and joined that site and I would have trouble with anyone saying that her experiences don’t count.
            I’m just saying we all should have a say in gender politics.

          • fiona64

            I’m just saying we all should have a say in gender politics.

            No one has said otherwise. However, I think it would be fair to say that men are represented *plenty* in all areas of life, wouldn’t you? And telling women how they should talk about women’s issues (as you and many others have done) is not about “making sure men are represented” or “have a say.” It’s about *silencing women.* How can you not see that?

          • Unicorn Farm

            You really don’t get this, do you?

            “I should remind you that the women on “I hate feminism” are real and their opinions count to. (sic)”

            You “should remind me” of nothing, and you can drop your condescending tone right now. As I explained in my previous post, the women on the “Women Against Feminism” tumblr are not rebutting or reacting to positions that are part of the feminist position. They are attacking straw men. Do you know what straw men are? You should look into it. That’s why I’m not super concerned that their opinions are providing a take down of the evils of feminism- because their opinions don’t actually address feminism. Open your eyes and look around.
            The only reason these stupid women can even take pictures of themselves with their little signs and put them on the internet is……….. feminism.

            “I’m just saying we all should have a say in gender politics.”
            Cool. Different voices are welcome. But before you open your mouth, maybe take a minute to *learn the basics*. It’s clear that you haven’t done this.

        • alternatesteve2

          “My life was ruined by a false allegation of stalking when I was 18. A malicious editor (he was male) put me on the front page of the college newspaper. It led to me withdrawing from school, having to higher a lawyer for thousands of dollars, it gave me triggers and trauma.

          I’m sorry that shit happened to you, dude. Hell, I’ve been attacked and falsely accused of some pretty hardcore shit myself on the ‘Net(not on here, though, this is my first time here) but even though that sucked, that’s honestly small change compared to what you lived through in college. =(

        • nm

          yeah but was your false accusation contingent on your being male? what i mean to say is, it’s like 99% women who get death threats online, get harassed on the street, etc, everything this article is talking about. (cisgender) males just don’t experience the same thing, and i’m willing to guess that your gender had little to nothing to do with your particular case.

          >male equivalents of slut-shaming.

          nope.

          • http://sophomorecritic.blogspot.com/ SunnyDandThePurpleStuff

            No, my gender had a lot to do with my case. The accusers (the bf of the girl who claims that I stalked her, what actually happened was i accidentally walked in on her naked) would obviously not have perceived me as a threat if I was female. The labels of being perverted or skeevy or sketchy were definitely strong stigmas and it was both males an females doing the stigmatizing. Stigmas assocaited with sex for males can be very strong.

            I can point out a number of pressures and negatives that that men are under

            Of course, getting death threats and stuff is pretty bizarre too
            I don’t blame womankind or anything, but that’s just my experience.

          • Arekushieru

            Men are being discriminated against because they ARE EXPECTED TO NOT ACT LIKE WOMEN. Y’know, the dirty feminine stuff?

    • A. T.

      This might be not the best place for education, I’m afraid. Shakesville has a nice Feminism 101 section that might answer some of your questions. Feministing is good for such issues. *thinks* The Good Men Project seems to have turned itself around.

      • http://sophomorecritic.blogspot.com/ SunnyDandThePurpleStuff

        First of all, thank you for being civil/respectful! The women I’ve encountered who are feminists are very dismissive of me. I’m not looking to be a better feminist so much as ascertain whether the current form of “feminism” does more harm or good for men and women. This doesn’t mean I support any mysoginistic movement, I just find the recent heightened violence and tensions on both sides troubling.

        • Shan

          Which feminists have been doxxing people and making death/rape threats?

          • A. T.

            TERF’s, much to my horror and disgust.

        • A. T.

          You’re welcome. Nice is kinda my thing. :) To borrow from Reza Aslan, feminism is a bit like religion in that it depends on the person. It’s amazing in some people. It’s less amazing in others. Much good is done with (economic justice, prison abolition, etc), but there’s still concerns about racism et all.

          My concern with the MRM is I find much less of the good to balance out the bad.

  • badphairy

    I feel like I’m watching a slightly more advanced troll sporting a female name trying to shut the discussion down.

    • fiona64

      BINGO!

  • Harry Dresden

    The patronizing tone of the whole article is not really going to reach the good dude-bros that are supposedly her intended audience. Treating people like idiots is not the best way to motivate them to do activism.

    • fiona64

      Thank you for being about the dozenth person to tell women how they should talk about women’s issues, Harry. Because “how ladies address things” is more important that the substance at-hand.

      Ye gods.

      • Harry Dresden

        I didn’t read the comments. Still, if she just want an excuse to be all snark, that’s fine. Just don’t post it as advise for men, who aren’t going to read it. Just let everyone know it’s a rant.

        • fiona64

          I think that whizzing sound you just heard was the point going over your head.

          • Harry Dresden

            You’re the one being obtuse.

          • fiona64

            No, sweetie, I’m not. You’ve made your “you ladies need to talk about things in ways that don’t upset the menfolk” position abundantly clear.

          • Harry Dresden

            It’s not upsetting, really. It just makes me indifferent to the article and her, and therefore any point she’s trying to make.

            I’m sure that you love it though, when people talk to you like that, pat you on the head and treat you like you’re stupid.

            I’ll pass.

          • fiona64

            Your opening gambit was to tell women how they should talk about women’s issues, and now you’re upset because you got called out on it?

            Boo-fucking-hoo.

          • Harry Dresden

            This is where you’re truly obtuse. My opening statement, not gambit (whatever), was how the author would be more successful speaking to an audience of men. This would apply to any issue, women’s or otherwise. Know your audience. This is communication 101.

          • fiona64

            The author is a ::wait for it:: woman talking about ::wait for it:: women’s issues. And. You. Are. Telling. Her. To. Do. It. In. A. Way. Of. Which. You. Approve.

            My opening statement, not gambit (whatever), was how the author would be more successful speaking to an audience of men.

            Thank you for proving my point. It’s all about how this female author should write about women’s issues so that you don’t get your fee-fees hurt. Jesus wept; do you not even read your own words?

            Now you’ve moved on from tone-policing to mansplaining. If this were some sort of a drinking game, we’d all be blotto by now.

          • Harry Dresden

            Your lack of intelligence is astounding. I get that you want to make me into an evil person, that’s fine, I really don’t care if it makes you feel better.

            Still, you refuse to see my point because you know that I’m right. No person likes being talked down to. I would guess that you don’t either.

            And my feelings aren’t hurt, as stated, I’m indifferent. People who are disrespectful don’t get the luxury of me feeling anything about what they’re saying, so I’m not proving your point at all and you’ve still failed to address mine.

          • fiona64

            You really are determined to be an ass, aren’t you?

            Well, rock on, little man. You’re just proving the author of this piece to be correct.

          • Harry Dresden

            Whatever. My point obviously stands since you can’t counter it. The fact remains that this was a call to men for activism, and on that score it was a colossal fail because it was disrespectful to them as an audience.

            There is also a hypocrisy here. You say that it’s not okay for men to suggest better ways for the author to do outreach to men she suposedly wants help from. Yet the title of the piece suggests how the author presumes to tell men how they should talk to their buddies.

            There is no communication when information is only going one way. Successful communication only exists when there is a continuous feedback loop in which both parties are listening. You have demonstrated that this is not part of your repertoire and I find that to be the case with most but not all feminists.

            I’m really fine if feminists don’t want to listen to men about how best to communicate with them, but then they shouldn’t expect us to listen to them either.

            It’s really quite that simple.

          • fiona64

            More mansplaining. Way to go, Harry. I’m grateful to you for continuing to prove my point.

          • Harry Dresden

            Whatever let’s you only see things from your feminist world view. Knock yourself out.

          • Arekushieru

            Yup, ‘feminist worldview’. You just proved our point right there. Feminism is only good if it can be presented in a way that doesn’t men’s pwecious little feefees. Which doesn’t do feminism any good, because men have never had to worry about not hurting women’s pwecious widdle feefees when making their own arguments. If a woman who is a feminist talks to a man the way they talk to a woman, she’s a ‘bitch’ or just not being polite enough, whereas in the case of a man, you’re being ‘all manly and STUDLY, oh, my!’. Equality means that in order for ANYONE to gain respect they have to treat the OTHER PERSON with respect, whether you are female OR male. Treating women as second class citizens, then expecting them to be all wesPEKful about it, is NOT practicing respect. Kthxbainow.

          • HeilMary1

            LOL!

          • expect_resistance

            Exactly.

          • Arekushieru

            Her opening gambit? …Came after yours. It was NOT polite, and total mansplaining to the CORE.

    • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

      Forgive us for not being sufficiently polite and pleasant while suggesting that the internet not be a venue for receiving death threats from strangers.

      • Harry Dresden

        I’m actually with you there. It was foolish of me to hope for something better. On the other hand, “the world is what we make it”.

        • http://nototherwise.com/ Jessica Brookman @ N*O

          Indeed, which is why writing articles about the topic — in tones that grab the attention of their readers — is an important step towards creating a world where this is no longer happening.

          Funny, that. :)

          • Harry Dresden

            To me it’s resembles someone just preaching to the choir, but if it works for you, I respect that.

          • Arekushieru

            Really? I don’t see how that is the case. Perhaps you would like to cite some areas of the article where it makes you think that?

          • aleksthegreat

            You cannot create a world where this doesn’t happen. People can’t be controlled without force.

          • Arekushieru

            Which is the whole POINT. If people cannot be controlled without force, then there is a REASON that women feel fearful. Oh, but right, you can’t extrapolate very well.

        • Arekushieru

          Um, that IS where politeness and pleasantness has gotten us. SFS. You want us to be polite to bullies, it only makes the bully, and those around them, think their behaviour is acceptable, after all. And that is ALL it has ever done.

          • aleksthegreat

            I’m sorry, when have feminists been polite?

          • expect_resistance

            I’m a feminist meanie, do you have a problem? Sit down and shut up.

          • Arekushieru

            When they thought that men would be polite to them. Once they realized that they wouldn’t feminists stopped being polite. Reading comprehension, PLEASE. Oh, but that’s right, you have a big hypocritical stick up your ass, so what makes it good for the goose is NOT good for the gander. Right.

          • A. T.

            I’ve been both. I will you tell that being nice was not a cure. Awful people were usually nicer to me, but they were not magically decent people. They still thought women shouldn’t vote or whatever their issue was.

            Some of them were still awful. It does help in personal interactions, sometimes. It’s not a cure though.

          • Harry Dresden

            Generally if you want people to help you then you don’t go around ridiculing them. There are usually better ways. So if that was her intent, it was a fail. It’s fine if this is just a rant. It looked like a call to activism but I’m fine if we’re not supposed to take this seriously.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Why do you keep making excuses for your refusal to treat women better?
            You and all other men who are on here whining that the author wasn’t *niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice* to you are just looking for reasons to dismiss her point and it’s pathetic to watch you try to hide it.

          • Harry Dresden

            I actually agree with a lot of her points, never said that I didn’t actually, and for the record I treat all of the women in my life very well. I don’t condone treating anyone terribly, which is why I question the author’s approach.

            If this is just an echo chamber where everyone is supposed to nod and agree with the author’s contempt for the audience that she’s trying to get help from, then ok. I apologize, I mistook this for an actual call to action from men. Instead it seems that nobody is supposed to take this seriously.

            Generally people stop listening if they’re being ridiculed. Go figure.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “I actually agree with a lot of her points, never said that I didn’t actually”

            Uhuh.

            “and for the record I treat all of the women in my life very well.”

            Yep, I have a black friend, too.

            “I don’t condone treating anyone terribly, which is why I question the author’s approach.”

            Sure. Sure that’s why you’re here. Even though all you’ve done all over this thread is tone-troll.

            “If this is just an echo chamber where everyone is supposed to nod and agree with the author’s contempt for the audience that she’s trying to get help from, then ok.”

            Look around. Does this website look like an echo-chamber to you?

            “I apologize, I mistook this for an actual call to action from men. Instead it seems that nobody is supposed to take this seriously.”
            You’re doing it again. Dismissing the message because its delivery hurt your Pwecious Man Feelings. You could just say “hmm, I agree with the message, but don’t love the delivery.” But no, you’ve chosen to apply your efforts to using the author’s delivery method to invalidating her words.

          • Harry Dresden

            “Why do you keep making excuses for your refusal to treat women better?” I didn’t. This is you building strawmen. It’s you putting on that me so you can have a boogeyman to get upset at. I never said that.

            “Dismissing the message because its delivery hurt your Pwecious Man Feelings.” I actually don’t care. One would have to do a lot more to hurt my feelings.

            “Yep, I have a black friend, too.” You don’t? Because I have several black friends but that really is a terrible point that you can’t validate and doesn’t have anything to do with this.

            “You could just say “hmm, I agree with the message, but don’t love the delivery.” If I did, you and others like you would still need a target for your rage and hate and could never actually agree with that notion. You would maintain that there is nothing wrong with the tone and proceed with the hate-fest because you simply need boogeymen.

            My point is not wrong and you simply can’t stand that and have to go for ad hom attacks because you don’t have anything else. I get it. This is why only 20% of the US self identifies as Feminist. They see the sanctioned hate by the movement’s ideological extremists, which uses tone that’s similar and/or worse than what’s in this article and they take a pass.

            If Feminism wants to be a populist movement then at some point it will need to realize this and hopefully start to use tactics that appeal to the populace, however from your comments and others on this thread, you clearly are not ready for that yet.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “I never said that.”

            Never said what? I’m not pointing out what you *said*, I’m pointing out why you’re saying what you’re saying.

            “”Yep, I have a black friend, too.” You don’t? Because I have several black friends but that really is a terrible point that you can’t validate and doesn’t have anything to do with this.”

            It’s clear my point went right over your head.

            “”You could just say “hmm, I agree with the message, but don’t love the delivery.” If I did, you and others like you would still need a target for your rage and hate and could never actually agree with that notion. You would maintain that there is nothing wrong with the tone and proceed with the hate-fest because you simply need boogeymen.”

            There we go. There’s the mansplaining man rage that shows you were never interested in having a discussion in good-faith.

            “My point is not wrong and you simply can’t stand that and have to go for ad hom attacks because you don’t have anything else. I get it. This is why only 20% of the US self identifies as Feminist. They see the sanctioned hate by the movement’s ideological extremists, which uses tone that’s similar and/or worse than what’s in this article and they take a pass.’

            There’s some more mansplain-y man-rage! BTW- I never said one ad hom to you.

            “If Feminism wants to be a populist movement then at some point it will need to realize this and hopefully start to use tactics that appeal to the populace, however from your comments and others on this thread, you clearly are not ready for that yet.”

            Lol, feminism wants to be a populist movement? Huh?

            Do you not understand how everything you say here basically translates to: “Say your message they way *I* want you too! Say it so it doesn’t hurt MY FEELINGS or condescend to ME! me me me me me! The important part is how your message makes meeeeeee feel.”

          • Harry Dresden

            Wow, you are slow. It’s not about me, obviously Feminism doesn’t need me, personally.

            “It’s clear my point went right over your head.” Oh I got it, it was just a stupid point that didn’t warrant a serious response.

            “”Say your message they way *I* want you too! Say it so it doesn’t hurt MY FEELINGS or condescend to ME!”

            Really, my feelings aren’t hurt, you’re not getting it. Again, you’re putting that on me, I’m not saying that, you’re assuming that. I’ll correct if for you though. Say your message so that it can be heard, by everyone.

            This is why I’m right and you’re just trying to make me someone I’m not. The point is just not controversial and you can’t stand that so you have to make stuff up about me. Simply put, if you want help from someone then it’s best not to show contempt for them. Eezy peezy.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “Oh I got it, it was just a stupid point that didn’t warrant a serious response.”

            Did you get it? Because if you did, you wouldn’t have written this non-responsive word-salad: “You don’t? Because I have several black friends but that really is a terrible point that you can’t validate and doesn’t have anything to do with this.”

            “Really, my feelings aren’t hurt, you’re not getting it. Again, you’re putting that on me, I’m not saying that, you’re assuming that. I’ll correct if for you though. Say your message so that it can be heard, by everyone.”

            Idiot. I am not saying, nor do I care whether, you, personally are actually offended by this. What I am doing is using *your* words (and your purpose) on this board and paraphrasing them to show that all you’re saying is that you’re not going to listen to the message because it was delivered in a way that “offends” you/ men. All you’re doing is saying that you’re not going to listen because you don’t like the tone, and telling women that they need to say it differently for you to listen. Can you not see what is problematic about that?

            “Say your message so that it can be heard, by everyone.”

            So that the message can be heard? What part of the message can you *not hear*? Go on, tell us. I think what you meant is not that you can’t *hear* the message, but rather that you are *choosing* not to listen because it wasn’t delivered in a way that *you* deem appropriate.
            You’re STILL doing it- coming onto this space and demanding that a message be delivered to your precious little man ears in a certain way. Can you not see what is problematic with that?

          • Harry Dresden

            I can see that you’re the one mansplaining and are actually ignorant of the term. So I guess that I’ll have to mansplain it to you. When a person, man or woman, tells you the best way to communicate with them it’s because they are the expert in that area. You are (Wo)mansplaining when you presume to know better and tell them so. Look in the mirror because you are what you hate.

            The author’s message was not lost on me and I said as much. Still, as a guy reading this I can tell that it’s not optimal and could drive away more men than it would attract because of its derogatory attitude toward them. My critique is on target despite all of your accusations about me. Again, and this is very simple to understand, treat people with basic human decency and they will respond in kind. Treat them like crap, and they won’t, no matter how right you are.

            So the author has a to make that choice. Does she want guys to help or does she just want to rant?

            That is, literally, all that I’m saying, and again, I’m right on that score.

            And BTW, you’re decades late with the shaming tactics. That crap went out of style during what, second wave? Guys are over that and it just doesn’t work anymore, especially on the internet. Debate my assertion with substantive points or not, but don’t embarrass your own cause.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “I can see that you’re the one mansplaining and are actually ignorant of the term.”

            Bahahahahhahahahaah

            “When a person, man or woman, tells you the best way to communicate with them it’s because they are the expert in that area.”

            hahahahahhahahaha… oh man are you ever missing the point.

            “I can tell that it’s not optimal and could drive away more men than it would attract because of its derogatory attitude toward them”

            So it drives away some assholes. Big fucking deal. Why don’t you point out where the *derogatory attitude* is. Specific sentences. I’ll wait.

            “My critique is on target despite all of your accusations about me”

            You keep saying that, and you keep being wrong. Because you are missing the bigger picture- that it is not *appropriate* for you to sit here and whine about the tone of the article. You are not providing welcomed advise.

            “treat people with basic human decency and they will respond in kind.”

            “Ok fine. How is this article not treating men with basic human decency. Point out the passages. I’ll wait.

            “Treat them like crap, and they won’t, no matter how right you are.”

            Like you’ve been doing all over this board, insulting people’s intelligence and bitching and moaning about the meanie author’s tone? Hypocrite much?

            And BTW, you’re decades late with the shaming tactics. That crap went out of style during what, second wave? Guys are over that and it just doesn’t work anymore, especially on the internet. Debate my assertion with substantive points or not, but don’t embarrass your own cause.”
            Debate your assertions with substantive points? I have continuously told you about how you are tone policing and tone trolling (as have other posters), and all you’ve done is whimper about how your feelings aren’t actually hurt and we’re straw manning you, but that it’s still ok to ignore the author’s points because we weren’t nice. You’re out of your element here, bro. Go back to commenting on thought catalog articles written by tweens.

          • Harry Dresden

            “Bahahahahhahahahaah” Not actually an argument. It’s admission that you’re out of things to say.

            “hahahahahhahahaha… oh man are you ever missing the point.” Another fail. Again, nothing substantive here.

            Whimpering? Hardly.

            I think you’re out of your element, here or anywhere. I don’t even know if you could handle comments on TC. Try Reddit, maybe.

          • Unicorn Farm

            No, not really out of things to say. I’ve just said them all before. Read my posting history on this thread. You’ve presented nothing new and interesting, you can barely write a comprehensive argument much less an interesting one, and I’m bored with you.
            You’ve reduced your posts to me to ad homs, which you balefully decried in one of your first posts. You’re a whining hypocrite and I’m bored.
            Pro-tip. Laughing at your bullshit doesn’t mean your bullshit is correct. It only means that what you’ve written is so ridiculous that it merits nothing more than laughter.

          • Harry Dresden

            Yawn. I’m sorry, did you make another vapid point without addressing my original assertion, accuse me again feeling butt hurt about something but having no proof, fail to use shaming tactics effectively, fail to sell your own BS, reduce yourself to ad hom attacks which, regretfully I only then had to adopt as a tactic. If you want to go, please do. You’re boring and unoriginal. Don’t let the door hit you……….

            ;). Ah, well, you get the idea. Or?

          • Unicorn Farm

            Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! Dude, quit whining. I’ve addressed your “substantive point” numerous times. And I’m not going anywhere. I’m a regular commenter on this website. You’re the one who came in her to shower us with your Male Wisdom and no one’s interested.

          • Harry Dresden

            “Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!”

            Listen to you. Classic flailing. I’m certainly not a regular here, that’s for sure. I ended up here on a link from a partner site, so sue me.

            It’s also nice to know you speak for everyone, and I care not whether one is interested in my comment(s). This section is for people to share ideas regardless. It’s really too bad if you don’t like it. Get over it.

            And you never addressed my point. You’re actually bored because I felt the need to stay on point because you were so clearly trying to make it about bunch of stuff I never said (or felt, why you kept bring that up I’ll never know). Whatever, I tend to slowed down because you failed to understand basic concepts. That’s not “Male Wisdom” it’s just called common sense; and why common sense would be such a threat to you is definitely something you might want to ask yourself.

            FWIW I’m a very liberal Democrat that is using my vote tomorrow to vote against every shitty GOP candidate in my state that’s trying to limit reproductive rights for women like they’ve tried to do in many states around the country already.

            I get that you don’t like the point I made about tone but it was accurate and fair despite your hyper-defensiveness. I also get your need to demonize me in order to have someplace to direct your anger (and you do have anger issues); and if I can server in that regard, that’s fine, I’ll be your demon, it really doesn’t matter to me. Needless to say, you are correct, I never frequent this site so I doubt we’ll deal with each other in the future, which may be just as well.

          • Unicorn Farm

            OMG. why are you still here. This is not “flailing,” this is me being BORED WITH YOU.

            I addressed your “point’ over and over again. see- here are some examples:

            “You keep saying that, and you keep being wrong. Because you are missing the bigger picture- that it is not *appropriate* for you to sit here and whine about the tone of the article. You are not providing welcomed advise.
            ……
            So that the message can be heard? What part of the message can you *not hear*? Go on, tell us. I think what you meant is not that you can’t *hear* the message, but rather that you are *choosing* not to listen because it wasn’t delivered in a way that *you* deem appropriate. You’re STILL doing it- coming onto this space and demanding that a message be delivered to your precious little man ears in a certain way. Can you not see what is problematic with that?
            ……………
            Dismissing the message because its delivery hurt your Pwecious Man Feelings. You could just say “hmm, I agree with the message, but don’t love the delivery.” But no, you’ve chosen to apply your efforts to using the author’s delivery method to invalidating her words”

            But you kept on ignoring it, adding in even more abusive language as you went along. So I got tired of it. You’ve got a lot of pompousness for someone who clearly can’t even grasp the basics of what we’re talking about, honey.
            ………..
            You keep claiming that “your point” is right about the tone of this article, and when I’ve asked you to give me sentences from this article that you believe are patronizing or insulting, you’ve failed to. I assume that means, per your style of “debate” that there actually *aren’t* any offensive passages.

            BTW, don’t really care who you vote for. Want a fucking cookie? A head pat? This is what we’re talking about on this thread- being expected to kiss you precious male ass because you’re being SO benevolent as to not make shit worse for us. I’m supposed to kiss your ass because you’re NOT voting to make my life worse, according to you. THANKS.

          • Harry Dresden

            Ok, I just skimmed because you’re so wrapped around the axle with hate that you can only make the same points over and over again. I’m not “demanding” anything, where do you get this stuff? Precious man feelings? Sorry, the shaming doesn’t do anything, we’ve covered that.

            I know you don’t care who I vote for, I could never have hoped for that. I only meant to suggest that if you hadn’t been blinded by your anger at me from your opening comment, we might have realized that we actually had more in common than we thought. You seem to prefer the hate so please, embrace it if you wish. Good luck with that.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Wrapped around the axle with hate? Blinded by my anger? Preferring hate?
            Calm yourself. I’m just sick and tired of ignorant men who don’t listen and feel free to come into spaces, shoot off their mouths, and then bitch and moan and insult people when they aren’t welcomed with open arms. That includes you. You haven’t conducted yourself like a person who is an ally. Don’t you dare blame me for failing to “realize we had more in common than we thought” when all you did was present an ignorant, bitter, abusive, condescending side of yourself.

          • Harry Dresden

            Going with the righteous outrage now? Knock yourself out. So is this a ‘private’ space now where only certain people are welcome? Get over yourself.

            Ignorant? No. Bitter? Hardly. Abusive, uh no. Condescending, yeah, guilty as charged. You went there first and regrettably I followed. I hope you have blood pressure medication. If not, steal some for your own sake. Or can I send you a happy kitten video? (Yes, condescending, insulting, yada yada).

          • Unicorn Farm

            the guy who accused me of being “wrapped around the axle with hate” is accusing ME of righteous anger? Lol.

            “Ignorant? No.”

            Thoroughly. You were corrected by me and Fiona.
            “Bitter? Hardly. Abusive, uh no.”

            Absolutely. You called me slow, you called other posters “obtuse”, you went on this fucked up screed about me being blinded with hate and rage (hint, its called caps lock for emphasis), told me “I tend to slowed down because you failed to understand basic concepts, “I don’t even know if you could handle comments on TC,” told another poster that her “lack of intelligence is astounding.” You even admitted that you were being an a**hole.

            “Condescending, yeah, guilty as charged. You went there first and regrettably I followed”

            As you can see from the above list of comments, you have been abusive long before I have. You were rude to other posters before I ever addressed you. In fact, your first post was this condescending little gem:

            “The patronizing tone of the whole article is not really going to reach the good dude-bros that are supposedly her intended audience. Treating people like idiots is not the best way to motivate them to do activism”

            And yet you expected me to treat your hostile, condescending ass with any respect. Hmm.

            Now leave me alone. I told you a while ago that I’m not interested in talking to you any more.

          • Harry Dresden

            Actually you and the other posters took the condescending and invective path first and I responded in kind (see how that works?). You both could have disagreed with my original comment that is factual and correct. But your anger got the best of you and you chose to go for the throat. With each insult you slung, I just slung it back. That’s just easy to do and it apparently was what you wanted.

            Now you can’t take it?

            Definitely you need a cute kitten video. It’s my understanding that you people like cats.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Oh for FUCKS SAKE. Leave me alone. You are so fucking annoying. You’ve been a dick from the moment you came on this site. Your first post wasn’t “factual and correct”- it was your opinion. Both of us disagreed, and you just kept repeating yourself and moving the goal posts and started to insult and condescend to us. It’s not a question of “can’t take it,” its matter of being tired of engaging with your juvenile behavior and your shitty personality and your incessant need to patronize women who disagree with you. Flagged for harassment. Do not address me again.

          • Harry Dresden

            I’m not harassing you, I’m merely responding to your posts. And it was not me that targeted you with the hate. If I’m that bothersome then why did you engage me in the first place?

          • Unicorn Farm

            Flagged for harassment. I asked you to leave me alone. Repeatedly.

          • Harry Dresden

            Then for the record, I’m asking that you leave me alone as well.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “Simply put, if you want help from someone then it’s best not to show contempt for them. Eezy peezy”
            Also. Wanting “help” from someone isn’t necessarily the same thing as asking men to be decent human beings and speak out against other men’s shitty behavior. Helping me means going above and beyond to do something for me. Telling your shitty friends not to make rape jokes in my presence is the bare minimum, and you should be called out for failing to do so.

          • Harry Dresden

            That’s fair. So this justifies the proactive/preemtive misandry and contempt for the male audience, those that might be redeemable somehow. I don’t necessarily agree with that approach, I think there are better approaches, but I get where you’re coming from.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Show the misandry and contempt. Go on. Specific sentences. I’ll wait.
            And yeah, honestly, it does. I’m sorry dude bro, but I’m sick of sitting here and being treated like shit by men, and then when women speak out about it, getting told that we weren’t good girls and weren’t nice enough when we called men out for treating us like shit, so now they’re not going to listen. It’s BS and I’m tired of it.

          • Arekushieru

            Uh, wait to go. The point just went SWOOSH over your head. We have BEEN nice, but look what it gets us. Once we step out of that nice mode in order for ourselves to be finally HEARD, here come the cishet white dude not nice bros to straighten the little wimmen out and put them back in their ‘proper’ place.

          • Harry Dresden

            Suit yourself. BTW someone already made that point.

        • Unicorn Farm

          So, because you seem to have such a *good* idea of exactly the tone the author *should* have taken, why don’t you give us a write up of how you would have politely but effectively conveyed this message to men?
          Go on. Inquiring minds want to know.

          • Harry Dresden

            Treat them the way you would your brother, husband, father or son. That’s always a good start. :)

          • Shan

            I dunno about anybody else, but I use a LOT more snark with my family than Grimes used in this article.

          • Harry Dresden

            I can see that if there is a lot of trust between you, and that’s great.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Same here. Maybe it’s because I’m a lawyer and we’re all snarky, maybe it’s because my family are Yankees… but honestly. This isn’t a snarky/rude/patronizing article. I really don’t know what all these man babies are bitching and moaning about.

          • Shan

            Well, we’re Scottish-Irish so we can’t help it.

            I think the article is kind of going for the dude-bros and intimating that they’re probably not that “fart-talking” guy if they’re also “not that guy” who *doesn’t* speak up when someone’s shit-talking, i.e., not that human scab.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Oh, no no my friend. Remember, I’m slow. So I want you to spell it out for me. Tell me exactly what parts of this article are condescending for your sensitive fee-fees and write it exactly as you believe it should be delivered.
            Patronizing little jerk.

      • aleksthegreat

        You have no right to police the internet.

        • nm

          >right

          i don’t think you know what that word means.

        • Arekushieru

          And, of course, like the hypocrite you are, you totally missed the point. First you tell women to handle their own lives, and THEN you tell them that they have no right to ‘police’ the internet, and you have the AUDACITY to claim that this shit doesn’t happen to women because of men like YOU?

        • A. T.

          Even if I look really good in this uniform?

    • A. T.

      I don’t this group is interested in education.

      • Harry Dresden

        My mistake ;)

        • A. T.

          I sympathize, because I do community education. It means that I have to be quick to switch up my approach. If I’m approaching working class people to talk about domestic violence, I’m not going to throw feminist theory in there. I’m going to watch tone, etc.

          I can definitely do it and easily. I’m guessing that here they don’t want to have to do that.

          If it helps though, some of us do and can do that.

          Does it fix the people that make death threats? No. Middle of the road folk? Sometimes.

      • Harry Dresden

        The group that she’s appealing to for help?

        • A. T.

          The comment section as far as doing community education.

  • Shan

    I think there’s a lot of this going on here.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-3aHEhML5Q

  • Matthew William Millett

    why do you think they actually care about being friends with someone who doesn’t agree? Especially depending on the location, if I am at your place and you don’t like my behavior feel free to point it out, in mine, don’t like it, get the F out or else you know. While you may think its other peoples job to get involved in other peoples business to try and make you feel safer its really not, and if your so afraid of being threatened on the internet, buy a gun.

    • fiona64

      Must be nice to be a privileged white dudebro who can dismiss the reality of women’s lives so easily …

      • aleksthegreat

        I feel sorry for you.

        • Arekushieru

          I feel sorry for YOU. Hypocritical jackass.

        • fiona64

          Why, because I called this guy out on his bullshit?

          Whatever.

    • A. T.

      Yes. My gun will fix the internet. Good thinking there.

  • Dermot Archie Mac Conville

    Well, this is horribly sexist, misinformed and insulting. Most hypocritical thing I’ve read all week

    • Arekushieru

      No, you white dudebros are the most hypocritical people I’ve seen in my life. Sorry, but there is no sexism, only discrimination (which is all a part of misogyny, anyways), against men.

      • Dermot Archie Mac Conville

        Can I ask you why you assume I’m a white “dude bro”?

        • Arekushieru

          Ah, gee, can’t think of a WOMAN whose name is Dermot Archie, but, hey, maybe your parents were just having fun with your name, at the time.

          • Dermot Archie Mac Conville

            I’m not denying that I’m male, I’m asking you why you think I’m the dudebro type of person.

  • zx74125800

    Not sure what to say! Do you really believe anything in your writing? If so, I am dumbfounded, “dude.. I do my feminism at the bar. I do my feminism at the coffee shop. Sometimes I make feminism funny, and sometimes I make it serious. Hell, I practice talking to my catsabout feminism. I wasn’t born this way. It’s taken me years”.

    Do you really believe any of this? I thought this was satire, but it was not.
    I would also ask you and other gender feminists, watch this very funny video. Truth maybe the inverse from what your group actually understands or does not understand, as the case maybe:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75aX9mlipiY&app=desktop

    • fiona64

      I stopped watching 10 seconds in, when the dudebro claimed that harassment was
      compliments.”

      I’m sure it’s a goddamned laugh-riot when it’s not happening to you every day, eh, dudebro? Pro-tip: women are not put on this planet for you to opine on their appearance (for good or ill) aloud to your friends, or for you to walk up to us and demand that we “smile!” or anything else.

      • Shan

        The video is such a *faceplam* of not getting the point of the original one.

      • aleksthegreat

        Men aren’t put on this planet to fix the world for you or be your fear porn subjects either. Handle your own life.

        • Arekushieru

          Then tell men that they aren’t put on this planet to MAKE the world unsafe or women fearful. So, we have to handle our own lives, but men are unable to handle their own, so we have to do it for them, and you don’t see WHY you’re such a fucking hypocrite?

          • A. T.

            I was just thinking that. When we handle rape and death threats they tantrum. Misandry, blah, blah, blah.

        • fiona64

          You’ve never actually met a woman IRL, have you?

        • A. T.

          And you whine when I do that. You’re never happy.

      • zx74125800

        Missed the point completely, we are closing in on true equality, XXs can behave like swine just like XYs. We are equal, XXs maybe horrified, but it maybe coming true. That is the point. The only difference, no gay women hit on barbie walking, some gay men hit on ken. Very funny.

        • fiona64

          The only difference, no gay women hit on barbie walking, some gay men hit on ken. Very funny.

          Men are socialized to believe that others are public property upon whom they are permitted to comment at will. It doesn’t matter what gender the target is. Sociologist Harvey Moloch has been studying this for *decades,* and has *yet* to find a female street harasser.

          YOU are the one who missed the point. Street harassment is not complimentary; if you think it is, you need to re-think your game.

        • A. T.

          How about people try to behave less like swine?

    • fiona64

      Oh, and pookie? It’s fake. It’s satire. And it’s not funny.

  • Lauren Mullen

    this is dumb . . . you don’t believe that there are any good guys, so what’s the point? nothing they do will be good enough for you, so it doesn’t matter. additionally, why SHOULD they endeavor not to be a “human scab”? Why can’t they do what feels good for them? If you come at the world from a place of moral relativism, where everyone should be allowed to do what they want when they want and how they want it, then you don’t really have a strong basis to tell people what they should or should not do.

    • Shan

      No, the author enjoined men to do this precisely BECAUSE they’re not human scabs. Women who are not human scabs can do it, too.

      • Lauren Mullen

        but why should they not be human scabs? What’s the moral impetus? Doesn’t that go against the postmodern rule that everyone should be able to do whatever they want as long as it makes them feel good?

        • Arekushieru

          Tell me what reality you’re living in, please. So I can avoid it. Cause, y’know, whatever makes these human scabs feels good generally makes everyone else NEVER feel good, unless we do what you say and do whatever makes US feel good, which eventually, actually, makes everyone ELSE feel good. You’re the one with the HUGE contradiction as we can see.

          • Lauren Mullen

            If doing what feels good to you makes someone else feel bad, how is that wrong? If morality is subjective, then even if what is right for you is wrong for another, it doesn’t matter because there is no objective morality to base good and evil by.

          • Arekushieru

            Um, the point went completely over your head, didn’t it? I was not referring to the cause, but the effect. Now, with that in mind, perhaps you can go back and re-read and actually address my point.

            Besides, I have never heard anyone, except MRAs, such as yourself, and anti-choicers claim that morality is PERSONALLY subjective. After all, they certainly don’t apply even their personal morality consistently, unlike Pro-Choicers and feminists. TBSVFS.

          • fiona64

            If doing what feels good to you makes someone else feel bad, how is that wrong?

            I … wow.

            It looks like we have a full-on sociopath here.

        • A. T.

          We have a lovely human being here. <3

          • Shan

            Yeah, I can’t even…

          • Lauren Mullen

            thanks sweet pea ;)

    • fiona64

      Looks like another member of the MRA ladies’ auxiliary has sohwn up …

    • lady_black

      I know for a fact there are good guys. I’m married to one. And you’re correct. Nothing from nothing leaves nothing. The human scabs do nothing for me so nothing will never be good enough. I frankly don’t care about their good feelings. I’m demanding to be treated like a human being. And if you threaten me, I’m going to hurt you.

  • aleksthegreat

    No one is going to make the Internet “safe” for you. Stop blanket blaming men then demanding they fix shit that can’t be fixed.

    • Arekushieru

      Oh, so the ones that make the internet UNsafe aren’t the ones who can fix the shit? Wow, didn’t know that. Also, don’t read very well. No one is ‘blanket blaming men’. However, YOU are blanket blaming women. Figures. Self-projection much?

  • aleksthegreat

    I don’t even understand this mentality. Expecting society at large to fix your bad experience on the internet. Statistically violence has diminished over the years and children are the safest they’ve ever been contrary to “all men are pedophiles” narrative. You’re ruining your own lives and the lives of your kids with rampant fear culture.

    • catseye

      This bozo IS _NOT_ ajaxthegreat, who is our ally. The screen handle ALMOST but not quite qualifies as a namejack.

      • aleksthegreat

        Um, no.

        • catseye

          You’re not fooling anybody. MRA’s are not welcome on this site.

    • Shan

      “I don’t even understand this mentality.”

      That’s because you’re ascribing a “mentality” to an issue you patently don’t understand. As evidenced by your references to pedophilia. And your victim blaming.

      Pft.

    • A. T.

      It’s simple. Sometimes men or women listen to people in their peer group ‘dude/girl, that’s stupid. Don’t.’

  • Guest

    Luv it being bigoted fucks try to lecture others about their behavior.

    Oh, and if someone threatens you online, that’s a crime. Report it to the authorities, don’t just bitch about it on Twitter.

    • Shan

      Is reporting online threats to the authorities more useful than bitching about it on Twitter?

      • nm

        it’s not. when i was young i got a random death thread online (i don’t even remember over what), and my mom freaked and called the cops. they came over, wrote some shit down, and left.

        JUSTICE.

        • Shan

          Yeah, I got stalked IRL when I was 19 and wearing an employer-issued name-tag that had both my first AND last name on it. The dude tracked me to my house and when I contacted the police, they told me they couldn’t do anything until and unless he actually assaulted me or something. Um, so what’s the point here?

          • fiona64

            I had a similar thing happen to me after I broke up with a nutter. A cop friend of mine served the PPO, but told me straight up that until it was violated, a restraining order was just a piece of paper.

    • Arekushieru

      Luv it. A bigoted fuck is telling us what bigoted fucks we are. Also, you didn’t read the article if you think it’s that easy to report online harassment. Sorry. Make that a LAZY, ILLITERATE bigoted fuck.

      • fiona64

        I love it when the angry dudebros come out of the woodwork to prove the author of the piece correct …

    • A. T.

      lolol! The authorities will be right on that. Yep.

  • http://www.soldoutactivist.com/ Sold Out Activist

    No.

    • Shan

      Well, that was articulate and well-argued.

  • cookipuss

    No. Not my problem. Whose problem is the author’s undercurrent of hatred for white men? Not mine.

    • Shan

      “the author’s undercurrent of hatred for white men”

      Where did you get that? And what makes you think it was an UNDERcurrent?

    • Arekushieru

      Hatred of white men is now women who are anti-bigoted and want the people behind the creation of bigotry, such as yourself, to help in making changes? Wow, you ARE a bigot and LAZY and irresponsible at that. Colour me UNsurprised.

    • A. T.

      The poor, abused white man. ._.

      • fiona64

        I know. It’s so hard sitting at the top of the privilege ladder …

        • Unicorn Farm

          The more it shakes the louder they wail and the more scared they get.

  • Tim Wickenheiser

    Andrea Grimes you are delusional and you’re writing is seething with anti-male bigotry. Maybe you should tell radical feminist to stop harassing and doxxing people and sending bomb/death threats before you point your finger at any other group, Otherwise your are just besing a giant hypocrite trying to justify your bloated self victimizing complex.

    PS. If you did any reasearch you would find out that Males are trolled more often then women and recieve far more threats of violence. Also why do you assume all internet trolls are male ? could it be because you are sexist ?

    • A. T.

      self-victimizing complex? lol.

    • fiona64

      If you did any reasearch you would find out that Males are trolled more
      often then women and recieve far more threats of violence

      Nice story, bro.

      http://www.pewinternet.org/2014/10/22/online-harassment/

      What the study found was that while men were *slightly* more likely to be called names on-line, women were *significantly* more likely to be victims of sexual harassment and stalking.

      • Tim Wickenheiser

        That link says men recieved signifgantly more death threats and threats of violence but women recieve more sexual comments including rape threats but alsos things like “I wanna bang you”. So you are claiming any sexual comment to a women is more important ten a death threat to a man ? and you’re sure you’re not a bigot ? I feel men and women recieve different but equal amounts of harassment on the internet. You and others like you are trying to turn a human issue into a womens issue so you can milk it for money and create new marxist laws to censor the internet and destroy free speech so you can “Protect women”

        I Call BULLSHIT !!

        • fiona64

          Not nearly histrionic enough; you’ll have to try harder in future.

  • Tim Wickenheiser

    Here’s are question , when was the last time you women told other women not to harass men or abuse men ? yeah I though so , you have to pratice what you preach.

    • A. T.

      In my DV training last Wednesday, thanks for asking. I also do it on twitter when talking about domestic violence and noting that women also abuse. Spare me the crap.

      • Tim Wickenheiser

        Then you are the rare execption in our society.

    • Arekushieru

      Gee, I dunno, when was the last time mainstream media treated abuse of men as okay or fine? Never? Yeah, thought not. Which is, kinda, y’know… the whole POINT of the article. Obviously obtuse MRA is still OBVIOUSLY obtuse.

      • Tim Wickenheiser

        The media treats the abuse of men as a joke all the time , for instance on the show “The talk ” the pannel joked and laughed for about 10 minutes about that man who’s penis was cut off by his wife for asking for a divorce, while the audience shouted ” that will teach him ” and “you go girl !!”. Now imagine what would happen if any mens show did the same about a woman who was mutialted by her husband for asking for a divorce ?

    • fiona64

      Harvey Moloch, of NYU’s sociology department, has been studying street harassment for more than a decade. And do you know what he discovered?

      Not *one* female street harasser. None. Zero. Zip.

      Street harassers are always male, regardless of the gender of their target.

      Didn’t know that? Yeah, I thought not.

      No one here has said that abuse of or by either gender is acceptable, dudebro. Except, of course, for your fellow travelers who appear to think that “Dayum!” and “Hey Mami!” are compliments …

      • Tim Wickenheiser

        Thats bullshit I myself have been cat called by several large black women in my life . One even yelled ” Come here honey I need me some white sugar ! ” and then began to rub her neither reigon suggestively.

        • fiona64

          Of course; one should totally disregard more than a decade of research by a respected sociologist in exchange for an anecdote of something that allegedly happened to some dude on the internet.

          You forgot to start the story with “I never thought this would happen to me, but …” and sign it “Name Withheld Upon Request.”

          • Tim Wickenheiser

            A sociologist is still a human and humans can make mistakes. Since it has happened to me I me sure it has happened to other men too. The difference is men don’t usually mention it we just ignore it , I only brought it up now to show you the error of your assumptions. Just because men don’t talk about something doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

  • terrifictm

    The whole premise of this article is bogus. It’s not every other man’s job to shame a man whom a woman thinks is misbehaving. Men don’t shame other men. They threaten. But they only threaten another male to protect what is theirs, i.e. their woman. If that’s not you, you are out of luck. Buy yourself a gun and learn to protect yourself.

    Oh, wait! You can’t. You used your vote to make guns illegal and now the only guy with a gun is the guy who wants to rape and kill you. Too bad. You really should have thought through is whole gun control thing.

    • fiona64

      Buy yourself a gun and learn to protect yourself.

      Don’t be surprised when you’re shot after harassing a woman on the street.

      No love, a liberal, pro-choice, feminist gun owner with a dead-eye aim.

  • terrifictm

    Perhaps what you need is a man to protect you. Oh wait! A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle. Given the success of feminism, the protection of women by men is no longer guaranteed, nor should it be expected. You are not entitled to it by some natural right. You are not entitled to anything belonging to a man except that which you can negotiate in trade – or steal from him through the abuse of the courts, but only if he was first stupid enough to marry you.

    As men have always known, the world is a dangerous place, which is why smart women will always be attracted to and choose to join themselves to a strong man over a weak one, even if the weak one makes more money. They understand the value he brings to the negotiating table called “our relationship”.

    • fiona64

      So, why do you believe that you have the right to harass women on the street? I’m curious.

  • Steve Corner