More Proof That Police Kill Young Black Men Far More Than Anyone Else

RickShit4BrainzPerry

This is just another in a long line of things to blame on Obama.

A-nony-mouse

Back on August 21st, the DMN had this little nugget:

"Dallas police officers have shot 11 people so far this year. Three other times, officers fired and missed. One of the people shot was unarmed, and police say officers intervened to save others in two of the shootings."

So 10 of the 11 who were actually shot were armed. I would really like to know the numbers of armed versus unarmed people were shot by police officers in ProPublica's study.

ThePosterFormerlyKnownasPaul topcommenter

That settles it, the po-po will just need to start driving down the streets shooting white people at random until the numbers are evened up.

everlastingphelps topcommenter

Let's face the hard facts. Table 43a, Uniform Crime Reports, 2011.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-43

Total violent crime by black people: 157,384

Total crime by everyone else: 254,024

Total black population: 41.729M

Total not black population: 274.4M

Violent Crimes per 100K black people: 377

Violent Crimes per 100K not black people: 92

Black Murderers per 100K: 10

Not Black Murderers per 100K: 2

America's crime problem is a black crime problem. The burden of it is carried by black people, as victims of this crime, from the rippling effects of incarceration on the community, and from the burdens having the enforcement to mitigate it happening in their communities.

But in the end, it's a problem that can't be solved by enforcement. Enforcement can only contain and limit it. The problem can only be solved within the black community itself.

Ignoring this problem because of political correctness hurts its victims -- black people -- the most.

Threeboys

I'd like to see stats, of all races, armed versus unarmed police shooting victims.

Also, in the act of committing a crime versus not/unsure.

fromtexasbygod

Actually, young black men kill young black men far more than anyone else.

wcvemail

One interesting note from the news of D.C. police hassling an innocent black guy in a white neighborhood was that black cops treat black suspects even more harshly than do white cops. The writer, the white attorney lady who stood up for the black non-suspect, didn't cite a source, probably because that would be so hard to quantify outside anecdotal evidence. She did say explicitly, this is not purely white-on-black, rather, cops-on-civilians in general.

Given the recent egregiously twitchy fingers, I tend to agree.

OxbowIncident

Can we see the data on who actually shoots more people? Not robbery or other crimes that may or may not have a gun involved. But actual shootings and murders. Break it down to young asian males, young hispanic males, young black males, and young hispanic males. I would honestly like to know.

doublecheese

Everybody knows this. It would behoove young black males to stop doing things that lead to being shot by the police. First are foremost, stop committing crimes that attract police attention.

amuse2

According to the FBI the majority of firearm related homicides are committed by African American men despite the fact that they represent only 6% of the population. The issue is that the guys with guns ARE African American by a huge majority despite their minority status. The fact that police kill them more often makes a LOT of sense given this fact.

TheRuddSki topcommenter

Appears even black cops favor young black male targets, could it be a perception in the cop culture that YBM's are more likely to pose threat beyond their actual statistical representation in violent crime?

So, how do we train police to shoot proportional to crime statistics?

wcvemail

So long as this doesn't attract that one guy who copies, verbatim, lengthy crime reports over and over, there might be some good discussion.

holmantx topcommenter

Young black men need to examine why this is.

Catbird

Ok. I'll bite.

Maybe its a detail in the study that wasn't in this report but I would have to assume that deadly shootings of police officers by young black men far exceeds that of whites of the same age group.

Cop killer, yeah!

I got my black shirt on
I got my black gloves on
I got my ski mask on
This shit's been too long
I got my twelve gauge sawed off
I got my headlights turned off
I'm 'bout to bust some shots off
I'm 'bout to dust some cops off

RTGolden1 topcommenter

@ThePosterFormerlyKnownasPaul only white christian males.

the_dude47

@everlastingphelps oh you and your facts! they don't sway "some" people, they'll always look for some area they can try to exploit for the criminal crowd.

the headline was the first clue, as we all know that the most dangerous thing for a young black man is......another young black man- not the cops. nice try sky!

more importantly, what has our first black president done for the black community?

hilllbillle

@everlastingphelps if you grew up in a shitty place(how many poor black folk), or if you weren't taught any better
(how many poor black folks), or if, instead of school, you had to go to work (how many poor black folks), or if any number of other bad shit happened to your grandparents, leavin' your family buried in poverty so deep you grew up knowin' nothin' else(how many poor black folk)...with white folks givin' ya the 'please don't rob me' look...with the police leanin' on ya ever' dam time a coke box gits broke in(oops...dam dirty meskins...)....do ya think mebbe...with this shitty 'next to last place' start ya got in life...that a few of you dumb-axed micks...might 've tried to cut a few corners...to escape poverty...might've done somethin' you ain't too proud of...that mebbe you found a way to rationalise...weren't so bad....an' I tend to cuss the black person who acts like they ain't been free fer long...I'm low on patience with that....but bein' a dam dirty hippie...an' gittin' treated worse than a nxxxxx...has given me some need to try an' unnerstand...try an' wish the world an' society didn't treatr folks so shitty jist fer bein' their partic'lar version of ugly. it ain't all 'the black community's' fault. if society keeps treatin' them black folk like they're second class

dam dirty hippies....keepin' folks behind 'n broke in life makes'em desparate...some do stoopid shit....

RTGolden1 topcommenter

@everlastingphelps On the other hand, of 72 LE officers who suffered a felonious line of duty death, 43 were killed by white offenders and 29 by black offenders. No further breakdown (white-hispanic/non hisp, black-hispanic/non hisp) was provided.

Pretty sure it has no bearing on either the story or your comment; just felt like throwing something out there.

mavdog topcommenter

@everlastingphelps

As the statistics show, there is a crime problem that needs addressing.

I suggest to not look at the stats solely on a racial basis, as that doesn't tell the whole story.

The crime problem should be examined as a socioeconomic problem.

It is not possible to source the data, so this is a theory. If we could take the white stats and trend them for socioeconomic conditions, comparing the same socioeconomic classes of white offenders to black offenders, there's a high probability the delta between white and black crime per 100k would narrow considerably, possibly parallel each other.

fred.garvin.mp.713

Yes, I think as the report shows it's a cops of any race v. black civilians.

RTGolden1 topcommenter

@OxbowIncident As you can see, Oxbow, the answer to question is NO, you can't see that data. No crime data broken down by race is going to be unfiltered or unarguable. The numbers are, or can be, massaged in so many ways, to speak to so many different viewpoints, that they are useless.

Until we can see people as people, instead of races or ethnicities, we won't solve any of our racial or ethnic problems. The terminology, as useful as it once was for identifying the problems, has become a roadblock to solving the problems.

roo_ster

@OxbowIncident

The delta between black murderers and the rest of the population (when population proportion is taken into account) is between 8x to 40x, depending on which figures you are looking at. That tells me that the data is not always clean, but also that, holy shit, blacks commit many times more murders according to _anyone's_ numbers.

Also, there are problems with federal-level crime stats. They conflate hispanic with white offenders. Make on have to look at state level stats to suss out in better detail. White, black , other covers it for hte federales.

fred.garvin.mp.713

The report details how young black men are 3 to 4 times more likely to commit violent crimes, but not 21 times, which indicates the profiling by police is way out of line with reality.

This was, for example, the case in Feguson, where blacks were several times more likely to be stopped and searched for illegal drugs than whites, even though whites were more likely to actually have drugs in posession when stopped.

A friend of mine--top college student, zero history of trouble--was shot and killed by an undercover policeman in an unmarked car because the policeman was looking for a black make suspect, and the kid was doing nothing more than driving home from school. It's a reality, and this report confirms what we already know.

mavdog topcommenter

@amuse2 @fred.garvin.mp.713

White offenders commit 59.4% of violent crime

Black offenders commit 38.3% of violent crime.

the fact is the black offender is shot in much greater numbers to the percentage of the violent crimes committed.

the fact that police kill black offenders of violent crimes more often than white offenders of violent crimes makes NO sense when given these statistics.

fred.garvin.mp.713

Read the details of the report. Yes, black make suspects are more likely to commit violent crimes, but nowhere near the level in which they are profiled and killed.

Recently, a black male civilian was shot (thankfully he survived) when the police officer asked him to retrieve his license--and when the victim did EXACTLY as he was told, the officer shot him.

mavdog topcommenter

@holmantx

Police Departments need to examine why this is.

RTGolden1 topcommenter

@Catbird Answered up above. Whites outperform blacks when it comes to killing cops. Next.

fred.garvin.mp.713

No snark here, I think, but instead of assuming that, why not look up the stat to confirm or deny?

mavdog topcommenter

@Catbird

so you are saying the stats are a reult of the police not liking the music these victims might be listening to?

holmantx topcommenter

@Catbird

When you put those lyrics to the Dr Strangelove finale, it really works for me.

TexMarine

@RTGolden1 it just means whites are more proficient marksmen.

dallas_dude

@mavdog @everlastingphelps Typical liberal BS. Lets burry our heads in the sand so as to not have to ask really hard questions that might offend somebody.

This is like acting that the overwhelming majority of terrorist are muslims or the overwhelming number of aids persons are gay.

This is called facing the facts.

everlastingphelps topcommenter

@mavdog @everlastingphelps Even when you control for economic factors, we still have a black crime problem. Poor whites and poor hispanics don't commit crime at the same rates as poor blacks.

It's cultural, and we can't do anything about it until we admit it.

wcvemail

@fred.garvin.mp.713

And for the record, the two D.C. cops were also black. They were on the wrong block completely, and had already gone to a wrong house on that wrong block before focusing on the black handyman.

OxbowIncident

@RTGolden1 @OxbowIncident Numbers are data. They are there to be interoperated to understand part of a big picture. When you say, "Until we can see people as people.." I have no idea what you mean. I don't see some people as marmosets but I do see people of different races. In fact the government does too. At least according to census and other forms I have filled out.

everlastingphelps topcommenter

@fred.garvin.mp.713 Right. But that's a result of the crime nexus being in black communities. SInce that is where the crime is, that is where most of the cops have to be.

Whenever you have more cops closer together, you have more police shootings. If the crime goes away, the cops spread out, and the police shooting rate goes down.

wcvemail

@fred.garvin.mp.713

That chilling story immediately brought to mind a scene from "The Hurricane" The car in which Carter (Denzel Washington) was riding was stopped by a white cop, who announced, "We're looking for a black male."

Carter replied, "Any black male will do?"

fred.garvin.mp.713

It's easy to get bogged down in stats, but black makes are only around 6% of the general population, so they are over-represented as perpetrarors of violent crime. Nevertheless, the rate of cops shooting black males is many times over even that higher rate.

holmantx topcommenter

@mavdog @holmantx

This phenomenon/stat is one of the most "examined" issues ever looked at.

You just don't like the self-evident reasons.

Do you think Chief Brown might possess the necessary motivation to have an informed opinion on this subject? He's a big stat guy and his son was shot and killed by DeSoto police. And he looks black to me. So ask him.

What do you conclude is the problem?

Racism?

Are the crime stats a result of too much policing activity, or the other way around? Are the cops in the high crime neighborhoods because of the high crime rates, or are the neighborhoods high crime because the cops are there in greater numbers?

As Gil Scot Heron sang in the 80s, "Every body's gotta pistol, I lay you nine to five he's walkin' with steel".

mavdog topcommenter

@everlastingphelps

I agree that there is a crime problem, and there is a greater problem in the black community than the white community.

we cannot rule out the economic factor. there is too great an economic divergence in the white and black communities to rule it out as a prime component.

RTGolden1 topcommenter

@OxbowIncident @RTGolden1 My point is that the argument from both sides is that the lopsided killing of blacks by police comes from a racial bias. One side argues that cops like to kill blacks more than whites and the other side argues that blacks like to commit crime more than whites. The same numbers from the same source are used to justify both arguments.

I do not claim to be immune to racial bias in my thinking and my world view. i do try to recognize it and keep it in the forefront of my mind, and try to think around it. The problem here is much more than simple white or black, rich or poor. The crime rate among blacks is not simply a problem of black culture, it is a problem of American culture. If we can't look at it that way, we'll never solve it.

roo_ster

@OxbowIncident @RTGolden1

My suggestion is to spend some time diving into the FBI/BJS stats, state-level stats, the stats from reports given by crime victims.

There is a lot to learn and it is by no means a useless endeavor. It will make you better informed as well as a better consumer of statistical data in general. Especially if you look at the methodologies used to collect some of the stats.

The thing is, what you will learn will not coincide with The Narrative pushed by most the media and many policritters.

wcvemail

@everlastingphelps @fred.garvin.mp.713

Reasonable explanation up to the point where it's 21X more frequent. That's where the stats break down, as Fred pointed out. Three, four, even five times more frequent? Yes. 21 time more frequent? No.

mavdog topcommenter

@holmantx

It would be beneficial to hear what Chief Brown's viewpoint is on the issue.

I would surmise the problem is racial stereotyping, IOW the police assume the person will be violent so they are "trigger happy".

roo_ster

@mavdog @everlastingphelps

Yep, there is an economic component. Thing is, is it causal? Or merely a result of a set of behaviors, values, and attitudes & such that also result in greater rates of criminality?

everlastingphelps topcommenter

@mavdog @everlastingphelps Set aside white people. Look at the hispanic community. Comparable economic levels, comparable numbers. Far less violent crime.

TheCredibleHulk topcommenter

@wcvemail @everlastingphelps @fred.garvin.mp.713

If we've learned anything here, it's that cops are terrible at math.

RTGolden1 topcommenter

@mavdog @holmantx What is interesting to me is the hypocrisy about profiling. When a child goes missing, the common profile is middle aged white male, and that is what law enforcement is looking for. Everyone seems to agree, in these cases, profiling makes a lot of sense.

But for any crime that the statistical profile comes out to be anything other than white male, profiling is suddenly racist.

Profiling works and is an extremely useful law enforcement tool. It is a unique feature of American culture that dictates we eliminate useful tools for building a progressive society that values law and order to avoid offending someone's idiot sensitivities.

holmantx topcommenter

@mavdog @holmantx

The police officer died from his gunshot wounds, after returning fire and killing Brown.

Is your surmise supported by police shooting incidents of unarmed black men unjustifiably killing them or are you merely expressing a bias?

fred.garvin.mp.713

It's definitely part of the legacy of racism. I view it as part of a long, long terrible relationship. Cops of any race are more likely to shoot black suspects.

But let's say you're a law-abiding black man, and you get pulled over or are frisked while walkkmh to work/school, as was happening under NYC's aggressive policies. You might be a little pissed after a few times, and that increases the tension, thus increasing the chance of violence. It's a historical relationship that builds on itself.

I believe that was a factor in my friend's death. Also, I've never been exiting a store and had a group of cops with guns drawn asking me to put my hands up, because they are looking for a white male, any white male, yet that has happened to uh, my less white friends.